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At iPhone 3GS there is Google Earth with 3D view of some places mainly monuments, buildings and streets. In Windows Mobile there is Google Maps which is not so powerful.
Is there Google Earth to Windows Mobile? Please inform.
If not, is there some limitation in Windows Mobile devices to run Google Earth?
Thanks.
Remember that the iphone 3GS has the new generation of arm chipsets, just like Palm Pre (coretex A8 or something along those lines). The next generation of HTC products (some rumored to come out this year) will have similar chipsets, some of them more powerful if I'm not mistaken...
There's always been a problem with 3D graphics on this generation of Qualcomm chipsets due to the question of proper drivers. So I don't know if the current chipset is capable, but even if it were, I doubt it'd handle Google Earth without the proper drivers.
I don't know if the mobile version will suffer from it, but the full PC version of google earth has never been stable and has cause lots of PC's to blue screen.
OP: nope- looks like there's no Google Earth client for WM.
solsearch said:
Remember that the iphone 3GS has the new generation of arm chipsets, just like Palm Pre (coretex A8 or something along those lines). The next generation of HTC products (some rumored to come out this year) will have similar chipsets, some of them more powerful if I'm not mistaken...
There's always been a problem with 3D graphics on this generation of Qualcomm chipsets due to the question of proper drivers. So I don't know if the current chipset is capable, but even if it were, I doubt it'd handle Google Earth without the proper drivers.
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Click to collapse
Well, the Google Earth app runs on the iPhone/iPhone 3G as well, which has a 412 MHz ARM11 CPU and a PowerVR MBX-Lite GPU (a lot slower than the 3GS' Cortex A8 CPU and PowerVR SGX535 GPU). The Qualcomm MSM7200's ATI Imageon GPU hardware is actually theoretically faster than the MBX-Lite, but the implementation is, for whatever reason (drivers, etc.), a lot slower.
So yeah, I'm inclined to think that Google might be concerned about graphics limitations here, because even Google's own Android OS doesn't have a Google Earth client yet-- presumably because most of the popular Android devices are HTC phones with the same MSM7200 internals.
I have Pro 2 and in general I'm satisfied with it. But also I have access to an iPhone 3GS and I can assure that iPhone is a very fast device, far faster than Pro2. So, I don´t understand:
1 - Why iPhone has no video call?!!!
2 - Why iPhone is so faster compared with Pro2?!!
3 - Why HTC is disable to put graphic part of CPU working?!!!
On the contrary than it´s said, there is an application that permit iPhone to be a multi task device.
Racing car games on iPhone run so well like a PC, and the same with Google Earth. It's incredible the speed of iPhone in all applications. Also there are hundred of applications to iPhone.
However I don´t know why iPhone GPS only works properly with Navigon and not so well with Tomtom!!!
If iPhone had video call, a better GPS and a 800x480 screen (it's only 480x320 - 3.5"), it would be by far the best device in the market mainly due to the speed of it.
cribeiro said:
I have Pro 2 and in general I'm satisfied with it. But also I have access to an iPhone 3GS and I can assure that iPhone is a very fast device, far faster than Pro2. So, I don´t understand:
1 - Why iPhone has no video call?!!!
2 - Why iPhone is so faster compared with Pro2?!!
3 - Why HTC is disable to put graphic part of CPU working?!!!
On the contrary than it´s said, there is an application that permit iPhone to be a multi task device.
Racing car games on iPhone run so well like a PC, and the same with Google Earth. It's incredible the speed of iPhone in all applications. Also there are hundred of applications to iPhone.
However I don´t know why iPhone GPS only works properly with Navigon and not so well with Tomtom!!!
If iPhone had video call, a better GPS and a 800x480 screen (it's only 480x320 - 3.5"), it would be by far the best device in the market mainly due to the speed of it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There are a few reasons for this- first, the iPhone 3GS has far superior processing power compared to the TP2, and second, WM can't even make full use of what power the TP2 does have.
To address the first point, the 3GS has an ARM Cortex A8 CPU at 600 MHz (867 MHz underclocked for heat/power savings). Cortex A8 is twice as fast, clock-for-clock, as the ARM11 architecture. The TP2's Qualcomm MSM7200 CPU has an ARM11 at 528 MHz, so in raw processing power, the 3GS is 2-3x faster. Further, MSM7200 lacks ARM11's VFP option, so all floating-point operations are done by software, while the Cortex A8 has the NEON floating-point accelerator. As a result, the 3GS is 40-50x faster than the TP2 at floating-point operations, which iPhone OS X uses quite heavily.
On the graphics end, Apple chose to pair the Cortex A8 with a PowerVR SGX 535 GPU, which blows away everything short of Tegra (about 40% slower than Tegra's GPU, but Tegra's CPU is a slow 600 MHz ARM11, so 3GS' CPU is >200% faster). The SGX 535 is even faster than the Qualcomm Snapdragon's GPU (an ATI Imageon Z430), and from what's been seen so far, the 3GS' GPU is often 10-30x faster than HTC's implementation of the MSM7200 (in TP2/TD2/G1/etc.).
Now onto the second point- Windows CE, which underpins Windows Mobile, only targets the ancient ARMv5 instruction set, so it can't take advantage of newer CPU features, like hardware floating-point units. In addition, WM lacks a composited desktop- so while the iPhone/Pre/Android OSes all use GPU acceleration to handle their UI, WM relies on the CPU, so it can never be as smooth, for the same reason that Windows XP's UI can never be quite as smooth as Vista/7 (which have GPU-composited desktops).
So the result of that is that even if you feed WM a lot of processing power, it won't perform as well as other mobile OSes due to its ancient architecture. See the Toshiba TG01, for example- its 1 GHz Snapdragon CPU (whose architecture is even faster than Cortex A8) is over 60% faster than the 3GS', and its GPU is almost as fast, yet in many cases the 3GS still blows it away in usability and app performance.
HTC saved money by going with the same old Qualcomm MSM7200 chipset for the TP2/TD2, but in reality, even a Snapdragon chip wouldn't solve WM's architectural deficiencies. That won't change until MS moves beyond CE5/6 (probably with WM7 in late 2010).
