Develop Bugs

Is TP2 battery life affected by partial charge-discharge cycles

Hi All,
When cellphones first came out, it was recommended to use the battery till it was almost empty and then charge it fully. This would maintain the batterys charge carrying capacity.
I wanted to ask if this still holds true with the TP2 and the new Li-Ion batteries?
Specifically, if you keep charging the TP2 every night (lets say when it is at always at 60% capacity and charge it to 100% by morning), will it substantially decrease battery life?
Thoughts would be welcome!

There are a few schools of thought on that one, and to be sure, since you have opened the can, all the worms are now about your feet
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Have fun putting them back in the tin again
Seriously, now...
Li-ion batteries do not suffer from the old Ni-Cad "memory effect". They suffer a loss of capacity and charge efficiency instead.
There's a rather good article on this over on wikipedia (link), but the long and the short of it is that for every charge, whether partial or full, the battery's ability to retain a full charge for a long period of time is lessened.
Thus, the longer you have the Li-Ion battery, and the more you recharge it, the more pronounced the effect, to the point where a couple of years down the line, the battery will take a full charge alright, but it might only hold that charge for a couple of hours at best.
The next stage in mobile device power cells will be Lithium Polymer (link), but that's new (relatively) tech, and there are a few problems in charging them - they require very specific charging handling to be safe/efficient.
Hope the above helps

Apologies
Apologies, but a detailed answer to this has already been posted in the Wiki. I should have read that first.
In a nutshell though it seems like this problem is not there anymore. Infact it is recommended to charge from a partially charged state as compared to a fully discharge state. Please read teh Wiki for more information

Thanks!
Roger Stenning: Thanks!
Also, people may want to take a look at the forums Wiki (not Wikipedia) to get more views
Over and out

Simple. LiIon batteries like being charged early and often. Don't deep discharge them unnecessarily. However, it is not necessary to plug them into the wall every time you get off the phone. My typical charge cycle is overnight and in the afternoon at work I'll charge the phone, that has always gotten me through the whole day on my last 3-4 different phones.

I always end up charging my phone up often, mainly because I use it as my mp3 player, so don't want to run out of charge whilst walking. With replacement batteries at £20 off quid I don't see it as too much as a problem.

Oh yeah, almost forgot - if you don't want to charge the phone while you're synching with your PC, go to settings -> all settings -> power and check the box "When device is turned on, do not charge the battery when connected to the PC."

Dear all,
There's a really useful guide to maintaining laptop and phone batteries from Battery University, cut into a short overview at http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/05/07/beginners_battery_maintenance/
Definately worth a read and busts a lot of the myths out there.
Adam.

Everyone seems to agree that keeping a battery charged is the best way to go.
Yet common sense tells me that since the optimum storage charge is 50%, then the battery might last the longest if it's operated around that level.
In other words, if your battery is around 60-70% and you can afford that, don't charge it until it drops to maybe 30-40%, then charge it back to 70%.
Does that make any sense?

not realy, I'm afraid. Read the wiki I linked to - you'll see that when a Lithium-Ion battery is charged, resistive deposits collect inside the electrolyte, causing the battery to be able to maintain a full charge for less time after each successive charging cycle. It's therefore best to charge the battery to its' fullest capacity each time, and allow it to drop to (my personal preference for Li-Io kit) no lower then 20% or so, so as to maximise the usable life of the battery. I can show you an Li_Io battery from my last pda/phone, an HP iPAQ hw6915, where the battery is so knackered that it'll only hold a charge for an hour - at best. That, after two years of partial charges due to repeated resyncs and concequential recharging in the interface cradle.
Hope the above helps you with a reasonably informed decision

RogerStenning said:
not realy, I'm afraid. Read the wiki I linked to - you'll see that when a Lithium-Ion battery is charged, resistive deposits collect inside the electrolyte, causing the battery to be able to maintain a full charge for less time after each successive charging cycle. It's therefore best to charge the battery to its' fullest capacity each time, and allow it to drop to (my personal preference for Li-Io kit) no lower then 20% or so, so as to maximise the usable life of the battery. I can show you an Li_Io battery from my last pda/phone, an HP iPAQ hw6915, where the battery is so knackered that it'll only hold a charge for an hour - at best. That, after two years of partial charges due to repeated resyncs and concequential recharging in the interface cradle.
Hope the above helps you with a reasonably informed decision
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think you're reading it wrong.. A charge cycle does not mean you plugged in the charger, it means it's a full cycle. Not necessarily from 0, but charging it 2-3% while your syncing would not be considered a "charge cycle".

