Develop Bugs

Poor GPS Locking?

Does anybody here experience poor GPS lock on with your Incredible 2's? I am coming from a droid pro which had no problem whatsoever establishing a lock, but the incredible 2 only seems to establish a lock after 5 minutes of having the google maps app on. The GPS status app doesn't seem to find any satellites out there either. I just got this phone from Costco and it's great otherwise but I want to know whether its this model's issue or if I got a defective phone.

Yeah mine took about three minutes to lock on with navigation beta.
Sent from my Incredible 2 using XDA App

I also remember that my Droid Pro has aGPS but the incredible 2 doesn't seem to have such an option. Is it hidden perhaps and does it help?
EDIT: Perhaps its just a coincidence.
http://phandroid.com/2011/08/22/ver...-weve-got-a-temporary-fix-for-you-forum-talk/
I just got the phone a few days ago when this issue may have come about, but as for the rest of you, how was your inc2 a few weeks/months earlier?

No problems here. I get an instant 10m lock inside my house, where my old fascinate would take 5 seconds to get a 20m lock.

Where are you located?

southern cali, i live in a pretty poor signal area too

Hmm, if you take a look at that phandroid link I put up, it seems that this issue is specifically in new york. Thanks for letting me know that it is not an issue with the phone model though.
As for the rest of you in new york, hows your gps?

You sure no agps with dinc2?
Sent from my Incredible 2 using Tapatalk

LeoBloom. said:
Hmm, if you take a look at that phandroid link I put up, it seems that this issue is specifically in new york. Thanks for letting me know that it is not an issue with the phone model though.
As for the rest of you in new york, hows your gps?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Rochester here.
Was having problems with GPS until this morning. Attempted to use Maps and it worked.
I also toggled Wifi in between, so that may be another workaround, but I haven't had sufficient time to test that (I'm at work).

I was having the same problem of slow gps lock. I installed GPS Status & Toolbox from the market. There is an option to reset your GPS and redownload the A-GPS data. Immediately after doing so, I got lock in under 10 seconds.
Sent from my Incredible 2 using Tapatalk

My Inc2 seems to be performing well today, getting locks by my apartment's windows within 20 seconds. I'm about to leave and I will test it outside and report back.

drcrawfo said:
I was having the same problem of slow gps lock. I installed GPS Status & Toolbox from the market. There is an option to reset your GPS and redownload the A-GPS data. Immediately after doing so, I got lock in under 10 seconds.
Sent from my Incredible 2 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is what I use if I'm having a slow gps lock. Works well for me
Sent from my Incredible 2 using Tapatalk

I believe there's been at least one Maps update which seemed to help GPS lock and corrected the compass direction problem.

Zelmo88 said:
I believe there's been at least one Maps update which seemed to help GPS lock and corrected the compass direction problem.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My compass was always backwards facing when I got my INC2, quite annoying. The only thing that fixed it was the OTA to GB. However, now that I have rooted and dropped MIUI on it, I am back to the backwards compass.
As for the lock issue, I get intermittent issues with that. Some days, the gps will find my signal and bring up my location almost dead on, other days it puts me at the tower, still other days it doesn't find me at all, and once it actually pulled google maps all the way over to Portugal. Since rooting and flashing, it has been pretty quick to grab the signal and puts me pretty close to location - but with a messed up compass pointer.

shanky0506 said:
Rochester here.
Was having problems with GPS until this morning. Attempted to use Maps and it worked.
I also toggled Wifi in between, so that may be another workaround, but I haven't had sufficient time to test that (I'm at work).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am just outside of Rochester NY. Mine is working again. There was some kind of outage around here. GPS didn't work on my Inc2 or any of my friends phones for days.

