I've been a fan of this site for a long time. I don't post too much, but I have gained much information here. This site has been an invaluable part of my Android hobby. I own 5 Android phones and a Motorola Xoom tablet, and thanks to XDA they are all rooted with custom roms and I use each one confidently. This site is full of great information and helpful people.
However, as of late, XDA seems to be putting out a bad vibe to many of its users. I personally see this stemming from the fact that users are expecting far too much. Everyone feels entitled to everything, on their own terms. They make demands of developers that will benefit only themselves. Instead of helping new members find the info they are seeking, they'd rather berate and belittle them publicly. The act superior to anyone asking a question. And on and on(trying not to write a book here). I am watching as developers that have contributed so much be treated with little or no respect until they don't even want to be a part of XDA anymore. I am seeing new members being scared off by elitist, rude "veteran" members. Overall, more and more people are wanting to distance themselves from XDA.
We cannot blame the site admin or mods, though i do hope to see them push the site in a different direction soon. It is on our back, the users of XDA. We are XDA. We need to remember that the devs are doing what they do for free, and for Android as a whole, not us as individuals. What happened to the great sense of community with Android. IMO, that was one of the best aspects of being involved with Android. There is much more I could say, but I think the main points are made and you can fill in the blanks. I hope to see Android become a community again, where users help one another, don't expect everything to be tailored to them specifically, and share a bit of both gratitude and empathy.
I agree with you, but sadly I do not see Xda changing for the better anytime soon. Maybe not at all. The majority of the blame does lie with us, the users. But, the admin and mods must also take some of that blame, as they have allowed the current trend to continue as long as it has
sent using a black and Decker toaster oven and two wire coat hangers
abn75 said:
I agree with you, but sadly I do not see Xda changing for the better anytime soon. Maybe not at all. The majority of the blame does lie with us, the users. But, the admin and mods must also take some of that blame, as they have allowed the current trend to continue as long as it has
sent using a black and Decker toaster oven and two wire coat hangers
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Dude we get it, we understand your not happy, we are working on this so give us some time to work through the issues and quit berating us and maybe try helping us by offering solutions to the problems you see.
Ehh, what do you expect with family plans and children with phones? The smart phone demographic over the last 4 years has changed so dramatically. It's no longer just seen as a business tool, but rather the hip new gadget to have. So when you widen the scope and age of users the arrogance and lack of respect is increased and certainly magnified.
good day.
JimmyMcGee said:
Dude we get it, we understand your not happy, we are working on this so give us some time to work through the issues and quit berating us and maybe try helping us by offering solutions to the problems you see.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Are you a mod or admin? I'm assuming so by the wording in your post. Noone was berating anyone, especially the mod/admins. I said they weren't to blame, and the poster below me said users are most responsible. This was a post to call attention to an issue, and try to get forum members back into a more community oriented manner, and to NOT react like you did by sounding angry, snide, and pointing fingers.
Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk
chopper the dog said:
Ehh, what do you expect with family plans and children with phones? The smart phone demographic over the last 4 years has changed so dramatically. It's no longer just seen as a business tool, but rather the hip new gadget to have. So when you widen the scope and age of users the arrogance and lack of respect is increased and certainly magnified.
good day.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Good point indeed.
Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk
andr0id23 said:
Are you a mod or admin? I'm assuming so by the wording in your post. Noone was berating anyone, especially the mod/admins. I said they weren't to blame, and the poster below me said users are most responsible. This was a post to call attention to an issue, and try to get forum members back into a more community oriented manner, and to NOT react like you did by sounding angry, snide, and pointing fingers.
Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No Sir I appreciate your Post. abn has been complaining about our inaction for a while and we ARE looking to improve and it just gets a little old hearing the same complaint over and over when you are working to make this a Quality Forum everyone, including us, wants it to be. I do apologize for my perhaps over-reaction, but it is hard to be constantly beat up on. Yes, us Mods/Admins do deserve some blame. But we have recognized it and we are trying to resolve the issue.
We all just do our best.
Sent from my LG-P999 using XDA App
you need to consider that back in its earlier days, XDA was all about this lil' group of people with WinMo devices learning to rip their mobile OSes apart. as the site grew in size and popularity, more devs came in along with more end-users who feed upon the products of their kitchen. once the android explosion began, there was no other way around the fact that a multitude of users would flood in where as the number of devs coming in would be far smaller.
i still remember just over a year back when i got to cooking my own WinMo ROM the community was growing but there were still devs around where ever you looked ready to guide and help around but now that the site's more popular than ever people flock here expecting miracles and are not disappointed either. it's so addictive that you have to stick around for more. but sadly the number of devs don't grows as fast as their end-user counterparts. that's why you see this problem today. we need the newer member to be willing to learn on their own, being patient with the progress of other devs and most importantly...READING.
just my two cents.
Open tech forums are always ripe for attrition due to many reasons.
The question here is, do we cater to the users or do we cater to the developers? It's pretty obvious that without developers, XDA wouldn't be much of anything.
It's my opinion that the 'elitist' attitude which you speak of from the senior members is something that SHOULD be done, as their point is to protect the developers from being inundated with trivial questions and not detailed bug reports.
Kyphur, another XDA Moderator, had this to say back in 2008 (in a similar thread) when we were a bit smaller, and it still holds true:
kyphur said:
I think what a lot of people forget is that this is not a "make my phone neat & kewl" place.
As implied by the name this is technically a Developers forum/community.
Now what does that mean? Well first off it means that there is an expectation that if you are here then you want to customize your device but rather than just installing something that someone packaged you want to understand how it works and maybe even enhance it yourself.
When I first came here with a Blue Angel it was a different environment. PDA Phones were not embraced by the general public because of the expense and complexity (I paid over $400 for my BA). A $400 phone 4 years ago was expensive, today the Tilt is $300 after rebates but with inflation & the rise in the cost of other devices and the fact that there are other sources out there giving them away for $150 our neat bit of kit has become popular with mainstream users.
Now we have a flood of new users who are asking not "How can I do this myself" but more like "Give me the quick fix" without caring to understand the process. See if you read the threads then you get to experience the learning process, you see how the issues were investigated and confirmed. Then you get to watch the different attempts at resolution and learn why some failed while others worked. That is called Development.
