looks like i was wrong & MS is being a A$$
there arent letting browser devs use native code at the moment...this is wack, IE better be the bomb or else this is gonna suck
From Mozilla
"While we think Windows Phone 7 looks interesting and has the potential to do well in the market, Microsoft has unfortunately decided to close off development to native applications. Because of this, we won’t be able to provide Firefox for Windows Phone 7 at this time. Given that Microsoft is staking their future in mobile on Windows Mobile 7 (not 6.5) and because we don’t know if or when Microsoft will release a native development kit, we are putting our Windows Mobile development on hold"
http://wmpoweruser.com/?p=14599
No native code = no alternative browers. At least not anytime soon.
That was clear all along.
You're not going to see any "big" applications on WP7S. Fart apps and twitter clients are easy to do, however...
A twitter client is already on board isn't it?
Probably they'll also add a fart app to the final retail version. so the only thing you could do is add customized fart sounds!
I really wish it was different but to be honest I don't see any potential for interesting apps on WP7.
seems counter-productive to not release their native client to bigger development studios as yet. They certainly want a library of applications for launch, it's a bit strange they the silverlight/xna libraries 1st, when those would typically be shorter to right than something like a Firefox, Opera, etc.
gom99 said:
seems counter-productive to not release their native client to bigger development studios as yet. They certainly want a library of applications for launch, it's a bit strange they the silverlight/xna libraries 1st, when those would typically be shorter to right than something like a Firefox, Opera, etc.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yeah but firefox did take awhile to produce nothing on Wm6 with access to native code so maybe MS doesnt trust them with native code cuz those fennec browser cause the phone to crash sometimes..im holding out hope that they give opera permission
gom99 said:
seems counter-productive to not release their native client to bigger development studios as yet. They certainly want a library of applications for launch, it's a bit strange they the silverlight/xna libraries 1st, when those would typically be shorter to right than something like a Firefox, Opera, etc.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
.NET apps are much quicker to develop than native stuff. That's why they focus on .NET. They will eventually have quite a big app library by the end of the year, but most of it will be "fart apps".
Will there ever be an NDK? Who knows...
C:Sharp! said:
No native code = no alternative browers. At least not anytime soon.
That was clear all along.
You're not going to see any "big" applications on WP7S. Fart apps and twitter clients are easy to do, however...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
LOL..I hate those fart apps...or fart jokes for that matter.
The latest IE that I have on the Prime-II ROM is very good at rendering and formatting the columns for readibility, esp when used in mobile mode. Panning large pages is also very smooth and does not show any blank/white "still loading" when moving rapidly left or right or top or down. I actually stopped using opera because it suck memory and still shows white spaces when panning pages.
I'm using the word "fart apps" as an explanation for a certain kind of apps. I don't mean that they're all useless, but they're the kind of apps that are easy to develop in .NET and will likely form the majority of apps that we'll see in the WP7S marketplace by the end of the year.
(To be honest, I'm also going to make some . Useful ones, however.)
C:Sharp! said:
.NET apps are much quicker to develop than native stuff.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
But .NET in Windows -- at least from my understanding -- has access to native/lower-level APIs.
See: PowerShell, which is unashamedly built directly on top of .NET, and yet is a viable replacement to the command prompt due to the fact it can do pretty much anything.
Spike15 said:
But .NET in Windows -- at least from my understanding -- has access to native/lower-level APIs.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, that's correct. You can do that via P/Invoke.
You could also do that on Windows Mobile.
But not on Windows Phone 7, this feature is officially gone.
C:Sharp! said:
But not on Windows Phone 7, this feature is officially gone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I had guessed.
I was just pointing out that .NET on Windows Mobile and Windows is more powerful than it's going to be on Windows Phone.
C:Sharp! said:
I'm using the word "fart apps" as an explanation for a certain kind of apps. I don't mean that they're all useless, but they're the kind of apps that are easy to develop in .NET and will likely form the majority of apps that we'll see in the WP7S marketplace by the end of the year.
(To be honest, I'm also going to make some . Useful ones, however.)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
make some musical ones, to live up to your name!
Hehe
But actually, the name is inspired by the programming language.
No more. Now you will be a music apps developer for WP7!
Maybe. But they have to be programmed in C# nevertheless
C# is the language that's used for .NET, thus all development for WP7 will be done in C#, in case you didn't know.
C:Sharp! said:
Maybe. But they have to be programmed in C# nevertheless
C# is the language that's used for .NET, thus all development for WP7 will be done in C#, in case you didn't know.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nope. I did not know. Thanks for the info. Now I know just a bit more about the WP7 platform
havox22 said:
looks like i was wrong & MS is being a A$$
there arent letting browser devs use native code at the moment...this is wack, IE better be the bomb or else this is gonna suck
From Mozilla
"While we think Windows Phone 7 looks interesting and has the potential to do well in the market, Microsoft has unfortunately decided to close off development to native applications. Because of this, we won’t be able to provide Firefox for Windows Phone 7 at this time. Given that Microsoft is staking their future in mobile on Windows Mobile 7 (not 6.5) and because we don’t know if or when Microsoft will release a native development kit, we are putting our Windows Mobile development on hold"
http://wmpoweruser.com/?p=14599
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am sure .net framework in wp7s can access all hardware,so why Mozilla need native api access? just performance issues...but Mozilla do a sucked Firefox on WM6.X
Finally, I think .net framework good enough to develop great browser and developer can get benefit by GUI Acceleration
Managed is slow? May be but not critical
http://www.grimes.demon.co.uk/dotnet/man_unman.htm
It's not just about performance. A browser is a huge complex app with millions of lines of code. You can't just sit down and rewrite it in a different language when your engine is done in C++ for all platforms. That's a massive endeavor that will cost millions of dollars. In addition to that, there's no access to APIs necessary to do it. You can't open a socket and work with it directly in WP7's Silverlight.
