"then its version dependent (he is using a different base rom then me) unless its an option in "suite tools" (which is just j4n87 and monarx code by another name  )
if it was a simple fix id implement it (or would have already), i doubt he actually *fixed* anything to make that work...probably just works as is
id like to clear something up now before i put it to bed as well: very few people are ultimately responsible for the vast majority of things that work in sense4 on this phone...chrisch and the virtuous team deserve the lion's share of the credit for things like: m10 resizing, full button backlight fix (well original one, there are other vivo/w ones now), and many .35 kernel related fixes no longer needed...and myself (this isnt an "ego" thing...its just reality)
people can say they dont/havent taken anything from my roms specifically, but so many fixes that arise in other roms are taking bins/libs/mods from ---...beyond compare :good:
i have read stuff posted in *other* forums...i dont sit around f5 ing them, but i read them when stuff is pointed out to me...and i get shots taken at me indirectly or otherwise for just asking one thing: that people properly credit where they get stuff from...as this is a huge issue in the android world, that many refuse to follow"
I'd like to provide an opinion on this post (won't say the thread or dev, but you know who you are)... If this seems out of line or inappropriate, then by all means have it deleted...
[Rant]
Lately I see this kind of talk more and more in the community... Android has been around for some time now, so there's bound to be occasional reuse if mods/hacks implemented elsewhere... sometimes the original creator of said mods has gotten lost over the years... But, when I hear devs gripe that someone used "their" lib or soneone copied their "jar" file, I can't help but think of Apple... Google owns the source, devs modified it. The mod itself doesn't constitute ownership of the file... Xda is supposed to be a community built on sharing sources to enhance growth. Some devs are definately more knowledgeable than others, but that doesnt mean that other "less skilled" developers don't contribute.
This isnt a shot at anyone, just saying we all need to learn to share the toys and help those less developed to grow with the community... Taking these "ownership" stances and "Apple" tactics doesn't justify the means to that end...
Nuff said...
[/Rant]
Sent from my HTC Incredible 2
This is a very good point, but also keep in mind there are a lot of people who take something from another ROM that was made by someone who slaved over it and finally figured out a fix and then stick it their ROM and claim it an original fix. Credit is more of showing respect than anything else. No one benefits from this stuff other than the end user. But don't do stuff to make the devs wanna leave and leave us in the dust.
Sent from my KangBang'd out vivow
you clearly missed my point
its not the ownership and usage that is a problem, its properly crediting where you get stuff from
heres the simple fact: if you take a fix from someone else's rom, you credit where it came from..
how hard is this? i mean really
since your singling me out, ill single out eclipticsense or whatever its called now
for awhile during its updates, whenever something was fixed...there was never credit to who the fix came from
ie, lowveld fixed browser downloads for the sense 4.0 defined roms...i implemented it the fix from the desire s...hawk took the browser.apk from ukb and didnt say where it came from just mentioned that it was fixed
etiquette dictates you go: *credit to lowveld for browser download fix (in your op)
and the vast majority of the tweaks implemented recently in that rom came from just take the methods from ukb and changing "tweaks" to "suite_tools" in the defintion
in some cases it was just taking apks from ukb and changing that line...like taking the mms.apk from ukb and actually having duplicate methods in the smali (tweaks and suite tools lol)
but was there credit to either pkmn/venom for the code i implemented? no....was there credit to me for porting it in (and in many cases modding it to work right)? no
virtuous team wasnt even mentioned in the credits over there until recently, despite all the things they fixed prior to m10 resizing
if that rom had been released on xda or rootzwiki with the op in the shape its in, it would have been reported and closed quickly...but since its on its own site, that can exist
i had no problem with sharing stuff w/ hawk...and in fact never said no when he asked to use something for months, whether it was lockscreens/fusion/etc...all i asked (about 20 times) was that he properly credit where he was taking stuff from, and time after time he didnt...i did find it amusing to diff his updates vs ukb updates and see that 90% of changed bins/libs/files came from ukb, but w/e
the tweaks implementation was the last straw and i was finally done
if you dont site work on a term paper/essay/research paper you are in a world of trouble....think of a rom that way
That's absolutely correct. the person's hard work need to be recognized, Stealing is not good...
mentioning where it came from gives some more push to that person and he will be more productive .
Nik, you ROM Rocks, but I am not able to use it with CDMA UIM card in India, as it doesnt detect the my RUIM(CDMA SIM).
nitsuj17 said:
you clearly missed my point
its not the ownership and usage that is a problem, its properly crediting where you get stuff from
heres the simple fact: if you take a fix from someone else's rom, you credit where it came from..
how hard is this? i mean really
since your singling me out, ill single out eclipticsense or whatever its called now
for awhile during its updates, whenever something was fixed...there was never credit to who the fix came from
ie, lowveld fixed browser downloads for the sense 4.0 defined roms...i implemented it the fix from the desire s...hawk took the browser.apk from ukb and didnt say where it came from just mentioned that it was fixed
etiquette dictates you go: *credit to lowveld for browser download fix (in your op)
and the vast majority of the tweaks implemented recently in that rom came from just take the methods from ukb and changing "tweaks" to "suite_tools" in the defintion
in some cases it was just taking apks from ukb and changing that line...like taking the mms.apk from ukb and actually having duplicate methods in the smali (tweaks and suite tools lol)
but was there credit to either pkmn/venom for the code i implemented? no....was there credit to me for porting it in (and in many cases modding it to work right)? no
virtuous team wasnt even mentioned in the credits over there until recently, despite all the things they fixed prior to m10 resizing
if that rom had been released on xda or rootzwiki with the op in the shape its in, it would have been reported and closed quickly...but since its on its own site, that can exist
i had no problem with sharing stuff w/ hawk...and in fact never said no when he asked to use something for months, whether it was lockscreens/fusion/etc...all i asked (about 20 times) was that he properly credit where he was taking stuff from, and time after time he didnt...i did find it amusing to diff his updates vs ukb updates and see that 90% of changed bins/libs/files came from ukb, but w/e
the tweaks implementation was the last straw and i was finally done
if you dont site work on a term paper/essay/research paper you are in a world of trouble....think of a rom that way
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Clearly my point is being missed here as well... And, btw, if there are things in eclipse from ukb without any credits given, send me a list in pm and I'll update the op...