Takes about 60 sec in central NJ. About 3 min when traveling to SF this past week, and frequently off by about 20m, placing me on the wrong block. Even on I-280 it placed me on a side road.
Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk

Mine has gotten better each day I use it. Was terrible now locks on pretty fast.
Sent from my Incredible 2 using xda premium

What is the fix for backwards compass in miui?
Sent from my Incredible 2 using Tapatalk

dinc2 gps trouble FIX!
After a couple of weeks out of country and using an extended battery with my Droid Incredible 2, then switching back I was unable to receive any gps data. After combing the net for solutions and nearly unrooting my wonderful dinc2 I remembered the antenna connections on the back cover. There are a total of 4 gold connections made for gps and radio and have wire receivers taped to the back inside cover. If you bend the gold connections on the edge of the phone back out towards the rear they will connect with the back cover and re-establish the radio connections for your gps. I tried that with mine and got a gps lock in about 5 seconds using Google maps and navigation.
Good luck!

davewalker12000 said:
After a couple of weeks out of country and using an extended battery with my Droid Incredible 2, then switching back I was unable to receive any gps data. After combing the net for solutions and nearly unrooting my wonderful dinc2 I remembered the antenna connections on the back cover. There are a total of 4 gold connections made for gps and radio and have wire receivers taped to the back inside cover. If you bend the gold connections on the edge of the phone back out towards the rear they will connect with the back cover and re-establish the radio connections for your gps. I tried that with mine and got a gps lock in about 5 seconds using Google maps and navigation.
Good luck!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Same here. I dropped my phone and damaged the corner a little. It was just enough that the contacts weren't making. A little modding of them got me back in business.
Sent from my ADR6350 using xda app-developers app

GPS stopped working

Did anyone GPS just stop working mine was working fine but now it's not locating me at all but when i use wireless networks to find me it finds my location fast any help
Sent from my SPH-D710 using XDA App

my gps stopped working as well, it was locating me and everything, but when i tried 2 get directions, it wud not get them for me... this wat i did n it worked...
while phone was on, pulled the battery, put it back in, start up phone
go to "menu > settings > location & security"... 1st turn off all 3 settings "use wireless networks", "turn on gps", "use agps" w.e....
n den try using gps again, it shud work
ttieder said:
Did anyone GPS just stop working mine was working fine but now it's not locating me at all but when i use wireless networks to find me it finds my location fast any help
Sent from my SPH-D710 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

That did not work it works when i use wireless networks but no go with the GPS radio
Sent from my SPH-D710 using XDA App

My gps does not work at all. I am wondering if I should take the phone to get it repaired or replaced. I downloaded the gps status app and told it download agps data and that didn't help. Navigation will not work at all unless I have use wireless networks enabled in the locationand security settings. If that is not checked then the app stays at waiting for location. It isn't anything where I am that is blocking the signal either. There are 3 other smartphones in the house and they all get a gps lock quickly.

I had this issue with my first copy of the phone. When I went in to the sprint store they told me it was fine but I could barely get 3 satellites under open sky. I had the issue escalated and after 2 hrs on the phone they sent me a replacement. The replacement works perfectly. Really a night and day difference.
On both copies I remained completely stock. Even RTN'd the first copy twice just to be sure it was not radio setting issue.
Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk

There's an app called AGPS Injector that updates your AGPS position and you should be able to pick up GPS signal pretty quickly after your position is established via AGPS.

delfin12 said:
There's an app called AGPS Injector that updates your AGPS position and you should be able to pick up GPS signal pretty quickly after your position is established via AGPS.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I used gps status and gps test which both have an agps loading function and it did not help. If his device is like my first, I would not expect it to help him either.
I still have the first device, haven't sent it back yet. I will boot it up and try agps injector. I will also try to post a video showing the difference in gps performance.
-EDIT-
Here is the link to the youtube video i made.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpkiJeUQpvQ
Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk

I have both of those and still cannot get a gps lock but with my niece's epic in the exact same spot I get 6 satellites really quickly.

