Develop Bugs

[Q] CM 7.0.3 Random Reboots Even After Clean Install

I've racked my brain and searched the forums so I'm hoping someone has some insight here. Recently my phone has become unstable...I can't do too much in a single sitting without it rebooting. I've been on CM7 for a while now and had been trying the nightlies so I thought it was maybe that or just left over garbage from the upgrades so I decided to do a clean CM7 install yesterday (factory wipe). After I got through the setup and started to download gmail (1st non-stock app) from the market my inc rebooted. I flashed Chad's latest kernel thinking maybe it was a kernel issue...still reboots.
I then decided maybe it was the battery because at times I will get into a couple of reboots back to back and then the phone turns off and vibrates three or four times. But when I get the phone booted and check the battery temp it is maybe 98F which doesn't seem to be above average based on my forum readings. I then swapped batteries with my wife (unrooted inc) and we both launched plants vs. zombies and started playing. After maybe 10 min, I got my first reboot and then another a few minutes later so I just turned the phone off...she kept playing.
Now of course I have to point out my wife works for Verizon Wireless so I'm getting extra grief for rooting my phone and she is saying that is the cause since she never has reboots. Not that I want to prove my wife wrong, I really just want a phone I can do more than make phone calls on, but someone please tell me she isn't right. My reboots only seem to happen when I've had the screen on for a while...3 hour conference calls have no issues. Can you give me suggestions of things to try to help narrow down the issue? Thanks in advance!
Phone Info:
Baseband:2.15.00.07.28
Kernel: 2.6.37.6-incredikernel-gb-04192001
Mod Version: CyanogenMod-7.0.3-Inc
Build: GRI40

I get similar problems but it happens when i am watching youtube videos or playing games, or sometimes out of nowhere. Can't figure out and it is really annoying.

Copy sd to pc, reformat sd fat32, copy stuff back to sd. Helped a friend with hers.
Sent from my ADR6300 using XDA Premium App

Thanks I'll give that a try. I did try running the phone without a card at one point and it didn't help any.

AOSP Roms, like CM, interact with the sd on boot. Don't expect aosp roms to boot without sd.....
Sent from my ADR6300 using XDA Premium App

OK, performed the the SD format last night and just got around to running apps today. Again, I tried Plants vs Zombies and after about 20 mins the phone rebooted...I had been an hour long conference call before that. The phone rebooted and got to the startup screen and then rebooted again but at least this time it finished booting which is an improvement over before. Also, thanks for the tip about AOSP roms not booting without an SD card.
I did notice yesterday when it rebooted on me, after a couple of bootloops the screen then went black and the phone vibrated 5 times. I was only on a short phone call yesterday while in my car for 10 min.
On a side note, I haven't partitioned my SD card with an app partition but I was wondering if it is necessary for moving apps to the SD? I have moved several apps to SD so I want to make sure that isn't causing an issue either.

had the same problem myself, did a clean install which didn't help, finally reinstalled 7.0, all working fine now
Sent from my ADR6300 using XDA App

Snappyts said:
had the same problem myself, did a clean install which didn't help, finally reinstalled 7.0, all working fine now
Sent from my ADR6300 using XDA App
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Click to collapse
Thanks Snappy...I never really thought about reverting. I've give it a try later today and report back.

Alright, so last night I performed a factory wipe and installed CM 7.0. Everything went fine but as soon as the ROM loaded and I opened the market it rebooted on me. This morning I just performed another factory wipe and installed MIUI thinking maybe it might be a ROM issue, but I got the same results. As soon as I opened the market to start installing stuff it rebooted on me...I tried this twice and reboot each time the market opened. I guess next I'll try a sense rom, Skyraider maybe...I'll post back with the results.

Warranty replacement
I was having pretty much the same issue. I tried everything from countless forums for the last month and a half. Finally had to cave and get a warranty replacement. - just pointing out that it might be a hardware issue (my device ran hot w/o sd and stock OS)

If the problem is following you on multiple roms it sounds like its probably a hardware issue.
Sent from my ADR6300 using XDA App

I've bounced around between various forums/posts and I think I have to agree it is probably a hardware issue. Being that I'm out of warranty, my only alternative is to upgrade or buy another Inc. Given the small pricing difference, buying another Inc versus upgrading, the logical choice seems to upgrade.
So my upgrade choices that are currently available are Inc 2, Thunderbolt, or Revolution. Another option is wait for the Bionic to come out in a few months. Any suggestions? I'm personally leaning towards the Thunderbolt...
Thanks again everyone for your help.

