Related
I just really don't understand.. I have been reading though many different threads for a long time now (lurking cuz I dont have any issues to report on) but thats not the point of my post right now...
most people are helpful and respectful and thats what we fellow android lovers should be about, BUT then there are some people that are just straight up A-holes... and people in the android community wonder what is happening to XDA as a whole... just read through pretty much any thread and you can see it...
we are all here to HELP not FLAME!!! we are NO better than others cuz we know more or have more posts, big deal, we all started out at post count 1... alot of times I wonder how old the people on here really are? cuz they act like high schoolers... again, the majority is a good group of people but alot of people need to check themselves... i hate to say it(not really) but everyone is going to rootzwiki and android central for this reason alone... DISRESPECT... think about it.... seriously, just think about it.
If we, or anyone who honestly gives a sh** wants to restore this site to its former glory, then first start showing respect!!!
/END RANT
This thread is for voicing opinions/issues ONLY!!! Rumors will not be allowed and NO flaming tolerated!!! thanks
THIS. Over in Fascinate land, we're losing our best developers as well as some VERY helpful "average users" due to an apparent surge in all-around immaturity and stupidity. Thing is, in my 27 years, I have yet to find a community (online or not) bereft of the "our community's dying!" mentality.
Wherever you have people, you have politics; wherever you have politics, you have conflict. While it's frustrating to see highly valued contributors moving on, we can still follow (and learn from) their continuing efforts while remaining part of XDA ourselves. The Internet's handy like that, but it's a double-edged sword: the masses always follow the content they desire and migrate as needed. The devs are our content providers, but donations and "Thank You" buttons can only go so far to outweigh general Internet shenanigans / douchebaggery.
Basically, I am confident that the greater XDA community will continue to thrive as long as the vast majority of users continue to conduct themselves appropriately and remain intersted in the subject matter. There'll always be petty squabbling and "shocking" departures, but it takes more than that to truly ruin a community.
Sent from my SCH-I500 using XDA Premium App
I agree with Jazz. In the many years I've been online I have seen forums go through stuff like this. It's part of our nature as human beings. And eventually the voice of reason prevails.
Omnichron said:
I agree with Jazz. In the many years I've been online I have seen forums go through stuff like this. It's part of our nature as human beings. And eventually the voice of reason prevails.
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I agree with you both... my point is respecting others... I have been a part of this forum and AndroidCentral for years and have never seen such disrespect at android cent...
I just don't get why some(not all) people (mainly the ones with high post counts) think they have the right to flame new people, or people that are asking for help. yes, this help may be obvious to some and not so obvious to others. but isn't the point of an tech forum to get help in a respectful manner? the other day I asked a question (and yes I did use the search tool first to no avail), and I was majorly flamed by two different people for something that was obvious to them but not to others...
the point: I hope this place comes back around
and thank you both for your input, hopefully others will read this and think about it. and I am sure I will probably get flamed for posting this
ssethv said:
I agree with you both... my point is respecting others... I have been a part of this forum and AndroidCentral for years and have never seen such disrespect at android cent...
I just don't get why some(not all) people (mainly the ones with high post counts) think they have the right to flame new people, or people that are asking for help. yes, this help may be obvious to some and not so obvious to others. but isn't the point of an tech forum to get help in a respectful manner? the other day I asked a question (and yes I did use the search tool first to no avail), and I was majorly flamed by two different people for something that was obvious to them but not to others...
the point: I hope this place comes back around
and thank you both for your input, hopefully others will read this and think about it. and I am sure I will probably get flamed for posting this
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I wouldn't worry about it. Just as soon as someone shows the slightest anti-social attitude, put their user ID in your ignore list and you will never be troubled by them again. You won't be able to see anything they say. The thread will be populated only with constructive and helpful posts.
Since I started doing this myself, XDA has been a wonderful site for me.
Thanks, But what if that 'someone' does have some very helpful info but is just an A-hole. is there a way to filter. or just block them and deal with the loss of their info?
PS. I really like your tiny signature at the bottom... awesome
MartyLK said:
I wouldn't worry about it. Just as soon as someone shows the slightest anti-social attitude, put their user ID in your ignore list and you will never be troubled by them again. You won't be able to see anything they say. The thread will be populated only with constructive and helpful posts.
Since I started doing this myself, XDA has been a wonderful site for me.
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Marty, you make a good point. The sad part about it is that when / if those people grow up, any worthwhile posts they make will go unseen by many; in a way, they really end up cheating themselves.
Sent from my SCH-I500 using XDA Premium App
Jazz848 said:
Marty, you make a good point. The sad part about it is that when / if those people grow up, any worthwhile posts they make will go unseen by many; in a way, they really end up cheating themselves.
Sent from my SCH-I500 using XDA Premium App
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That's very true. But there are some who are not children who are just as disrespectful as some of the younger ones.
ssethv said:
Thanks, But what if that 'someone' does have some very helpful info but is just an A-hole. is there a way to filter. or just block them and deal with the loss of their info?
PS. I really like your tiny signature at the bottom... awesome
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Though it is possible such disrespectful people could have valuable info, I would rather not use it anyway. I'm funny that way. If someone disrespects me, nothing they do is liked. And I personally don't consider anything from them of use.
Thanks for the compliment. It was an addition when I started using the ignore list.
@OP
Indeed we have millions of members who love and respect what XDA stands for: Development!
And with a site of almost 4 million of course problems are in millions, we will be making some changes soon that will lead into a better XDA, of course with the help of all good members out there!
As a recommendation when you detect some problem, instead of reacting yourself and possibly starting a bigger issue please report to us and we will take care.
Thanks for your cooperation.
I agree. I definitely wish XDA was brought back to the way it was a few years ago, however back then it was mostly devs and power users. It's really hard today with the influx of newbs making threads like "I CAN HAZ CM7 ON MY EVO 3D YET?"
@orb3000
Thanks for the feedback... I never feed the fires of a flame... I am here for two reasons only... to get info (by READING or using the search tool) and to help other people out...
I am looking forward to "said" changes coming to the site
tek818 said:
I agree. I definitely wish XDA was brought back to the way it was a few years ago, however back then it was mostly devs and power users. It's really hard today with the influx of newbs making threads like "I CAN HAZ CM7 ON MY EVO 3D YET?"