khaytsus said:
I think you're reading it wrong.. A charge cycle does not mean you plugged in the charger, it means it's a full cycle. Not necessarily from 0, but charging it 2-3% while your syncing would not be considered a "charge cycle".
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Whenever current goes in, that's "charging". The more you do it, the less the battery holds. Period. It doesn't matter if you didn't get it all the way "full" or not, it matters if you plugged it in. Basically, using a rechargeable battery wears it out. I know, it's hard to believe. Discharging a cell completely wears it out extra fast. Don't do that.
FYI, the Prius never tries to never discharge it's (NiMH) battery below 40%, nor charge it over 60%. It does this to maximize the life span of the cells, but of course, it means your battery has a whole lot less usable capacity. It's a trade-off.
"Memory effect" basically doesn't exist, not in any circumstances you've ever encountered. I recommend reading this:
Dan's Quick Guide to Memory Effect, You Idiots

godefroi said:
FYI, the Prius never tries to never discharge it's (NiMH) battery below 40%, nor charge it over 60%. It does this to maximize the life span of the cells, but of course, it means your battery has a whole lot less usable capacity. It's a trade-off.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If that's true, then it's basically what I said, except not in such an extreme. And the other guy said "oh no, not really".

acrh2 said:
If that's true, then it's basically what I said, except not in such an extreme. And the other guy said "oh no, not really".
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Right, I'm reinforcing what you said.

QUESTION! battery discharge
godefroi said:
Right, I'm reinforcing what you said.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Found this old thread! Had a question. I have had the TP2 since it came out, I used to only have to charge it every other day or every 3 days. Now it is loosing charge quickly. Half a day at best. A day max with medium use, when medium use for 2 1/2 days killed the battery.
What is going on? Have Nue installed, seems that the voltage discharging is normal. But it seems to also drop from 10-0 REALLY quickly too. For instance, last two recharges have gone from 10 percent to 8 to 6 to 1% (nue showed it as 2 for about 30 seconds then it too showed at 1%.
What is going on with my battery?

Evo Charging Times

Can you help me out here? I'm a new Evo owner, but I have a background in electronics which spans nearly 50 years and a fairly comprehensive "technical" knowledge of lithium polymer batteries, chargers, and battery management protocols.
And I want to understand the issues that so many of you are experiencing with your Evo batteries. Why? Because I'm experiencing some of 'em too and if I understand what's happening I might be able to offer solutions. I already have a couple of theories and I even have some ideas for workarounds, but I'm missing a few pieces of the puzzle which I'm hoping you can help me find.
What I'd like to know is how long does it take you to recharge a dead or nearly depleted battery in your Evo. For this information to be useful I'll also need to know the size of the battery (in mAh) and the output of the charger (in mA).
Please note that I'm just as interested in how long it takes to charge a stock battery as I am in how long it takes to charge an extended battery. Likewise for wimpy chargers and high-output chargers. The more diverse the data is the more useful it will be.
So there you have it. Can you help me out? I'll be sharing my conclusions so you might be helping yourself too.
Pete

Reserved for data summary

2 hrs and 20 minutes roughly from dead to full. Stock battery, stock charging cable and adapter.

same, 2 hr 20 min dead to full 1500mAh charging at 1A. i average about 30hrs battery life.
Sent from my PC36100 using XDA App

Interesting. In round figures a 2:20 (2.3hr) charge time for a 1500mAh battery indicates a ~650mA charge rate. This suggests that HTC has built a ~650mA charging current regulator into the Evo because a 1000mA (1A) charge rate would charge a 1500mAh battery in a little over 1.5hr.
The regulated charge rate isn't at all surprising. In fact, it's standard practice in consumer electronics devices. Most LiPo cells can safely be charged at 1C, which would be 1500mA (1.5A) for a 1500mAh battery, but they can react explosively when pushed harder. The folks who engineer consumer electronics also tend to stay well below maximum rates because they need to assume (among other things) that some people will continue to use batteries that are worn out or damaged and really should be replaced.
My primary reason for posting this thread and asking this question is to get enough evidence to determine whether the Evo could be charged faster with more powerful chargers, and the answer seems to be no. It can obviously be charged slower if someone uses a charger with an output below 650mA, but I'd be surprised if it could be charged any faster with a more powerful charger.
And FWIW, a dead 3500mAh battery would take about 5.4hrs to charge at a 650mA charge rate. My guess is this is even how long it will take in Seidio's external charger because the engineers would have to assume that people will also be charging OEM batteries in them.
But this is all assumption based on common engineering practices and 2 reports (so far). I'd sure like to have some more data to work with; especially data for different chargers and battery capacities. Another question I'd like to answer is whether the Evo has a mAh cap or a time limit on a charge cycle. The mAh cap could be tough, but a time limit might be pretty easy to work around.
I suppose I should add one more thing: My job as a maintenance supervisor for a pharmaceutical manufacturing and analytical lab requires that I'm reachable by phone at all times, so the experimentation I can do with my own phone is pretty limited. For example, I can't turn it off to charge the battery and I feel real uneasy about running the battery dead for testing purposes. My phone use habits seem to be served pretty well by the 1500mAh OEM battery but I'd like to have the reserve of an extended battery.
But not at the expense of having to remove the battery from the phone to charge it. That's a deal-breaker for me.
The bottom line is: Please keep posting your charge times and don't forget to include the output of the charger and the mAh rating of the battery. In return, I'll share any conclusions I come to so we can discuss them and possibly come up with a workable solution.
Pete