Try this in the dialer:
##GPSCLRX#
You will need an MSL. You may need to reboot (not sure about that one, I reboot.)
This is clear all incorrect AGPS data and download new correct one.
And this will fix your GPS unless it's physically defective.

nabbed said:
Try this in the dialer:
##GPSCLRX#
You will need an MSL. You may need to reboot (not sure about that one, I reboot.)
This is clear all incorrect AGPS data and download new correct one.
And this will fix your GPS unless it's physically defective.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This was also done for the defective device in the video I posted above. It did not help.
Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk

nabbed said:
Try this in the dialer:
##GPSCLRX#
You will need an MSL. You may need to reboot (not sure about that one, I reboot.)
This is clear all incorrect AGPS data and download new correct one.
And this will fix your GPS unless it's physically defective.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
People went through all this crap with the captive, what you are suggesting was only a temporary fix, get your phones replaced if you have gps issues.

nsxla said:
People went through all this crap with the captive, what you are suggesting was only a temporary fix, get your phones replaced if you have gps issues.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, what he said. +1

Has anyone been able to get an exchange because of gps? Also did u get a refurbish or a brand new one?
Sent From My Evo Killer!!!

musclehead84 said:
Has anyone been able to get an exchange because of gps? Also did u get a refurbish or a brand new one?
Sent From My Evo Killer!!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
would definitely like to know about this one. Also, anyone that takes their phone in to tech support to have it looked at, if you're running a custom rom / kernel do you return it to stock before bringing it in?

musclehead84 said:
Has anyone been able to get an exchange because of gps? Also did u get a refurbish or a brand new one?
Sent From My Evo Killer!!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They did replace it but not after a big ordeal. It was supposed to be a refurb but I got lucky and it just happen to be NIB. Don't expect the same though.
Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk

lattisimo said:
They did replace it but not after a big ordeal. It was supposed to be a refurb but I got lucky and it just happen to be NIB. Don't expect the same though.
Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Good for you. Were they trying to say that they are all the same? Just wondering what to expect. Also how is your new one?
Sent From My Evo Killer!!!

musclehead84 said:
Good for you. Were they trying to say that they are all the same? Just wondering what to expect. Also how is your new one?
Sent From My Evo Killer!!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
new one is fantastic. fast, accurate, and locks inside my house. just how it should be and just using gps, not using wireless networks. they showed me an htc device and tried to tell me that some devices just perform better than others. they would not, however, get another epic touch and show me that it performed the same as mine. that was why i ended up calling sprint and complained about the store not trying to recognize that i had a legitimate issue. after i spoke with the rep on the phone, then their manager, then having them send the issue to the escalations team. it took 2hrs on the phone and a call back 2 days later from the escalations team before they shipped me a replacement.
I posted the youtube vid so that people who do not have 2 epic touches can see that there is a clear issue with some handsets. i hope everyone else with this issue does not have to jump through the same hoops i had to. good luck to all of you. this is truly a fantastic device, if you get a good copy.

I think I am going to have to call as well. I went to get mine replaced. I can set it on the table beside my tablet and my tablet will pick up 11 satellites and get a location lock with 8 seconds. After 10 minutes the phone had done nothing. So I get to the sprint store and go to show them and low and behold the darn thing picks up 9 satellites and gets a location lock. I tried to explain to them that it wouldn't stay and I wasn't going to spend the entire day at the sprint store waiting to show them when it drops off again.

ElAguila said:
I think I am going to have to call as well. I went to get mine replaced. I can set it on the table beside my tablet and my tablet will pick up 11 satellites and get a location lock with 8 seconds. After 10 minutes the phone had done nothing. So I get to the sprint store and go to show them and low and behold the darn thing picks up 9 satellites and gets a location lock. I tried to explain to them that it wouldn't stay and I wasn't going to spend the entire day at the sprint store waiting to show them when it drops off again.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Exactly the issue I had. For just a moment before I took the video the defective unit had 7 satellites and 18 feet of accuracy but a few moments later it was complete crap again. The new copy has not failed once since I unboxed it over a week ago. I feel your pain sir. I wish you luck in getting it replaced.
Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk

lattisimo said:
Exactly the issue I had. For just a moment before I took the video the defective unit had 7 satellites and 18 feet of accuracy but a few moments later it was complete crap again. The new copy has not failed once since I unboxed it over a week ago. I feel your pain sir. I wish you luck in getting it replaced.
Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Do you have T.E.P. on your phone? Did sprint charge you anything for the exchange? They're telling me they are going to charge me $35 to exchange the phone. It has only been 15 or so days since I've actually received and started using the phone. The other option is to add TEP to my line for $8 a month and then cancel it. Honestly, I think they should just exchange it on the fact that it is defected and cover it under the samsung warranty, but that's me. Opinions?