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I somewhat agree with you... but we all started at post count 1, and were all noobs at one time... everyone that enters this site should be treated with dignity and respect. unless, the are undeserving of it, then as Marty said "block them"
but i understand exactly what you mean.. and it can be annoying at times. thats when i go smoke a cig or take a breath and break from the computer for a while.
orb3000 said:
@OP
Indeed we have millions of members who love and respect what XDA stands for: Development!
And with a site of almost 4 million of course problems are in millions, we will be making some changes soon that will lead into a better XDA, of course with the help of all good members out there!
As a recommendation when you detect some problem, instead of reacting yourself and possibly starting a bigger issue please report to us and we will take care.
Thanks for your cooperation.
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You are going on my block list. Sheesh, flaming on a thread about stopping the flames. Shame on you!
LOL.... i cant stop laughing, you just made my day a little better
ssethv said:
I just don't get why some(not all) people (mainly the ones with high post counts) think they have the right to flame new people, or people that are asking for help. yes, this help may be obvious to some and not so obvious to others. but isn't the point of an tech forum to get help in a respectful manner? the other day I asked a question (and yes I did use the search tool first to no avail), and I was majorly flamed by two different people for something that was obvious to them but not to others...
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The answer is that after you've been here a while and see crop after crop of n00bs come in and ask the same. frigging. questions when the answers are right there, you get a little jaded and start to lose patience. Sometimes you forget which things are really obvious and which were hard to figure out. All you know is that you've answered it 100 times. So some 'power users' burn out, some keep trucking, and some turn to flaming. This is NOT EXCUSABLE, just explaining the lifecycle.
When you're the kind of person who does things like, say, read all 800 pages of a thread (and weeding out al the useless posts) so you're sure to be up to date, then someone waltzes in and asks a question for the 100th time... it's just incredibly frustrating. For every user that does that, there's one that has come in quietly and found the information on their own, which means the information CAN be found. Heck, I was able to find it. I know it's out there. I earned it and they want it for free. So how many lazy so-and-sos should I give it away to before I get a bit irate? Frustration is instantly doubled if the post is in a Development thread.
We're all standing on the shoulders of those that have gone before us. Problem is, some n00bs don't seem to care if they kick the guys under them in the nuts on the way up. It gets old.
But, as Orb stated, we're making some changes that should start to reverse that trend.
mrkite38 said:
The answer is that after you've been here a while and see crop after crop of n00bs come in and ask the same. frigging. questions when the answers are right there, you get a little jaded and start to lose patience. Sometimes you forget which things are really obvious and which were hard to figure out. All you know is that you've answered it 100 times. So some 'power users' burn out, some keep trucking, and some turn to flaming. This is NOT EXCUSABLE, just explaining the lifecycle.
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But, as Orb stated, we're making some changes that should start to reverse that trend.
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well said, and I understand and agree with you... I am low on my post count on this site becuase I do use the search tool and EVERY singe question known to man has been asked and answered on this site, thats why I lurk and reseach, so I don't ask the same question again... I am on Android Central and know exactly what you mean. I was asked to be a moderator but turned it down cuz I don't always have the time... I mainly try to create guides/fixes/tutorials for the thunderbolt rooting roms and hacks section.
thanks to everyone for there thoughts and replies thus far, hopefully some more people will read and take to heart all of our opinions and issues
orb3000 said:
@OP
Indeed we have millions of members who love and respect what XDA stands for: Development!
And with a site of almost 4 million of course problems are in millions, we will be making some changes soon that will lead into a better XDA, of course with the help of all good members out there!
As a recommendation when you detect some problem, instead of reacting yourself and possibly starting a bigger issue please report to us and we will take care.
Thanks for your cooperation.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree, especially the bold part. But the current system in place doesn't help us report any problem posts. I've been here since 2007 (in fact the only other older person in this thread is you) and just comparing what was back in 2007 to now, the problem is worse with hot tempered devs and or members in general. Like I said the system doesn't give those that care the affordability to actually report a problem post or member. Having to go through a list of mods and having to choose one to send the complaint is not efficient. Maybe the report button should generate a report post that deposits in a specially created forum for the staff to see and then take care of. This not only keeps a record of problem members but is quicker than the current system.
And while I agree that the site is mostly created by developers for developers, everyone started on page 1. Everyone started asking questions. I understand that some devs (and members) will get frustrated after the same question is asked over and over. But there isn't any need to go off the deep end. The same goes for any member. In the time that one wastes making a post flaming the member, they could have reported it or better yet, provide the answer.
I've gone through threads with hundreds of pages to get an answer, but seeing so many with flames, arguments and nonsense forces those that rather not deal with it to ask the question even if it was asked before.
Now mind you, I firmly believe its not just mods but everyone's responsibility to make sure things run smoothly. If a member starts flaming, being disrespectful, etc, don't add to the argument, report it, this way the staff can remove the post. Maybe then the 100 pages threads won't be so riddled with nonsense or be so long. We can't rely on the staff to see everything, so we should do our part as well. But like I mentioned above the reporting system doesn't help.
Another thing that throws a wrench into this is the fact that staff may be reluctant to give out a warning, infraction or a temp ban to those disrespectful members with high posts counts especially if they are developers for fear that they may take their stuff elsewhere. Its a fine line to cross. Now, what the solution or middle ground is, is anyone's guess. Hopefully the upcoming changes will be a start. But in the meantime, I for one will continue to report anyone that is out of line regardless of post count or title.
TS out
Another thing that throws a wrench into this is the fact that staff may be reluctant to give out a warning, infraction or a temp ban to those disrespectful members with high posts counts especially if they are developers for fear that they may take their stuff elsewhere.
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Very true!!!
the system doesn't give those that care the affordability to actually report a problem post or member. Having to go through a list of mods and having to choose one to send the complaint is not efficient. Maybe the report button should generate a report post that deposits in a specially created forum for the staff to see and then take care of. This not only keeps a record of problem members but is quicker than the current system.
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Hopefully this idea will be considered by the mods, its a good idea!!!
I firmly believe its not just mods but everyone's responsibility to make sure things run smoothly. If a member starts flaming, being disrespectful, etc, don't add to the argument, report it, this way the staff can remove the post. Maybe then the 100 pages threads won't be so riddled with nonsense or be so long. We can't rely on the staff to see everything, so we should do our part as well. But like I mentioned above the reporting system doesn't help.
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well put... thanks for contributing to this thread... I want this to get the wheels turning, I love this place and hate what is and has happened to it...
