Develop Bugs

Google Earth in Windows Mobile?

At iPhone 3GS there is Google Earth with 3D view of some places mainly monuments, buildings and streets. In Windows Mobile there is Google Maps which is not so powerful.
Is there Google Earth to Windows Mobile? Please inform.
If not, is there some limitation in Windows Mobile devices to run Google Earth?
Thanks.

Remember that the iphone 3GS has the new generation of arm chipsets, just like Palm Pre (coretex A8 or something along those lines). The next generation of HTC products (some rumored to come out this year) will have similar chipsets, some of them more powerful if I'm not mistaken...
There's always been a problem with 3D graphics on this generation of Qualcomm chipsets due to the question of proper drivers. So I don't know if the current chipset is capable, but even if it were, I doubt it'd handle Google Earth without the proper drivers.

I don't know if the mobile version will suffer from it, but the full PC version of google earth has never been stable and has cause lots of PC's to blue screen.

OP: nope- looks like there's no Google Earth client for WM.
solsearch said:
Remember that the iphone 3GS has the new generation of arm chipsets, just like Palm Pre (coretex A8 or something along those lines). The next generation of HTC products (some rumored to come out this year) will have similar chipsets, some of them more powerful if I'm not mistaken...
There's always been a problem with 3D graphics on this generation of Qualcomm chipsets due to the question of proper drivers. So I don't know if the current chipset is capable, but even if it were, I doubt it'd handle Google Earth without the proper drivers.
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Well, the Google Earth app runs on the iPhone/iPhone 3G as well, which has a 412 MHz ARM11 CPU and a PowerVR MBX-Lite GPU (a lot slower than the 3GS' Cortex A8 CPU and PowerVR SGX535 GPU). The Qualcomm MSM7200's ATI Imageon GPU hardware is actually theoretically faster than the MBX-Lite, but the implementation is, for whatever reason (drivers, etc.), a lot slower.
So yeah, I'm inclined to think that Google might be concerned about graphics limitations here, because even Google's own Android OS doesn't have a Google Earth client yet-- presumably because most of the popular Android devices are HTC phones with the same MSM7200 internals.

I have Pro 2 and in general I'm satisfied with it. But also I have access to an iPhone 3GS and I can assure that iPhone is a very fast device, far faster than Pro2. So, I don´t understand:
1 - Why iPhone has no video call?!!!
2 - Why iPhone is so faster compared with Pro2?!!
3 - Why HTC is disable to put graphic part of CPU working?!!!
On the contrary than it´s said, there is an application that permit iPhone to be a multi task device.
Racing car games on iPhone run so well like a PC, and the same with Google Earth. It's incredible the speed of iPhone in all applications. Also there are hundred of applications to iPhone.
However I don´t know why iPhone GPS only works properly with Navigon and not so well with Tomtom!!!
If iPhone had video call, a better GPS and a 800x480 screen (it's only 480x320 - 3.5"), it would be by far the best device in the market mainly due to the speed of it.