The NooB backlash is coming from users who have walked in the development shoes and is directed mainly at those who don't care for the journey but just want the end result or destination.
As a Development Forum we are just as much (if not more) about the journey. I've read so many comments like "I don't have time to read all of the threads" or "I don't care how it works, just that it does". These very statements are contrary to the heart & soul of XDA-Devs and that is why the backlash is so strong.
Let me be very clear on this: IF YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT UNDERSTANDING THE JOURNEY THEN YOU PROBABLY SHOULDN'T BE HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE.
XDA-Devs is about developers & hackers helping each other and working together to get the most out of our devices by understanding them better than most.
XDA-Devs is not about helping everyone who wants a "Kewl bit of kit" make their phone better than the guy next to him.
Now do we go kicking users off who never contribute anything, NO. We tolerate it to an extent. Where the toleration ends is when these users start diluting the usefulness of the forum by repeating the same questions over and over again.
You ask us to understand your position. Well if you want to benefit from our experience and time then I think it is only fair that you understand our position.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think that there are problems here at XDA that are there partially because of the rather loose rules we have set in place.
Sure, the internet, like most places in our society, is one that is supposed to promote freedom of speech. But there is a monumental difference between debating and being immature. A large proportion of the members here grown adults, but it really, really doesn't seem anything remotely close to that quite a lot of the time. Quite a lot of "you ****ing prick"s and the like being thrown about between members. Quite frankly, it's ridiculous, like a bunch of rather scummy 13 year olds.
Part of that does seem to come from the allowance of swearing on the forums; not saying don't swear, because believe me, I'm the last person who'd say that...but I don't on here, merely because it's not the swearing or inappropriate language itself that causes the problem, but the behaviour that naturally comes with it. Many forums are banning the discussion of provocative topics such as Mac vs. PC, iOS vs Android etc. Obviously, this being a mobile device forum, that can't be done here, but there needs to be some moderator control over that. All because people can't help but be immature about it...
That's the worst bit of it.
As for developer vs. end-user, just look at the market now, as well as what the developers here are doing. Smartphones are now more accesible, and the variety between the OSs at their core is much smaller than it used to be. The developers are working hard to make the process of rooting, jailbreaking, any kind of software modification easier for the more technically inept user.
Developers can't expect this forum to stay a developer community if they are going to make their creations so easy to use So experienced users need to accept that XDA has now moved away from being what it's used to be. They need to try and be accomodating to less technical users.
However, the biggest problem here now are probably newer users. They simply don't read or search. Answers are having to be repeated over and over again, even when everything is in the OP...many users need to spend time reading, and they'll realise that a lot of the answers aren't even technical; just a bit of common sense and logical thinking and you'll get the answers you'll need.
In a way, a simple way of post once, sticky once, force end users to read it, and we'll get somewhere.
A lot of good posts here. I tried to word my OP carefully as to not point fingers. Or at least not to lay blame on any one group of people. And I can't claim to know the whole story as while I own a handful of Android devices, that is only but a small part of this site as a whole. I don't come close to visiting all the forums. I really like XDA. From what I see, it is one of the rare sites where thread, where i frequent, often stay on topic. This is due in part to the mods, and in part to the users directing newer members by telling them this isn't the right place to post, linking to an appropriate thread, or just giving a quick answer. However, it's when people start getting angry and calling other people out for not knowing something, being rude, blah blah blah, that I am seeing more of. If all someone has to say is "use the fu**ing search", or "wrong spot noob", there is really no reason to post anything at all. That isn't helping anyone. There are better ways of going about it.
And I think we all have to admit, the days of only the more technical users rooting and modding are coming to an end. Devs are making it easier, one click methods are popping up all over the place, everything is automated, etc. People no long need to learn what is going on when they root their devices. While I enjoy having that knowledge and using the abd method of rooting when there is a one click available, others certainly will not, and they often don't need to. Maybe this isn't the best decision in many of our eyes, but tt is a reality now. More and more people are hacking/modding/rooting every day, and many of them have not even used a command line. I mean hell, there is even an "adb for dummies program" that will install and set up adb for you in one click now!
Again, not point fingers, but I am saddened to see so many people arguing, so many snide, rude responses, people being so demanding and self-serving, and devs leaving the site. I realize that the site is bigger than ever, and that mods do this for free and don't want to waste time being "rudeness police". I don't have all the answers, just something Ive noticed for awhile now. Glad to hear the mods are working on it as well as they can. I know they don't want to see developers leaving. Let's face it, some of these developers have quite a following! Also, sorry they have to hear the same complaints over and over again, but, as I said, I'm glad they are looking into it(if there is even anything that can be done, and I thanks the mods, admin, devs, and users for making this such a great place to learn and share!
I am one million percent in agreement with this topic, but I think the blame is not xda per se... Now, this is MY OPINION, but the problem is as mentioned before, our current society... I said something similar on aamikam's MikG thread on the Evo forum, this is the result of the 21st century, where technology has made mankind do anything anywhere anytime with only a click, and the kids and teens of today are raised in this world of now, so is in their nature to have that state of mind, "I want this now"; and I know this is not all the world, but in general, this is the new way of life on this century, the age of now...
We can also blame the new parents of this era, the average parent now is in their mid 20s to 30s, low 40s and in general, are allowing their kids more privileges and liberties than they had just because "at your age I couldn't do it, but I'll let you do it, not like your grandpas who didn't allowed me do anything at all" and so on and so forth...
Anyway, just wanted to say something about this, good nite all..!
Related
In light of what I considered to be a couple of very disturbing developments, I think at this point, a dialogue/debate needs to be opened on what rights/copyrights a contributor has on the intellectual material he/she posts here.
Sakajati was abruptly censored when he suggested that future roms may be administered through a tool bar and not administered through this site.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=3288089&postcount=10332
And the way that BeyondInvisible was driven off this site by the " takers " and not supported by this site. ( the people that stole his new pay/per icons and published them for free, should have been banned). http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=2798052#post2798052 because he dared suggest that it might be time for all the takers to pony up.
When your work becomes widely successful ala; olinex, jockyw, sakajati, MobileMatt, JCKOTZE, Schap, in the kaiser forums, at what point does toiling around in poverty while you work hard for others for free, become less attractive than selling your work?
