Develop Bugs

Google Earth in Windows Mobile?

At iPhone 3GS there is Google Earth with 3D view of some places mainly monuments, buildings and streets. In Windows Mobile there is Google Maps which is not so powerful.
Is there Google Earth to Windows Mobile? Please inform.
If not, is there some limitation in Windows Mobile devices to run Google Earth?
Thanks.

Remember that the iphone 3GS has the new generation of arm chipsets, just like Palm Pre (coretex A8 or something along those lines). The next generation of HTC products (some rumored to come out this year) will have similar chipsets, some of them more powerful if I'm not mistaken...
There's always been a problem with 3D graphics on this generation of Qualcomm chipsets due to the question of proper drivers. So I don't know if the current chipset is capable, but even if it were, I doubt it'd handle Google Earth without the proper drivers.

I don't know if the mobile version will suffer from it, but the full PC version of google earth has never been stable and has cause lots of PC's to blue screen.

OP: nope- looks like there's no Google Earth client for WM.
solsearch said:
Remember that the iphone 3GS has the new generation of arm chipsets, just like Palm Pre (coretex A8 or something along those lines). The next generation of HTC products (some rumored to come out this year) will have similar chipsets, some of them more powerful if I'm not mistaken...
There's always been a problem with 3D graphics on this generation of Qualcomm chipsets due to the question of proper drivers. So I don't know if the current chipset is capable, but even if it were, I doubt it'd handle Google Earth without the proper drivers.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, the Google Earth app runs on the iPhone/iPhone 3G as well, which has a 412 MHz ARM11 CPU and a PowerVR MBX-Lite GPU (a lot slower than the 3GS' Cortex A8 CPU and PowerVR SGX535 GPU). The Qualcomm MSM7200's ATI Imageon GPU hardware is actually theoretically faster than the MBX-Lite, but the implementation is, for whatever reason (drivers, etc.), a lot slower.
So yeah, I'm inclined to think that Google might be concerned about graphics limitations here, because even Google's own Android OS doesn't have a Google Earth client yet-- presumably because most of the popular Android devices are HTC phones with the same MSM7200 internals.

I have Pro 2 and in general I'm satisfied with it. But also I have access to an iPhone 3GS and I can assure that iPhone is a very fast device, far faster than Pro2. So, I don´t understand:
1 - Why iPhone has no video call?!!!
2 - Why iPhone is so faster compared with Pro2?!!
3 - Why HTC is disable to put graphic part of CPU working?!!!
On the contrary than it´s said, there is an application that permit iPhone to be a multi task device.
Racing car games on iPhone run so well like a PC, and the same with Google Earth. It's incredible the speed of iPhone in all applications. Also there are hundred of applications to iPhone.
However I don´t know why iPhone GPS only works properly with Navigon and not so well with Tomtom!!!
If iPhone had video call, a better GPS and a 800x480 screen (it's only 480x320 - 3.5"), it would be by far the best device in the market mainly due to the speed of it.

cribeiro said:
I have Pro 2 and in general I'm satisfied with it. But also I have access to an iPhone 3GS and I can assure that iPhone is a very fast device, far faster than Pro2. So, I don´t understand:
1 - Why iPhone has no video call?!!!
2 - Why iPhone is so faster compared with Pro2?!!
3 - Why HTC is disable to put graphic part of CPU working?!!!
On the contrary than it´s said, there is an application that permit iPhone to be a multi task device.
Racing car games on iPhone run so well like a PC, and the same with Google Earth. It's incredible the speed of iPhone in all applications. Also there are hundred of applications to iPhone.
However I don´t know why iPhone GPS only works properly with Navigon and not so well with Tomtom!!!
If iPhone had video call, a better GPS and a 800x480 screen (it's only 480x320 - 3.5"), it would be by far the best device in the market mainly due to the speed of it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There are a few reasons for this- first, the iPhone 3GS has far superior processing power compared to the TP2, and second, WM can't even make full use of what power the TP2 does have.
To address the first point, the 3GS has an ARM Cortex A8 CPU at 600 MHz (867 MHz underclocked for heat/power savings). Cortex A8 is twice as fast, clock-for-clock, as the ARM11 architecture. The TP2's Qualcomm MSM7200 CPU has an ARM11 at 528 MHz, so in raw processing power, the 3GS is 2-3x faster. Further, MSM7200 lacks ARM11's VFP option, so all floating-point operations are done by software, while the Cortex A8 has the NEON floating-point accelerator. As a result, the 3GS is 40-50x faster than the TP2 at floating-point operations, which iPhone OS X uses quite heavily.
On the graphics end, Apple chose to pair the Cortex A8 with a PowerVR SGX 535 GPU, which blows away everything short of Tegra (about 40% slower than Tegra's GPU, but Tegra's CPU is a slow 600 MHz ARM11, so 3GS' CPU is >200% faster). The SGX 535 is even faster than the Qualcomm Snapdragon's GPU (an ATI Imageon Z430), and from what's been seen so far, the 3GS' GPU is often 10-30x faster than HTC's implementation of the MSM7200 (in TP2/TD2/G1/etc.).
Now onto the second point- Windows CE, which underpins Windows Mobile, only targets the ancient ARMv5 instruction set, so it can't take advantage of newer CPU features, like hardware floating-point units. In addition, WM lacks a composited desktop- so while the iPhone/Pre/Android OSes all use GPU acceleration to handle their UI, WM relies on the CPU, so it can never be as smooth, for the same reason that Windows XP's UI can never be quite as smooth as Vista/7 (which have GPU-composited desktops).
So the result of that is that even if you feed WM a lot of processing power, it won't perform as well as other mobile OSes due to its ancient architecture. See the Toshiba TG01, for example- its 1 GHz Snapdragon CPU (whose architecture is even faster than Cortex A8) is over 60% faster than the 3GS', and its GPU is almost as fast, yet in many cases the 3GS still blows it away in usability and app performance.
HTC saved money by going with the same old Qualcomm MSM7200 chipset for the TP2/TD2, but in reality, even a Snapdragon chip wouldn't solve WM's architectural deficiencies. That won't change until MS moves beyond CE5/6 (probably with WM7 in late 2010).
Stock iPhones can't multitask beyond Apple's own included apps (iTunes, Mail, etc.), but if you jailbreak the phone (a simple 5-minute process- much simpler than flashing a WM ROM), apps like Backgrounder let you multitask. Apple thoroughly optimized its software to extract the most out of its hardware, and it really shows if you push the phone hard-- even the original iPhone/3G perform quite well given their hardware.
As for video calling, no US carrier supports it, and even in Europe, usage rates are abysmal and the quality's usually poor, so it doesn't make too much sense for Apple to integrate until it can guarantee an iChat-quality video experience.

