Develop Bugs

WP7 -IS- Backwards compatible (well almost)

Applications that were made for Windows Mobile 6 are compatible with Windows Phone 7 Series. The interface of the new mobile operating system has been changed though, so the user interface for these applications will have to be changed as well.
"So there is no reason why programs written for Windows Mobile 6 cannot run on the new version of the OS", said Maarten Sonneveld of Microsoft Netherlands to Tweakers.net. "The interface is complete different though, so the applications will have to be changed somewhat before being ready for Windows Phone 7 Series".
It is still unclear how developers can port their user interfaces to the new version of Windows Mobile. Microsoft will only disclose how applications can be developed and distributed at their developer event Mix2010.
Microsoft announced it’s new OS on Monday afternoon at the Mobile World Congress in Barcelona. The OS is primarily aimed at synchronisation and integration with Microsft-services like Windows Live, Bing, Zune and Xbox Live. Aside from those Windows Phone 7 Series can also synchronise with Google-accounts and facebook.
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Source
So in summary, while none of the current applications will run on it, the underlying non-UI APIs will be compatible. So if understand correctly, porting would just a case of redeveloping the UI then recompiling, rather than starting completely from scratch. This acts to filter out apps with no more developer support, and promote a consistent UI.
Doesn't sound too bad to me.

That might explain why TomTom was seen on that screenshot of WP7 running on the HD2 (although, it could be a fake!). TomTom takes control of the screen, so uses no WM interface elements. So, it might be able to run full-screen apps/games without changes.
But, who knows...

elyl said:
That might explain why TomTom was seen on that screenshot of WP7 running on the HD2 (although, it could be a fake!). TomTom takes control of the screen, so uses no WM interface elements. So, it might be able to run full-screen apps/games without changes.
But, who knows...
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I was just thinking the same except if you use the included .net controls, there's no reason that the OS couldn't just reskin them automatically to be at least somewhat more in line with the WP7 styling.

This would be excellent if it's true - and I can't see why it wouldn't be. The UI may be new but why throw away a perfectly good underlying core.
What would also be ideal is if the "multi-tasking" involved an app being set to pause in the background by default, but with a "keep me running" API call available for apps that needed it. I'm sure most apps hog resourses not because they need to but because the developer hasn't really thought about how the rest of the device performs when his app has been left running.

Makes sense, WindowsCE core is still the same

Zaim2 said:
Applications that were made for Windows Mobile 6 are compatible with Windows Phone 7 Series
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Absolutely wrong statement due to incorrect translation. Original: "De interface van Windows Phone 7 Series is totaal anders, waardoor er in elk geval iets aan de applicaties moet gebeuren voordat ze geschikt zijn voor Windows Phone 7 Series"
Even google translates it correctly:
"The interface of Windows 7 Phone Series is different, which in any case something should happen to the applications before they are suitable for Windows 7 Phone Series".
We have some "ms confidential" documentation dated January 2010 that proves that none of the existing apps would be compatible with WinPhone7. And the only programming suite that is available to "generic" application-writers is Silverlight+XNA. Native apps are prohibited. Only OEMs and MO are allowed to create them (and even they have a set of limitations).
We would not have even source code compatibility - as all our C++ apps have to be converted to .NET.

mamaich said:
We have some "ms confidential" documentation dated January 2010...
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What the heck? And you say that only now? What else is in there? Any word about how background tasks are handled? Please give us some more information, or maybe, can you upload that documentation?

freyberry said:
maybe, can you upload that documentation?
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Obviously I cannot. As it would reveal the person who provided it.
Just to prove that such info really exists - see attached screenshots.
I really hope that the community would force MS to change such a dumb idea to limit independent software vendors to create only managed apps. Prohibiting C++ as a developing language, and "hiding" Windows API from programmer would force lots of developers to abandon this platform. The main reason of success of old WinMobile OSes was the ability to recompile "desktop" apps to WinMobile with just a minor set of changes (ANSI->Unicode + some interface changes).
P.S. I don't read PMs.