The trend lately, and I know everyones seen this, is "this mod is mine, dont use my stuff without permission". Which is totally fine up to the point when the dev tells you no for permissions. Exclusivity is causing more harm than good here.
IMHO, if It's posted here, anyone should have the right to use it (as long as It's credited). Not saying don't ask first, that's a matter of respect, just saying devs need to stop with the selfish behaviour. For most newbies, a no just gives an excuse to pirate the work and make small changes to call it theirs... By opening up and sharing such things, gives newbies the opportunity to grow a contribute more. Most, if not all, of us are here to learn, play and contribute. Those who hog the sandbox push others out who might otherwise would have made bigger and better contributions... It starts with devs stopping the "that's my jar" attitude and maybe wording it differently... Saying yes more and adapting a sharing attitude is much more productive!
Sent from my HTC Incredible 2 using xda premium
if you dont site work on a term paper/essay/research paper you are in a world of trouble....think of a rom that way
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pla·gia·rism [pley-juh-riz-uhm, -jee-uh-riz-] Show IPA
noun
1.
an act or instance of using or closely imitating the language and thoughts of another author without authorization and the representation of that author's work as one's own, as by not crediting the original author: It is said that he plagiarized Thoreau's plagiarism of a line written by Montaigne. Synonyms: appropriation, infringement, piracy, counterfeiting; theft, borrowing, cribbing, passing off.
2.
a piece of writing or other work reflecting such unauthorized use or imitation: “These two manuscripts are clearly plagiarisms,” the editor said, tossing them angrily on the floor. (Taken from dictionary.com)
See how easily I credited the site I used?
Plagiarism is looked at as a crime in the college and professional world. Most colleges will kick you right out of school if they catch you plagiarizing. It really is a big deal and it sticks with you through out your life. All schools will see what you did and probably won't accept you after that happens.
I hated citing work as a student but once you learn the proper way to do it, it is very easy and takes no time at all. I'm no dev. but I can understand how other devs would be mad to see their work being used without being properly credited. It's really about respect towards the other dev to give them their credit for whatever it is they helped fix. In my opinion using someone elses work as your own not only makes you look foolish, but it is a total smack in the face to the dev that found the "fix".
That type of stuff would not fly in the professional world because no big name company wants their name tarnished because someone under their belt couldn't properly cite or do the work they initially thought they could do. Even if the dev is very talented, getting caught plagiarizing one simple thing could make them look like a fraud.
Again, I'm no dev but I 100% agree with Nit on this. Maybe one day when someone steals your work and uses it as their own you might change you stance on this.
Macrodroid said:
Clearly my point is being missed here as well... And, btw, if there are things in eclipse from ukb without any credits given, send me a list in pm and I'll update the op...
The trend lately, and I know everyones seen this, is "this mod is mine, dont use my stuff without permission". Which is totally fine up to the point when the dev tells you no for permissions. Exclusivity is causing more harm than good here.
IMHO, if It's posted here, anyone should have the right to use it (as long as It's credited). Not saying don't ask first, that's a matter of respect, just saying devs need to stop with the selfish behaviour. For most newbies, a no just gives an excuse to pirate the work and make small changes to call it theirs... By opening up and sharing such things, gives newbies the opportunity to grow a contribute more. Most, if not all, of us are here to learn, play and contribute. Those who hog the sandbox push others out who might otherwise would have made bigger and better contributions... It starts with devs stopping the "that's my jar" attitude and maybe wording it differently... Saying yes more and adapting a sharing attitude is much more productive!
Sent from my HTC Incredible 2 using xda premium
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the vast majority of what i release im fine with other people using, in parts (obviously changing one thing and rereleasing a rom isnt kosher) as long as credit is properly given
as for the use of other's work in general, if i a dev or group has their own policy on sharing then its up to them ultimately
im associated with team venom for porting viper rom, but by no means i am in charge of anything...j4n87 and monarx are the brains behind the tweaks/code/etc and ultimately set things the way they are...
for a long time when the two of them were doing leedroid tweaks they had an open sharing policy: pm them and ask (they always said yes), dont change the credits in the gui app, and then wait a week after release before using/including them in other's roms
however, no one seemed to respect that (or many didnt) and changed the credits in the app, didnt link back to the original, didnt wait a week, or never bothered to pm them....often citing the execuse "roman didnt care when he originally made tweaks"...which wasnt really true since roman had a 2 week waiting period on using his tweaks after he released it, and actually pulled the source from github after awhile cuz he was getting pissed that everyone was using it at will the next day
i think a time frame exclusivity is more than fair in regards to sharing, but if that can't be respected by multiple individuals....then the current situation w/ team venom's sharing policy happens
and at this point i guess i no longer really care if eclipticsense's credits are updated properly...its on its own site and i no longer have anything to do w/ hawk....they should have been from the beginning or at any point it was brought up, and thats that
Related
I have noticed very poor community spirit amond many man cooks on XDA. For me, a community is about helping each other, and improving each others accomplishments. Many times, when even just trying to extract some manila files from a rom, or even decompilng a carrier rom, it just doesnt work. I presume this is because some cooks around here believe they are gods gift to this board (not community) because they lock roms. I can understand if you lock a program youi custom build, some low level mods, etc, but come on, a carrier rom.
I wanna thanks those who dont partake in this childish acts. If parts are used, then yeah of course the original cook deserves credit, and shall always be given credit. But people always ask why I dont post my roms here, this is why.
A similar topic has already been discussed here
ghettofreeryder said:
I have noticed very poor community spirit amond many man cooks on XDA. For me, a community is about helping each other, and improving each others accomplishments. Many times, when even just trying to extract some manila files from a rom, or even decompilng a carrier rom, it just doesnt work. I presume this is because some cooks around here believe they are gods gift to this board (not community) because they lock roms. I can understand if you lock a program youi custom build, some low level mods, etc, but come on, a carrier rom.
I wanna thanks those who dont partake in this childish acts. If parts are used, then yeah of course the original cook deserves credit, and shall always be given credit. But people always ask why I dont post my roms here, this is why.