cribeiro said:
I have Pro 2 and in general I'm satisfied with it. But also I have access to an iPhone 3GS and I can assure that iPhone is a very fast device, far faster than Pro2. So, I don´t understand:
1 - Why iPhone has no video call?!!!
2 - Why iPhone is so faster compared with Pro2?!!
3 - Why HTC is disable to put graphic part of CPU working?!!!
On the contrary than it´s said, there is an application that permit iPhone to be a multi task device.
Racing car games on iPhone run so well like a PC, and the same with Google Earth. It's incredible the speed of iPhone in all applications. Also there are hundred of applications to iPhone.
However I don´t know why iPhone GPS only works properly with Navigon and not so well with Tomtom!!!
If iPhone had video call, a better GPS and a 800x480 screen (it's only 480x320 - 3.5"), it would be by far the best device in the market mainly due to the speed of it.
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There are a few reasons for this- first, the iPhone 3GS has far superior processing power compared to the TP2, and second, WM can't even make full use of what power the TP2 does have.
To address the first point, the 3GS has an ARM Cortex A8 CPU at 600 MHz (867 MHz underclocked for heat/power savings). Cortex A8 is twice as fast, clock-for-clock, as the ARM11 architecture. The TP2's Qualcomm MSM7200 CPU has an ARM11 at 528 MHz, so in raw processing power, the 3GS is 2-3x faster. Further, MSM7200 lacks ARM11's VFP option, so all floating-point operations are done by software, while the Cortex A8 has the NEON floating-point accelerator. As a result, the 3GS is 40-50x faster than the TP2 at floating-point operations, which iPhone OS X uses quite heavily.
On the graphics end, Apple chose to pair the Cortex A8 with a PowerVR SGX 535 GPU, which blows away everything short of Tegra (about 40% slower than Tegra's GPU, but Tegra's CPU is a slow 600 MHz ARM11, so 3GS' CPU is >200% faster). The SGX 535 is even faster than the Qualcomm Snapdragon's GPU (an ATI Imageon Z430), and from what's been seen so far, the 3GS' GPU is often 10-30x faster than HTC's implementation of the MSM7200 (in TP2/TD2/G1/etc.).
Now onto the second point- Windows CE, which underpins Windows Mobile, only targets the ancient ARMv5 instruction set, so it can't take advantage of newer CPU features, like hardware floating-point units. In addition, WM lacks a composited desktop- so while the iPhone/Pre/Android OSes all use GPU acceleration to handle their UI, WM relies on the CPU, so it can never be as smooth, for the same reason that Windows XP's UI can never be quite as smooth as Vista/7 (which have GPU-composited desktops).
So the result of that is that even if you feed WM a lot of processing power, it won't perform as well as other mobile OSes due to its ancient architecture. See the Toshiba TG01, for example- its 1 GHz Snapdragon CPU (whose architecture is even faster than Cortex A8) is over 60% faster than the 3GS', and its GPU is almost as fast, yet in many cases the 3GS still blows it away in usability and app performance.
HTC saved money by going with the same old Qualcomm MSM7200 chipset for the TP2/TD2, but in reality, even a Snapdragon chip wouldn't solve WM's architectural deficiencies. That won't change until MS moves beyond CE5/6 (probably with WM7 in late 2010).
Stock iPhones can't multitask beyond Apple's own included apps (iTunes, Mail, etc.), but if you jailbreak the phone (a simple 5-minute process- much simpler than flashing a WM ROM), apps like Backgrounder let you multitask. Apple thoroughly optimized its software to extract the most out of its hardware, and it really shows if you push the phone hard-- even the original iPhone/3G perform quite well given their hardware.
As for video calling, no US carrier supports it, and even in Europe, usage rates are abysmal and the quality's usually poor, so it doesn't make too much sense for Apple to integrate until it can guarantee an iChat-quality video experience.

amb9800 said:
Now onto the second point- Windows CE, which underpins Windows Mobile, only targets the ancient ARMv5 instruction set, so it can't take advantage of newer CPU features, like hardware floating-point units.
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Actually, the OS targets ARMv4 so it's even worse, but makes it great to backport the OS to ancient devices.
However, the OS can take advantage of hardware FPU (detects for it even), but NO ODM will turn on the necessary OS support for it even if they ship a device with FPU in it, such as the S3C6410 in the OmniaII/Acer *900, and all the Snapdragon devices. They're all really lazy and enforces that if MS doesn't hand it on a silver platter to them, they won't make it themselves. They rather make more money shipping as many shoddy devices as possible (HTC).
So WM is a pretty poor platform to be on especially with a MSM7200 cpu crippling everybody. Google would be smart to dump HTC/Qualcomm's shackles and move to a modern platform for Android, and WM won't get there first.
It would be especially smart to just stop buying ANY device with a MSM7200 cpu in it unless all you want is feature-phone capabilities.

amb9800 said:
There are a few reasons for this- first, the iPhone 3GS has far superior processing power compared to the TP2, and second, WM can't even make full use of what power the TP2 does have.
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great analysis, very informative!
tanx

Google Earth Client on HD2
Yes, but is there a good reason why an HD2 couldn't handle a Google Earth client (or do you need to load Android instead of WM6.5 to make it work) ?

AndyHy said:
Yes, but is there a good reason why an HD2 couldn't handle a Google Earth client (or do you need to load Android instead of WM6.5 to make it work) ?
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Click to collapse
Snapdragon's GPU hardware is almost as powerful as the iPhone 3GS' (though driver implementation is still less than optimal), so I'm sure it could handle a Google Earth client. That said, Google's unlikely to release one for WM at this point...

Wow. Now that I am thoughly depressed that I paid 4x as much for my slower and less useful TP2 than for an iphone, I am going to have a hard time paying hte bill on this thing!
Thanks a lot!

