Develop Bugs

Dalvik Turbo

So, heard about this from a few sources, but engadget have a hands on video (of sorts) up, heres the link:
http://www.engadget.com/2010/02/17/myriad-dalvik-turbo-hands-on-android-apps-just-got-fast/
They say its only going to be available to manufacturers who pay for it, boo!
Am I right in saying, though, that if we manage to get our hands on it, it can be cooked into a custom ROM? So its just a matter of waiting for someone to get hold of a copy?

I'm totally psyched about this, it always amazed me how much worse the Hero performs when compared to an iPhone 3G with a much slower processor. Turns out Google was the ones screwing us over, imagine that!
As for your question, yes I believe it would be doable. For example I've been told that the performance gain in this video:
youtube.com/watch?v=vgi4O5ix3lU&feature=player_embedded
on a nexus one was done through implementing a JIT compiler which is a part of that myriad dalvik turbo dealio.
And hey, if the N1 guys can do it, why wouldn't the Hero ones be able to? Everyone knows that the real pros dev for the Hero!

yes, this was what I was looking forward to most at the MWC
Hopefully with the help of skillful devs, we could have it on hero!

asterboter said:
I'm totally psyched about this, it always amazed me how much worse the Hero performs when compared to an iPhone 3G with a much slower processor. Turns out Google was the ones screwing us over, imagine that!
As for your question, yes I believe it would be doable. For example I've been told that the performance gain in this video:
youtube.com/watch?v=vgi4O5ix3lU&feature=player_embedded
on a nexus one was done through implementing a JIT compiler which is a part of that myriad dalvik turbo dealio.
And hey, if the N1 guys can do it, why wouldn't the Hero ones be able to? Everyone knows that the real pros dev for the Hero!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
In the video they are using the Google JIT as far as i know?:
http://groups.google.com/group/andr...5636f5f532/662b32b98d9b9bba?#662b32b98d9b9bba
http://groups.google.com/group/0xlab-devel/browse_thread/thread/1edef26f4e5b7427
This is different from the commercial Myriad versio (Dalvik Turbo). Google is actively investing in the JIT system:
http://code.google.com/events/io/2010/sessions/jit-compiler-androids-dalvik-vm.html

Yes of course I realize there's a difference, I was merely comparing the implementation of that jit and dalvik turbo (which, I believe, also includes a jit compiler). Though I am no dev so don't take my word for it, but I am hopeful
And even if dalvik turbo can't be implemented, that jit from the video undoubtedly should be possible, which should result in a performance boost, which really is all that we're after, right?

Yeah, we're on the same page for sure.. It just is a matter which technique is available and stable first and ask some cook to implement it into a rom. It would be sweet to run 2.1 with JIT on the hero faster then optimized 1.5 we run now..

Hrrrm.... The iphone doesn't have a slower processor. Less mhz, yes, but different instruction set. It's like comparing the 550mhz in the Droid/Milestone to the 528mhz in the Hero. The Droid one is roughly 1.8times faster, even at less mhz.
And then there is the OS itself. The iphone OS is desigend for just that one device and for exactly those functions. The apps run native, while under google they run in a Java VM environment. That makes compatible even on other devices with other processors.
You simply can't compare the two.

dipje said:
Hrrrm.... The iphone doesn't have a slower processor. Less mhz, yes, but different instruction set. It's like comparing the 550mhz in the Droid/Milestone to the 528mhz in the Hero. The Droid one is roughly 1.8times faster, even at less mhz.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Erhhhmmm, the Samsung processor in the iPhone 3G uses a ARM11 core, same as the Qualcomm processor in the Hero, and uses the same instruction set. Whilst both processors are SoCs from different manufacturers you can broadly compare the two processors computing power on a clock-for-clock basis because they share the same processor core.
The iPhone 3GS however, uses an ARM Cortex-A8 core, which is clock-for-clock a fair bit faster than anything based on an ARM11 core. See here for further detail.
Regards,
Dave

foxmeister said:
Erhhhmmm, the Samsung processor in the iPhone 3G uses a ARM11 core
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ahh! Thanks. 'Did not know that'. Thought it was a newer ARM set.
But my point still stands, you can't compare the performance of the CPU's because the way apps are compiled and work (and the OS itself) are way to different.
But the iphone 3g still has a (somewhat) dedicated GPU chip in it, right?

dipje said:
But the iphone 3g still has a (somewhat) dedicated GPU chip in it, right?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There's a PowerVR MBX-Lite accelerator in the iPhone 3G, which is part of the Samsung SoC (as opposed to a physically separate GPU).
However, similarly, the Qualcomm MSM7200 SoC in the Hero has an Imageon accelerator (formally an ATI/AMD part, but Qualcomm bought the Imageon line).
I've no idea which is supposed to be faster though.
Regards,
Dave

Please, do not forget at these comparisons between iPhone OS and Android,
the iPhone is monotasking.
If you jailbreak your iPhone and run more apps then one iwht the backgrounder app, the speed feeled speed is slower than the Hero speed.
Otherwise also, the 3 months I used my iPhone I found, the it weas getting slower and slower from week to week....

Otherwise also, the 3 months I used my iPhone I found, the it weas getting slower and slower from week to week....[/QUOTE]
+1 to that....
And don't forget minor benefits of the firmware updates....

WP7 minimum requirements

WP7 calls for a minimum of 1ghz processor.
That does make me think - how come the competition is able to provide smooth UI with 600mhz phones? ie. android / iphone / palm pre?
Is the WP7 so much processor hungry? that is calling for trouble...
your thoughts please.