Obviously I cannot. As it would reveal the person who provided it.
Just to prove that such info really exists - see attached screenshots.
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Well, there's certainly a way to remove that information. But anyway, what about background tasks? Are third party applications allowed to run in the background?

mamaich said:
Obviously I cannot. As it would reveal the person who provided it.
Just to prove that such info really exists - see attached screenshots.
I really hope that the community would force MS to change such a dumb idea to limit independent software vendors to create only managed apps. Prohibiting C++ as a developing language, and "hiding" Windows API from programmer would force lots of developers to abandon this platform. The main reason of success of old WinMobile OSes was the ability to recompile "desktop" apps to WinMobile with just a minor set of changes (ANSI->Unicode + some interface changes).
P.S. I don't read PMs.
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Wow, I can't believe noone has picked up on this

freyberry said:
Are third party applications allowed to run in the background?
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OS itself supports multitasking, see attach. But "Windows Phone OS 7.0 Application Platform" that we'll be forced to use to create apps may force our application to be paused in background. I never programmed Silverlight and XNA and can't tell how multitatsking is made in them.
WinPhone 7 == Zune Phone. Both are based on CE kernel, and they should have lots of common in implementation of multitasking, clipboard, etc.

OS itself supports multitasking, see attach. But "Windows Phone OS 7.0 Application Platform" that we'll be forced to use to create apps may force our application to be paused in background.
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The question is, can we write applications that are not automatically suspended when sent to the background? What are the policies on this?
It says multiple processes can run at the same time, but it does not say whether they get suspended automatically.
Is there any info on this? Maybe in the "Scheduling" section?

I’m not sure this is a big deal. I can see them saying a lot of native C++ apps may have compatibility issues. I could go either way on it with the limited amount of information I have on this. I’ll have a better opinion at and after MIX
Note that this could be old documentation, and it’s pretty annoying you're leaking confidential documentation. Personally, I hope you get into trouble for breaking your contract - they trust you and you're posting it? Yuck.
To be fair, though, every app we’ve written has been managed, and Microsoft hasn't t said P/Invoking is verboten, so what would be the problem?
There’s probably exceptions for games and the like, and the documents you've scanned even say a waiver is available to use the Native APIs. So I don’t know what you're complaining about…
Microsoft's dev teams have been listening to developers - why not get them to chime in and also give them a chance to hear you. Posting confidential Microsoft documents, assuming those are real, is not the way to get them to listen
Best,
-Auri

freyberry said:
The question is, can we write applications that are not automatically suspended when sent to the background? What are the policies on this?
It says multiple processes can run at the same time, but it does not say whether they get suspended automatically.
Is there any info on this? Maybe in the "Scheduling" section?
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Personally, I like Android's approach to this, where Services can run in the background, but UI apps are allowed to be "put to sleep" while other apps run. But then again, we may see a lot of that come into play come MIX and "Answer Time"
Best,
-Auri

Well, I am now both excited and nervous -I think I will just cool my jets until MIX10 and just enjoy the eye candy for now. At worst - if the interface is nice, but the core is crap I am sure some of the boys here at xda will make us an inteface port for 6.5.x that acts and looks like the new hotness with the old compatibility. - lets see MIX

AuriRahimzadeh said:
Note that this could be old documentation, and it’s pretty annoying you're leaking confidential documentation.
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Docs are dated 2010.
I'm not leaking the documentation. I'm sharing the information that anyway would be opened in some days, maybe weeks.
And screens are posted here just as a confirmation of my words. You may think that these pics come from my mind and are made with photoshop - it is your opinion.
I really think that WinPhone 7 would be a failure similar to desktop Vista. Of cause some people would like it, but most would stay on WM 6.x and wait for the next version.
Regarding P/Invoke. As far as I've seen, "unsafe" operations are prohibited in XNA and Silverlight. Otherwise we would be able to call coredll funcs and run native apps (and do everything else that is allowed in our chamber).

mamaich said:
Docs are dated 2010.
I'm not leaking the documentation. I'm sharing the information that anyway would be opened in some days, maybe weeks.
And screens are posted here just as a confirmation of my words. You may think that these pics come from my mind and are made with photoshop - it is your opinion.
I really think that WinPhone 7 would be a failure similar to desktop Vista. Of cause some people would like it, but most would stay on WM 6.x and wait for the next version.
Regarding P/Invoke. As far as I've seen, "unsafe" operations are prohibited in XNA and Silverlight. Otherwise we would be able to call coredll funcs and run native apps (and do everything else that is allowed in our chamber).
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Mamaich any though of a WP7 ce6.0 bsp for all the current cortex A8 devices running on a ce5.2 bsp, will the new kernel support them natively or will extensive bsp/bootloader hacking be required?