Stock iPhones can't multitask beyond Apple's own included apps (iTunes, Mail, etc.), but if you jailbreak the phone (a simple 5-minute process- much simpler than flashing a WM ROM), apps like Backgrounder let you multitask. Apple thoroughly optimized its software to extract the most out of its hardware, and it really shows if you push the phone hard-- even the original iPhone/3G perform quite well given their hardware.
As for video calling, no US carrier supports it, and even in Europe, usage rates are abysmal and the quality's usually poor, so it doesn't make too much sense for Apple to integrate until it can guarantee an iChat-quality video experience.
amb9800 said:
Now onto the second point- Windows CE, which underpins Windows Mobile, only targets the ancient ARMv5 instruction set, so it can't take advantage of newer CPU features, like hardware floating-point units.
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Click to collapse
Actually, the OS targets ARMv4 so it's even worse, but makes it great to backport the OS to ancient devices.
However, the OS can take advantage of hardware FPU (detects for it even), but NO ODM will turn on the necessary OS support for it even if they ship a device with FPU in it, such as the S3C6410 in the OmniaII/Acer *900, and all the Snapdragon devices. They're all really lazy and enforces that if MS doesn't hand it on a silver platter to them, they won't make it themselves. They rather make more money shipping as many shoddy devices as possible (HTC).
So WM is a pretty poor platform to be on especially with a MSM7200 cpu crippling everybody. Google would be smart to dump HTC/Qualcomm's shackles and move to a modern platform for Android, and WM won't get there first.
It would be especially smart to just stop buying ANY device with a MSM7200 cpu in it unless all you want is feature-phone capabilities.
amb9800 said:
There are a few reasons for this- first, the iPhone 3GS has far superior processing power compared to the TP2, and second, WM can't even make full use of what power the TP2 does have.
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Click to collapse
great analysis, very informative!
tanx
Google Earth Client on HD2
Yes, but is there a good reason why an HD2 couldn't handle a Google Earth client (or do you need to load Android instead of WM6.5 to make it work) ?
AndyHy said:
Yes, but is there a good reason why an HD2 couldn't handle a Google Earth client (or do you need to load Android instead of WM6.5 to make it work) ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Snapdragon's GPU hardware is almost as powerful as the iPhone 3GS' (though driver implementation is still less than optimal), so I'm sure it could handle a Google Earth client. That said, Google's unlikely to release one for WM at this point...
Wow. Now that I am thoughly depressed that I paid 4x as much for my slower and less useful TP2 than for an iphone, I am going to have a hard time paying hte bill on this thing!
Thanks a lot!
Does the new hardware call for a graphics processor?
I know that Steve Jobs never sells a piece of hardware without a dedicated graphics processor, such as in the iPhone (PowerVR MBX-Lite graphics processor), or the Macbook (NVIDIA GeForce 9600M GT).
In windows machines, it is always an after-thought.
Snapdragon includes a perfectly reasonable graphics chip.
It just needs to be utilized with good drivers.
Shasarak said:
Snapdragon includes a perfectly reasonable graphics chip.
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Click to collapse
so no dedicated graphics processor?
Looks like iphone will still rule.
chiks19018 said:
so no dedicated graphics processor?
Looks like iphone will still rule.
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Click to collapse
Like everything else, we'll have to wait for MIX. But with their massive push into gaming and focus on XNA, I have no doubt that the graphics capability will be at least as good as if not light years ahead of iPhone.
RustyGrom said:
Like everything else, we'll have to wait for MIX. But with their massive push into gaming and focus on XNA, I have no doubt that the graphics capability will be at least as good as if not light years ahead of iPhone.
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I sure do hope. But history says otherwise. MS never pushed for a graphics card with any of it's products as a "required" item. If the same happens here and Apple develops a new iphone 4gs with an even more powerful processor and as usual combine a dedicated graphics processor, then WP7 will be in the same boat as now.
chiks19018 said:
I sure do hope. But history says otherwise. MS never pushed for a graphics card with any of it's products as a "required" item. If the same happens here and Apple develops a new iphone 4gs with an even more powerful processor and as usual combine a dedicated graphics processor, then WP7 will be in the same boat as now.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What part of WP7 is like WM6? It's entirely different. Microsoft had practically no hardware requirements before, now they're being super strict. Gaming is a huge portion of their focus. We should know more next week at GDC. Besides, Snapdragon includes full 3d acceleration. There's no need for a discrete graphics chip as far as I'm aware.
Shasarak said:
Snapdragon includes a perfectly reasonable graphics chip.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
chiks19018 said:
so no dedicated graphics processor?
Looks like iphone will still rule.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What?! No, I said Snapdragon includes a perfectly reasonable graphics chip. How on Earth did you interpret that as meaning the exact opposite of what I said???
Snapdragon is not just a CPU. Snapdragon is a chipset, an entire mobile phone platform that consists of several separate chips. One of them is the CPU. Another of them is a graphics chip (or, if you prefer to phrase it that way, a "dedicated graphics processor") made by ATI/AMD. Honestly, have you never seen the Electopia demo running on a Snapdragon phone? The graphics are really quite impressive.
Yes, the Snapdragon GPU is somewhat less powerful than the one in the iPhone 3GS, but it's not an order of magnitude difference, and the faster CPU in Snapdragon (coupled with improved NEON instructions) somewhat compensates. Certainly the Snapdragon GPU is way more powerful than the one included with MSM72xx, and even that can run Xtrakt quite happily; it's miles ahead of the one in the iPhone 3G, too.
Shasarak said:
What?! No, I said Snapdragon includes a perfectly reasonable graphics chip. How on Earth did you interpret that as meaning the exact opposite of what I said???
Snapdragon is not just a CPU. Snapdragon is a chipset, an entire mobile phone platform that consists of several separate chips. One of them is the CPU. Another of them is a graphics chip (or, if you prefer to phrase it that way, a "dedicated graphics processor") made by ATI/AMD. Honestly, have you never seen the Electopia demo running on a Snapdragon phone? The graphics are really quite impressive.