Who now owns your work , you, XDA, is it copyrighted? When you decide to take it private what ownership rights does XDA retain?
If you request that XDA remove your work, can they leave an archive of it?
I love this site it is the greatest resource on the net for PDA's but I think these subjects could use a good going over by the Mods and the membership.
Dennis
Removing SJ's toolbar was NOT censorship, regardless of how you're trying to spin it. We received several complaints from users who don't feel comfortable being required to install a toolbar just to use their favorite ROM... ask any Mod, we all get the emails. The action I took (editing the toolbar links) is the most benign available to Moderators. I could have closed the thread, and moved it to a Mod-only section while the investigation/discussion took place. Instead, I opted to merely edit out the download links.
There is no justification for requiring users to install a toolbar into Internet Explorer (or any other browser in the Windows environment) just so they can have access to a Chef's ROMs.
Now while a decision has not yet been made, I can confidently say that if SJ had promoted his toolbar as a tool to help all users of his ROMs get the latest "breaking" new on development, and NOT required it in order to obtain the password required for flashing, then we [most likely] would have allowed the toolbar to stay linked on XDA.
I think part of the problem here is that many seem to think that they are entitled to what the chefs produce for nothing. The hours spent porting and testing should count for something but for many it is just expected. I for one have no problem contributing what I can when I'm able. It is too bad that more don't do this.
Kirby
Intellectual property laws protect the inventor/creator rights of ownership to their intellectual property in cyber media. So there is no fear but a concern for any coder that his or her work marketing could be abused or it could be stolen. That is the risk one takes without his or her choice when they share their creations with others.
I also read XDA rules, and it clearly states that soliciting anything for money is prohibited. many cooks are on the border line of asking for money rather encouraging donation for sharing the fruit of their work with others. I do not have a problem with that and believe the majority here share my sentiment. I have a problem however with someone begging for donation without any substantiating efforts, invention or creation to merit the donation solicitation. That being said, I believe SJ was a true gentleman in all of his posts and never infringed on callus donation request; having a tool bar that he feels if XDA was out ( and it was out few times in the past month) as an optional site but not alternative support site that can be accessed where members can help each other is not a bad idea.
We seem to forget sometimes that XDA site was created to help one developer another achieve excellence in the field of e-communication.
so again, I have no problem with SJ promoting his tool bar as long as it is not used to ransom donation for solving issues and i am sure like I said earlier, this is NOT SJ's intention.
NotATreoFan said:
Removing SJ's toolbar was NOT censorship, regardless of how you're trying to spin it. We received several complaints from users who don't feel comfortable being required to install a toolbar just to use their favorite ROM...
There is no justification for requiring users to install a toolbar into Internet Explorer (or any other browser in the Windows environment) just so they can have access to a Chef's ROMs.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That was one of my major points, there " was " no requirement . because there " was no rom ". You struck preemptively to something that had not happened yet, because it might happen in the future. You squashed his right to promote a private project , as many many people do here, because a few ungrateful people complained that in the future they might have to obtain the rom it SJ's way.
Had he stated that the next rom would be available only by joining his website, would you have shut him down?
My question is, at what point does a chef have the right to take his work private, and how , without any interference from this site.
Believe me, I am not trying to "spin " anything against anyone, I have a great deal of respect for you and all you have done for this forum ( we miss your input in the Kaiser world ) I just thought that it was a heavy handed response ( and yes censorship ) to something that hadn't even happened yet.
A simple PM could have alieviated the situation for the time being, while the Mods figured it out. Not a head on erase everything, assault SJ's right to promote his work and wares.
And I would say again, that the integrity of this site depends on people to share openly and honestly without fear of unjustified reprisal, SJ has said that he will not for the time being, take any new roms private. I think that is enough for all his links to be restored. If not, what other definitions of censorship do you have ?
JimmyMcGee said:
Your opinion is respected. But the appearance was that he WAS requiring people to use the Toolbar to get the Password for the ROM.
Sakajati can do what ever he wants with his ROM, if he chooses to require the Toolbar, that's his choice. If XDA, the people who maintain and provide some presence for his ROM here say that's not in the spirit of the community, then he can release the ROMs on his website soley.
Basically you have to follow certain rules to post your stuff on SourceForge, so think of at as the same thing.
You seem to be the only one with a problem. sakajati is a great guy and is being cooperative in the investigation.
There is written law and common law. This falls more into to "Common Law" area, which is why I said it was a Grey area.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I brought this over from the Hyperdragon thread to here, to discuss.
I just want everyone to know, this has more to do with the big picture than it has to do with sakajati. This has nothing to do with NATF or with jimmy and I am probably not the only one who has a problem with the way it was handled. I am just the one with the big mouth. And we all know that sakajati would never say a word or give anything less than his full cooperation.
I just want someone to tell me not just for SJ, but for the good of the whole community and as a precedent for future complaints of this type, why SJ couldn't have been shot a PM asking what his intentions were, and if they approached a grey area, he could have been informed and he would have cooperated. End of any problem. It is not like there was any urgency, as I said before, there was no requirement because there was no rom.
And if people did over react then it is good for everyone to get a dialogue started. That is what this site is all about.
Thanks guys for doing a great job !
denco7 said:
That was one of my major points, there " was " no requirement . because there " was no rom ". You struck preemptively to something that had not happened yet, because it might happen in the future. You squashed his right to promote a private project , as many many people do here, because a few ungrateful people complained that in the future they might have to obtain the rom it SJ's way.
Had he stated that the next rom would be available only by joining his website, would you have shut him down?
My question is, at what point does a chef have the right to take his work private, and how , without any interference from this site.
Believe me, I am not trying to "spin " anything against anyone, I have a great deal of respect for you and all you have done for this forum ( we miss your input in the Kaiser world ) I just thought that it was a heavy handed response ( and yes censorship ) to something that hadn't even happened yet.
A simple PM could have alieviated the situation for the time being, while the Mods figured it out. Not a head on erase everything, assault SJ's right to promote his work and wares.
And I would say again, that the integrity of this site depends on people to share openly and honestly without fear of unjustified reprisal, SJ has said that he will not for the time being, take any new roms private. I think that is enough for all his links to be restored. If not, what other definitions of censorship do you have ?