Graphics Processor

Does the new hardware call for a graphics processor?
I know that Steve Jobs never sells a piece of hardware without a dedicated graphics processor, such as in the iPhone (PowerVR MBX-Lite graphics processor), or the Macbook (NVIDIA GeForce 9600M GT).
In windows machines, it is always an after-thought.

Snapdragon includes a perfectly reasonable graphics chip.

It just needs to be utilized with good drivers.

Shasarak said:
Snapdragon includes a perfectly reasonable graphics chip.
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Click to collapse
so no dedicated graphics processor?
Looks like iphone will still rule.

chiks19018 said:
so no dedicated graphics processor?
Looks like iphone will still rule.
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Click to collapse
Like everything else, we'll have to wait for MIX. But with their massive push into gaming and focus on XNA, I have no doubt that the graphics capability will be at least as good as if not light years ahead of iPhone.

RustyGrom said:
Like everything else, we'll have to wait for MIX. But with their massive push into gaming and focus on XNA, I have no doubt that the graphics capability will be at least as good as if not light years ahead of iPhone.
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I sure do hope. But history says otherwise. MS never pushed for a graphics card with any of it's products as a "required" item. If the same happens here and Apple develops a new iphone 4gs with an even more powerful processor and as usual combine a dedicated graphics processor, then WP7 will be in the same boat as now.

chiks19018 said:
I sure do hope. But history says otherwise. MS never pushed for a graphics card with any of it's products as a "required" item. If the same happens here and Apple develops a new iphone 4gs with an even more powerful processor and as usual combine a dedicated graphics processor, then WP7 will be in the same boat as now.
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What part of WP7 is like WM6? It's entirely different. Microsoft had practically no hardware requirements before, now they're being super strict. Gaming is a huge portion of their focus. We should know more next week at GDC. Besides, Snapdragon includes full 3d acceleration. There's no need for a discrete graphics chip as far as I'm aware.

Shasarak said:
Snapdragon includes a perfectly reasonable graphics chip.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
chiks19018 said:
so no dedicated graphics processor?
Looks like iphone will still rule.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What?! No, I said Snapdragon includes a perfectly reasonable graphics chip. How on Earth did you interpret that as meaning the exact opposite of what I said???
Snapdragon is not just a CPU. Snapdragon is a chipset, an entire mobile phone platform that consists of several separate chips. One of them is the CPU. Another of them is a graphics chip (or, if you prefer to phrase it that way, a "dedicated graphics processor") made by ATI/AMD. Honestly, have you never seen the Electopia demo running on a Snapdragon phone? The graphics are really quite impressive.
Yes, the Snapdragon GPU is somewhat less powerful than the one in the iPhone 3GS, but it's not an order of magnitude difference, and the faster CPU in Snapdragon (coupled with improved NEON instructions) somewhat compensates. Certainly the Snapdragon GPU is way more powerful than the one included with MSM72xx, and even that can run Xtrakt quite happily; it's miles ahead of the one in the iPhone 3G, too.

Shasarak said:
What?! No, I said Snapdragon includes a perfectly reasonable graphics chip. How on Earth did you interpret that as meaning the exact opposite of what I said???
Snapdragon is not just a CPU. Snapdragon is a chipset, an entire mobile phone platform that consists of several separate chips. One of them is the CPU. Another of them is a graphics chip (or, if you prefer to phrase it that way, a "dedicated graphics processor") made by ATI/AMD. Honestly, have you never seen the Electopia demo running on a Snapdragon phone? The graphics are really quite impressive.
Yes, the Snapdragon GPU is somewhat less powerful than the one in the iPhone 3GS, but it's not an order of magnitude difference, and the faster CPU in Snapdragon (coupled with improved NEON instructions) somewhat compensates. Certainly the Snapdragon GPU is way more powerful than the one included with MSM72xx, and even that can run Xtrakt quite happily; it's miles ahead of the one in the iPhone 3G, too.
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And thats for qsd8250.
Newer generation of snapdragon(msm8xxx and dual core QSD8672) has 4x greater performance than the snapdragon1. Don't know how's msm7x30 graphics performance. Besides we don't know which snapdragon chip will be used in windows phones.
It could either be qsd8650a which is 30% faster than the one used in HD2 or it could be the new msm7x30 or it could even be the high end msm8xxx which supports 1,3Ghz CPU, 1080p video and 4x faster GPU - hopefully it won't be qsd8250 which is manufactured at 65nm but something newer at 45nm. Power efficiency is very important, besides those newer chips just like tegra should be able to shutdown unused parts to minimize power consumption.