Yes, the Snapdragon GPU is somewhat less powerful than the one in the iPhone 3GS, but it's not an order of magnitude difference, and the faster CPU in Snapdragon (coupled with improved NEON instructions) somewhat compensates. Certainly the Snapdragon GPU is way more powerful than the one included with MSM72xx, and even that can run Xtrakt quite happily; it's miles ahead of the one in the iPhone 3G, too.
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And thats for qsd8250.
Newer generation of snapdragon(msm8xxx and dual core QSD8672) has 4x greater performance than the snapdragon1. Don't know how's msm7x30 graphics performance. Besides we don't know which snapdragon chip will be used in windows phones.
It could either be qsd8650a which is 30% faster than the one used in HD2 or it could be the new msm7x30 or it could even be the high end msm8xxx which supports 1,3Ghz CPU, 1080p video and 4x faster GPU - hopefully it won't be qsd8250 which is manufactured at 65nm but something newer at 45nm. Power efficiency is very important, besides those newer chips just like tegra should be able to shutdown unused parts to minimize power consumption.
Out of curiosity - What's stopping WP7s manufacturers from using Tegra chips? I know Microsoft is working closely with Qualcomm, but does that automatically disqualify Nvidia as a supplier?
Regards
Silverdragondk said:
Out of curiosity - What's stopping WP7s manufacturers from using Tegra chips? I know Microsoft is working closely with Qualcomm, but does that automatically disqualify Nvidia as a supplier?
Regards
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well MS clearly stated that qualcomm is first chip supplier for Windows Phones. Probably in the future they will allow tegra, omap and probably samsung chips too.
For now we are stuck with snapdragon which isn't that bad IMO.
Silverdragondk said:
Out of curiosity - What's stopping WP7s manufacturers from using Tegra chips? I know Microsoft is working closely with Qualcomm, but does that automatically disqualify Nvidia as a supplier?
Regards
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Drivers. MS isn't giving the OEMs as much control over the lower level OS and is developing all of the drivers themselves. No more will we have the problem of HTC deciding that 3d drivers aren't needed.
Wishmaster89 said:
And thats for qsd8250.
Newer generation of snapdragon(msm8xxx and dual core QSD8672) has 4x greater performance than the snapdragon1. Don't know how's msm7x30 graphics performance. Besides we don't know which snapdragon chip will be used in windows phones.
It could either be qsd8650a which is 30% faster than the one used in HD2 or it could be the new msm7x30 or it could even be the high end msm8xxx which supports 1,3Ghz CPU, 1080p video and 4x faster GPU - hopefully it won't be qsd8250 which is manufactured at 65nm but something newer at 45nm. Power efficiency is very important, besides those newer chips just like tegra should be able to shutdown unused parts to minimize power consumption.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It will be sick if they annouce the msm8xxx being required and that's why HD2 isn't supported. I'd take that trade off.
Wishmaster89 said:
And thats for qsd8250.
Newer generation of snapdragon(msm8xxx and dual core QSD8672) has 4x greater performance than the snapdragon1. Don't know how's msm7x30 graphics performance. Besides we don't know which snapdragon chip will be used in windows phones.
It could either be qsd8650a which is 30% faster than the one used in HD2 or it could be the new msm7x30 or it could even be the high end msm8xxx which supports 1,3Ghz CPU, 1080p video and 4x faster GPU - hopefully it won't be qsd8250 which is manufactured at 65nm but something newer at 45nm. Power efficiency is very important, besides those newer chips just like tegra should be able to shutdown unused parts to minimize power consumption.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not all Snapdragon variants are actually intended to be used in phones. Most of the more powerful ones will only ever end up in netbooks and devices like that.
Wishmaster89 said:
Well MS clearly stated that qualcomm is first chip supplier for Windows Phones. Probably in the future they will allow tegra, omap and probably samsung chips too.
For now we are stuck with snapdragon which isn't that bad IMO.
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Click to collapse
The decision to exclude Samsung processors surprised me a bit. Samsung's "Hummingbird" CPU is easily the equal of the current generation Snapdragon, and Samsung has been a major supporter of Windows Mobile in the past. I guess MS wanted to limit itself to writing drivers for just one platform - allowing Samsung or OMAP processors would mean also allowing other GPUs, other GPS and Bluetooth hardware, etc.
Shasarak said:
The decision to exclude Samsung processors surprised me a bit. Samsung's "Hummingbird" CPU is easily the equal of the current generation Snapdragon, and Samsung has been a major supporter of Windows Mobile in the past. I guess MS wanted to limit itself to writing drivers for just one platform - allowing Samsung or OMAP processors would mean also allowing other GPUs, other GPS and Bluetooth hardware, etc.
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It's always sounded to me like they just picked one to launch with and will support others going forward. Writing drivers and testing other platforms at this point doesn't really give a good bang for the buck.
We should know on the 10th (the first GDC windows phone sessions). I would think the graphics capability would be something they would share there. But then again, they've shown an astounding ability to just say "wait for MIX" so far so they very well could keep that up.
Developing Games for Windows Phone 7 Series
Speaker: Michael Klucher
Time: 1:15-2:15pm
The future of Windows Phone has never looked better. With the release of Windows Phone 7 Series, game developers will be able to create amazing content rapidly. This talk outlines the basic framework for games, presents Windows Phone 7 Series device characteristics, and provides and overview of game development on the phone.
High Performance 3D Games on Windows Phone 7 Series
Speaker: Tomas Vykruta & Shawn Hargreaves
Time: 2:30-3:30pm
Windows Phone 7 Series is a highly capable platform for game development. This talk covers 3D game development on Windows Phone 7 Series with an emphasis on the unique characteristics of the platform. The talk also focuses on optimizing high-performance games for the platform, to help developers squeeze out every last drop of performance.
Development and Debugging Tools for Windows Phone 7 Series
Speaker: Cullen Waters
Time: 3:45pm-4:45pm
This talk discusses the basic tools available to game developers on Windows Phone 7 Series, including debugging, emulation, and performance tools. The talk places special emphasis on best practices for performance and profiling tools that can be used to optimize games for Windows Phone 7 Series.