vangrieg said:
It's not just about performance. A browser is a huge complex app with millions of lines of code. You can't just sit down and rewrite it in a different language when your engine is done in C++ for all platforms. That's a massive endeavor that will cost millions of dollars. In addition to that, there's no access to APIs necessary to do it. You can't open a socket and work with it directly in WP7's Silverlight.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So,this is not .net or Wp7 problem
All about the money
Everything in business is about money, so what? Restricting development to Silverlight makes developing alternative browsers for WP7 impossible because of a huge investment barrier.
Related
Applications that were made for Windows Mobile 6 are compatible with Windows Phone 7 Series. The interface of the new mobile operating system has been changed though, so the user interface for these applications will have to be changed as well.
"So there is no reason why programs written for Windows Mobile 6 cannot run on the new version of the OS", said Maarten Sonneveld of Microsoft Netherlands to Tweakers.net. "The interface is complete different though, so the applications will have to be changed somewhat before being ready for Windows Phone 7 Series".
It is still unclear how developers can port their user interfaces to the new version of Windows Mobile. Microsoft will only disclose how applications can be developed and distributed at their developer event Mix2010.
Microsoft announced it’s new OS on Monday afternoon at the Mobile World Congress in Barcelona. The OS is primarily aimed at synchronisation and integration with Microsft-services like Windows Live, Bing, Zune and Xbox Live. Aside from those Windows Phone 7 Series can also synchronise with Google-accounts and facebook.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Source
So in summary, while none of the current applications will run on it, the underlying non-UI APIs will be compatible. So if understand correctly, porting would just a case of redeveloping the UI then recompiling, rather than starting completely from scratch. This acts to filter out apps with no more developer support, and promote a consistent UI.
Doesn't sound too bad to me.
That might explain why TomTom was seen on that screenshot of WP7 running on the HD2 (although, it could be a fake!). TomTom takes control of the screen, so uses no WM interface elements. So, it might be able to run full-screen apps/games without changes.
But, who knows...
elyl said:
That might explain why TomTom was seen on that screenshot of WP7 running on the HD2 (although, it could be a fake!). TomTom takes control of the screen, so uses no WM interface elements. So, it might be able to run full-screen apps/games without changes.
But, who knows...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I was just thinking the same except if you use the included .net controls, there's no reason that the OS couldn't just reskin them automatically to be at least somewhat more in line with the WP7 styling.
This would be excellent if it's true - and I can't see why it wouldn't be. The UI may be new but why throw away a perfectly good underlying core.
What would also be ideal is if the "multi-tasking" involved an app being set to pause in the background by default, but with a "keep me running" API call available for apps that needed it. I'm sure most apps hog resourses not because they need to but because the developer hasn't really thought about how the rest of the device performs when his app has been left running.
Makes sense, WindowsCE core is still the same
Zaim2 said:
Applications that were made for Windows Mobile 6 are compatible with Windows Phone 7 Series
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Absolutely wrong statement due to incorrect translation. Original: "De interface van Windows Phone 7 Series is totaal anders, waardoor er in elk geval iets aan de applicaties moet gebeuren voordat ze geschikt zijn voor Windows Phone 7 Series"
Even google translates it correctly:
"The interface of Windows 7 Phone Series is different, which in any case something should happen to the applications before they are suitable for Windows 7 Phone Series".
We have some "ms confidential" documentation dated January 2010 that proves that none of the existing apps would be compatible with WinPhone7. And the only programming suite that is available to "generic" application-writers is Silverlight+XNA. Native apps are prohibited. Only OEMs and MO are allowed to create them (and even they have a set of limitations).
We would not have even source code compatibility - as all our C++ apps have to be converted to .NET.
mamaich said:
We have some "ms confidential" documentation dated January 2010...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What the heck? And you say that only now? What else is in there? Any word about how background tasks are handled? Please give us some more information, or maybe, can you upload that documentation?
freyberry said:
maybe, can you upload that documentation?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Obviously I cannot. As it would reveal the person who provided it.
Just to prove that such info really exists - see attached screenshots.
I really hope that the community would force MS to change such a dumb idea to limit independent software vendors to create only managed apps. Prohibiting C++ as a developing language, and "hiding" Windows API from programmer would force lots of developers to abandon this platform. The main reason of success of old WinMobile OSes was the ability to recompile "desktop" apps to WinMobile with just a minor set of changes (ANSI->Unicode + some interface changes).
P.S. I don't read PMs.
Obviously I cannot. As it would reveal the person who provided it.
Just to prove that such info really exists - see attached screenshots.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, there's certainly a way to remove that information. But anyway, what about background tasks? Are third party applications allowed to run in the background?
mamaich said:
Obviously I cannot. As it would reveal the person who provided it.
Just to prove that such info really exists - see attached screenshots.
I really hope that the community would force MS to change such a dumb idea to limit independent software vendors to create only managed apps. Prohibiting C++ as a developing language, and "hiding" Windows API from programmer would force lots of developers to abandon this platform. The main reason of success of old WinMobile OSes was the ability to recompile "desktop" apps to WinMobile with just a minor set of changes (ANSI->Unicode + some interface changes).