Out of curiosity - What's stopping WP7s manufacturers from using Tegra chips? I know Microsoft is working closely with Qualcomm, but does that automatically disqualify Nvidia as a supplier?
Regards

Silverdragondk said:
Out of curiosity - What's stopping WP7s manufacturers from using Tegra chips? I know Microsoft is working closely with Qualcomm, but does that automatically disqualify Nvidia as a supplier?
Regards
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Well MS clearly stated that qualcomm is first chip supplier for Windows Phones. Probably in the future they will allow tegra, omap and probably samsung chips too.
For now we are stuck with snapdragon which isn't that bad IMO.

Silverdragondk said:
Out of curiosity - What's stopping WP7s manufacturers from using Tegra chips? I know Microsoft is working closely with Qualcomm, but does that automatically disqualify Nvidia as a supplier?
Regards
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Drivers. MS isn't giving the OEMs as much control over the lower level OS and is developing all of the drivers themselves. No more will we have the problem of HTC deciding that 3d drivers aren't needed.

Wishmaster89 said:
And thats for qsd8250.
Newer generation of snapdragon(msm8xxx and dual core QSD8672) has 4x greater performance than the snapdragon1. Don't know how's msm7x30 graphics performance. Besides we don't know which snapdragon chip will be used in windows phones.
It could either be qsd8650a which is 30% faster than the one used in HD2 or it could be the new msm7x30 or it could even be the high end msm8xxx which supports 1,3Ghz CPU, 1080p video and 4x faster GPU - hopefully it won't be qsd8250 which is manufactured at 65nm but something newer at 45nm. Power efficiency is very important, besides those newer chips just like tegra should be able to shutdown unused parts to minimize power consumption.
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Click to collapse
It will be sick if they annouce the msm8xxx being required and that's why HD2 isn't supported. I'd take that trade off.

Wishmaster89 said:
And thats for qsd8250.
Newer generation of snapdragon(msm8xxx and dual core QSD8672) has 4x greater performance than the snapdragon1. Don't know how's msm7x30 graphics performance. Besides we don't know which snapdragon chip will be used in windows phones.
It could either be qsd8650a which is 30% faster than the one used in HD2 or it could be the new msm7x30 or it could even be the high end msm8xxx which supports 1,3Ghz CPU, 1080p video and 4x faster GPU - hopefully it won't be qsd8250 which is manufactured at 65nm but something newer at 45nm. Power efficiency is very important, besides those newer chips just like tegra should be able to shutdown unused parts to minimize power consumption.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not all Snapdragon variants are actually intended to be used in phones. Most of the more powerful ones will only ever end up in netbooks and devices like that.
Wishmaster89 said:
Well MS clearly stated that qualcomm is first chip supplier for Windows Phones. Probably in the future they will allow tegra, omap and probably samsung chips too.
For now we are stuck with snapdragon which isn't that bad IMO.
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The decision to exclude Samsung processors surprised me a bit. Samsung's "Hummingbird" CPU is easily the equal of the current generation Snapdragon, and Samsung has been a major supporter of Windows Mobile in the past. I guess MS wanted to limit itself to writing drivers for just one platform - allowing Samsung or OMAP processors would mean also allowing other GPUs, other GPS and Bluetooth hardware, etc.

