In light of what I considered to be a couple of very disturbing developments, I think at this point, a dialogue/debate needs to be opened on what rights/copyrights a contributor has on the intellectual material he/she posts here.
Sakajati was abruptly censored when he suggested that future roms may be administered through a tool bar and not administered through this site.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=3288089&postcount=10332
And the way that BeyondInvisible was driven off this site by the " takers " and not supported by this site. ( the people that stole his new pay/per icons and published them for free, should have been banned). http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=2798052#post2798052 because he dared suggest that it might be time for all the takers to pony up.
When your work becomes widely successful ala; olinex, jockyw, sakajati, MobileMatt, JCKOTZE, Schap, in the kaiser forums, at what point does toiling around in poverty while you work hard for others for free, become less attractive than selling your work?
Who now owns your work , you, XDA, is it copyrighted? When you decide to take it private what ownership rights does XDA retain?
If you request that XDA remove your work, can they leave an archive of it?
I love this site it is the greatest resource on the net for PDA's but I think these subjects could use a good going over by the Mods and the membership.
Dennis
Removing SJ's toolbar was NOT censorship, regardless of how you're trying to spin it. We received several complaints from users who don't feel comfortable being required to install a toolbar just to use their favorite ROM... ask any Mod, we all get the emails. The action I took (editing the toolbar links) is the most benign available to Moderators. I could have closed the thread, and moved it to a Mod-only section while the investigation/discussion took place. Instead, I opted to merely edit out the download links.
There is no justification for requiring users to install a toolbar into Internet Explorer (or any other browser in the Windows environment) just so they can have access to a Chef's ROMs.
Now while a decision has not yet been made, I can confidently say that if SJ had promoted his toolbar as a tool to help all users of his ROMs get the latest "breaking" new on development, and NOT required it in order to obtain the password required for flashing, then we [most likely] would have allowed the toolbar to stay linked on XDA.
I think part of the problem here is that many seem to think that they are entitled to what the chefs produce for nothing. The hours spent porting and testing should count for something but for many it is just expected. I for one have no problem contributing what I can when I'm able. It is too bad that more don't do this.
Kirby
Intellectual property laws protect the inventor/creator rights of ownership to their intellectual property in cyber media. So there is no fear but a concern for any coder that his or her work marketing could be abused or it could be stolen. That is the risk one takes without his or her choice when they share their creations with others.
I also read XDA rules, and it clearly states that soliciting anything for money is prohibited. many cooks are on the border line of asking for money rather encouraging donation for sharing the fruit of their work with others. I do not have a problem with that and believe the majority here share my sentiment. I have a problem however with someone begging for donation without any substantiating efforts, invention or creation to merit the donation solicitation. That being said, I believe SJ was a true gentleman in all of his posts and never infringed on callus donation request; having a tool bar that he feels if XDA was out ( and it was out few times in the past month) as an optional site but not alternative support site that can be accessed where members can help each other is not a bad idea.
We seem to forget sometimes that XDA site was created to help one developer another achieve excellence in the field of e-communication.
so again, I have no problem with SJ promoting his tool bar as long as it is not used to ransom donation for solving issues and i am sure like I said earlier, this is NOT SJ's intention.
NotATreoFan said:
Removing SJ's toolbar was NOT censorship, regardless of how you're trying to spin it. We received several complaints from users who don't feel comfortable being required to install a toolbar just to use their favorite ROM...
There is no justification for requiring users to install a toolbar into Internet Explorer (or any other browser in the Windows environment) just so they can have access to a Chef's ROMs.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That was one of my major points, there " was " no requirement . because there " was no rom ". You struck preemptively to something that had not happened yet, because it might happen in the future. You squashed his right to promote a private project , as many many people do here, because a few ungrateful people complained that in the future they might have to obtain the rom it SJ's way.
Had he stated that the next rom would be available only by joining his website, would you have shut him down?
My question is, at what point does a chef have the right to take his work private, and how , without any interference from this site.
Believe me, I am not trying to "spin " anything against anyone, I have a great deal of respect for you and all you have done for this forum ( we miss your input in the Kaiser world ) I just thought that it was a heavy handed response ( and yes censorship ) to something that hadn't even happened yet.
A simple PM could have alieviated the situation for the time being, while the Mods figured it out. Not a head on erase everything, assault SJ's right to promote his work and wares.
And I would say again, that the integrity of this site depends on people to share openly and honestly without fear of unjustified reprisal, SJ has said that he will not for the time being, take any new roms private. I think that is enough for all his links to be restored. If not, what other definitions of censorship do you have ?
JimmyMcGee said:
Your opinion is respected. But the appearance was that he WAS requiring people to use the Toolbar to get the Password for the ROM.
Sakajati can do what ever he wants with his ROM, if he chooses to require the Toolbar, that's his choice. If XDA, the people who maintain and provide some presence for his ROM here say that's not in the spirit of the community, then he can release the ROMs on his website soley.
Basically you have to follow certain rules to post your stuff on SourceForge, so think of at as the same thing.
You seem to be the only one with a problem. sakajati is a great guy and is being cooperative in the investigation.
There is written law and common law. This falls more into to "Common Law" area, which is why I said it was a Grey area.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I brought this over from the Hyperdragon thread to here, to discuss.
I just want everyone to know, this has more to do with the big picture than it has to do with sakajati. This has nothing to do with NATF or with jimmy and I am probably not the only one who has a problem with the way it was handled. I am just the one with the big mouth. And we all know that sakajati would never say a word or give anything less than his full cooperation.
I just want someone to tell me not just for SJ, but for the good of the whole community and as a precedent for future complaints of this type, why SJ couldn't have been shot a PM asking what his intentions were, and if they approached a grey area, he could have been informed and he would have cooperated. End of any problem. It is not like there was any urgency, as I said before, there was no requirement because there was no rom.
And if people did over react then it is good for everyone to get a dialogue started. That is what this site is all about.