Well if you need to update now, I'd say the thunderbolt is probably your best choice. If you can wait, the bionic, if unlocked, looks like quite a phone, but IMHO the galaxy s2 is the phone to beat.
Have you tried getting a replacement? I suppose if you got your phone when it first came out the one year warranty might be up but it never hurts to try.
Sent from my ADR6300 using XDA App

k_nivesout said:
Well if you need to update now, I'd say the thunderbolt is probably your best choice. If you can wait, the bionic, if unlocked, looks like quite a phone, but IMHO the galaxy s2 is the phone to beat.
Have you tried getting a replacement? I suppose if you got your phone when it first came out the one year warranty might be up but it never hurts to try.
Sent from my ADR6300 using XDA App
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Click to collapse
I haven't tried, but we did get the phone when they first came out last year so we are a couple of months past the one year warranty. My wife looked it up though and since we are available for an upgrade at this point the likely scenario is VZW pushing me to a new device rather than replacing my dying one.
I agree, the Galaxy S2 does look nice but since my wife works for VZW I'm kind of stuck with them.
I'm tempted to limp along until the Bionic comes out to see what it has to offer. As long as I can make calls I'll be ok...I guess Plants vs. Zombies will have to wait.

The GS2 is coming to Verizon. Not exactly sure when, there was a rumor that it'll be next month but I don't know how for sure that is.
Sent from my ADR6300 using XDA App

k_nivesout said:
The GS2 is coming to Verizon. Not exactly sure when, there was a rumor that it'll be next month but I don't know how for sure that is.
Sent from my ADR6300 using XDA App
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Click to collapse
I had to go refresh my memory on the exact GS2 specs, then I had to wipe the drool from my mouth. I haven't heard of Verizon getting it within the next couple of months so now I'm even more bummed.
I guess it will kind of depend on how long my phone holds out. The random reboots and shutdowns can be annoying and have become all too frequent if I do anything more than make a phone call...sometimes even then it shuts down.

Sleep of death?

Anyone having issues with the phone going to sleep and not waking up? Happened last night and I had to remove the battery
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk

I've had this twice now. Both times after using Spotify, probably purely coincidence though. Battery pull and everything is OK.

Evostance said:
Anyone having issues with the phone going to sleep and not waking up? Happened last night and I had to remove the battery
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk
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Click to collapse
Most likely something that you have installed on your phone isnt liking ICS. Hard to narrow down if you have alot of apps installed.
I have had mine for 6 days now and not had a single Sleep of Death and I havent seen too many comments about it so I dont think its a problem with ICS directly.
Mark.

mskip said:
Most likely something that you have installed on your phone isnt liking ICS. Hard to narrow down if you have alot of apps installed.
I have had mine for 6 days now and not had a single Sleep of Death and I havent seen too many comments about it so I dont think its a problem with ICS directly.
Mark.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Good point.
Wonder what app it is

Happened to me too! My phone was ultra hot too! I had charged it over night with my computer. can anyone who had this issue confirm it was through computer charging?
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using xda premium

SweetPAIN225 said:
Happened to me too! My phone was ultra hot too! I had charged it over night with my computer. can anyone who had this issue confirm it was through computer charging?
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using xda premium
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Click to collapse
Nah was via wall power.
Wonder if its SetCPU stalling my phone as ive got it to drop the CPU speed right down when screen is off

Thanks! I made a wrong assumption!
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using xda premium