Bringing the Best of Xbox LIVE to Windows Phone 7 Series
Speaker: Adam Schaeffer
Time: 5:00-6:00pm
The Xbox LIVE service is going mobile! With Windows Phone 7 Series, core features such as Achievements, Leaderboards, and game invites will be available to games on Windows Phone 7 Series devices. This talk covers the basics of the services available and how they can be used to enable core Xbox LIVE functionality in games. In addition, this talk will present best practices for connecting Windows Phone 7 Series games to back-end servers.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I imagine that they want WP7 to be as smooth and hitch-free as possible to start out with. That means not allowing for any unknown variables such as different hardware, drivers, software.
It's the same for Iphone or any of the console game machines. It's one piece of hardware that is always the same making it easier to plan things for and develop things for. Which ends up meaning a higher perception of quality from the consumers due to lack of glitches and crashes.
Hence Apple's commercials saying how often PCs crash and stuff. They crash because PCs have way more variables as far as hardware and drivers than Macs have making many more incompatibilities.
Microsoft will probably allow other hardware once WP7 has a good name going in the consumers eyes.
Shasarak said:
Not all Snapdragon variants are actually intended to be used in phones. Most of the more powerful ones will only ever end up in netbooks and devices like that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You're right. QSD8672 is targeted at smartbooks but msm8xxx is designed to power both smarphones and smartbooks. Besides OMAP4 and tegra2 are powerful but still we can expect smartphones based on those platforms next year.
The decision to exclude Samsung processors surprised me a bit. Samsung's "Hummingbird" CPU is easily the equal of the current generation Snapdragon, and Samsung has been a major supporter of Windows Mobile in the past. I guess MS wanted to limit itself to writing drivers for just one platform - allowing Samsung or OMAP processors would mean also allowing other GPUs, other GPS and Bluetooth hardware, etc.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think so too. More hardware platforms mean more work to do. So I think that support for other hardware platforms will come after they'll finish V1 of WP7 - this way they will just have to port complete full OS from snapdragon to other platform.
Shasarak said:
What?! No, I said Snapdragon includes a perfectly reasonable graphics chip. How on Earth did you interpret that as meaning the exact opposite of what I said???
Snapdragon is not just a CPU. Snapdragon is a chipset, an entire mobile phone platform that consists of several separate chips. One of them is the CPU. Another of them is a graphics chip (or, if you prefer to phrase it that way, a "dedicated graphics processor") made by ATI/AMD. Honestly, have you never seen the Electopia demo running on a Snapdragon phone? The graphics are really quite impressive.
Yes, the Snapdragon GPU is somewhat less powerful than the one in the iPhone 3GS, but it's not an order of magnitude difference, and the faster CPU in Snapdragon (coupled with improved NEON instructions) somewhat compensates. Certainly the Snapdragon GPU is way more powerful than the one included with MSM72xx, and even that can run Xtrakt quite happily; it's miles ahead of the one in the iPhone 3G, too.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
my bad. I thought snapdragon is a processor.
The following article is not even remotely related to E4GT (or Samsung for that matter) but I found it very interesting... There's a strong possibility of Intel dominating all mobile processors starting 2014 - 2015 ...
http://liliputing.com/2012/04/intel-pushes-atom-chip-for-android-devices.html
EDIT: I just noticed that the website (or maybe the user) removed the second post that I copied below.
You can skip the actual article, but read the comments (from user CyberGusa) :
While as for what advantages Intel can start to offer, it's what Chippy from UMPCPortal would call High Dynamic Range Computing (HDRC). Unlike ARM, Intel is fully capable of scaling from the mobile range to the full desktop range.
This will be especially true if Windows 8 is successful, as x86 can offer legacy support where ARM can't, and can provide the higher range performance that ARM is still many years away from being able to provide as their high end next gen offerings will only rival the present gen Intel ATOMs.
MS in particular is patenting a way to easily switch between CPU's when docking. So could make a Windows system literally scale from mobile to laptop and even desktop by just docking it.
The closest ARM based devices will get to this scaling is switching from a ARM to higher end Intel or AMD chip when docked but this will also involve switching from a mobile OS to a desktop one to fully take advantage of the switch.
Though Google is making progress towards making Android a more desktop friendly OS, like with Webtop and similar UI optimizations that take over when docked that would allow Android to take advantage of such scaling but would still be more limited than switching to a true desktop OS that isn't designed with the limits that a mobile OS will have to deal with no matter how the UI is altered and optimized,
Failure of Windows 8 though could well give ARM the advantage.
Intel though is hedging its bets with support for Android and of course the Tizen project. They already bought a company last year that provides them the option to easily switch between two OS instantly, without rebooting.
While they are compensating for what advantages ARM has over them by keeping ahead of the manufacturing shrink curve by at least a year.
So while ARM is heading towards 32 and 28nm productions, Intel is heading toward 22nm and that combined with the architectural updates could potentially start giving Intel the edge.
Mind also that there have been problems with the 28nm production and Intel has strategically not helped ARM with this issue. So time table for many gives them limited time for market penetration before Intel will be able to come out with their own 22nm chips and 14nm is scheduled for 2014.
Also consider that it's not the general consumer market at stake here but also the embedded and server markets, which could give Intel more of a advantage considering that x86 hardware can run pretty much any OS but ARM is still limited to OS already optimized for it.
While ARM is also depending on Windows 8 being a success to provide it a mainstream desktop OS to provide the ability to start competing in the traditional PC markets, and thus would also be negatively effected if Windows 8 fails.
So while ARM is looking good for the rest of this year, it remains to be seen if that will remain true next year and Intel should never be underestimated.
More comments from the same user (CyberGusa):
Right now Intel only has dual core in their higher end ATOM lineup and up to 8 cores for the server market, neither of which are competing with ARM yet.
The upcoming dual core Medfield is mainly just planned for the Tablet market and shouldn't effect the Smart Phone market.
So the main advantage of ARM solutions right now is that they're much more mainstream for the mobile market, with Intel only beginning to compete for the first time. Much like how Nvidia when they first introduced the Tegra and shows slow beginnings are not indicative of how they will do in a year or two.
While as already mentioned the Intel ATOM's are still using pretty much the same architecture as when it was first introduced to the market in 2008. This is like comparing the Cortex A15 to the older Cortex A8 based ARM chips and having the Cortex A8 solution still holds its own.