New report post system is on the way pretty soon
All,
I've decided that rather than start attacking some of the forum users whose conduct I don't agree with, I'd write an opinion and a suggestion.
Let me start by saying, that I love XDA. Before I became a member, I spent countless hours reading through threads on these forums. Admittedly, prior to discovering the Nexus One I was an iPhone user, and apple fanboy. I can honestly say that XDA helped cure me of that.
I am not a developer. I use these forums as a method of learning how to enhance my phone; to build a working knowledge of Android; with a hope to one day I will be able to repay the Devs who helped me with original work of my own. Lately, as many people have already stated, I've noticed that the quality of discussion in many forum threads has gone down significantly. The mods do an excellent job of keeping threads on topic, and cleaning useless posts, however, I think its getting to be too much for them. This is my attempt to provide advice to new users, and to suggest a possible course of action to help correct the conduct that is a cancer on this great site.
I've seen threads where Dev's are threatened if they don't release ROMs, where people demand ETAs. Team Hacksung, who worked tirelessly to release CM7 for the SGS2 actually had to threaten to leave XDA to bring order to their development thread. I've also seen threads degrade into rascism and discrimination, threats of violence and bigotry. None of this is acceptable, and will serve no other goal than forcing developers to leave XDA.
People need to understand a few things:
[*] Dev's work is done on their own free-time
[*] Dev's work is done for no compensation other than the gratitude of their peers and the occasional donation.
[*] Dev's are under no obligation to release ANYTHING to the members of XDA - If they don't feel their work is ready, or they aren't ready to share it, you have no right to demand it released.
[*] Access to Dev work is a privilege that can easily be revoked; NOT A RIGHT.
In addition to the excellent and trying job that the moderators already undertake, I suggest the following apply to anyone not recognized as a developer:
[*] There is a 3 strike rule with regards to posting in each development section. Any posts deemed to be off-topic, not-relevant, hateful, malicious, rascist, etc should be deemed a strike. I would not include obvious jokes, sincere mistakes, attempts to be helpful, etc as a strike. My goal is not to discourage participation, but to discourage comments designed to be harmful.
[*]Strike 1 is a warning, Strike 2 is a one week ban from posting within the development forums, strike 3 is a permanent ban from posting within the development forums.
Moderators would be responsible for determining what is a strike based on a pre-determined criteria.
My 2c, take it or leave it..
C0mbe
"In a perfect world..."
github said:
"In a perfect world..."
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This is an internet forum, not the world... you can be as punitive as you like...
Sent from my SCH-I510 using XDA Premium App
I think your suggestions are too lenient. In the six years I've been here, the mods have only gotten more and more lax in the rules with the influx of Android users. It used to be that if you said something retarded or offensive, it was an automatic ban. Now, it seems as though it takes an act of congress to get an abusive user removed. Don't worry, though. Their are some changes coming soon that will help out tremendously.
Rule with an Iron Fist!!!
I agree and it's quite simple. Have respect and decency toward others and remember this is a "family oriented" site/community and that needs to be respected. I have stated my advice elsewhere in the forums that XDA needs to start ruling with an "IRON FIST" and keep this site enjoyabe and respectable as it should be. I stand behind that and always will. It is the best way to run the forums otherwise it will turn into a battleground of idiots envoking arguments, name calling, etc. I personally take offense to people who attack others in the forums and elsewhere on XDA. I have probably gotten a little out of line in the past a couple of times but that was due to others' attacks and flaming.
If you feel you should be allowed freedom of speech and explicit visual interpretation/expressionon on XDA, then this isn't the community for you. XDA holds the right to moderate it's site and forums as they see fit. In this case XDA chooses to run a family friendly site instead of a free-for-all slugfest site and I'm in favor of that. This is not directed to anyone in particular, nor do I pass judgement on anybody it's just my thoughts. Leave the hate/foul mouth comments in your world not here @XDA.
I think XDA is the best "go-to" site for all smartphone development needs and resources and that is how everybody should want to keep it. I bet most of you will agree. Do your part by helping and respecting others AT ALL TIMES. Please don't post hate comments, intentional troll provoking/explicit behavior/expressions, hateful/attitude remarks here at XDA.
Thanks for reading.
C0mbe said:
This is an internet forum, not the world... you can be as punitive as you like...
Sent from my SCH-I510 using XDA Premium App
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I didn't want to elaborate, but meh I'm bored. You are not the first to post about this, and won't be the last. It will get buried, and life will go on. I mean, there was already a thread about this in this very forum... and it's one of the top 5 right now.
It's a world wide forum. People will post stuff you don't like. PM a moderator and tell them about it and move on. Or use the ignore list. There are new users both new to phones AND the internet/computers. They will make mistakes and ask questions (ETAs and such). At the end of the day, it's the internet. Does it really bother you so much that someone "demanded" an ETA? Made a disrespectful comment?
An old saying works wonders here. If I had $1 for every "XDA is dying" post, I'd be very wealthy.
P.S. I also heard that the sky is falling.
cajunflavoredbob said:
I think your suggestions are too lenient. In the six years I've been here, the mods have only gotten more and more lax in the rules with the influx of Android users. It used to be that if you said something retarded or offensive, it was an automatic ban. Now, it seems as though it takes an act of congress to get an abusive user removed. Don't worry, though. Their are some changes coming soon that will help out tremendously.
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Yes, bans! bans! more bans! RAWR BANHAMMER. That's the way to encourage growth. Everyone knows that a police state is what is needed.
github said:
I didn't want to elaborate, but meh I'm bored. You are not the first to post about this, and won't be the last. It will get buried, and life will go on. I mean, there was already a thread about this in this very forum... and it's one of the top 5 right now.
It's a world wide forum. People will post stuff you don't like. PM a moderator and tell them about it and move on. Or use the ignore list. There are new users both new to phones AND the internet/computers. They will make mistakes and ask questions (ETAs and such). At the end of the day, it's the internet. Does it really bother you so much that someone "demanded" an ETA? Made a disrespectful comment?
An old saying works wonders here. If I had $1 for every "XDA is dying" post, I'd be very wealthy.
P.S. I also heard that the sky is falling.
Yes, bans! bans! more bans! RAWR BANHAMMER. That's the way to encourage growth. Everyone knows that a police state is what is needed.