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Totally agree, and well said Ghetto!
You'll always find my ROMs unlocked.
Juicy47 said:
Totally agree, and well said Ghetto!
You'll always find my ROMs unlocked.
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I agree as well.
I can see it from the cooks point of view in some cases... but common, you know how hard getting a sys and os can be if every rom you find that you may be able to get it from is locked. Getting the HTC rom updates are hard to find third party, and require a gsm handset serial number to download from htc.... which some of us dont have. so, i know my self have had difficulties finding stuff that i used to once be able to find very easily. Im usually pretty quiet here im not here to steal any ones glory some times all we want is a package or a newer camera app ect...
It is all about EGOs. I do not cook but am a software designer for a few decades.
If I went into ROM cooking and somebody took my ROM, added a few things- generally improved it and posted it under his/her name- fair play to them. It would be ideal if they added credits.
I can learn from the successfully modded ROMs some new tricks. If they locked the pimped up code, I would go furious since this is not on the equal terms.
Both things i.e. the credits and locking of ROMs can be dealt with by the moderators of this server but there is either a very little will to do so or the perceived benefits of this approach are too low to outweigh the risks (i.e. developers abandoning this forum)
Strangely most people here would be vivid advocates of the Open Source model yet the first thing which gets promoted is a closed source approach.
I personally believe that it would be a bit of pain to get the unlocked ROM requirement going plus would need more work on the policing side but in the long run it would benefit us all.
You guys make problems out of nothing.
THERE ARE a lot of open roms.
So ok. BUt now there is a cook that wants to present his locked rom.
Why not let him if he wants? Let them choose themselves. JUst don't download it, if its not good for you then leave it instead of continously making points in these topics.
What you will find is that the ROM is undumpable because the rgu and dsm files have been erased and compressed into a single package, thus removing around 200 files from the \Windows directory on your device, less files in \Windows means a faster responce from the file system.
Notice how accessing \Windows takes a longer time than other folders?
Most of the time this is the reason behind removing those files...not to protect a ROM, however we all know there are a minority of users who will palm stuff off as thier own creation which is detremental to the people who do the real work...sure if somebody wants help then they will get it from the majority.....its not about EGO at all.
Do you think olipro charges for his unlocker because of EGO? NO! Its because hes protecting his interests and also deserves recognition for his countless hours of hard work.
They spend their own valuable time making the ROMs so they can do as they please, it's your choice whether or not you install it.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I know only two chefs here in the Diamond section protect their ROMs. The chefs who leave their ROMs open are in clear majority.
So, the community spirit seems pretty good to me.
His ROMs are locked, mine are open. Great spirit.
I don't cook roms, but as a linux user I care about Open Source and alike. So I'll post my meaningless 2 cents
Seems like senior members are for locked roms and charging for services, while members and junior members stand on the other side?
For the normal rom user, it doesn't really matter if the rom is locked or not, as long as roms are released. In my opinion though, releasing the roms under a GPL(-ish?) licence would make sure the original cook get the credits. Giving other cooks the possibility to look under the hood on your room, can in fact make it a better rom.
Do you think olipro charges for his unlocker because of EGO? NO! Its because hes protecting his interests and also deserves recognition for his countless hours of hard work
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Now this, I strongly disagree on. IMO he would get much more respect if he shared his knowledge freely. There are countless examples of that in the world of GNU/Linux.
I think most ppl using XDA forums expect it to work like a open source community, and when they find out the cooks are protecting their roms and charging for services, they get a dissapointed, and need to whine a little.
Bottom line is, the cooks are free to do whatever they want with their roms. You get to use them freely on your device. You are free to support the cooks you want, so if you don't like locked roms etc...then use a rom from a cook that doesn't lock it.
His ROMs are locked, mine are open. Great spirit.
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panosha just sh.. up and dont make me talk here. your only a repacker and stealer. swtos will confirm this. im also a cooker who had the idea leaving cooked roms unlocked. but after seeing people like panosha repack things call it shine on and release it as a own work i lost that philosophie very fast.
his greek roms are partly all stolen by swtos.
my 2 cent
greetings go out to the real cookers like dutty swift swtos and others...
alphazero said:
panosha just sh.. up and dont make me talk here. your only a repacker and stealer. swtos will confirm this. im also a cooker who had the idea leaving cooked roms unlocked. but after seeing people like panosha repack things call it shine on and release it as a own work i lost that philosophie very fast.
his greek roms are partly all stolen by swtos.
my 2 cent
greetings go out to the real cookers like dutty swift swtos and others...
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Well, if you GPL'd it, and he broke the GPL, you could most likely ask the mods to remove his posts/account/rom from this and other forums.
Alpha, let it be then, why would you care anyway? However, to keep the honour to yourself, don't show PM's
About this Open Source Philosophy:
Open Source is fun and a way to get some work done for specific problems.
I am totally no fighter for Open Source when it comes to developping good applications. Good work needs to get PAYED. One needs to take their TIME to work on it to make it good. Time needs INCOME, one must eat too you know.
I am 100% confident that FREE software will never have the quality of commercial variants, just for that reason.
With Linux the OS is free, but the better distributions are commercial also, and in one or other way 'locked'. Just as with good roms here Only here, we do not have to pay for them. Yet.
Go Open Source, but don't go FREE. Trigger people to get best out of them. Reward them. And let them keep identity.
Riel said:
Alpha, let it be then, why would you care anyway? However, to keep the honour to yourself, don't show PM's
About this Open Source Philosophy:
Open Source is fun and a way to get some work done for specific problems.
I am totally no fighter for Open Source when it comes to developping good applications. Good work needs to get PAYED. One needs to take their TIME to work on it to make it good. Time needs INCOME, one must eat too you know.
I am 100% confident that FREE software will never have the quality of commercial variants, just for that reason.
With Linux the OS is free, but the better distributions are commercial also, and in one or other way 'locked'. Just as with good roms here Only here, we do not have to pay for them. Yet.
Go Open Source, but don't go FREE. Trigger people to get best out of them. Reward them. And let them keep identity.