P.S. I don't read PMs.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Wow, I can't believe noone has picked up on this
freyberry said:
Are third party applications allowed to run in the background?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
OS itself supports multitasking, see attach. But "Windows Phone OS 7.0 Application Platform" that we'll be forced to use to create apps may force our application to be paused in background. I never programmed Silverlight and XNA and can't tell how multitatsking is made in them.
WinPhone 7 == Zune Phone. Both are based on CE kernel, and they should have lots of common in implementation of multitasking, clipboard, etc.
OS itself supports multitasking, see attach. But "Windows Phone OS 7.0 Application Platform" that we'll be forced to use to create apps may force our application to be paused in background.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The question is, can we write applications that are not automatically suspended when sent to the background? What are the policies on this?
It says multiple processes can run at the same time, but it does not say whether they get suspended automatically.
Is there any info on this? Maybe in the "Scheduling" section?
I’m not sure this is a big deal. I can see them saying a lot of native C++ apps may have compatibility issues. I could go either way on it with the limited amount of information I have on this. I’ll have a better opinion at and after MIX
Note that this could be old documentation, and it’s pretty annoying you're leaking confidential documentation. Personally, I hope you get into trouble for breaking your contract - they trust you and you're posting it? Yuck.
To be fair, though, every app we’ve written has been managed, and Microsoft hasn't t said P/Invoking is verboten, so what would be the problem?
There’s probably exceptions for games and the like, and the documents you've scanned even say a waiver is available to use the Native APIs. So I don’t know what you're complaining about…
Microsoft's dev teams have been listening to developers - why not get them to chime in and also give them a chance to hear you. Posting confidential Microsoft documents, assuming those are real, is not the way to get them to listen
Best,
-Auri
freyberry said:
The question is, can we write applications that are not automatically suspended when sent to the background? What are the policies on this?
It says multiple processes can run at the same time, but it does not say whether they get suspended automatically.
Is there any info on this? Maybe in the "Scheduling" section?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Personally, I like Android's approach to this, where Services can run in the background, but UI apps are allowed to be "put to sleep" while other apps run. But then again, we may see a lot of that come into play come MIX and "Answer Time"
Best,
-Auri
Well, I am now both excited and nervous -I think I will just cool my jets until MIX10 and just enjoy the eye candy for now. At worst - if the interface is nice, but the core is crap I am sure some of the boys here at xda will make us an inteface port for 6.5.x that acts and looks like the new hotness with the old compatibility. - lets see MIX
AuriRahimzadeh said:
Note that this could be old documentation, and it’s pretty annoying you're leaking confidential documentation.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Docs are dated 2010.
I'm not leaking the documentation. I'm sharing the information that anyway would be opened in some days, maybe weeks.
And screens are posted here just as a confirmation of my words. You may think that these pics come from my mind and are made with photoshop - it is your opinion.
I really think that WinPhone 7 would be a failure similar to desktop Vista. Of cause some people would like it, but most would stay on WM 6.x and wait for the next version.
Regarding P/Invoke. As far as I've seen, "unsafe" operations are prohibited in XNA and Silverlight. Otherwise we would be able to call coredll funcs and run native apps (and do everything else that is allowed in our chamber).
mamaich said:
Docs are dated 2010.
I'm not leaking the documentation. I'm sharing the information that anyway would be opened in some days, maybe weeks.
And screens are posted here just as a confirmation of my words. You may think that these pics come from my mind and are made with photoshop - it is your opinion.
I really think that WinPhone 7 would be a failure similar to desktop Vista. Of cause some people would like it, but most would stay on WM 6.x and wait for the next version.
Regarding P/Invoke. As far as I've seen, "unsafe" operations are prohibited in XNA and Silverlight. Otherwise we would be able to call coredll funcs and run native apps (and do everything else that is allowed in our chamber).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Mamaich any though of a WP7 ce6.0 bsp for all the current cortex A8 devices running on a ce5.2 bsp, will the new kernel support them natively or will extensive bsp/bootloader hacking be required?
P/invoke surely is a limitation of .NET CF, rather than Silverlight/XNA libraries?
I think it would be a bit stupid to remove P/Invoking, because it's just not realistic to rely on .NETCF alone which has soooo much stuff stripped out to minimize size.
Will we be seeing a whole new .NETCF so soon after 3.5? I highly doubt it...Unless MS have been working overtime the past year
Shame, time to stop mobile development altogether if this is true. When we developers are considered as dumb earning pipes for companies who in their arrogant big ways think they have all the wisdom, and app developers only make annoying software that makes their precious leaky OS'es crash, it's time to move on. i would have been talking about IPhone, Android etc, but sadly we must add Microsoft to the list also.
Then there's the $1195,- and airplane tickets we have to pay to get to the Mix2010 in oder to maybe maybe get to be a "partner" with access to limited native API's (probably only reserved for the big companies) and don't even bother talking about giving away 30% of our earnings to a company that last year made how many billions of profits was it ?
Time to start an XDA OS based on REAL Linux maybe ? NVidia have a nice dev-board available for $400,- with Tegra on it. That's what I call developer friendly.
Cheers !
Regardless of how this will play out, I'm pretty sure of two things:
1. Closing down the OS may be beneficial for the majority of users by bringing stability, ease of use, UI consistency, etc. Even though I don't like it.