P/invoke surely is a limitation of .NET CF, rather than Silverlight/XNA libraries?
I think it would be a bit stupid to remove P/Invoking, because it's just not realistic to rely on .NETCF alone which has soooo much stuff stripped out to minimize size.
Will we be seeing a whole new .NETCF so soon after 3.5? I highly doubt it...Unless MS have been working overtime the past year

Shame, time to stop mobile development altogether if this is true. When we developers are considered as dumb earning pipes for companies who in their arrogant big ways think they have all the wisdom, and app developers only make annoying software that makes their precious leaky OS'es crash, it's time to move on. i would have been talking about IPhone, Android etc, but sadly we must add Microsoft to the list also.
Then there's the $1195,- and airplane tickets we have to pay to get to the Mix2010 in oder to maybe maybe get to be a "partner" with access to limited native API's (probably only reserved for the big companies) and don't even bother talking about giving away 30% of our earnings to a company that last year made how many billions of profits was it ?
Time to start an XDA OS based on REAL Linux maybe ? NVidia have a nice dev-board available for $400,- with Tegra on it. That's what I call developer friendly.
Cheers !

Regardless of how this will play out, I'm pretty sure of two things:
1. Closing down the OS may be beneficial for the majority of users by bringing stability, ease of use, UI consistency, etc. Even though I don't like it.
2. Because the OS itself is multitasking, any and all restrictions may be hacked around, and a "jailbreak" will be possible.
Depending on how this whole thing will be implemented, jailbreaking and using "illegal" apps may be a major PITA (think iPhone 3GS/tethered jailbreak) or as easy as a few registry tweaks/installing additional certs/whatever. If Apple didn't chase JB with every update it would be a rather good platform for both mainstream "ordinary" users and those who want rather unusual things from their phones.
We'll have to wait and see how it evolves really to make a final judgment.

with all the control of wm7, Is it time to switch to a more open platform android?

wm7 = no native API call, stop running of background program and many other controls
let say good bye appl like WKTASK, CPUMonitorMini and many others

we have to wait for official comments next month. however why switch to Android? The native API of WM 6.5.x will not expire on our devices. With it we can do whatever we want.

...

I can't see me now buying a wm7 device in the future and I defenitly switch to android if wm isn't supporting multitasking anymore.
The fact alone that wm7 won't be backward compatible let's me thing about switching.
Thats all really sad because my omnia 2 is actually my first smartphone and I'm very pleased with it, basically because it uses a desktop like os.

drandazzo said:
will the current WM6/6.5 applications work on WM7.. eg. TomTom?
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No. No piece of WM6 software will work on WP7. Some pieces may be easier for the developers to convert to WP7 than others, but all will require code-level conversion and recompilation of some sort.

Personally I hope 6.5 apps DON'T work on WP7, it'll make developers lazy and not bother re-writing their apps for WP7.
We need a clean break and that means no backwards compatibility. I want all my WP7 apps to have the jazzy new UI, full touch control and full integration with the hubs.
I don't mind paying the devs some more cash for a WP7 version of their apps, and I'm sure they won't mind taking that money off me!

Jim Coleman said:
Personally I hope 6.5 apps DON'T work on WP7, it'll make developers lazy and not bother re-writing their apps for WP7.
We need a clean break and that means no backwards compatibility. I want all my WP7 apps to have the jazzy new UI, full touch control and full integration with the hubs.
I don't mind paying the devs some more cash for a WP7 version of their apps, and I'm sure they won't mind taking that money off me!
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yeah when wp7 comes out thats when ill start buying my apps

Jim Coleman said:
Personally I hope 6.5 apps DON'T work on WP7, it'll make developers lazy and not bother re-writing their apps for WP7.
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The majority of the apps I use right now have already a kool looking ui (a lot of freeware is skinable anyway) and are fingerfriendly. And this includes stuff that is no longer in development and won't get updated.
If a developer refuses to update its app than there is a opportunity for someone else the be successful with a better product.
So why can't ms just let the market decide who got the best ui or functionality?
And for hubs, I don't really care for the new ui and would continue to use mobile shell (if still possible).

