Develop Bugs

Something Needs to Change

All,
I've decided that rather than start attacking some of the forum users whose conduct I don't agree with, I'd write an opinion and a suggestion.
Let me start by saying, that I love XDA. Before I became a member, I spent countless hours reading through threads on these forums. Admittedly, prior to discovering the Nexus One I was an iPhone user, and apple fanboy. I can honestly say that XDA helped cure me of that.
I am not a developer. I use these forums as a method of learning how to enhance my phone; to build a working knowledge of Android; with a hope to one day I will be able to repay the Devs who helped me with original work of my own. Lately, as many people have already stated, I've noticed that the quality of discussion in many forum threads has gone down significantly. The mods do an excellent job of keeping threads on topic, and cleaning useless posts, however, I think its getting to be too much for them. This is my attempt to provide advice to new users, and to suggest a possible course of action to help correct the conduct that is a cancer on this great site.
I've seen threads where Dev's are threatened if they don't release ROMs, where people demand ETAs. Team Hacksung, who worked tirelessly to release CM7 for the SGS2 actually had to threaten to leave XDA to bring order to their development thread. I've also seen threads degrade into rascism and discrimination, threats of violence and bigotry. None of this is acceptable, and will serve no other goal than forcing developers to leave XDA.
People need to understand a few things:
[*] Dev's work is done on their own free-time
[*] Dev's work is done for no compensation other than the gratitude of their peers and the occasional donation.
[*] Dev's are under no obligation to release ANYTHING to the members of XDA - If they don't feel their work is ready, or they aren't ready to share it, you have no right to demand it released.
[*] Access to Dev work is a privilege that can easily be revoked; NOT A RIGHT.
In addition to the excellent and trying job that the moderators already undertake, I suggest the following apply to anyone not recognized as a developer:
[*] There is a 3 strike rule with regards to posting in each development section. Any posts deemed to be off-topic, not-relevant, hateful, malicious, rascist, etc should be deemed a strike. I would not include obvious jokes, sincere mistakes, attempts to be helpful, etc as a strike. My goal is not to discourage participation, but to discourage comments designed to be harmful.
[*]Strike 1 is a warning, Strike 2 is a one week ban from posting within the development forums, strike 3 is a permanent ban from posting within the development forums.
Moderators would be responsible for determining what is a strike based on a pre-determined criteria.
My 2c, take it or leave it..
C0mbe

"In a perfect world..."

github said:
"In a perfect world..."
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This is an internet forum, not the world... you can be as punitive as you like...
Sent from my SCH-I510 using XDA Premium App

I think your suggestions are too lenient. In the six years I've been here, the mods have only gotten more and more lax in the rules with the influx of Android users. It used to be that if you said something retarded or offensive, it was an automatic ban. Now, it seems as though it takes an act of congress to get an abusive user removed. Don't worry, though. Their are some changes coming soon that will help out tremendously.

Rule with an Iron Fist!!!
I agree and it's quite simple. Have respect and decency toward others and remember this is a "family oriented" site/community and that needs to be respected. I have stated my advice elsewhere in the forums that XDA needs to start ruling with an "IRON FIST" and keep this site enjoyabe and respectable as it should be. I stand behind that and always will. It is the best way to run the forums otherwise it will turn into a battleground of idiots envoking arguments, name calling, etc. I personally take offense to people who attack others in the forums and elsewhere on XDA. I have probably gotten a little out of line in the past a couple of times but that was due to others' attacks and flaming.
If you feel you should be allowed freedom of speech and explicit visual interpretation/expressionon on XDA, then this isn't the community for you. XDA holds the right to moderate it's site and forums as they see fit. In this case XDA chooses to run a family friendly site instead of a free-for-all slugfest site and I'm in favor of that. This is not directed to anyone in particular, nor do I pass judgement on anybody it's just my thoughts. Leave the hate/foul mouth comments in your world not here @XDA.
I think XDA is the best "go-to" site for all smartphone development needs and resources and that is how everybody should want to keep it. I bet most of you will agree. Do your part by helping and respecting others AT ALL TIMES. Please don't post hate comments, intentional troll provoking/explicit behavior/expressions, hateful/attitude remarks here at XDA.
Thanks for reading.

C0mbe said:
This is an internet forum, not the world... you can be as punitive as you like...
Sent from my SCH-I510 using XDA Premium App
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I didn't want to elaborate, but meh I'm bored. You are not the first to post about this, and won't be the last. It will get buried, and life will go on. I mean, there was already a thread about this in this very forum... and it's one of the top 5 right now.
It's a world wide forum. People will post stuff you don't like. PM a moderator and tell them about it and move on. Or use the ignore list. There are new users both new to phones AND the internet/computers. They will make mistakes and ask questions (ETAs and such). At the end of the day, it's the internet. Does it really bother you so much that someone "demanded" an ETA? Made a disrespectful comment?
An old saying works wonders here. If I had $1 for every "XDA is dying" post, I'd be very wealthy.
P.S. I also heard that the sky is falling.
cajunflavoredbob said:
I think your suggestions are too lenient. In the six years I've been here, the mods have only gotten more and more lax in the rules with the influx of Android users. It used to be that if you said something retarded or offensive, it was an automatic ban. Now, it seems as though it takes an act of congress to get an abusive user removed. Don't worry, though. Their are some changes coming soon that will help out tremendously.
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Yes, bans! bans! more bans! RAWR BANHAMMER. That's the way to encourage growth. Everyone knows that a police state is what is needed.

github said:
I didn't want to elaborate, but meh I'm bored. You are not the first to post about this, and won't be the last. It will get buried, and life will go on. I mean, there was already a thread about this in this very forum... and it's one of the top 5 right now.
It's a world wide forum. People will post stuff you don't like. PM a moderator and tell them about it and move on. Or use the ignore list. There are new users both new to phones AND the internet/computers. They will make mistakes and ask questions (ETAs and such). At the end of the day, it's the internet. Does it really bother you so much that someone "demanded" an ETA? Made a disrespectful comment?
An old saying works wonders here. If I had $1 for every "XDA is dying" post, I'd be very wealthy.
P.S. I also heard that the sky is falling.
Yes, bans! bans! more bans! RAWR BANHAMMER. That's the way to encourage growth. Everyone knows that a police state is what is needed.
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This has nothing to do with site growth. It never has. If you break the rules, you get punished. It's that simple. You can try ignoring useless or inflaming comments all you want, but all that does is allow the behavior to continue. Obviously, catering to the behavior and becoming more lenient didn't work. The result is that the mods are now beginning to crack down harder again. This is the direction the site is now going. This site is about developers, not troubleshooting.
Users should learn manners and respect or go somewhere else. That's the main point. It isn't our job here to teach people the manners their parents could not. That's why the site isn't named XDA-Babysittingservice.com.