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This has nothing to do with site growth. It never has. If you break the rules, you get punished. It's that simple. You can try ignoring useless or inflaming comments all you want, but all that does is allow the behavior to continue. Obviously, catering to the behavior and becoming more lenient didn't work. The result is that the mods are now beginning to crack down harder again. This is the direction the site is now going. This site is about developers, not troubleshooting.
Users should learn manners and respect or go somewhere else. That's the main point. It isn't our job here to teach people the manners their parents could not. That's why the site isn't named XDA-Babysittingservice.com.
It the world wide web there are bound to be idiots out there. If they start banning these people there be just me and the mods left!!
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA Premium App
github said:
At the end of the day, it's the internet. Does it really bother you so much that someone "demanded" an ETA? Made a disrespectful comment?
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No, each and every demand for an ETA or disrespectful comment does not bother me that much, and of course I understand that its the internet. Its very easy to behave like an idiot when you are hiding behind pixels. Its really the totality of the circumstances that I am referring to. The object of XDA is for individuals to share development information with the common goal of improving Android phones. If the purpose of the site is lost in all the ETAs and disrespectful comments, then what is the point? Certainly, the point is not to lose developers...
github said:
P.S. I also heard that the sky is falling.
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Call me whatever you like, your admission that there are multiple complaints like mine on each sub-forum is proof that there is a problem with member conduct on the site. And I did say that my OP was my own opinion, and my 2c.
github said:
Yes, bans! bans! more bans! RAWR BANHAMMER. That's the way to encourage growth. Everyone knows that a police state is what is needed.
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Who says you need a police state? I'm merely talking about adding rules to encourage and enforce order on the forums. And no one wants growth for the sake of growth. A small site that is efficient and has a high number of contributing members will always be better than a large site where the sheer volume of junk posts dilute the contributing members.
Plus, at the end of the day, all anyone really has on the internet is a voice. Thus, the ban remains the most effective method of controlling poor conduct.
It appears you guys have not read the site admins latest announcement...I advice u do
TheRomMistress said:
It appears you guys have not read the site admins latest announcement...I advice u do
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That's fine and all. But does it address the time it takes to actually report problem posts (instead of just complain about them)? Having to PM forum mods that either gave up on your forum, or don't even visit that forum isn't exactly encouraging.
Or will the forums stop becoming void of moderators (like over in EVO 4G land, where I can't remember the last time we had moderator participation besides the banhammer here and there, or moved threads that I report). Will we start seeing more moderator participation?
Of course, my last posts here were worded to spark conversation (and that they did). I am happy to see this latest development, but still feel that it falls short of what is needed. Hopefully there is more in the works.
github said:
That's fine and all. But does it address the time it takes to actually report problem posts (instead of just complain about them)? Having to PM forum mods that either gave up on your forum, or don't even visit that forum isn't exactly encouraging.
Or will the forums stop becoming void of moderators (like over in EVO 4G land, where I can't remember the last time we had moderator participation besides the banhammer here and there, or moved threads that I report). Will we start seeing more moderator participation?
Of course, my last posts here were worded to spark conversation (and that they did). I am happy to see this latest development, but still feel that it falls short of what is needed. Hopefully there is more in the works.
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The report system is being reworked. The site improvements will take some time to roll out fully. Things are going back to the earlier days here. Everyone needs to learn how to act right or reap what they sow.
github said:
That's fine and all. But does it address the time it takes to actually report problem posts (instead of just complain about them)? Having to PM forum mods that either gave up on your forum, or don't even visit that forum isn't exactly encouraging.
Or will the forums stop becoming void of moderators (like over in EVO 4G land, where I can't remember the last time we had moderator participation besides the banhammer here and there, or moved threads that I report). Will we start seeing more moderator participation?
Of course, my last posts here were worded to spark conversation (and that they did). I am happy to see this latest development, but still feel that it falls short of what is needed. Hopefully there is more in the works.
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cajunflavoredbob said:
The report system is being reworked. The site improvements will take some time to roll out fully. Things are going back to the earlier days here. Everyone needs to learn how to act right or reap what they sow.
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What he said
Thanks. I actually moved this into it's own post/question, as it is kind of offtopic from what OP was discussing.
i think it would be a good idea if a new session was made...that session will be a playground for all spammers and timewasters to play around always in the rules...
as i am in some other forums too i noticed that there is a session where you could post as many post you want but it wasnt count as post(for example if i have 100 posts and post 10 in this session i will have still 100 posts){that forum was v-bulletin too ,so ithink is possible for this forum too}
also this session will be good opportunity to clear the off topic session for threads like ban the person above you , youtube thread ,kill the person above you and others(also an opportunity to make more of this), so the off topic session will be used for discusssion.
i post that thought of mine because i think it will help the forum!!!
hope you will find my suggestion usefull!!!!!!
cheers
We do have the Off Topic Section, but the posts do count in there.
This is definitely something to think about. I'll run it up the flag pole.
JimmyMcGee said:
We do have the Off Topic Section, but the posts do count in there.
This is definitely something to think about. I'll run it up the flag pole.
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I've seen some of the guys that frequent off-topic ask for it to not count towards posts quite a few times actually - you'll definitely get support for this. It's a sociable place where people get to know each other a bit better than the device forums, and it does get frustrating when new members decide to use it as a spamming arena to get their post count up.
+1 to this.
stamatis16 said:
i think it would be a good idea if a new session was made...that session will be a playground for all spammers and timewasters to play around always in the rules...
as i am in some other forums too i noticed that there is a session where you could post as many post you want but it wasnt count as post(for example if i have 100 posts and post 10 in this session i will have still 100 posts){that forum was v-bulletin too ,so ithink is possible for this forum too}
also this session will be good opportunity to clear the off topic session for threads like ban the person above you , youtube thread ,kill the person above you and others(also an opportunity to make more of this), so the off topic session will be used for discusssion.
i post that thought of mine because i think it will help the forum!!!
hope you will find my suggestion usefull!!!!!!