2. Because the OS itself is multitasking, any and all restrictions may be hacked around, and a "jailbreak" will be possible.
Depending on how this whole thing will be implemented, jailbreaking and using "illegal" apps may be a major PITA (think iPhone 3GS/tethered jailbreak) or as easy as a few registry tweaks/installing additional certs/whatever. If Apple didn't chase JB with every update it would be a rather good platform for both mainstream "ordinary" users and those who want rather unusual things from their phones.
We'll have to wait and see how it evolves really to make a final judgment.
"For us, the cost of going from good to great is a clean break from the past. To enable the fantastic user experiences you’ve seen in the Windows Phone 7 Series demos so far we’ve had to break from the past. To deliver what developers expect in the developer platform we’ve had to change how phone apps were written. One result of this is previous Windows mobile applications will not run on Windows Phone 7 Series."
http://blogs.msdn.com/ckindel/archi...e-new-windows-phone-developer-experience.aspx
He also specifically mentions developers in it for learning and fun. I have to think they'll embrace free apps and not charge a dev $99 to submit an app if it's going to be free.
Another softie's blog post on the topic... http://www.artificialignorance.net/...ne-7-series-developers-developers-developers/
Yupe, and all WM5.x, WM6.x applications will NOT run on WP7:
To enable the fantastic user experiences you’ve seen in the Windows Phone 7 Series demos so far we’ve had to break from the past. To deliver what developers expect in the developer platform we’ve had to change how phone apps were written. One result of this is previous Windows mobile applications will not run on Windows Phone 7 Series.
Well, this is just a NEW mobile OS, it is not an upgrade / update of current WM, this kinda expected.
From the article:
ckindle article said:
We took the feedback we gathered from developers, looked at the full potential of Windows Phone 7 Series and landed on 3 basic goals for the platform we’re delivering;
1. Enable end users to be able to personalize their phone experience through a large library of innovative, compelling, games and applications.
2. Enable developers to profit.
3. Advance the “3 screen plus cloud” vision
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Definitely WP7 is customizable, this is good, but how far the customization will be? For sure, no more Sense UI, TouchFlo kind of customization, nor SpB Mobile Shell.
I hope a "launcher" like still possible? Microsoft mentioned that we can put app as a tile in the start screen. I am wondering if that app would be some kind of app launcher ... icons grid
ckindle article said:
When we talk with developers we hear them talk about three different “currencies”: making money, learning, and recognition. Some developers are in it for the money. They are either literally being paid to write code or they are writing code with the hope it will generate coin.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This could mean professional mobile developer who earn and make money for living developing mobile applications.
Give them free tools! free submission charge! That would certainly be more attractive.
ckindle article said:
Other developers tell us they are interested in advancing their knowledge – love of the game. They love learning about computers, programming, games, social connections, etc… So they build software to learn. They profit by being smarter.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Does this mean "hobbyist" aka XDA dev?
ckindle article said:
Other developers are clearly motivated by pride. Maybe there’s a bit of money and learning involved, but to these developers being noticed or recognized as doing wickedly epic sh*t is top of the list for how they measure profit.
We think all three “currencies” are valid and important and we are explicitly trying to build the platform and developer experience to support “profit” in each.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Or this?
From what I'm reading MS is actually listening to all of us and I think that is a damn good thing.
gogol said:
Definitely WP7 is customizable, this is good, but how far the customization will be? For sure, no more Sense UI, TouchFlo kind of customization, nor SpB Mobile Shell.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As far as I know it OEMs are not allowed to add their own UI extension, but I didn't hear it that you can't just add a 3rd party app like Morbid Shell. It's only an app, and you can install apps, can't you!?
RAMMANN said:
As far as I know it OEMs are not allowed to add their own UI extension, but I didn't hear it that you can't just add a 3rd party app like Morbid Shell. It's only an app, and you can install apps, can't you!?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's much more than an app.
@gogol Tiles can also be shortcuts. But I doubt that one tile can link to multiple apps.
seed_al said:
It's much more than an app.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I know what Morbid Shell is. But by definition it's an app. You download it from Marketplace or somewhere and install the cab. Sense is not a cab but part of the ROM and you can say part of the OS. That's the difference as I see it.
Catalyst
WP7 is the catalyst that is getting me back into school to learn code. I have a degree in electrical engineering, but with the possibilities unfolding in the mobile OS world today, I want to be apart of that. The Star Trek dream has begun.
Don't expect any Haret.exe this time around.
This has turned into the same crap Apple did, a retarded OS for retards that have no clue in anything, but like the "oh so cool" flashy menus.
I think in regards to haret we are forgetting one very important thing as we compare this to iphone
jailbreak does broaden the possibilities on the iphone so I'm not so sure this is the total end of haret
what if the tiles based home screen is just a today plugin like Sense is, wouldn't we be able to disable it? if so, maybe the devs here @ xda can come with a kickass UI xperience. i've got some great and unique ideas... too bad i'm not a codewarrior.
hyellow said:
what if the tiles based home screen is just a today plugin like Sense is, wouldn't we be able to disable it? if so, maybe the devs here @ xda can come with a kickass UI xperience. i've got some great and unique ideas... too bad i'm not a codewarrior.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm pretty sure that the start screen on WP7 is definitely not a plug-in of any kind. It's hardcoded to the system and as far as we have been told no one is allowed to write different UI's on top of it. Not to say that it won't be possible. It just won't be carriers and OEM's doing it.