Shasarak said:
No. No piece of WM6 software will work on WP7. Some pieces may be easier for the developers to convert to WP7 than others, but all will require code-level conversion and recompilation of some sort.
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I dont see why tomtom or things like igo wouldnt work.
Microsoft said that backward compatiblilty will be difficult because of making it fit in with the OS, but if its full screen it doesnt need to fit in with any part of the os.

TheGoD said:
I ... would continue to use mobile shell (if still possible).
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No it won't be possible.

loomx said:
I dont see why tomtom or things like igo wouldnt work.
Microsoft said that backward compatiblilty will be difficult because of making it fit in with the OS, but if its full screen it doesnt need to fit in with any part of the os.
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Ah but you're missing the point. Tomtom, if written correctly within the new Silverlight framework doodad, will be largely subsumed into the Hubs interface - it'll provide new menu options in People, for instance, to navigate to their home or work address. In Calendar it'll do the same for the location of an event. Etc. Perhaps it'll calculate the route in background and then add it to a route list somewhere else on the phone, who knows. But it'll only go full screen with the 3D view etc when you're actually navigating. The rest of the UI will be done via the hubs.

Jim Coleman said:
Ah but you're missing the point. Tomtom, if written correctly within the new Silverlight framework doodad, will be largely subsumed into the Hubs interface - it'll provide new menu options in People, for instance, to navigate to their home or work address. In Calendar it'll do the same for the location of an event. Etc. Perhaps it'll calculate the route in background and then add it to a route list somewhere else on the phone, who knows. But it'll only go full screen with the 3D view etc when you're actually navigating. The rest of the UI will be done via the hubs.
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Jim doesn't that sound ****ing awesome!?

in my opinion
winmo will be the best or the last
they have only one chance to make it the best mobile os or it will failed completly and all of us will move to android\iphone os

matckal said:
winmo will be the best or the last
they have only one chance to make it the best mobile os or it will failed completly and all of us will move to android\iphone os
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Depends on what WP7 really will be in the end, I'll switch to it, or just keep my old one. No intentions to switch to anything else, so please don't make such weird assumptions! WM 6.5.x will still be supported for a while by MS, and will be even longer on this board, so I see no reason to jump at the next opportunity because it's now suddenly hip or what?

Im done with Wm for Now...
Im done had all can take my HD2 is up for sale just picked up my Nexus one and its overclocked to 1.3ghz So fast microsoft im done....

Android is the new WinMo.
Except crappier. The slowdowns on the Qualcomm 72** series on the Android is more profound than on Win Mo. Thats how it felt to me.

I've messed around with android and it just doesn't seem that appealing to me honestly. Even though they may be locking down the WP7 UI. I love the integration it's going to have with Xbox Live and Zune. Not to mention the menu systems look very slick to me. I'll be sticking with Microsoft and I guess we will just have to wait for a crack to install our own apps if that's how it's going to go down.

after the recent Apple vs. HTC patent issues I would no longer talk so easy about bright future of Android. We never know what happens.

RAMMANN said:
after the recent Apple vs. HTC patent issues I would no longer talk so easy about bright future of Android. We never know what happens.
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I was going to say the same thing.
Android might have to get a complete faceleft and lose A LOT of functionality.
**** apple...

RAMMANN said:
after the recent Apple vs. HTC patent issues I would no longer talk so easy about bright future of Android. We never know what happens.
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Ah, the future of Android has never been clear really. Not because the OS is bad or anything, but simply because Google doesn't really need it. That is, it's nice to have but it's not a life or death situation for them in this business. It's one of examples of their "let's throw all kinds of cool **** around and see later where it sticks" strategy. They pursue things that go easily and just as well abandon things that aren't going smooth - they just don't know where the money will come from, and don't mind that. Heck they didn't even know how to make money from their search business until they stole the context ad idea after unsuccessful attempts to buy it. But make no mistake - they are in business for the money. It doesn't mean they'll necessarily dump it, but it is an unclear and intransparent game.
So if I were an OEM I'd think a dozen times before really betting on Android, with or without the lawsuit. It's fine to use the opportunities it provides in the short run, but long term commitments? Nah.