So having it even come in the same ball park is actually a testament to how much ARM still has to catch up for the higher performance range they're only now entering.
Mind beating the ATOM isn't really hard, as that's the bottom of Intel's chip offerings, with the Core i-Series offering multiples times better performance that ARM is still years away from even getting close to.
While the next gen ATOM's coming out next year are Intel's equivalent of a A15 update to the ATOM. Introducing many of the technology they developed for Ivy Bridge to the ATOM.
Like Intel's Tri-Gate Transistors, a HD 4000 based GMA, putting the entire lineup under SoC, offering a wider range of processor configurations, finally adding Out Of Order Processing to the ATOM, among many other improvements.
While ARM manufacturers are having problems, the delay in moving to 28nm being the most outstanding right now, which is why many are still opting for 32nm. Especially those who have yet to deal with the increased problem of power leakage as they continue to shrink the FAB.
Even Apple is still on 45nm with their latest iPad and had to increase the battery size by 70% to compensate for the increased power consumption of the retina display and the quad core GPU's requires.
So they may up their game but it's going to get harder for them here on out as ARM was designed for low power and low performance and need time to evolve to be able to apply itself to higher end applications.
While Intel already dominates the higher end and just wants to start penetrating into the lower end and that's going to be arguably easier for them to do than for ARM to keep on increasing its performance.
Mind, ARM is still a 32bit architecture and only recently introduced designs for 64bit. This means they're still years away from going fully 64bit and for now we're only going to see enhancements like 64bit memory management.
While it's not easy to continue providing increasing performance and still keep costs and power consumption low. Also ARM customizations has the down side of increased hardware fragmentation.
So it's not like Intel doesn't stand a chance, it's just going to take awhile to see if they can really start competing in the mobile market or have to stay in the higher end PC market.
Comment as you see fit, and keep in mind these are just opinions, not facts !!!
First...
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Even if Intel is not on top by then they will make sure the bar is set high. Good read.
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Good read. If Intel is truly interested in advancing the mobile field, I can see them doing big things in the future. At the very least, the competition they bring to the market will keep everyone else on their toes.
Transmission sent from a Galaxy S II, CODENAME style.
intel will show other processor companies how its done. their technology is quality when compared to AMD. but AMD tries to be more innovative. in the end i went with expensive intel to build my computer
Competition premotes innovation. I have read that the next few generations of processors are already developed but they only release one at a time to guarantee profits and to not outrun what they have. So, with more chips in competition this will help us see better processors faster. It will also lower cost. So, a phone might cost the same 4 years from now instead of more. I personally think it is a great idea. Even if there chips weren't much better they still will help. It is a win win for the consumer. Great article!
Sent from Team KC's founding member HTC Evo 4G LTE.
Oh and Intel is known for making low battery consumption processors. Can't wait for that by them making small chips only nanometers big
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kc_exactly said:
Competition premotes innovation. I have read that the next few generations of processors are already developed but they only release one at a time to guarantee profits and to not outrun what they have. So, with more chips in competition this will help us see better processors faster. It will also lower cost. So, a phone might cost the same 4 years from now instead of more. I personally think it is a great idea. Even if there chips weren't much better they still will help. It is a win win for the consumer. Great article!
Sent from Team KC's founding member HTC Evo 4G LTE.
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Click to collapse
In my personal opinion, I think Intel does make outstanding processors, but their marketing skills are not customer friendly. Take for example the numerous options for the speed of a processor they sell...
let's say the new processor X came out with speeds of 1.6 GHz, and then 3 months later, they come out with the same processor X but with improved speeds of 2.2 GHz at 40% increased cost... and after another 3 months they release the Black Edition processor X with the ultimate speed of 2.4 GHz at double and even triple the price of the original !!!
Do you honestly think they will redesign the production line just to make the new and improved Black Edition processor X ??? I don't think so... In my opinion, they're probably selling the exact same processor X from the beginning to the end, but they slow down the speed in the early versions and they gradually release to full potential ... In this way, they sell the same processor (which cuts down the design/engineering and production costs) yet they stay very profitable and ahead of the market curve by announcing an improved product every 3 months !!!
In other words, the same processor X will sell as follows:
1st release) Speed minus 40% (no overclock) ... "Regular" price
2nd release) Speed minus 30% (no overclock) ... "Regular" price + 15%
...................................................................................
...................................................................................
Black Edition) Speed and overclock unlocked ... "Regular" price + 300%
The worst thing they ever did (starting with Core processors, such as i3, i5...) was to incorporate the video card into the processor, and to lock out other video card vendors from the system ... In this way, they sell the processor AND the video card at the same time, and there's no more competition at the same time !!! They call this bull **** integration something like "system on a chip" for better power consumption ... WHEN WAS THE FIRST TIME ANYONE LOOKED FORWARD TO INSTALLING AND BENCHMARKING INTEL VIDEO CARDS IN THEIR COMPUTERS ??? Why do you think AMD bought ATI video card manufacturer ?
And you think it wouldn't get any worst ? Recently Intel started to sell their TOP OF THE LINE PROCESSORS without their video integrated cards ... That means that us, the consumers, have to PAY EXTRA FOR LESS PRODUCT just to get away from their marketing schemes !!!
In the end, we probably pay "regular" price when processor X is introduced, then it's all profits from there on for Intel.
Now back to cell phones ... think of the same scenario applied to your phone with Intel Inside ...
The above are just my personal opinions on Intel ... tell me if I'm wrong ! Say thanks if you believe I helped you open your eyes !
peryp9 said:
In my personal opinion, I think Intel does make outstanding processors, but their marketing skills are not customer friendly. Take for example the numerous options for the speed of a processor they sell...
let's say the new processor X came out with speeds of 1.6 GHz, and then 3 months later, they come out with the same processor X but with improved speeds of 2.2 GHz at 40% increased cost... and after another 3 months they release the Black Edition processor X with the ultimate speed of 2.4 GHz at double and even triple the price of the original !!!
Do you honestly think they will redesign the production line just to make the new and improved Black Edition processor X ??? I don't think so... In my opinion, they're probably selling the exact same processor X from the beginning to the end, but they slow down the speed in the early versions and they gradually release to full potential ... In this way, they sell the same processor (which cuts down the design/engineering and production costs) yet they stay very profitable and ahead of the market curve by announcing an improved product every 3 months !!!