cheers
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Click to collapse
We had touched upon this a few times in fact. Good to see that we are not alone in our line of thought
I have been following xda for over two years now but have never joined until a week ago. I have donated a lot of money to various developers and roms offer that time. But only through paypal and email. I have been afraid to join the forum as with my knowledge of Android then, i would only sound like an idiot. There needs to be a streamlined way to get rid of spammers while not discouraging noobs from learning. This can be Done by implementing the above ideas but i believe because of human nature and the fact xda has grown massively, there is no proven method to exclude perpetrators. Tyke main problem is that people cannot gauge their own level of expertise and so they stumble along, get flamed and essentially become spammers out of spite. When some person joins initially they should enter a primary site where their actions can be judged over a period of time. One their trial is complete they can then join the main xda forum. Moderators could focus their time and energy on this trial site and will find their jobs made easier and the main site free of moronic comments. Anyways, this can solve many of your problems and existing members would also refrain from breaking the rules because they will fear the drudgery of the trial site. I have seriously leant tons from the awesome people and knowledgeable developers here on xda. Thank you all and i look forward to supporting you until i am old and grey.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using xda premium
slacker07 said:
I have been following xda for over two years now but have never joined until a week ago. I have donated a lot of money to various developers and roms offer that time. But only through paypal and email. I have been afraid to join the forum as with my knowledge of Android then, i would only sound like an idiot. There needs to be a streamlined way to get rid of spammers while not discouraging noobs from learning. This can be Done by implementing the above ideas but i believe because of human nature and the fact xda has grown massively, there is no proven method to exclude perpetrators. Tyke main problem is that people cannot gauge their own level of expertise and so they stumble along, get flamed and essentially become spammers out of spite. When some person joins initially they should enter a primary site where their actions can be judged over a period of time. One their trial is complete they can then join the main xda forum. Moderators could focus their time and energy on this trial site and will find their jobs made easier and the main site free of moronic comments. Anyways, this can solve many of your problems and existing members would also refrain from breaking the rules because they will fear the drudgery of the trial site. I have seriously leant tons from the awesome people and knowledgeable developers here on xda. Thank you all and i look forward to supporting you until i am old and grey.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using xda premium
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I would love this. Unfortunately users wouldn't... But there are aspects of this that might help, I'll take them forwards, thanks
slacker07 said:
I have been following xda for over two years now but have never joined until a week ago. I have donated a lot of money to various developers and roms offer that time. But only through paypal and email. I have been afraid to join the forum as with my knowledge of Android then, i would only sound like an idiot. There needs to be a streamlined way to get rid of spammers while not discouraging noobs from learning. This can be Done by implementing the above ideas but i believe because of human nature and the fact xda has grown massively, there is no proven method to exclude perpetrators. Tyke main problem is that people cannot gauge their own level of expertise and so they stumble along, get flamed and essentially become spammers out of spite. When some person joins initially they should enter a primary site where their actions can be judged over a period of time. One their trial is complete they can then join the main xda forum. Moderators could focus their time and energy on this trial site and will find their jobs made easier and the main site free of moronic comments. Anyways, this can solve many of your problems and existing members would also refrain from breaking the rules because they will fear the drudgery of the trial site. I have seriously leant tons from the awesome people and knowledgeable developers here on xda. Thank you all and i look forward to supporting you until i am old and grey.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using xda premium
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Click to collapse
Ok that's a good idea and thanks for sharing it,
The problem is that not everyone new is noob about android, take example from yourself, when you joined you weren't noob, and with criteria will they be judged...
I think your idea deserve its own thread..
Ok can we go back to my suggestion?! Thanks
Sent from my X8 using xda premium
Well, I agree. The OT section is many times used as a spam section. There are many topics there which could be combined but they say hey, its off topic so theycan post whatever they want wherever.
I really dont understand this culture of being royal pricks to anyone new, confused, lazy etc. whether the HAVE OR HAVE NOT done a search. Perhaps this is the way I grew up, but I think it's an important quality to be nice to others whether they are in front of you or behind a monitor. It seems that there is a competition of sorts to see who can be douchier to the people asking questions, because they think it scores them respect points with a developer, and who's the best at showing appreciation, which in this little dichotomy is a good thing turned sour.
I find that if one wants to show appreciation, one can be an active member in the forums, participating in the answering of questions, so that the developer doesnt have to. Its clear to me that those being jerks have NOT answered many questions and show a disdain for the questioner as if they have. Many online communities are plagued by this behavior and I see that little by little this one is sinking to the likes of other online flame-war communities.
Chill out. Be Cool. Be Helpful. Be Kind. Its a simple mantra that should go a long way in furthering discourse, knowledge and resources.
**Edit** Think of a device you like, other than the device's forum this thread is in, and post this or a similar thread if one doesnt exist. Lets see if we can spread this message.
Well it is actually the first rule in the forum rules to search before posting
While that doesn't give people a reason to be rude like 90% of the time the answer is in the op or within a few pages.
Plus more often than not it's the people asking the same thing over and over about issues that have been talked about a lot that gets people annoyed.
eBoody said:
I really dont understand this culture of being royal pricks to anyone new, confused, lazy etc. whether the HAVE OR HAVE NOT done a search. Perhaps this is the way I grew up, but I think it's an important quality to be nice to others whether they are in front of you or behind a monitor. It seems that there is a competition of sorts to see who can be douchier to the people asking questions, because they think it scores them respect points with a developer, and who's the best at showing appreciation, which in this little dichotomy is a good thing turned sour.
I find that if one wants to show appreciation, one can be an active member in the forums, participating in the answering of questions, so that the developer doesnt have to. Its clear to me that those being jerks have NOT answered many questions and show a disdain for the questioner as if they have. Many online communities are plagued by this behavior and I see that little by little this one is sinking to the likes of other online flame-war communities.
Chill out. Be Cool. Be Helpful. Be Kind. Its a simple mantra that should go a long way in furthering discourse, knowledge and resources.
**Edit** Think of a device you like, other than the device's forum this thread is in, and post this or a similar thread if one doesnt exist. Lets see if we can spread this message.
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Click to collapse
While some people have been extra douchey, it doesn't excuse the fact that the people they've been douchey to have been asking questions out of pure laziness. Time and time again these lazy a** people have been given the information they were seeking even though it was readily available for them in then OP.
The two most commonly asked questions in our G3 dev forums are "Is the camera working?" and "Is Bluetooth working?" . Two pieces of information outlined in the original post and provided at various points throughout the respective threads. Its absolutely ridiculous.
While some people probably come off stronger than they should that doesn't necessarily mean they were doing it for brownie points with the dev. I mean, what do they have to gain from these brownie points that we as a community don't gain already?