It the world wide web there are bound to be idiots out there. If they start banning these people there be just me and the mods left!!
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA Premium App

github said:
At the end of the day, it's the internet. Does it really bother you so much that someone "demanded" an ETA? Made a disrespectful comment?
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No, each and every demand for an ETA or disrespectful comment does not bother me that much, and of course I understand that its the internet. Its very easy to behave like an idiot when you are hiding behind pixels. Its really the totality of the circumstances that I am referring to. The object of XDA is for individuals to share development information with the common goal of improving Android phones. If the purpose of the site is lost in all the ETAs and disrespectful comments, then what is the point? Certainly, the point is not to lose developers...
github said:
P.S. I also heard that the sky is falling.
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Call me whatever you like, your admission that there are multiple complaints like mine on each sub-forum is proof that there is a problem with member conduct on the site. And I did say that my OP was my own opinion, and my 2c.
github said:
Yes, bans! bans! more bans! RAWR BANHAMMER. That's the way to encourage growth. Everyone knows that a police state is what is needed.
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Who says you need a police state? I'm merely talking about adding rules to encourage and enforce order on the forums. And no one wants growth for the sake of growth. A small site that is efficient and has a high number of contributing members will always be better than a large site where the sheer volume of junk posts dilute the contributing members.
Plus, at the end of the day, all anyone really has on the internet is a voice. Thus, the ban remains the most effective method of controlling poor conduct.

It appears you guys have not read the site admins latest announcement...I advice u do

TheRomMistress said:
It appears you guys have not read the site admins latest announcement...I advice u do
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That's fine and all. But does it address the time it takes to actually report problem posts (instead of just complain about them)? Having to PM forum mods that either gave up on your forum, or don't even visit that forum isn't exactly encouraging.
Or will the forums stop becoming void of moderators (like over in EVO 4G land, where I can't remember the last time we had moderator participation besides the banhammer here and there, or moved threads that I report). Will we start seeing more moderator participation?
Of course, my last posts here were worded to spark conversation (and that they did). I am happy to see this latest development, but still feel that it falls short of what is needed. Hopefully there is more in the works.

github said:
That's fine and all. But does it address the time it takes to actually report problem posts (instead of just complain about them)? Having to PM forum mods that either gave up on your forum, or don't even visit that forum isn't exactly encouraging.
Or will the forums stop becoming void of moderators (like over in EVO 4G land, where I can't remember the last time we had moderator participation besides the banhammer here and there, or moved threads that I report). Will we start seeing more moderator participation?
Of course, my last posts here were worded to spark conversation (and that they did). I am happy to see this latest development, but still feel that it falls short of what is needed. Hopefully there is more in the works.
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The report system is being reworked. The site improvements will take some time to roll out fully. Things are going back to the earlier days here. Everyone needs to learn how to act right or reap what they sow.

github said:
That's fine and all. But does it address the time it takes to actually report problem posts (instead of just complain about them)? Having to PM forum mods that either gave up on your forum, or don't even visit that forum isn't exactly encouraging.
Or will the forums stop becoming void of moderators (like over in EVO 4G land, where I can't remember the last time we had moderator participation besides the banhammer here and there, or moved threads that I report). Will we start seeing more moderator participation?
Of course, my last posts here were worded to spark conversation (and that they did). I am happy to see this latest development, but still feel that it falls short of what is needed. Hopefully there is more in the works.
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cajunflavoredbob said:
The report system is being reworked. The site improvements will take some time to roll out fully. Things are going back to the earlier days here. Everyone needs to learn how to act right or reap what they sow.
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What he said

Thanks. I actually moved this into it's own post/question, as it is kind of offtopic from what OP was discussing.

Dev section for devs only

Can we make the development section only accessible to rom developers? That will stop all the questions and clutter in the development section and will force people to ask questions in the q&a and will have it so if people wanna thank the development they just hit the thank you button instead of posting it.
I think it would be cleaner. Since only devs can post they can help each other out and post relevant code and hacks.
What does everyone think?
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-T989 using Tapatalk

I think it's a great idea as long as the devs post a 2nd thread in Q&A for us.
Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2

I don't speak for the dev's but from what I've read they seem to get helped by user comments. Now the random thanks and "OMG"s are useless but I think user comments are very helpful, lets developers identify bugs faster and see if there is a bug that develops if a user installs in a certain way or not...

I don't think this approach would be feasible. Mainly, how do you define someone as a developer? Many people have all sorts of working knowledge regarding Linux and Android and can provide valuable information to ROM developers yet they themselves would not be considered a developer.
Furthermore, developers tend to want feedback regarding bugs and workaround for their ROM's.
Just my 2 cents.

Some of the devs don't mind the comments and want as much feedback as they can get so I vote no

This thread is about as useful the posts it's griping about.
Sent from my SGH-T989 using xda premium

there is nothing wrong with the dev section now besides some users lack self control. if a dev wants the thread to be dev only and has a Q&A thread then practice good judgement and self control and use the Q&A thread if needed.
I don't mind users posting in my threads in the dev section but that's just me.
I don't feel crippling the functionality of a forum board to stop people who practice poor judgement and cannot follow directions from posting, is a good idea for the community as a whole.