Thanks guys for doing a great job !
denco7 said:
That was one of my major points, there " was " no requirement . because there " was no rom ". You struck preemptively to something that had not happened yet, because it might happen in the future. You squashed his right to promote a private project , as many many people do here, because a few ungrateful people complained that in the future they might have to obtain the rom it SJ's way.
Had he stated that the next rom would be available only by joining his website, would you have shut him down?
My question is, at what point does a chef have the right to take his work private, and how , without any interference from this site.
Believe me, I am not trying to "spin " anything against anyone, I have a great deal of respect for you and all you have done for this forum ( we miss your input in the Kaiser world ) I just thought that it was a heavy handed response ( and yes censorship ) to something that hadn't even happened yet.
A simple PM could have alieviated the situation for the time being, while the Mods figured it out. Not a head on erase everything, assault SJ's right to promote his work and wares.
And I would say again, that the integrity of this site depends on people to share openly and honestly without fear of unjustified reprisal, SJ has said that he will not for the time being, take any new roms private. I think that is enough for all his links to be restored. If not, what other definitions of censorship do you have ?
I brought this over from the Hyperdragon thread to here, to discuss.
I just want everyone to know, this has more to do with the big picture than it has to do with sakajati. This has nothing to do with NATF or with jimmy and I am probably not the only one who has a problem with the way it was handled. I am just the one with the big mouth. And we all know that sakajati would never say a word or give anything less than his full cooperation.
I just want someone to tell me not just for SJ, but for the good of the whole community and as a precedent for future complaints of this type, why SJ couldn't have been shot a PM asking what his intentions were, and if they approached a grey area, he could have been informed and he would have cooperated. End of any problem. It is not like there was any urgency, as I said before, there was no requirement because there was no rom.
And if people did over react then it is good for everyone to get a dialogue started. That is what this site is all about.
Thanks guys for doing a great job !
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My Friend read this...
sakajati said:
Just uploaded the cab to download center. It will add [Slide down for call functions] feature.
*** Please all of you install my toolbar [mod edit: link removed], this is the tool that will keep you updated and you will receive alert/message via the toolbar for news and announcements regularly from me. If you're using HyperDragon ROMs, you have to install it since the next rom release will be password protected and you'll get the password only via this toolbar . No adware, spyware, crapware, underware, read the Toolbar Privacy [mod edit: link removed]for details.***
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Read the Green Parts. The general consensus is IF sakajati REQUIRES people to use the Toolbar to use his ROMs, he is no longer contributing to the XDA ROM Community.
sakajati is ALLOWED and not censored to require this if he so chooses. However the ramifications are, that he would no longer be allowed to advertise his ROM here.
The "common law" rule is, if you post a ROM on XDA, you are contributing to the community and the ROM shall have NO STRINGS attached. No requirement to Give Money, no requirement to have a toolbar installed.
If sakajati wishes to offer his toolbar as a way to stay in "constant contact" with him, then I don't see a problem. But the release of the ROM shall not be contingent on the toolbar. At least not while it is advertised on XDA.
And P.S. lets not get into calling ROMs Intellectual Property, because honestly, ROMs are Microsoft's I.P. All chefs do is tweak, improve and skin ROMs. And I don't mean to take anything away from chefs awesome work by saying that. So saying sakajati's ROM is his I.P. is like saying you taking you Toyota Celica, painting it Pink with Green Racing strips and boring out the engine, makes that car your I.P.
But as NATF has said, no final desicsion has been made, I only type this reply to give full disclosure, to show that our intentions are not to censor.
Thanks.
JimmyMcGee said:
If sakajati wishes to offer his toolbar as a way to stay in "constant contact" with him, then I don't see a problem. But the release of the ROM shall not be contingent on the toolbar. At least not while it is advertised on XDA.
But as NATF has said, no final decision has been made, I only type this reply to give full disclosure, to show that our intentions are not to censor.
Thanks.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Since this has all been put to rest, I just have some final thoughts and then I'll shut up.
It was never about XDA's/Mod's disapproval as to what he intended to do, you all are entrusted with the success and smooth running of this site and have every right to administer this site as you see fit, (as I have every right to question why ) And it was not really about SJ, he was just the vehicle of my overall concern about creative people leaving this site because of real and perceived ( do it our way or get out ) disagreements.
I guess I just wanted to know, if people decided to take their projects private,such as a new rom, would they still be welcome here to support older projects or develop new projects here ( that fell within XDA guildlines ) and while supporting their projects, could they in a subtle non-commercial way, direct people to private/financially enhancing projects.
And of course I still object to the way it was handled, that sort of, " we are taking it all down until we decide " way of doing it, is something that happens to noobs that don't know any better. Not to someone who has done as much for, and contributed so much to the Kaiser community as sakajati has done.
The Mods always preach, " if you have a dispute with another member, take it to PM, " Unfortunately this great advise wasn't followed, and I am glad that SJ was not offended by this and did not pack up his toys and go home ( like unfortunately other members have done )
And I am sorry if " I " have offended anyone, that was not my intention. I love this site and think that discussions like this benefit the longevity of this site. I am glad everything has been resolved and I will shut up and go away now
Oh yeah ........one more thing
And P.S. lets not get into calling ROMs Intellectual Property, because honestly, ROMs are Microsoft's I.P. All chefs do is tweak, improve and skin ROMs. And I don't mean to take anything away from chefs awesome work by saying that. So saying sakajati's ROM is his I.P. is like saying you taking you Toyota Celica, painting it Pink with Green Racing strips and boring out the engine, makes that car your I.P.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Tell that to Chip Foose and Orange County Choppers. They take other people's parts, design and tweak and create masterpieces worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. Your telling me a Foose Design isn't intellectual property?
denco7 said:
The Mods always preach, " if you have a dispute with another member, take it to PM, " Unfortunately this great advise wasn't followed, and I am glad that SJ was not offended by this and did not pack up his toys and go home ( like unfortunately other members have done )
And I am sorry if " I " have offended anyone, that was not my intention. I love this site and think that discussions like this benefit the longevity of this site. I am glad everything has been resolved and I will shut up and go away now
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is not an issue of personal disagreement, it is a violation of our rules of operation. When we see questionable activity, we will always take the action of stopping the activity, contacting the OP, and trying to resolve it quickly. I am sure SJ understands this as well as anyone here that it was nothing personal, and simply just S.O.P. around here. It's a lot easier to take down a problem for a couple days, and then let it back up with an apology than it is to remove it after we've debated.