I'm draining my Sprint OEM extended battery (2600 mAh) and will post the results.

sk63 said:
I'm draining my Sprint OEM extended battery (2600 mAh) and will post the results.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That will be an interesting comparison.
If my calculation of a 650mAh charge rate is correct then it should take a little over 4 hours to charge, but that could be affected by whether the phone is on or off and what processes and apps are running if it's on.
I'm particularly interested in whether it will fully-charge or whether a mAh or time limit will interrupt the charge cycle before that happens.
Pete

It finally died and I started charging it at 12:25 without turning it back on. Using the stock AC charger.
Anecdotally, I use the Current Widget and when charging it hovers around 650mAh. And when discharging it's usually under 400mAh and with the screen off, well under 100mAh.
I believe the widget monitors the current in/out of the battery and that while charging, the current needed to run the phone bypasses the battery directly so the widget doesn't register it. Though I would need a multimeter to confirm.
I've also got the stock battery I'm draining using a Hero. After the extended finishes charging them I'll swap and charge while the phone is on and compare the rate.
EDIT: Extended took almost exactly 4 hours charge. Now testing the charge rate of the stock battery with the phone on.

Glad to see someone doing this, as a lot of different information is posted on this board about batteries and charging.
I just wanted to add that when looking at current widget logs, the charging rate does seem to change depending on the battery life, as you get close to full the charging rate does seem to gradually decrease until it is quite low, at least according to current widget. I have seen other users say that it is only the last ten percent that the phone does this, but I can't be too sure as using my phone usually interrupts the log and such.
At least the current widget logs give some indication of the charging rate changing under different conditions, if not at least the phone using more or less current for these conditions.

