Develop Bugs

SPB Clone - Nag Screen Removal

SPB Clone is a fine bit of software. It makes a full ghost copy of your BA that you can reinstall after a hard reset - all the registry settings, installed software. etc.
The demo version is fully working but after installing via a clone you get a nag screen that continually pops up to remind you to buy the software.
Because I was so impressed with SPB Clone, I wrote to SPB to ask them if they could provide me with a single user licence at a less painful price, since the PDA I was cloning was actually my phone, and I'm not a big company with many PDAs. They told me that, sadly, SPB Clone was only available on an enterprise licence but then they told me how to remove the nag screen....
1. Open the folder \Windows\StartUp in File Explorer.
2. Tap and Hold and select View All Files.
3. Select bootupdt.exe and select Cut from context menu.
4. Change to the root folder "\" and tap and hold on the empty space within folder view. Select Paste from context menu.
5. Soft reset.
6. Remove bootupdt.exe from the root folder.

And you were not able to find this out yourself?
Last year when I had my tires changed the clerk put a sign on my inner mirror to come back in 50km. And there was of course an ad on the sticker. Your post is like "Hey, today I opened my car and pulled the sticker of the mirror. You won't believe: I've got clear sight again!"

Nice of you to repay their generosity by putting this information in the public domain...

@tintoy: Generosity? I consider this being spam. Nobody wants new posts about "I now know how to reboot!" or "My how-to: Plugging USB cable in". I would accept those kinda posts if he'd just tell about product X, which is cheaper than Y but has same or more features like A, B, C. Only hassle you have to solve is to remove [filename] from autostart.

Chatty said:
And you were not able to find this out yourself?
Last year when I had my tires changed the clerk put a sign on my inner mirror to come back in 50km. And there was of course an ad on the sticker. Your post is like "Hey, today I opened my car and pulled the sticker of the mirror. You won't believe: I've got clear sight again!"
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Oh, well I'm terribly sorry that my lo-tech post offends your obviously tender, high-brow sensibilities.
God help you if someone with less knowledge than you asks you a question face-to-face; I'd imagine they'd deck you with an attitude like yours.
Try and remember that there are, in fact, some people that don't know as much about a subject as you and that, to them, as it was to me, a tip like this is very useful, although it's obviously far, far beneath someone who is clearly an IT deity. Please allow me to prostrate myself before you - in fact, I'm genuflecting before my monitor even now!
Mind you; your grammar, spelling and punctuation aren't up to much. If you're going to slight someone on a written forum, at least make sure you can write, eh?

tintoy said:
Nice of you to repay their generosity by putting this information in the public domain...
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I'm a firm believer in freedom of information.
SPB gave me this information because I am a single user.
I have provided this information to other single users.
If an unscrupulous company wishes to use unlicensed software, possibly risking prosecution, that's their remit, not mine.

madcapmagician said:
Oh, well I'm terribly sorry that my lo-tech post offends your obviously tender, high-brow sensibilities.
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Ok, your're starting to get insulting. That's why I'll answer the last time to this thread.
madcapmagician said:
God help you if someone with less knowledge than you asks you a question face-to-face; I'd imagine they'd deck you with an attitude like yours.
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This is not comparable because this is a forum, not a chat. Most questions can be answered by just searching the forum. And I was not against your post in whole but about the way you described it.
madcapmagician said:
Try and remember that there are, in fact, some people that don't know as much about a subject as you and that, to them, as it was to me, a tip like this is very useful, although it's obviously far, far beneath someone who is clearly an IT deity. Please allow me to prostrate myself before you - in fact, I'm genuflecting before my monitor even now!
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Farcical. No comment.
madcapmagician said:
Mind you; your grammar, spelling and punctuation aren't up to much. If you're going to slight someone on a written forum, at least make sure you can write, eh?
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Here you stepped over the line. If you ain't got no further arguments (if there has been at least one already) you start to insult people. That will make you look respectable, indeed. Although English is not my mother tongue I do speak more than one language. How many do you speak? (Not that I'm really interested.)

Chatty said:
Ok, your're starting to get insulting.
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Your original post was both rude and insulting, hence my reply.
This is not comparable because this is a forum, not a chat.
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How so? Do you not bring your manners to a forum? You are, in effect, saying that because you cannot see your fellow forumers face-to-face you feel you do not have to be polite to them.....and you then get upset when they are impolite back to you.
Most questions can be answered by just searching the forum.
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Why do you assume I didn't? Again, you are being insulting. I scoured the web to find the answer, like most other noobs would do. From the way you wrote, I got the impression you are very IT-literate - well, I am not and there are many others like me. My post is for them.
And I was not against your post in whole but about the way you described it.
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Then I suggest you re-read your first post: in your head, when you typed it, it may have sounded witty and polite and to-the-point; that is not how it came across. If you felt my description was at fault, you should have said so, rather than making rude, tangential comments.
madcapmagician said:
Try and remember that there are, in fact, some people that don't know as much about a subject as you and that, to them, as it was to me, a tip like this is very useful
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Just to reiterate the point.
Here you stepped over the line.
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Agreed, although in my head, when I typed it, it was quid pro quo.
I will publicly apologise here and now for being rude.
Please understand that there is nothing berating in this post - I am merely trying to articulate myself without you being able to physically hear my voice.

madcapmagician said:
Hey guys, I know a way that you can get the hard work of dozens of developers for free. Heck they gave it to me, and so it is implied that they want me to share it with the entire internet. Aren't I morally and ethically bankrupt?
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Yes, you are.
Chatty said:
There is this tire change sticker in my car that is driving me batty
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Hmmm, interesting
tintoy said:
Nice of you to repay their generosity by putting this information in the public domain...
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Chatty said:
Generosity? Huh...spam. X, Y, uh A, B, C, Marco, polo
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Exsqueezeme
madcapmagician said:
Everyone marvel at my use of polysyllabic word play. I am the master of the keyboard. Chatty, my swing thing is bigger than yours.
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madcapmagician again said:
I am a firm believer in freedom of unscrupulousness. It was granted to us in the 18th ammendment to the Constitution. SPB gave me the information because I am single minded and they have no desire to make money. They are actually just out to provide a community service.
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Wow, excellent points, all of them!
Chatty Cathy said:
Actually my swing thing is bigger. And I speak multiple languages, just not very well. A donde esta la casa de pepe?
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Stunning!
madcapmagician said:
Why are you rude to me just because I was rude to you? Don't you understand the consequences of disturbing the molecular dismobilization of the antisymmetric wave function? Egad man. Let me cut loose some more words from my Microsoft Word thesaurus...prostrate, genuflecting, forumers (huh?), tangential, exoskeletal, plebiscite. Take that!
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Do you guys know how tired the rest of us are of this kind of non-productive grade school banter? I am waiting for the "your momma" insults to start any minute. Can someone please delete this thread.