As for you question about prior contributions, of course anyone is welcome to support anything that they have and continue to offer that is in compliance with our rules here. Nothing even stops a user from selling some stuff, and giving others away. It's just that they can't post the stuff they're selling here, just the donation ware.
IP
I have just a couple points. The Phoenix team has a separate website we use for tracking bugs and other discussion so we don't clutter up this site. However our intent is to foster creativity, open communication and cooperation among users and chefs which we hope results in better products for the users of this site. So don't always think a private website like ours or SJ's is a bad thing.
However, I would like to point out what was only stated one time in the thread--the guts of these roms are the ip of microsoft and htc. Now as chef's we find other bits and pieces that are added--and these are the ip of their creators. Sometimes we contribute our own ip--like skins, icons and very specific know how to get the roms to help our devices perform at peak efficiency. But anyone who would try to take a rom private and sell it, would have some major issues without first getting license to do so from MS, HTC and those other people who own the other intellectual property.
There are many examples of apps that were developed by talented people here that have gone commercial. Those apps are still discussed and linked to here because they all have trial periods. There is nothing wrong with commercializing your own ip..The wrong comes when you commercialize ip that you don't own or haven't properly license.
So let's continue a great tradition of creativity. I believe that this site is the primary reason that HTC and microsoft keep trying to make a better operating system. This site is where many ideas come from. This site gives the OS life beyond the normal experience.
denco7 said:
(snip)
Oh yeah ........one more thing
Tell that to Chip Foose and Orange County Choppers. They take other people's parts, design and tweak and create masterpieces worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. Your telling me a Foose Design isn't intellectual property?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Pfft Those Posers
some confused thinking here -
A cook can ask for a contribution for his time but there is no way he can claim that a cooked rom is his IPR because it's belongs to someone else start with - no licence to modify has been granted!
Now creating programs from scratch, that's a different issue and how they want to deal with payment is upto them.
my theory is whoever created the forum and then got ppl to volounter to mantain it
ITS THERE FORUM
Its really up to them what they want to do
Related
I was not expecting any more donations, it was intended to be a release to those that had already donated. I intended to let things die down on here before a public release here and my last public release here. Then everything was blown out of proportion and people felt that they were obligated to donate in order to receive it. I wanted it to be released for those that already had donated as a thank you for your support and that I would publicly release in about a week.
I can not help that people make assumptions, this is not my fault. I can not help it that Midget and JasJamming (AKA CRUSTEL) have to play games. It was done so I could decide if I wanted to publicly release or not because of recent events. If it would not have been here it would have been on my site.
So those that still feel as if I am "charging" for a M$ product so be it, I can not help how you perceive what my intentions were. The rom will be released here it is just a matter of when, and will be my final release on xda. All future releases will be on my site where I am not under the scrutiny of biased individuals.
Just as he said
I donated to Custel a few days ago. I had no expectations as I have donated to others as well. A short time later I received a PM with his beta. I did not ask for it and he did not request more donations. He only said for me to try it, not distribute and report back. I think he is being unfairly criticized. If others got the impression that he was requiring a donation then IMHO they are wrong.
I appreciate the hard work of the many talented pros on this and other sites. You have taken this gear we call a phone to a new level. Getting into pi**ing matches does not further the cause in the proper fashion.
I truly have no horse in the race here. I just want everyone to know that from my experience Custel was always above board.
Mark
nuff said
Nicely done, Custel. I've always had a feeling that you are a man of intellect and integrity, and I never doubted your sincerity, nor your intelligence when it comes to resale of M$ property.
I think you are owed an apology (yeah, wait for that), and recognition that you were mature enough to come back here and explain your intentions.
I wish you all the best luck with your new (and pretty slick) site, and with all your future endeavors.
Best regards,
-Paul
CUSTEL said:
I wanted it to be released for those that already had donated as a thank you for your support and that I would publicly release in about a week.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Honestly, that is how I read your intentions to begin with. It's what ensued thereafter that made things appear 'underhanded' and perhaps get blown out of proportion.
While it's admirable to say that you 'weren't expecting any more donations' (and I take you at your word that you weren't), you should have backed that up with not accepting any more donations nor giving anyone but prior donors access to your pre-release until such time as you made a public release, wherever that may be.
That said, every indication was (and still is) that those who donate will be given access to your ROM and until that point is cleared up, your actions will remain questionable and under debate.
You do good work, CUSTEL. Don't let it be sullied by some silly scandal.
vp3G said:
Honestly, that is how I read your intentions to begin with. It's what ensued thereafter that made things appear 'underhanded' and perhaps get blown out of proportion.
While it's admirable to say that you 'weren't expecting any more donations' (and I take you at your word that you weren't), you should have backed that up with not accepting any more donations nor giving anyone but prior donors access to your pre-release until such time as you made a public release, wherever that may be.
That said, every indication was (and still is) that those who donate will be given access to your ROM and until that point is cleared up, your actions will remain questionable and under debate.
You do good work, CUSTEL. Don't let it be sullied by some silly scandal.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Good Point, from this point on those that donate to receive will not be given access to it.
CUSTEL said:
Good Point, from this point on those that donate will not be given access to it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Glad you see as such. Yep, that's all you needed to do to put the brakes on this mess.