GPS performance

I am thinking of getting an S III when the 64 gb one comes out. How's the GPS? My wife's S II GPS is lousy. I know Sammy has (had) that reputation. My Motorola Photon GPS is very good. Sorry if this is a duplicate. I couldn't find anything in a search
Sent from my MB855 using xda premium

I have found the GPS to be excellent on the gs3. I came from gs2 epic touch which had horrible GPS at times - completely wiping the phone and installing the ice cream sandwhich software helped a lot though.

nicholz said:
I have found the GPS to be excellent on the gs3. I came from gs2 epic touch which had horrible GPS at times - completely wiping the phone and installing the ice cream sandwhich software helped a lot though.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks! That's what my wife haas and it's unusable. My old Epic 4G had a terrible GPS as well. My Photon is stuck on Gingerbread but the GPS works well. I think the s3 looks like a winner. Now if only Sprint was......
Sent from my MB855 using xda premium

GPS is working well for me on my GS3.. Stock

My GPS works great. Even used it today when i had no cell signal, took a little extra time but got a lock and followed me in Google maps.
Sent from Pluto.

Yeah GPS is better on the gs3 than the epic touch which I had before
Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

Thanks! It seems that this phone has a good GPS. I hope the other radios are as good as the Photon. The GS II are definitely inferior to the photon...
Sent from my MB855 using xda premium

sndtubes said:
I am thinking of getting an S III when the 64 gb one comes out. How's the GPS? My wife's S II GPS is lousy. I know Sammy has (had) that reputation. My Motorola Photon GPS is very good. Sorry if this is a duplicate. I couldn't find anything in a search
Sent from my MB855 using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
GPS is phenomenal. Domestic sattelites and GLONASS. Even has a damn barometer so it can use pressure to gauge height.
Samsung has fixed their traditional gps problem. This is the best location solution on the market.
Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

Wow. I am considering migrating to the S3 from the epic 4G. The GPS was always a sore spot with me. The S3 sounds better and better. Now if it only had the slide out keyboard....

labumm said:
Wow. I am considering migrating to the S3 from the epic 4G. The GPS was always a sore spot with me. The S3 sounds better and better. Now if it only had the slide out keyboard....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
When I left my Touch Pro 2 for the Evo 4G I really thought I would miss the physical keyboard. I do miss it every one in a while but with the bigger screen and Swype I really do not miss the keyboard much.

Poor GPS reception on GS3 - - Please help...
I have been having problems out of my GS3's gps reception. Navigation will not lock on satellites. Telenav isn't much better. Sometimes, Navigation will revert to cell tower triangulation and give me a general location, but forget it when it comes to navigating with it.
I was rooted, but I have reverted back to stock with QBKing77's method and sextape's all in one stock rom. The problem started after reverting to stock so I think this might be the culprit. I am going to take it to a repair center and act like there has been no modification and see what they say.
But I wanted to check here first.
Thanks

I came from photon. Had issues where the phone has to be rebooted to get a GPS lock. No issues on the gs3. Stock jb and ics for a couple of weeks.
Sent from my SPH-L710 using xda app-developers app

Bdozier said:
I have been having problems out of my GS3's gps reception. Navigation will not lock on satellites. Telenav isn't much better. Sometimes, Navigation will revert to cell tower triangulation and give me a general location, but forget it when it comes to navigating with it.
I was rooted, but I have reverted back to stock with QBKing77's method and sextape's all in one stock rom. The problem started after reverting to stock so I think this might be the culprit. I am going to take it to a repair center and act like there has been no modification and see what they say.
But I wanted to check here first.
Thanks
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You could try installing GPS Status from the Play Store and use it to clear and refresh your GPS data. That may require root, though. This was how a lot of people used to fix GPS on the Evo 4G when using GB and ICS AOSP ROMs.