The demo shown was using non-final build of the OS.
Something like BETA version, not yet final version.
There you would expect: bugs, glitch, errors, etc.
But still, it is quite impressive.
We can only judge the "perfectness" of the OS later when it has been "OFFICIALLY" released.

chiks19018 said:
WP7 calls for a minimum of 1ghz processor.
That does make me think - how come the competition is able to provide smooth UI with 600mhz phones? ie. android / iphone / palm pre?
Is the WP7 so much processor hungry? that is calling for trouble...
your thoughts please.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's about more than just the basic UI. Lots of background stuff going on. All those live tiles need CPU power to populate. The Zune HD with a similar UI is only 600mhz. Microsoft is just setting the bar high so that the entire device is snappy. Compare the experience of an Android phone on a Snapdragon to that of a lesser CPU and there's a big speed difference. Microsoft is just demanding the best and it gives them more room to grow. If they set the bar low, the devices will be obsolete much sooner. Besides, faster stuff will likely be out by the end of the year and 1ghz will be somewhat commonplace. Apple's iPad is 1ghz and if they release an updated iPhone later this year I'd bet it will be 1ghz as well.

who's to say it needs all 1GHz? i think they're doing a great thing by setting that as minimum. our devices would be up to date much longer or at least it will feel that way. It's a good sign for those who don't like upgrading every year, no?
Besides, the Nexus One is 1ghz.... Supersonic will probably be 1ghz..... Everything will be 1ghz by the time wp7 comes out, if not more.

RustyGrom said:
Microsoft is just setting the bar high so that the entire device is snappy. Compare the experience of an Android phone on a Snapdragon to that of a lesser CPU and there's a big speed difference. Microsoft is just demanding the best and it gives them more room to grow. If they set the bar low, the devices will be obsolete much sooner. Besides, faster stuff will likely be out by the end of the year and 1ghz will be somewhat commonplace. Apple's iPad is 1ghz and if they release an updated iPhone later this year I'd bet it will be 1ghz as well.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What he said. It's set because it's very doable.. at the end of this year, which manufacturer would expect a new device to be competitive using an old processor? Setting a bare minimum as the minimum would mean that you have 7 Series phones which perform much crappier than others.. a situation they want to avoid.
Plus it's mobile XBox.

My prediction:
Touch HD3
Qualcomm Dual Core 1.5 GHz Snapdragon processor
4.3" OLED Capacitive screen WVGA 800x480
No hardware keyboard
5 MP Camera with auto-focus and flash
aGPS
FM Radio
Windows Phone 7 Series
...

gogol said:
My prediction:
Touch HD3
Qualcomm Dual Core 1.5 GHz Snapdragon processor
4.3" OLED Capacitive screen WVGA 800x480
No hardware keyboard
5 MP Camera with auto-focus and flash
aGPS
FM Radio
Windows Phone 7 Series
...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
the new qualcomm 1.5 ghz chip is not meant for mobile devices till now it is used for mini notebooks the one which will be avaliable for devices is the 1.3 ghz version same specifications as the 1ghz processor but with 45 nm technology( uses less power ) same graphics performance but with 300 mhz over clock speed nearly same performance but less power consumption

Where does it say 1GHz is required? Right: Nowhere.
An ARMv7 processor is required. iPhone/Pre/Droid all have ARMv7 processors.

freyberry said:
Where does it say 1GHz is required? Right: Nowhere.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i think 1ghz is enough for a mobile os (the win xp runs on 500mhz processor and on 128 of ram )

It's not all about the clock rate. An ARMv7 processor at 500MHz is about twice as fast as an ARMv6 processor at the same clock speed.
(that's why the iPhone 3GS is so much faster than the iPhone 3G, despite only having 200Mhz more)
Windows XP doesn't run on ARM processors at all.

freyberry said:
Where does it say 1GHz is required? Right: Nowhere.
An ARMv7 processor is required. iPhone/Pre/Droid all have ARMv7 processors.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Microsoft said that Qualcomm was the only silicon provider right now.
Qualcomm said they are pleased that their Snapdragon CPU has been chosen for WP7.
Snapdragon runs at 1ghz+.
Therefore, in effect, the minimum CPU is 1ghz.

chiks19018 said:
WP7 calls for a minimum of 1ghz processor.
That does make me think - how come the competition is able to provide smooth UI with 600mhz phones? ie. android / iphone / palm pre?
Is the WP7 so much processor hungry? that is calling for trouble...
your thoughts please.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well I'm sure they could, but Microsoft wants there to be very high minimum specs that developers can expect so that all apps can take advantage of the hardware to its full extent. An example would be the way WinMo apps are now. Most 3D apps aren't very good because the minimum of what developers can expect in a device isn't very high; thus, they have have to make it use as little resources as possible.

Based on what I'm hearing most current 6.X phones will be unsupported unless they pack a Dragoon. I hope the scorpion CPU is used in a win7 phone.

RustyGrom said:
It's about more than just the basic UI. Lots of background stuff going on. All those live tiles need CPU power to populate. The Zune HD with a similar UI is only 600mhz. Microsoft is just setting the bar high so that the entire device is snappy. Compare the experience of an Android phone on a Snapdragon to that of a lesser CPU and there's a big speed difference. Microsoft is just demanding the best and it gives them more room to grow. If they set the bar low, the devices will be obsolete much sooner. Besides, faster stuff will likely be out by the end of the year and 1ghz will be somewhat commonplace. Apple's iPad is 1ghz and if they release an updated iPhone later this year I'd bet it will be 1ghz as well.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yep, I would agree this is their plan as well. Personally, I would like to have phone stay pretty current within the 2 year contract I have to sign to get one at a fair price....
Insurance is mandatory on this one...

Ignore this post

RustyGrom said:
Microsoft said that Qualcomm was the only silicon provider right now.
Qualcomm said they are pleased that their Snapdragon CPU has been chosen for WP7.
Snapdragon runs at 1ghz+.
Therefore, in effect, the minimum CPU is 1ghz.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Snapdragon can run at lower clock rates as well (e.g. 768Mhz in the Acer Liquid).
They also have slower processors besides Snapdragon (though I don't know whether the 7227 is ARMv7, I don't care about low end devices ).

freyberry said:
Snapdragon can run at lower clock rates as well (e.g. 768Mhz in the Acer Liquid).
They also have slower processors besides Snapdragon (though I don't know whether the 7227 is ARMv7, I don't care about low end devices ).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Any CPU can be underclocked. The "normal" speed for Snapdragons is 1ghz.
Qualcomm specifically mentioned that the Snapdragon had been chosen for WP7.