The reality is, these people who are being scolded for asking redundant questions took the time to come to XDA and to ask a question in a thread THAT THEY SHOULD HAVE AT LEAST MADE AN ATTEMPT AT READING FIRST. All they do is clutter the threads up with nonsense. Stop patronizing them by implying that their hands should be held by us in the good spirit of helping. If you truly wanted to help them then you would teach them how to find the answers they seek rather than just giving it to them.
I an very guilty of that. I help noobs but when I help and you ignore then you get rude answers. It simple.
NOTE 4
My general rule of thumb for myself when joining a new thread is to read the first 5 pages and the most recent 5 pages. If I don't find my answer in there then I'll ask it. I still try and read the whole thread whenever possible, but when they get 100+ pages I might not have the time before I need my issue resolved.
Knocked off my LG-D851
grayfoxmg1 said:
My general rule of thumb for myself when joining a new thread is to read the first 5 pages and the most recent 5 pages. If I don't find my answer in there then I'll ask it. I still try and read the whole thread whenever possible, but when they get 100+ pages I might not have the time before I need my issue resolved.
Knocked off my LG-D851
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That's exactly what I do. I also use the "Search Thread" thing off to the right. If I don't see what i need using those methods, then I ask.
I've been a member of XDA for a long time, since I had my HTC Kaiser running WinMo6.5(remember when that was everyone's go to platform?) and I've never had a bad experience here. I've also been a part of a few different communities here and been everything from a non-participating observer, to a standard user, to a beta tester, and a major debugger so it isn't that I stayed in my own little corner of XDA where everything was sunshine, rainbows, and unicorns(shout out to AOKP). About the only place I haven't at least visited is the Samsung and Sony threads because I haven't had one of their devices. No particular reason, something more attractive just normally pops up.
Now while I've never seen anyone go full on douche to someone in the threads, there have been a LOT of noobs that ask questions that could have been solved either one or two pages back. The worst are the ones that only read the OP and then ask a question without reading any other post in the thread(you can normally recognize them because they inadvertently quote the OP). So while a reminder to everyone that we are one of the last bastions of real internet hospitality isn't a bad thing, i think the problem isn't as big as it's made out to be. The biggest problem(which I have been guilty of) is when 2 or 3 members go off on a tangent in a thread for a page or two. The mods have to normally come in and clean the thread. While that is an inconvenience, it isn't something malicious so I am proud that is our biggest problem.
TL;DR: I don't think the problem is that big, everyone just needs to remember 2 things in XDA:
1. Search before posting
2. Treat everyone how you wish to be treated
Im well aware of the circumstances. Those being that people ask questions that have been answered before. My point is, rather than saying "its ridiculous" or completely bash on them, just ignore, or just answer it and point out thats the answer to the question is available in the OP and that one of the rules of this forum is to search first, then ask. Ive done this, and ive seen other people do it, and the response is CONSTRUCTIVE. They apologize, acknowledge and move on.
I just read some people's responses and shake my head.
Plus its the DEVELOPER that should be hot and bothered about answering questions. Not us.
Been on these boards since around 2007(may have been lurking a little before that), and i have never once been asked/told to search. I made it my business to research how this forum functions and I acted accordingly, at the same instance I have never told anyone to search for the answer they asked, personally i think it takes more effort and space to tell someone to search rather than to just ignore them, but again this is just my personal approach, and if someone was spamming the thread with the same question then i could understand the frustration.
cvsolidx17 said:
While some people have been extra douchey, it doesn't excuse the fact that the people they've been douchey to have been asking questions out of pure laziness. Time and time again these lazy a** people have been given the information they were seeking even though it was readily available for them in then OP.
The two most commonly asked questions in our G3 dev forums are "Is the camera working?" and "Is Bluetooth working?" . Two pieces of information outlined in the original post and provided at various points throughout the respective threads. Its absolutely ridiculous.
While some people probably come off stronger than they should that doesn't necessarily mean they were doing it for brownie points with the dev. I mean, what do they have to gain from these brownie points that we as a community don't gain already?
The reality is, these people who are being scolded for asking redundant questions took the time to come to XDA and to ask a question in a thread THAT THEY SHOULD HAVE AT LEAST MADE AN ATTEMPT AT READING FIRST. All they do is clutter the threads up with nonsense. Stop patronizing them by implying that their hands should be held by us in the good spirit of helping. If you truly wanted to help them then you would teach them how to find the answers they seek rather than just giving it to them.
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Click to collapse
your first paragraph and last sentence are in complete opposite of each other...instead of being douchey, tell them "hey...go here to find your answer" and if they still don't get it, by all means help them...but don't be a prick outright...often times you can tell if they've searched for the answer or not before posting...if they haven't and they asked before they did any work themselves, SO WHAT!? what's the point of these forums if they're not to provide a central location for people to find the answers they seek?
Yes let's help lazy people who want the answer the easy way. I search and search through forums and when i absolutely cant find the answer i ask for help, but no lets help people who dont want to do some research. This thread is the reason people feel like they can ask stupid lazy questions. Good job bro.
Still_living714 said:
Yes let's help lazy people who want the answer the easy way. I search and search through forums and when i absolutely cant find the answer i ask for help, but no lets help people who dont want to do some research. This thread is the reason people feel like they can ask stupid lazy questions. Good job bro.
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Click to collapse
Simply ignore those people if you don't want to help them...let someone else do it, 'bro'.
There are moderators here. No member needs to tell any member the rules or what they should or shouldn't do.
Sent from my LG-D851 using XDA Free mobile app
---------- Post added at 06:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:54 PM ----------
cvsolidx17 said:
While some people have been extra douchey, it doesn't excuse the fact that the people they've been douchey to have been asking questions out of pure laziness. Time and time again these lazy a** people have been given the information they were seeking even though it was readily available for them in then OP.
The two most commonly asked questions in our G3 dev forums are "Is the camera working?" and "Is Bluetooth working?" . Two pieces of information outlined in the original post and provided at various points throughout the respective threads. Its absolutely ridiculous.
While some people probably come off stronger than they should that doesn't necessarily mean they were doing it for brownie points with the dev. I mean, what do they have to gain from these brownie points that we as a community don't gain already?
The reality is, these people who are being scolded for asking redundant questions took the time to come to XDA and to ask a question in a thread THAT THEY SHOULD HAVE AT LEAST MADE AN ATTEMPT AT READING FIRST. All they do is clutter the threads up with nonsense. Stop patronizing them by implying that their hands should be held by us in the good spirit of helping. If you truly wanted to help them then you would teach them how to find the answers they seek rather than just giving it to them.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That may be so but it is not your job to address these things or any other members job unless they are a mod.