It's official: Silverlight, XNA, 'clean break'

"For us, the cost of going from good to great is a clean break from the past. To enable the fantastic user experiences you’ve seen in the Windows Phone 7 Series demos so far we’ve had to break from the past. To deliver what developers expect in the developer platform we’ve had to change how phone apps were written. One result of this is previous Windows mobile applications will not run on Windows Phone 7 Series."
http://blogs.msdn.com/ckindel/archi...e-new-windows-phone-developer-experience.aspx
He also specifically mentions developers in it for learning and fun. I have to think they'll embrace free apps and not charge a dev $99 to submit an app if it's going to be free.
Another softie's blog post on the topic... http://www.artificialignorance.net/...ne-7-series-developers-developers-developers/

Yupe, and all WM5.x, WM6.x applications will NOT run on WP7:
To enable the fantastic user experiences you’ve seen in the Windows Phone 7 Series demos so far we’ve had to break from the past. To deliver what developers expect in the developer platform we’ve had to change how phone apps were written. One result of this is previous Windows mobile applications will not run on Windows Phone 7 Series.
Well, this is just a NEW mobile OS, it is not an upgrade / update of current WM, this kinda expected.

From the article:
ckindle article said:
We took the feedback we gathered from developers, looked at the full potential of Windows Phone 7 Series and landed on 3 basic goals for the platform we’re delivering;
1. Enable end users to be able to personalize their phone experience through a large library of innovative, compelling, games and applications.
2. Enable developers to profit.
3. Advance the “3 screen plus cloud” vision
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Definitely WP7 is customizable, this is good, but how far the customization will be? For sure, no more Sense UI, TouchFlo kind of customization, nor SpB Mobile Shell.
I hope a "launcher" like still possible? Microsoft mentioned that we can put app as a tile in the start screen. I am wondering if that app would be some kind of app launcher ... icons grid
ckindle article said:
When we talk with developers we hear them talk about three different “currencies”: making money, learning, and recognition. Some developers are in it for the money. They are either literally being paid to write code or they are writing code with the hope it will generate coin.
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This could mean professional mobile developer who earn and make money for living developing mobile applications.
Give them free tools! free submission charge! That would certainly be more attractive.
ckindle article said:
Other developers tell us they are interested in advancing their knowledge – love of the game. They love learning about computers, programming, games, social connections, etc… So they build software to learn. They profit by being smarter.
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Does this mean "hobbyist" aka XDA dev?
ckindle article said:
Other developers are clearly motivated by pride. Maybe there’s a bit of money and learning involved, but to these developers being noticed or recognized as doing wickedly epic sh*t is top of the list for how they measure profit.
We think all three “currencies” are valid and important and we are explicitly trying to build the platform and developer experience to support “profit” in each.
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Or this?

From what I'm reading MS is actually listening to all of us and I think that is a damn good thing.

gogol said:
Definitely WP7 is customizable, this is good, but how far the customization will be? For sure, no more Sense UI, TouchFlo kind of customization, nor SpB Mobile Shell.
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As far as I know it OEMs are not allowed to add their own UI extension, but I didn't hear it that you can't just add a 3rd party app like Morbid Shell. It's only an app, and you can install apps, can't you!?

RAMMANN said:
As far as I know it OEMs are not allowed to add their own UI extension, but I didn't hear it that you can't just add a 3rd party app like Morbid Shell. It's only an app, and you can install apps, can't you!?
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It's much more than an app.
@gogol Tiles can also be shortcuts. But I doubt that one tile can link to multiple apps.

seed_al said:
It's much more than an app.
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I know what Morbid Shell is. But by definition it's an app. You download it from Marketplace or somewhere and install the cab. Sense is not a cab but part of the ROM and you can say part of the OS. That's the difference as I see it.

Catalyst
WP7 is the catalyst that is getting me back into school to learn code. I have a degree in electrical engineering, but with the possibilities unfolding in the mobile OS world today, I want to be apart of that. The Star Trek dream has begun.