In other words, the same processor X will sell as follows:
1st release) Speed minus 40% (no overclock) ... "Regular" price
2nd release) Speed minus 30% (no overclock) ... "Regular" price + 15%
...................................................................................
...................................................................................
Black Edition) Speed and overclock unlocked ... "Regular" price + 300%
The worst thing they ever did (starting with Core processors, such as i3, i5...) was to incorporate the video card into the processor, and to lock out other video card vendors from the system ... In this way, they sell the processor AND the video card at the same time, and there's no more competition at the same time !!! They call this bull **** integration something like "system on a chip" for better power consumption ... WHEN WAS THE FIRST TIME ANYONE LOOKED FORWARD TO INSTALLING AND BENCHMARKING INTEL VIDEO CARDS IN THEIR COMPUTERS ??? Why do you think AMD bought ATI video card manufacturer ?
And you think it wouldn't get any worst ? Recently Intel started to sell their TOP OF THE LINE PROCESSORS without their video integrated cards ... That means that us, the consumers, have to PAY EXTRA FOR LESS PRODUCT just to get away from their marketing schemes !!!
In the end, we probably pay "regular" price when processor X is introduced, then it's all profits from there on for Intel.
Now back to cell phones ... think of the same scenario applied to your phone with Intel Inside ...
The above are just my personal opinions on Intel ... tell me if I'm wrong ! Say thanks if you believe I helped you open your eyes !
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Since when Intel has Black Edition CPU?
And about locking out other video card vendors from the system, are you sure you know what you talking about?
locoboi187 said:
intel will show other processor companies how its done. their technology is quality when compared to AMD. but AMD tries to be more innovative. in the end i went with expensive intel to build my computer
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Intel can school everyone else on microprocessor development, manufacturing, budget, evolution...but...x86 is known power hungry. I'm sure if they keep reducing their process (which they will) they can get x86 to match arm, energy consumption wise. But, on the same token, ARM will (WILL) get developed to a point where they will match x86 performance wise.
It's anybodies race. It's early (yes, very early) in the mobile computing game. Intel could very well pull through with it's very refined architecture....that's also regarded as crufty as fnck. The ARM architecture could very well also be refined to the point where they get as many operations per clock...both neck-and-neck on power efficiency.
All said, I'm both excited and doubtful in intel's ability. Microsoft is becoming irrelevant at an amazing speed...perhaps it's intel's turn as well. Wintel? Armdroid? A mix of the two?
Exciting times. Bring on the competition.
Intel never had something called "black editions". They have processors known as "Extreme editions" which are the highest quality bin CPU's which did not get chosen for the Xeon server cpus. These costs $999.
The next batch would be the second highest binned ones which would costs ~$500. Then the next are the average ones which passed all the tests but wasn't as high quality as the higher end models. These are the $200-300 ones.
The rest probably get thrown out.
Now the their integrated solution is a step foward in providing all in one solutions. They did not locking out video card makers who make discrete chipsets which absolutely crushes the integrated HD 2000/3000's. What makes these integrated solutions so attractive is the fact the their intel sync (?) encoding and other stuff is literally mind blowing.
You probably don't even know what you're talking about... like seriously? BE's are AMD's.... video makers are mainly dedicated with PCI-e interfaces....
*Edit*
Intel innovates crazily when pushed heavily. AMD punished Intel for its pentium 4 and forced them either step up or be irrelevant and stepped up they did... conroe... nehalam... clarksfield...sandy bridge.. ivy bridge...
I have no reason to believe if Arm shoved into intel into a corner like AMD did, they wouldn't pounce like they did on amd... let's just say.. if history has taught us anything... I' would feel really bad for ARM due to intels insane budgets, R&D, and advanced chipmaking facilities..
lilotimz said:
Intel never had something called "black editions". They have processors known as "Extreme editions" which are the highest quality bin CPU's which did not get chosen for the Xenon's server cpus. These costs $999.
The next batch would be the second highest binned ones , which would costs ~$500. Then the next are the average ones which did passed all the tests but wasn't as high quality as the higher end models. These are the $200-300 ones.
The rest probably get thrown out.
Now the their integrated solution is a step foward in providing all in one solutions. Not locking out video card makers who make discrete chipsets which absolutely crushes the integrated HD 2000/3000's. What makes these integrated solutions so attractive is the fact the their intel sync (?) encoding and other stuff is literally mind blowing.
You probably don't even know what you're talking about... like seriously? BE's are AMD's.... video makers are mainly dedicated with PCI-e interfaces....
*Edit*
Intel innovates crazily when pushed heavily. AMD punished Intel for its pentium 4 and forced them either step up or be irrelevant and stepped up they did... conroe... nehalam... clarksfield...sandy bridge.. ivy bridge...
I have no reason to believe if Arm shoved into intel into a corner like AMD did... let's just say.. if history has taught us anything... I' would feel really bad for ARM due to intels insane budgets, R&D, and advanced chipmaking facilities..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Intel Black Edition ... Intel Extreme Edition ... the idea was "top of the line". Look at the point I'm trying to make, not the wrong words I used.
Intel may claim that their integrated graphics are great for many thing, but look at the larger picture... pay premium dollar for the ability to use the video card of your choice !!
EDIT: The cheapest processor comes with integrated graphics, while the most expensive one comes without it. I remember when I bought my laptop a few years back (1st generation Intel i5). I was reading about Intel not allowing manufacturers to put other cards in order to bypass the integrated one. In the end, I bought this Intel i5 laptop with NVidia GeForce 325M with Optimus. Check to see how Optimus works with Intel's integrated card and you'll understand what I meant in my previous post.
In the end, the main point I'm trying to get across, is that Intel's products are great (except their video cards) but their marketing scheme will hurt the consumers if they take control of the mobile processor.
All the info by the commenter not withstanding, I have a hard time taking anyone who uses "effect" instead of "affect" seriously.