So basically... this means we probably won't be seeing apps like Opera Mobile (or any custom web browsing rendering engine), and things like that, that are really required to be written in native code for speed.
~Johnny said:
So basically... this means we probably won't be seeing apps like Opera Mobile (or any custom web browsing rendering engine), and things like that, that are really required to be written in native code for speed.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't believe so. These are still apps. MS is creating a single baseline that all developers will be able to use so the platform is uniform and easier to develop for. This will create a stable Windows Mobile experience and hopefully make it more enjoyable for noobs and vets alike without providers and manufacturers messing it up. Opera and Opera Mini are simply applications so they should be able to work once developed for the new UI and OS.
Opera and Opera Mini are simply applications so they should be able to work once developed for the new UI and OS.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's not that simple.
Of course
seed_al said:
It's not that simple.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
seed_al said:
It's not that simple.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Please explain.
Re browsers, you just won't ever get decent performance with managed code, so you need native. Even if you could, porting the whole thing to a new language would just be too expensive. Most people just seriously underestimate how complex browser engines are these days.
Opera Mini, on the other hand, is of course perfectly possible, it's not a browser really.
And I have no problem at all with Opera Mini, except Flash ... but for that, I use SkyFire or YouTube app.
Opera Mini would be my top app to port to WP7 ... because I doubt the new IE is good to use.
vangrieg said:
Re browsers, you just won't ever get decent performance with managed code, so you need native. Even if you could, porting the whole thing to a new language would just be too expensive. Most people just seriously underestimate how complex browser engines are these days.
Opera Mini, on the other hand, is of course perfectly possible, it's not a browser really.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
vangrieg said:
Re browsers, you just won't ever get decent performance with managed code, so you need native. Even if you could, porting the whole thing to a new language would just be too expensive. Most people just seriously underestimate how complex browser engines are these days.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yep, and Opera have their own engine. They still have not even released their Android port. Opera Mobile on WP7 is not going to happen anytime soon.
Same for lots of other things that heavily rely on native code or are hard to port over.
Sorry, guys. It's just not that simple.
Another damning indictment of Microsoft, there will be no Firefox for WP7S.
Will other software companies follow?
Will Microsoft face another court battle for effectively locking out software developers and forcing them into a managed code playground?
The Vole announced the Windows Phone 7 Series at last month's World Mobile Congress and it represents the last chance for Microsoft to make an impact on the mobile phone market. Microsoft took a clean slate approach to the operating system that resulted in thousands of pre-existing applications becoming incompatible. To hinder matters further, its development policies aren't all that conducive for would-be developers.
This has led Stuart Parmenter, head honcho of mobile software development at Mozilla to announce that the developer of the popular open source browser Firefox has stopped working on porting the browser to all Windows Mobile operating systems, including the upcoming Windows Phone 7 Series.
http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1597631/no-firefox-windows-mobile
constructorx said:
Another damning indictment of M$, there will be no Firefox for WP7S.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Mozilla Foundatioin (or is it Corporation now?) has been unable to make a decent mobile browser for years despite all attempts. So while it is true that MS is efficiently banning 3rd party browsers by not allowing native coding, MoFo is the last organization to complain about it.
vangrieg said:
Mozilla Foundatioin (or is it Corporation now?) has been unable to make a decent mobile browser for years despite all attempts. So while it is true that MS is efficiently banning 3rd party browsers by not allowing native coding, MoFo is the last organization to complain about it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's exactly what I thought as well. If only then Opera can complain about anything.... I guess they had put quite some efforts into their release for WM!
LOL, I was was reading 3 years ago that They were releasing a WM browser. Nothing has come of that, so why would people care.
The bigger picture is if MS start to loose Other large developers such as Opera, they have already lost Skype. If MS don;t reach a decent number of end users, these big companies won't bother developing anything for WinPhoS.
logicalstep
Opera isn't a large company by any measure, and most of its revenues come from mobile devices (although I suspect that it's mostly Mini). So WP7 will hit their income rather seriously unless the situation with native APIs changes. Opera Mobile on the iPhone isn't possible due to Appstore rules (no code interpretation for apps), so Android and Symbian are the only platforms where they can be present ATM (yeah, there's this Maemo and stuff, but it doesn't count).
I think it's funny when everyone types M$. Do you guys think it's cool or something? What are you trying to prove?
krjcook said:
I think it's funny when everyone types M$.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You probably meant "silly".
I doubt "M$" will face a court battle for monopolising the browser on mobile phones. Apple has not faced any charges, and they are much closer to a monopoly on smartphones that WP7S will ever be for the near future.
Microsoft faced anti-competition laws because they had the monopoly on desktop operating systems, and were bundling their own browser with it. They have nowhere near a monopoly on smartphones, and it's likely they never will.
LOL @ damning indictment because no FF on a phone.
Get real! FF is not the be-all end-all, ESPECIALLY on mobile phones.
vangrieg said:
Opera isn't a large company by any measure, and most of its revenues come from mobile devices (although I suspect that it's mostly Mini). So WP7 will hit their income rather seriously unless the situation with native APIs changes. Opera Mobile on the iPhone isn't possible due to Appstore rules (no code interpretation for apps), so Android and Symbian are the only platforms where they can be present ATM (yeah, there's this Maemo and stuff, but it doesn't count).
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Click to collapse
Opera won't have any problems developing a browser for WP7S. Since their technology of downloading screenshots from their servers (they call it Turbo) is nothing that needs direct API calls - they showed it already by using Java earlier.