I brought this over from the Hyperdragon thread to here, to discuss.
I just want everyone to know, this has more to do with the big picture than it has to do with sakajati. This has nothing to do with NATF or with jimmy and I am probably not the only one who has a problem with the way it was handled. I am just the one with the big mouth. And we all know that sakajati would never say a word or give anything less than his full cooperation.
I just want someone to tell me not just for SJ, but for the good of the whole community and as a precedent for future complaints of this type, why SJ couldn't have been shot a PM asking what his intentions were, and if they approached a grey area, he could have been informed and he would have cooperated. End of any problem. It is not like there was any urgency, as I said before, there was no requirement because there was no rom.
And if people did over react then it is good for everyone to get a dialogue started. That is what this site is all about.
Thanks guys for doing a great job !
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My Friend read this...
sakajati said:
Just uploaded the cab to download center. It will add [Slide down for call functions] feature.
*** Please all of you install my toolbar [mod edit: link removed], this is the tool that will keep you updated and you will receive alert/message via the toolbar for news and announcements regularly from me. If you're using HyperDragon ROMs, you have to install it since the next rom release will be password protected and you'll get the password only via this toolbar . No adware, spyware, crapware, underware, read the Toolbar Privacy [mod edit: link removed]for details.***
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Read the Green Parts. The general consensus is IF sakajati REQUIRES people to use the Toolbar to use his ROMs, he is no longer contributing to the XDA ROM Community.
sakajati is ALLOWED and not censored to require this if he so chooses. However the ramifications are, that he would no longer be allowed to advertise his ROM here.
The "common law" rule is, if you post a ROM on XDA, you are contributing to the community and the ROM shall have NO STRINGS attached. No requirement to Give Money, no requirement to have a toolbar installed.
If sakajati wishes to offer his toolbar as a way to stay in "constant contact" with him, then I don't see a problem. But the release of the ROM shall not be contingent on the toolbar. At least not while it is advertised on XDA.
And P.S. lets not get into calling ROMs Intellectual Property, because honestly, ROMs are Microsoft's I.P. All chefs do is tweak, improve and skin ROMs. And I don't mean to take anything away from chefs awesome work by saying that. So saying sakajati's ROM is his I.P. is like saying you taking you Toyota Celica, painting it Pink with Green Racing strips and boring out the engine, makes that car your I.P.
But as NATF has said, no final desicsion has been made, I only type this reply to give full disclosure, to show that our intentions are not to censor.
Thanks.
JimmyMcGee said:
If sakajati wishes to offer his toolbar as a way to stay in "constant contact" with him, then I don't see a problem. But the release of the ROM shall not be contingent on the toolbar. At least not while it is advertised on XDA.
But as NATF has said, no final decision has been made, I only type this reply to give full disclosure, to show that our intentions are not to censor.
Thanks.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Since this has all been put to rest, I just have some final thoughts and then I'll shut up.
It was never about XDA's/Mod's disapproval as to what he intended to do, you all are entrusted with the success and smooth running of this site and have every right to administer this site as you see fit, (as I have every right to question why ) And it was not really about SJ, he was just the vehicle of my overall concern about creative people leaving this site because of real and perceived ( do it our way or get out ) disagreements.
I guess I just wanted to know, if people decided to take their projects private,such as a new rom, would they still be welcome here to support older projects or develop new projects here ( that fell within XDA guildlines ) and while supporting their projects, could they in a subtle non-commercial way, direct people to private/financially enhancing projects.
And of course I still object to the way it was handled, that sort of, " we are taking it all down until we decide " way of doing it, is something that happens to noobs that don't know any better. Not to someone who has done as much for, and contributed so much to the Kaiser community as sakajati has done.
The Mods always preach, " if you have a dispute with another member, take it to PM, " Unfortunately this great advise wasn't followed, and I am glad that SJ was not offended by this and did not pack up his toys and go home ( like unfortunately other members have done )
And I am sorry if " I " have offended anyone, that was not my intention. I love this site and think that discussions like this benefit the longevity of this site. I am glad everything has been resolved and I will shut up and go away now
Oh yeah ........one more thing
And P.S. lets not get into calling ROMs Intellectual Property, because honestly, ROMs are Microsoft's I.P. All chefs do is tweak, improve and skin ROMs. And I don't mean to take anything away from chefs awesome work by saying that. So saying sakajati's ROM is his I.P. is like saying you taking you Toyota Celica, painting it Pink with Green Racing strips and boring out the engine, makes that car your I.P.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Tell that to Chip Foose and Orange County Choppers. They take other people's parts, design and tweak and create masterpieces worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. Your telling me a Foose Design isn't intellectual property?
denco7 said:
The Mods always preach, " if you have a dispute with another member, take it to PM, " Unfortunately this great advise wasn't followed, and I am glad that SJ was not offended by this and did not pack up his toys and go home ( like unfortunately other members have done )
And I am sorry if " I " have offended anyone, that was not my intention. I love this site and think that discussions like this benefit the longevity of this site. I am glad everything has been resolved and I will shut up and go away now
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is not an issue of personal disagreement, it is a violation of our rules of operation. When we see questionable activity, we will always take the action of stopping the activity, contacting the OP, and trying to resolve it quickly. I am sure SJ understands this as well as anyone here that it was nothing personal, and simply just S.O.P. around here. It's a lot easier to take down a problem for a couple days, and then let it back up with an apology than it is to remove it after we've debated.
As for you question about prior contributions, of course anyone is welcome to support anything that they have and continue to offer that is in compliance with our rules here. Nothing even stops a user from selling some stuff, and giving others away. It's just that they can't post the stuff they're selling here, just the donation ware.
IP
I have just a couple points. The Phoenix team has a separate website we use for tracking bugs and other discussion so we don't clutter up this site. However our intent is to foster creativity, open communication and cooperation among users and chefs which we hope results in better products for the users of this site. So don't always think a private website like ours or SJ's is a bad thing.
However, I would like to point out what was only stated one time in the thread--the guts of these roms are the ip of microsoft and htc. Now as chef's we find other bits and pieces that are added--and these are the ip of their creators. Sometimes we contribute our own ip--like skins, icons and very specific know how to get the roms to help our devices perform at peak efficiency. But anyone who would try to take a rom private and sell it, would have some major issues without first getting license to do so from MS, HTC and those other people who own the other intellectual property.