Evostance said:
Nah was via wall power.
Wonder if its SetCPU stalling my phone as ive got it to drop the CPU speed right down when screen is off
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Jeez man you think you might wanna test that out before you post that there's an issue with your phone?
Sent from my Nexus S using XDA App

matt2053 said:
Jeez man you think you might wanna test that out before you post that there's an issue with your phone?
Sent from my Nexus S using XDA App
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Click to collapse
Exactly, it is way way too likely that turning your CPU down will result in 'Sleep of death'

matt2053 said:
Jeez man you think you might wanna test that out before you post that there's an issue with your phone?
Sent from my Nexus S using XDA App
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Click to collapse
Well its still worth noting. SetCPU never did this on my DHD

I had exactly the same thing last night, I even made my own thread
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1360847&page=2
I even wrote a simple app for logging the battery temperature and time, so I'll leave it on next night and I'll see what happens. Because I'm pretty sure my phone switched off due to overheating, as it was really,really hot in the morning, after I switched it on the battery was at 46C.

I'm afraid I can confirm that I have experienced the same "sleep of death" problem twice now. I can't remember what I was doing the first time, but the second time I was only browsing and I know I didn't have any apps installed because I had previously reset my phone. I've only had the phone for two days now and if it does it again I might have to send it back.
I expected a glitch or two, but with the volume bug and other annoying things like the lack of flash and poor camera quality, I'm beginning to regret my purchase. Although I love the ice cream sandwich experience, I'm now thinking of getting the Galaxy Note instead, and waiting for ICS to arrive on that next year. At least then I will be able to watch iPlayer in the meantime.

Mines done it about 4 times. Pre installed Movie maker seems to induce it.

Rawkode said:
I've had this twice now. Both times after using Spotify, probably purely coincidence though. Battery pull and everything is OK.
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Had a sleep of death for the first time yesterday - the only "different" thing I did during the day was use spotify so there maybe something in that!

Same again last night, woke up this morning and phone was on but wouldn't wake. Notification light was on solid. Was plugged in at wall all night, didn't seem too warm when I held it.
Time to start debugging I guess

I've had this issue twice too.
I do not have spotify installed, and the phone was NOT hot at all. Not even warm!
I was just in gmail, sent a mail, then pressed the home button, and black.... gone.
Had to pull battery.
Thinking of having phone replaced by Handtec. I know this is probably a software glitch, but the volume bug, and the fact my unit was one that handtec had "tested" etc, I might just ask for a brand new one from the new flashed batch due next week.

Wtf! Just how wide spread is this??? Seems like too many people are having this issue.
Phone hasn't even arrived yet and I'm already starting to question my purchase.

1 more bug and im cancelling my order !

Well, it's the first device with ICS so I expect there will be a few bugs in the future which will need to be fixed. That's the reason why I'll go for the Nexus ... it's a nice piece of hardware but even more important is that it will be the device which gets the fixes first.

Did anyone check to see if you've had an OTA for the volume ghost fix and this problem has spawned instead? Seems like a fairly new problem if you have followed the forum.
Sent from my X10i using xda premium

GNex rebooting randomly

don't know if this is happening to you guys but i've had this phone for a week and a couple of times out of nowhere it just reboots, is not often and i definitively don't play with it much, like right now it was just sitting there at the desk and boom, it rebooted, that's like the second or third time in a week, anybody else experiencing this issue?
i'll be pissed if i have to replace it as i just put an invisible shield on that shinny screen.

It hapend to me to I waS watching a video in flash ...its his first day with me)
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk

I had the same issue while using juice defender which I originally bought for my s2. It seems to bug the nexus really bad at the moment.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using XDA App

Mine has done this twice now I think. At least the reboot is pretty quick, but not great even though.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using XDA App

Same here. Returned the 1st phone due to the random reboots and now the new one is starting to reboot randomly too. The phone reboots at least 4-5 times daily.

I've had this happen to me about once a day.
I noticed something unusual while travelling for the holidays: I did not experience a single reboot or hard freeze while having a Rogers SIM card in my phone while in Canada for a week.
Within 15 minutes of returning to the US and inserting my T-Mobile SIM card I had another hard freeze.
This seems pretty systematic, over 8 days with a T-Mobile SIM card I've had about one hard freeze per 24 hours. Over 7 days with a Rogers SIM card, not a single freeze or reboot.

Happens to mine as well every now and then. Today just after I had started it and it was lying on my desk.