Now, they just ported it to native code with Opera Mini 5 - but it will also be possible to port it to Silverlight if it worked in Java.
So, Firefox isn't big of a loss, but the reasons in fact are. Not everything will be possible with Silverlight/XNA. And sooner or later some big business client will come up to MS and ask for a NDK....
I personally think this is more related to Mozilla's lack of dedication and experience in mobile devices which is why they stopped developing for 6.5. Obviously nothing was hard about it since Opera's been doing a great job for years, as has Skyfire. Their alpha of Fennec for WinMo was crap so it's better off that they leave that scene. Maybe they will have better luck on Android. Don't know much about WP7S development so I can't speculate there.
Cipher said:
Opera won't have any problems developing a browser for WP7S. Since their technology of downloading screenshots from their servers (they call it Turbo) is nothing that needs direct API calls
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Click to collapse
You're confusing Opera Mobile with Opera Mini.
Opera Mini was entirely programmed in Java and runs on all sorts of handsets (that feature Java).
Opera Mobile is a full browser. It's arguably the best browser for Windows Mobile to date.
We most certainly won't see Opera Mobile on Windows Phone, for the same reason that we won't see Firefox on Windows Phone: The lack of native APIs.
mazzarin said:
LOL @ damning indictment because no FF on a phone.
Get real! FF is not the be-all end-all, ESPECIALLY on mobile phones.
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Click to collapse
LOL @ you. You don't understand the situation. We won't see ANY alternative browsers on WP7.
Cipher said:
OSince their technology of downloading screenshots from their servers (they call it Turbo) is nothing that needs direct API calls - they showed it already by using Java earlier.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You are describing Opera Mini, not Opera Mobile. Opera Turbo is also not Opera Mini, it's just a proxy that compresses images, but the browser engine is still working with standard web pages.
C:Sharp! said:
You're confusing Opera Mobile with Opera Mini.
Opera Mini was entirely programmed in Java and runs on all sorts of handsets (that feature Java).
Opera Mobile is a full browser. It's arguably the best browser for Windows Mobile to date.
We most certainly won't see Opera Mobile on Windows Phone, for the same reason that we won't see Firefox on Windows Phone: The lack of native APIs.
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Click to collapse
Sorry for not speaking clearly.
I am not confusing Opera Mobile with Opera Mini. I've been talking about Opera Mini. And the latest Opera Mini 5 Beta runs natively on Windows Mobile (not Java anymore).
The Turbo Feature is also implemented in Opera Mobile which makes it render pages similar to the way that Opera Mini does.
Though, I am assuming that development of Opera Mobile will be discontinued in long terms in favor of Opera Mini - especially regarding WP7S.
Still, you don't get the point.
We're not talking about something like the Opera Mini here, we're talking about real browsers.
krjcook said:
I think it's funny when everyone types M$. Do you guys think it's cool or something? What are you trying to prove?
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Click to collapse
Didn't you know?! Microsoft actually charge money for software! Actual money, in exchange in for goods and services! The cheek!
C:Sharp! said:
LOL @ you. You don't understand the situation. We won't see ANY alternative browsers on WP7.
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Click to collapse
Whatever you say!
Why do people care? Its a horrible browser and Mircosofts mobile browsers are alright- also Opera will prob come out with one, and they do awesome work.
The browser on the ZuneHD is pretty good and WP7 will be using a similar version with a bit more to it so I don't see a problem with just using their's. As long as the native browser is good there isn't any need to load other ones in the first place.
Hey!
So I want to buy the HTC Mozart, but I am not quite sure, because if there is no good community it wont be worth the money. So does anyone know if somebody is working on a root or jailbreak for wp7?
It would make the platform even greater
Thanks in advance!
People are working on it. I'd be surprised if there isn't a jailbreak available in 3 months after it is released.
Ok thanks I am just interested as the beta was already available and the roms have leaked in the htc Mozart category.
To general!
~~Tito~~
the windows mobile community is the reason this message board exists. I wouldn't worry.
Sent from my Dell Streak using XDA App
Made2Last said:
the windows mobile community is the reason this message board exists. I wouldn't worry.
Sent from my Dell Streak using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This ^
Also, XDA calls "root or jailbreak" for WM "HardSPL"
ericc191 said:
This ^
Also, XDA calls "root or jailbreak" for WM "HardSPL"
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Click to collapse
"HardSPL" is a bootloader that allows custom Windows ROMs - like flashing to BIOS in your PC to a 3rd party version
Windows doesn't have the concept of a "root or jailbreak" because there is no root account or Jail Shell.
ericc191 said:
This ^
Also, XDA calls "root or jailbreak" for WM "HardSPL"
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Click to collapse
WM (Windows Mobile) is not equivalent to WP or (Windows Phone) Windows Mobile is the past, Windows Phone is Microsoft moving forward. I think they might actually have something with this new OS
Mhh interesting Thanks!
I tested the OS and it feels great, like my iphone 2g at first and after JB i noticed that it is crap without JB XD so just wondering ^^
~~Tito~~ said:
To general!
~~Tito~~
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Again To general.
This just discusses WP7, it does not contribute anything developmental wise, just discussion wise .
~~Tito~~
I don't see much of a point in jailbreaking, because there's absolutely squat in regards to API documentation of Iris UIX. No one will be able to write up alternates to the system components.
The only thing that'll make sense right now is unbrand phones, to get carriers out of the loop in regards of updates.