amb9800 said:
Now onto the second point- Windows CE, which underpins Windows Mobile, only targets the ancient ARMv5 instruction set, so it can't take advantage of newer CPU features, like hardware floating-point units.
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Click to collapse
Actually, the OS targets ARMv4 so it's even worse, but makes it great to backport the OS to ancient devices.
However, the OS can take advantage of hardware FPU (detects for it even), but NO ODM will turn on the necessary OS support for it even if they ship a device with FPU in it, such as the S3C6410 in the OmniaII/Acer *900, and all the Snapdragon devices. They're all really lazy and enforces that if MS doesn't hand it on a silver platter to them, they won't make it themselves. They rather make more money shipping as many shoddy devices as possible (HTC).
So WM is a pretty poor platform to be on especially with a MSM7200 cpu crippling everybody. Google would be smart to dump HTC/Qualcomm's shackles and move to a modern platform for Android, and WM won't get there first.
It would be especially smart to just stop buying ANY device with a MSM7200 cpu in it unless all you want is feature-phone capabilities.

amb9800 said:
There are a few reasons for this- first, the iPhone 3GS has far superior processing power compared to the TP2, and second, WM can't even make full use of what power the TP2 does have.
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Click to collapse
great analysis, very informative!
tanx

Google Earth Client on HD2
Yes, but is there a good reason why an HD2 couldn't handle a Google Earth client (or do you need to load Android instead of WM6.5 to make it work) ?

AndyHy said:
Yes, but is there a good reason why an HD2 couldn't handle a Google Earth client (or do you need to load Android instead of WM6.5 to make it work) ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Snapdragon's GPU hardware is almost as powerful as the iPhone 3GS' (though driver implementation is still less than optimal), so I'm sure it could handle a Google Earth client. That said, Google's unlikely to release one for WM at this point...

Wow. Now that I am thoughly depressed that I paid 4x as much for my slower and less useful TP2 than for an iphone, I am going to have a hard time paying hte bill on this thing!
Thanks a lot!

Graphics Processor

Does the new hardware call for a graphics processor?
I know that Steve Jobs never sells a piece of hardware without a dedicated graphics processor, such as in the iPhone (PowerVR MBX-Lite graphics processor), or the Macbook (NVIDIA GeForce 9600M GT).
In windows machines, it is always an after-thought.

Snapdragon includes a perfectly reasonable graphics chip.

It just needs to be utilized with good drivers.

Shasarak said:
Snapdragon includes a perfectly reasonable graphics chip.
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Click to collapse
so no dedicated graphics processor?
Looks like iphone will still rule.

chiks19018 said:
so no dedicated graphics processor?
Looks like iphone will still rule.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Like everything else, we'll have to wait for MIX. But with their massive push into gaming and focus on XNA, I have no doubt that the graphics capability will be at least as good as if not light years ahead of iPhone.

RustyGrom said:
Like everything else, we'll have to wait for MIX. But with their massive push into gaming and focus on XNA, I have no doubt that the graphics capability will be at least as good as if not light years ahead of iPhone.
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Click to collapse
I sure do hope. But history says otherwise. MS never pushed for a graphics card with any of it's products as a "required" item. If the same happens here and Apple develops a new iphone 4gs with an even more powerful processor and as usual combine a dedicated graphics processor, then WP7 will be in the same boat as now.

chiks19018 said:
I sure do hope. But history says otherwise. MS never pushed for a graphics card with any of it's products as a "required" item. If the same happens here and Apple develops a new iphone 4gs with an even more powerful processor and as usual combine a dedicated graphics processor, then WP7 will be in the same boat as now.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What part of WP7 is like WM6? It's entirely different. Microsoft had practically no hardware requirements before, now they're being super strict. Gaming is a huge portion of their focus. We should know more next week at GDC. Besides, Snapdragon includes full 3d acceleration. There's no need for a discrete graphics chip as far as I'm aware.