Shasarak said:
The decision to exclude Samsung processors surprised me a bit. Samsung's "Hummingbird" CPU is easily the equal of the current generation Snapdragon, and Samsung has been a major supporter of Windows Mobile in the past. I guess MS wanted to limit itself to writing drivers for just one platform - allowing Samsung or OMAP processors would mean also allowing other GPUs, other GPS and Bluetooth hardware, etc.
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It's always sounded to me like they just picked one to launch with and will support others going forward. Writing drivers and testing other platforms at this point doesn't really give a good bang for the buck.
We should know on the 10th (the first GDC windows phone sessions). I would think the graphics capability would be something they would share there. But then again, they've shown an astounding ability to just say "wait for MIX" so far so they very well could keep that up.
Developing Games for Windows Phone 7 Series
Speaker: Michael Klucher
Time: 1:15-2:15pm
The future of Windows Phone has never looked better. With the release of Windows Phone 7 Series, game developers will be able to create amazing content rapidly. This talk outlines the basic framework for games, presents Windows Phone 7 Series device characteristics, and provides and overview of game development on the phone.
High Performance 3D Games on Windows Phone 7 Series
Speaker: Tomas Vykruta & Shawn Hargreaves
Time: 2:30-3:30pm
Windows Phone 7 Series is a highly capable platform for game development. This talk covers 3D game development on Windows Phone 7 Series with an emphasis on the unique characteristics of the platform. The talk also focuses on optimizing high-performance games for the platform, to help developers squeeze out every last drop of performance.
Development and Debugging Tools for Windows Phone 7 Series
Speaker: Cullen Waters
Time: 3:45pm-4:45pm
This talk discusses the basic tools available to game developers on Windows Phone 7 Series, including debugging, emulation, and performance tools. The talk places special emphasis on best practices for performance and profiling tools that can be used to optimize games for Windows Phone 7 Series.
Bringing the Best of Xbox LIVE to Windows Phone 7 Series
Speaker: Adam Schaeffer
Time: 5:00-6:00pm
The Xbox LIVE service is going mobile! With Windows Phone 7 Series, core features such as Achievements, Leaderboards, and game invites will be available to games on Windows Phone 7 Series devices. This talk covers the basics of the services available and how they can be used to enable core Xbox LIVE functionality in games. In addition, this talk will present best practices for connecting Windows Phone 7 Series games to back-end servers.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

I imagine that they want WP7 to be as smooth and hitch-free as possible to start out with. That means not allowing for any unknown variables such as different hardware, drivers, software.
It's the same for Iphone or any of the console game machines. It's one piece of hardware that is always the same making it easier to plan things for and develop things for. Which ends up meaning a higher perception of quality from the consumers due to lack of glitches and crashes.
Hence Apple's commercials saying how often PCs crash and stuff. They crash because PCs have way more variables as far as hardware and drivers than Macs have making many more incompatibilities.
Microsoft will probably allow other hardware once WP7 has a good name going in the consumers eyes.

Shasarak said:
Not all Snapdragon variants are actually intended to be used in phones. Most of the more powerful ones will only ever end up in netbooks and devices like that.
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Click to collapse
You're right. QSD8672 is targeted at smartbooks but msm8xxx is designed to power both smarphones and smartbooks. Besides OMAP4 and tegra2 are powerful but still we can expect smartphones based on those platforms next year.
The decision to exclude Samsung processors surprised me a bit. Samsung's "Hummingbird" CPU is easily the equal of the current generation Snapdragon, and Samsung has been a major supporter of Windows Mobile in the past. I guess MS wanted to limit itself to writing drivers for just one platform - allowing Samsung or OMAP processors would mean also allowing other GPUs, other GPS and Bluetooth hardware, etc.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think so too. More hardware platforms mean more work to do. So I think that support for other hardware platforms will come after they'll finish V1 of WP7 - this way they will just have to port complete full OS from snapdragon to other platform.

Shasarak said:
What?! No, I said Snapdragon includes a perfectly reasonable graphics chip. How on Earth did you interpret that as meaning the exact opposite of what I said???
Snapdragon is not just a CPU. Snapdragon is a chipset, an entire mobile phone platform that consists of several separate chips. One of them is the CPU. Another of them is a graphics chip (or, if you prefer to phrase it that way, a "dedicated graphics processor") made by ATI/AMD. Honestly, have you never seen the Electopia demo running on a Snapdragon phone? The graphics are really quite impressive.
Yes, the Snapdragon GPU is somewhat less powerful than the one in the iPhone 3GS, but it's not an order of magnitude difference, and the faster CPU in Snapdragon (coupled with improved NEON instructions) somewhat compensates. Certainly the Snapdragon GPU is way more powerful than the one included with MSM72xx, and even that can run Xtrakt quite happily; it's miles ahead of the one in the iPhone 3G, too.
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my bad. I thought snapdragon is a processor.

