Related
Ok, now the the 1 Million Dollar question. I'm thinking of my HTC Nike an the whole htcclassaction Issue.
I know the Desire has an 600 MHz DSP for decoding 720p video. I know Qualcomm states that the Snapdragon does have "High-performance 3D graphics – up to 22M triangles/sec and 133M 3D pixels/sec".
I know Android 2.1 supports OpenGL ES 2.
But does the Desire have an own GPU for 3D, Graphics and GUI like the Iphone (no, I don't like the Iphone) or does it run things like Android GUI or 3D in Software?
I'm planning to buy a Desire next week, but if HTC misses again, it would be an huge point against the Desire (at least for me).
Nope its all part of the Snapdragon CPU its not a separate GPU like the iPhone, Droid or Nokia N900.
The Snapdragon can't match the OMAP 3460 in 3D performance unfortunately. Thankfully for us though, snapdragon android phones are WAY more numerous than OMAP phones so most games will be optimized for the Snapdragon
Wow, that really sucks. So i think i will wait until there is a smartphone with Tegra or maybe Tegra 2. But thanks for you reply.
If you want pure (graphics) performance you should skip qualcomm-enabled devices.
See video comparison (ToonWarz)
HTC Desire (qualcom snapdragon 1ghz + Adreno 200 GPU)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVzkank7iOw
Motorola Milestone (ARM Cortex 8 550Mhz + PowerVR GPU) - min 4:23
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mn-XaaQXIxw
You can wait till Samsung Galaxy S and see how it performs.. even if i hate samsung custom UI and all iphone copying stuff
L.E.
Another example (Asphalt 5)
- Motorola Milestone: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUlsfP38lSM
- HTC Desire: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIEwlL73utM
As you can see the performance is better in good old Motorola Milestone.
In general, you can skip HTC cos' they always use the cheapest piece of hardware. And that's not only related to SoC (CPU, GPU) but also related to display (see the multitouch bug, a lot of videos there - Motorola Milestone doesn't suffer for this). The things I will mis about HTC are the Sense UI and trackball. Otherwise, screw htc.
OK, now I'm a little confused. So the Desire does have a GPU (Adreno 200)? And I was looking at benchmarks in youtube (I cannot post links, so search for "Motorola Milestone/Nexus One - Neocore Benchmark") where Milestone gets 20,6 fps and Desire 26,3 fps.
But I fear that again HTC misses to hardware accelerate the GUI.
Hirsch2k said:
OK, now I'm a little confused. So the Desire does have a GPU (Adreno 200)? And I was looking at benchmarks in youtube (I cannot post links, so search for "Motorola Milestone/Nexus One - Neocore Benchmark") where Milestone gets 20,6 fps and Desire 26,3 fps.
But I fear that again HTC misses to hardware accelerate the GUI.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Neocore is Qualcomm optimized so it will always outperform the Milestone. In raw 3d power, the milestone can perform better.
Hm, I think I will wait for the Samsung Galaxy S.
Galaxy s is samsung... and this mean it sux. They have no care about fixing buggs, look at omnia 2, since june last year, no one upgrade, i have a bug that i cant send message to some number in my phone. And a lot of.. They do not optimize phone. They sell you one, that's it. You are alone now. Good luck with samsung, my f.....g samsung is still waitng to be repaired, 3 month in support assistant mean for me never get 1 only things that have samsung writed
Hirsch2k said:
Hm, I think I will wait for the Samsung Galaxy S.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I wouldn't bother.
Developers back the majority and the majority is Snapdragon powered phones, not OMAP and not whatever chip Samsung is using.
sonyxperia2 said:
Galaxy s is samsung... and this mean it sux. They have no care about fixing buggs, look at omnia 2, since june last year, no one upgrade, i have a bug that i cant send message to some number in my phone. And a lot of.. They do not optimize phone. They sell you one, that's it. You are alone now. Good luck with samsung, my f.....g samsung is still waitng to be repaired, 3 month in support assistant mean for me never get 1 only things that have samsung writed
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You talk like as htc does care.. well, for your information htc doesn't really care. just if you look back in past you'll see. yes, i'm a dissapointed htc hero user cos their lack of interest in this device (they announced an update for hero last year in december if i'm not wrong... nothing we received). before hero i had a touch pro. the most expensive piece of **** i bought. laggy, full of bugs & so on.
let's not generalize that samsung is crap.. maybe you've got a faulty device. i've seen on forums many omnia happy users.
ah.. and i cannot comment the part of your phone in service.. maybe got lost somewhere.. hmm
abc27 if Samsung Galaxy S is top notch in reality i doubt it will be unsuccessfull. let's wait and see
grr, if the galaxy s had an trackball
competition is realy good in Android world. i'm sick and tired of htc monopoly
DSF said:
You talk like as htc does care.. well, for your information htc doesn't really care. just if you look back in past you'll see. yes, i'm a dissapointed htc hero user cos their lack of interest in this device (they announced an update for hero last year in december if i'm not wrong... nothing we received). before hero i had a touch pro. the most expensive piece of **** i bought. laggy, full of bugs & so on.