Shasarak said:
Snapdragon includes a perfectly reasonable graphics chip.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
chiks19018 said:
so no dedicated graphics processor?
Looks like iphone will still rule.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What?! No, I said Snapdragon includes a perfectly reasonable graphics chip. How on Earth did you interpret that as meaning the exact opposite of what I said???
Snapdragon is not just a CPU. Snapdragon is a chipset, an entire mobile phone platform that consists of several separate chips. One of them is the CPU. Another of them is a graphics chip (or, if you prefer to phrase it that way, a "dedicated graphics processor") made by ATI/AMD. Honestly, have you never seen the Electopia demo running on a Snapdragon phone? The graphics are really quite impressive.
Yes, the Snapdragon GPU is somewhat less powerful than the one in the iPhone 3GS, but it's not an order of magnitude difference, and the faster CPU in Snapdragon (coupled with improved NEON instructions) somewhat compensates. Certainly the Snapdragon GPU is way more powerful than the one included with MSM72xx, and even that can run Xtrakt quite happily; it's miles ahead of the one in the iPhone 3G, too.

Shasarak said:
What?! No, I said Snapdragon includes a perfectly reasonable graphics chip. How on Earth did you interpret that as meaning the exact opposite of what I said???
Snapdragon is not just a CPU. Snapdragon is a chipset, an entire mobile phone platform that consists of several separate chips. One of them is the CPU. Another of them is a graphics chip (or, if you prefer to phrase it that way, a "dedicated graphics processor") made by ATI/AMD. Honestly, have you never seen the Electopia demo running on a Snapdragon phone? The graphics are really quite impressive.
Yes, the Snapdragon GPU is somewhat less powerful than the one in the iPhone 3GS, but it's not an order of magnitude difference, and the faster CPU in Snapdragon (coupled with improved NEON instructions) somewhat compensates. Certainly the Snapdragon GPU is way more powerful than the one included with MSM72xx, and even that can run Xtrakt quite happily; it's miles ahead of the one in the iPhone 3G, too.
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And thats for qsd8250.
Newer generation of snapdragon(msm8xxx and dual core QSD8672) has 4x greater performance than the snapdragon1. Don't know how's msm7x30 graphics performance. Besides we don't know which snapdragon chip will be used in windows phones.
It could either be qsd8650a which is 30% faster than the one used in HD2 or it could be the new msm7x30 or it could even be the high end msm8xxx which supports 1,3Ghz CPU, 1080p video and 4x faster GPU - hopefully it won't be qsd8250 which is manufactured at 65nm but something newer at 45nm. Power efficiency is very important, besides those newer chips just like tegra should be able to shutdown unused parts to minimize power consumption.

Out of curiosity - What's stopping WP7s manufacturers from using Tegra chips? I know Microsoft is working closely with Qualcomm, but does that automatically disqualify Nvidia as a supplier?
Regards

Silverdragondk said:
Out of curiosity - What's stopping WP7s manufacturers from using Tegra chips? I know Microsoft is working closely with Qualcomm, but does that automatically disqualify Nvidia as a supplier?
Regards
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well MS clearly stated that qualcomm is first chip supplier for Windows Phones. Probably in the future they will allow tegra, omap and probably samsung chips too.
For now we are stuck with snapdragon which isn't that bad IMO.

Silverdragondk said:
Out of curiosity - What's stopping WP7s manufacturers from using Tegra chips? I know Microsoft is working closely with Qualcomm, but does that automatically disqualify Nvidia as a supplier?
Regards
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Drivers. MS isn't giving the OEMs as much control over the lower level OS and is developing all of the drivers themselves. No more will we have the problem of HTC deciding that 3d drivers aren't needed.

Wishmaster89 said:
And thats for qsd8250.
Newer generation of snapdragon(msm8xxx and dual core QSD8672) has 4x greater performance than the snapdragon1. Don't know how's msm7x30 graphics performance. Besides we don't know which snapdragon chip will be used in windows phones.
It could either be qsd8650a which is 30% faster than the one used in HD2 or it could be the new msm7x30 or it could even be the high end msm8xxx which supports 1,3Ghz CPU, 1080p video and 4x faster GPU - hopefully it won't be qsd8250 which is manufactured at 65nm but something newer at 45nm. Power efficiency is very important, besides those newer chips just like tegra should be able to shutdown unused parts to minimize power consumption.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It will be sick if they annouce the msm8xxx being required and that's why HD2 isn't supported. I'd take that trade off.

Wishmaster89 said:
And thats for qsd8250.
Newer generation of snapdragon(msm8xxx and dual core QSD8672) has 4x greater performance than the snapdragon1. Don't know how's msm7x30 graphics performance. Besides we don't know which snapdragon chip will be used in windows phones.
It could either be qsd8650a which is 30% faster than the one used in HD2 or it could be the new msm7x30 or it could even be the high end msm8xxx which supports 1,3Ghz CPU, 1080p video and 4x faster GPU - hopefully it won't be qsd8250 which is manufactured at 65nm but something newer at 45nm. Power efficiency is very important, besides those newer chips just like tegra should be able to shutdown unused parts to minimize power consumption.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not all Snapdragon variants are actually intended to be used in phones. Most of the more powerful ones will only ever end up in netbooks and devices like that.
Wishmaster89 said:
Well MS clearly stated that qualcomm is first chip supplier for Windows Phones. Probably in the future they will allow tegra, omap and probably samsung chips too.
For now we are stuck with snapdragon which isn't that bad IMO.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The decision to exclude Samsung processors surprised me a bit. Samsung's "Hummingbird" CPU is easily the equal of the current generation Snapdragon, and Samsung has been a major supporter of Windows Mobile in the past. I guess MS wanted to limit itself to writing drivers for just one platform - allowing Samsung or OMAP processors would mean also allowing other GPUs, other GPS and Bluetooth hardware, etc.