sk63 said:
Anecdotally, I use the Current Widget and when charging it hovers around 650mAh.
~~~ snippo ~~~
EDIT: Extended took almost exactly 4 hours charge.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Boy, I hit those two nails right on the head didn't I? That's the nice thing about electricity: It can easily be predicted with mathematics.
I'll be looking as soon as I post this, but where does one find this "current widget" and does it run on a non-rooted phone?
And sk63: Almost exactly? Thanks for the info!
Pete

PGRtoo said:
And sk63: Almost exactly? Thanks for the info!
Pete
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It was like 4 hours +/- 5 minutes missed the exact moment when the light when green.
Stock battery with phone turned on took close to four hours as well. Phone usage didn't seem particularly high, maybe there was an issue in swapping the batteries.

So I'm guessing the 800 ma aftermarket charging cable I bought would be sufficient?
** As a sidenote, I wonder if this 650 ma limitation is hardware or software enforced? If software enforced, could we turn it off to hit closer to 1 amp? Couldn't a developer write an app to fix this? If not an app, perhaps a kernel?
This is kind of like a CPU being rated at 3.0 Ghz when it can safely run at 3.8 Ghz by people that know what they are doing. The 650 ma limitation is just "idiot" proofing.

If current widget is accurate, when charging I've seen my log read up to 900mah, I always figured this was how much current going into the battery. The more I use the phone the lower it goes.
Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk

2:20 hours for a full charge? Dang, it only takes me about 1:27 to charge my dead battery to 100% with the phone on, stock battery.

Are you asking about higher mA chargers for the purpose of charging the stock OEM battery faster, or for being able to simply charge a higher capacity battery?
Does charging the battery faster have any negative or positive affects on the battery or battery life? Because I seem to remember posts talking about the differences between charger the evo with a stock battery from the wall charger vs charger from a usb on a computer. The wall charger would charge the battery much faster, but seemed to drain faster also. With the usb charger, charging took a longer time, but some were saying that it also lengthened the battery life (charge cycle). Now I don't remember if those were completely accurate results, but I suppose it made sense. But if it was true that a slower charge made for a longer battery life, whats really the difference? At that point, does it come down to battery/cell structure? Because electricity is electricity, for the charger its all dc. So how is the charging rate regulated when plugged into the computer?
These are just things that this thread has made me think of. My conclusion though, is that in regards to battery life, any fixes would all on the software side for now, at least if we are using the stock 1500mA battery. And every 10 people on this board have 15 different ways to increase battery life, whether through a certain rom or what-not.
I also read in another post, that battery technology is not advancing as fast as cellular technology is. So at the end of the day, we have an awesome phone that can literally do almost anything, shorter battery life was to be expected. But its no where near as bad as people were saying it was before june 6th (public launch date).

Just to throw in my .02 cents here...
The battery capacity of 1500mah is hardcoded into the evo's system.
This means that even the sprint extended battery suffers from the flaw of not being charged properly in the evo just like the seidios. I own the sprint extended and the seidios and they both demonstrate the same charging flaw while charging in the evo.
The hardcode is seen while the phone is on. While the phone is off it's possible there is some sort of hardware limitations imposed to keep the full battery capacity locked at 1500mah.
I have been looking into a way to possibly overwrite this hardcode on a rooted evo but so far my efforts have been null.

i believe temperature greatly effects charging and battery life as well.
my makita power tools have a 30 minute rapid charger and in order to get such quick charge times it uses a fan to cool the battery during the charge. the charger includes circuitry to slow down the charge rate if the temperature can't remain cool enough as well.
lithium ion batteries as well.
just shows ya, the batteries likely could charge much faster, but you'd have to incorporate some extra cooling so they don't get damaged.
i'd imagine the OP's assumption is about right.

jasongthang said:
But if it was true that a slower charge made for a longer battery life, whats really the difference? At that point, does it come down to battery/cell structure? Because electricity is electricity, for the charger its all dc. So how is the charging rate regulated when plugged into the computer?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The stock Evo battery pack contains a single 1500mAh 3.7V lithium-ion polymer (LiPo) cell. I haven't actually opened one up, but the larger "extended" battery packs probably contain a pair of 3.7V lithium-ion polymer cells wired in parallel which, for all practical purposes, is the electrical equivalent of a larger single cell.
Regardless, LiPo cells don't care whether you charge them slowly or quickly (within reason). There is no electrical or chemical reason why a LiPo that is charged slowly will release it's energy any differently than a LiPo that is charged quickly. The only difference might be that one which is constantly charged at a maximum rate may not be capable of as many charge-discharge cycles before it loses significant capacity. That, by the way, is what the phrase "cycle-life" refers to: The number of charge-discharge cycles a battery is capable of before it wears out.
And neither the internal charging circuit in the Evo or the Seidio external charger will charge a battery at anywhere near the most widely accepted maximum rate for a LiPo (1C). If they did they would charge a dead battery in about an hour.
Pete

Got LiPos?
Here are just a few of mine. The big ones are out in the hangar (garage).
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Pete

PGRtoo said:
Here are just a few of mine. The big ones are out in the hangar (garage).
Pete
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Those deans plugs piss me off sometimes. R/C enthusiast I take it.

Found possible proper battery Calibration for mango Update beta

After updating my HTC HD7 to mango update Beta, i found the battery draining faster than Nodo. With Nodo a proper HTC soft reset could do the trick sometimes but the soft reset does not seem to calibrate the battery. On HTC website its stated that "Perform a soft (normal) reset to clear all active program memory and shut down all active programs. This is useful when your phone is running slower than normal, or a program is not performing properly....". Nowhere in the htc website says soft reset calibrates battery, what it actually does is fresh boot up of OS
here is what i found out after days of experimenting