Looks like Qualcomm DOES have dual-core processors

http://www.engadget.com/2011/01/13/qualcomm-unveils-dual-core-snapdragon-reference-handset-at-ces-2/
1.2GHz MSM8660 with Adreno 220 graphics
Considering Microsoft's relationship with Qualcomm, these will probably be a part of the second gen WP7 hardware. ilomilo popped up in the video twice, so there's an indication that the new dual core processors could be related to WP7. You can also stream 3D content to a TV through your phone!
MSM8x60 chipset platform consists of the MSM8260™ and MSM8660™.
Scorpion asynchronous dual-CPU cores, up to 1.2GHz for faster response and processing
Integrated 3G mobile broadband connectivity
MSM8260 support for HSPA+ networks – up to 14 Mbps downloads and 5.6 Mbps uploads – as well as GSM, GPRS and EDGE
MSM8660 support for HSPA+ networks – up to 14.4 Mbps downloads and 5.76 Mbps – as well as CDMA2000 1X, 1xEV-DO Rel A/B, GSM, GPRS and EDGE
Low-power 45nm process technology for higher integration and performance
High-definition (1080p) video recording and playback up to 30 frames per second
Multiple video codecs: (MPEG-4, MPEG-2, H.264, H.263, VC-1, DivX, WMV-9, Sorenson Spark, VP6)
High-performance GPU – up to 88M triangles/sec and 532M 3D pixels/sec and dedicated 3D/2D acceleration engines for Open GLES 2.0 and Open VG 1.1 acceleration
High-resolution WXGA (1280x800) display support
16-megapixel camera support
Built-in eighth-generation gps engine with Standalone-GPS and Assisted-GPS modes
Support for Wi-Fi® and Bluetooth® connectivity
Multiple audio codecs: (AAC+, eAAC+, AMR, FR, EFR, HR, WB-AMR, G.729a, G.711, AAC stereo encode)
Support for mobile broadcast TV (MediaFLO™, DVB-H and ISDB-T)
Support for Android™, Brew® Mobile Platform and Windows® Phone
http://www.qualcomm.com/products_services/chipsets/snapdragon.html
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Full specs are here http://www.qualcomm.com/products_services/chipsets/snapdragon.html
Look for Third Gen Snapdragon

lqaddict said:
Full specs are here http://www.qualcomm.com/products_services/chipsets/snapdragon.html
Look for Third Gen Snapdragon
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Thanks for the link. I'm liking some of these features, especially the last one:
-Scorpion asynchronous dual-CPU cores, up to 1.2GHz for faster response and processing
-MSM8260 support for HSPA+ networks – up to 14 Mbps downloads and 5.6 Mbps uploads – as well as GSM, GPRS and EDGE
-High-definition (1080p) video recording and playback up to 30 frames per second
-Multiple video codecs: (MPEG-4, MPEG-2, H.264, H.263, VC-1, DivX, WMV-9, Sorenson Spark, VP6)
-High-resolution WXGA (1280x800) display support
-Support for Android™, Brew® Mobile Platform and Windows® Phone
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

lqaddict said:
Full specs are here http://www.qualcomm.com/products_services/chipsets/snapdragon.html
Look for Third Gen Snapdragon
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Click to collapse
i would like to see new Windows phone 7 come out with This specs
it Will be amazing
maybe for Mango update to the end of year

I will transfer my LG Optimus 7 to a family member of choice, and acquire whatever LG or Samsung come up with that has the same build quality as my current phone, with better screen of course (and better camera) along that dual-core goodness...Here is hoping the Storage and Memory will increase too...(something along the lines of 32GB storage with 1GB RAM and a 100mm screen (3.94 inch) will be awesome).

How is powervr g6430 rogue when campared to top class gpu's like adreno 405 etc?

Is power vr g6430 any good when campared to adreno gpu's?

http://www.gsmarena.com/apple_iphone_5s_vs_lg_g2_vs_nokia_lumia_1020-review-997p5.php
The same GPU used on iPhone 5s. Based on this benchmark, it's better than Adreno 330 I think.
Adreno 405 isn't top class GPU. According to GFLOPS numbers, 405 is better than 1st gen Adreno 320 (S4 Pro, S4 Prime) and weaker 2nd gen.
But all about benchmarks, the most important is user experience and last but not least is optimization

GrandpaaOvekill said:
Is power vr g6430 any good when campared to adreno gpu's?
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Adreno 405 is only half as power of powervgr g6430
Adreno 405 is middle range gpu
While powervgr g6430, adreno 320, 330, 420 are last year and current flagship gpu
Gpu mostly rated by gflops
http://kyokojap.myweb.hinet.net/gpu_gflops/
And adreno each generation have basic, mid, high power gpu..
Adreno 405 is 4th generation (05 means basic) and can match 3rd Gen mid
Adreno 420 is 4th generation (20 is mid) and can match 3rd Gen high gpu
See gflops of each in that above link
And yes optimization is the most for gaming