How about the famous HTC graphic acceleration driver?
I hope this time there will be no more missing graphics driver for WP7!

gogol said:
How about the famous HTC graphic acceleration driver?
I hope this time there will be no more missing graphics driver for WP7!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Microsoft said they're providing the drivers for these phones, I think

EDIT: Never mind.

Graphics Processor

Does the new hardware call for a graphics processor?
I know that Steve Jobs never sells a piece of hardware without a dedicated graphics processor, such as in the iPhone (PowerVR MBX-Lite graphics processor), or the Macbook (NVIDIA GeForce 9600M GT).
In windows machines, it is always an after-thought.

Snapdragon includes a perfectly reasonable graphics chip.

It just needs to be utilized with good drivers.

Shasarak said:
Snapdragon includes a perfectly reasonable graphics chip.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
so no dedicated graphics processor?
Looks like iphone will still rule.

chiks19018 said:
so no dedicated graphics processor?
Looks like iphone will still rule.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Like everything else, we'll have to wait for MIX. But with their massive push into gaming and focus on XNA, I have no doubt that the graphics capability will be at least as good as if not light years ahead of iPhone.

RustyGrom said:
Like everything else, we'll have to wait for MIX. But with their massive push into gaming and focus on XNA, I have no doubt that the graphics capability will be at least as good as if not light years ahead of iPhone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I sure do hope. But history says otherwise. MS never pushed for a graphics card with any of it's products as a "required" item. If the same happens here and Apple develops a new iphone 4gs with an even more powerful processor and as usual combine a dedicated graphics processor, then WP7 will be in the same boat as now.

chiks19018 said:
I sure do hope. But history says otherwise. MS never pushed for a graphics card with any of it's products as a "required" item. If the same happens here and Apple develops a new iphone 4gs with an even more powerful processor and as usual combine a dedicated graphics processor, then WP7 will be in the same boat as now.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What part of WP7 is like WM6? It's entirely different. Microsoft had practically no hardware requirements before, now they're being super strict. Gaming is a huge portion of their focus. We should know more next week at GDC. Besides, Snapdragon includes full 3d acceleration. There's no need for a discrete graphics chip as far as I'm aware.

Shasarak said:
Snapdragon includes a perfectly reasonable graphics chip.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
chiks19018 said:
so no dedicated graphics processor?
Looks like iphone will still rule.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What?! No, I said Snapdragon includes a perfectly reasonable graphics chip. How on Earth did you interpret that as meaning the exact opposite of what I said???
Snapdragon is not just a CPU. Snapdragon is a chipset, an entire mobile phone platform that consists of several separate chips. One of them is the CPU. Another of them is a graphics chip (or, if you prefer to phrase it that way, a "dedicated graphics processor") made by ATI/AMD. Honestly, have you never seen the Electopia demo running on a Snapdragon phone? The graphics are really quite impressive.
Yes, the Snapdragon GPU is somewhat less powerful than the one in the iPhone 3GS, but it's not an order of magnitude difference, and the faster CPU in Snapdragon (coupled with improved NEON instructions) somewhat compensates. Certainly the Snapdragon GPU is way more powerful than the one included with MSM72xx, and even that can run Xtrakt quite happily; it's miles ahead of the one in the iPhone 3G, too.

Shasarak said:
What?! No, I said Snapdragon includes a perfectly reasonable graphics chip. How on Earth did you interpret that as meaning the exact opposite of what I said???
Snapdragon is not just a CPU. Snapdragon is a chipset, an entire mobile phone platform that consists of several separate chips. One of them is the CPU. Another of them is a graphics chip (or, if you prefer to phrase it that way, a "dedicated graphics processor") made by ATI/AMD. Honestly, have you never seen the Electopia demo running on a Snapdragon phone? The graphics are really quite impressive.
Yes, the Snapdragon GPU is somewhat less powerful than the one in the iPhone 3GS, but it's not an order of magnitude difference, and the faster CPU in Snapdragon (coupled with improved NEON instructions) somewhat compensates. Certainly the Snapdragon GPU is way more powerful than the one included with MSM72xx, and even that can run Xtrakt quite happily; it's miles ahead of the one in the iPhone 3G, too.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And thats for qsd8250.
Newer generation of snapdragon(msm8xxx and dual core QSD8672) has 4x greater performance than the snapdragon1. Don't know how's msm7x30 graphics performance. Besides we don't know which snapdragon chip will be used in windows phones.
It could either be qsd8650a which is 30% faster than the one used in HD2 or it could be the new msm7x30 or it could even be the high end msm8xxx which supports 1,3Ghz CPU, 1080p video and 4x faster GPU - hopefully it won't be qsd8250 which is manufactured at 65nm but something newer at 45nm. Power efficiency is very important, besides those newer chips just like tegra should be able to shutdown unused parts to minimize power consumption.

Out of curiosity - What's stopping WP7s manufacturers from using Tegra chips? I know Microsoft is working closely with Qualcomm, but does that automatically disqualify Nvidia as a supplier?
Regards

Silverdragondk said:
Out of curiosity - What's stopping WP7s manufacturers from using Tegra chips? I know Microsoft is working closely with Qualcomm, but does that automatically disqualify Nvidia as a supplier?
Regards
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well MS clearly stated that qualcomm is first chip supplier for Windows Phones. Probably in the future they will allow tegra, omap and probably samsung chips too.
For now we are stuck with snapdragon which isn't that bad IMO.

Silverdragondk said:
Out of curiosity - What's stopping WP7s manufacturers from using Tegra chips? I know Microsoft is working closely with Qualcomm, but does that automatically disqualify Nvidia as a supplier?
Regards
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Drivers. MS isn't giving the OEMs as much control over the lower level OS and is developing all of the drivers themselves. No more will we have the problem of HTC deciding that 3d drivers aren't needed.