EndlessDissent said:
You could try installing GPS Status from the Play Store and use it to clear and refresh your GPS data. That may require root, though. This was how a lot of people used to fix GPS on the Evo 4G when using GB and ICS AOSP ROMs.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The app does not require root. Great program. Still had GPS issues though. Swapped it out since I have insurance. Now, every other day or so, I have to restart my new phone to get it to connect to satellites. Weird. I wish I knew what was going on or at least that someone else was having the same problems.

Bdozier said:
The app does not require root. Great program. Still had GPS issues though. Swapped it out since I have insurance. Now, every other day or so, I have to restart my new phone to get it to connect to satellites. Weird. I wish I knew what was going on or at least that someone else was having the same problems.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have the very same issues with my S3 which is only less than a month old. Didn't why at first, and took it to Sprint Store and they said it was the bad antenna and will give me a refurbish phone. I didn't understand??? Kind of like, I bought a brand new car and take in for a fix and dealer took me to the use car lot for a certificated vehicle. They refused to give me a new phone, so I contact Samsung for repair.
Just my phone and the same problem reoccurring.
Please if someone can help? I always come here for advices...search all over the net, but no luck.
Help...

In Sprint store, GSII, 2 GSIIIs, 2 Notes an no GPS connection! But HTC EvoLTE locked

My replacement E4GT's gps just does not work, brought it to store and they said they "fixed" it with some software patch. Well as I suspected it did not fix it and would love to know about this patch but didn't get any info out of them.
Went back and tested gps on a gsii, 2 gsiiis, 2 notes and none of them would get a gps lock. Tried HTC evo lte and gps locked almost instantly. Repair guy said he can reload original GB on my phone to see if that makes it work, he said he still has gb on his phone and it is better than current.
I can get a replacement but it will count towards my 3 exchanges per year, trying to argue that they gave me a defective phone from the start and that it should not count.
Oh well, my wife's E4GT gps locks instantly while mine keeps blinking for hours in the same spot. Both phones are on official OTA and no root.
I really like this phone and love that it is wimax since no lte yet, just sick of getting defective ones. Going back tomorrow to talk to someone else there and then will decide about exchange.
I could not believe that the GSIIIs and Note 2s would not even get a gps lock at the store but HTC did, Samsung really needs to do better with this.

Samsung phones have bad gps radios
Htc has better ones that's about it

Couple things I'd try, since this doesn't seem to be a typical "how do I fix" thread.. Or the beer kicked in..
Did you try a side by side with something like GPS Test from the play store?
Do you have access or know someone with a Garmin to test visible satellites at the same time as the phone(s)?
I'm interested if it is actually hardware or software related.
Sent from my SPH-D710 using Xparent ICS Tapatalk 2

My replacement sucks too. I always seem to be roaming and I have no GPS. I'm in fk23 with the new prl but it was the same when I first connected the phone stock. I even left the store while it was roaming
Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

I like Sammy phones but I've always notices bad reception with cell towers and gps
Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

I just bought the Note 2 and the gps on it is amazing. I get instant locks with 3m accuracy. The Note 2 has glonass also to help with gps.

MoHoGalore said:
Couple things I'd try, since this doesn't seem to be a typical "how do I fix" thread.. Or the beer kicked in..
Did you try a side by side with something like GPS Test from the play store?
Do you have access or know someone with a Garmin to test visible satellites at the same time as the phone(s)?
I'm interested if it is actually hardware or software related.
Sent from my SPH-D710 using Xparent ICS Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have had my E4GT next to my wifes E4GT with same stock OTA FI27 and hers locks pretty damn fast while my GPS icon blinks for an hour. I also had my phone in my car right next to my Garmin Nuvi and that locks and my phone does not.
I have downloaded GPS status tools from Play store and when I open that all it does is say searching for GPS....
I even grabbed another E4GT from someone and that GPS locked almost instantly!! It was on Calks GB 3.0

cdszoke said:
I just bought the Note 2 and the gps on it is amazing. I get instant locks with 3m accuracy. The Note 2 has glonass also to help with gps.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am glad to hear this, my comment wasn't to say that all Notes have bad GPS, just my observation while in the Sprint store.
The GPS on my previous E4GTs have all worked but this one I have now does not.