There are many examples of apps that were developed by talented people here that have gone commercial. Those apps are still discussed and linked to here because they all have trial periods. There is nothing wrong with commercializing your own ip..The wrong comes when you commercialize ip that you don't own or haven't properly license.
So let's continue a great tradition of creativity. I believe that this site is the primary reason that HTC and microsoft keep trying to make a better operating system. This site is where many ideas come from. This site gives the OS life beyond the normal experience.
denco7 said:
(snip)
Oh yeah ........one more thing
Tell that to Chip Foose and Orange County Choppers. They take other people's parts, design and tweak and create masterpieces worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. Your telling me a Foose Design isn't intellectual property?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Pfft Those Posers
some confused thinking here -
A cook can ask for a contribution for his time but there is no way he can claim that a cooked rom is his IPR because it's belongs to someone else start with - no licence to modify has been granted!
Now creating programs from scratch, that's a different issue and how they want to deal with payment is upto them.
my theory is whoever created the forum and then got ppl to volounter to mantain it
ITS THERE FORUM
Its really up to them what they want to do
With so many haters and detractors crawling out of the woodwork to bash WP7 at any sign of a positive post, is there really a point to this forum? All it does is give the naysayers a place to congregate and spread their bias (as if there wasnt enough of that already) and the mods reluctance to do anything doesnt help but if only the individual device forums existed it would be much harder for them to mount organised attacks. Time to kill this forum?
I voted no. I believe this "General" forum serves a vital role to WP7. The hate is everywhere and closing this forum would only give the haters what they want. Just like the philosophy of a church, if "sinners" come for malicious purposes, the "Word" will transform them...lol
Let the haters come. We will transform into lovers through patience and kindness.
I voted 'Yes'. Criticism is good, without criticism how do you want any product to improve? The problem is criticism isn't accepted here, if you raise any issue you're automatically an android troll or an iSheep. Anything Apple and Google do well is labelled as **** and Skydrive is like a universal medicine to every illness in the world. Sure there are indeed a couple of WP7 haters around but most people who criticise it aren't and they're still being accused of started flame wars.
The issue with this forum is people who can't admit this OS has fault, i.e. almost everyone.
I clicked no.
Because sometime, you want to discuss something related to Windows Phones , not only one device. You have no where suitable to post, except this forum.
Also, this forum keep me quite up-to-date with all Windows Phones news and tricks.
Haters are everywhere, you can't avoid them, but you need mod to take care of them.
I voted no because there are few other places on XDA to discuss WP7. BTW, I enjoy heathy and constructuve debate, but far too often a thread is opened only to be flooded with WP7 is crap posts that are neither helpful nor constructive criticism.
No
I voted No.
This forum is far more active for me than the HD7 forum. Yes it gets annoying when people start trolling, which is a different level to general complaints about the OS. At the end of the day they are us idiots of the other end of cyber-space. Mythical creatures not to be taken seriously.
For example, Peew971 has many valid complaints about the OS, but I do not class him (you) as a troll at all.
Life does not revolve around consumer products and shouldnt be taken so seriously, but for some reason people get so worked up about it. I wonder how many people on WP7 complained about their previous OS, hence why they adopted WP7.
I personally joined XDA with my arrival of the HD2. I loved it. Those were the golden years, but I found myself flashing WInMo ROMs too often. Then I had the dual-booted WinMo/Andriod. Then got bored and finally flashed with Gingerbread, completely removing WinMo. I found Gingerbread to be a disappointing downgrade to the Desire HD ROM I had...however, did I care...nope...because I was days away from getting rid of the phone and playing with the HD7.
I voted "No" as well.
Where else would I get a good laugh from jealous Android and iOS fanboys? Because we all know they secretly wish for live tiles, zune and the people hub but they just won't admit it!!
And just in case anyone was wondering... yes, that was sarcasm
Peew971 said:
I voted 'Yes'. Criticism is good, without criticism how do you want any product to improve? The problem is criticism isn't accepted here, if you raise any issue you're automatically an android troll or an iSheep. Anything Apple and Google do well is labelled as **** and Skydrive is like a universal medicine to every illness in the world. Sure there are indeed a couple of WP7 haters around but most people who criticise it aren't and they're still being accused of started flame wars.
The issue with this forum is people who can't admit this OS has fault, i.e. almost everyone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There's a huge difference between criticism and the BS posted by the core haters here. The missing features are always highlighted while the unique things WP7 does are downplayed and brushed aside. Plus continuously calling the OS beta, crap and deliberately ignoring real problems that have affected its growth like poor marketing and biased sales reps and instead just concentrating on the numbers alone dont encourage discussion. Its always how WP7 is behind, android does this, blah, blah, blah but the parts that WP7 owners enjoy like the design, smoothness, speed, Xbox, Office, deep linking, double sided tiles, Zune player and other features are dismissed. WP7 is the only OS that is being held up to be perfect from its release and its been a constant bash-fest ever since its release.
Voted no. We need good moderating. The thing is we just don't get pure WP discussions. In nearly every thread Android and iOS are beeing mentioned so everytime it's more like WP7 vs Android/iOS. I just want a pure WP forum without those dumb comparisons and to get rid of those people who cannot accept that there are people who like WP especially those who don't own a WP device and throwing things into threads like "android is the best" whatever. I really cannot stand those people.
You're absolutely right about the mods refusing to do a damn thing. eric, while completely insane and overly fanboyish, did have valid points in pointing out that people in this section are complete dickheads. I got a forum warning thing for calling another member out on his bull****, yet the mod repeatedly allowed him to go at other users, in that thread and others, I'm assuming just because he was spreading negative information. This section has become an area that I love, but hate to come here just because I know every thread, even ones titled "Come in here and say what you love about WP7" will ultimately have some idiot come in and say "nothing, Android is superior to the Polish crowd"
Peew971 said:
I voted 'Yes'. Criticism is good, without criticism how do you want any product to improve? The problem is criticism isn't accepted here, if you raise any issue you're automatically an android troll or an iSheep. Anything Apple and Google do well is labelled as **** and Skydrive is like a universal medicine to every illness in the world. Sure there are indeed a couple of WP7 haters around but most people who criticise it aren't and they're still being accused of started flame wars.