Wishmaster89 said:
And thats for qsd8250.
Newer generation of snapdragon(msm8xxx and dual core QSD8672) has 4x greater performance than the snapdragon1. Don't know how's msm7x30 graphics performance. Besides we don't know which snapdragon chip will be used in windows phones.
It could either be qsd8650a which is 30% faster than the one used in HD2 or it could be the new msm7x30 or it could even be the high end msm8xxx which supports 1,3Ghz CPU, 1080p video and 4x faster GPU - hopefully it won't be qsd8250 which is manufactured at 65nm but something newer at 45nm. Power efficiency is very important, besides those newer chips just like tegra should be able to shutdown unused parts to minimize power consumption.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It will be sick if they annouce the msm8xxx being required and that's why HD2 isn't supported. I'd take that trade off.

Wishmaster89 said:
And thats for qsd8250.
Newer generation of snapdragon(msm8xxx and dual core QSD8672) has 4x greater performance than the snapdragon1. Don't know how's msm7x30 graphics performance. Besides we don't know which snapdragon chip will be used in windows phones.
It could either be qsd8650a which is 30% faster than the one used in HD2 or it could be the new msm7x30 or it could even be the high end msm8xxx which supports 1,3Ghz CPU, 1080p video and 4x faster GPU - hopefully it won't be qsd8250 which is manufactured at 65nm but something newer at 45nm. Power efficiency is very important, besides those newer chips just like tegra should be able to shutdown unused parts to minimize power consumption.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not all Snapdragon variants are actually intended to be used in phones. Most of the more powerful ones will only ever end up in netbooks and devices like that.
Wishmaster89 said:
Well MS clearly stated that qualcomm is first chip supplier for Windows Phones. Probably in the future they will allow tegra, omap and probably samsung chips too.
For now we are stuck with snapdragon which isn't that bad IMO.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The decision to exclude Samsung processors surprised me a bit. Samsung's "Hummingbird" CPU is easily the equal of the current generation Snapdragon, and Samsung has been a major supporter of Windows Mobile in the past. I guess MS wanted to limit itself to writing drivers for just one platform - allowing Samsung or OMAP processors would mean also allowing other GPUs, other GPS and Bluetooth hardware, etc.

Shasarak said:
The decision to exclude Samsung processors surprised me a bit. Samsung's "Hummingbird" CPU is easily the equal of the current generation Snapdragon, and Samsung has been a major supporter of Windows Mobile in the past. I guess MS wanted to limit itself to writing drivers for just one platform - allowing Samsung or OMAP processors would mean also allowing other GPUs, other GPS and Bluetooth hardware, etc.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's always sounded to me like they just picked one to launch with and will support others going forward. Writing drivers and testing other platforms at this point doesn't really give a good bang for the buck.
We should know on the 10th (the first GDC windows phone sessions). I would think the graphics capability would be something they would share there. But then again, they've shown an astounding ability to just say "wait for MIX" so far so they very well could keep that up.
Developing Games for Windows Phone 7 Series
Speaker: Michael Klucher
Time: 1:15-2:15pm
The future of Windows Phone has never looked better. With the release of Windows Phone 7 Series, game developers will be able to create amazing content rapidly. This talk outlines the basic framework for games, presents Windows Phone 7 Series device characteristics, and provides and overview of game development on the phone.
High Performance 3D Games on Windows Phone 7 Series
Speaker: Tomas Vykruta & Shawn Hargreaves
Time: 2:30-3:30pm
Windows Phone 7 Series is a highly capable platform for game development. This talk covers 3D game development on Windows Phone 7 Series with an emphasis on the unique characteristics of the platform. The talk also focuses on optimizing high-performance games for the platform, to help developers squeeze out every last drop of performance.
Development and Debugging Tools for Windows Phone 7 Series
Speaker: Cullen Waters
Time: 3:45pm-4:45pm
This talk discusses the basic tools available to game developers on Windows Phone 7 Series, including debugging, emulation, and performance tools. The talk places special emphasis on best practices for performance and profiling tools that can be used to optimize games for Windows Phone 7 Series.
Bringing the Best of Xbox LIVE to Windows Phone 7 Series
Speaker: Adam Schaeffer
Time: 5:00-6:00pm
The Xbox LIVE service is going mobile! With Windows Phone 7 Series, core features such as Achievements, Leaderboards, and game invites will be available to games on Windows Phone 7 Series devices. This talk covers the basics of the services available and how they can be used to enable core Xbox LIVE functionality in games. In addition, this talk will present best practices for connecting Windows Phone 7 Series games to back-end servers.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

I imagine that they want WP7 to be as smooth and hitch-free as possible to start out with. That means not allowing for any unknown variables such as different hardware, drivers, software.
It's the same for Iphone or any of the console game machines. It's one piece of hardware that is always the same making it easier to plan things for and develop things for. Which ends up meaning a higher perception of quality from the consumers due to lack of glitches and crashes.
Hence Apple's commercials saying how often PCs crash and stuff. They crash because PCs have way more variables as far as hardware and drivers than Macs have making many more incompatibilities.
Microsoft will probably allow other hardware once WP7 has a good name going in the consumers eyes.

Shasarak said:
Not all Snapdragon variants are actually intended to be used in phones. Most of the more powerful ones will only ever end up in netbooks and devices like that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You're right. QSD8672 is targeted at smartbooks but msm8xxx is designed to power both smarphones and smartbooks. Besides OMAP4 and tegra2 are powerful but still we can expect smartphones based on those platforms next year.
The decision to exclude Samsung processors surprised me a bit. Samsung's "Hummingbird" CPU is easily the equal of the current generation Snapdragon, and Samsung has been a major supporter of Windows Mobile in the past. I guess MS wanted to limit itself to writing drivers for just one platform - allowing Samsung or OMAP processors would mean also allowing other GPUs, other GPS and Bluetooth hardware, etc.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think so too. More hardware platforms mean more work to do. So I think that support for other hardware platforms will come after they'll finish V1 of WP7 - this way they will just have to port complete full OS from snapdragon to other platform.