Custel the Best
It is unclear to me exactly what happened, and that isn't important. What is important is the deterioration of XDA-Developers. Some of the best cooks are leaving. If this trend continues, what kind of place will be left.
Custel - I will continue to run 2.5, it is almost the perfect ROM for me. Please try to work this out. Maybe some of the moderators will see what is happening.
Mark
And as far ass JazJaming and we know how the rest of his clan is i wouldn't worry too much about them, They know your work is good and thats what makes them mad. They know you have a short temper and they try to piss you off in every way they can I just hope that some of the few good Mods left on this forum will try to clean up some of the favoritism that has plagued this forum. If you leave the forum i wouldn't blame you and i would probably do the same
Good luck to you man, and keep up the great work you do for all the nerds and n00bs out there
not to sound like a d***
Custel - You can call requesting money for access to your work anything you want... call it donating if you desire but please understand that others will call this the way they see it. My personal opinion is that I will call a bird a bird and when someone requires a "donation" before granting access then they are "selling" it. Of course, these are just the words that I choose to use. /shrug
Despiadado1 said:
Custel - You can call requesting money for access to your work anything you want... call it donating if you desire but please understand that others will call this the way they see it. My personal opinion is that I will call a bird a bird and when someone requires a "donation" before granting access then they are "selling" it. Of course, these are just the words that I choose to use. /shrug
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Would you like a quarter?
Sounds like the right thing to do - BTW Syndicate looks good with the 'n' in it.
gregross said:
Sounds like the right thing to do - BTW Syndicate looks good with the 'n' in it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
LOL smartass, hey it was made at 4am so yea... lol
CUSTEL said:
LOL smartass, hey it was made at 4am so yea... lol
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
He he - the (syndicate) site looks great -hopefully all of this drama slows down soon ...
misfitflt said:
It is unclear to me exactly what happened, and that isn't important. What is important is the deterioration of XDA-Developers. Some of the best cooks are leaving. If this trend continues, what kind of place will be left.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
XDA-Developers isn't about cooking ROMs. It is our work that makes ROM cooking possible. For each and every device, we first take it apart and build tools to unlock CID and SIM. We do this at great risk to our expensive new devices. When finished with this part of our work, we have allowed the flashing of other operator ROMS. Then we begin to decode the ROM image itself and build the tools to manipulate it. Finally, we unlock the bootloader and make it safe for the masses to flash.
When this happens, chefs appear and custom ROMs are produced. Bickering and fighting occurs. N00bs are bashed. Yet XDA-Developers are mostly done at this point. Go back through the older device forums and find out what folks like Buzz Lightyear went through. It's a repeated cycle.
My hat is off to the Hermes XDA Developers: pof, Des, OliPro, Tadzio, Bepe, mun_rus. I shake my head in wonder at these folks as I use their tools and hard won knowledge to perform XIP grafts on my latest Hermes ROM.
XDA developers are application gurus too and we provide critical fixes/patches. I'm a part of this as are folks like SuperDave and ViJay555.
Hermes is at EOL. Be happy to know that we will once again begin taking apart the next big device. We are looking forward to Kaiser and the next set of challenges.
XDA developers won't die when the Chef's star fades with their devices. We will be doing what this site is all about: making your next device better.
why is everyone arguing? i thought everyone had a common goal!!
things will be much better when certain people get of there high horse I believe. the n00b bashing is almost a given I'm sure that will never change.
austinsnyc said:
things will be much better when certain people get of there high horse I believe. the n00b bashing is almost a given I'm sure that will never change.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Must we remind you of your first few posts?
@Sleuth: A really nice, concise synopsis...it should be stickied as a solo post ... a motto ... a mission statement.
I've only been 'round these parts for a few months now, and have barely learned how to make use of the end-parts of this EOL, and I am forever grateful for the wonderful experience. I've learned some things, hope to learn more, and am enjoying the ride.
I thank you and all the geniuses on your list. This site is amazing! A real tribute to what this Internet thing could be. An educational tool and repository for historical knowledge. Better than any library ... bringing that knowledgebase first to our homes and businesses, and now, to the palms of our hands.
But I digress (15 hours of work will do that to you).
Thank you for that last post...I really enjoyed it after a very stressful day.
Kindest regards,
-pvs
pvs said:
@Sleuth: A really nice, concise synopsis...it should be stickied as a solo post ... a motto ... a mission statement.
I've only been 'round these parts for a few months now, and have barely learned how to make use of the end-parts of this EOL, and I am forever grateful for the wonderful experience. I've learned some things, hope to learn more, and am enjoying the ride.
I thank you and all the geniuses on your list. This site is amazing! A real tribute to what this Internet thing could be. An educational tool and repository for historical knowledge. Better than any library ... bringing that knowledgebase first to our homes and businesses, and now, to the palms of our hands.
But I digress (15 hours of work will do that to you).
Thank you for that last post...I really enjoyed it after a very stressful day.
Kindest regards,
-pvs
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I second that!! im very new here too and pvs is right, this place is better than a library!!
bennec83 said:
I second that!! im very new here too and pvs is right, this place is better than a library!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Never said i was never a n00b myself or an angel
Does pretty much suck that everyone is leaving Xda though
Hi all,
I'm just a junior member and have no autual authority in the XDA-Developers Community so I hope this is the right place to put this thread. Moderators, please move it if I've got that wrong. I've just read this thread in the Development and Hacking forum:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=425167
and it raised some concerns in my mind which could present some fairly serious threats to the nature of this forum (i.e. developers' willingness to get involved). Here's a copy of what I posted, entitled "We NEED to see the bigger picture":
OK, I have read through this thread fairly quickly and I have some observations and some suggestions to make. Let me say that I am more of a “user” than a developer but I have made a few very small contributions on XDA-Developers. Please check my stats if you want to. Let me also say that I always look at the “bigger picture” in these situations.