The original post in this thread was a useful piece of information on how to remove the nag screen on a piece of software.
It was not a "How-to" on rebooting or plugging in a USB cable, and i am sure that anyone who wants to use the SPB Clone would be grateful for this information.
The fact that you either didnt understand what the post was about or didnt care doesnt mean you have to immediately flame the poster, if you have no use for the information in a certain thread just move on to the next thread. Trading insults back and forth is the biggest spam anyone could expect to see in a forum, especially this one, which provides so much good information to those of us who use these devices.

I continue to be floored by people's casual attitude toward trading software keys, hacking apps, and getting around nag screens. If the developer did not want you to see the nag screen then he/she WOULD NOT HAVE PUT IT THERE. If the developer gave instructions to one user on how to remove the nag, then great...what a nice developer/company. But unless they expressly gave that person permission to post it out to potentially thousands of people then it is JUST PLAIN WRONG. There is no gray area here, folks. Most of us have to live in a grown-up world and are tired of the impacts that other people's adolescent, situational ethics imposes on us. Do unto others...

cw6447 said:
I continue to be floored by people's casual attitude toward trading software keys, hacking apps, and getting around nag screens. If the developer did not want you to see the nag screen then he/she WOULD NOT HAVE PUT IT THERE. If the developer gave instructions to one user on how to remove the nag, then great...what a nice developer/company. But unless they expressly gave that person permission to post it out to potentially thousands of people then it is JUST PLAIN WRONG. There is no gray area here, folks. Most of us have to live in a grown-up world and are tired of the impacts that other people's adolescent, situational ethics imposes on us. Do unto others...
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I agree with you on the ethics of "stealing" software, my main complaint here was the instant flaming that madcapmagician received after posting, that is not what this community is about. he was not posting a "how-to" on the process of rebooting, he was relaying the information given to him as he received it, i think that the information can be used by those who are ok with "stealing" software and those who disagree can just disregard the information. If the mods decide that the information shouldnt be here they have the power to remove it.

Forgive me for carrying on with this ridiculous and pointless conversation but is it not in fact illegal to unlock contract mobile phones? Would the cellular providers be happy for 1000's of people to remove their branding and software from devices which they have sold? If the software company had not wanted to help the individual then they would not have told him to start with. I am sure that nobody is so special that a software company would whisper information into his ear that they didn't want to be made common knowledge.
This is a tech support forum, it has helped me as well as many, many other people. If you want to start talking about wrong, immoral, illegal or any other description you may have then start looking at what other people are doing.
I appreciate this forum, and it's members. For crying out loud, stop arguing and get on with the job in hand.

Zylo, I agree with you in one regard. The post is perfectly legit insomuch as it is helpful and technically related. But only for people without a conscience. Bret, you are symptomatic of this new generation of kids with no personal accountability in life. To pretend that you can guess that a software company doesn't mind you giving away their software for free is ludicrous. madcap probably got ahold of some sales guy who thought it would be nice to do him a favor. Do you think the owners, investors or developers would have told him to feel free to post it on forums around the internet? Why not take that info and sell it for a profit on eBay? Or better yet why not just sell the software as your own? If they were giving you a free copy then they wouldn't mind you doing whatever you want with it. Right? You see, you keep blurring the lines of common decency to the point where eventually anything goes. You won't understand until someday you actually become a responsible citizen, start your own business, and put your hard-earned money and time out on the line. I bet when the leeches and thieves come after your product you will have a whole different attitude. The "right thing" to do in this case is so easy and obvious. I fear for a world where people can't make that distinction.

Sorry if what i said came across as a flaming. It was not intended as such. I'm just aware that softweare companies have many employees, from designers to developers to marketing people to managers. Of all these people the ones who seeme to have the most alturistitc (read non commercially-minded) approach always seem to be the developers. They are typically just concerned with writing good software and makng it work. If you asked a developer for a free copy of his/her software for 'testing' they'd probally give it to you without complaint! If, however, you asked them if they'd like their contract to end at the end of its term becuase you were going to make the software they wrote completly unprofitable by telling everyone how to get it for free they might be slightly less generous!

Your points have been taken on board but for the record, I work for a small, local mobile phone dealer. How much business do you think we lose from people unlocking phones, and therefore not returning to us?
I'm not saying that is right or wrong but what I am saying is that it is illegal. It is stealing from the provider and taking profits away from independant dealers. Also, how are you to know that my own business did not fail due to non-payers? You obviously open your mouth before engaging your brain. I could not recover the debts owed to my company and it resulted in the business closing. Is that not also theft?
If you want to target anyone go for the real criminals who sell ripped off software and DVD's on the Sunday markets. They are the real problem, not one guy who has made a very small post who has admitted to have lttle understanding of what he has done. I'm sure you have now all alienated him so he will never return to this site again.
Talk about a mountain out of a molehill.

Yeah. Can we consider this conversation over?
Please don't be offended by my posts @madcapmagician, I was just making a point, not trying to demonise you! I would imagine there is even a fairly decent discsussion that could be had about what consitutes ripping off software and what consitutes fair use...