Shasarak said:
What?! No, I said Snapdragon includes a perfectly reasonable graphics chip. How on Earth did you interpret that as meaning the exact opposite of what I said???
Snapdragon is not just a CPU. Snapdragon is a chipset, an entire mobile phone platform that consists of several separate chips. One of them is the CPU. Another of them is a graphics chip (or, if you prefer to phrase it that way, a "dedicated graphics processor") made by ATI/AMD. Honestly, have you never seen the Electopia demo running on a Snapdragon phone? The graphics are really quite impressive.
Yes, the Snapdragon GPU is somewhat less powerful than the one in the iPhone 3GS, but it's not an order of magnitude difference, and the faster CPU in Snapdragon (coupled with improved NEON instructions) somewhat compensates. Certainly the Snapdragon GPU is way more powerful than the one included with MSM72xx, and even that can run Xtrakt quite happily; it's miles ahead of the one in the iPhone 3G, too.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
my bad. I thought snapdragon is a processor.

Is there any speculation or news on second-gen phones after the first batch?

So,
I'm waiting for the Dell Venue Pro to be released, but it keeps getting delayed...
I'm wondering if some manufactureres would be releasing new phones close to the release of the dvp, thuss, maybe there would be some better phones by then...?
Anyone read something interesting?

quinstar said:
So,
I'm waiting for the Dell Venue Pro to be released, but it keeps getting delayed...
I'm wondering if some manufactureres would be releasing new phones close to the release of the dvp, thuss, maybe there would be some better phones by then...?
Anyone read something interesting?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's truly an interesting question for one reason: MS will be doing updating and all phones are suppose to be similar hardware wise...to avoid fragmentation. I believe, with the exception of screen types and camera res, that every WP7 phone currently released, and likely the CDMA versions included, use the same processing hardware.
The reason this is interesting is because, how will MS handle hardware evolution. These WP7 phones certainly can't remain the same forever. Eventually there will be 1.5GHz CPUs and higher res screens. How will MS handle incorporating phones equipped with higher speed CPUs and higher res screens into WP7 filled with the current tech. The whole point of WP7 is keep things level across the board. A current 1GHz SnapDragon certainly would not be level with a 1.5 or 2GHz FlamingLizard dual core CPU.

MartyLK said:
That's truly an interesting question for one reason: MS will be doing updating and all phones are suppose to be similar hardware wise...to avoid fragmentation. I believe, with the exception of screen types and camera res, that every WP7 phone currently released, and likely the CDMA versions included, use the same processing hardware.
The reason this is interesting is because, how will MS handle hardware evolution. These WP7 phones certainly can't remain the same forever. Eventually there will be 1.5GHz CPUs and higher res screens. How will MS handle incorporating phones equipped with higher speed CPUs and higher res screens into WP7 filled with the current tech. The whole point of WP7 is keep things level across the board. A current 1GHz SnapDragon certainly would not be level with a 1.5 or 2GHz FlamingDragon dual core CPU.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Windows Phone 8 in a year?

It'll be like games consoles, a new one every 5 years or so. After all, with the OS being as fast as it is on 1GHz processors, nobody cares about 1.5GHz ones. Except geeks.

As a geek, I can say that I would insta-buy a FlamingLizard device. That name is just pure awesome.
Seriously though, certain hardware was specified because MS is providing the correct drivers to use that hardware correctly (glowers @ HTC). When new stuff hits, MS will pick a new item they like, make drivers for it, and tell OEM's what to use, just like they've done with the current line. MS has way too much invested in WP7 to let it get relegated to second-rate hardware. Even if Metro doesn't ask for a huge level of processing power, MS is heavily pushing live integration, and I believe that they will be all over stuffing powerful processors into phones in order to sell them as gaming platforms.

MS could go apples way.
Every year in november for example, ms could allow to use higher hardware.
Like: iphone 2g, 3g, 3gs, 4
And ms give us a wp7 version for each generation of wp7 phones

i think the best way for MS to give the hardware manufacturers more capabilities would be to set up benchmarking for all the different components. have the current components as the benchmark for example, and if they want to change say the CPU/GPU, it has to outperform the current benchmark. this way, it becomes a lot more like Android in the manufacturers can make the devices the way they'd like using the parts they'd like.
the only issue is, MS would need to be involved in creating every driver for every different component. i think at present it's quite restricted down to particular components so that you get a good boot up time and running experience, because there isn't redundant/generic drivers on the phone.

As far as I know the requirements aren't as specific as what people are saying, but more "Minimum Requirements"
From what I can remember it's something along the lines of
AT LEAST a 1ghz Processor
AT LEAST a 3.5" Screen
AT LEAST 8Gb Storage
etc etc.
So new devices can come out with faster processors, they wont though... Manufacturers will milk the cheapest hardware for as long as they can. I would expect a rehash of requirements each year.
The whole point of it all isn't really to keep things level, it's to make sure that underpowered devices aren't released that run the OS like crap (Eg Wildfire, Tattoo) and also so that devices aren't released running a version of the OS that's over a year old (Xperia X10)

yeah thats what I was wondering. Those were the minimum requirements not specific reqs as people assume. The hardware manufacturers just stuck to those to save costs. I'm sure if MS did not have these then they would have used even lower end crap, thus destroying any chance WP7 has of attaining success.