Some of these people think wp7 is ios with a new skin. Let them keep asking about this, Lol.
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App
N8ter said:
Some of these people think wp7 is ios with a new skin. Let them keep asking about this, Lol.
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I do not think that this is IOS with a skin!!
I just wanted to know if something like jb or root will come!
Not JB per se but only the concept of being able to do stuff MS doesnt want to!
@Tom Servo
I am not sure but isnt it running on a silverlight platform so it would be rather easy to develop different apps?
A large part of the base system, especially UI, is .NET code but uses a different framework called Iris UIX. It's a descendant of the MCE graphics framework, and also used in the Zune desktop software.
Third party applications are forced to use Silverlight instead.
That's also why there's a disconnect between UI features and performance between the first party and third party apps.
Tom Servo said:
A large part of the base system, especially UI, is .NET code but uses a different framework called Iris UIX. It's a descendant of the MCE graphics framework, and also used in the Zune desktop software.
Third party applications are forced to use Silverlight instead.
That's also why there's a disconnect between UI features and performance between the first party and third party apps.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Oh ok thanks!
Now thats kinda stupid from them.....
A long time ago, they hired more developers to work on UIX. Seems like they were more occupied porting it to mobile devices than documenting it and prepping it for general release, or something.
I still hope that it'll be made public at some point in time. It seems to be a way better solution than WPF, judging both the phones and the Zune software, even tho the majority of it is still .NET. Maybe a little less flexible, tho. Seems like some teams over at Microsoft went like "**** it, this is overengineered slow crap" and continued to work on MCML, which turned into UIX.
WPF was on the table long before the flashy Zune client ever came to be, which is also mostly .NET. That tells you something.
Tom Servo said:
I don't see much of a point in jailbreaking, because there's absolutely squat in regards to API documentation of Iris UIX. No one will be able to write up alternates to the system components.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
How about enabling PInvoke, getting the same access to native WinCE APIs OEMs have? Getting access to filesystem, sideloading, tethering, you name it.
Tom Servo said:
A long time ago, they hired more developers to work on UIX. Seems like they were more occupied porting it to mobile devices than documenting it and prepping it for general release, or something.
I still hope that it'll be made public at some point in time. It seems to be a way better solution than WPF, judging both the phones and the Zune software, even tho the majority of it is still .NET. Maybe a little less flexible, tho. Seems like some teams over at Microsoft went like "**** it, this is overengineered slow crap" and continued to work on MCML, which turned into UIX.
WPF was on the table long before the flashy Zune client ever came to be, which is also mostly .NET. That tells you something.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks a lot! I just saw the app you created looks interessting
Is it in the market yet?
So as you develop such apps i have to ask you:
Do you think the problems you mentioned can be overcome like MS says.
Like in one or two months?
Or would you say that the market will not evolve as much as apple and android?
vangrieg said:
How about enabling PInvoke, getting the same access to native WinCE APIs OEMs have? Getting access to filesystem, sideloading, tethering, you name it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My reason exactly!
vangrieg said:
How about enabling PInvoke, getting the same access to native WinCE APIs OEMs have? Getting access to filesystem, sideloading, tethering, you name it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Microsoft doesnt allow native code for 3rd parties, amd pretty much said they'll keep it that way. I doubt WP7 will support unsafe code for 3rd parties. It's too obvious a workaround...
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App
I start to feel the lack of alternative software on my WP7.
It's probably because the MS restrictions.
I need Opera, I need Google, I need another email client, I need alternative office.
The native ones are nice but at some point they are not so good.
WHEN???!!!
MS listens to their customers DDDD
What restrictions? The only real restriction is that all of the code needs to be Silverlight/XNA.
PG2G said:
What restrictions? The only real restriction is that all of the code needs to be Silverlight/XNA.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Port restrictions? With only port 80 available to developers it limits the ability for anything that isn't HTTP or uses a proxy server.
Sent from my OMNIA7 using Board Express
PG2G said:
What restrictions? The only real restriction is that all of the code needs to be Silverlight/XNA.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Don't make me laugh. It's not possible to make an alternative browser right now for instance.
I don't feel the need for any of those.
Internet Explorer is superb and the office applications are better than any i've used on other platforms.
doministry said:
I start to feel the lack of alternative software on my WP7.
It's probably because the MS restrictions.
I need Opera, I need Google, I need another email client, I need alternative office.
The native ones are nice but at some point they are not so good.
WHEN???!!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Never.
------
doministry said:
Don't make me laugh. It's not possible to make an alternative browser right now for instance.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I read that but don't get it. There are a few alternate browsers available. I have 3 on my DVP
doministry said:
I start to feel the lack of alternative software on my WP7.
It's probably because the MS restrictions.
I need Opera, I need Google, I need another email client, I need alternative office.
The native ones are nice but at some point they are not so good.
WHEN???!!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The whole point of putting out a quality product from the get-go was to eliminate the need for all of this excess garbage. I replaced that crap on Android because the default stuff was garbage. This just sounds like someone who NEEDS to modify their device and prefers that over a perfectly functional experience. This may be the wrong OS.
Also third party browsers can very well created but no one has put forth the time to build a new rendering engine solely for WP7.
ratchetjaw said:
I read that but don't get it. There are a few alternate browsers available. I have 3 on my DVP
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Correction, you have 3 different front-ends on your DVP - they all use the same IE engine behind the scenes to render pages. I'm guessing what the OP wants is a webkit powered browser.