Unfortunately what has happened to A_C over S2U2 is a consequence of capitalism. Businesses exist for the purpose of making money and extending their business. It is not so much a matter of trust or character but that the very purpose of a business is to make money and nothing else. The situation we’ve been presented with does however raise some concerning issues.
There are technicalities and more technicalities which people will continue to use to make money out of products and items of value they did not produce themselves. I don’t think anything we can say to businesses will prevent them doing this. For all the arguments we can present, they will have others and there would be little we can do to stop them TRYING to use freely developed software in this way. Businesses will have more money than we have to promote “their” products, and as we’ve already seen, unless we have a pro-bono lawyer, they will have more money for to defend their business and sales through the law and search engine optimisation (which is a very big business by the way!).
The point I am trying to make is that while this may be an isolated incident right now, there’s nothing to stop this happening again and again. We may well have “lost” A_C despite all the genuine and heart felt encouragement directed towards him so it seems to me that if we want to protect what we have, an environment where developers feel free to develop software for themselves and “us” with our support, we need to do more. What can we do?
We do have two critical factors on our side:
1) Community
2) Technical Expertise
Community - A community has a much greater power to change it’s destiny than any one individual – as demonstrated by the unfortunate situation A_C finds himself in. If we all pull together, or even just those of us more committed to this community, we will be able to overcome much more than we currently realise.
Technical Expertise – As stated above, I am not a developer but I am convinced that there is more technical ability available to this community than many software businesses could pay for with their entire budget, or even turnover.
I believe we must make use of these two strengths or suffer the consequences.
My basic suggestion is that a working group is set up from developers who contribute to this community with the sole purpose of writing a code which can be inserted into any ROM or software which clearly states that the software/ROM has been developed free of charge, and that if the “customer” has paid for it then they should ask for a refund and contact XDA-Developers to report the licence violation and receive the full free version of the software. Once developed this code can then be made available, with instructions, to any new developers who start to submit work to the community so that they don’t fall foul of the same experience as A_C.
Additionally could this code be hard coded into the software/ROM so that unscrupulous software sales companies can’t take it out (I.E. not just a .gif or .jpg splash that can be changed or removed)?
As this is a forum, the next step would be for people to share their views on these suggestions and we’ll see what happens!
Best wishes to A_C – hope you’re not feeling too bad.
I’m going to post this in the general forum as a new thread if there’s not one there already.
andrew-in-woking
I hope that this thread will engender some constructive discussion and lead to a better community for all of us.
Best wishes,
andrew-in-woking
the problem with adding code, is that it adds bulk. the classic example is Cubase audio software, where it is estimated that 50% of cpu power can be wasted in it constantly checking it's protection; and even this has been cracked by geniuses, though i think they have since 'retired' from the scene. anyway, i digress. with space at a premium with phones, getting into copy protection, nag screens, etc. is removing that space. plus from own experience and feedback from users, nag screens and reporting fraud options will get ignored. as 9 times out of 10 they have seeked the software out through unscrupulous sources. add to that, a developer has spent months streamlining their code, only to bolt on some fugly security, kinda depressing.
i dont think there is or will ever be a clear cut solution to copyright im afraid, i mean, look at windows lol.
I had no idea this was happening. Thanks for the heads up.
badaas said:
the problem with adding code, is that it adds bulk...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think the OP's suggestion is a good one. It doesn't need to be anything complicated or over the top. Simply text in the About screen will suffice.
I.e.
Help>>About>>"Widget v.1.xx, Developed on XDA-Forums as FREEWARE - If you've paid for this please report the seller to the proper authorities"
i think adding in the freeware statement would be a plus i think if A_C decided to add it in down at the buttom when you first start up S2U2 where it states what verison this is and A_C name would be a good time to have it scroll. If there were some way to have it keep marqueeing while the program is running or for it to do it when the screen wakes up i think as users of A_C's product it wouldn't affect me seeing this because the programs are just that great
Hey guys (mostly the senior/mod/admin folks, but anyone feel free to chime in). Could XDA implement vBulletin's (I think there is an official plugin/option... I may be wrong about this though; I cannot say for sure since I am not an admin on any site that uses vBulletin, $user = phpbbWhore reputation system? If it's not built into the latest version of the code, I'm sure there is a 3rd party plugin available from VBulletin's official site (I know of at least a few of those that exist and would help if needed).
My thought behind this is that sometimes someone posts some really useful information and adding a reply that says something like "+1 thanks!" almost seems like a waste of a post to me (I really dislike "filler"/OT threads, but I still want to give the person credit). However if I was able to give a person a point (+) or if someone was just being a jerk for no reason (-), I think more people would take the time to think before they posted. Plus, since we know "post count" mean nothing in terms of someone being a helpful person or not, this would allow new users to spot trustworthy/reliable folks.
My only qualm is that I don't know if XDA as a whole is mature enough to use this kind of system responsibly, but I have faith that any real abusers could be weeded out fairly quickly. I think it would be cool to at least trial run this. Thanks for your time .
Hi DeeBG,
Yeah, it's good idea generally, thou i'd prolly advocate XDA going a step further right off the bat, and implementing a point trading system as a supplement to the donate buttons, especially for those without easy access to paypal credit.
Reputation has issues when someone on the fringe of the group is battered down for being different. Like imagine someone says "Let's make an iPhone section!". They might lose a years reputation in like a day. At least with a point trading system you're dealing with actual assistance or virtual services, rather than base emotional responses or crowd bullying.
I'm still learning about XDA's donate system, which seems fairly arbitrary or opaque. Maybe someone can explain how well that system is working out so far.
Cheers.
Reputation is built into vB, looks like they opted to turn it off. Good thing, every forum I've been a part of / admin'd, it's been abused.
I7redd said:
Reputation has issues when someone on the fringe of the group is battered down for being different. Like imagine someone says "Let's make an iPhone section!". They might lose a years reputation in like a day. At least with a point trading system you're dealing with actual assistance or virtual services, rather than base emotional responses or crowd bullying.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The reputation system only works through "thanks", doesn't it? So your reputation cannot get worse, but only better.