FL5 said:
As a geek, I can say that I would insta-buy a FlamingLizard device. That name is just pure awesome.
Seriously though, certain hardware was specified because MS is providing the correct drivers to use that hardware correctly (glowers @ HTC). When new stuff hits, MS will pick a new item they like, make drivers for it, and tell OEM's what to use, just like they've done with the current line. MS has way too much invested in WP7 to let it get relegated to second-rate hardware. Even if Metro doesn't ask for a huge level of processing power, MS is heavily pushing live integration, and I believe that they will be all over stuffing powerful processors into phones in order to sell them as gaming platforms.
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Click to collapse
+1 for the flaminglizard dual core cpu. or even blazedmonkey dual core cpu. or bullsballz dual core cpu. so long as it's dual core, i'll buy it. hell, i might even buy it if it ran windows, then dump a android rom on it and have a flaming-dog-ballz rooted/ unlocked dual core cpu smash phone.
HA

ohgood said:
+1 for the flaminglizard dual core cpu. or even blazedmonkey dual core cpu. or bullsballz dual core cpu. so long as it's dual core, i'll buy it. hell, i might even buy it if it ran windows, then dump a android rom on it and have a flaming-dog-ballz rooted/ unlocked dual core cpu smash phone.
HA
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
LMAO...funny stuff!

cbebop7 said:
yeah thats what I was wondering. Those were the minimum requirements not specific reqs as people assume. The hardware manufacturers just stuck to those to save costs. I'm sure if MS did not have these then they would have used even lower end crap, thus destroying any chance WP7 has of attaining success.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think what certainly would have happened, at least with HTC is they would have 1 premier device, probably the HD7 in it's current iteration. The rest of the devices would then go from Bad to Absolute ****. The Trophy or Mozart would probably have a smaller screen and a severely slow processor by today's standards.
What will happen eventually is someone will realise that the majority of the handsets are the same and release something with better specs than the current bunch in an attempt to stand out from the crowd. My guess is it will be LG

Here's my take on it.
First half of 2011:
* Chassis 2 handsets start appearing, being technically the same as launch devices.
Come November 2011:
* WP8 devices come consisting of second or third gen snapdragons and/or introduce another SoC like Hummingbird or OMAP.
* Chassis 3 handsets also start appearing (tablets or gaming style deisgn like PSPhone maybe?)
My wishes:
* Resolution bump for tablets and smartphones
* Hero phone introduced by Microsoft (much like the Nexus series), Zune/xbox phone anyone?
edit: looks like WP8 will actually be coming out end of 2012 http://pocketnow.com/windows-phone/windows-phone-7-mango-rumors

[INFO] Intel's pushing for Android ...

The following article is not even remotely related to E4GT (or Samsung for that matter) but I found it very interesting... There's a strong possibility of Intel dominating all mobile processors starting 2014 - 2015 ...
http://liliputing.com/2012/04/intel-pushes-atom-chip-for-android-devices.html
EDIT: I just noticed that the website (or maybe the user) removed the second post that I copied below.
You can skip the actual article, but read the comments (from user CyberGusa) :
While as for what advantages Intel can start to offer, it's what Chippy from UMPCPortal would call High Dynamic Range Computing (HDRC). Unlike ARM, Intel is fully capable of scaling from the mobile range to the full desktop range.
This will be especially true if Windows 8 is successful, as x86 can offer legacy support where ARM can't, and can provide the higher range performance that ARM is still many years away from being able to provide as their high end next gen offerings will only rival the present gen Intel ATOMs.
MS in particular is patenting a way to easily switch between CPU's when docking. So could make a Windows system literally scale from mobile to laptop and even desktop by just docking it.
The closest ARM based devices will get to this scaling is switching from a ARM to higher end Intel or AMD chip when docked but this will also involve switching from a mobile OS to a desktop one to fully take advantage of the switch.
Though Google is making progress towards making Android a more desktop friendly OS, like with Webtop and similar UI optimizations that take over when docked that would allow Android to take advantage of such scaling but would still be more limited than switching to a true desktop OS that isn't designed with the limits that a mobile OS will have to deal with no matter how the UI is altered and optimized,
Failure of Windows 8 though could well give ARM the advantage.
Intel though is hedging its bets with support for Android and of course the Tizen project. They already bought a company last year that provides them the option to easily switch between two OS instantly, without rebooting.
While they are compensating for what advantages ARM has over them by keeping ahead of the manufacturing shrink curve by at least a year.
So while ARM is heading towards 32 and 28nm productions, Intel is heading toward 22nm and that combined with the architectural updates could potentially start giving Intel the edge.
Mind also that there have been problems with the 28nm production and Intel has strategically not helped ARM with this issue. So time table for many gives them limited time for market penetration before Intel will be able to come out with their own 22nm chips and 14nm is scheduled for 2014.
Also consider that it's not the general consumer market at stake here but also the embedded and server markets, which could give Intel more of a advantage considering that x86 hardware can run pretty much any OS but ARM is still limited to OS already optimized for it.
While ARM is also depending on Windows 8 being a success to provide it a mainstream desktop OS to provide the ability to start competing in the traditional PC markets, and thus would also be negatively effected if Windows 8 fails.
So while ARM is looking good for the rest of this year, it remains to be seen if that will remain true next year and Intel should never be underestimated.
More comments from the same user (CyberGusa):
Right now Intel only has dual core in their higher end ATOM lineup and up to 8 cores for the server market, neither of which are competing with ARM yet.
The upcoming dual core Medfield is mainly just planned for the Tablet market and shouldn't effect the Smart Phone market.
So the main advantage of ARM solutions right now is that they're much more mainstream for the mobile market, with Intel only beginning to compete for the first time. Much like how Nvidia when they first introduced the Tegra and shows slow beginnings are not indicative of how they will do in a year or two.
While as already mentioned the Intel ATOM's are still using pretty much the same architecture as when it was first introduced to the market in 2008. This is like comparing the Cortex A15 to the older Cortex A8 based ARM chips and having the Cortex A8 solution still holds its own.
So having it even come in the same ball park is actually a testament to how much ARM still has to catch up for the higher performance range they're only now entering.
Mind beating the ATOM isn't really hard, as that's the bottom of Intel's chip offerings, with the Core i-Series offering multiples times better performance that ARM is still years away from even getting close to.
While the next gen ATOM's coming out next year are Intel's equivalent of a A15 update to the ATOM. Introducing many of the technology they developed for Ivy Bridge to the ATOM.
Like Intel's Tri-Gate Transistors, a HD 4000 based GMA, putting the entire lineup under SoC, offering a wider range of processor configurations, finally adding Out Of Order Processing to the ATOM, among many other improvements.
While ARM manufacturers are having problems, the delay in moving to 28nm being the most outstanding right now, which is why many are still opting for 32nm. Especially those who have yet to deal with the increased problem of power leakage as they continue to shrink the FAB.
Even Apple is still on 45nm with their latest iPad and had to increase the battery size by 70% to compensate for the increased power consumption of the retina display and the quad core GPU's requires.
So they may up their game but it's going to get harder for them here on out as ARM was designed for low power and low performance and need time to evolve to be able to apply itself to higher end applications.
While Intel already dominates the higher end and just wants to start penetrating into the lower end and that's going to be arguably easier for them to do than for ARM to keep on increasing its performance.
Mind, ARM is still a 32bit architecture and only recently introduced designs for 64bit. This means they're still years away from going fully 64bit and for now we're only going to see enhancements like 64bit memory management.
While it's not easy to continue providing increasing performance and still keep costs and power consumption low. Also ARM customizations has the down side of increased hardware fragmentation.
So it's not like Intel doesn't stand a chance, it's just going to take awhile to see if they can really start competing in the mobile market or have to stay in the higher end PC market.
Comment as you see fit, and keep in mind these are just opinions, not facts !!!