I don't see the problem though - IE does an okay job at rendering basic HTML and is faster than both iOS and Android when it really counts. While both iOS and Android may display the page faster, if the information you're after involves scrolling or resizing you're **** out of luck as they [iOS/Android] seem to do some kind of jit rendering, whereas IE renders the whole page at once.
Not to mention, IE9 is sick on WP7. Kills all competition.
The OP is right.
Even if "IE9 is the best" (and there is no such thing) people love options. I am having a hard time giving up Android fully because there is no real cross platform chat option in WP7. No whatsapp. No Skype. These programs have millions of users. The biggest joke to me is Microsoft does not have an MSN Messenger client on WP7. I used that all the time on my HTC Touch WinMo phone.
The NoDo update is so trivial in my mind. The biggest improvement WP7 can make is to open up the APIs and bring true multitasking.
Then I will be happy....er.
nicksti said:
The biggest improvement WP7 can make is to open up the APIs and bring true multitasking.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
more APIs... word around is MIX 2011 will introduce devs to more WP APIs (hopefully sockets is one of them)
and multi tasking is the mango update coming fall 2011 (septemberish?)
nicksti said:
The biggest joke to me is Microsoft does not have an MSN Messenger client on WP7.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They do - the Messenger by Miyowa is the official app. I still prefer (and use) Li'Messenger though as that gives me Messenger and FB chat in one.
emigrating said:
Correction, you have 3 different front-ends on your DVP - they all use the same IE engine behind the scenes to render pages. I'm guessing what the OP wants is a webkit powered browser.
I don't see the problem though - IE does an okay job at rendering basic HTML and is faster than both iOS and Android when it really counts. While both iOS and Android may display the page faster, if the information you're after involves scrolling or resizing you're **** out of luck as they [iOS/Android] seem to do some kind of jit rendering, whereas IE renders the whole page at once.
Not to mention, IE9 is sick on WP7. Kills all competition.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
oh okay my bad. I don't know all of that detailed stuff lol
Well WP7 has only one browser and few skins. Rendering is identical with all the good and bad consequences.
I am not asking you guys to need other options but it is sick that it's the only platform which still has no options. I like IE very much but I miss Opera Mini server rendering for fast browsing in worse coverage area. And I have few pages IE misses big time. No flash etc.
As for the Office, other platforms have DocsToGo which kills Office with one finger.
And now Softmaker will make Office for Android...
The Word implementation on WP7 is my huge disappointment. Almost featureless app.
It's the first time for 4 years I have to use PC to make basic editing like font style changing or inserting a tablet.
The same with email. The MS email client is so nice but at the same time is a pain. Not able to delete quoted message? Bummer. And very very often I don't see the pictures loaded or even worse, attachements don't show up so Ihave to open my email in the browser.
z33dev33l said:
This just sounds like someone who NEEDS to modify their device and prefers that over a perfectly functional experience. This may be the wrong OS.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No. It sounds like a person who likes to have a choice, especially compared to other platforms. And have had it previously.
WP7 is very far from perfectly functional device. We don't live in a camp where is only one truth for all. Accept the diversity.
emigrating said:
They do - the Messenger by Miyowa is the official app. I still prefer (and use) Li'Messenger though as that gives me Messenger and FB chat in one.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I never heard of Li'Messenger, but I did a search and someone said they took it off of Marketplace a month ago. True?
And isn't Messenger by Miyowa buggy? I am looking at the youtube video of it now. If this is a good client then I will get a new WP7 phone asap!
Does Messenger by Miyowa support group chat, delivered, and read notification, etc like Whatsapp?
Blade0rz said:
Port restrictions? With only port 80 available to developers it limits the ability for anything that isn't HTTP or uses a proxy server.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That isn't a restriction, its an API that hasn't been implemented yet. There is no policy that limits people to Http Request and there is no switch they can flick to quickly enable it, outside of giving people access to the native APIs.
doministry said:
Don't make me laugh. It's not possible to make an alternative browser right now for instance.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Says who? Opera could do it, they just don't want to because they would have to rewrite their codebase from scratch because they can't use any C++.
PG2G said:
Says who? Opera could do it, they just don't want to because they would have to rewrite their codebase from scratch because they can't use any C++.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Really?
Read this:
http://wmpoweruser.com/surfy-alternate-ie-shell-for-wp7-having-a-hard-time-getting-to-market/
This was just about the new broswer UI..
nicksti said:
I never heard of Li'Messenger, but I did a search and someone said they took it off of Marketplace a month ago. True?
And isn't Messenger by Miyowa buggy? I am looking at the youtube video of it now. If this is a good client then I will get a new WP7 phone asap!
Does Messenger by Miyowa support group chat, delivered, and read notification, etc like Whatsapp?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, Li'Messenger was removed a day or two after release. No official confirmation as to why, but I'm guessing because it accessed the Live servers directly thru unsupported APIs. Rumors have it they are bringing out a new version adhering to the Live EULA though.
Messenger by Miyowa had an update just a couple days ago which made it a lot more stable. It's still a very basic app though and I definitely wouldn't suggest you run out and get a new WP7 device because of it.
TBH though, I don't think Messenger in a larger capacity will work properly on WP7 until we get a native client (apparently not going to happen) or the OS allows apps to multitask (H2 '11 - so Dec 31st ). Even with live tile or toast notifications it's too cumbersome to use for anything but quick messages due to load/login times etc.