Snakehn said:
don't know if this is happening to you guys but i've had this phone for a week and a couple of times out of nowhere it just reboots, is not often and i definitively don't play with it much, like right now it was just sitting there at the desk and boom, it rebooted, that's like the second or third time in a week, anybody else experiencing this issue?
i'll be pissed if i have to replace it as i just put an invisible shield on that shinny screen.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I also experienced this when I was on stock rom (4.0.1) but it hasn't happened since I started flashing custom roms 3 weeks ago. on 4.0.3 now and not a single random reboot.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using xda premium

done it a couple more times after my last post, seriously thinking about taking it back to verizon, or should i wait for 4.0.3?

Snakehn said:
done it a couple more times after my last post, seriously thinking about taking it back to verizon, or should i wait for 4.0.3?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sounds defective man. I wouldn't sit around waiting for 4.0.3 expecting it to help you out. Just get a replacement if its not a huge inconvenience (although random reboots are a big inconvenience ).

Well i went ahead and swapped it out, fingers crossed for no more issues.
the only thing i hate is that i'll have to install another InvisibleShield

Snakehn said:
done it a couple more times after my last post, seriously thinking about taking it back to verizon, or should i wait for 4.0.3?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I would switch it out for another one.

Mine does it only when my battery gets to a certain percentage, usually when it's low. Also notice it when I use wifi Tether app, when I close the program a few seconds later it reboots.

I dont have one myself but have been flashing and re-flashing on my NS4G since the first SDK port of ICS. My own experience and observation has been as follows: Once the official sources were release and the initial source builds began coming out, there was a problem with random reboots and as things were tweaked and adjusted they became less frequent then more frequent again and eventually in the right ROM/kernel combinations have almost entirely ceased. Its most likely a software glitch and until an update or you flash something custom it isnt likely to go away no matter how many times you exchange it....just my thoughts and opinion on it.

Happens to occasionally too... starting to wonder if its not all the phones or maybe just all androids in general

happens to mine when using gallery..but the phone doesnt reboot, it just powers off.....

Here's a funny off topic, after swapping the phone i picked up another invisibleshield from best buy as i had a rewards certificate, thought of using it instead of going through the hassle of shipping with zagg, got home, got my hands washed and ready to install and my invisibleshield package is empty.....
No $h!t so im pissed now and going back to best buy tomorrow hoping they dont think i stole it or something

4g data hangs/Stals

Does anyone else have this issue where data seems to hang and stop working?? Whenever this happens I noticed that the up arrow on the 4g symbol on the notification bar is always green. Also nothing data related loads at all. Web, apps like Facebook and twitter, etc... I'm assuming that the up arrow thing means that something is being uploaded but sometimes it lasts a minute, others it lasts for five or ten. Really annoying. This has happened on all my phones. Nexus one, g1, original galaxy s and now my galaxy s 2. Any help would be awesome
Ps. Sorry for the long intro haha
Sent from my SGH-T989 using XDA

It's a network issue, only solution at this time if to switch service.
I'm just sayin!

I have the same problem in the Phoenix - Metro area. I've seen that taking the battery out will fix it, but it takes forever to boot, at least it feels this way since it usually happens when I need to connect for something.
Otherwise usually waiting a few seconds and trying again works too.
Its a real pain. I had Sprint before and I didn't have this kind of issues.

Its a known issue. Ive read a ton of threads on it No fix that Im aware of. Its not your phone, its TMo.

I am new to T-mobile and was thinking that i am the only one facing this problem
Called the T-mobile 4 times already and every time they just create a case but never resolve the issue. But now i guess they are already aware of their creepy network but are out of budget to repair the issue