I7redd said:
I'm still learning about XDA's donate system, which seems fairly arbitrary or opaque. Maybe someone can explain how well that system is working out so far.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's not much of a system - you can donate directly to xda, which will help cover costs of running the servers, or you can donate to individuals (like me ) whose work you like.
Well there are really two types of systems. One is where you can give a thumbs up or thumbs down on a comment (sometimes represented by a [+] or [-] sign), and then there is the "Thanks" system, as seen on such sites as http://androidforums.com.
I agree that the first system can and sadly usually is abused (I think I saw it work well on one private torrent site I used to belong to a long time ago). There is a somewhat "pack mentality" that some users can fall into, whether someone is "outed" (falsely or not) for being an abuser of the forums or sometimes members are found "guilty by association".
I would like to see at least a "Thanks" system in place, again the folks at androidforums.com (which I'm sure at least some of you are also members at or at least have been directed to a post there before) have this successfully working within their vBulletin-powered site and would happy to help XDA admins if needed (not that I don't have faith in the XDA site owners/coders, you guys are pretty awesome yourselves =p). Of course I would be happy to lend my ~10 years of PHP/MySQL/etc experience to the process if it'd help.
I would start a public poll, but I think it's really in the interests of the site owners (also they can probably setup a more wide-spread poll than I can if they want public opinion).
Your friend in code,
DeeBG =)
I think it would be good to show appreciation to other users but It would be abused knowing that you can knock down someone's reputation (last thing we need is more flaming)
Captainkrtek said:
I think it would be good to show appreciation to other users but It would be abused knowing that you can knock down someone's reputation (last thing we need is more flaming)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, that's why I think a system where you can ONLY give thanks would be cool. Again, forum admins, let me know if you need any assistance getting it up and working (it shouldn't add a performance performance hit to the backend database/system... the php code would be very light and the mysql db would maybe grow a few hundred kB since users without thanks wouldn't have any data).
Developer Bidding...
Livven said:
The reputation system only works through "thanks", doesn't it?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Still open to cheating using multiple accounts to "Thank" themselves here and there and everywhere.
It's perhaps harder to gain anything with requests from yourself, and gifting points to yourself, while offering up public solutions. Thou i wouldn't put it past someone to try.
It's not much of a system - you can donate directly to xda, which will help cover costs of running the servers, or you can donate to individuals (like me ) whose work you like.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hmm... There seems to be a growing trend on XDA towards "donation requests" or "developer bidding" in certain forums. (see Xperia x10 Froyo request topic for example).
It involves people collectively posting that they will each donate a small amount to their favorite cause. (Android on Samsung Wave being another good example)
The current running tallies of offered donations is also interesting idea, thou there is some concern that those who have offered to donate $10 or $20 dollars will actually do so once the developers have done their magic.
Again, the opaque or arbitrary nature of hidden donations is a problem here.
Without going as far as escrow payments system (for requests that could likely need time limits and a refund), a basic "pre-paid" point system should work pretty well. For instance, once a task is completed the points could then be traded back for paypal dollars, completing the "circle of trust".
Any other ideas on this?
(or is there already an active "services" marketplace here somewhere that i've perhaps overlooked?)
I've been a fan of this site for a long time. I don't post too much, but I have gained much information here. This site has been an invaluable part of my Android hobby. I own 5 Android phones and a Motorola Xoom tablet, and thanks to XDA they are all rooted with custom roms and I use each one confidently. This site is full of great information and helpful people.
However, as of late, XDA seems to be putting out a bad vibe to many of its users. I personally see this stemming from the fact that users are expecting far too much. Everyone feels entitled to everything, on their own terms. They make demands of developers that will benefit only themselves. Instead of helping new members find the info they are seeking, they'd rather berate and belittle them publicly. The act superior to anyone asking a question. And on and on(trying not to write a book here). I am watching as developers that have contributed so much be treated with little or no respect until they don't even want to be a part of XDA anymore. I am seeing new members being scared off by elitist, rude "veteran" members. Overall, more and more people are wanting to distance themselves from XDA.
We cannot blame the site admin or mods, though i do hope to see them push the site in a different direction soon. It is on our back, the users of XDA. We are XDA. We need to remember that the devs are doing what they do for free, and for Android as a whole, not us as individuals. What happened to the great sense of community with Android. IMO, that was one of the best aspects of being involved with Android. There is much more I could say, but I think the main points are made and you can fill in the blanks. I hope to see Android become a community again, where users help one another, don't expect everything to be tailored to them specifically, and share a bit of both gratitude and empathy.
I agree with you, but sadly I do not see Xda changing for the better anytime soon. Maybe not at all. The majority of the blame does lie with us, the users. But, the admin and mods must also take some of that blame, as they have allowed the current trend to continue as long as it has
sent using a black and Decker toaster oven and two wire coat hangers
abn75 said:
I agree with you, but sadly I do not see Xda changing for the better anytime soon. Maybe not at all. The majority of the blame does lie with us, the users. But, the admin and mods must also take some of that blame, as they have allowed the current trend to continue as long as it has
sent using a black and Decker toaster oven and two wire coat hangers
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Dude we get it, we understand your not happy, we are working on this so give us some time to work through the issues and quit berating us and maybe try helping us by offering solutions to the problems you see.
Ehh, what do you expect with family plans and children with phones? The smart phone demographic over the last 4 years has changed so dramatically. It's no longer just seen as a business tool, but rather the hip new gadget to have. So when you widen the scope and age of users the arrogance and lack of respect is increased and certainly magnified.
good day.
JimmyMcGee said:
Dude we get it, we understand your not happy, we are working on this so give us some time to work through the issues and quit berating us and maybe try helping us by offering solutions to the problems you see.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Are you a mod or admin? I'm assuming so by the wording in your post. Noone was berating anyone, especially the mod/admins. I said they weren't to blame, and the poster below me said users are most responsible. This was a post to call attention to an issue, and try to get forum members back into a more community oriented manner, and to NOT react like you did by sounding angry, snide, and pointing fingers.
Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk
chopper the dog said:
Ehh, what do you expect with family plans and children with phones? The smart phone demographic over the last 4 years has changed so dramatically. It's no longer just seen as a business tool, but rather the hip new gadget to have. So when you widen the scope and age of users the arrogance and lack of respect is increased and certainly magnified.
good day.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Good point indeed.
Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk
andr0id23 said:
Are you a mod or admin? I'm assuming so by the wording in your post. Noone was berating anyone, especially the mod/admins. I said they weren't to blame, and the poster below me said users are most responsible. This was a post to call attention to an issue, and try to get forum members back into a more community oriented manner, and to NOT react like you did by sounding angry, snide, and pointing fingers.
Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No Sir I appreciate your Post. abn has been complaining about our inaction for a while and we ARE looking to improve and it just gets a little old hearing the same complaint over and over when you are working to make this a Quality Forum everyone, including us, wants it to be. I do apologize for my perhaps over-reaction, but it is hard to be constantly beat up on. Yes, us Mods/Admins do deserve some blame. But we have recognized it and we are trying to resolve the issue.
We all just do our best.
Sent from my LG-P999 using XDA App
you need to consider that back in its earlier days, XDA was all about this lil' group of people with WinMo devices learning to rip their mobile OSes apart. as the site grew in size and popularity, more devs came in along with more end-users who feed upon the products of their kitchen. once the android explosion began, there was no other way around the fact that a multitude of users would flood in where as the number of devs coming in would be far smaller.
i still remember just over a year back when i got to cooking my own WinMo ROM the community was growing but there were still devs around where ever you looked ready to guide and help around but now that the site's more popular than ever people flock here expecting miracles and are not disappointed either. it's so addictive that you have to stick around for more. but sadly the number of devs don't grows as fast as their end-user counterparts. that's why you see this problem today. we need the newer member to be willing to learn on their own, being patient with the progress of other devs and most importantly...READING.
just my two cents.
Open tech forums are always ripe for attrition due to many reasons.
The question here is, do we cater to the users or do we cater to the developers? It's pretty obvious that without developers, XDA wouldn't be much of anything.
It's my opinion that the 'elitist' attitude which you speak of from the senior members is something that SHOULD be done, as their point is to protect the developers from being inundated with trivial questions and not detailed bug reports.
Kyphur, another XDA Moderator, had this to say back in 2008 (in a similar thread) when we were a bit smaller, and it still holds true:
kyphur said:
I think what a lot of people forget is that this is not a "make my phone neat & kewl" place.
As implied by the name this is technically a Developers forum/community.
Now what does that mean? Well first off it means that there is an expectation that if you are here then you want to customize your device but rather than just installing something that someone packaged you want to understand how it works and maybe even enhance it yourself.
When I first came here with a Blue Angel it was a different environment. PDA Phones were not embraced by the general public because of the expense and complexity (I paid over $400 for my BA). A $400 phone 4 years ago was expensive, today the Tilt is $300 after rebates but with inflation & the rise in the cost of other devices and the fact that there are other sources out there giving them away for $150 our neat bit of kit has become popular with mainstream users.
Now we have a flood of new users who are asking not "How can I do this myself" but more like "Give me the quick fix" without caring to understand the process. See if you read the threads then you get to experience the learning process, you see how the issues were investigated and confirmed. Then you get to watch the different attempts at resolution and learn why some failed while others worked. That is called Development.
The NooB backlash is coming from users who have walked in the development shoes and is directed mainly at those who don't care for the journey but just want the end result or destination.
As a Development Forum we are just as much (if not more) about the journey. I've read so many comments like "I don't have time to read all of the threads" or "I don't care how it works, just that it does". These very statements are contrary to the heart & soul of XDA-Devs and that is why the backlash is so strong.
Let me be very clear on this: IF YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT UNDERSTANDING THE JOURNEY THEN YOU PROBABLY SHOULDN'T BE HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE.
XDA-Devs is about developers & hackers helping each other and working together to get the most out of our devices by understanding them better than most.
XDA-Devs is not about helping everyone who wants a "Kewl bit of kit" make their phone better than the guy next to him.
Now do we go kicking users off who never contribute anything, NO. We tolerate it to an extent. Where the toleration ends is when these users start diluting the usefulness of the forum by repeating the same questions over and over again.
You ask us to understand your position. Well if you want to benefit from our experience and time then I think it is only fair that you understand our position.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think that there are problems here at XDA that are there partially because of the rather loose rules we have set in place.
Sure, the internet, like most places in our society, is one that is supposed to promote freedom of speech. But there is a monumental difference between debating and being immature. A large proportion of the members here grown adults, but it really, really doesn't seem anything remotely close to that quite a lot of the time. Quite a lot of "you ****ing prick"s and the like being thrown about between members. Quite frankly, it's ridiculous, like a bunch of rather scummy 13 year olds.
Part of that does seem to come from the allowance of swearing on the forums; not saying don't swear, because believe me, I'm the last person who'd say that...but I don't on here, merely because it's not the swearing or inappropriate language itself that causes the problem, but the behaviour that naturally comes with it. Many forums are banning the discussion of provocative topics such as Mac vs. PC, iOS vs Android etc. Obviously, this being a mobile device forum, that can't be done here, but there needs to be some moderator control over that. All because people can't help but be immature about it...
That's the worst bit of it.
As for developer vs. end-user, just look at the market now, as well as what the developers here are doing. Smartphones are now more accesible, and the variety between the OSs at their core is much smaller than it used to be. The developers are working hard to make the process of rooting, jailbreaking, any kind of software modification easier for the more technically inept user.
Developers can't expect this forum to stay a developer community if they are going to make their creations so easy to use So experienced users need to accept that XDA has now moved away from being what it's used to be. They need to try and be accomodating to less technical users.