-Mr. X- said:
there is nothing wrong with the dev section now besides some users lack self control. if a dev wants the thread to be dev only and has a Q&A thread then practice good judgement and self control and use the Q&A thread if needed.
I don't mind users posting in my threads in the dev section but that's just me.
I don't feel crippling the functionality of a forum board to stop people who practice poor judgement and cannot follow directions from posting, is a good idea for the community as a whole.
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Totally agree..
Sent from my Kindle Fire using xda premium

how does one become a dev if they just start deving or has yet to gain RD status?
Totally not needed. If a dev only wants 1 page for their thread they can immediately close the thread and just update the OP when there is a new update. Might as well tell the devs just PM each other lol. not trying to come off mean, but giving some blunt scenarios.

I just feel it would be sort of like a dev only hang out where aspiring developers or can get constructive feedback from fellow developers.
For example let's say someone new has a rom they want to put on the development section. They first post it in the general section, then after a certain "review" process by the xda members it gets upgraded into the development section.
I'm not saying the dev section is bad, but I feel as this is a dev forum, it only makes sense that devs have their own section to discuss codes and hacks, where they can mutually grow and learn.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-T989 using Tapatalk

Teo032 said:
how does one become a dev if they just start deving or has yet to gain RD status?
Totally not needed. If a dev only wants 1 page for their thread they can immediately close the thread and just update the OP when there is a new update. Might as well tell the devs just PM each other lol. not trying to come off mean, but giving some blunt scenarios.
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Or what about the users like me who just do things on occasion and have chose to not get "Dev" status. want to throw me out in the cold?
Like i said above, with explanation. this is not a good idea and should not be deployed in any form.

-Mr. X- said:
Or what about the users like me who just do things on occasion and have chose to not get "Dev" status. want to throw me out in the cold?
Like i said above, with explanation. this is not a good idea and should not be deployed in any form.
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Well they can have sort of like a "coder" status where you would be able to contribute. I think what I'm trying to get to is having the dev section be mostly about helping other devs and improving roms rather than "thanks a bunch, this is my dd ". I'd want to be able to enter a rom thread and just see information about the rom, improvements that have been made, and when people are replying , they are exchanging ideas on how to fix certain bugs.
I think pm'ing is okay, but not everyone can learn how the process works. And someone like me for example that's trying to learn how to develop roms won't be able to follow the development conversation.
It seems I'm the only one that feels this way I guess.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-T989 using Tapatalk

hunterhp said:
Well they can have sort of like a "coder" status where you would be able to contribute. I think what I'm trying to get to is having the dev section be mostly about helping other devs and improving roms rather than "thanks a bunch, this is my dd ". I'd want to be able to enter a rom thread and just see information about the rom, improvements that have been made, and when people are replying , they are exchanging ideas on how to fix certain bugs.
I think pm'ing is okay, but not everyone can learn how the process works. And someone like me for example that's trying to learn how to develop roms won't be able to follow the development conversation.
It seems I'm the only one that feels this way I guess.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-T989 using Tapatalk
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I get what you're saying, but in the long run it will be more counter productive to the dev community then people posting "thanks this is my dd"

Or yaldak who has less than 100 hundred posts clearly this is harder than people self regulating and posting q and as

I would be disappointed to see the dev forums go to strictly dev's. I am relatively new to xda. I do not make unnecessary comments and I have donated to 2 devs as an appreciation of their work. I also like to keep up on what is working with new roms or not. It is really the beauty of Android that devs are able to do this at all. Establishing the rules of who could post in such a forum would be interesting as well. maybe stickies at the beginning of each dev forum (i haevn't looked to see if its there) to show how to do log cats might be more helpful and allow the rest of us to provide solid feedback instead of "Thanks" or "thanks...this is my DD" maybe a separate button for This is my daily driver would eliminate a lot of the crap?

What I want to know is how many threads do we need about not posting rhetoric in the dev section, how to regulate the forums, etc...? In the end, this is the same rhetoric clogging other sections.
Sent from my SGH-T989 using xda premium

jonathan3579 said:
What I want to know is how many threads do we need about not posting rhetoric in the dev section, how to regulate the forums, etc...?
Sent from my SGH-T989 using xda premium
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They probably would go away if threads like the more roms more roms didn't appear in the dev section where the op posted a question in the wrong section then didn't feel like owning up to it so he proceeded to be a jerk to xraver and other posters.

Personally I like the dev board just the way it is
That is the reason I made this thread:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1592170
Update: oops...didnt mean the above link
Meant the ics read me first topic
Not to be over dramatic, but to just help people get started and answer some common questions. The "thanks" posts, while plentiful, are a good thing to me personally because it tells me how many people are having a good experience with the ROM and/or mod. I don't like to shun users in threads; I feel that I do not need to police them. No matter what mechanism we put in place people will still make these posts. That is why we have moderators, to take care of the problem when it gets out of hand. And that is why--when being an OP in the Dev section-- its good to be very detailed and verbose (but not over complex!)
Just my 2 cents, and my personal policy on my own topics.
I am strongly against limiting the dev boards to devs only. I am completely for helping cut down redundancy.

I think that each dev should have control over there threads. Some like the thanks some think its a waste. I side with both, i will say that the devs that do not want thanks as posts should make that clear in the op. The only problem with the threads is there is way to many pages to read thru for sometimes nothing about the rom. I say to fix this someone somehow should keep the op uptodate with any issue that comes up. Now none has to read all the pages to get the info and i know its a lot to ask but its just a thought.

I have always thought the that if you aren't posting a log cat to the bug you speaking about, it's not helping the dev that much. IMO, and I know it don't mean much, if you aren't posting a log cat, don't post in the rom thread. Q&A threads can handle everything else.
Sent from my SGH-T989 using xda premium

[All XDA Members] Feedback/Recommendations for XDA

After reading a few threads and comments from our members I thought it may be worthwhile to create a Feedback, Recommendations or Idea's thread for XDA. We want to improve our forum for developers and the normal users.
So, rather than sending a PM to a Moderator, please feel free to leave any feedback or idea's you may have to improve XDA, so we can discuss them properly, openly, with the plan to hopefully implement the ideas which are good.
It's sole purpose is to improve XDA and collect your thoughts and idea's.
We will all be monitoring this thread, and someone will hopefully reply without much delay.
Thanks
Rick
Moderator/Developer Committee
Edits done by Clark Joseph Kent to better support XDA.