The issue with this forum is people who can't admit this OS has fault, i.e. almost everyone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This seems to be the impression I get. I was, or should say still am, debating the move. I want to see what the people say, good and bad, but at times the feedback / comments seem more polarizing than the Android banter. I get it's still growing, and with a limited user base (which naturally results in the bigger fans being more vocal) you are going to have the more swinging opinions being voiced. I'm still trying to understand all this constructive criticism I am seeing (issues I, and would think many, would find fault in) being dismissed for some silly reasons. I hear simple **** being brushed off for the sake of a liquid bm-style UI experience.
There appears to be a few glaring issues, and more than a few minor niggles, that are dismissed on the account of said poster not finding a need for this. Maybe it's the number of users to posters here, but I've seen some more legitimate critiquing and discussion within the Android camp. And that's saying something, considering Android users seem to be the fastest to sling the "****."
Sent from m-IUI
http://www.reddit.com/r/Android/com...le_to_launch_android_50_jelly_bean_in/c3ruc2t
He has half a point made less important and taken less seriously by the inability to express it coherantly. The language he uses seems to me that he has more of a grudge than anything. His post is one of pure anger. I agree things could be done better. I've mentioned the use of github for ICS joint development many times but it never really happened.
That said, I have learned a lot here. I have always felt I have managed to get the help I need in a thread for a particular ROM... IF there is an answer and I have also been able to give the help needed. There is nothing wrong with "one-man-operations". Most the "****" people do here has already been done so its not like it needs to be documented and made available in every ROM.
Yes its chaos, but its our chaos and we understand it. I guess he never made it to 10 posts.
That guy is a moron.
Where to begin.
1. XDA is not a software company, it is, in fact, a forum. So to attack its "forum like organization"...just sounds stupid. It's like saying "look at that freaking tea kettle, brewing tea, how dare it!" This wasn't set up, intended for or was ever thought to be a business-type, engineering/programming atmosphere. It's a chill spot, like a beach, for nerds who love their smartphones. It's 2012, grow the hell up.
2. XDA is driven by user generated content, not by employees. ROMs, kernels, tweaks, mods, themes, etc are done by people like teachers, writers, auto mechanics, etc etc. It's a hobby for us. To give them crap for not following proper programming documentation is simply wrong (although everyone who releases a kernel must follow the rules of the GPL, that's a given). These people aren't engineers and don't have degrees in this stuff (well, most don't ), they're hobbyists. To attack them is to attack the spirit of XDA: which is caring, sharing and enjoying yourself. This is not a business, to assume that it should be run like one is asinine.
This guy is a dirtbag and a blowhard. This is a giant, dysfunctional, international family of people who just happen to love their smartphones. We tweak things as we like them, release them for whoever wants to try them and just hang out and discuss stuff. That guy is the next door neighbor who hates loud music and hot chicks doing keg stands on his lawn.
Ignore him, he's just angry because things aren't exactly to his specifications and he wants a rise out of everyone. He's what the interwebz calls a "troll".
rootSU said:
The language he uses seems to me that he has more of a grudge than anything. His post is one of pure anger.
Agree Completely
That said, I have learned a lot here.
Agree more so than anything +infinity
Yes its chaos, but its our chaos and we understand it. I guess he never made it to 10 posts.
+1 on that, I know exactly what everything means
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
PoorCollegeGuy said:
That guy is a moron.
Where to begin.
1. XDA is not a software company, it is, in fact, a forum. So to attack its "forum like organization"...just sounds stupid. It's like saying "look at that freaking tea kettle, brewing tea, how dare it!"
lol
This wasn't set up, intended for or was ever thought to be a business-type, engineering/programming atmosphere. It's a chill spot, like a beach, for nerds who love their smartphones. It's 2012, grow the hell up.
2. XDA is driven by user generated content, not by employees. ROMs, kernels, tweaks, mods, themes, etc are done by people like teachers, writers, auto mechanics, etc etc. It's a hobby for us. To give them crap for not following proper programming documentation is simply wrong (although everyone who releases a kernel must follow the rules of the GPL, that's a given). These people aren't engineers and don't have degrees in this stuff (well, most don't ), they're hobbyists. To attack them is to attack the spirit of XDA: which is caring, sharing and enjoying yourself. This is not a business, to assume that it should be run like one is asinine.
This guy is a dirtbag and a blowhard. This is a giant, dysfunctional, international family of people who just happen to love their smartphones. We tweak things as we like them, release them for whoever wants to try them and just hang out and discuss stuff. That guy is the next door neighbor who hates loud music and hot chicks doing keg stands on his lawn.
Ignore him, he's just angry because things aren't exactly to his specifications and he wants a rise out of everyone. He's what the interwebz calls a "troll".
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's nice to see views from a different perspective, it sort of made sense reading that (and ofcourse it did perfectly to him), since it wasn't taking into account what xda is and always has been.
Correct me if I'm wrong but CyanogenMod started out as a one man project right? It gotten so big that it really needs the documentation, traceability, bug tracking, in other words the "system" that he spoke of. So there... funny.
I saw this posted on some other ROM site that was once an active member here on XDA, as expected they agree with what was posted.
I think what he was complaining about is that there is no formal place for developers to go, create, document and update their projects - and just used xda as somewhere where he could aim his rant since it's the place to go if you want something for your android phone.
That being said, it'd be nice to see cooperation as seen with the CM team, things would probably get done a lot faster and more efficiently, as for people starting their own projects and turning them into "donate to me" buttons.. if that's all you want then how about making an account for the donations and spreading it evenly between the team.
We all know one of the biggest gripes about Windows Phone is the lack of a few key apps. I know that I frequently contact a few companies to let them know that I am looking forward to a Windows Phone version of their existing apps and I’m sure others do as well. So companies get a smattering of requests from some users here and there.
Just wondering if perhaps we focus on one or a few particular apps at a time with many people emailing, tweeting, comments on Facebook etc in a sustained way to let them see that there is actual interest from a large number of users in the Windows Phone community. Who knows, maybe if there is enough noise, some of them will rethink their stand.
Not sure if this is the right place for this, but seemed like good place to see what people think.