Don't expect any Haret.exe this time around.
This has turned into the same crap Apple did, a retarded OS for retards that have no clue in anything, but like the "oh so cool" flashy menus.

I think in regards to haret we are forgetting one very important thing as we compare this to iphone
jailbreak does broaden the possibilities on the iphone so I'm not so sure this is the total end of haret

what if the tiles based home screen is just a today plugin like Sense is, wouldn't we be able to disable it? if so, maybe the devs here @ xda can come with a kickass UI xperience. i've got some great and unique ideas... too bad i'm not a codewarrior.

hyellow said:
what if the tiles based home screen is just a today plugin like Sense is, wouldn't we be able to disable it? if so, maybe the devs here @ xda can come with a kickass UI xperience. i've got some great and unique ideas... too bad i'm not a codewarrior.
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I'm pretty sure that the start screen on WP7 is definitely not a plug-in of any kind. It's hardcoded to the system and as far as we have been told no one is allowed to write different UI's on top of it. Not to say that it won't be possible. It just won't be carriers and OEM's doing it.

So basically... this means we probably won't be seeing apps like Opera Mobile (or any custom web browsing rendering engine), and things like that, that are really required to be written in native code for speed.

~Johnny said:
So basically... this means we probably won't be seeing apps like Opera Mobile (or any custom web browsing rendering engine), and things like that, that are really required to be written in native code for speed.
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I don't believe so. These are still apps. MS is creating a single baseline that all developers will be able to use so the platform is uniform and easier to develop for. This will create a stable Windows Mobile experience and hopefully make it more enjoyable for noobs and vets alike without providers and manufacturers messing it up. Opera and Opera Mini are simply applications so they should be able to work once developed for the new UI and OS.

Opera and Opera Mini are simply applications so they should be able to work once developed for the new UI and OS.
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It's not that simple.

Of course
seed_al said:
It's not that simple.
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seed_al said:
It's not that simple.
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Please explain.

Re browsers, you just won't ever get decent performance with managed code, so you need native. Even if you could, porting the whole thing to a new language would just be too expensive. Most people just seriously underestimate how complex browser engines are these days.
Opera Mini, on the other hand, is of course perfectly possible, it's not a browser really.

And I have no problem at all with Opera Mini, except Flash ... but for that, I use SkyFire or YouTube app.
Opera Mini would be my top app to port to WP7 ... because I doubt the new IE is good to use.
vangrieg said:
Re browsers, you just won't ever get decent performance with managed code, so you need native. Even if you could, porting the whole thing to a new language would just be too expensive. Most people just seriously underestimate how complex browser engines are these days.
Opera Mini, on the other hand, is of course perfectly possible, it's not a browser really.
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vangrieg said:
Re browsers, you just won't ever get decent performance with managed code, so you need native. Even if you could, porting the whole thing to a new language would just be too expensive. Most people just seriously underestimate how complex browser engines are these days.
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Yep, and Opera have their own engine. They still have not even released their Android port. Opera Mobile on WP7 is not going to happen anytime soon.
Same for lots of other things that heavily rely on native code or are hard to port over.
Sorry, guys. It's just not that simple.

no extra browsers?

looks like i was wrong & MS is being a A$$
there arent letting browser devs use native code at the moment...this is wack, IE better be the bomb or else this is gonna suck
From Mozilla
"While we think Windows Phone 7 looks interesting and has the potential to do well in the market, Microsoft has unfortunately decided to close off development to native applications. Because of this, we won’t be able to provide Firefox for Windows Phone 7 at this time. Given that Microsoft is staking their future in mobile on Windows Mobile 7 (not 6.5) and because we don’t know if or when Microsoft will release a native development kit, we are putting our Windows Mobile development on hold"
http://wmpoweruser.com/?p=14599

No native code = no alternative browers. At least not anytime soon.
That was clear all along.
You're not going to see any "big" applications on WP7S. Fart apps and twitter clients are easy to do, however...