XDA-Developers needs to be more about developers
While I see that time and users have made XDA less about development and more about user support, I think XDA has gone too far in that direction.
Developers need a place to DISCUSS development.
The "General" subforums are too overwhelmed with threads like "Post pictures of your phone", "list of threads linked from other places" and other random "general user" stuff.
The "Q&A" subforums are now a place where moderators chase newbies to. The most technical question you might find in the Q&A section these days is "I just bricked my phone, what do I do?" (Usually, the answers are either making fun of the OP or telling him/her to search.)
The "Development" subforums, which seems like a logical place to discuss development, is now reserved for people to post finish products only and beg for donations - It's the XDA version of the "app store." There's no actual "development" discussion allowed.
Here's what we don't have anymore (but desperately need):
A place where a kernel developer could start a thread discussing the pitfalls of turning off processor cores on a particular device when the device is idle. That would likely lead into a discussion on possible ways to optimize the IN/OUT code for the cores, which would actually *gasp* promote development.
A place where a person might post a "HOW TO" document describing how to modify a stock firmware for a specific device to override carrier controlled lock downs. (For example, editing the CSC for a samsung device.)
A place for development related DISCUSSION - not just a subform for "I cobbled together mods I copied from other people into a so-called ROM and will now beg you to donate to me and press my "thanks" button."
XDA promotes itself as a DEVELOPERS FORUM. The definition of "forum" is "A meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged." Doesn't that seem to indicate that development related discussion would be encouraged here?
(continued...)
---------- Post added at 11:07 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:51 AM ----------
So, the obvious question about my post above is how do you moderate a "developers discussion" subforum?
I honestly don't see a problem with that. You make posting access to that subforum by request only. The access should be granted pretty freely but with a note reminding the user that any non-development discussions will result in loss of access to those subforums. Plain and simple. Any RD's or ERD's would automatically be given access without the need to post a request.
Only developers should moderate those subforums, as the fact is that XDA has some moderators that have no clue whatsoever what "development" is.
I'd even go so far as to suggest that XDA's ERDs would be given final say in moderating those subforums. Actually, it might be a good idea to give ERDs final say in moderating all the development related forums - including the existing so-called "development" and "original development" subforums.
...
I'll have one more post to discuss the current vagueness of the rules and the random enforcement of them...

Gary, while I agree with many of your key points one I disagree with is that only elite developers (who don't have the time) are the ones who should have the 'final say' with regards to moderation, and that they are the best qualified to do so. Given a good set of rules to use as guidelines, any level headed person who is committed to helping XDA move along smoothly is qualified to be a moderator. I am not a developer, however, I've been moderating forums for years now. People are people no matter what the subject. You and I have discussed the rules, which are being worked on. I like the idea of a 'developer only', invite only forum. I think it's time to make that happen. Given that I am so not a developer, I know when I'm over my head - and we have people on the team who moderators like me can turn to. Moderators are here to help, not hinder - I think we can work this all out so the developers are happier, users learn, and moderators moderate

garyd9 said:
I'd even go so far as to suggest that XDA's ERDs would be given final say in moderating those subforums. Actually, it might be a good idea to give ERDs final say in moderating all the development related forums - including the existing so-called "development" and "original development" subforums.
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Some interesting points you've listed, which I can honestly say are being looked at, however your point above, I'm gonna have to disagree with. The ERD's are extremely busy with actual development, as are most, if not all the developers. If we where to also ask the ERDs to moderate all the development related forums, they'd have no time to develop

I didn't suggest that ERD's would be constantly moderating them - only that they'd have the opportunity (if they chose it) to be the final say. Who do you trust more to make an informed decision about what is development and what isnt':
Entropy512 or ModJohnCanBarelyRoot?
I think the ERD's are more involved (at least in reading) than many people think, and XDA should respect their knowledge and ability by giving them the option of stepping in saying that, despite what a non-developer moderator might think, this is or isn't dev related.
Anyway, it's just a suggestion.

garyd9 said:
I didn't suggest that ERD's would be constantly moderating them - only that they'd have the opportunity (if they chose it) to be the final say. Who do you trust more to make an informed decision about what is development and what isnt':
Entropy512 or ModJohnCanBarelyRoot?
I think the ERD's are more involved (at least in reading) than many people think, and XDA should respect their knowledge and ability by giving them the option of stepping in saying that, despite what a non-developer moderator might think, this is or isn't dev related.
Anyway, it's just a suggestion.
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Don't get me wrong, I agree with you. I have the utmost respect for ERD's, and RD's. I'm not a developer myself, would never claim to be, but I do try and read up on things to understand them so I can make informed decisions. But likewise, I do ask developers for advice on specific things, then learn from what I'm told. In an ideal world, we'd let ERD's have the final say, maybe even RD's, but with so many in house fights amongst so called dev's, there is the potential for abuse which is what concerns me. I cannot see ERD's doing this mind you.
Again, interesting ideas which I welcome