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Click to collapse
Ok, lol! you have no idea have you. The BEST distros out there are free! Gentoo! Slack! Debian! C'mon dude
Anyways, yeah, Open Source != free per definition
Riel said:
Alpha, let it be then, why would you care anyway? However, to keep the honour to yourself, don't show PM's
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i would and will never show a private message i recieve here on public.
even if i could choose of hundreds =)
by the way panosha if you feel better i can tell you nearly every chef had that pm of me for wildberry.
Why do the moderators let Aplhazero persist with his insulting posts again and again totally unchecked?? Now he's making an as-yet unfounded allegation against another chef who from what I have seen is very helpful around here. Yet still nothing is done!
I find this bizzare considering Mods are so quick to react and stamp down on so called 'pointless' threads which are far less damaging imho.
Alpha needs to check his ego and stop treating people like they are beneath him.
i have a question, for the people who blame others for stealing and re-releasing under there own work..... how can you tell? i mean, if everything is as openly available as most of the guys seem to think it is. then couldn't they have just got all there stuff from the same source? or is it its not openly available, and the only place they could find it is your rom so you know they have stolen it? Stealing with the intent to take credit for some one elses hard work is not a good thing. but i do believe in sharing.
but if no one shares, that leaves little other options? as time goes by, it looks like things are slowly getting a little bit more closed, pretty soon nothing will be shared. and thats when i worry the community will take a crushing blow.
zaphyr said:
Well, if you GPL'd it, and he broke the GPL, you could most likely ask the mods to remove his posts/account/rom from this and other forums.
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you cant GPL something that was basted on stolen software i think.
the base os, sys, anything taken from an HTC rom is stolen. Microsoft doesn't just hand out new sys and os files. and HTC doesn't call us all up when a new oem package is out on a device.
thats just the point i dont get. it the guys who consider them selves real cooks stole it from some where els. why ware they worries about some one stealing a package from them. i can understand if some one took there rom and just changed the version on it and re released it but, that not the idea of most of us ere. and if you can prove some one is a thief expose him to his followers if you can prove it. proof is key to me before pointing the finger.
Cheerz
Nice to read this *****fight. Some are gentleman and some are not. @the end we are all thieves.
In light of what I considered to be a couple of very disturbing developments, I think at this point, a dialogue/debate needs to be opened on what rights/copyrights a contributor has on the intellectual material he/she posts here.
Sakajati was abruptly censored when he suggested that future roms may be administered through a tool bar and not administered through this site.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=3288089&postcount=10332
And the way that BeyondInvisible was driven off this site by the " takers " and not supported by this site. ( the people that stole his new pay/per icons and published them for free, should have been banned). http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=2798052#post2798052 because he dared suggest that it might be time for all the takers to pony up.
When your work becomes widely successful ala; olinex, jockyw, sakajati, MobileMatt, JCKOTZE, Schap, in the kaiser forums, at what point does toiling around in poverty while you work hard for others for free, become less attractive than selling your work?
Who now owns your work , you, XDA, is it copyrighted? When you decide to take it private what ownership rights does XDA retain?
If you request that XDA remove your work, can they leave an archive of it?
I love this site it is the greatest resource on the net for PDA's but I think these subjects could use a good going over by the Mods and the membership.
Dennis
Removing SJ's toolbar was NOT censorship, regardless of how you're trying to spin it. We received several complaints from users who don't feel comfortable being required to install a toolbar just to use their favorite ROM... ask any Mod, we all get the emails. The action I took (editing the toolbar links) is the most benign available to Moderators. I could have closed the thread, and moved it to a Mod-only section while the investigation/discussion took place. Instead, I opted to merely edit out the download links.
There is no justification for requiring users to install a toolbar into Internet Explorer (or any other browser in the Windows environment) just so they can have access to a Chef's ROMs.
Now while a decision has not yet been made, I can confidently say that if SJ had promoted his toolbar as a tool to help all users of his ROMs get the latest "breaking" new on development, and NOT required it in order to obtain the password required for flashing, then we [most likely] would have allowed the toolbar to stay linked on XDA.
I think part of the problem here is that many seem to think that they are entitled to what the chefs produce for nothing. The hours spent porting and testing should count for something but for many it is just expected. I for one have no problem contributing what I can when I'm able. It is too bad that more don't do this.
Kirby
Intellectual property laws protect the inventor/creator rights of ownership to their intellectual property in cyber media. So there is no fear but a concern for any coder that his or her work marketing could be abused or it could be stolen. That is the risk one takes without his or her choice when they share their creations with others.
I also read XDA rules, and it clearly states that soliciting anything for money is prohibited. many cooks are on the border line of asking for money rather encouraging donation for sharing the fruit of their work with others. I do not have a problem with that and believe the majority here share my sentiment. I have a problem however with someone begging for donation without any substantiating efforts, invention or creation to merit the donation solicitation. That being said, I believe SJ was a true gentleman in all of his posts and never infringed on callus donation request; having a tool bar that he feels if XDA was out ( and it was out few times in the past month) as an optional site but not alternative support site that can be accessed where members can help each other is not a bad idea.
We seem to forget sometimes that XDA site was created to help one developer another achieve excellence in the field of e-communication.
so again, I have no problem with SJ promoting his tool bar as long as it is not used to ransom donation for solving issues and i am sure like I said earlier, this is NOT SJ's intention.
NotATreoFan said:
Removing SJ's toolbar was NOT censorship, regardless of how you're trying to spin it. We received several complaints from users who don't feel comfortable being required to install a toolbar just to use their favorite ROM...
There is no justification for requiring users to install a toolbar into Internet Explorer (or any other browser in the Windows environment) just so they can have access to a Chef's ROMs.
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That was one of my major points, there " was " no requirement . because there " was no rom ". You struck preemptively to something that had not happened yet, because it might happen in the future. You squashed his right to promote a private project , as many many people do here, because a few ungrateful people complained that in the future they might have to obtain the rom it SJ's way.
Had he stated that the next rom would be available only by joining his website, would you have shut him down?
My question is, at what point does a chef have the right to take his work private, and how , without any interference from this site.