Thoughts?
Bad idea. Software business works by different way. No one cares about your tweets or fb posts or forum noise - it's just a children game.
I agree that it may not make a difference, however companies often do actually listen to what people are saying. If it sounds like there is a demand, some companies who have been on the fence, may well pull the trigger and make something happen.
I've had luck getting companies to do things when I ask publicly that they wouldn't do when I asked privately. So it seems like getting more people asking publicly may well help in some instances.
willp2 said:
I agree that it may not make a difference, however companies often do actually listen to what people are saying. If it sounds like there is a demand, some companies who have been on the fence, may well pull the trigger and make something happen.
I've had luck getting companies to do things when I ask publicly that they wouldn't do when I asked privately. So it seems like getting more people asking publicly may well help in some instances.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Other than XDA, if you also post this on WPCentral forum, you will get much much much better and enthusiastic response for such requests. There is a list of app-requests somwhere in this forum too, if you wanted a place to pick apps-in-demand from.
I'm afraid you are mistaken. Companies are "listening" their marketing stuff, investors and personal CEO/chairman opinions. Neither facebook posts nor tweets can change company budget, marketing strategy or development roadmap. In fact, the most companies are controlled by the intelligent and informed people, so you may be sure they already knew about WP7 platform
P.S. Let me guess: you've never worked in software industry, don't you?
Thanks for the comments on WPCentral forum, good point. More regular users over there.
sensboston - You made my point exactly. Companies are listening to marketing staff, investors and personal CEO/chairman opinions. Those people, especially the marketing types pay attention to what the outside world is saying. If they see noise about a particular topic, it gets their attention.
For instance, if that company releases a new version of an app that has big problems, they'll hear about it first from all those social sources and they will generally try to react quickly to quite down the noise.
Not that it matters or even relevant to what I'm talking about here, but I've been in the software industry for over 20 years.
willp2 said:
For instance, if that company releases a new version of an app that has big problems, they'll hear about it first from all those social sources and they will generally try to react quickly to quite down the noise.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's a completely different case. Yes, I agree - huge noise/rumors about critical bug in popular app/software can push (some) companies to force fix or workaround immediately (good example is a Nokia representatives, who's - I believe - are monitoring XDA forums daily)
But porting app to the different platform (especially to WP7!) is very complicated. Most primary titles are written on C++ and uses native code/API calls. "Porting" C++ code to C#/Silverlight isn't just "porting"; it's much more close to complete rewrite. Also WP7 platform support means an additional tier of Q&A and etc. and so on (if you are really worked more than 20 years in industry you can easily extend these requirements).
100 or even 1000 facebook posts and forum requests can't show you a real app demand but statistics can. Unfortunately WP7 market share currently is too small (at the end of 2011 it was about 2%).
I thought there was a similar thread already, but if not then perhaps we can do that. I heard a company saying, they'll port it to windows phone if they enough demands.
I do get that it's not a trivial task.
Again I was really just getting at the many companies who are already considering moving to Windows Phone but are on the fence.
As we know more and more apps are being ported every week so many companies already have been thinking about, planning or are already doing it. In some cases a little public pressure may at least confirm to them that people are interested and perhaps move things along.
lamborg - sorry if someone else already brought this up in another thread, I did search around first.
willp2 said:
I do get that it's not a trivial task.
Again I was really just getting at the many companies who are already considering moving to Windows Phone but are on the fence.
As we know more and more apps are being ported every week so many companies already have been thinking about, planning or are already doing it. In some cases a little public pressure may at least confirm to them that people are interested and perhaps move things along.
lamborg - sorry if someone else already brought this up in another thread, I did search around first.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am not sure either but I think I have seen a similar thread, Anyway, if that cannot be found.
BTW it was I think Draw Something which said about the enough demand.
Maybe try crowd funding
Maybe this is an area where crowd funding could help.
I mean, people can make noise about want for a particular WP7 app as much as they like, but at the end of the day somebody has to pay for development, in some way, either directly or indirectly.
A successful crowd funding campaign for an app would probably prove much more that there really is demand than just so many Facebook postings.
Of course there is also the danger that such a campaign fails miserably and shows that there isn't real demand, just a very vocal but small minority wanting the app...
rbrunner7 said:
Maybe this is an area where crowd funding could help.
I mean, people can make noise about want for a particular WP7 app as much as they like, but at the end of the day somebody has to pay for development, in some way, either directly or indirectly.
A successful crowd funding campaign for an app would probably prove much more that there really is demand than just so many Facebook postings.
Of course there is also the danger that such a campaign fails miserably and shows that there isn't real demand, just a very vocal but small minority wanting the app...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Guarantee this would not get noticed. Most users on the site don't even donate to the devs that post apps here that they use, let alone donate to some fund for the possibility of an app being ported.
Standard contractor rates for a software engineer are about $100 to $150 per hour. Salaried devs make less, but the cost is close to the same for companies because of benefits packages. So, 1 day of dev time for 1 developer is going to cost around $1000. My guess is a crowd fund would not even reach $100. But even if $10000 were collected, that would only cover a team of 5 for 2 days. And, 5 days for 20 business days would cost $100000. And this is is exactly why companies have been slow to bring apps over. It's expensive.
The other aspect is that although the syntax is similar in C#, Java, and C++; there are enough differences to make it less than a simple task to just switch over. Most devs with experience have been doing either C# or Java or C++. Most have not been doing all 3. This means paying money and taking time to get the existing devs trained or hire additional devs and transfering domain knowledge to them. Both have costs. (Note: iPhone is Objective C, which is different, but also has similarities. Same issues though)
Many companies just don't have the resources to spend when the return on investment is not short term. Long term as more consumers buy Windows Phones, it will be more economically viable for companies to invest in porting the applications.
JVH3 said:
Guarantee this would not get noticed. Most users on the site don't even donate to the devs that post apps here that they use
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
He-he... Most users on the site are too lazy, greedy and irresponsible not even for donation but just for vote and review published here on XDA apps And some are so ungrateful that they forget just to say "Thanks"... Don't tell me about donations: I've collected money for Cotulla, for the Samsung's first freedom ROM for WP7... From hundreds of Focus owners here only 13 or 14 people are donated.