So on to what I'm sure will be a sore subject: Rules and moderation...
I realize that XDA has grown by leaps and bounds since I first joined. Back then, there were only a handful of people geeky enough to have smartphones. Today, they are the norm. With more users there are more devices, more forums and XDA needed more moderators. That's perfectly understandable. It's also understandable that XDA has reached into the "non-developer" pool of people for moderation help.
However, the forum rules which the moderators supposedly moderate by are too vague and really don't guide users (or moderators) in the proper way to do things. It only makes matters worse then the moderators enforce those rules in seemingly random ways. Finally, when a bad decision is made by a moderator (or a decision that a user thinks is bad), there's no documented way for a user to ask for help. "Report to moderator" is pretty useless when you're only reporting to the same person you are complaining about.
If there's a guideline, it should be shared by ALL the moderators and documented so that users can understand it. The primary location to find these rules and guidelines is a post that is stickied in every single forum/subforum here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/announcement.php?a=81 If it's not in that post, then it's fairly safe to assume that users don't know about it.
So what's wrong with those rules? Well, they are pretty vague in too many cases. Vague rules lead to different people interpreting them differently (or interpreting them selectively for different people.) Here's some examples:
"Don’t use XDA to advertise your product or service. " "Commercial advertising, advertising referral links, pay per click links and other income generating methods are forbidden. Do not use xda-developers as a means to make money." -- Yet, how many people have seen a developer clearly post (or get someone else to post on their behalf) that if people don't "donate" enough money for them to buy a device, they don't development for that device. To me, that sounds like "I'll sell my development for the cost of the device."
"Off-site downloads are permitted if the site is non-commercial and does not require registration.... but may be permitted if ... the site is a relatively small personal website without commercial advertising/links (i.e. not a competitor forum-based site with purposes and aims similar to those of XDA-Developers.com.)" -- There are literally thousands of links on this website for downloads on sammobile.com or samfirmware.com. That site requires registration, advertises, and has forums that "compete" with XDA. Yet, the links are still there.
"If you are developing something that is based on the work of another Member, you MUST first seek their permission, and you must give credit to the member whose work you used." -- I think this one depends on who is violating the rule. Apparently, if its a 15 (now 16) year old kid, it's okay. Yes, I'm bitter about this one as I have had my work used (without my permission), had reported it to moderators, was told someone would look into it, and then had the report disappear into a black hole. It only made matters worse when that same person accepted "donations" given as a result of the code stolen from me. Being I ask people to donate to a children's hospital (not to me) for my work, I feel as if my work was stolen from me, and money was stolen from a child who desperately needed medical care. There's no question as to who developed the code, as gerrit/github timedate stamps don't lie. In truth, I wouldn't have minded about this so much if the little thief forwarded the donations to a real charity. I do share my work freely, but I VERY seriously resented (and still resent) my work was used for a thief's profit. To my way of thinking, there's nothing vague about the rule here - only the lack of enforcement.
Then there's the whole thing with that types of threads go into which subforums. There's simply NO consistency with this. A perfect (and recent) example is that I posted a thread in a dev subforum containing modifications for a single stock samsung package, SecLauncher2.apk. That was pushed to apps&themes by a moderator. That same moderator, however, has permitted threads for modifying only "SystemUI.apk" and only "android.policy.jar." He's also permitted completely non-development related things such as "post modem dumps here" and "stock deodex firmware."
So, not only are the rules vague, but the moderation of the rules is so inconsistent that a user can't even look to precedent to decide what is and isn't allowed.
....
I'm going to stop here. I feel like I've started ranting, and that isn't productive. The points are valid, but discussing them has brought up things I'm (obviously) very bitter about.

Really appreciate this feedback, guys. We're going to bring it forth in our monthly call with the admins and site owner. :highfive:

What about doing a forum named like "other devices root development". There are a lot of potential devices that don't get root because they don't call the devs atraction (and some of the have locked bootloaders).
I also think that there are forums from brand new "high-tech" devices that don't get development because well, there is no development for unlocking bootloaders or doing something like root for locked bootloaders, which happens on some devices. So, again, othere devices could have their chance.
mfsr98

@garyd9, no need to be bitter, I'm actually glad to hear you views, so rant away. I created this thread for this very purpose, to hear the views of the users, to better XDA
...........................
You can lead a fool to wisdom but you can't make him think! XDA, mobile wisdom, not a n00b feeding ground!!

-gary
While I agree with some of what you have said I feel if you want strictly 100% development talk then that is reserved for the RD forum for RDs to have amongst themselves... Yes there are developers that are not RDs and to that I say they should apply to become RDs. There needs to be a place to allow users to provide feedback and suggestions on things that are developed.
Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk 2

sgt. slaughter said:
-gary
While I agree with some of what you have said I feel if you want strictly 100% development talk then that is reserved for the RD forum for RDs to have amongst themselves... Yes there are developers that are not RDs and to that I say they should apply to become RDs. There needs to be a place to allow users to provide feedback and suggestions on things that are developed.
Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There is a place for that. The problem is there isn't a place for real development talk. Any real discussions get drowned out by inanity. I think with the influx of new people that noise to real development ratio has finally reached a tipping point. Then again, just how much input can Jon Q. Public have in development other than saying "I want this" or "How do I do that"? Those are user issues. We need to develop better developer solutions.

reinbeau said:
There is a place for that. The problem is there isn't a place for real development talk. Any real discussions get drowned out by inanity. I think with the influx of new people that noise to real development ratio has finally reached a tipping point. Then again, just how much input can Jon Q. Public have in development other than saying "I want this" or "How do I do that"? Those are user issues. We need to develop better developer solutions.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hence my initial suggestion, that if you want 100% dev talk take up and use the RD forum and discuss in there...
Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk 2

sgt. slaughter said:
Hence my initial suggestion, that if you want 100% dev talk take up and use the RD forum and discuss in there...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Xda DEVELOPERS. Why would a site called xda DEVELOPERS push development talk off into a corner, while non development talk reigns free?
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk 2

garyd9 said:
Xda DEVELOPERS. Why would a site called xda DEVELOPERS push development talk off into a corner, while non development talk reigns free?
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Adapt with the times as things change.... Change and adjusting is tough at times but if done so correctly its for the better of all those involved...
It is absolutely impossible to have purely 100% code talk in the dev sections. The size of the userbase is way too large for the mod team to regulate that.
Hence the RDs section will be best if you want no nonsense dev talk.
Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk 2