Goofy317 said:
Does anyone else have this issue where data seems to hang and stop working?? Whenever this happens I noticed that the up arrow on the 4g symbol on the notification bar is always green. Also nothing data related loads at all. Web, apps like Facebook and twitter, etc... I'm assuming that the up arrow thing means that something is being uploaded but sometimes it lasts a minute, others it lasts for five or ten. Really annoying. This has happened on all my phones. Nexus one, g1, original galaxy s and now my galaxy s 2. Any help would be awesome
Ps. Sorry for the long intro haha
Sent from my SGH-T989 using XDA
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Rarely I have issues with signal freezes and hangs usually seems to come and go. Mostly just putting the phone in and out of airplane mode should reset connection (hold in power button until prompt appears, if phone shuts down with no menu first you need to reflash mine came from TMobile like that use kies to reflash stock phone). If using custom ROM with power options a hot reboot should be most that is needed. If not regular restart should work.
I have found when I get general issues I may not have a fix for I format my cache, my dalvick cache, then run fix permissions and restart. In more stubborn issues try re-flashing your ROM after formatting data and system partitions and clearing cache same as above (make sure to download ROM zips via wifi or transfer via USB from your computer. Zips downloaded this way are less prone to having error correction mistakes during transfer).
I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT YOU CHOOSE TO DO WITH YOUR OWN PERSONAL DEVICE. REMEMBER TO ALWAYS RUN A FULL NANDROID BACKUP.
Sent from my SGH-T989 using Xparent Green Tapatalk

I thought it was certain apps at first. It always seemed to happen when I was using the Facebook app so I uninstalled it and that seemed to fix the problem for a couple of weeks... But now that I know other people have the same problem I blame T-Mobile instead of my apps lol

I don't know why everyone keeps saying it's Tmobile.. I have had 10 different smartphones on tmobile since the g1, and this is the first time I have ever experienced this. I'm thinking it's something to do with the phone.. Could be hardware, could be software..
Sent from my SGH-T989 using xda premium

Towle said:
I don't know why everyone keeps saying it's Tmobile..
Sent from my SGH-T989 using xda premium
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Click to collapse
Because in my case and others here, it is!.....it seems your situation is different from everyone else who is experiencing this issue. Just take it as if you're lucky for not having to run across this problem thru your usage of several different phones.
Sent from my Sony Tablet S using Tapatalk

princeasi said:
Because in my case and others here, it is!.....it seems your situation is different from everyone else who is experiencing this issue. Just take it as if you're lucky for not having to run across this problem thru your usage of several different phones.
Sent from my Sony Tablet S using Tapatalk
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Click to collapse
Yeah it's just weird. Everyone I know uses an android, and I have never heard of this issue. Now we have 5 Galaxy S IIs on my family plan, and they all have the issue. I used a friends Sensation for 3 days last week, and the issue was non-existent...
So you know for a fact that this issue happens on all phones on tmobile, that aren't Samsung?
Sent from my SGH-T989 using xda premium

Towle said:
So you know for a fact that this issue happens on all phones on tmobile, that aren't Samsung?
Sent from my SGH-T989 using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I know for a fact that I first stumbled upon this issue a couple years ago when the Nexus S first launched. During that period, approximately a week before the Nexus was released, I purchased the HTC g2. I played with the g2 up to the release of the Nexus S. During my hands on with the g2, I ran into this same issue often, while surfing or using the phone after not having used it for a certain amount of time, where the"4g" icon would be displayed and the up arrow would be highlighted, while occasionally the down arrow would blink, signifying data communication. After a short while, the page wouldn't load and an error page would show. The Only way I would be able to remedy the problem is to reboot phone, or to switch flight mode on/off. At first I thought it was just the g2, but when I experienced this same identical issue after purchasing the Nexus S, I knew it couldn't be on the hardware side.
Sent from my Sony Tablet S using Tapatalk

Goofy317 said:
Does anyone else have this issue where data seems to hang and stop working?? Whenever this happens I noticed that the up arrow on the 4g symbol on the notification bar is always green. Also nothing data related loads at all. Web, apps like Facebook and twitter, etc... I'm assuming that the up arrow thing means that something is being uploaded but sometimes it lasts a minute, others it lasts for five or ten. Really annoying. This has happened on all my phones. Nexus one, g1, original galaxy s and now my galaxy s 2. Any help would be awesome
Ps. Sorry for the long intro haha
Sent from my SGH-T989 using XDA
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I had this issue too. I have no idea what the cause is but the fix is pretty simple. Go to wireless settings. Then mobile networks and set type to wcdma only.
Sent from next year on my CM 10ed G-Mobile Galaxy Note 2!