Ignore and move on.
Plus, some people are using a mobile device and search on the XDA app is not always so easy.
Sent from my LG-D851 using XDA Free mobile app
That's something I agree too. Search on Tapatalk is finiky at best.
Knocked off my LG-D851
As some one here that has participated a lot in both the Thunderbolt and GS4 forums I can tell you that too many posters come in here and do not take any time whatsoever to research anything before they start asking questions that have been answered hundred times. Many are so bad they NEVER look at the stickies in the general or Q&A forums where most of the questions and/or links to information exist. I had one poster tell me his time was too fricken valueable to take the time to read threads and he EXPECTED answers to his questions....If you are not taking an hour or two to research an issue then YOU are not doing your due diligence. There is practically no question that an answer can't be found if you take that time. Besides, if will add so much more to your own knowledge of your device instead of seeking intellectual handouts.,
If you don't read the stickies and take some time for basic research then your deserve a bit of ridicule. If you ask about rom updates or release dates or why isn't more being done, you deserve some chastisement. We have a lot of devs who end up volunteering a lot of their time in putting out a product that most users never shell out a nickel for, where most users ask for never ending support with little research on their end, again without shelling out a nickel. We have a lot of others who provide a lot of information to people and we do it gladly to help but you do have to try to help yourself too............
Richieboy67 said:
There are moderators here. No member needs to tell any member the rules or what they should or shouldn't do.
Sent from my LG-D851 using XDA Free mobile app
---------- Post added at 06:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:54 PM ----------
That may be so but it is not your job to address these things or any other members job unless they are a mod.
Ignore and move on.
Plus, some people are using a mobile device and search on the XDA app is not always so easy.
Sent from my LG-D851 using XDA Free mobile app
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grayfoxmg1 said:
That's something I agree too. Search on Tapatalk is finiky at best.
Knocked off my LG-D851
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Then use your browser .. There is no excuse. Moderators are far and few between, and have their own personal lives. The users are what make a forum, not moderators. We try to encourage people to search and not just ask questions, because that helps the community on a whole. I don't support leeches. How do people not have the time to search, but they can post and wait an hour or so for someone to reply? That isn't acceptable to me.
dictionary said:
Then use your browser .. There is no excuse. Moderators are far and few between, and have their own personal lives. The users are what make a forum, not moderators. We try to encourage people to search and not just ask questions, because that helps the community on a whole. I don't support leeches. How do people not have the time to search, but they can post and wait an hour or so for someone to reply? That isn't acceptable to me.
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Check my other posts before you call me a leech, I was just agreeing the search on the mobile applications needs to be worked on. Thus I tend to cut people who's posts end with a Tapatalk or xda-mobile signature some slack. If the answer is on the OP or within 5 pages of the post I still get upset.
Knocked off my LG-D851
I don't hear you whining about these posts where people like you spend more time complaining then politely explaining an answer or suggestion.
I'm not saying people shouldn't search but it is bad enough to see all those posts and then on top of it have to read many others just crying about it.
I build and run forums for a living. There are ways XDA could fix this by incorporating some modifications and buy changing search indexing settings.
And by you and others complaining you only make the mods jobs harder because now they have to weed through them too.
Sent from my LG-D851 using XDA Free mobile app
---------- Post added at 07:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:48 PM ----------
And using the term "leech" is just stupid and uncalled for. I guess this is the nastiness being mentioned in the op.
Sent from my LG-D851 using XDA Free mobile app
Richieboy67 said:
I don't hear you whining about these posts where people like you spend more time complaining then politely explaining an answer or suggestion.
I'm not saying people shouldn't search but it is bad enough to see all those posts and then on top of it have to read many others just crying about it.
I build and run forums for a living. There are ways XDA could fix this by incorporating some modifications and buy changing search indexing settings.
And by you and others complaining you only make the mods jobs harder because now they have to weed through them too.
Sent from my LG-D851 using XDA Free mobile app
---------- Post added at 07:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:48 PM ----------
And using the term "leech" is just stupid and uncalled for. I guess this is the nastiness being mentioned in the op.
Sent from my LG-D851 using XDA Free mobile app
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I have helped more than enough people, both on here and off. If me calling someone who only cares about themselves and not giving back a leech seriously is a problem, though I've helped tons, then people need thicker skin. I'm not cursing, yelling, belittling people's intelligence, or any of the sort. If someone only takes and doesn't give back, they are a leech. It's honestly very simple.
grayfoxmg1 said:
Check my other posts before you call me a leech, I was just agreeing the search on the mobile applications needs to be worked on. Thus I tend to cut people who's posts end with a Tapatalk or xda-mobile signature some slack. If the answer is on the OP or within 5 pages of the post I still get upset.
Knocked off my LG-D851
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Click to collapse
Wasn't referring to you, was just speaking about the users who just come, ask questions, then disappear. Sorry for the confusion.
Yes, people search the net and come here to ask a question. That is how most people end up at forums. Not everyone is a tech head and wants to stick around. That is not a leech and try to remember this site makes money by getting traffic.
I don't see how calling anyone a leech is helpful at all.
Furthermore, not everyone really knows how a forum works. Maybe a single person can politely mention a search may help but I don't see how 15 people blasting someone for asking a question helps the site at all.
Sent from my LG-D851 using XDA Free mobile app
Should we communicate new ideas and attempts via PMS or email? Did someone have an open thread elsewhere on xda? I check multiple times daily and have been attempting to learn and contribute. .since I am a noob I am typically quiet but I am down to test fur people if need be.
Dude dont even try it , leave it alone , to many emotional people in xda
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using XDA Free mobile app
GabrielOspina said:
Dude dont even try it , leave it alone , to many emotional people in xda
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using XDA Free mobile app
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Click to collapse
This is a legitimate question for the q/a forum...if they choose to lock it that is their prerogative. I have never made any trouble on this site...there is little reason. This post is not meantt to be inflammatory, I just genuinely want to know if XDAS part in our quest for root is over or not...I am not breaking any forum rules in posting this.