Believe me, I am not trying to "spin " anything against anyone, I have a great deal of respect for you and all you have done for this forum ( we miss your input in the Kaiser world ) I just thought that it was a heavy handed response ( and yes censorship ) to something that hadn't even happened yet.
A simple PM could have alieviated the situation for the time being, while the Mods figured it out. Not a head on erase everything, assault SJ's right to promote his work and wares.
And I would say again, that the integrity of this site depends on people to share openly and honestly without fear of unjustified reprisal, SJ has said that he will not for the time being, take any new roms private. I think that is enough for all his links to be restored. If not, what other definitions of censorship do you have ?
JimmyMcGee said:
Your opinion is respected. But the appearance was that he WAS requiring people to use the Toolbar to get the Password for the ROM.
Sakajati can do what ever he wants with his ROM, if he chooses to require the Toolbar, that's his choice. If XDA, the people who maintain and provide some presence for his ROM here say that's not in the spirit of the community, then he can release the ROMs on his website soley.
Basically you have to follow certain rules to post your stuff on SourceForge, so think of at as the same thing.
You seem to be the only one with a problem. sakajati is a great guy and is being cooperative in the investigation.
There is written law and common law. This falls more into to "Common Law" area, which is why I said it was a Grey area.
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I brought this over from the Hyperdragon thread to here, to discuss.
I just want everyone to know, this has more to do with the big picture than it has to do with sakajati. This has nothing to do with NATF or with jimmy and I am probably not the only one who has a problem with the way it was handled. I am just the one with the big mouth. And we all know that sakajati would never say a word or give anything less than his full cooperation.
I just want someone to tell me not just for SJ, but for the good of the whole community and as a precedent for future complaints of this type, why SJ couldn't have been shot a PM asking what his intentions were, and if they approached a grey area, he could have been informed and he would have cooperated. End of any problem. It is not like there was any urgency, as I said before, there was no requirement because there was no rom.
And if people did over react then it is good for everyone to get a dialogue started. That is what this site is all about.
Thanks guys for doing a great job !
denco7 said:
That was one of my major points, there " was " no requirement . because there " was no rom ". You struck preemptively to something that had not happened yet, because it might happen in the future. You squashed his right to promote a private project , as many many people do here, because a few ungrateful people complained that in the future they might have to obtain the rom it SJ's way.
Had he stated that the next rom would be available only by joining his website, would you have shut him down?
My question is, at what point does a chef have the right to take his work private, and how , without any interference from this site.
Believe me, I am not trying to "spin " anything against anyone, I have a great deal of respect for you and all you have done for this forum ( we miss your input in the Kaiser world ) I just thought that it was a heavy handed response ( and yes censorship ) to something that hadn't even happened yet.
A simple PM could have alieviated the situation for the time being, while the Mods figured it out. Not a head on erase everything, assault SJ's right to promote his work and wares.
And I would say again, that the integrity of this site depends on people to share openly and honestly without fear of unjustified reprisal, SJ has said that he will not for the time being, take any new roms private. I think that is enough for all his links to be restored. If not, what other definitions of censorship do you have ?
I brought this over from the Hyperdragon thread to here, to discuss.
I just want everyone to know, this has more to do with the big picture than it has to do with sakajati. This has nothing to do with NATF or with jimmy and I am probably not the only one who has a problem with the way it was handled. I am just the one with the big mouth. And we all know that sakajati would never say a word or give anything less than his full cooperation.
I just want someone to tell me not just for SJ, but for the good of the whole community and as a precedent for future complaints of this type, why SJ couldn't have been shot a PM asking what his intentions were, and if they approached a grey area, he could have been informed and he would have cooperated. End of any problem. It is not like there was any urgency, as I said before, there was no requirement because there was no rom.
And if people did over react then it is good for everyone to get a dialogue started. That is what this site is all about.
Thanks guys for doing a great job !
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My Friend read this...
sakajati said:
Just uploaded the cab to download center. It will add [Slide down for call functions] feature.
*** Please all of you install my toolbar [mod edit: link removed], this is the tool that will keep you updated and you will receive alert/message via the toolbar for news and announcements regularly from me. If you're using HyperDragon ROMs, you have to install it since the next rom release will be password protected and you'll get the password only via this toolbar . No adware, spyware, crapware, underware, read the Toolbar Privacy [mod edit: link removed]for details.***
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Read the Green Parts. The general consensus is IF sakajati REQUIRES people to use the Toolbar to use his ROMs, he is no longer contributing to the XDA ROM Community.
sakajati is ALLOWED and not censored to require this if he so chooses. However the ramifications are, that he would no longer be allowed to advertise his ROM here.
The "common law" rule is, if you post a ROM on XDA, you are contributing to the community and the ROM shall have NO STRINGS attached. No requirement to Give Money, no requirement to have a toolbar installed.
If sakajati wishes to offer his toolbar as a way to stay in "constant contact" with him, then I don't see a problem. But the release of the ROM shall not be contingent on the toolbar. At least not while it is advertised on XDA.
And P.S. lets not get into calling ROMs Intellectual Property, because honestly, ROMs are Microsoft's I.P. All chefs do is tweak, improve and skin ROMs. And I don't mean to take anything away from chefs awesome work by saying that. So saying sakajati's ROM is his I.P. is like saying you taking you Toyota Celica, painting it Pink with Green Racing strips and boring out the engine, makes that car your I.P.
But as NATF has said, no final desicsion has been made, I only type this reply to give full disclosure, to show that our intentions are not to censor.
Thanks.
JimmyMcGee said:
If sakajati wishes to offer his toolbar as a way to stay in "constant contact" with him, then I don't see a problem. But the release of the ROM shall not be contingent on the toolbar. At least not while it is advertised on XDA.
But as NATF has said, no final decision has been made, I only type this reply to give full disclosure, to show that our intentions are not to censor.
Thanks.
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Since this has all been put to rest, I just have some final thoughts and then I'll shut up.
It was never about XDA's/Mod's disapproval as to what he intended to do, you all are entrusted with the success and smooth running of this site and have every right to administer this site as you see fit, (as I have every right to question why ) And it was not really about SJ, he was just the vehicle of my overall concern about creative people leaving this site because of real and perceived ( do it our way or get out ) disagreements.