Shasarak said:
The decision to exclude Samsung processors surprised me a bit. Samsung's "Hummingbird" CPU is easily the equal of the current generation Snapdragon, and Samsung has been a major supporter of Windows Mobile in the past. I guess MS wanted to limit itself to writing drivers for just one platform - allowing Samsung or OMAP processors would mean also allowing other GPUs, other GPS and Bluetooth hardware, etc.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's always sounded to me like they just picked one to launch with and will support others going forward. Writing drivers and testing other platforms at this point doesn't really give a good bang for the buck.
We should know on the 10th (the first GDC windows phone sessions). I would think the graphics capability would be something they would share there. But then again, they've shown an astounding ability to just say "wait for MIX" so far so they very well could keep that up.
Developing Games for Windows Phone 7 Series
Speaker: Michael Klucher
Time: 1:15-2:15pm
The future of Windows Phone has never looked better. With the release of Windows Phone 7 Series, game developers will be able to create amazing content rapidly. This talk outlines the basic framework for games, presents Windows Phone 7 Series device characteristics, and provides and overview of game development on the phone.
High Performance 3D Games on Windows Phone 7 Series
Speaker: Tomas Vykruta & Shawn Hargreaves
Time: 2:30-3:30pm
Windows Phone 7 Series is a highly capable platform for game development. This talk covers 3D game development on Windows Phone 7 Series with an emphasis on the unique characteristics of the platform. The talk also focuses on optimizing high-performance games for the platform, to help developers squeeze out every last drop of performance.
Development and Debugging Tools for Windows Phone 7 Series
Speaker: Cullen Waters
Time: 3:45pm-4:45pm
This talk discusses the basic tools available to game developers on Windows Phone 7 Series, including debugging, emulation, and performance tools. The talk places special emphasis on best practices for performance and profiling tools that can be used to optimize games for Windows Phone 7 Series.
Bringing the Best of Xbox LIVE to Windows Phone 7 Series
Speaker: Adam Schaeffer
Time: 5:00-6:00pm
The Xbox LIVE service is going mobile! With Windows Phone 7 Series, core features such as Achievements, Leaderboards, and game invites will be available to games on Windows Phone 7 Series devices. This talk covers the basics of the services available and how they can be used to enable core Xbox LIVE functionality in games. In addition, this talk will present best practices for connecting Windows Phone 7 Series games to back-end servers.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

I imagine that they want WP7 to be as smooth and hitch-free as possible to start out with. That means not allowing for any unknown variables such as different hardware, drivers, software.
It's the same for Iphone or any of the console game machines. It's one piece of hardware that is always the same making it easier to plan things for and develop things for. Which ends up meaning a higher perception of quality from the consumers due to lack of glitches and crashes.
Hence Apple's commercials saying how often PCs crash and stuff. They crash because PCs have way more variables as far as hardware and drivers than Macs have making many more incompatibilities.
Microsoft will probably allow other hardware once WP7 has a good name going in the consumers eyes.

Shasarak said:
Not all Snapdragon variants are actually intended to be used in phones. Most of the more powerful ones will only ever end up in netbooks and devices like that.
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Click to collapse
You're right. QSD8672 is targeted at smartbooks but msm8xxx is designed to power both smarphones and smartbooks. Besides OMAP4 and tegra2 are powerful but still we can expect smartphones based on those platforms next year.
The decision to exclude Samsung processors surprised me a bit. Samsung's "Hummingbird" CPU is easily the equal of the current generation Snapdragon, and Samsung has been a major supporter of Windows Mobile in the past. I guess MS wanted to limit itself to writing drivers for just one platform - allowing Samsung or OMAP processors would mean also allowing other GPUs, other GPS and Bluetooth hardware, etc.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think so too. More hardware platforms mean more work to do. So I think that support for other hardware platforms will come after they'll finish V1 of WP7 - this way they will just have to port complete full OS from snapdragon to other platform.

Shasarak said:
What?! No, I said Snapdragon includes a perfectly reasonable graphics chip. How on Earth did you interpret that as meaning the exact opposite of what I said???
Snapdragon is not just a CPU. Snapdragon is a chipset, an entire mobile phone platform that consists of several separate chips. One of them is the CPU. Another of them is a graphics chip (or, if you prefer to phrase it that way, a "dedicated graphics processor") made by ATI/AMD. Honestly, have you never seen the Electopia demo running on a Snapdragon phone? The graphics are really quite impressive.
Yes, the Snapdragon GPU is somewhat less powerful than the one in the iPhone 3GS, but it's not an order of magnitude difference, and the faster CPU in Snapdragon (coupled with improved NEON instructions) somewhat compensates. Certainly the Snapdragon GPU is way more powerful than the one included with MSM72xx, and even that can run Xtrakt quite happily; it's miles ahead of the one in the iPhone 3G, too.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
my bad. I thought snapdragon is a processor.

Will future versions feature multi-core processors??

Hi,
Not to long ago samsung released their new dual core processor "Orion" with has some amazing specs. They says it will be up for mass production in frist half of 2011.
Both qualcomm and lg has also new smartphone processors coming next year.
Will future windows phone 7 devices feature this? The snapdragon in the current devices is kinda outdated...
My ultimate windows phone 7 phone would feature:
512 meg ram or more
at least 1GHz Orion or similar dual core processor
800 x 480 or greater super-amoled multitouch screen
4" screen
Sleak design in aluminium

Yeah.
WP7 will get put onto all the new software as its needs to compete with Android and the iPhone.