the battery indicator is inaccurate because mango changed the core OS
to a new one probably screwing up the battery indicator too. if u expereince unusual short battery life while during usage, or in standby with push and radios oN. The battery indicator is overestimating and showing 100% when it could probably be 50 % or some other value. Hence the reason why the battery is being used up faster because its not showing the real charge. Imagine u take a container and fill up to to 50% only and some kind of indicator show that its 100%. indicator tries to catch up with the false reading as the battery drops in usage hence giving the scenario of battery draining faster than usual. So the solution is not to charge it repeatedly to 100% because the charge indicator will still show as inaccurate since the circuitry cuts of charging at 100% indicator and shuts down at 0% with the false reading range. Many references recommend to charge the battery overnight for 8 hours or so., or leave it to trickle charge ect This is wrong because this works only for fresh new batteries that are not "primed"
I let the phone drain fully until it cannot turn on and charged to 50% and it noticed it seem to last longer or just as good as NoDO. thinking that something is amiss or altered here, i then let it go to
1 % Then charged it back to 100%. U should notice that full charging will take longer than usual. Around 2 hours ++.
1) Fully drain the battery till the phone shuts off
2) Charge the battery to 50%
3) run down the battery to 1%
4) Fully charge it to 100%
5) repeat the procedures 3) and 4) a few times for the next few days whenever its possible and follow the same routine every time u charge
Here is a diagram explaining how i came to the conclusion. Report back if the battery life has improved for u
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My phone doesn't shut off when it's fully charged you may want to explain that one better
Sent from my arrive using XDA Windows Phone 7 App

kwajr said:
My phone doesn't shut off when it's fully charged you may want to explain that one better
Sent from my arrive using XDA Windows Phone 7 App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Why does it need to shut off?

I also found that the battery seemed to drain pretty quick. But this sounds logical. I'll test you method and report back.

Some where r all over the place , its stated that many devices using lithium ion have battery indicator problems .
Maybe this s the problem.

What did you edit in your op
Magpir said:
Why does it need to shut off?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sent from my arrive using XDA Windows Phone 7 App

anyone have improved battery life in this method??

I suggest to read this or this and this before you exercise this procedure. Here are the main points:
- A Li ion battery loses about 20% capacity per year if fully charged at typical average temps of 25C. It only loses 4% if charged to 50% (all of this highly temperature dependent).
- Li ion batteries have no memory effect (holding less charge)
- completely draining a Li ion battery is bad (if you let it sit in this state you may end up with a dead battery)
- shallow discharges are best (let the battery drain to 15-20%, then recharge)
in summary, the more you stress the battery by charging/discharging the sooner it will see its end of life. The best is to keep it at values of 50-60% charge. Of course this is not always practical (trips etc), just try not to always push it to 100% if possible.
if you think the OS/battery indicator interprets the battery level incorrectly, that is a whole different story of course and would be a major flaw (and could be manufacturer dependent). I did not see any difference between NoDo and Mango on mine.

My method is not deep discharging the battery. Its to calibrate the indicator as seems that the os is controlling the indicator

Also do note that one yr phone comes new, ita battery is charged to 40% only.

Basically there's a sensor in your phone that is used by your phone to tell how full/empty the battery is.
This sensor doesn't actually know how full your battery is, all it knows is how much power is coming from your battery at the time. The problem it has is that all batteries are slightly different, and their capacity goes down over time and usage (a three year old battery will not be able to hold as much charge as a brand new battery).
Your phone keeps a record of the maximum power it's ever had from the battery, as well as knowing the minimum power that it can safely work with before it has to turn itself off. It uses the difference between those two numbers, and the current power at any time to calculate how much percentage of your battery you have left at that time. So with a new battery, the phone might be telling you that the battery is fully charged because it's charged to the highest level the phone's ever seen, but if you leave it charging a bit longer then it might charge more, and then the phone can recalibrate itself and use this new value as the most it's ever seen.
You should only need to do this "over-charging" with a brand new phone/battery, after that the phone know the maximum values, and can more accurately tell you when it's full.

The correct way is to charge it from 1% always once its calibrated.

derausgewanderte said:
I suggest to read this or this and this before you exercise this procedure. Here are the main points:
- A Li ion battery loses about 20% capacity per year if fully charged at typical average temps of 25C. It only loses 4% if charged to 50% (all of this highly temperature dependent).
- Li ion batteries have no memory effect (holding less charge)
- completely draining a Li ion battery is bad (if you let it sit in this state you may end up with a dead battery)
- shallow discharges are best (let the battery drain to 15-20%, then recharge)
in summary, the more you stress the battery by charging/discharging the sooner it will see its end of life. The best is to keep it at values of 50-60% charge. Of course this is not always practical (trips etc), just try not to always push it to 100% if possible.
if you think the OS/battery indicator interprets the battery level incorrectly, that is a whole different story of course and would be a major flaw (and could be manufacturer dependent). I did not see any difference between NoDo and Mango on mine.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What this guy said. I haven't seen a big change in battery performance either, at least on really intensive tasks like web browsing (at least on my phone). Other than that it seems to discharge a lot slower. On the other hand, I'm wondering if all feedback I'm sending back to Microsoft is having some impact. Perhaps I'll turn those off to see how it performs.

ScottSUmmers said:
What this guy said. I haven't seen a big change in battery performance either, at least on really intensive tasks like web browsing (at least on my phone). Other than that it seems to discharge a lot slower. On the other hand, I'm wondering if all feedback I'm sending back to Microsoft is having some impact. Perhaps I'll turn those off to see how it performs.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
the battery performance is