sgt. slaughter said:
Adapt with the times as things change.... Change and adjusting is tough at times but if done so correctly its for the better of all those involved...
...
Hence the RDs section will be best if you want no nonsense dev talk.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You may be right, but I don't want to consider the possibility that XDA-Developers might become a non-developers forums. If your suggestion is carried out, I'd predict that it'd slowly (but surely) lose it's developer core and become more and more another "android central" or other generic handheld forum.
My reasoning is simple: XDA doesn't give birth to developers - they are born and bred before they get here. However, you're suggesting that they won't have a place to "talk shop" here unless and until they achieve RD status, which I'm assuming involves a certain application and requires that some projects have already been hawked here on XDA. I'm making some assumptions about RD here, but I think it'd be fairly safe to assume that a person can't submit a professional non-XDA resume to get it. As well, you are also always going to have some devs that simply refuse to "apply" for what they consider a "silly title." More especially those that see "ROM cooks" called RD and look the other way.
What is a real developer going to do in that case? Simple: find someplace else to talk shop.
(It's almost comical the way I talk about RD here. I've been doing professional dev for a very long, have given back to the android and ppc communities, and been an XDA member for a long time - but never bothered with RD status here when the program started. So, I honestly don't know what it might involve. I might be wrong about any type of requirements.)
I guess this question moves beyond my suggestions. I've been basing things on a developer-centric forum. That's what XDA-Developers was when I joined, and quite a few FAQ's we point users to indicate that it's still intended to be. If XDA is going to move away from that, then please disregard my suggestions.
Take care
Gary

sgt. slaughter said:
Hence my initial suggestion, that if you want 100% dev talk take up and use the RD forum and discuss in there...
Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not everyone who develops is an RD - and why would you remove the ability for people to learn and share?
garyd9 said:
Xda DEVELOPERS. Why would a site called xda DEVELOPERS push development talk off into a corner, while non development talk reigns free?
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Exactly.

It seems obvious that one specific issue that everyone agrees on is that *something* needs to be done to handle "developer discussion." While there are different opinions on the best way to do that, I haven't seen anyone post anything implying that dev's talking shop is a bad thing.
Fallen Spartan, perhaps this thread can branch that particular conversation to a separate thread? That would allow this thread to deal with the other issues without confusion.
Thanks
Gary

garyd9 said:
It seems obvious that one specific issue that everyone agrees on is that *something* needs to be done to handle "developer discussion." While there are different opinions on the best way to do that, I haven't seen anyone post anything implying that dev's talking shop is a bad thing.
Fallen Spartan, perhaps this thread can branch that particular conversation to a separate thread? That would allow this thread to deal with the other issues without confusion.
Thanks
Gary
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
For the time being I'm inclined to let the discussion continue in this thread as there isn't much else being discussed here atm. If more idea's/recommendations appear, we can then create a new thread....if needed. Also, if a set way has been agreed on a particular idea/recommendation, I can create a second post updating users so its not lost within the thread

Making room for real developers again
reinbeau said:
Not everyone who develops is an RD - and why would you remove the ability for people to learn and share?
Exactly.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hello,
I am one of those professional developers in real life, who don't have the time to play silly points games just to get access to the developer part of a forum. So my "XDA status" is stuck at "noob", but I am really here to look for a place to share technical discussion with other developers.
Looking around (I have been lurking for years now), I think the following improved structure would be a good idea:
In each area (General, OS, device) there should be 4 development subforums rather than the current 1 or 2:
1. Firmware and theme releases.
One thread for each firmware/theme series, hosting download links in the top 3 posts, and support discussions in the rest of the thread.
For instance the Android Samsung Galaxy III "Firmware and theme releases" forum would have exactly one "Cyanogenmod" thread and at most one "Cyanogenmod kang by temasek" thread.
Real cooks can post new threads and create the first two replies in their own thread. Non-noob users can post in existing threads after the 3. post in the thread.
2. Free App releases.
One thread for each free app, hosting download links in the top 3 ports, and support discussions in the rest of the thread.
For instance the Android Free App releases forum would have exactly one "ROM Manager" thread.
Real developers can post new threads and create the first two replies in their own thread. Non-noob users can post in existing threads after the 3. post in the thread.
3. Unreleased experiments
One thread for each unreleased firmware/theme/free app, hosting only discussion of what should go into it, difficulties in making it etc. When released the thread is moved to 1 or 2 as appropriate, at the thread OPs command.
Only real cooks and real developers can post here, there is a limit on new threads per user per month depending on the posters general standing.
4. Developer to Developer
This hosts regular forum style discussion threads where developers for that target (OS/phone) can ask each other questions about technical details for the target, one thread per subject matter, no threads about specific projects. This is the place to discuss stuff like ("Which wceload variants are in which upstream firmwares" in a WM forum or "How are the GPIO pins on the SoC connected to other parts of the phone (in a phone specific forum) or "How does the foo() API work" (in an OS forum)).
Only real cooks and real developers can post here.
Determining access:
Now as to determining the "real cook" and "real developer" status of a user, there could be a quiz and a number of extrinsic tests for each OS. Quiz questions would be multiple choice that a real cook/devel would answer easily, but a poser would get wrong. Other tests could be "prove that you have a developer account on Market/AppStore/OVI/Marketplace" "Show that you can sign an empty sis/cab/etc. with a valid developer certificate" Because getting a new certificate/account for some of the platforms may no longer be possible or may be otherwise restricted, such
tests would just count as N correct quiz answers in determining the pass/fail.

[Q] Now that the root threads have been locked

Should we communicate new ideas and attempts via PMS or email? Did someone have an open thread elsewhere on xda? I check multiple times daily and have been attempting to learn and contribute. .since I am a noob I am typically quiet but I am down to test fur people if need be.

Dude dont even try it , leave it alone , to many emotional people in xda
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using XDA Free mobile app

GabrielOspina said:
Dude dont even try it , leave it alone , to many emotional people in xda
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using XDA Free mobile app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is a legitimate question for the q/a forum...if they choose to lock it that is their prerogative. I have never made any trouble on this site...there is little reason. This post is not meantt to be inflammatory, I just genuinely want to know if XDAS part in our quest for root is over or not...I am not breaking any forum rules in posting this.
So do people still plan to work on the note 4 using this forum or is there somewhere else I should be focusing my attention to?

nygrik said:
Should we communicate new ideas and attempts via PMS or email? Did someone have an open thread elsewhere on xda? I check multiple times daily and have been attempting to learn and contribute. .since I am a noob I am typically quiet but I am down to test fur people if need be.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=59056078&postcount=4
Because of the nonsense that goes on in root threads, no developer in their right mind will post any efforts in one of the threads in General. This is why developers have taken their efforts off of XDA and in private chats...and now no one learns anything here.
And no, you are not breaking rules by asking but you opened a thread where all the non-helping people from the other threads will have a place to go. So I am sure they will be quite proud to post something here to get this locked too.