I found my original e-mail and SPB’s reply:
-----Original Message-----
From: Jerzy Bulowski
Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 1:01 pm
To: [email protected]
Subject: Clone
Dear Sir or Madam,
I recently downloaded your demo of Clone and have to say that, already, it has served me well after my phone required a hard reset the other day.
I was so impressed that I decided to purchase a copy but was absolutely horrified to see the price of $199. Whilst I can appreciate that Clone is suited to large businesses with many corporate PDAs, I am a single user - the PDA in question is actually my HTC Blue Angel mobile phone - and I was wondering whether you could sell me a single-licence version for a price more similar to what you charge for Pocket Plus?
If this is not possible could you tell me how long the annoying reminder screen will continue to pop up on my phone?
I look forward to your reply.
Regards,
Jerzy Bulowski
Hello Jerzy,
Spb Clone is enterprise product and there's not any "single user" licenses.
How to remove the nag screen in your case:
1. Open folder \Windows\StartUp in File Explorer. 2. Tap and Hold and select View All files. 3. Select bootupd.exe and select Cut from context menu. 4. Change to the root folder "\" and tap-n-hold on the empty space within folder view. Select "Paste" from context menu. 5. Soft reset. 6. Remove bootupd.exe from the root folder.
Best regards,
Alexander Shalin
Customer Support Team
Spb Software House
Email: [email protected]
Web: www.spbsoftwarehouse.com
Phone: +7 812 324 49 44
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Bret, perhaps I should point out that you can download SPB Clone for free from their website, as a demo version. Corporate customers, if they liked it, would then buy a licensed copy for $199.00 – I have “stolen” nothing.
Chris - As far as the ethics of posting said information in the public domain are concerned, my conscience is clear. This information is for single users, like myself. If an unscrupulous company wishes to make use of this information then it’s their ethics that are at fault, not mine.
Tintoy – I’m not offended. It was Chatty’s immediate, condescending, demeaning post that riled me. Zylograth said what I should have, instead of replying as I did:
The fact that you either didn’t understand what the post was about or didn’t care doesn’t mean you have to immediately flame the poster, if you have no use for the information in a certain thread just move on to the next thread.
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And that’s that!

AFAIK I think it's still open to debate whether we discuss cracking. I'm happy to talk about cracking, but not cracks.
Odeean makes a good point that cracking and reversing is part of the education of programming; if you're a commercial developer, or would be one, it's worth knowing weaknesses and pitfalls.
People shouldn't come on here and say "wantttt - crack for thai-g" etc. That's just silly and damn lazy. If you don't know how to get warez, you should be using a Motorola, not even a Nokia. But you should be rewarding programmers, or you should understand when there aren't programmers left to program because they've all gone broke. (And I'm not just talking about cash.. we don't all program for the $$)
But if you want to learn how to crack thai-g, search, ask nicely, or learn and tell. But don't distribute cracks (at least publically). There are other boards for that, and we have enough trouble keeping this board clean enough now-a-days
V

Take it like a man!
Madcap, my almost 3-year old daughter tries to make equally bad logic when I have caught her sneaking a cookie before supper. If you were in court you would be your own worst enemy. The email from spb said "How to remove the nag screen in YOUR case". Not "in your case and EVERY other person you can broadcast it to". Show me where he added, "And please feel free to share this with other single users". ONCE AGAIN, if they did not expressly permit you to give this to other people then it is just plain wrong! No, not illegal...it's the spb CSR's ignorant fault for giving it out to you. Let's say you are standing behind a guy in line at the QuickTrip. You witness the cashier ring up his order, but forget to ring up his Snickers bar. When the customer makes the cashier aware of the error, the cashier says,"Oh that's ok, just go ahead and take it." Does that then give you the right to grab a Snickers bar and put it in your pocket without paying for it? If one person got a freebie then everyone should get it, right? How long do you think QuickTrip will survive giving away it's products? It really isn't any different. Software is intangible property that should be treated as tangible. Just because you can get away with it doesn't mean you should. It is just like all of the thieves who thought downloading music they did not pay for was OK. It wasn't...still isn't...never will be.
As for your equally weak argument of, "If an unscrupulous company wishes to make use of this information then it’s their ethics that are at fault, not mine." Let's take the same QuickTrip. While you are at the counter paying for your snacks (except for the Snickers bar tucked into your pocket), you oversee another employee opening the safe behind the counter. Because of your excellent eyesight and brilliant mind, you see and remember the combination. When you get home you go out to the SafesAndVaultsDevelopers.com forums and post about the dummy at QuickTrip opening up the safe right in front of everyone. You also post the combination to the safe because "if an unscrupulous person wishes to make use of this information then it’s their ethics that are at fault, not mine." Great logic. I wish I could send you to time-out like I can my daughter.
Try this. Reply back to spb. Tell that same Customer Service Rep that you are posting this hack on all of the popular PDA sites on the internet. And copy the support group at spb, too. After they respond to you, post their letter back here. I will be waiting to see the response.
Now I know you would never have posted the above spb info on a site where you thought "unscrupulous" people could visit and get hold of it. I mean, what jerk in their right mind would do that to a company and possibly expose them to real dollar losses? So since you know everyone here is trustworthy, why don't you go ahead and post your email account password, your xda forum password, and the PIN to your ATM account on here. Throw in your momma's phone number for grins. We won't do anything bad with it.
Am I going off on you? Yes. When someone tries to make a clearly black and white argument grey, and aggressively attempts to defend that indefensible position over and again, they deserve to be called out. Take it like a man.

Regarding Rights To OUR Intellectual Property Here

In light of what I considered to be a couple of very disturbing developments, I think at this point, a dialogue/debate needs to be opened on what rights/copyrights a contributor has on the intellectual material he/she posts here.
Sakajati was abruptly censored when he suggested that future roms may be administered through a tool bar and not administered through this site.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=3288089&postcount=10332
And the way that BeyondInvisible was driven off this site by the " takers " and not supported by this site. ( the people that stole his new pay/per icons and published them for free, should have been banned). http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=2798052#post2798052 because he dared suggest that it might be time for all the takers to pony up.
When your work becomes widely successful ala; olinex, jockyw, sakajati, MobileMatt, JCKOTZE, Schap, in the kaiser forums, at what point does toiling around in poverty while you work hard for others for free, become less attractive than selling your work?
Who now owns your work , you, XDA, is it copyrighted? When you decide to take it private what ownership rights does XDA retain?
If you request that XDA remove your work, can they leave an archive of it?
I love this site it is the greatest resource on the net for PDA's but I think these subjects could use a good going over by the Mods and the membership.
Dennis

Removing SJ's toolbar was NOT censorship, regardless of how you're trying to spin it. We received several complaints from users who don't feel comfortable being required to install a toolbar just to use their favorite ROM... ask any Mod, we all get the emails. The action I took (editing the toolbar links) is the most benign available to Moderators. I could have closed the thread, and moved it to a Mod-only section while the investigation/discussion took place. Instead, I opted to merely edit out the download links.
There is no justification for requiring users to install a toolbar into Internet Explorer (or any other browser in the Windows environment) just so they can have access to a Chef's ROMs.
Now while a decision has not yet been made, I can confidently say that if SJ had promoted his toolbar as a tool to help all users of his ROMs get the latest "breaking" new on development, and NOT required it in order to obtain the password required for flashing, then we [most likely] would have allowed the toolbar to stay linked on XDA.