Although the 1GHz snapdragon is a little outdated now i think some people don't realise that it is still a beast of a processor, and WP7 has been specifically designed to run perfectly on it as it was the minimum requirement for Hardware Manufacturers don't forget.
Having Qualcomms "Still in Development" 1.5 Dual Core inside a device would be fantastic, but it's not going to happen anytime soon (2012 at the earliest) and for the time being that doesn't bother me the slightest as my HD7 runs smooth as anything with what it's got. I doubt a dual-core processor would increase the usuability of any of the WP7 Phones, the only thing it would do is reduce loading times of App's/Games/etc, which is currently only seconds anyway.

Agreed, I believe in Q2 2011, the processors will finally be available for manufactures
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App

Audio said:
Although the 1GHz snapdragon is a little outdated now i think some people don't realise that it is still a beast of a processor, and WP7 has been specifically designed to run perfectly on it as it was the minimum requirement for Hardware Manufacturers don't forget.
Having Qualcomms "Still in Development" 1.5 Dual Core inside a device would be fantastic, but it's not going to happen anytime soon (2012 at the earliest) and for the time being that doesn't bother me the slightest as my HD7 runs smooth as anything with what it's got. I doubt a dual-core processor would increase the usuability of any of the WP7 Phones, the only thing it would do is reduce loading times of App's/Games/etc, which is currently only seconds anyway.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
True but what about Samsungs Orion then?
The other reason why im waiting for a New wp7 device is the lack of exchangeable storage on all devices...

my only concern is about the compatibility of the Phones with LTE technology as Verizon's LTE network will be up in my area by the end of the year.

i'm waiting 1G ram with using nvidia Tegra 2 cpu + 5-7 point mutil touch

CE7 supports multi-core ARM CPUs. There are plans to move WP7 to CE7 (it's currently on a CE6/7 variant) later on. That should happen before dual core chips are a reality so there's no reason Microsoft won't move to it. I would guess that would come with a major software and hardware spec update, maybe WP8. There's no point in tossing the current WP7 on much more powerful hardware because the software won't take advantage of it. Games and apps will still be targeted at the 1ghz SnapDragon so basically things will just load faster.
People really need to get out of this hardware spec mentality. It doesn't matter if the phone had a 100mhz CPU if it performs well. I know that's hard if you're a techy but you have to focus on the end result, not the pieces that make it happen.
hkcyber said:
i'm waiting 1G ram with using nvidia Tegra 2 cpu + 5-7 point mutil touch
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Is this for real? Why would you need 5-7 touch points? Can you even fit 7 fingers on a 4in screen?

I sure as hell hope that Microsoft won't allow this on Pad devices.
Sure the idea with Pad devices might be good, but not with an OS built for a 4" display.

Sir. Haxalot said:
I sure as hell hope that Microsoft won't allow this on Pad devices.
Sure the idea with Pad devices might be good, but not with an OS built for a 4" display.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yeah, if MS comes out with a pad, I hope they alter the OS or make a new one optimized for a pad sized screen.

All these quad core android leaks, What MS needs to do

I am seeing all of these crazy quad core android leaks now and windows phone will get even more behind in specs. Look i know that most apps wont even utilize the quad core, there are barely any apps that do dual core but Apollo better be groundbreaking and allow quad core cause that is where MS needs to compete. At this rate i think the next iPhone too will be outdated on release.

wp7 doesn't need quad core, in fact, 99% of the smartphone users don't even need a dual core.
you'll see these quad core phones with a huge price tag, low battery life and performing the same as single/dual core devices.
it's completely unnecessary. it's not like you're running lightroom and premiere on your phone.

svtfmook said:
wp7 doesn't need quad core, in fact, 99% of the smartphone users don't even need a dual core.
you'll see these quad core phones with a huge price tag, low battery life and performing the same as single/dual core devices.
it's completely unnecessary. it's not like you're running lightroom and premiere on your phone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Completely unnecessary? Definitely, wanted by many? Hell yes

svtfmook said:
wp7 doesn't need quad core, in fact, 99% of the smartphone users don't even need a dual core.
you'll see these quad core phones with a huge price tag, low battery life and performing the same as single/dual core devices.
it's completely unnecessary. it's not like you're running lightroom and premiere on your phone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My concern is with heat dissipation with all that processor power. In addition to my DVP, I have a MyTouch4G Slide - 1.2 ghz dual core - and it can get hot when you are using it. I am curious to see what the longevity of these 1st gen dual cores are based on my experience with the heat. My DVP seldom gets hot, neither did my nexus one for that matter. Just a thought...........

smoked by a windows phone
Haven't you seen any of the Smoked By Windows Phone challenges? A Windows phone is faster than any of the android or iphones out there with dual core processors. IMO thats saying something.

I'm kinda fed up by these donkheads using Android who talks about nothing but specs. You can put WHATEVER you want in that ****ing OS and it will still not run smooth because IT IS NOT OPTIMIZED FOR ****.

aren't these new procs supposed to be more efficient and cooler than the previous batch?