I guess I just wanted to know, if people decided to take their projects private,such as a new rom, would they still be welcome here to support older projects or develop new projects here ( that fell within XDA guildlines ) and while supporting their projects, could they in a subtle non-commercial way, direct people to private/financially enhancing projects.
And of course I still object to the way it was handled, that sort of, " we are taking it all down until we decide " way of doing it, is something that happens to noobs that don't know any better. Not to someone who has done as much for, and contributed so much to the Kaiser community as sakajati has done.
The Mods always preach, " if you have a dispute with another member, take it to PM, " Unfortunately this great advise wasn't followed, and I am glad that SJ was not offended by this and did not pack up his toys and go home ( like unfortunately other members have done )
And I am sorry if " I " have offended anyone, that was not my intention. I love this site and think that discussions like this benefit the longevity of this site. I am glad everything has been resolved and I will shut up and go away now
Oh yeah ........one more thing
And P.S. lets not get into calling ROMs Intellectual Property, because honestly, ROMs are Microsoft's I.P. All chefs do is tweak, improve and skin ROMs. And I don't mean to take anything away from chefs awesome work by saying that. So saying sakajati's ROM is his I.P. is like saying you taking you Toyota Celica, painting it Pink with Green Racing strips and boring out the engine, makes that car your I.P.
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Tell that to Chip Foose and Orange County Choppers. They take other people's parts, design and tweak and create masterpieces worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. Your telling me a Foose Design isn't intellectual property?
denco7 said:
The Mods always preach, " if you have a dispute with another member, take it to PM, " Unfortunately this great advise wasn't followed, and I am glad that SJ was not offended by this and did not pack up his toys and go home ( like unfortunately other members have done )
And I am sorry if " I " have offended anyone, that was not my intention. I love this site and think that discussions like this benefit the longevity of this site. I am glad everything has been resolved and I will shut up and go away now
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This is not an issue of personal disagreement, it is a violation of our rules of operation. When we see questionable activity, we will always take the action of stopping the activity, contacting the OP, and trying to resolve it quickly. I am sure SJ understands this as well as anyone here that it was nothing personal, and simply just S.O.P. around here. It's a lot easier to take down a problem for a couple days, and then let it back up with an apology than it is to remove it after we've debated.
As for you question about prior contributions, of course anyone is welcome to support anything that they have and continue to offer that is in compliance with our rules here. Nothing even stops a user from selling some stuff, and giving others away. It's just that they can't post the stuff they're selling here, just the donation ware.
IP
I have just a couple points. The Phoenix team has a separate website we use for tracking bugs and other discussion so we don't clutter up this site. However our intent is to foster creativity, open communication and cooperation among users and chefs which we hope results in better products for the users of this site. So don't always think a private website like ours or SJ's is a bad thing.
However, I would like to point out what was only stated one time in the thread--the guts of these roms are the ip of microsoft and htc. Now as chef's we find other bits and pieces that are added--and these are the ip of their creators. Sometimes we contribute our own ip--like skins, icons and very specific know how to get the roms to help our devices perform at peak efficiency. But anyone who would try to take a rom private and sell it, would have some major issues without first getting license to do so from MS, HTC and those other people who own the other intellectual property.
There are many examples of apps that were developed by talented people here that have gone commercial. Those apps are still discussed and linked to here because they all have trial periods. There is nothing wrong with commercializing your own ip..The wrong comes when you commercialize ip that you don't own or haven't properly license.
So let's continue a great tradition of creativity. I believe that this site is the primary reason that HTC and microsoft keep trying to make a better operating system. This site is where many ideas come from. This site gives the OS life beyond the normal experience.
denco7 said:
(snip)
Oh yeah ........one more thing
Tell that to Chip Foose and Orange County Choppers. They take other people's parts, design and tweak and create masterpieces worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. Your telling me a Foose Design isn't intellectual property?
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Pfft Those Posers
some confused thinking here -
A cook can ask for a contribution for his time but there is no way he can claim that a cooked rom is his IPR because it's belongs to someone else start with - no licence to modify has been granted!
Now creating programs from scratch, that's a different issue and how they want to deal with payment is upto them.
my theory is whoever created the forum and then got ppl to volounter to mantain it
ITS THERE FORUM
Its really up to them what they want to do
trock79 said:
Did you have permission from the original devs? I don't think so. I understand Jdkoreclipse is not a member here but there were others that were involved including myself. It is not wise to release something you did not ask permission for and obviously did not know what was put into it.
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trock79 said:
Where is the credit?
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r2DoesInc said:
Should have asked bro. That's all.
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synisterwolf said:
Stealing stolen work is still not ok...
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You have got to be kidding me? Are you serious? Permission from who? Surely not from you or any other half-assed, want to be, developer who, technically, has stolen work from Google, HTC, Motorola, Acer, Samsung, LG, etc. Just because you have altered someone else's work to get it to function on a device that it was not intended for doesn't entitle you to anything. We're talking about files that real devs worked their asses off to get working on specific phone models. In no shape, form, or fashion, have you done any of this on your own. So stop *****ing about something that you didn't earn nor deserve! I hope you don't think that decompiling, tweaking, and then recompiling the actual dev's work makes you special. Can you show us, the community, the permission which you received from any of the developers or manufacturers to use their **** in the first place? If the answer to that question is "no", then you or anybody else who "helps" out in the modification of somebody else's actual work should not receive credit from anyone until you prove that you were given the same permission, regarding the files, that you are asking for in return.
inb4 ****storm
REMOVED.........
I'm so confused right now...
I understand the sentiment behind this topic, but you're presenting it in a very abrasive manner.
Sent from my ADR6300 using XDA App
NilsP said:
Well, As much as I enjoy it, I was looking for a good reason to quit "developing" ROM's.
Since your summary of what a "developer" is was so good it convinced me I am just a "hack" so I guess I have a good reason now.
Plus, now that I know I am just a common thief because I never asked Google or even HTC's permission I have even more reason.
Thanks for your help....