I think part of the problem here is that many seem to think that they are entitled to what the chefs produce for nothing. The hours spent porting and testing should count for something but for many it is just expected. I for one have no problem contributing what I can when I'm able. It is too bad that more don't do this.
Kirby

Intellectual property laws protect the inventor/creator rights of ownership to their intellectual property in cyber media. So there is no fear but a concern for any coder that his or her work marketing could be abused or it could be stolen. That is the risk one takes without his or her choice when they share their creations with others.
I also read XDA rules, and it clearly states that soliciting anything for money is prohibited. many cooks are on the border line of asking for money rather encouraging donation for sharing the fruit of their work with others. I do not have a problem with that and believe the majority here share my sentiment. I have a problem however with someone begging for donation without any substantiating efforts, invention or creation to merit the donation solicitation. That being said, I believe SJ was a true gentleman in all of his posts and never infringed on callus donation request; having a tool bar that he feels if XDA was out ( and it was out few times in the past month) as an optional site but not alternative support site that can be accessed where members can help each other is not a bad idea.
We seem to forget sometimes that XDA site was created to help one developer another achieve excellence in the field of e-communication.
so again, I have no problem with SJ promoting his tool bar as long as it is not used to ransom donation for solving issues and i am sure like I said earlier, this is NOT SJ's intention.

NotATreoFan said:
Removing SJ's toolbar was NOT censorship, regardless of how you're trying to spin it. We received several complaints from users who don't feel comfortable being required to install a toolbar just to use their favorite ROM...
There is no justification for requiring users to install a toolbar into Internet Explorer (or any other browser in the Windows environment) just so they can have access to a Chef's ROMs.
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That was one of my major points, there " was " no requirement . because there " was no rom ". You struck preemptively to something that had not happened yet, because it might happen in the future. You squashed his right to promote a private project , as many many people do here, because a few ungrateful people complained that in the future they might have to obtain the rom it SJ's way.
Had he stated that the next rom would be available only by joining his website, would you have shut him down?
My question is, at what point does a chef have the right to take his work private, and how , without any interference from this site.
Believe me, I am not trying to "spin " anything against anyone, I have a great deal of respect for you and all you have done for this forum ( we miss your input in the Kaiser world ) I just thought that it was a heavy handed response ( and yes censorship ) to something that hadn't even happened yet.
A simple PM could have alieviated the situation for the time being, while the Mods figured it out. Not a head on erase everything, assault SJ's right to promote his work and wares.
And I would say again, that the integrity of this site depends on people to share openly and honestly without fear of unjustified reprisal, SJ has said that he will not for the time being, take any new roms private. I think that is enough for all his links to be restored. If not, what other definitions of censorship do you have ?
JimmyMcGee said:
Your opinion is respected. But the appearance was that he WAS requiring people to use the Toolbar to get the Password for the ROM.
Sakajati can do what ever he wants with his ROM, if he chooses to require the Toolbar, that's his choice. If XDA, the people who maintain and provide some presence for his ROM here say that's not in the spirit of the community, then he can release the ROMs on his website soley.
Basically you have to follow certain rules to post your stuff on SourceForge, so think of at as the same thing.
You seem to be the only one with a problem. sakajati is a great guy and is being cooperative in the investigation.
There is written law and common law. This falls more into to "Common Law" area, which is why I said it was a Grey area.
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I brought this over from the Hyperdragon thread to here, to discuss.
I just want everyone to know, this has more to do with the big picture than it has to do with sakajati. This has nothing to do with NATF or with jimmy and I am probably not the only one who has a problem with the way it was handled. I am just the one with the big mouth. And we all know that sakajati would never say a word or give anything less than his full cooperation.
I just want someone to tell me not just for SJ, but for the good of the whole community and as a precedent for future complaints of this type, why SJ couldn't have been shot a PM asking what his intentions were, and if they approached a grey area, he could have been informed and he would have cooperated. End of any problem. It is not like there was any urgency, as I said before, there was no requirement because there was no rom.
And if people did over react then it is good for everyone to get a dialogue started. That is what this site is all about.
Thanks guys for doing a great job !

denco7 said:
That was one of my major points, there " was " no requirement . because there " was no rom ". You struck preemptively to something that had not happened yet, because it might happen in the future. You squashed his right to promote a private project , as many many people do here, because a few ungrateful people complained that in the future they might have to obtain the rom it SJ's way.
Had he stated that the next rom would be available only by joining his website, would you have shut him down?
My question is, at what point does a chef have the right to take his work private, and how , without any interference from this site.
Believe me, I am not trying to "spin " anything against anyone, I have a great deal of respect for you and all you have done for this forum ( we miss your input in the Kaiser world ) I just thought that it was a heavy handed response ( and yes censorship ) to something that hadn't even happened yet.
A simple PM could have alieviated the situation for the time being, while the Mods figured it out. Not a head on erase everything, assault SJ's right to promote his work and wares.
And I would say again, that the integrity of this site depends on people to share openly and honestly without fear of unjustified reprisal, SJ has said that he will not for the time being, take any new roms private. I think that is enough for all his links to be restored. If not, what other definitions of censorship do you have ?
I brought this over from the Hyperdragon thread to here, to discuss.
I just want everyone to know, this has more to do with the big picture than it has to do with sakajati. This has nothing to do with NATF or with jimmy and I am probably not the only one who has a problem with the way it was handled. I am just the one with the big mouth. And we all know that sakajati would never say a word or give anything less than his full cooperation.
I just want someone to tell me not just for SJ, but for the good of the whole community and as a precedent for future complaints of this type, why SJ couldn't have been shot a PM asking what his intentions were, and if they approached a grey area, he could have been informed and he would have cooperated. End of any problem. It is not like there was any urgency, as I said before, there was no requirement because there was no rom.
And if people did over react then it is good for everyone to get a dialogue started. That is what this site is all about.
Thanks guys for doing a great job !
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My Friend read this...
sakajati said:
Just uploaded the cab to download center. It will add [Slide down for call functions] feature.
*** Please all of you install my toolbar [mod edit: link removed], this is the tool that will keep you updated and you will receive alert/message via the toolbar for news and announcements regularly from me. If you're using HyperDragon ROMs, you have to install it since the next rom release will be password protected and you'll get the password only via this toolbar . No adware, spyware, crapware, underware, read the Toolbar Privacy [mod edit: link removed]for details.***
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Read the Green Parts. The general consensus is IF sakajati REQUIRES people to use the Toolbar to use his ROMs, he is no longer contributing to the XDA ROM Community.
sakajati is ALLOWED and not censored to require this if he so chooses. However the ramifications are, that he would no longer be allowed to advertise his ROM here.
The "common law" rule is, if you post a ROM on XDA, you are contributing to the community and the ROM shall have NO STRINGS attached. No requirement to Give Money, no requirement to have a toolbar installed.
If sakajati wishes to offer his toolbar as a way to stay in "constant contact" with him, then I don't see a problem. But the release of the ROM shall not be contingent on the toolbar. At least not while it is advertised on XDA.
And P.S. lets not get into calling ROMs Intellectual Property, because honestly, ROMs are Microsoft's I.P. All chefs do is tweak, improve and skin ROMs. And I don't mean to take anything away from chefs awesome work by saying that. So saying sakajati's ROM is his I.P. is like saying you taking you Toyota Celica, painting it Pink with Green Racing strips and boring out the engine, makes that car your I.P.
But as NATF has said, no final desicsion has been made, I only type this reply to give full disclosure, to show that our intentions are not to censor.
Thanks.