However, the biggest problem here now are probably newer users. They simply don't read or search. Answers are having to be repeated over and over again, even when everything is in the OP...many users need to spend time reading, and they'll realise that a lot of the answers aren't even technical; just a bit of common sense and logical thinking and you'll get the answers you'll need.
In a way, a simple way of post once, sticky once, force end users to read it, and we'll get somewhere.
A lot of good posts here. I tried to word my OP carefully as to not point fingers. Or at least not to lay blame on any one group of people. And I can't claim to know the whole story as while I own a handful of Android devices, that is only but a small part of this site as a whole. I don't come close to visiting all the forums. I really like XDA. From what I see, it is one of the rare sites where thread, where i frequent, often stay on topic. This is due in part to the mods, and in part to the users directing newer members by telling them this isn't the right place to post, linking to an appropriate thread, or just giving a quick answer. However, it's when people start getting angry and calling other people out for not knowing something, being rude, blah blah blah, that I am seeing more of. If all someone has to say is "use the fu**ing search", or "wrong spot noob", there is really no reason to post anything at all. That isn't helping anyone. There are better ways of going about it.
And I think we all have to admit, the days of only the more technical users rooting and modding are coming to an end. Devs are making it easier, one click methods are popping up all over the place, everything is automated, etc. People no long need to learn what is going on when they root their devices. While I enjoy having that knowledge and using the abd method of rooting when there is a one click available, others certainly will not, and they often don't need to. Maybe this isn't the best decision in many of our eyes, but tt is a reality now. More and more people are hacking/modding/rooting every day, and many of them have not even used a command line. I mean hell, there is even an "adb for dummies program" that will install and set up adb for you in one click now!
Again, not point fingers, but I am saddened to see so many people arguing, so many snide, rude responses, people being so demanding and self-serving, and devs leaving the site. I realize that the site is bigger than ever, and that mods do this for free and don't want to waste time being "rudeness police". I don't have all the answers, just something Ive noticed for awhile now. Glad to hear the mods are working on it as well as they can. I know they don't want to see developers leaving. Let's face it, some of these developers have quite a following! Also, sorry they have to hear the same complaints over and over again, but, as I said, I'm glad they are looking into it(if there is even anything that can be done, and I thanks the mods, admin, devs, and users for making this such a great place to learn and share!
I am one million percent in agreement with this topic, but I think the blame is not xda per se... Now, this is MY OPINION, but the problem is as mentioned before, our current society... I said something similar on aamikam's MikG thread on the Evo forum, this is the result of the 21st century, where technology has made mankind do anything anywhere anytime with only a click, and the kids and teens of today are raised in this world of now, so is in their nature to have that state of mind, "I want this now"; and I know this is not all the world, but in general, this is the new way of life on this century, the age of now...
We can also blame the new parents of this era, the average parent now is in their mid 20s to 30s, low 40s and in general, are allowing their kids more privileges and liberties than they had just because "at your age I couldn't do it, but I'll let you do it, not like your grandpas who didn't allowed me do anything at all" and so on and so forth...
Anyway, just wanted to say something about this, good nite all..!
I just wanted to vent off about a trend that is starting to p*** me off greatly.
It is these so called 'Devs' that are 'cooking' ROM's and claiming to be Developers, then expect some form of payment for their 'work'.
Now before I get flamed, I am not talking about the recognised Developers on here who do some fantastic, complex work. I am quite willing and often do, donate as a token of my appreciation for their work and to help cover development costs.
I am talking the 'chancers' who take either a Stock ROM or AOSP (or indeed, another Dev's ROM), theme it a bit, add in some fixes and apps from other developers, then release it as a fantastically named ROM and ask numerous times in the first post for a donation.
This then leads to a thread full of posts asking the 'Dev' for fixes, who usually reply something like, "I'll look into it ", then wait for a real developer to make a fix elsewhere, and then include it in their ROM, inferring that they have fixed it.
I should state here that the tipping point for me today was a cooked ROM I saw, where the guy is not asking for donations per se, but has a 'wish list' on Amazon, a 'wish list' for f*** sake.
I know the Mods on this site have more than enough work on their hands, but couldn't we have a sort of two-tier system, whereby the submitted work could be scrutinized and a decision taken as to whether it has been 'cooked' or 'developed'. Then the person submitting could be advised as to whether they can call themselves a 'Chef' or a 'Dev'. Also some advice could be given about donations.........
lease report any abuse of the donation rules to us so we can deal with it appropriately.
Thankyou for raising some very valid points as well. Unfortunately though it's simply not viable to evaluate all releases.
Sent From My Fingers To Your Face......
Problem is you cant make it so only Recognized Devs can release ROMs either because there are so many good devs that are not recognized
Of course you are both correct. It would likely discourage people from trying to create ROM's and these guys (whether they cook or code) deserve all the plaudits they receive.
I should take a deep breath before sounding off .
That's what happens when you have to work over the holidays!
killall said:
...the guy is not asking for donations per se, but has a 'wish list' on Amazon
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I saw that too. I think the only reason I didn't report it was because I was so flabbergasted! (Ask the mods, I'm not shy when it comes to reporting stuff )
The thing that really got me was that it was mostly stuff around the $40-$60 range, some more! If it were things like USB cables and screen protectors that were only a few quid a go then I could accept it, but not the stuff he was asking for.
Edit: Found it and reported it. Let the mods decide.
I never ask, in fact I'm dead against it. If I do something its for my phone. Of course I will share it, but I did it for me. A few people have asked so now I include a charity link in my work. That way I don't know who donates and I feel no obligation to them to do more, or edit it to there wants, also I might be doing some good in the world. I feel this is the way to go. I rarely donate for fear of abuse of the system. And yeah, I recently saw a guy post a unworking ics port. Let other guys in the forum fix then ask for donations.
Sent from my GT-S5830 using xda premium