dependent on the battery capacity.
Calibration helps to maximize the phone battery capacity without the indicator shutting it off prematurely.
imagine yr car has a petrol indicator which is wrong and it shuts off yr car because it thinks that the petrol is used up
but u still find that there is a good amount of petrol left but the car is not using them because of the indicator which shuts down the car prematurely

Magpir said:
the battery performance is
dependent on the battery capacity.
Calibration helps to maximize the phone battery capacity without the indicator shutting it off prematurely.
imagine yr car has a petrol indicator which is wrong and it shuts off yr car because it thinks that the petrol is used up
but u still find that there is a good amount of petrol left but the car is not using them because of the indicator which shuts down the car prematurely
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Again, if you assume the Mango OS interprets the battery circuit wrong (controller IC built into battery), then something is utterly wrong of course and needs to be addressed. I have not seen many people here having problems with battery life that would be alarming. This should also be manufacturer dependent as the battery status is first interpreted by the phone's hardware before it goes to the OS....
my two cents...

derausgewanderte said:
Again, if you assume the Mango OS interprets the battery circuit wrong (controller IC built into battery), then something is utterly wrong of course and needs to be addressed. I have not seen many people here having problems with battery life that would be alarming. This should also be manufacturer dependent as the battery status is first interpreted by the phone's hardware before it goes to the OS....
my two cents...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
there are in fact alarming battery problems in wp7 phones.
do a quick google.

Magpir said:
the battery performance is
dependent on the battery capacity.
Calibration helps to maximize the phone battery capacity without the indicator shutting it off prematurely.
imagine yr car has a petrol indicator which is wrong and it shuts off yr car because it thinks that the petrol is used up
but u still find that there is a good amount of petrol left but the car is not using them because of the indicator which shuts down the car prematurely
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No I understand what you're saying, and I've done calibrations before. However, I was just quoting derausgewanderte as a warning that letting it discharge to 0% will decrease the life of your battery faster. If it's of no concern to you by all means.

Yes my method did not advocate draining to 0% multiple times. Only once as regular calibration routine

Magpir said:
Yes my method did not advocate draining to 0% muryople times. Only once as regular calibration routine
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
1% - 0%: how would you be able to tell the difference if your argument is that the indicator reading is wrong?

derausgewanderte said:
1% - 0%: how would you be able to tell the difference if your argument is that the indicator reading is wrong?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
scroll up and read my first post.

New battery & how to condition it

I'm ordering a spare battery; what is the best way to give it it's first charge / how should I condition it?

I don't think a lithium ion battery needs to be "conditioned" since it does not have the "memory" effect. It's usually the battery stats on the phone that can mess up the reading.
I would probably just make sure it is fully charged when switching them to be more accurate. But, I'm no expert...
Vangelis13 said:
I'm ordering a spare battery; what is the best way to give it it's first charge / how should I condition it?
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Thanks for the reply.
I'm fairly sure I'd read somewhere that it should be fully charged before turning on the phone for the first time & after that do a couple full cycles (full-empty-full) etc..?

Yes, a full charge before using is recommended (I've also heard to let it sit on the charger for a couple more hours after it is charged helps) and maybe a few full "cycles" after that. But, like I said, I'm no expert and I, personally, have had no issues with my battery
Vangelis13 said:
Thanks for the reply.
I'm fairly sure I'd read somewhere that it should be fully charged before turning on the phone for the first time & after that do a couple full cycles (full-empty-full) etc..?
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live4nyy said:
I don't think a lithium ion battery needs to be "conditioned" since it does not have the "memory" effect. It's usually the battery stats on the phone that can mess up the reading.
I would probably just make sure it is fully charged when switching them to be more accurate. But, I'm no expert...
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Click to collapse
True, it's not for the battery but for the phone stats. Lithium ion batteries are fully conditioned at the factory before being sent out. It's the last step in the actual cell manufacturing process.
Yes, I work for a lithium ion battery manufacturer. We make larger cells (not the tiny ones in a phone battery) but I have contacts and friends that work for other manufacturers that do make the little ones and they're basically all the same.

i ordered too 1800mah batteries cause i couldnt find any 1950s...they both arrived dead i waited 30 mins to charge and turn the phone on, and the other one is extremely dead it shows charging for a few minutes and then the red light turns off
so far the one i charged to 100% isnt working how i would have liked it dropped to 50% within a few hours and i charged it to 100 again and it dropped to 80 very quickly im gonna let it die tonight hopefully i get them to work good

Sorry about your bad experience.
Don't know what you purchased or the vendor, but I purchased a 3200 mAh batt from Siedio and am quite happy with it. I've been using it for over a month and get heavy use of my Atrix. High quality batteries are not cheap. Don't get the $20 dollar specials. (I have no financial interest in Siedio, I'm sure there are other vendors with quality batteries).
Battery calibration has been a challenge but I think I have a solution. I'll know in a few days as I'm presently recalibrating. It would have been so much easier if Moto had added a 5 cent current sensor to the phone.

I wouldn't worry too much about conditioning it. Just use it like you regularly would any other battery. Most horrible battery life comes from the way Android handles the battery stats. In my experience, most Li-ion batteries seem to really get their most effective use cycles after about a week or 2 of consistent usage. If you're experiencing some really drastic battery drops though, that's when it may be time to recalibrate the battery stats or start questioning the rom/radio/kernel that you're using.

k0sun7eash3d said:
I wouldn't worry too much about conditioning it. Just use it like you regularly would any other battery. Most horrible battery life comes from the way Android handles the battery stats. In my experience, most Li-ion batteries seem to really get their most effective use cycles after about a week or 2 of consistent usage. If you're experiencing some really drastic battery drops though, that's when it may be time to recalibrate the battery stats or start questioning the rom/radio/kernel that you're using.
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Yep. However, unless you're impatient, charging it to full shouldn't do you any harm

For Lithium ion batteries, I've always put them immediately on the charger, let them go to 100%. Then unplug and let it completely die (that is, let it get so low the phone turns itself off) without pluging in. Then charge back to 100%. After that, use as normal. Doing this has gotten me long battery life, both short and long term compared to others I know who dont do that.

When I bought my phone the Bell representative said to fully charge then discharge the battery. I thought that you aren't supposed to do this though because Li-Ion batteries lose some of their maximum life when you do that. Only Ni-Cad batteries needed conditioning like that.
I could be wrong though. Would be nice to know proper procedure for this kind of thing
Sent from my MB860 using XDA App

You're right, lithium ion batteries should not be fully discharged but it does help the first time to get the battery reading accurate. After that just charge whenever. It only really becomes a problem if you let it go dead too often.
Sparx10 said:
When I bought my phone the Bell representative said to fully charge then discharge the battery. I thought that you aren't supposed to do this though because Li-Ion batteries lose some of their maximum life when you do that. Only Ni-Cad batteries needed conditioning like that.
I could be wrong though. Would be nice to know proper procedure for this kind of thing
Sent from my MB860 using XDA App
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live4nyy said:
You're right, lithium ion batteries should not be fully discharged but it does help the first time to get the battery reading accurate. After that just charge whenever. It only really becomes a problem if you let it go dead too often.
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+1. There's two reasons store reps tell you to discharge and charge the battery at least one complete cycle before using the phone. The first is that they're stuck in the past and think li-ion tech is the same as NiMH. The second and more sound reason is that it helps to set the battery statistics. If you're one of those people who loves to mod their phones right when they open the box, you could theoretically bypass this step by rooting and charging to 100%, and then just doing a manual battery recalibration by wiping the battery stats.

jbg1 said:
i ordered too 1800mah batteries cause i couldnt find any 1950s...they both arrived dead i waited 30 mins to charge and turn the phone on, and the other one is extremely dead it shows charging for a few minutes and then the red light turns off
so far the one i charged to 100% isnt working how i would have liked it dropped to 50% within a few hours and i charged it to 100 again and it dropped to 80 very quickly im gonna let it die tonight hopefully i get them to work good
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah - if these are the Chinese jobs that came with the charger on Ebay, I got them too. They drop REALLY fast down to 5%, then I get at least another 24 hours out of them. It's crazy. I have tried to recalibrate by removing battery stats, but these haven't gotten any more accurate in several full charge / discharge cycles.
I suppose I will use them as spares, and just understand that the meter is not accurate on them. I still get a minimum two days with these cells. Will see how long they last. With batteries, you do get what you pay for.

DoD: Depth of Discharge for li-Ion batteries

I was browsing the web in search for an answer for a simple question:
"How to properly charge your li-ion battery and increase battery life?"
This is what I got so far.
1. Battery life cycle: Any Li-Ion battery life is measured based on how many times can you discharge it from 100% to 0%. Normally the figure is 300-500 times and it depends on a factor called DoD (Depth of Discharge).
2. Depth of Discharge (DoD): Quite self-explanatory thing. If you have 20% charge left, it means that DoD=80%. The higher is the DoD the lower is your battery life cycle.
Comparison table is here:
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So, here's the answer to the painful question "Why should not I discharge my li-ion to 0%?" The answer is - your battery will die faster. I'm trying to get used to put both my OEM and Mugen Power batteries to charge right after my Nexus informs about 15% charge left.
3. Deep discharge: Not allowed for li-ion batteries. This is pretty interesting: Li-ion should never be discharged too low, and there are several safeguards to prevent this from happening. The equipment cuts off when the battery discharges to about 3.0V/cell, stopping the current flow. If the discharge continues to about 2.70V/cell or lower, the battery’s protection circuit puts the battery into a sleep mode. This renders the pack unserviceable and a recharge with most chargers is not possible. To prevent a battery from falling asleep, apply a partial charge before a long storage period.
Also: Do not recharge lithium-ion if a cell has stayed at or below 1.5V for more than a week.
So, what I got from this section is - when I get to 0%, I will not try to switch on my phone again because that can damage my battery.
4. Don't charge in small portions: This is important in a long term for higher capacity batteries. If you use an extended 3000+mah battery it's important to use the whole capacity of the battery to avoid aging of cells that are not used. It's recommended to charge your extended battery to 100% from time to time.
5. Recycle your batteries
I think this article here could be updated a little with these.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=518861
Sources:
http://mugen.tv/?p=690
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_lithium_ion_batteries

Most smartphone maintain a charging current even after the 100% charge level is reached. I think that this should also have an effect on battery life....
What is your opinion ?

7_michel said:
Most smartphone maintain a charging current even after the 100% charge level is reached. I think that this should also have an effect on battery life....
What is your opinion ?
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I think that in this case battery is protected with the battery's controller that only opens the current when the discharge level is below a certain point. That is why it's safe to keep your phone on charge overnight.

This part is wrong
. Don't charge in small portions: This is important in a long term for higher capacity batteries. If you use an extended 3000+mah battery it's important to use the whole capacity of the battery to avoid aging of cells that are not used. It's recommended to charge your extended battery to 100% from time to time.