JimmyMcGee said:
If sakajati wishes to offer his toolbar as a way to stay in "constant contact" with him, then I don't see a problem. But the release of the ROM shall not be contingent on the toolbar. At least not while it is advertised on XDA.
But as NATF has said, no final decision has been made, I only type this reply to give full disclosure, to show that our intentions are not to censor.
Thanks.
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Since this has all been put to rest, I just have some final thoughts and then I'll shut up.
It was never about XDA's/Mod's disapproval as to what he intended to do, you all are entrusted with the success and smooth running of this site and have every right to administer this site as you see fit, (as I have every right to question why ) And it was not really about SJ, he was just the vehicle of my overall concern about creative people leaving this site because of real and perceived ( do it our way or get out ) disagreements.
I guess I just wanted to know, if people decided to take their projects private,such as a new rom, would they still be welcome here to support older projects or develop new projects here ( that fell within XDA guildlines ) and while supporting their projects, could they in a subtle non-commercial way, direct people to private/financially enhancing projects.
And of course I still object to the way it was handled, that sort of, " we are taking it all down until we decide " way of doing it, is something that happens to noobs that don't know any better. Not to someone who has done as much for, and contributed so much to the Kaiser community as sakajati has done.
The Mods always preach, " if you have a dispute with another member, take it to PM, " Unfortunately this great advise wasn't followed, and I am glad that SJ was not offended by this and did not pack up his toys and go home ( like unfortunately other members have done )
And I am sorry if " I " have offended anyone, that was not my intention. I love this site and think that discussions like this benefit the longevity of this site. I am glad everything has been resolved and I will shut up and go away now
Oh yeah ........one more thing
And P.S. lets not get into calling ROMs Intellectual Property, because honestly, ROMs are Microsoft's I.P. All chefs do is tweak, improve and skin ROMs. And I don't mean to take anything away from chefs awesome work by saying that. So saying sakajati's ROM is his I.P. is like saying you taking you Toyota Celica, painting it Pink with Green Racing strips and boring out the engine, makes that car your I.P.
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Tell that to Chip Foose and Orange County Choppers. They take other people's parts, design and tweak and create masterpieces worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. Your telling me a Foose Design isn't intellectual property?

denco7 said:
The Mods always preach, " if you have a dispute with another member, take it to PM, " Unfortunately this great advise wasn't followed, and I am glad that SJ was not offended by this and did not pack up his toys and go home ( like unfortunately other members have done )
And I am sorry if " I " have offended anyone, that was not my intention. I love this site and think that discussions like this benefit the longevity of this site. I am glad everything has been resolved and I will shut up and go away now
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This is not an issue of personal disagreement, it is a violation of our rules of operation. When we see questionable activity, we will always take the action of stopping the activity, contacting the OP, and trying to resolve it quickly. I am sure SJ understands this as well as anyone here that it was nothing personal, and simply just S.O.P. around here. It's a lot easier to take down a problem for a couple days, and then let it back up with an apology than it is to remove it after we've debated.
As for you question about prior contributions, of course anyone is welcome to support anything that they have and continue to offer that is in compliance with our rules here. Nothing even stops a user from selling some stuff, and giving others away. It's just that they can't post the stuff they're selling here, just the donation ware.

IP
I have just a couple points. The Phoenix team has a separate website we use for tracking bugs and other discussion so we don't clutter up this site. However our intent is to foster creativity, open communication and cooperation among users and chefs which we hope results in better products for the users of this site. So don't always think a private website like ours or SJ's is a bad thing.
However, I would like to point out what was only stated one time in the thread--the guts of these roms are the ip of microsoft and htc. Now as chef's we find other bits and pieces that are added--and these are the ip of their creators. Sometimes we contribute our own ip--like skins, icons and very specific know how to get the roms to help our devices perform at peak efficiency. But anyone who would try to take a rom private and sell it, would have some major issues without first getting license to do so from MS, HTC and those other people who own the other intellectual property.
There are many examples of apps that were developed by talented people here that have gone commercial. Those apps are still discussed and linked to here because they all have trial periods. There is nothing wrong with commercializing your own ip..The wrong comes when you commercialize ip that you don't own or haven't properly license.
So let's continue a great tradition of creativity. I believe that this site is the primary reason that HTC and microsoft keep trying to make a better operating system. This site is where many ideas come from. This site gives the OS life beyond the normal experience.

denco7 said:
(snip)
Oh yeah ........one more thing
Tell that to Chip Foose and Orange County Choppers. They take other people's parts, design and tweak and create masterpieces worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. Your telling me a Foose Design isn't intellectual property?
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Pfft Those Posers

some confused thinking here -
A cook can ask for a contribution for his time but there is no way he can claim that a cooked rom is his IPR because it's belongs to someone else start with - no licence to modify has been granted!
Now creating programs from scratch, that's a different issue and how they want to deal with payment is upto them.

my theory is whoever created the forum and then got ppl to volounter to mantain it
ITS THERE FORUM
Its really up to them what they want to do

[Q] Implement Reputation System?