Its stupid that android is desperately trying to become more and more like a desktop PC.

michael_chea7 said:
Haven't you seen any of the Smoked By Windows Phone challenges? A Windows phone is faster than any of the android or iphones out there with dual core processors. IMO thats saying something.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Stitch a panorama? Smoked.
Shoot 1080? Ditto.
Higher CPU needs are coming ...

emjlr3 said:
aren't these new procs supposed to be more efficient and cooler than the previous batch?
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Click to collapse
Generally, yes.

lovenokia said:
I am seeing all of these crazy quad core android leaks now and windows phone will get even more behind in specs. Look i know that most apps wont even utilize the quad core, there are barely any apps that do dual core but Apollo better be groundbreaking and allow quad core cause that is where MS needs to compete. At this rate i think the next iPhone too will be outdated on release.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Quad cores are nice and stuff but they suck up a lot of battery power add that to the already 4G sucking up most of it and you get a phone that you have to charge every few hours a day. It's like a laptop with a cell phone battery.

ohgood said:
Stitch a panorama? Smoked.
Shoot 1080? Ditto.
Higher CPU needs are coming ...
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Click to collapse
gimmick gimmick gimmick

prohibido_por_la_ley said:
Its stupid that android is desperately trying to become more and more like a desktop PC.
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Click to collapse
This comment is ridiculous when you remember windows phone 8 is a desktop OS on a phone. well at least the kernel.
Quad cores however, are not needed on a phone at this point of time. Tablets yes, phones no. But to all that worry, Apollo is coming out this year

jz9833 said:
This comment is ridiculous when you remember windows phone 8 is a desktop OS on a phone. well at least the kernel.
Quad cores however, are not needed on a phone at this point of time. Tablets yes, phones no. But to all that worry, Apollo is coming out this year
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well u know what I mean, I meant it by the hardware standpoint.

I do think that Windows Phone needs to enter the dual core market for the gaming segment. Quad core is not necessary now and I suspect the Android market will not be dominated by quad cores in 2012.
But we do have to face facts, if (and I am not saying this is indeed a fact) the consumer wants a dual core then sales will not be where you want them to be if you are pushing out single cores. And so on. Imagine an OEM only making 3.2MP point and shoot cameras because that is enough to print on 8.5x11.

nicksti said:
I do think that Windows Phone needs to enter the dual core market for the gaming segment.
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It's exactly what I was going to say.... Xbox live titles are pretty good and they are getting better but, still not even close to some RPGs or Rage on the iphone or Android for graphics detail, quality and game play.
Xbox live is a brand that is known for great games, As a gamer, I am disapointed in the offerings given on my WP7 device. They are good but, not great.
Quad cores are just too much (battery and heat are the big ones), crap, to do better games, just give a better GPU, no quad core or even dual core is needed in most cases.

DavidinCT said:
It's exactly what I was going to say.... Xbox live titles are pretty good and they are getting better but, still not even close to some RPGs or Rage on the iphone or Android for graphics detail, quality and game play.
Xbox live is a brand that is known for great games, As a gamer, I am disapointed in the offerings given on my WP7 device. They are good but, not great.
Quad cores are just too much (battery and heat are the big ones), crap, to do better games, just give a better GPU, no quad core or even dual core is needed in most cases.
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absolutely agree, this is exactly why my device thats near on 2.5 YEARS old still kicks the balls off devices made yesterday
However, graphically intensive tasks are hampered by its aging Adreno 200 GPU
I believe the younger brother of my phone the HD7 had the Adreno 205 which gave it a significant bump, personally, i want the S3 Snapdragons, not for the multiple cores but the new Adreno 220/225.
The old S1 processor in my thing is still standing true, shoving 3 or even another 1 core in it is going to make the square route of bugger all difference in my every day needs.

The only reason for WP7 to have more CPU power is for gaming (and for the spec sheets of course). I am sure Apollo will bring multi-core support which will enable even better games. As it goes, some of the xbox live titles are fairly impressive, but there are games on other platforms which are significantly better due to the power available.
The only thing I have seen mentioned in this thread that is worth having more power for other than games, is 1080p video recording. It definitely does make a difference - I have a camera that does 1080p and it is very very nice. Cant wait for that, although I have a sneaky feeling that the second gen devices could do it if the software allowed it - correct me if I am wrong.

Yes, don't change Windows Phone! Keep it as it has always been. The first Gen devices from two years ago are sufficient, so there is no need for improvement! You see how great they sell!
Maybe quad core is a bit much on a phone (whereas I could imagine having one in my tablet), but if it improves multitasking, saves battery at the same time and makes speedier cameras, faster web browsing and better games possible- then fine, give the people the chance to buy these devices. Not everyone may need them (they buy the middle class models with the last gen hardware) but there definitely is a market.
And yes, imo Android devices are way faster than WP7 devices, equally smooth and offer a superior interface which looks better and offers far more options - a matter of taste!

Arjoma said:
... You see how great they sell! ...
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You ignore the fact that most sales people completely ignore selling WP7 over the easy sell of Android and iOS.
And yes, imo Android devices are way faster than WP7 devices, equally smooth and offer a superior interface which looks better and offers far more options - a matter of taste!
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Sorry... seen way too many laggy Android ROMs and devices to fully believe this statement. Whereas, every WP7 device has been consistently smooth. Superior interface is purely subjective.

Tegra 3 Overclock..?

I'm loving my yoga 11, however at times I just feel that Windows 8 RT slows down especially when multi-tasking. Since our Tegra's are clocked at 1.3Ghz and the same Chip in android devices runs at 1.5, with overclocked kernels available to run at 1.8-2.0Ghz, what are the chances we see this type of hack/development come to windows 8 RT? Im not sure the security obstacles that would present, but haven't seen much on this to even know if someone has looked into this or actively working on method to do so.
Thanks!