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Truthfully Nils, I don't know how you guys do it anyway. Every thread I've been in on here (with the exception of MIUI and IncROM) has been a bunch of morons screaming for updates and bug fixes, as if the only thing in ya'll's life that should matter is getting their pathetic asses a new ROM fix. I would have blown up long ago if I were you, so you're a much better man than me.
NilsP said:
Well, As much as I enjoy it, I was looking for a good reason to quit "developing" ROM's.
Since your summary of what a "developer" is was so good it convinced me I am just a "hack" so I guess I have a good reason now.
Plus, now that I know I am just a common thief because I never asked Google or even HTC's permission I have even more reason.
Thanks for your help....
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NilsP, this wasn't aimed at you, but to each their own. Sounds like your mind was already made up. That's solely your decision.
@raptir, I wasn't trying to come off as abrasive. I just wanted to put a few things in perspective. No one should make that big of a deal over files that didn't belong to them originally. It doesn't matter how a person modifies the original file, the idea was someone else's from the jump. It's sickening to watch a new cook get ganged up on by people who wouldn't even have a clue if the original file didn't exist to begin with.
The thread in which I quoted the three people from was going fine up until trock79's post. When a person feels as if the world owes them something, it becomes a situation. Members of the forum need to address crap like this immediately, if only to let people like he/she know that we (the community) is all that matters. Without us, there would be nothing.
justsayinbro said:
You have got to be kidding me? Are you serious? Permission from who? Surely not from you or any other half-assed, want to be, developer who, technically, has stolen work from Google, HTC, Motorola, Acer, Samsung, LG, etc. Just because you have altered someone else's work to get it to function on a device that it was not intended for doesn't entitle you to anything. We're talking about files that real devs worked their asses off to get working on specific phone models. In no shape, form, or fashion, have you done any of this on your own. So stop *****ing about something that you didn't earn nor deserve! I hope you don't think that decompiling, tweaking, and then recompiling the actual dev's work makes you special. Can you show us, the community, the permission which you received from any of the developers or manufacturers to use their **** in the first place? If the answer to that question is "no", then you or anybody else who "helps" out in the modification of somebody else's actual work should not receive credit from anyone until you prove that you were given the same permission, regarding the files, that you are asking for in return.
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Its just the way it is boss. But every now and then you'll find some cool dudes who don't care about the forks and kangs because they just do this for fun (coincidentally those are the dudes who are so good at what they do that they even know they're gonna get kanged). Stick around and you'll see...
REMOVED.........
I haven't asked HTC, Google's nor VZW permission for any of the files I have posted here and across many forums. While I do not edit the files I guess this would just make me a thief and I shoud pull them all.
How about open source code (which makes up Android and the released code from the hardware manufacturers)?
justsayinbro said:
You have got to be kidding me? Are you serious? Permission from who? Surely not from you or any other half-assed, want to be, developer who, technically, has stolen work from Google, HTC, Motorola, Acer, Samsung, LG, etc. Just because you have altered someone else's work to get it to function on a device that it was not intended for doesn't entitle you to anything. We're talking about files that real devs worked their asses off to get working on specific phone models. In no shape, form, or fashion, have you done any of this on your own. So stop *****ing about something that you didn't earn nor deserve! I hope you don't think that decompiling, tweaking, and then recompiling the actual dev's work makes you special. Can you show us, the community, the permission which you received from any of the developers or manufacturers to use their **** in the first place? If the answer to that question is "no", then you or anybody else who "helps" out in the modification of somebody else's actual work should not receive credit from anyone until you prove that you were given the same permission, regarding the files, that you are asking for in return.
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Dude google's code is meant to be shared... That's why they release SDKs to the masses. It's not stealing. From what I gather from your post and tone of it. You're the thief and call out all the other devs shows the lack of respect you have for them.
justsayinbro said:
You have got to be kidding me? Are you serious? Permission from who? Surely not from you or any other half-assed, want to be, developer who, technically, has stolen work from Google, HTC, Motorola, Acer, Samsung, LG, etc. Just because you have altered someone else's work to get it to function on a device that it was not intended for doesn't entitle you to anything. We're talking about files that real devs worked their asses off to get working on specific phone models. In no shape, form, or fashion, have you done any of this on your own. So stop *****ing about something that you didn't earn nor deserve! I hope you don't think that decompiling, tweaking, and then recompiling the actual dev's work makes you special. Can you show us, the community, the permission which you received from any of the developers or manufacturers to use their **** in the first place? If the answer to that question is "no", then you or anybody else who "helps" out in the modification of somebody else's actual work should not receive credit from anyone until you prove that you were given the same permission, regarding the files, that you are asking for in return.
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I read the thread and I remember thinking pretty much what you wrote, but I give you credit for coming out and saying it. I doubt you will find much support though as some people have huge egos that need to be stroked.
justsayinbro said:
NilsP, this wasn't aimed at you, but to each their own. Sounds like your mind was already made up. That's solely your decision.
@raptir, I wasn't trying to come off as abrasive. I just wanted to put a few things in perspective. No one should make that big of a deal over files that didn't belong to them originally. It doesn't matter how a person modifies the original file, the idea was someone else's from the jump. It's sickening to watch a new cook get ganged up on by people who wouldn't even have a clue if the original file didn't exist to begin with.
The thread in which I quoted the three people from was going fine up until trock79's post. When a person feels as if the world owes them something, it becomes a situation. Members of the forum need to address crap like this immediately, if only to let people like he/she know that we (the community) is all that matters. Without us, there would be nothing.
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From the xda rules that we all agreed to abide by before posting here...
12. Using the work of others.
If you are developing something that is based on the work of another Member, you MUST first seek their permission, and you must give credit to the member whose work you used. If a dispute occurs about who developed / created a piece of work, first try to settle the matter by private message and NOT in open forum. If this fails then you may contact a moderator with clear evidence that the work was created by you.
Convincing evidence will result in copied work being removed. If there is no clear evidence you created the work then in the spirit of sharing all work will remain posted on the forums.
These rules apply to all software posted on XDA unless that software comes with a license that waives these rules.
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Noticed all the quotes are from my thread, so thought I'd comment.