Hey guys (mostly the senior/mod/admin folks, but anyone feel free to chime in). Could XDA implement vBulletin's (I think there is an official plugin/option... I may be wrong about this though; I cannot say for sure since I am not an admin on any site that uses vBulletin, $user = phpbbWhore reputation system? If it's not built into the latest version of the code, I'm sure there is a 3rd party plugin available from VBulletin's official site (I know of at least a few of those that exist and would help if needed).
My thought behind this is that sometimes someone posts some really useful information and adding a reply that says something like "+1 thanks!" almost seems like a waste of a post to me (I really dislike "filler"/OT threads, but I still want to give the person credit). However if I was able to give a person a point (+) or if someone was just being a jerk for no reason (-), I think more people would take the time to think before they posted. Plus, since we know "post count" mean nothing in terms of someone being a helpful person or not, this would allow new users to spot trustworthy/reliable folks.
My only qualm is that I don't know if XDA as a whole is mature enough to use this kind of system responsibly, but I have faith that any real abusers could be weeded out fairly quickly. I think it would be cool to at least trial run this. Thanks for your time .

Hi DeeBG,
Yeah, it's good idea generally, thou i'd prolly advocate XDA going a step further right off the bat, and implementing a point trading system as a supplement to the donate buttons, especially for those without easy access to paypal credit.
Reputation has issues when someone on the fringe of the group is battered down for being different. Like imagine someone says "Let's make an iPhone section!". They might lose a years reputation in like a day. At least with a point trading system you're dealing with actual assistance or virtual services, rather than base emotional responses or crowd bullying.
I'm still learning about XDA's donate system, which seems fairly arbitrary or opaque. Maybe someone can explain how well that system is working out so far.
Cheers.

Reputation is built into vB, looks like they opted to turn it off. Good thing, every forum I've been a part of / admin'd, it's been abused.

I7redd said:
Reputation has issues when someone on the fringe of the group is battered down for being different. Like imagine someone says "Let's make an iPhone section!". They might lose a years reputation in like a day. At least with a point trading system you're dealing with actual assistance or virtual services, rather than base emotional responses or crowd bullying.
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The reputation system only works through "thanks", doesn't it? So your reputation cannot get worse, but only better.
I7redd said:
I'm still learning about XDA's donate system, which seems fairly arbitrary or opaque. Maybe someone can explain how well that system is working out so far.
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It's not much of a system - you can donate directly to xda, which will help cover costs of running the servers, or you can donate to individuals (like me ) whose work you like.

Well there are really two types of systems. One is where you can give a thumbs up or thumbs down on a comment (sometimes represented by a [+] or [-] sign), and then there is the "Thanks" system, as seen on such sites as http://androidforums.com.
I agree that the first system can and sadly usually is abused (I think I saw it work well on one private torrent site I used to belong to a long time ago). There is a somewhat "pack mentality" that some users can fall into, whether someone is "outed" (falsely or not) for being an abuser of the forums or sometimes members are found "guilty by association".
I would like to see at least a "Thanks" system in place, again the folks at androidforums.com (which I'm sure at least some of you are also members at or at least have been directed to a post there before) have this successfully working within their vBulletin-powered site and would happy to help XDA admins if needed (not that I don't have faith in the XDA site owners/coders, you guys are pretty awesome yourselves =p). Of course I would be happy to lend my ~10 years of PHP/MySQL/etc experience to the process if it'd help.
I would start a public poll, but I think it's really in the interests of the site owners (also they can probably setup a more wide-spread poll than I can if they want public opinion).
Your friend in code,
DeeBG =)

I think it would be good to show appreciation to other users but It would be abused knowing that you can knock down someone's reputation (last thing we need is more flaming)

Captainkrtek said:
I think it would be good to show appreciation to other users but It would be abused knowing that you can knock down someone's reputation (last thing we need is more flaming)
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Yeah, that's why I think a system where you can ONLY give thanks would be cool. Again, forum admins, let me know if you need any assistance getting it up and working (it shouldn't add a performance performance hit to the backend database/system... the php code would be very light and the mysql db would maybe grow a few hundred kB since users without thanks wouldn't have any data).

Developer Bidding...
Livven said:
The reputation system only works through "thanks", doesn't it?
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Still open to cheating using multiple accounts to "Thank" themselves here and there and everywhere.
It's perhaps harder to gain anything with requests from yourself, and gifting points to yourself, while offering up public solutions. Thou i wouldn't put it past someone to try.
It's not much of a system - you can donate directly to xda, which will help cover costs of running the servers, or you can donate to individuals (like me ) whose work you like.
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Hmm... There seems to be a growing trend on XDA towards "donation requests" or "developer bidding" in certain forums. (see Xperia x10 Froyo request topic for example).
It involves people collectively posting that they will each donate a small amount to their favorite cause. (Android on Samsung Wave being another good example)
The current running tallies of offered donations is also interesting idea, thou there is some concern that those who have offered to donate $10 or $20 dollars will actually do so once the developers have done their magic.
Again, the opaque or arbitrary nature of hidden donations is a problem here.
Without going as far as escrow payments system (for requests that could likely need time limits and a refund), a basic "pre-paid" point system should work pretty well. For instance, once a task is completed the points could then be traded back for paypal dollars, completing the "circle of trust".
Any other ideas on this?
(or is there already an active "services" marketplace here somewhere that i've perhaps overlooked?)

To 'DEV' or not to 'DEV'.....

I just wanted to vent off about a trend that is starting to p*** me off greatly.
It is these so called 'Devs' that are 'cooking' ROM's and claiming to be Developers, then expect some form of payment for their 'work'.
Now before I get flamed, I am not talking about the recognised Developers on here who do some fantastic, complex work. I am quite willing and often do, donate as a token of my appreciation for their work and to help cover development costs.
I am talking the 'chancers' who take either a Stock ROM or AOSP (or indeed, another Dev's ROM), theme it a bit, add in some fixes and apps from other developers, then release it as a fantastically named ROM and ask numerous times in the first post for a donation.
This then leads to a thread full of posts asking the 'Dev' for fixes, who usually reply something like, "I'll look into it ", then wait for a real developer to make a fix elsewhere, and then include it in their ROM, inferring that they have fixed it.
I should state here that the tipping point for me today was a cooked ROM I saw, where the guy is not asking for donations per se, but has a 'wish list' on Amazon, a 'wish list' for f*** sake.
I know the Mods on this site have more than enough work on their hands, but couldn't we have a sort of two-tier system, whereby the submitted work could be scrutinized and a decision taken as to whether it has been 'cooked' or 'developed'. Then the person submitting could be advised as to whether they can call themselves a 'Chef' or a 'Dev'. Also some advice could be given about donations.........

lease report any abuse of the donation rules to us so we can deal with it appropriately.
Thankyou for raising some very valid points as well. Unfortunately though it's simply not viable to evaluate all releases.
Sent From My Fingers To Your Face......