So do people still plan to work on the note 4 using this forum or is there somewhere else I should be focusing my attention to?
nygrik said:
Should we communicate new ideas and attempts via PMS or email? Did someone have an open thread elsewhere on xda? I check multiple times daily and have been attempting to learn and contribute. .since I am a noob I am typically quiet but I am down to test fur people if need be.
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Click to collapse
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=59056078&postcount=4
Because of the nonsense that goes on in root threads, no developer in their right mind will post any efforts in one of the threads in General. This is why developers have taken their efforts off of XDA and in private chats...and now no one learns anything here.
And no, you are not breaking rules by asking but you opened a thread where all the non-helping people from the other threads will have a place to go. So I am sure they will be quite proud to post something here to get this locked too.
Now Root will never be achieved, sadly.
ChefAnt said:
Now Root will never be achieved, sadly.
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Yes. Because closing a thread full of people with nothing better to do than post "are we there yet" and then start flaming each other will totally stop all work on root. Smh....I guess you didn't even bother to read my post above.
Wasnt their a bunch of devs in that thread finding exploits ??? Guess they are pming
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using XDA Free mobile app
GabrielOspina said:
Wasnt their a bunch of devs in that thread finding exploits ??? Guess they are pming
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using XDA Free mobile app
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As Kenny stated here. This is the best course to take. We know most of you guys think we are being jerks, but the bottom line is that thread is/was and would continue to be out of hand. Just because that thread is locked for now, does not mean devs are going to stop collaborating and find a method.
KennyG123 said:
Yes. Because closing a thread full of people with nothing better to do than post "are we there yet" and then start flaming each other will totally stop all work on root. Smh....I guess you didn't even bother to read my post above.
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Whoa, excuse me . I read your post and found no value in it. I merely made a statement (not even remotely regarding your profound post.) We paid a substantial amount of money for this phone. I also paid for the stupid XDA premium app to support the XDA community. I also have contributed much money to many devs in the past for previous phones I've owned. I believe I have a right to be kept in the know. Whether the know is what exploit developers are using to find root or useless banter from idiotic foreigners and newbs who have no idea what is going on is completely regardless. It's a public forum. The thread was posted in the general section. There was no warning in the title that it was a "Dev thread only." It wasn't just the idiots who were posting dumb comments, it was a lot of the ATT Note 4 Community that would post 4-5 replies after the "are we there yet?" posts that got the thread shut down. I enjoyed the thread, I learned a lot about exploits that I wouldn't have ever thought to research on my own. It was purely entertainment for me and it was taken away because the moderation can never handle anything properly.
Bridge is closed, troll. Go shake your head somewhere else. Nomsayin?
ChefAnt said:
Whoa, excuse me . I read your post and found no value in it. I merely made a statement (not even remotely regarding your profound post.) We paid a substantial amount of money for this phone. I also paid for the stupid XDA premium app to support the XDA community. I also have contributed much money to many devs in the past for previous phones I've owned. I believe I have a right to be kept in the know. Whether the know is what exploit developers are using to find root or useless banter from idiotic foreigners and newbs who have no idea what is going on is completely regardless. It's a public forum. The thread was posted in the general section. There was no warning in the title that it was a "Dev thread only." It wasn't just the idiots who were posting dumb comments, it was a lot of the ATT Note 4 Community that would post 4-5 replies after the "are we there yet?" posts that got the thread shut down. I enjoyed the thread, I learned a lot about exploits that I wouldn't have ever thought to research on my own. It was purely entertainment for me and it was taken away because the moderation can never handle anything properly.
Bridge is closed, troll. Go shake your head somewhere else. Nomsayin?
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Click to collapse
First off as Senior Moderator and Team Leader of this section, I AM NO TROLL! You certainly failed to comprehend my post and have some reading comprehension problems. YOUR post had absolutely no value and made no sense that a closed troll filled thread would stop you from getting root! Wow...just wow.
Now if you had read my post correctly I stated there IS an area for developers ONLY where people can see what is going on and not disturb the developers with useless posts like "Now we will never get root" or "Are we there yet". Try reading the original post a few times...then before you respond read it again. Feel free to take this to PM with me if you have any more criticisms of the avenues presented on this PRIVATE membership only development forum.
Cheers
KennyG123
Senior Moderator
KennyG123 said:
First off as Senior Moderator and Team Leader of this section, I AM NO TROLL! You certainly failed to comprehend my post and have some reading comprehension problems. YOUR post had absolutely no value and made no sense that a closed troll filled thread would stop you from getting root! Wow...just wow.
Now if you had read my post correctly I stated there IS an area for developers ONLY where people can see what is going on and not disturb the developers with useless posts like "Now we will never get root" or "Are we there yet". Try reading the original post a few times...then before you respond read it again. Feel free to take this to PM with me if you have any more criticisms of the avenues presented on this PRIVATE membership only development forum.
Cheers
KennyG123
Senior Moderator
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Click to collapse
Private?! OK buddy. I could have 4 accounts to this "private" forum in 5 mins. You guys give any moron a membership. You guys even made it easier for morons to join by making them watch a video rather than actually reading the rules before signing up. This is dumb. I have lost interest in all doings on this forum. Thanks for the boost of support from the Mod team. Did you have to watch a video before becoming a mod? Cheers.
ChefAnt said:
Private?! OK buddy. I could have 4 accounts to this "private" forum in 5 mins. You guys give any moron a membership. You guys even made it easier for morons to join by making them watch a video rather than actually reading the rules before signing up. This is dumb. I have lost interest in all doings on this forum. Thanks for the boost of support from the Mod team. Did you have to watch a video before becoming a mod? Cheers.
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Click to collapse
Actually yes we do. And please read those rules you so reverently talked about. Having more than one account is a rule violation.
ChefAnt said:
Private?! OK buddy. I could have 4 accounts to this "private" forum in 5 mins. You guys give any moron a membership. You guys even made it easier for morons to join by making them watch a video rather than actually reading the rules before signing up. This is dumb. I have lost interest in all doings on this forum. Thanks for the boost of support from the Mod team. Did you have to watch a video before becoming a mod? Cheers.
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Click to collapse
Man I usually don't post but **** I am so glad your gone. Best wishes
Wow...well you were right about having a place for people to cry...I was genuinely looking for a place to go keep learning and hopefully obtaining root...if you want to stop and close this thread I approve. No need for mods and users to be fighting and disrespecting eachother. I will continue my pursuit in other threads this one is finished for me.
Closed at OP's request.
Edfunkycold
Have a great day!