Sent from my SPH-D710 using xda premium
It's just a rumor or speculation that i've heard and i wanted to tell to you
Actually Intel isn't the biggest Phone processors seller and the few Intel-Powered Smartphones are running Android but i think that will change. Why? Because Intel and Microsoft have a very good relationship, Windows 8 will boost the sells of Windows Phone devices and there's another rummor that Windows 8 devices will be based on NT kernel. Mix all this information and i think you'll get the answer.
What do you think?
IvoFajardo said:
It's just a rumor or speculation that i've heard and i wanted to tell to you
Actually Intel isn't the biggest Phone processors seller and the few Intel-Powered Smartphones are running Android but i think that will change. Why? Because Intel and Microsoft have a very good relationship, Windows 8 will boost the sells of Windows Phone devices and there's another rummor that Windows 8 devices will be based on NT kernel. Mix all this information and i think you'll get the answer.
What do you think?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Windows 8 is based off the NT Kernel. Chances are desktop builds will be compiled for x86, tablet builds will be built for ARM (you can read numerous articles on the internet).
The NT kernel is processor-independent
It's already a while ago, but once Windows NT was available for X86, Alpha, MIPS and PowerPC - four different CPU architectures. The Windows NT kernel is and always was processor-independent.
The step now from X86 / X64 to ARM is smaller than many people think. Anyway, I think Microsoft is pretty free to run any version of Windows it wants on both CPUs.
And about that especially good relationship between Intel and Windows: That may have its best days already in the past. Intel can't like much Microsoft's ARM adventures, and likewise Microsoft eyes Intel's Linux excurses with a sharp eye.
Intel Atom Ivy Bridge seem to be legit , lol...
Only some years ago we saw the first Android USB sticks, they were just a way to put the same hardware that most of mobile phones had but without including screen or camera...
Summary? Quite cheap gadgets with lots of possibilities. The mini PCs had been created!
The best of them was that they directly came with hundreds of thousands of applications (from GooglePlay) and almost everybody knew how to use them since it was the same Android platform they were using on their smartphones.
Beelink was one of the companies from the Shenzhen area (created on 2010) who specialized their activity on home entertainment equipment. And once again, as well as many other companies started manufacturing components until the moment they had cumulated enough knowledge to be able to design and manufacture their own (full products).
But then, on the traditional path of development, Beelink has chosen one interesting partnership: Intel.
Yes, with the huge development of Android devices, some chip manufacturers like Qualcomm, or more recently Mediatek, have experimented a great growth. So in 2013 Intel presented a new strategy focused on recovering this big part of the market they were loosing. And so we started to see a very small (but growing number) of devices equipped with Intel processors.
Of course most of the manufacturers are still presenting Android-based devices, because of 2 reasons: licence price and mobile oriented platform with already a great ecosystem of apps.
However, with the arrival of Intel to the playground, it opened the gate to other operating systems like Windows. And needless to say that Microsoft was also really interested on taking some part of the mobile market.
Putting together the acquired knowledge on MiniPCs and the possibilities of an Intel processor, Beelink bring to us the Intel Pocket P2, a powerful device within the smallest possible place, just a little bigger than an USB flash drive.
Just plugging it into our TV and we will have a full PC with big screen, offering a resolution of FullHD (1920x1080) perfect not only for work since we will have available Microsoft Office and all other Windows software, but a perfect gaming station.
We all know that Windows has the biggest catalog of games.
To make all that possible this small stick has inside a Quad-core Intel Z3735F processor inside and 2GB of DDR3 RAM memory, and all the rest we may need is already included: dual WiFi b/g/n antenna, BT 4.0, 32GB of flash drive for storage and of course the infrared sensor for a remote controller. On the side we will find SD card reader, micro USB for OTG purposes, jack output for audio and HDMI for plugging the screen.
The OS included is Windows 8.1 that will surely be updated to Windows 10 as Microsoft announced recently.
So, we have a very interesting device, I never imagined such an easy way to have a real Windows PC with tiny power consumption that we can bring to anyway for less than 100€.
I leave you here some pictures and the full table of specs
CPU Intel® Bay Trail CR,Z3735F
Graphics lntel® HD Graphics
Bluetooth BT 4.0
RAM DDR3 2GB
ROM Onboard eMMC Flash 32GB
Connectivity WIFI IEEE 802.11b/g/n ; Dual 2.400 GHz ~ 2.497 GHz (2.4 GHz ISM Band) ; IR Sensor ; BT 4.0; USB2.0; OTG Port
OS Support Windows 8.1
Power LED
Power Button
DC in Jack
SD Card Slot
Power management Adapter 5V 2A
Multi -language
Keyboard Qwerty keyboard
Support original ecology and AZW custom UI
Work Environment 5°C--35°C，30%--90% Humidity
Storage Environment -20°C--60°C，10%--90% Humidity
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Thanks OP. Do you have troubles when activated Windows 8.1?
Because i heard people said they have troubles on activating the system on their Axgio mini-pc.
Got a hot deal on fatwallet: http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/hot-deals/1444331/?newest=1#last
Someone's talking about Windows 8.1 activation problem on it
Nice review. Been wondering about getting one myself.
Is it running Windows 8.1 with Bing?
I know some of these have some issues with the windows license (windows license is free for tablets <8" but this is no tablet), like the Pipo X7 (hence the more expensive Pipo X7S)
Good product though, still have some concerns about the operating experience and overheating problem caused by long time working. Is it easy to connect to the screen?
I also read a lot of user reviews that Windows wasnt activated and they also couldnt. The problem is that Windows 8.1 Bing editions is just free for tablets <8" I think. And this device is actually a desktop because having a HDMI. So youd need a normal Windows 8.1 license for it. I would buy one too but I cant find any information about the pirated Windows license or which ones have activated version on them.
mkdr said:
I also read a lot of user reviews that Windows wasnt activated and they also couldnt. The problem is that Windows 8.1 Bing editions is just free for tablets <8" I think. And this device is actually a desktop because having a HDMI. So youd need a normal Windows 8.1 license for it. I would buy one too but I cant find any information about the pirated Windows license or which ones have activated version on them.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Iv got the Ainol,pipo x7 & the beelink pocket p1 all of them came with windows 8.1 bing fully activated NOT pirated..The pipo also comes with office 365 which alone is worth £50 but the pipo does over heat a lot
blinkone said:
Iv got the Ainol,pipo x7 & the beelink pocket p1 all of them came with windows 8.1 bing fully activated NOT pirated..The pipo also comes with office 365 which alone is worth £50 but the pipo does over heat a lot
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ive read all kind of other reviews, people got a 30days trial and it was activated. Also, even if the Bing edition is installed and activated, it's pirated, because like I said, Bing Edition is just allowed by MS on <8" devices, and this one has not even a display, it's a desktop PC.