You make a point, but in the wrong manner. While I agree that you shouldn't say others don't have permission if you yourself don't, you should be able to claim some territory. Such as for the fixes that got it working on a particular device. The reason I did not in my thread is because I didn't use any fix from someone, when I mentioned what it was based from, I only used the Motorola software included. The new rebuilt one is from a friend's Droid X. He let me root it and use the system dump of it. So to a certain degree, a can agree with what you are saying, but not completely.
Point of view
Nobody asked for your opinion, yet you give it anyway.
Nobody asked for any of the "devs" to do their work, yet they did it anyway.
Nobody asked Linus Torvalds if they could use his work to build on open source operating system.
Nobody likes it when you steal their work and claim it as their own.
Everyone appreciates when you give credit where credit is due.
Everyone likes it when their hard work is recognized.
Everyone has paid for their device and has the right to modify it in any way they see fit.
You have made your point.
You could make a far more effective point if you used a little character, acumen and respect.
Much love my friends
Sounds like your yelling at r2doesinc OP... uses everyone's work he does...
Sent from my ADR6300 using XDA App
I just wanted to vent off about a trend that is starting to p*** me off greatly.
It is these so called 'Devs' that are 'cooking' ROM's and claiming to be Developers, then expect some form of payment for their 'work'.
Now before I get flamed, I am not talking about the recognised Developers on here who do some fantastic, complex work. I am quite willing and often do, donate as a token of my appreciation for their work and to help cover development costs.
I am talking the 'chancers' who take either a Stock ROM or AOSP (or indeed, another Dev's ROM), theme it a bit, add in some fixes and apps from other developers, then release it as a fantastically named ROM and ask numerous times in the first post for a donation.
This then leads to a thread full of posts asking the 'Dev' for fixes, who usually reply something like, "I'll look into it ", then wait for a real developer to make a fix elsewhere, and then include it in their ROM, inferring that they have fixed it.
I should state here that the tipping point for me today was a cooked ROM I saw, where the guy is not asking for donations per se, but has a 'wish list' on Amazon, a 'wish list' for f*** sake.
I know the Mods on this site have more than enough work on their hands, but couldn't we have a sort of two-tier system, whereby the submitted work could be scrutinized and a decision taken as to whether it has been 'cooked' or 'developed'. Then the person submitting could be advised as to whether they can call themselves a 'Chef' or a 'Dev'. Also some advice could be given about donations.........
lease report any abuse of the donation rules to us so we can deal with it appropriately.
Thankyou for raising some very valid points as well. Unfortunately though it's simply not viable to evaluate all releases.
Sent From My Fingers To Your Face......
Problem is you cant make it so only Recognized Devs can release ROMs either because there are so many good devs that are not recognized
Of course you are both correct. It would likely discourage people from trying to create ROM's and these guys (whether they cook or code) deserve all the plaudits they receive.
I should take a deep breath before sounding off .
That's what happens when you have to work over the holidays!
killall said:
...the guy is not asking for donations per se, but has a 'wish list' on Amazon
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I saw that too. I think the only reason I didn't report it was because I was so flabbergasted! (Ask the mods, I'm not shy when it comes to reporting stuff )
The thing that really got me was that it was mostly stuff around the $40-$60 range, some more! If it were things like USB cables and screen protectors that were only a few quid a go then I could accept it, but not the stuff he was asking for.
Edit: Found it and reported it. Let the mods decide.
I never ask, in fact I'm dead against it. If I do something its for my phone. Of course I will share it, but I did it for me. A few people have asked so now I include a charity link in my work. That way I don't know who donates and I feel no obligation to them to do more, or edit it to there wants, also I might be doing some good in the world. I feel this is the way to go. I rarely donate for fear of abuse of the system. And yeah, I recently saw a guy post a unworking ics port. Let other guys in the forum fix then ask for donations.
Sent from my GT-S5830 using xda premium
I wanted to bring up a very important topic that seems to be brought up recently. There have been reports that people copy and steal other people's works. This doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. For one, android is open source and everyone can use it without asking permission. For another, if you are defending your case by saying that it takes hours and days to compile your Rom, then what about those people at HTC and Google who developed the original Roms? They spent years studying and developing Roms. Do you ask permission? You don't. In theory, you should all be banned and discontinued because you didn't ask permission from HTC or Google. Now stop acting like a bunch of Steve Jobs. And while you're at it try and Patent your Rom so other people can't use it. This is probably the reason Android Development will fall and iOS development will rise.
First in before the bashing starts
Sent from a dream.
So...this wasn't so much a "question" as much as a rant.
HTC and Google devs get recognition: they get paid, and they get the experience to put on their resume. Our devs don't. They work for free. For hours. The only recognition they get is here, from the very grateful leechers (of which I am one). I don't think it's too much to ask to just get recognized for that work. Most give permission IF ASKED. If I was in fact one of those devs, someone stealing would completely turn me off from developing. And then where would us leechers be? Cooks are nice and all, but without true devs we would all still be on stock.
This has nothing to do with open source law and everything to do with basic human interaction. This is not law school. This is not a courtroom. This is a place where the generous share with the many, and I hope it stays that way.
I would also like to point out, when people complain about "dev wars" they say that they only "hurt the community." I would guess that in many cases, "hurt the community" is a synonym for "I personally don't get to have my Frankenstein ROM." All the high and mighty lingo doesn't hide that simple fact.
Apologize for my ignorance but I do understand my point. I put it in the Q&A since it did have question on the topic title so I thought the mod would move this post to Q&A anyway. It isn't too much to ask for recognition but there have been some instances in other device thread where it literally becomes a crazy nuclear war with people banning threads if a small piece of code is implemented which is ridiculous especially when that code is not device exclusive or Rom exclusive (or pure coincidence). Thanks for the quick and clarifying and mature response.
Thankfully, I haven't seen that our devs are like that, or that our mods have stood for that kind of behavior. So let's just keep enjoying our lovely Ace ROMs.
Have a read about AOSP License
Basically, while Google prefers everything AOSP related to be open source, anyone implementing Android can choose whether they would like to make their source code publicly available or not.
This is also one reason why OEMs are required to provide the kernel source code to the public (the kernel is under GPL) but not the source code to their ROMs.