Problem is you cant make it so only Recognized Devs can release ROMs either because there are so many good devs that are not recognized

Of course you are both correct. It would likely discourage people from trying to create ROM's and these guys (whether they cook or code) deserve all the plaudits they receive.
I should take a deep breath before sounding off .
That's what happens when you have to work over the holidays!

killall said:
...the guy is not asking for donations per se, but has a 'wish list' on Amazon
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I saw that too. I think the only reason I didn't report it was because I was so flabbergasted! (Ask the mods, I'm not shy when it comes to reporting stuff )
The thing that really got me was that it was mostly stuff around the $40-$60 range, some more! If it were things like USB cables and screen protectors that were only a few quid a go then I could accept it, but not the stuff he was asking for.
Edit: Found it and reported it. Let the mods decide.

I never ask, in fact I'm dead against it. If I do something its for my phone. Of course I will share it, but I did it for me. A few people have asked so now I include a charity link in my work. That way I don't know who donates and I feel no obligation to them to do more, or edit it to there wants, also I might be doing some good in the world. I feel this is the way to go. I rarely donate for fear of abuse of the system. And yeah, I recently saw a guy post a unworking ics port. Let other guys in the forum fix then ask for donations.
Sent from my GT-S5830 using xda premium

Just a rant...

"then its version dependent (he is using a different base rom then me) unless its an option in "suite tools" (which is just j4n87 and monarx code by another name  )
if it was a simple fix id implement it (or would have already), i doubt he actually *fixed* anything to make that work...probably just works as is
id like to clear something up now before i put it to bed as well: very few people are ultimately responsible for the vast majority of things that work in sense4 on this phone...chrisch and the virtuous team deserve the lion's share of the credit for things like: m10 resizing, full button backlight fix (well original one, there are other vivo/w ones now), and many .35 kernel related fixes no longer needed...and myself (this isnt an "ego" thing...its just reality)
people can say they dont/havent taken anything from my roms specifically, but so many fixes that arise in other roms are taking bins/libs/mods from ---...beyond compare :good:
i have read stuff posted in *other* forums...i dont sit around f5 ing them, but i read them when stuff is pointed out to me...and i get shots taken at me indirectly or otherwise for just asking one thing: that people properly credit where they get stuff from...as this is a huge issue in the android world, that many refuse to follow"
I'd like to provide an opinion on this post (won't say the thread or dev, but you know who you are)... If this seems out of line or inappropriate, then by all means have it deleted...
[Rant]
Lately I see this kind of talk more and more in the community... Android has been around for some time now, so there's bound to be occasional reuse if mods/hacks implemented elsewhere... sometimes the original creator of said mods has gotten lost over the years... But, when I hear devs gripe that someone used "their" lib or soneone copied their "jar" file, I can't help but think of Apple... Google owns the source, devs modified it. The mod itself doesn't constitute ownership of the file... Xda is supposed to be a community built on sharing sources to enhance growth. Some devs are definately more knowledgeable than others, but that doesnt mean that other "less skilled" developers don't contribute.
This isnt a shot at anyone, just saying we all need to learn to share the toys and help those less developed to grow with the community... Taking these "ownership" stances and "Apple" tactics doesn't justify the means to that end...
Nuff said...
[/Rant]
Sent from my HTC Incredible 2

This is a very good point, but also keep in mind there are a lot of people who take something from another ROM that was made by someone who slaved over it and finally figured out a fix and then stick it their ROM and claim it an original fix. Credit is more of showing respect than anything else. No one benefits from this stuff other than the end user. But don't do stuff to make the devs wanna leave and leave us in the dust.
Sent from my KangBang'd out vivow

you clearly missed my point
its not the ownership and usage that is a problem, its properly crediting where you get stuff from
heres the simple fact: if you take a fix from someone else's rom, you credit where it came from..
how hard is this? i mean really
since your singling me out, ill single out eclipticsense or whatever its called now
for awhile during its updates, whenever something was fixed...there was never credit to who the fix came from
ie, lowveld fixed browser downloads for the sense 4.0 defined roms...i implemented it the fix from the desire s...hawk took the browser.apk from ukb and didnt say where it came from just mentioned that it was fixed
etiquette dictates you go: *credit to lowveld for browser download fix (in your op)
and the vast majority of the tweaks implemented recently in that rom came from just take the methods from ukb and changing "tweaks" to "suite_tools" in the defintion
in some cases it was just taking apks from ukb and changing that line...like taking the mms.apk from ukb and actually having duplicate methods in the smali (tweaks and suite tools lol)
but was there credit to either pkmn/venom for the code i implemented? no....was there credit to me for porting it in (and in many cases modding it to work right)? no
virtuous team wasnt even mentioned in the credits over there until recently, despite all the things they fixed prior to m10 resizing
if that rom had been released on xda or rootzwiki with the op in the shape its in, it would have been reported and closed quickly...but since its on its own site, that can exist
i had no problem with sharing stuff w/ hawk...and in fact never said no when he asked to use something for months, whether it was lockscreens/fusion/etc...all i asked (about 20 times) was that he properly credit where he was taking stuff from, and time after time he didnt...i did find it amusing to diff his updates vs ukb updates and see that 90% of changed bins/libs/files came from ukb, but w/e
the tweaks implementation was the last straw and i was finally done
if you dont site work on a term paper/essay/research paper you are in a world of trouble....think of a rom that way

That's absolutely correct. the person's hard work need to be recognized, Stealing is not good...
mentioning where it came from gives some more push to that person and he will be more productive .
Nik, you ROM Rocks, but I am not able to use it with CDMA UIM card in India, as it doesnt detect the my RUIM(CDMA SIM).