As for your arguments: it's 100% true for an adult professionals but of course not for 12-14 years old teens who "has over 20 years of software industry experience"
Yeah, I am myself a professional developer at day time, and I know how much it costs my company to employ me
But still, I think not all hope is lost. Some people may read this thread and just maybe change their attitude against devs that offer "free" things a little to the better - good that we talked about it, then!
And as I program in my free time anyway, just for fun, even a crowdsourced 1000 dollars could nudge me in a direction that I would not take otherwise, and people get the app they like. Of course only if the right APIs and server permissions are there to build it in the first place which of course is not always the case - many apps can only be built by the companies who own the corresponding server infrastructure.
rbrunner7 said:
Yeah, I am myself a professional developer at day time, and I know how much it costs my company to employ me
But still, I think not all hope is lost. Some people may read this thread and just maybe change their attitude against devs that offer "free" things a little to the better - good that we talked about it, then!
And as I program in my free time anyway, just for fun, even a crowdsourced 1000 dollars could nudge me in a direction that I would not take otherwise, and people get the app they like. Of course only if the right APIs and server permissions are there to build it in the first place which of course is not always the case - many apps can only be built by the companies who own the corresponding server infrastructure.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not to be discouraging, but it is pretty unlikely to get $1000 in donation from users here. It you look at the weather city editor that I wrote (link to thread in signature) for Windows Mobile, I got maybe close to $500 in donations from the time I created it through the entire time I worked on it, supported it, and enhanced it. I created it because I needed it and turned it into more than I needed so others could easily use it. The donations came from maybe 20 to 30 users. It was downloaded by well over 10000 users.
If looking for money as the reward, you are much better off paying Microsoft the $100 and putting the app on the marketplace and charging a dollar or making it be ad supported.
You'll still get respect for making cool things and posting them here, but it's not going to make you rich. It's a great place to learn and get some experience making apps though. Lots of people are willing to help if you get stuck on something.
It's a nice thought but, in reality it wont work
I thought about doing this too...
If you got everyone to attempt to do it, it might but, if you only get 50 people to do it(and that would be a lot in a fourm to request something they might not be interested in) that is a little bit compared to their marketplace with iOS or Android.
I personally really want Cut the Rope but, after posting a handfull of times on their facebook page and even emailing customer service, no luck
I was thinking long long time before I finally came to a conclusion to write this, rather frustrated, post. Believe me, it is not easy to put it together with clear mind and intention to not to offend or be prejudicial.
A major part of XDA is spinning around custom ROMs ... a f*cking MAJOR part..... giving custom ROM developers feeling that it is actually a legitimate place to offer, or more precisely market, their so called "inventions"...
While I am a member of XDA only a short time, I can imagine what spirit was once behind this server. Spirit of sharing knowledge, progress. There are still lot of members, who live up to this spirit, but there is also a lot, who are just "selling" their product for "THANKS" buttons, and of course DONATIONS.
There is nothing wrong with thanks or donations, should they support an effort that leads into more community education and involvement. My concern is heading more in direction of so called ROM gluers.... Guys, who don't actually develop anything at all, just collect work of other people, glue it together and then release it under some bombastic name like: "Project Saturndancers: Timelapse IV".... and the all greedy flash junkies are flashing, in frenzy of having something more on their mobile than they already paid for.
And then comes the bitter morning, the wake-up where some features are not working the way they should, some not at all. And the reply of the "all-mighty" developer ? Read the OP -- I guarantee nothing, you flash on your own risk....
Agree, we all flash on our own risk. But if it is so, then it would be at least fair, if so called "ROM Developers" end up the marketing of their own semi-products, promising "Awesome sound" "Unparalleled performance" "Superior battery life" and other rather qualitative measures.
If such praxis continues, XDA is just changing from a developer server in some sort of whore-house.
ondrejvaroscak said:
While I am a member of XDA only a short time, I can imagine what spirit was once behind this server. Spirit of sharing knowledge, progress.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You are absolutely correct. Way back years ago, while Windows Mobile 5 was around on PDAs, XDA started up for this exact purpose. We had many amazing people with intricate knowledge of how the operating system and devices were all put together. They shared their work and knowledge with others and it was a place all about learning.
But many years have passed, times have changed. Every man and his dog has a smartphone nowadays. It's become easy for people to zip up other mods together and release their "own". But as you say, when it comes to providing support or working out issues, they sometimes don't have the knowledge to do this. But in saying this, there are MANY skilled developers who come up with amazing work, and put in countless hours in providing and supporting their work. All for people to modernise or improve their smartphones, and not be charged anything for the service.
But even back in the early days, we had "ROM Kitchens" where anyone could cook up a Windows Mobile ROM with features they wanted, and they then posted their ROMs on XDA. Each was customised to how they wanted.
Nowadays, it's just down to the sheer number of Android users, that we're seeing this explosion of ROMs.
All I can suggest is you only use the ones you are interested in, and simply not use or look at the others. At the end of the day, they are doing no harm. if they are (for example bricking devices), then we will intervene.
the_scotsman said:
You are absolutely correct. Way back years ago, while Windows Mobile 5 was around on PDAs, XDA started up for this exact purpose. We had many amazing people with intricate knowledge of how the operating system and devices were all put together. They shared their work and knowledge with others and it was a place all about learning.
But many years have passed, times have changed. Every man and his dog has a smartphone nowadays. It's become easy for people to zip up other mods together and release their "own". But as you say, when it comes to providing support or working out issues, they sometimes don't have the knowledge to do this. But in saying this, there are MANY skilled developers who come up with amazing work, and put in countless hours in providing and supporting their work. All for people to modernise or improve their smartphones, and not be charged anything for the service.
But even back in the early days, we had "ROM Kitchens" where anyone could cook up a Windows Mobile ROM with features they wanted, and they then posted their ROMs on XDA. Each was customised to how they wanted.
Nowadays, it's just down to the sheer number of Android users, that we're seeing this explosion of ROMs.
All I can suggest is you only use the ones you are interested in, and simply not use or look at the others. At the end of the day, they are doing no harm. if they are (for example bricking devices), then we will intervene.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not to be wrong understood, I don't say that everybody is like this. There are of course great people around here. And of course I agree, it's at the end everybody's decision, with whom to bake the cake