The PowerVR G6430 in Zenfone 2 is clocked higher than iphone 5s but lower than ipads and Atom 3570. Its performance is between the Adreno 330 and 430 which is excellent given that it was designed in 2012 and released in 2013. Reclocking it at 640Mhz like its 3570 brother should give a nice run for its price, still technically, it won't be as fast as Adreno 430. However, in real world usage and coupled with a more powerful Intel cpu, it should match it as the CPU is able to extract more GPU power.
If you are really looking at the most powerful mobile GPU, the Nvidia Tegra X1 is at the top, close to twice the performance of the top Qualcomm 810 GPU, Adreno 430. In Antutu, it only scores 75K because the CPU is slower than others like Intel. 75K is still unbreakeable for the moment. Surely, Nvidia and ATI have much more experience in the GPU domain so its not surprising that they are the fastest.
Now, only if ATI partner with Intel to provide us with 14nm goodies :angel:
p.s: To have a broader picture, the Tegra X1 chip is close to twice the performance of a PS3 which is astonishing considering its small size and 2W max power consumption.

Nvidia Shield TV based on Tegra X1 has active cooling system.
So, how it can be compared to phone SoCs?

My bad, I though it was found in the Nvidia Shield tablet. Its its brother the Kepler K1 that is currently used but still at 365 GFlops on nvidia website, it competes with the adreno 430. Note that the PS3 was 192 GFlops.
Interesting fact is that the Tegra X1 actually draws much Less power at idle and slightly less power (1w less than Kepler) at load. Kepler would peak at 11w. Thanks to the new 20nm tech in Maxwell cores efficiency. The Nvidia TV Shield has much more and larger components to power, its also for sure clocked higher.
''According to Nvidia, the power consumption in a tablet powered by Tegra X1 will be on par with Tegra K1. In fact, idle power consumption will be even lower thanks to the various architecture improvements. Tegra K1 was designed to operate at around 5-8 watts, with infrequent peaks up to 11 watts when running stressful benchmarks, so the X1 will be well within the realm of tablet power requirements.'' Source: greenbot.com
Heres this too: http://www.pcper.com/reviews/Processors/NVIDIA-Announces-Tegra-X1-Maxwell-Hits-Ultra-Low-Power
I really like the fact that PC manifacturers enter the mobile market, after all, they were building computer components for ages. This will open the door to more powerfull and cheaper SoCs especially because they have the ability to mass produce and develop the latest tech with many factory plants worldwide.

aziz07 said:
My bad, I though it was found in the Nvidia Shield tablet. Its its brother the Kepler K1 that is currently used but still at 365 GFlops on nvidia website, it competes with the adreno 430. Note that the PS3 was 192 GFlops.
Interesting fact is that the Tegra X1 actually draws much Less power at idle and slightly less power (1w less than Kepler) at load. Kepler would peak at 11w. Thanks to the new 20nm tech in Maxwell cores efficiency. The Nvidia TV Shield has much more and larger components to power, its also for sure clocked higher.
''According to Nvidia, the power consumption in a tablet powered by Tegra X1 will be on par with Tegra K1. In fact, idle power consumption will be even lower thanks to the various architecture improvements. Tegra K1 was designed to operate at around 5-8 watts, with infrequent peaks up to 11 watts when running stressful benchmarks, so the X1 will be well within the realm of tablet power requirements.'' Source: greenbot.com
Heres this too: http://www.pcper.com/reviews/Processors/NVIDIA-Announces-Tegra-X1-Maxwell-Hits-Ultra-Low-Power
I really like the fact that PC manifacturers enter the mobile market, after all, they were building computer components for ages. This will open the door to more powerfull and cheaper SoCs especially because they have the ability to mass produce and develop the latest tech with many factory plants worldwide.
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Maxwell can very power hungry when you clock it all the way up, and X1 has more CUDA cores than K1. X1 has 2 SMM with 256 total while K1 only has 1 SMX with 192.
also, pc manufacturers have always been in the mobile market, or you could even say they started the mobile market. for instance, Apple was a pc manufacturer, steve jobs dedicated 70% of his life to PC rather than phones. samsung makes everything and they have a lot of experience too in making notebooks. so the two most powerful (or most successful) players in the mobile sector are also pc manufacturers, what do you mean by pc manufacturers entering the mobile market?