First...
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Even if Intel is not on top by then they will make sure the bar is set high. Good read.
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Good read. If Intel is truly interested in advancing the mobile field, I can see them doing big things in the future. At the very least, the competition they bring to the market will keep everyone else on their toes.
Transmission sent from a Galaxy S II, CODENAME style.

intel will show other processor companies how its done. their technology is quality when compared to AMD. but AMD tries to be more innovative. in the end i went with expensive intel to build my computer

Competition premotes innovation. I have read that the next few generations of processors are already developed but they only release one at a time to guarantee profits and to not outrun what they have. So, with more chips in competition this will help us see better processors faster. It will also lower cost. So, a phone might cost the same 4 years from now instead of more. I personally think it is a great idea. Even if there chips weren't much better they still will help. It is a win win for the consumer. Great article!
Sent from Team KC's founding member HTC Evo 4G LTE.

Oh and Intel is known for making low battery consumption processors. Can't wait for that by them making small chips only nanometers big
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kc_exactly said:
Competition premotes innovation. I have read that the next few generations of processors are already developed but they only release one at a time to guarantee profits and to not outrun what they have. So, with more chips in competition this will help us see better processors faster. It will also lower cost. So, a phone might cost the same 4 years from now instead of more. I personally think it is a great idea. Even if there chips weren't much better they still will help. It is a win win for the consumer. Great article!
Sent from Team KC's founding member HTC Evo 4G LTE.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
In my personal opinion, I think Intel does make outstanding processors, but their marketing skills are not customer friendly. Take for example the numerous options for the speed of a processor they sell...
let's say the new processor X came out with speeds of 1.6 GHz, and then 3 months later, they come out with the same processor X but with improved speeds of 2.2 GHz at 40% increased cost... and after another 3 months they release the Black Edition processor X with the ultimate speed of 2.4 GHz at double and even triple the price of the original !!!
Do you honestly think they will redesign the production line just to make the new and improved Black Edition processor X ??? I don't think so... In my opinion, they're probably selling the exact same processor X from the beginning to the end, but they slow down the speed in the early versions and they gradually release to full potential ... In this way, they sell the same processor (which cuts down the design/engineering and production costs) yet they stay very profitable and ahead of the market curve by announcing an improved product every 3 months !!!
In other words, the same processor X will sell as follows:
1st release) Speed minus 40% (no overclock) ... "Regular" price
2nd release) Speed minus 30% (no overclock) ... "Regular" price + 15%
...................................................................................
...................................................................................
Black Edition) Speed and overclock unlocked ... "Regular" price + 300%
The worst thing they ever did (starting with Core processors, such as i3, i5...) was to incorporate the video card into the processor, and to lock out other video card vendors from the system ... In this way, they sell the processor AND the video card at the same time, and there's no more competition at the same time !!! They call this bull **** integration something like "system on a chip" for better power consumption ... WHEN WAS THE FIRST TIME ANYONE LOOKED FORWARD TO INSTALLING AND BENCHMARKING INTEL VIDEO CARDS IN THEIR COMPUTERS ??? Why do you think AMD bought ATI video card manufacturer ?
And you think it wouldn't get any worst ? Recently Intel started to sell their TOP OF THE LINE PROCESSORS without their video integrated cards ... That means that us, the consumers, have to PAY EXTRA FOR LESS PRODUCT just to get away from their marketing schemes !!!
In the end, we probably pay "regular" price when processor X is introduced, then it's all profits from there on for Intel.
Now back to cell phones ... think of the same scenario applied to your phone with Intel Inside ...
The above are just my personal opinions on Intel ... tell me if I'm wrong ! Say thanks if you believe I helped you open your eyes !