A twitter client is already on board isn't it?
Probably they'll also add a fart app to the final retail version. so the only thing you could do is add customized fart sounds!
I really wish it was different but to be honest I don't see any potential for interesting apps on WP7.

seems counter-productive to not release their native client to bigger development studios as yet. They certainly want a library of applications for launch, it's a bit strange they the silverlight/xna libraries 1st, when those would typically be shorter to right than something like a Firefox, Opera, etc.

gom99 said:
seems counter-productive to not release their native client to bigger development studios as yet. They certainly want a library of applications for launch, it's a bit strange they the silverlight/xna libraries 1st, when those would typically be shorter to right than something like a Firefox, Opera, etc.
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yeah but firefox did take awhile to produce nothing on Wm6 with access to native code so maybe MS doesnt trust them with native code cuz those fennec browser cause the phone to crash sometimes..im holding out hope that they give opera permission

gom99 said:
seems counter-productive to not release their native client to bigger development studios as yet. They certainly want a library of applications for launch, it's a bit strange they the silverlight/xna libraries 1st, when those would typically be shorter to right than something like a Firefox, Opera, etc.
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.NET apps are much quicker to develop than native stuff. That's why they focus on .NET. They will eventually have quite a big app library by the end of the year, but most of it will be "fart apps".
Will there ever be an NDK? Who knows...

C:Sharp! said:
No native code = no alternative browers. At least not anytime soon.
That was clear all along.
You're not going to see any "big" applications on WP7S. Fart apps and twitter clients are easy to do, however...
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LOL..I hate those fart apps...or fart jokes for that matter.
The latest IE that I have on the Prime-II ROM is very good at rendering and formatting the columns for readibility, esp when used in mobile mode. Panning large pages is also very smooth and does not show any blank/white "still loading" when moving rapidly left or right or top or down. I actually stopped using opera because it suck memory and still shows white spaces when panning pages.

I'm using the word "fart apps" as an explanation for a certain kind of apps. I don't mean that they're all useless, but they're the kind of apps that are easy to develop in .NET and will likely form the majority of apps that we'll see in the WP7S marketplace by the end of the year.
(To be honest, I'm also going to make some . Useful ones, however.)

C:Sharp! said:
.NET apps are much quicker to develop than native stuff.
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But .NET in Windows -- at least from my understanding -- has access to native/lower-level APIs.
See: PowerShell, which is unashamedly built directly on top of .NET, and yet is a viable replacement to the command prompt due to the fact it can do pretty much anything.

Spike15 said:
But .NET in Windows -- at least from my understanding -- has access to native/lower-level APIs.
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Yes, that's correct. You can do that via P/Invoke.
You could also do that on Windows Mobile.
But not on Windows Phone 7, this feature is officially gone.

C:Sharp! said:
But not on Windows Phone 7, this feature is officially gone.
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I had guessed.
I was just pointing out that .NET on Windows Mobile and Windows is more powerful than it's going to be on Windows Phone.

C:Sharp! said:
I'm using the word "fart apps" as an explanation for a certain kind of apps. I don't mean that they're all useless, but they're the kind of apps that are easy to develop in .NET and will likely form the majority of apps that we'll see in the WP7S marketplace by the end of the year.
(To be honest, I'm also going to make some . Useful ones, however.)
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make some musical ones, to live up to your name!

Hehe
But actually, the name is inspired by the programming language.

No more. Now you will be a music apps developer for WP7!

Maybe. But they have to be programmed in C# nevertheless
C# is the language that's used for .NET, thus all development for WP7 will be done in C#, in case you didn't know.

C:Sharp! said:
Maybe. But they have to be programmed in C# nevertheless
C# is the language that's used for .NET, thus all development for WP7 will be done in C#, in case you didn't know.
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Nope. I did not know. Thanks for the info. Now I know just a bit more about the WP7 platform

havox22 said:
looks like i was wrong & MS is being a A$$
there arent letting browser devs use native code at the moment...this is wack, IE better be the bomb or else this is gonna suck
From Mozilla
"While we think Windows Phone 7 looks interesting and has the potential to do well in the market, Microsoft has unfortunately decided to close off development to native applications. Because of this, we won’t be able to provide Firefox for Windows Phone 7 at this time. Given that Microsoft is staking their future in mobile on Windows Mobile 7 (not 6.5) and because we don’t know if or when Microsoft will release a native development kit, we are putting our Windows Mobile development on hold"
http://wmpoweruser.com/?p=14599
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I am sure .net framework in wp7s can access all hardware,so why Mozilla need native api access? just performance issues...but Mozilla do a sucked Firefox on WM6.X
Finally, I think .net framework good enough to develop great browser and developer can get benefit by GUI Acceleration
Managed is slow? May be but not critical
http://www.grimes.demon.co.uk/dotnet/man_unman.htm