Have the P1
Seems pretty good. Windows 8.1 activated no problem.
Reasonably snappy, haven't got past luke warm so far.
Have it running as media server for a Squeezbox & running well.
Managed to delete or corrupt the Bluetooth driver & struggling to fine a copy online...let me know if you can help!
No support online anywhere that I can fine... no response from Beelink.
Anyone know where might find appropriate driver?
I have the beelink p1 and the p2 both came activated even after a system refresh.
But I'm not seeing the windows 10 upgrade pop up on both. I also have a linx 8 tablet also running 8.1 with bing and that's not seeing it either. Hopefully win10 will be coming to these devices.
The P1 does get a little hot after a shot time of use but runs amazingly well.
The P2 runs cool no heat cooking. But it doesn't say in the specs but comes with a built in battery.
I think i'm going to try the P2... Nice price right now.
Thanks for the info
mdabar said:
Only some years ago we saw the first Android USB sticks, they were just a way to put the same hardware that most of mobile phones had but without including screen or camera...
Summary? Quite cheap gadgets with lots of possibilities. The mini PCs had been created!
The best of them was that they directly came with hundreds of thousands of applications (from GooglePlay) and almost everybody knew how to use them since it was the same Android platform they were using on their smartphones.
Beelink was one of the companies from the Shenzhen area (created on 2010) who specialized their activity on home entertainment equipment. And once again, as well as many other companies started manufacturing components until the moment they had cumulated enough knowledge to be able to design and manufacture their own (full products).
But then, on the traditional path of development, Beelink has chosen one interesting partnership: Intel.
Yes, with the huge development of Android devices, some chip manufacturers like Qualcomm, or more recently Mediatek, have experimented a great growth. So in 2013 Intel presented a new strategy focused on recovering this big part of the market they were loosing. And so we started to see a very small (but growing number) of devices equipped with Intel processors.
Of course most of the manufacturers are still presenting Android-based devices, because of 2 reasons: licence price and mobile oriented platform with already a great ecosystem of apps.
However, with the arrival of Intel to the playground, it opened the gate to other operating systems like Windows. And needless to say that Microsoft was also really interested on taking some part of the mobile market.
Putting together the acquired knowledge on MiniPCs and the possibilities of an Intel processor, Beelink bring to us the Intel Pocket P2, a powerful device within the smallest possible place, just a little bigger than an USB flash drive.
Just plugging it into our TV and we will have a full PC with big screen, offering a resolution of FullHD (1920x1080) perfect not only for work since we will have available Microsoft Office and all other Windows software, but a perfect gaming station.
We all know that Windows has the biggest catalog of games.
To make all that possible this small stick has inside a Quad-core Intel Z3735F processor inside and 2GB of DDR3 RAM memory, and all the rest we may need is already included: dual WiFi b/g/n antenna, BT 4.0, 32GB of flash drive for storage and of course the infrared sensor for a remote controller. On the side we will find SD card reader, micro USB for OTG purposes, jack output for audio and HDMI for plugging the screen.
The OS included is Windows 8.1 that will surely be updated to Windows 10 as Microsoft announced recently.
So, we have a very interesting device, I never imagined such an easy way to have a real Windows PC with tiny power consumption that we can bring to anyway for less than 100€.
I leave you here some pictures and the full table of specs
CPU Intel® Bay Trail CR,Z3735F
Graphics lntel® HD Graphics
Bluetooth BT 4.0
RAM DDR3 2GB
ROM Onboard eMMC Flash 32GB
Connectivity WIFI IEEE 802.11b/g/n ; Dual 2.400 GHz ~ 2.497 GHz (2.4 GHz ISM Band) ; IR Sensor ; BT 4.0; USB2.0; OTG Port
OS Support Windows 8.1
Power LED
Power Button
DC in Jack
SD Card Slot
Power management Adapter 5V 2A
Multi -language
Keyboard Qwerty keyboard
Support original ecology and AZW custom UI
Work Environment 5°C--35°C，30%--90% Humidity
Storage Environment -20°C--60°C，10%--90% Humidity
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Got this unit about 2 months ago, installed Windows 10 as soon it was available and it works perfectly
Unlike the original Intel compute stick, no problems with BT devices and no noise from fan.
Using it as a HTPC with Kodi (now on 15.2) and could not be more pleased.
It also runs Asphalt 8 with zero problems (and Xbox One gamepad support), so its ideal for a simple but usable Windows PC, either for entertainment or simple workstation.
One thing that i can't found is a method to access the firmware to unlock the CPU speed (its locked at max 1.33Ghz, so turbo mode is never activated if needed), anyone got suggestions?
Mirror please,software is unreachable
Now price of stick is amazing i got one already. But i do have problems with activation and downloading stuffs from baidu ,drivers etc. Please some one to make mirrors for latest firmware ,drivers-old ways to download from baidu didn't work .This is support page i try to write to this guys ,but more than a month zero answer.This is link of there download page,if someone know how to download without Chinese applications ,please do share
armagani said:
Now price of stick is amazing i got one already. But i do have problems with activation and downloading stuffs from baidu ,drivers etc. Please some one to make mirrors for latest firmware ,drivers-old ways to download from baidu didn't work .This is support page i try to write to this guys ,but more than a month zero answer.This is link of there download page,if someone know how to download without Chinese applications ,please do share
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What are you talking about? The P2 comes with Win8.1 in English and ZERO software from 3rd parties.
You can stick a USB bootable storage device on one of the USB ports and install any OS you want from scratch...
If you choose windows 10 or even 8 the hardware is all detected and supported out of the box, plus windows update will install the latest ones. As for firmware, as far as i know there aren't any updates/backups/images... you are stuck with the UEFI that came from factory.