peryp9 said:
In my personal opinion, I think Intel does make outstanding processors, but their marketing skills are not customer friendly. Take for example the numerous options for the speed of a processor they sell...
let's say the new processor X came out with speeds of 1.6 GHz, and then 3 months later, they come out with the same processor X but with improved speeds of 2.2 GHz at 40% increased cost... and after another 3 months they release the Black Edition processor X with the ultimate speed of 2.4 GHz at double and even triple the price of the original !!!
Do you honestly think they will redesign the production line just to make the new and improved Black Edition processor X ??? I don't think so... In my opinion, they're probably selling the exact same processor X from the beginning to the end, but they slow down the speed in the early versions and they gradually release to full potential ... In this way, they sell the same processor (which cuts down the design/engineering and production costs) yet they stay very profitable and ahead of the market curve by announcing an improved product every 3 months !!!
In other words, the same processor X will sell as follows:
1st release) Speed minus 40% (no overclock) ... "Regular" price
2nd release) Speed minus 30% (no overclock) ... "Regular" price + 15%
...................................................................................
...................................................................................
Black Edition) Speed and overclock unlocked ... "Regular" price + 300%
The worst thing they ever did (starting with Core processors, such as i3, i5...) was to incorporate the video card into the processor, and to lock out other video card vendors from the system ... In this way, they sell the processor AND the video card at the same time, and there's no more competition at the same time !!! They call this bull **** integration something like "system on a chip" for better power consumption ... WHEN WAS THE FIRST TIME ANYONE LOOKED FORWARD TO INSTALLING AND BENCHMARKING INTEL VIDEO CARDS IN THEIR COMPUTERS ??? Why do you think AMD bought ATI video card manufacturer ?
And you think it wouldn't get any worst ? Recently Intel started to sell their TOP OF THE LINE PROCESSORS without their video integrated cards ... That means that us, the consumers, have to PAY EXTRA FOR LESS PRODUCT just to get away from their marketing schemes !!!
In the end, we probably pay "regular" price when processor X is introduced, then it's all profits from there on for Intel.
Now back to cell phones ... think of the same scenario applied to your phone with Intel Inside ...
The above are just my personal opinions on Intel ... tell me if I'm wrong ! Say thanks if you believe I helped you open your eyes !
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Since when Intel has Black Edition CPU?
And about locking out other video card vendors from the system, are you sure you know what you talking about?

locoboi187 said:
intel will show other processor companies how its done. their technology is quality when compared to AMD. but AMD tries to be more innovative. in the end i went with expensive intel to build my computer
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Intel can school everyone else on microprocessor development, manufacturing, budget, evolution...but...x86 is known power hungry. I'm sure if they keep reducing their process (which they will) they can get x86 to match arm, energy consumption wise. But, on the same token, ARM will (WILL) get developed to a point where they will match x86 performance wise.
It's anybodies race. It's early (yes, very early) in the mobile computing game. Intel could very well pull through with it's very refined architecture....that's also regarded as crufty as fnck. The ARM architecture could very well also be refined to the point where they get as many operations per clock...both neck-and-neck on power efficiency.
All said, I'm both excited and doubtful in intel's ability. Microsoft is becoming irrelevant at an amazing speed...perhaps it's intel's turn as well. Wintel? Armdroid? A mix of the two?
Exciting times. Bring on the competition.

Intel never had something called "black editions". They have processors known as "Extreme editions" which are the highest quality bin CPU's which did not get chosen for the Xeon server cpus. These costs $999.
The next batch would be the second highest binned ones which would costs ~$500. Then the next are the average ones which passed all the tests but wasn't as high quality as the higher end models. These are the $200-300 ones.
The rest probably get thrown out.
Now the their integrated solution is a step foward in providing all in one solutions. They did not locking out video card makers who make discrete chipsets which absolutely crushes the integrated HD 2000/3000's. What makes these integrated solutions so attractive is the fact the their intel sync (?) encoding and other stuff is literally mind blowing.
You probably don't even know what you're talking about... like seriously? BE's are AMD's.... video makers are mainly dedicated with PCI-e interfaces....
*Edit*
Intel innovates crazily when pushed heavily. AMD punished Intel for its pentium 4 and forced them either step up or be irrelevant and stepped up they did... conroe... nehalam... clarksfield...sandy bridge.. ivy bridge...
I have no reason to believe if Arm shoved into intel into a corner like AMD did, they wouldn't pounce like they did on amd... let's just say.. if history has taught us anything... I' would feel really bad for ARM due to intels insane budgets, R&D, and advanced chipmaking facilities..

lilotimz said:
Intel never had something called "black editions". They have processors known as "Extreme editions" which are the highest quality bin CPU's which did not get chosen for the Xenon's server cpus. These costs $999.
The next batch would be the second highest binned ones , which would costs ~$500. Then the next are the average ones which did passed all the tests but wasn't as high quality as the higher end models. These are the $200-300 ones.
The rest probably get thrown out.
Now the their integrated solution is a step foward in providing all in one solutions. Not locking out video card makers who make discrete chipsets which absolutely crushes the integrated HD 2000/3000's. What makes these integrated solutions so attractive is the fact the their intel sync (?) encoding and other stuff is literally mind blowing.
You probably don't even know what you're talking about... like seriously? BE's are AMD's.... video makers are mainly dedicated with PCI-e interfaces....
*Edit*
Intel innovates crazily when pushed heavily. AMD punished Intel for its pentium 4 and forced them either step up or be irrelevant and stepped up they did... conroe... nehalam... clarksfield...sandy bridge.. ivy bridge...
I have no reason to believe if Arm shoved into intel into a corner like AMD did... let's just say.. if history has taught us anything... I' would feel really bad for ARM due to intels insane budgets, R&D, and advanced chipmaking facilities..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Intel Black Edition ... Intel Extreme Edition ... the idea was "top of the line". Look at the point I'm trying to make, not the wrong words I used.
Intel may claim that their integrated graphics are great for many thing, but look at the larger picture... pay premium dollar for the ability to use the video card of your choice !!
EDIT: The cheapest processor comes with integrated graphics, while the most expensive one comes without it. I remember when I bought my laptop a few years back (1st generation Intel i5). I was reading about Intel not allowing manufacturers to put other cards in order to bypass the integrated one. In the end, I bought this Intel i5 laptop with NVidia GeForce 325M with Optimus. Check to see how Optimus works with Intel's integrated card and you'll understand what I meant in my previous post.
In the end, the main point I'm trying to get across, is that Intel's products are great (except their video cards) but their marketing scheme will hurt the consumers if they take control of the mobile processor.

All the info by the commenter not withstanding, I have a hard time taking anyone who uses "effect" instead of "affect" seriously.
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