My phone wouldnt lock either. I always lock gps in an app like gps status before anything. Anyway all I do is shut gps off then back on. Reboot with gps on. When booted up run gps status outside, get lock. After that it always locks instantly. I have to do this with every flash or it will not lock. I think its software not hardware
Sent from my SPH-D710 using xda app-developers app

You aren't alone. I've had two E4GT and the GPS is horrible and sporadic. If you're indoors forget about even trying to get a lock.

There is some sort of hardware problem with some, but not all, samsung phones. My old e4gt had absolutely awful gps, and my new one locks incredibly quickly, indoors or not. I tried every single "fix" out there, probably flashed at least 15 different zips and settings. The simple answer is that the onlt way to fix the problem is with a new phone - and even then, it's a lottery.
Sent from my SPH-D710 using xda app-developers app

My GNote locks on instantly also. Big improvement in that department over the E4GT.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

Better nav app?

i really dont like the stock navigation app because it gets my phone hotter than anything else, even more than when im in recovery. anyone using a different app that doesnt heat up so much? thanks!

Navfree is pretty awesome and doesn't require data. Pretty handy if you are out in the country with no service. It also was great in Mexico. Plus, it is free.
Sent from my LG-LS970 using xda premium

Yeah, Navfree is not bad. I use it a few times with my tablet just for fun. Although the address entry system is not great (think old school GPS, where you select the state, city, street name, then enter the street number). The fact that you store the map on your phone should help with temperature (phone not constantly downloading new map data).

Thanks for the reply's but I thought back to my old blackberry and got telenav. I like the interface and hopefully the heat issue dissipates
Sent from my LG-LS970 using xda premium

I don't really see how you could get any better than the stock navigation app. As for your heat "issue", that is because while using navigation you have a constant GPS lock, constantly downloading new data, and your CPU is likely pegged pretty high trying to keep up with all the data. That's just how navigation works. Both of those things will increase the temp, happened on every smartphone I've had. Being charged while doing all that will increase the temp even more.
It could help some if you downloaded a map to your phone, by using the download for offline use feature. I have done that for a massive area around where I live and should never really have to download new data unless I decide to take a trip.

ncfastls1 said:
It could help some if you downloaded a map to your phone, by using the download for offline use feature. I have done that for a massive area around where I live and should never really have to download new data unless I decide to take a trip.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I 2nd this...GPS is always a phone-killer. Like the others, this is my 4th phone & they all burn up. My DroidX wasn't able to be held after...

i used telenav it didnt even heat up my phone to 1/2 of the temp of the stock nav so im gonna stick with it

I like stock

I use waze
Sent from my LG-LS970

Copilot GPS!

ncfastls1 said:
It could help some if you downloaded a map to your phone, by using the download for offline use feature. I have done that for a massive area around where I live and should never really have to download new data unless I decide to take a trip.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I would like to know how to use the download fort office use feature. I can't seem to find that option. I guess I'm not really sure what the stock nav app is though. I have one with the blue arrow for an icon.

javskies said:
i used telenav it didnt even heat up my phone to 1/2 of the temp of the stock nav so im gonna stick with it
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i use telenav and it heats up my phone like no other, especially when i use it for and hour and a half

arpman said:
i use telenav and it heats up my phone like no other, especially when i use it for and hour and a half
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
really? i havent had it heat up yet, not even on my three hour drive north.

I use Scout it works pretty good
Sent from my LG-LS970 using xda app-developers app

Best GPS app is Garmin Navigon. Hands down. Pricey but worth it.
Sent from my LG-LS970 using xda app-developers app

I just started using Waze, Google was smart to buy this company although a billion dollars seems pretty high.