Its getting off topic but Intel or Apple weren't the first one to build a cell phone. Intel was the first company to build a CPU though. Motorola built the 1st cellphone.
On a sidenote, Apple never really built anything except for aesthetics, it started with IBM building for them after non-success with Synertek for a couple of months. Btw, Samsung does not manifacture PC CPUs or GPUs. Only CPU they build is the Exynos for mobile. I think you misinterpreted the fact the they sell laptops, yes they do, but they are not the one building its major components, its Intel and AMD. They may build its memory components but not CPU or GPU.
You are seeing technology the other way around. If we take, let say, a 2 years old gpu and a new one. The new one can have double the transitor and components count yet still consume less power. Its about architechture efficiency and transistor nm. e.g. the Intel in our Zenfone 2 is built with 3D 22nm transistor which is more power efficient. That's how tech flow.
Anyway, apple is slowly declining, Intel is building their PC segment, replacing IBM, and Samsung is building their next iphone and taking care of the mobile segment. We can already see whats next.
I have been building PCs for over 15 years, its my hobby.
@ mods There should be a ''resolved'' button just like other forums so threads don't get cluttered lol

GrandpaaOvekill said:
Is power vr g6430 any good when campared to adreno gpu's?
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I know benchmarks aren't everything, but GFX gives a good idea of the performance difference between the two. Basically, the PowerVR G6430 is much more powerful than the Adreno 405.
PowerVR G6430:
https://gfxbench.com/result.jsp?ben...VR Rogue G6430&base=device&ff-check-desktop=0
Adreno 405:
https://gfxbench.com/result.jsp?ben...ter=Adreno 405&base=device&ff-check-desktop=0
Here's some videos of a Zenfone 2 with a phone that utilizes the SD 615/Adreno 405 combo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3DcRHXrTHg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYZr53U2Tfk
Hope this helps.

Qualcomm has announced the first ARM-based mobile PCs running Windows 10

Qualcomm has announced that the first ARM-based mobile PCs running Windows 10 are on the way.
Asus, HP, and Lenovo are the first device makers to confirm they’re working on ARM-based Windows 10 computers. And according to Qualcomm, all of those upcoming device will be fanless computers.
Microsoft has been working on a version of Windows 10 that can run on ARM chips, and we’ve known for a while that the Snapdragon 835 would be the first to support that operating system. Unlike past attempts to bring Windows to ARM, the version that will run on these upcoming devices supports Win32 apps as well as Universal Windows Platform apps downloaded from the Windows Store.
That’s thanks to emulation technology which allows Qualcomm’s ARM-based chip to run software that’s been compiled for x86 architecture.
Wondering why you’d want to run Windows 10 on an ARM-based PC? At a time when there’s no shortage of small, cheap, fanless tablets and notebooks with Intel chips, that’s a reasonable question.
But Qualcomm says there are a few advantages to its platform. First, the integrated X16 LTE modem enables support for cellular connections at up to Gigabit speeds.
Second, the company says its chips offer up to 50 percent longer battery life than competing solutions… in some scenarios. The difference isn’t all that great when you’re doing things like editing documents. But Qualcomm says it’s chips enable longer run time while web browsing, video conferencing, watching videos, or playing games.
The difference is even greater in standby mode, where Qualcomm says you get smartphone-like standby time in a laptop-style package. Note that Qualcomm is comparing “connected standby,” though, which is a newish thing for laptops, allowing your laptop to sync data, instantly resume, and generally offer smartphone-like features whether you have an Intel or ARM chip.
Third, Qualcomm’s solution may be able to fit into smaller spaces than computers with Intel or AMD chips. While laptop and tablet motherboards are a lot smaller than they used to be, a PC with a Snapdragon 835 processor can essentially have a phone-sized system board, leaving more room in the case for a battery and other components… or just leading to thinner and lighter Windows computers.
Update: Mobile Geeks has posted a demo video of Windows 10 on ARM from Computex, showing a device running a Win32 app downloaded from the internet as well as Windows Store apps.
https://youtu.be/VeOQp5V7EgM
from: https://liliputing.com/2017/05/asus-hp-lenovo-building-win10-pcs-snapdragon-835-chips.html

There is not enough Micro$oft all over the world that's why Win10 arrives at ARM.

The question I have is will there be a way to side load or hack an older RT tablet to the new Window10 for Arm ? Hell I would even be willing to pay MS $50 is dollars for the ability. Given Win8.1 Update 3 is broken.