It's not just about performance. A browser is a huge complex app with millions of lines of code. You can't just sit down and rewrite it in a different language when your engine is done in C++ for all platforms. That's a massive endeavor that will cost millions of dollars. In addition to that, there's no access to APIs necessary to do it. You can't open a socket and work with it directly in WP7's Silverlight.

vangrieg said:
It's not just about performance. A browser is a huge complex app with millions of lines of code. You can't just sit down and rewrite it in a different language when your engine is done in C++ for all platforms. That's a massive endeavor that will cost millions of dollars. In addition to that, there's no access to APIs necessary to do it. You can't open a socket and work with it directly in WP7's Silverlight.
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So,this is not .net or Wp7 problem
All about the money

Everything in business is about money, so what? Restricting development to Silverlight makes developing alternative browsers for WP7 impossible because of a huge investment barrier.

Why is it taking so long for WP7 to be fully "cracked" open?

I am not talking about sideloading. Android and iOS are hacked within weeks if not days of being released. WP7 has been out for a while and it seems there hasn't been any major progress in this front.
Anyone know why this is? Has MS made WP7 THAT secure that even xda can't break into it?

digger1985 said:
I am not talking about sideloading. Android and iOS are hacked within weeks if not days of being released. WP7 has been out for a while and it seems there hasn't been any major progress in this front.
Anyone know why this is? Has MS made WP7 THAT secure that even xda can't break into it?
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If you're not talking about sideloading, what are you talking about? The primary modes of "hacking" iOS and Android involve sideloading homebrew apps that do different stuff, which is already happening on WP7.

I was mostly talking about system modifications. Where are utilities like quick toggles for the settings and such? Or for example having folders in the app list. These were added pretty quickly when iOS was jailbroken I believe.

digger1985 said:
I was mostly talking about system modifications. Where are utilities like quick toggles for the settings and such? Or for example having folders in the app list. These were added pretty quickly when iOS was jailbroken I believe.
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Awaiting the proper APIs

Hmm... I was under the impression that the APIs were there but just not available to the devs. Cracking open WP7 was meant to solve this right?

digger1985 said:
Hmm... I was under the impression that the APIs were there but just not available to the devs. Cracking open WP7 was meant to solve this right?
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Not really. Devs have no access to native APIs and the access they have managed to gain is still sandboxed to restrict what they can do with the phone.
You could still crack open WP7 without access to native APIs, but it makes it more unlikely that anybody will. When devs have access to native APIs, there is more of a chance that somebody has overlooked a method of gaining access to the phone's features.
I'm not 100%, but I'm pretty sure iPhone did not have a native API available when it was jailbroken. Android is mostly open source, so it's pretty much already jailbroken

Just to mention, i was today able to get full root control of running processes on the current phone (phone sided code). And some api's that are hidden by microsoft can easily be reloaded with "LoadLibrary" and "GetProcAddress" like enumerate running processes. (Look under wp7>hacking>dllimport).

its coming...very soon

Why is it taking so long for WP7 to be fully "cracked" open?
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Microsoft developers are not amatuers, and TBQH I hope it never is. They need to shut down homebrew IMO, or certainly not facilitate it. All it does it lead to issues and I don't think Microsoft wants the solution to issues to be "go to XDA" or "flash CustomROM_01."
Android is a mess because of all that ****.

How long it took for the first iPhone JB?

fiinix said:
Just to mention, i was today able to get full root control of running processes on the current phone (phone sided code). And some api's that are hidden by microsoft can easily be reloaded with "LoadLibrary" and "GetProcAddress" like enumerate running processes. (Look under wp7>hacking>dllimport).
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Wait-Are you saying you have the ability to run and exit processes from another application on the device?
Edit: Never mind, found your thread here. Just gave me an idea, nice work!
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1006331