if you notice if you always discharge to 50% you will get 1500 discharge cycles, that's not 1500 discharges to 50%, but 1500 full charge cycles, which would be recharging it to 100% twice from 50%, so by going from 100% and always recharging at 50% you get 50% more life out of your battery. Li-ion batteries last longer when not full discharged regularly, sadly usage of a smartphone is not very well suited for keeping it at a high charge as most users, even me, don't charge multiple times a day but try to optimize their phone so they only have to recharge once a day at night, which is the reason I like removable and replaceable android phone batteries
Li-ion batteries also are smart in that they intelligently charge and discharge cells so that certain cells won't age more than others, so you don't have to worry about that.
Also this is for another poster, the batteries have protection circuits to ensure that you don't overcharge your phone, so leaving it on the chargers after 100% I charge my phone each night to 100% and it doesn't do any damage to the battery.

movielover76 said:
This part is wrong
. Don't charge in small portions: This is important in a long term for higher capacity batteries. If you use an extended 3000+mah battery it's important to use the whole capacity of the battery to avoid aging of cells that are not used. It's recommended to charge your extended battery to 100% from time to time.
if you notice if you always discharge to 50% you will get 1500 discharge cycles, that's not 1500 discharges to 50%, but 1500 full charge cycles, which would be recharging it to 100% twice from 50%, so by going from 100% and always recharging at 50% you get 50% more life out of your battery. Li-ion batteries last longer when not full discharged regularly, sadly usage of a smartphone is not very well suited for keeping it at a high charge as most users, even me, don't charge multiple times a day but try to optimize their phone so they only have to recharge once a day at night, which is the reason I like removable and replaceable android phone batteries
Li-ion batteries also are smart in that they intelligently charge and discharge cells so that certain cells won't age more than others, so you don't have to worry about that.
Also this is for another poster, the batteries have protection circuits to ensure that you don't overcharge your phone, so leaving it on the chargers after 100% I charge my phone each night to 100% and it doesn't do any damage to the battery.
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The "charge in small portions" is correct. What I meant is this if your battery is charged up to 50% and you keep charging it to 75% and never up to 100%, that is not good practice. Experience with new li-ion batteries shows that once or twice in a week it's important to charge it up to 100%.
Regarding the protection in the batteries - it works against overcharging, but sadly, not against overdischarging. Your phone will allow you to switch it on one or two times after the indicator shows the zero level. It's important NOT to do that because that damages chemistry in any type of batteries including li-ion.

okishead said:
The "charge in small portions" is correct. What I meant is this if your battery is charged up to 50% and you keep charging it to 75% and never up to 100%, that is not good practice. Experience with new li-ion batteries shows that once or twice in a week it's important to charge it up to 100%.
Regarding the protection in the batteries - it works against overcharging, but sadly, not against overdischarging. Your phone will allow you to switch it on one or two times after the indicator shows the zero level. It's important NOT to do that because that damages chemistry in any type of batteries including li-ion.
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1. Read this: http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_lithium_ion_batteries
"Li-ion does not need to be fully charged, as is the case with lead acid, nor is it desirable to do so. In fact, it is better not to fully charge, because high voltages stresses the battery."
2. This: http://www.centralhobbies.com/instructional/lithium.html
1. Charge often. Don't try to fully discharge the battery packs frequently. This only adds strain. Several partial discharges (regular use) with frequent recharges are better for lithium-ion than one total discharge.
Confusing, yes, sure is.
Basically, for Li-Ion battery.
1. NEVER allow deep discharge (to 0%). Once in a while, I still get an article on web suggesting let the battery completely discharged. Hmmm.
2. Fully charge (to 100%) is not good either, partially charge is better. Confuse enough?

Yes confusing!!!
Sent from my LG-P999 using xda premium

Newer charging li-ion battery over 90% will double it's lifetime. This is mentioned also in battery university page. Some laptops also include battery care function which limits full charge to 80%. This is good evidence that this is the way to prolong battery lifetime.

At first , i was agree with almost all of the article on the Internet about li ion battery.
But, after reading one comment from batteryuniversity article, this guys comment is refusing the article opinion that li ion do not have memory effects.
After doing some searching , wow , its true that li ion DO HAVE MEMORY EFFECTS like nicd do.
So what i do is always completely fully discharged my battery before charging it again. Actually, its almost impossible for smartphones battery to fully discharged while being using till the screen goes off by itself. Im using note 3 which has removable battery.
And yes. I dont have any problem with fully discharged my li ion battery. Battery still as good as new although being fully discharged for many2 times. Hard to believe? Try it and u will agree with me.
Sent from my SM-N900 using XDA Free mobile app

dojodo said:
At first , i was agree with almost all of the article on the Internet about li ion battery.
But, after reading one comment from batteryuniversity article, this guys comment is refusing the article opinion that li ion do not have memory effects.
After doing some searching , wow , its true that li ion DO HAVE MEMORY EFFECTS like nicd do.
So what i do is always completely fully discharged my battery before charging it again. Actually, its almost impossible for smartphones battery to fully discharged while being using till the screen goes off by itself. Im using note 3 which has removable battery.
And yes. I dont have any problem with fully discharged my li ion battery. Battery still as good as new although being fully discharged for many2 times. Hard to believe? Try it and u will agree with me.
Sent from my SM-N900 using XDA Free mobile app
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I have always gone by the recharge before it gets low rule, and told my friend the same with his HTC desire. His went over 3 years before original battery got tired. I haven't had any battery issues yet on phones I had new.
My ex thought it was best to discharge all the way and she had a laptop, an iPod and an iPhone all with basically ruined batteries. So I don't agree with you. I agree with the majority of the articles I've read like the battery university one.
Sent from my Nexus 4 using XDA Free mobile app