nitsuj17 said:
you clearly missed my point
its not the ownership and usage that is a problem, its properly crediting where you get stuff from
heres the simple fact: if you take a fix from someone else's rom, you credit where it came from..
how hard is this? i mean really
since your singling me out, ill single out eclipticsense or whatever its called now
for awhile during its updates, whenever something was fixed...there was never credit to who the fix came from
ie, lowveld fixed browser downloads for the sense 4.0 defined roms...i implemented it the fix from the desire s...hawk took the browser.apk from ukb and didnt say where it came from just mentioned that it was fixed
etiquette dictates you go: *credit to lowveld for browser download fix (in your op)
and the vast majority of the tweaks implemented recently in that rom came from just take the methods from ukb and changing "tweaks" to "suite_tools" in the defintion
in some cases it was just taking apks from ukb and changing that line...like taking the mms.apk from ukb and actually having duplicate methods in the smali (tweaks and suite tools lol)
but was there credit to either pkmn/venom for the code i implemented? no....was there credit to me for porting it in (and in many cases modding it to work right)? no
virtuous team wasnt even mentioned in the credits over there until recently, despite all the things they fixed prior to m10 resizing
if that rom had been released on xda or rootzwiki with the op in the shape its in, it would have been reported and closed quickly...but since its on its own site, that can exist
i had no problem with sharing stuff w/ hawk...and in fact never said no when he asked to use something for months, whether it was lockscreens/fusion/etc...all i asked (about 20 times) was that he properly credit where he was taking stuff from, and time after time he didnt...i did find it amusing to diff his updates vs ukb updates and see that 90% of changed bins/libs/files came from ukb, but w/e
the tweaks implementation was the last straw and i was finally done
if you dont site work on a term paper/essay/research paper you are in a world of trouble....think of a rom that way
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Click to collapse
Clearly my point is being missed here as well... And, btw, if there are things in eclipse from ukb without any credits given, send me a list in pm and I'll update the op...
The trend lately, and I know everyones seen this, is "this mod is mine, dont use my stuff without permission". Which is totally fine up to the point when the dev tells you no for permissions. Exclusivity is causing more harm than good here.
IMHO, if It's posted here, anyone should have the right to use it (as long as It's credited). Not saying don't ask first, that's a matter of respect, just saying devs need to stop with the selfish behaviour. For most newbies, a no just gives an excuse to pirate the work and make small changes to call it theirs... By opening up and sharing such things, gives newbies the opportunity to grow a contribute more. Most, if not all, of us are here to learn, play and contribute. Those who hog the sandbox push others out who might otherwise would have made bigger and better contributions... It starts with devs stopping the "that's my jar" attitude and maybe wording it differently... Saying yes more and adapting a sharing attitude is much more productive!
Sent from my HTC Incredible 2 using xda premium

if you dont site work on a term paper/essay/research paper you are in a world of trouble....think of a rom that way
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pla·gia·rism   [pley-juh-riz-uhm, -jee-uh-riz-] Show IPA
noun
1.
an act or instance of using or closely imitating the language and thoughts of another author without authorization and the representation of that author's work as one's own, as by not crediting the original author: It is said that he plagiarized Thoreau's plagiarism of a line written by Montaigne. Synonyms: appropriation, infringement, piracy, counterfeiting; theft, borrowing, cribbing, passing off.
2.
a piece of writing or other work reflecting such unauthorized use or imitation: “These two manuscripts are clearly plagiarisms,” the editor said, tossing them angrily on the floor. (Taken from dictionary.com)
See how easily I credited the site I used?
Plagiarism is looked at as a crime in the college and professional world. Most colleges will kick you right out of school if they catch you plagiarizing. It really is a big deal and it sticks with you through out your life. All schools will see what you did and probably won't accept you after that happens.
I hated citing work as a student but once you learn the proper way to do it, it is very easy and takes no time at all. I'm no dev. but I can understand how other devs would be mad to see their work being used without being properly credited. It's really about respect towards the other dev to give them their credit for whatever it is they helped fix. In my opinion using someone elses work as your own not only makes you look foolish, but it is a total smack in the face to the dev that found the "fix".
That type of stuff would not fly in the professional world because no big name company wants their name tarnished because someone under their belt couldn't properly cite or do the work they initially thought they could do. Even if the dev is very talented, getting caught plagiarizing one simple thing could make them look like a fraud.
Again, I'm no dev but I 100% agree with Nit on this. Maybe one day when someone steals your work and uses it as their own you might change you stance on this.

Macrodroid said:
Clearly my point is being missed here as well... And, btw, if there are things in eclipse from ukb without any credits given, send me a list in pm and I'll update the op...
The trend lately, and I know everyones seen this, is "this mod is mine, dont use my stuff without permission". Which is totally fine up to the point when the dev tells you no for permissions. Exclusivity is causing more harm than good here.
IMHO, if It's posted here, anyone should have the right to use it (as long as It's credited). Not saying don't ask first, that's a matter of respect, just saying devs need to stop with the selfish behaviour. For most newbies, a no just gives an excuse to pirate the work and make small changes to call it theirs... By opening up and sharing such things, gives newbies the opportunity to grow a contribute more. Most, if not all, of us are here to learn, play and contribute. Those who hog the sandbox push others out who might otherwise would have made bigger and better contributions... It starts with devs stopping the "that's my jar" attitude and maybe wording it differently... Saying yes more and adapting a sharing attitude is much more productive!
Sent from my HTC Incredible 2 using xda premium
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Click to collapse
the vast majority of what i release im fine with other people using, in parts (obviously changing one thing and rereleasing a rom isnt kosher) as long as credit is properly given
as for the use of other's work in general, if i a dev or group has their own policy on sharing then its up to them ultimately
im associated with team venom for porting viper rom, but by no means i am in charge of anything...j4n87 and monarx are the brains behind the tweaks/code/etc and ultimately set things the way they are...
for a long time when the two of them were doing leedroid tweaks they had an open sharing policy: pm them and ask (they always said yes), dont change the credits in the gui app, and then wait a week after release before using/including them in other's roms
however, no one seemed to respect that (or many didnt) and changed the credits in the app, didnt link back to the original, didnt wait a week, or never bothered to pm them....often citing the execuse "roman didnt care when he originally made tweaks"...which wasnt really true since roman had a 2 week waiting period on using his tweaks after he released it, and actually pulled the source from github after awhile cuz he was getting pissed that everyone was using it at will the next day
i think a time frame exclusivity is more than fair in regards to sharing, but if that can't be respected by multiple individuals....then the current situation w/ team venom's sharing policy happens
and at this point i guess i no longer really care if eclipticsense's credits are updated properly...its on its own site and i no longer have anything to do w/ hawk....they should have been from the beginning or at any point it was brought up, and thats that