Towle said:
Yeah it's just weird. Everyone I know uses an android, and I have never heard of this issue. Now we have 5 Galaxy S IIs on my family plan, and they all have the issue. I used a friends Sensation for 3 days last week, and the issue was non-existent...
So you know for a fact that this issue happens on all phones on tmobile, that aren't Samsung?
Sent from my SGH-T989 using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This has happen to me on previous htc devices so it must be a tmobile problem.

Killbynature said:
This has happen to me on previous htc devices so it must be a tmobile problem.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah I think this was figured out at least a year and a half ago. Search on google, there is countless information regarding it.

G1ForFun said:
Yeah I think this was figured out at least a year and a half ago. Search on google, there is countless information regarding it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Crazy, maybe I've just never noticed it before.. I've always been a heavy user, so it's hard to believe I would have not noticed, but it sounds like that is the case. Tmobile needs to figure it out!

Towle said:
Crazy, maybe I've just never noticed it before.. I've always been a heavy user, so it's hard to believe I would have not noticed, but it sounds like that is the case. Tmobile needs to figure it out!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yea you just haven't noticed it. I had a G1 then a G2 and then this phone....I can't remember far back enough for the G1 (March 2009) but I know my G2 did it. (Jan 2011)

markusf21 said:
I had this issue too. I have no idea what the cause is but the fix is pretty simple. Go to wireless settings. Then mobile networks and set type to wcdma only.
Sent from next year on my CM 10ed G-Mobile Galaxy Note 2!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks I'll try this out and see if it works
Sent from my SGH-T989 using XDA

Thisis a known issue and no there is nothing you can do about it. Pray when we get ics we get an updated Barnabe that fixes this bull****.
Sent from my SGH-T989 using xda premium

Has anyone tried changing the DNS? I've been thinking about doing so with "Set DNS" from Google Play.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=uk.co.mytechie.setDNS

Galaxy S 4G
This happens on my wife's Galaxy S 4G sometimes - but usually only in areas that have weak signal. It will show that 4G is available and 3 bars or so but won't download anything.
Walk a little further and it starts up again.

Awaiting N7 random restart and reboot solution

For those not following this but the Google support forum is getting very long on the random restart and reboot thread.
Suggest you read it before buying. If you buy try to replicate or test for the gps, multi touch or restart issues.
Many of us are awaiting a response from Google on the restart issue other than Paul telling us how to submit a bug report.
The link is as follows:
https://productforums.google.com/forum/m/#!topic/mobile/mG4JXaT-SHs[451-475-false]
If you don't have this issue you are fortunate. I love this tablet and want a good one or a software patch. My seller has ordered me a replacement as I have till Friday on my 30 day exchange.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4

I received a new 32 gb unit last Friday. Experienced multiple reboots in the first 48 hours. I then cleared the cache in recovery mode and went 120 hours until the next reboot.
No resolution, no response, no acknowledgement from Google.
The forum continues https://productforums.google.com/forum/m/#!topic/nexus/mG4JXaT-SHs
Google customer service continues as atrocious
Sent from my Nexus 7

No surprise at all to those of us on that forum.
This has been a real mess for Google/ASUS, and the best way to deal with us 'statistically insignificant' owners is to just ignore and hope we'll go away (or, in some cases, fix it ourselves, which voids the warranty - they can then refuse service).
Either way, they win - we lose.
(froze 5 times while writing this)

Uninstall Chrome Beta.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using xda app-developers app

Not using Chrome beta. Why do you suggest that?
Sent from my Nexus 7
Updated: chrome beta now reported to be causing reboots.
I'm had installed it but stopped . I wonder if it left issues behind somehow.

oldtimer42 said:
Not using Chrome beta. Why do you suggest that?
Sent from my Nexus 7
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Click to collapse
Because that was the cause for the reboots on mine. Had at least half a dozen reboots a day before uninstalling, and now gone about a week without a single reboot after uninstalling.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using xda app-developers app

Same here.
Uninstalled all updates, and even disabled it.
Still freezing many, many times a day with the occasional reboot (thankfully only in its sleep).
Much worse after the 15Q 'update'.