I have been thinking about this as well. Im sure it can be done, but by who? thats the question. Im sure we can easily squeeze some more power out of our device. Good luck to whoever spearheads this

ej_424 said:
I'm loving my yoga 11, however at times I just feel that Windows 8 RT slows down especially when multi-tasking. Since our Tegra's are clocked at 1.3Ghz and the same Chip in android devices runs at 1.5, with overclocked kernels available to run at 1.8-2.0Ghz, what are the chances we see this type of hack/development come to windows 8 RT? Im not sure the security obstacles that would present, but haven't seen much on this to even know if someone has looked into this or actively working on method to do so.
Thanks!
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The tegra isnt overclocked to 1.5 in android devices. There are actually 3 models of the Tegra 3 at different clock speeds. The one used in the RT is the lowest model (1.2GHz) overclocked to 1.3GHz already. I believe the other models are 1.4 and 1.6 with a few ROMs adding about 100MHz overclock as needed. 2ghz seems extreme though.

SixSixSevenSeven said:
The tegra isnt overclocked to 1.5 in android devices. There are actually 3 models of the Tegra 3 at different clock speeds. The one used in the RT is the lowest model (1.2GHz) overclocked to 1.3GHz already. I believe the other models are 1.4 and 1.6 with a few ROMs adding about 100MHz overclock as needed. 2ghz seems extreme though.
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I've thought about this as well but have always been too scared to ask. Windows is obviously not foreign to processor scaling and power management, perhaps there's a way to make a custom power plan or something. Maybe the way to approach overlooking is not 'like' Android, but 'like' regular old windows. I have no idea and am a noob, but I thought I'd just toss that out there.

SixSixSevenSeven said:
The tegra isnt overclocked to 1.5 in android devices. There are actually 3 models of the Tegra 3 at different clock speeds. The one used in the RT is the lowest model (1.2GHz) overclocked to 1.3GHz already. I believe the other models are 1.4 and 1.6 with a few ROMs adding about 100MHz overclock as needed. 2ghz seems extreme though.
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http://www.nvidia.com/object/tegra-3-processor.html
Its support for Windows RT is still under development. It isn't overclocked on the Surface RT/Vivo Tab but underclocked to compensate for the missing support for the fifth battery saver core.
We should expect the performance and battery to get better as they iron this out :laugh:
Actually, for those who have gotten Surface RT since launch... I bet most of you have already experience better performance after each monthly firmware update

LastBattle said:
http://www.nvidia.com/object/tegra-3-processor.html
Its support for Windows RT is still under development. It isn't overclocked on the Surface RT/Vivo Tab but underclocked to compensate for the missing support for the fifth battery saver core.
We should expect the performance and battery to get better as they iron this out :laugh:
Actually, for those who have gotten Surface RT since launch... I bet most of you have already experience better performance after each monthly firmware update
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That's a very good news indeed and we should then probably be able to run the Tablet at 1.6Ghz Quad core instead of the actual 1.3Ghz quad core :good:

LastBattle said:
http://www.nvidia.com/object/tegra-3-processor.html
Its support for Windows RT is still under development. It isn't overclocked on the Surface RT/Vivo Tab but underclocked to compensate for the missing support for the fifth battery saver core.
We should expect the performance and battery to get better as they iron this out :laugh:
Actually, for those who have gotten Surface RT since launch... I bet most of you have already experience better performance after each monthly firmware update
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No where in that link does it mention it being underclocked. The 1.4ghz single core/1.3 quad core is a feature of the entire tegra product line, not jsut the surface RT.
It does mention that the 5th battery saver core doesnt work on windows RT though, that will help.

Interesting: There is a "~MHz" key in regedit under local machine -> Hardware -> Description -> System -> Central processor -> 0, 1, 2, or 3. It is set to 1300, but changing it doesn't do anything and it reverts upon reboot.
Even if we can't overclock this thing, is there a way to resurrect the "High Performance" power plan that disappeared in RT? One that would set the CPU to 100% by default, all the time?

Any update or more info on this?

bigsnack said:
Any update or more info on this?
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+1

hope to see a 'high performance' feature on the pwr mgnment as well, especially when we are hooking up RT onto the power line and battery life is not so much of an issue in this case.

Rogerngks said:
hope to see a 'high performance' feature on the pwr mgnment as well, especially when we are hooking up RT onto the power line and battery life is not so much of an issue in this case.
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iirc, you can still set your cpu states through powercfg in the command line. I might be wrong though.

Is the 5th power saving core just disabled or not present on our hardware?

bigsnack said:
Is the 5th power saving core just disabled or not present on our hardware?
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According to NVidia's website, Tegra 3 for RT is "still under development." (http://www.nvidia.com/object/tegra-3-processor.html) It also lists it as only being quad-core on Windows 8 devices.
I had personally reeealy hoped that one of the highlights for RT 8.1 was going to be reworked support for the 5th core, bringing performance and battery life improvements. Alas, it was not to be.

jtg007 said:
According to NVidia's website, Tegra 3 for RT is "still under development." (http://www.nvidia.com/object/tegra-3-processor.html) It also lists it as only being quad-core on Windows 8 devices.
I had personally reeealy hoped that one of the highlights for RT 8.1 was going to be reworked support for the 5th core, bringing performance and battery life improvements. Alas, it was not to be.
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I cant see how the 5th core would bring a performance improvement. The system cannot use the 5th core as an actual 5th core, it shuts most of the other cores down to sleep when it needs the 5th which is also an incredibly low performance core, its just for power saving really, or simply hopping around the UI and checking your email, NVidia claim that android can also play video while running purely on the 5th core although this never happened on my Nexus 7 without any other apps running, it carried on running using 1 of the main cores for that.
Would definitely boost the battery life though and thats not something to be ignored. But there are few times where that 5th core really comes into its own, perhaps it just wasn't worth the time for MS to add companion core support to windows RT 8.1 when not all RT tablets use the tegra.