Now Root will never be achieved, sadly.

ChefAnt said:
Now Root will never be achieved, sadly.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes. Because closing a thread full of people with nothing better to do than post "are we there yet" and then start flaming each other will totally stop all work on root. Smh....I guess you didn't even bother to read my post above.

Wasnt their a bunch of devs in that thread finding exploits ??? Guess they are pming
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using XDA Free mobile app

GabrielOspina said:
Wasnt their a bunch of devs in that thread finding exploits ??? Guess they are pming
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using XDA Free mobile app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As Kenny stated here. This is the best course to take. We know most of you guys think we are being jerks, but the bottom line is that thread is/was and would continue to be out of hand. Just because that thread is locked for now, does not mean devs are going to stop collaborating and find a method.

KennyG123 said:
Yes. Because closing a thread full of people with nothing better to do than post "are we there yet" and then start flaming each other will totally stop all work on root. Smh....I guess you didn't even bother to read my post above.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Whoa, excuse me . I read your post and found no value in it. I merely made a statement (not even remotely regarding your profound post.) We paid a substantial amount of money for this phone. I also paid for the stupid XDA premium app to support the XDA community. I also have contributed much money to many devs in the past for previous phones I've owned. I believe I have a right to be kept in the know. Whether the know is what exploit developers are using to find root or useless banter from idiotic foreigners and newbs who have no idea what is going on is completely regardless. It's a public forum. The thread was posted in the general section. There was no warning in the title that it was a "Dev thread only." It wasn't just the idiots who were posting dumb comments, it was a lot of the ATT Note 4 Community that would post 4-5 replies after the "are we there yet?" posts that got the thread shut down. I enjoyed the thread, I learned a lot about exploits that I wouldn't have ever thought to research on my own. It was purely entertainment for me and it was taken away because the moderation can never handle anything properly.
Bridge is closed, troll. Go shake your head somewhere else. Nomsayin?

ChefAnt said:
Whoa, excuse me . I read your post and found no value in it. I merely made a statement (not even remotely regarding your profound post.) We paid a substantial amount of money for this phone. I also paid for the stupid XDA premium app to support the XDA community. I also have contributed much money to many devs in the past for previous phones I've owned. I believe I have a right to be kept in the know. Whether the know is what exploit developers are using to find root or useless banter from idiotic foreigners and newbs who have no idea what is going on is completely regardless. It's a public forum. The thread was posted in the general section. There was no warning in the title that it was a "Dev thread only." It wasn't just the idiots who were posting dumb comments, it was a lot of the ATT Note 4 Community that would post 4-5 replies after the "are we there yet?" posts that got the thread shut down. I enjoyed the thread, I learned a lot about exploits that I wouldn't have ever thought to research on my own. It was purely entertainment for me and it was taken away because the moderation can never handle anything properly.
Bridge is closed, troll. Go shake your head somewhere else. Nomsayin?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
First off as Senior Moderator and Team Leader of this section, I AM NO TROLL! You certainly failed to comprehend my post and have some reading comprehension problems. YOUR post had absolutely no value and made no sense that a closed troll filled thread would stop you from getting root! Wow...just wow.
Now if you had read my post correctly I stated there IS an area for developers ONLY where people can see what is going on and not disturb the developers with useless posts like "Now we will never get root" or "Are we there yet". Try reading the original post a few times...then before you respond read it again. Feel free to take this to PM with me if you have any more criticisms of the avenues presented on this PRIVATE membership only development forum.
Cheers
KennyG123
Senior Moderator

KennyG123 said:
First off as Senior Moderator and Team Leader of this section, I AM NO TROLL! You certainly failed to comprehend my post and have some reading comprehension problems. YOUR post had absolutely no value and made no sense that a closed troll filled thread would stop you from getting root! Wow...just wow.
Now if you had read my post correctly I stated there IS an area for developers ONLY where people can see what is going on and not disturb the developers with useless posts like "Now we will never get root" or "Are we there yet". Try reading the original post a few times...then before you respond read it again. Feel free to take this to PM with me if you have any more criticisms of the avenues presented on this PRIVATE membership only development forum.
Cheers
KennyG123
Senior Moderator
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Private?! OK buddy. I could have 4 accounts to this "private" forum in 5 mins. You guys give any moron a membership. You guys even made it easier for morons to join by making them watch a video rather than actually reading the rules before signing up. This is dumb. I have lost interest in all doings on this forum. Thanks for the boost of support from the Mod team. Did you have to watch a video before becoming a mod? Cheers.

ChefAnt said:
Private?! OK buddy. I could have 4 accounts to this "private" forum in 5 mins. You guys give any moron a membership. You guys even made it easier for morons to join by making them watch a video rather than actually reading the rules before signing up. This is dumb. I have lost interest in all doings on this forum. Thanks for the boost of support from the Mod team. Did you have to watch a video before becoming a mod? Cheers.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Actually yes we do. And please read those rules you so reverently talked about. Having more than one account is a rule violation.

ChefAnt said:
Private?! OK buddy. I could have 4 accounts to this "private" forum in 5 mins. You guys give any moron a membership. You guys even made it easier for morons to join by making them watch a video rather than actually reading the rules before signing up. This is dumb. I have lost interest in all doings on this forum. Thanks for the boost of support from the Mod team. Did you have to watch a video before becoming a mod? Cheers.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Man I usually don't post but **** I am so glad your gone. Best wishes

Wow...well you were right about having a place for people to cry...I was genuinely looking for a place to go keep learning and hopefully obtaining root...if you want to stop and close this thread I approve. No need for mods and users to be fighting and disrespecting eachother. I will continue my pursuit in other threads this one is finished for me.