SixSixSevenSeven said:
I cant see how the 5th core would bring a performance improvement. The system cannot use the 5th core as an actual 5th core, it shuts most of the other cores down to sleep when it needs the 5th which is also an incredibly low performance core, its just for power saving really, or simply hopping around the UI and checking your email, NVidia claim that android can also play video while running purely on the 5th core although this never happened on my Nexus 7 without any other apps running, it carried on running using 1 of the main cores for that.
Would definitely boost the battery life though and thats not something to be ignored. But there are few times where that 5th core really comes into its own, perhaps it just wasn't worth the time for MS to add companion core support to windows RT 8.1 when not all RT tablets use the tegra.
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I always thought that the 5th core could run simultaneously with the other 4 to manage background tasks, etc, thus leaving less side work for the others. I could be wrong though. Also, I know of only one RT tab to NOT use Tegra (Dell), and it was the first to drop price and flop.
Anyways, the exciting thing about kexec/Linux prospects is that if we were to get in, there are a lot of Android and Linux versions that run on Tegra 3, which hopefully means we wouldn't have too tough of a time getting at that 5th core working then.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using xda app-developers app

Well the Samsung Ativ Tab RT is also using the S4 cpu, but that device had a limited release from what it seems like in North America. I too was under the assumption that th3 5th core could be used at the same time with the other cores, which could free up power for other things. Like the 5th core would be used for the low power task, while at the same the the other 4 cores are being used for a more process heavy task.
It would be interesting to have Android or Linux running in a dual boot situation on our RT devices, or if even possible do what Samsung is doing, and have it emulated in Windows so you can run apps side by side.

No, the 5th core is not an actual 5th core. The idea is you have 4 full blown cores at 1.2, 1.4 or 1.6ghz depending on the tegra model (and then the tegra can overclock automatically to 1.3, 1.5 or 1.7), thats quite power hungry really. But as CPU usage falls the tegra shuts a few cores off, if the system cant benefit from all 4 cores being active it will drop to 3, then 2 and then 1. Sometimes even that 1 core running at 1.2ghz is compartively power hungry, so the tegra shuts the final core down and fires up the companion core which I think runs around the 700MHz range, its slow at any rate, its also built optimised purely for power consumption over performance. Idea is you can go from a full quad core chip when you need the performance but then when the device is idling you can switch over to the companion core and shut the main 4 all off and save alot of power.
NVidia claim that the companion core combined with the hardware video acceleration of the tegra should be able to play HD videos on its own. That doesnt really seem to happen outside of the lab. But when you lock the screen on your android device it often jumps into companion core mode, you can browse around the android home screen and use a few lightweight apps on the companion core no problem, and when it does begin to struggle the tegra just has to skip over to its main core and gradually bring the other 3 main cores online as it needs them.
It never has the companion and main cores on in a state able to be used by the operating system simultaneously though.
Samsungs so called octa-core chips also do the same. They arent really octa core chips, in reality they are a quad core cortex A15 chip and a quad core lower clock speed cortex A9 chip (possibly even A7) on the same piece of silicon, when CPU load is high it runs as a quad core A15, when it doesnt need so much performance it shuts down the A15 and swaps for the A9, the 2 CPU's are near separate and at any one time the chip is only running as a single quad core processor not an octacore. Similar to the companion core design this can lead to a massive boost in battery life. In both A15 and A9 modes the processor is capable of shutting down individual cores as need be.
Tegra may well be the chip in all main tablets, but when microsoft first started working on windows RT there were meant to be qualcomm snapdragon, NVidia tegra and texas instruments OMAP devices all coming to market so of course microsoft at the time needed RT to run on all 3. The original plan was that there would be56 3rd party manufacturers manufacturing RT tablets, 2 per chip vendor except TI. Originally qualcomm partnered with HP and Samsung, NVidia with Lenovo and Asus and Toshiba with TI In the end TI dropped out and shortly after downscaled OMAP production (I think it has completely stopped with the exception of existing contracts now, or at least chips intended for tablet usage have been, they had a few industrial chips under the OMAP branding that might still be available, their ARM based microcontroller and DSP lines are still going fine), TI took Toshiba with them. Of course by the time TI dropped out there were already running builds of RT. HP dropped out and were replaced by dell. Acer were slated to be joining the program but didn't, when MS unveiled the surface that killed it for acer.
Another limitation is that Windows RT is essentially just an ARM port of windows 8, windows 8 and the NT kernel in general didnt already have support for the companion core or similar tech, it would be pointless adding it to the base NT kernel as hardly any devices use it and it would probably lead to issues introducing it only for tegra.

Surely Microsoft can see that getting the maximum out of the CPUs in their own devices is a good thing? I get that they have to support a few ARM architectures, but there's no reason why Windows RT can't be optimised with a specific update for the Surface?

bydandie said:
Surely Microsoft can see that getting the maximum out of the CPUs in their own devices is a good thing? I get that they have to support a few ARM architectures, but there's no reason why Windows RT can't be optimised with a specific update for the Surface?
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It would be a maintenance nightmare. You know the way everyone *****es and moans about the non existent android fragmentation (or at the very least hugely over exaggerated)? Now apply that to windows RT, its already a struggling platform. You don't want more ammo for the opposition, the extra effort probably isn't worth it. Under sleep mode or single core mode (non companion, RT will scale back to single core non companion happily) the battery life is good enough, companion would be nice, but non essential. Companion core would need to be supported at a kernel level. It would be a nightmare to keep one version of the kernel (if you don't know what a kernel is, consider it the chassis of a car or the foundations of a house, its the very core of the operating system) for each tablet.