Closed at OP's request.
Edfunkycold
Have a great day!

So no one collaborate on root now.

Looks like root threads are getting shut down due to negative comments. Well they are a part of forums. Go look on everyone. You have to take the good and bad XDA is no different. I've been a member for 7 years and to see such a vital thread shut down makes me think the moderator is a tmobile user trying to derail us. No thread is perfect at all. Are the moderators helping with root or just using their opinions on posts to say whether or not they are valid. So hundreds and hundreds of users are dependent upon the thoughts of 1 or 2 people whether or not a thread is valid? Take the good with the bad people. Your not going to change anything except maybe losing people on XDA as they go to Android central or anything other forum. I'll probably get an infraction or banned but I'm staying an opinion just like forums were meant for along with information and facts.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N915A using XDA Free mobile app

Ban the people not the thread!
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N915A using XDA Free mobile app

I can understand the ppl working hard to achieve what we all want( root) getting Pissed off about useless coments. I have to say the good outweighed the bad And was harsh to shut it down because of a few ppl trolling or have had nothing to contribute to the thread. Why do we all suffer because of very few ppl?
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using XDA Free mobile app

brentsalinas714 said:
I can understand the ppl working hard to achieve what we all want( root) getting Pissed off about useless coments. I have to say the good outweighed the bad And was harsh to shut it down because of a few ppl trolling or have had nothing to contribute to the thread. Why do we all suffer because of very few ppl?
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using XDA Free mobile app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I PM'ed the moderator staff about this and was assured the current lock is only temporary. They also acknowledged the concerns you all are expressing. I would guess it is a TOS violation to copy & paste the private conversation here, but do know that they were not only appropriate in their response but also highly supportive of reinstituting the thread. However, there have been major issues with people not following instructions and posting off-topic and inappropriate messages. If you want to see the thread open back up, perhaps a better approach would be to do what I did and write a polite, formal request to the moderator staff rather than post threads complaining about their actions. The latter will only tick them off but lots of requests done in a professional, persistent but considerate manner is more likely to push them in the direction of unlocking that thread.

I understand your guys thoughts but this isn't the way to go about. Us people ready to do what we can with root just have to stay quite and wait say nothing.....
Idk if this will help out getting to root but there is a hidden menu in the dailer "*#0*#" to access camera functions. Idk if it would be easier to use that to access the exploit that was discovered because i don't dig that deep when it comes to tinkering with android but that's what I came cross.

1156 posts, what 100 useless, I was following the good and skipping the bulls#i+ it's not that hard... Common sense... No one has any anymore...

I hope it's not out of line to comment about this, but I would really appreciate the ban being lifted, too. I get that there were a lot of bad posts happening, and I understand why the moderators were forced to lock the thread, but please lift it soon. Developers were just making progress when you guys shut all conversation down. :/

Awesome way to stop development! Good job xda admins way to in force your dictatorship and stop the delopement of the GN4 since we didn't have enough trouble already

Ok, I know everyone is feeling distressed, I as well, once learning that a "Highly Productive Developement Thread" was closed down due to what reason(s) the moderator posted.
All that aside,
I have emailed the Administrator of XDA with my sincere expressed concerns reflecting to the "Loss of Developement" for not one, but several possible Samsung Note Variants. (I will not disclose or discuss the email.) Based on past experience with the person I emailed, I truly feel that person(s) will take the upmost and sincerest actions to best decide how to best handle this type of situation.
In the meantime,
I would ask that you Please keep this thread POSITIVE and Productive, and to to refrain from making "negative comments." Nothing will be gained from that except the locking of another thread...
If you truly want root,
Let's make it happen.
However go about it the professional & correct way.
Please let my post, be the last post,
So others will possibly read it and understand what it is we are trying to achieve. My sincerest thanks.
Developers don't need no stinkin' signature!
If I've been able to help you, please hit the "Thanks" button.

Most people with skills to root the note 4 aren't talking about it/brain storming on XDA. There is pretty good money involved, you can bet stuff isn't getting shared in a public forum. my last two devices that took a while to root were completely silent in the forums. not a peep till it was tested and ready to roll.

Profess = claim openly but often falsely that one has (a quality or feeling).
Profession = an open but often false declaration or claim.
Lets go about it the professional & often false way. Ehh?

Martinjv71 said:
Looks like root threads are getting shut down due to negative comments. Well they are a part of forums. Go look on everyone. You have to take the good and bad XDA is no different. I've been a member for 7 years and to see such a vital thread shut down makes me think the moderator is a tmobile user trying to derail us. No thread is perfect at all. Are the moderators helping with root or just using their opinions on posts to say whether or not they are valid. So hundreds and hundreds of users are dependent upon the thoughts of 1 or 2 people whether or not a thread is valid? Take the good with the bad people. Your not going to change anything except maybe losing people on XDA as they go to Android central or anything other forum. I'll probably get an infraction or banned but I'm staying an opinion just like forums were meant for along with information and facts.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N915A using XDA Free mobile app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's because a bunch of stupid people have to put their two cents in where it's not needed. The thread should have been strictly for discussing the exploits and code needed for rooting, not a bunch of "OMG CANT WAIT FOR R00T!" and whatever other nonsense bull**** that was being posted.
Because of a few idiots who need to have their keyboards taken away, we can't have nice things. This thread should be locked. Next person who makes a thread about root, or about the previous root thread should get banned.
</rant off>

One thing Xda admins need to learn is that there are people of all nationalities and ages on here. To think you're going to stop people from posting useless comments is stupid. You're not fixing anything XDA admins if anything you're making it worse. Don't punish thousands for something WE cannot control. There will always be people posting stupid crap get over it. The developers that were actually working on things probably didnt even notice the extra crap.
---------- Post added at 01:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:50 AM ----------
Also thanks to Xda admins blocking our root progress page people are pulling money out of the root bounty. Xda admins = awesome job

Seriously?
And you wonder why the threads are closed!