let's not generalize that samsung is crap.. maybe you've got a faulty device. i've seen on forums many omnia happy users.
ah.. and i cannot comment the part of your phone in service.. maybe got lost somewhere.. hmm
abc27 if Samsung Galaxy S is top notch in reality i doubt it will be unsuccessfull. let's wait and see
grr, if the galaxy s had an trackball
competition is realy good in Android world. i'm sick and tired of htc monopoly
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Samsung make great TVs but sadly that's pretty much all they're good at making. It doesn't matter if you have a superphone with a 3GHz quad core processor and dual graphics cards. If it's not a popular CPU/GPU platform then nothing will be developed to use that power and nothing will be optimized for it.
chrism_scotland said:
Nope its all part of the Snapdragon CPU its not a separate GPU like the iPhone, Droid or Nokia N900.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry, but this is incorrect.
Both the Snapdragon processor (Qualcomm) in the Desire, and the OMAP processor (TI) in the iPhone/Droid have integrated GPUs as part of the SoC (system on a chip).
However, the PowerVR GPU in the TI processor is more capable than the Imageon GPU in the Qualcomm.
Regards,
Dave
Before I bought the Desire, I knew that it wont do better in games then IPhone but then again I have a PSP for mobile gaming which is better then IPhone. If I really wanted touchscreen games I would just buy a DS.
Nekromantik said:
Before I bought the Desire, I knew that it wont do better in games then IPhone but then again I have a PSP for mobile gaming which is better then IPhone. If I really wanted touchscreen games I would just buy a DS.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sony (NOT SONY ERICSSON) are apparently planning on releasing a PSP phone sometime late 2010 or early 2011 from a few unconfirmed reports. That sounds like it would be a beast of a phone. I'd imagine Sony would just have the PSP OS running alongside Android or maybe they're developing a proprietary OS that runs PSP games as well as functions as a phone.
abc27 said:
Samsung make great TVs but sadly that's pretty much all they're good at making. It doesn't matter if you have a superphone with a 3GHz quad core processor and dual graphics cards. If it's not a popular CPU/GPU platform then nothing will be developed to use that power and nothing will be optimized for it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Games, in general, are using OpenGL which is standard. Qualcomm Snapdragon is similar to ARM Cortex A8: FPU, NEON etc. (see http://www.dspdesignline.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=204700527 )
So I'm sure that a game optimized for snapdragons will work (if not better) also on a powerVR/arm cortex a8 solution.
Many cool games are available for Android and upcoming.
Unfortunately HTC is using the cheap SoC from qualcomm so due the poor GPU the games aren't running smothly.
You can see here a comparison of Gangstar West Coast Hustle
- Nexus One (same hardware as Desire)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOZtM6YK9zo
- Motorola Milestone
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUJwONg9UP0
As you can see the game runs way better in good old Motorola Milestone. And that's not the most powerful GPU on the mobile world.
And here you can see the Samsung Galaxy S in action:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQ4N7QAlHd4
Clearly I will not get a HTC+Qualcomm SoC (this combination) again. GG competition.
+ Those phones are not affected of the multitouch bug that is present on so many HTC devices (and many htc devices are dual touch).
htc = cheap capacitive layer, cheap soc => expensive device. does it deserve this? actually they are smart.. using cheap hardware and sell the device overpriced.
@abc27 actually HTC (also Apple on their iPhone) is using many components from Samsung, for eg: displays, ram modules... Samsung it's a top semiconductors company.. So Samsung is not a cheap company. But I have to agree, their software customizations are awful
After installing RSD Lite. I could see S Flash OMAP3630 after I plugin the defy via usb while the phone is on bootloader (Power+VolUp)
Does it mean the the defy has a OMAP3630 and not a 3610?
Yes, a lot of people says "that is an error!! DONT CARE!"
A loot of people says, no, other says yes, and motorola don't care about it...
But in my opinion have a 3630 ( not sure ).
I think thats what the driver say it is...
The only way to find out will be to install a 3610 driver specifically and try if PC recognizes this. Doesnt it make sense?
why motorola make a 3630 driver for a 3610 CPu?
no logic...
tomeu0000 said:
why motorola make a 3630 driver for a 3610 CPu?
no logic...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
its an unified driver for the hole range of 36xx cpu's.
and in the other thread its come to the point it's a 3615 cpu with 3D but without 720p encoding/decoding ...
inteks said:
its an unified driver for the hole range of 36xx cpu's.
and in the other thread its come to the point it's a 3615 cpu with 3D but without 720p encoding/decoding ...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i know this thread (i contributed some posts myself) but when its a 3615 w 3d and w/o hd en/decoding, how come that it plays 720p content in mp4/h.264 like a charm?
source: http://www.phonearena.com/reviews/Motorola-DEFY-Review_id2578/page/3
i think, we can't be shure until it the defy gets shred to pieces by ifixit or some other daredevil
PUSH!!!
derbestimmer said:
i know this thread (i contributed some posts myself) but when its a 3615 w 3d and w/o hd en/decoding, how come that it plays 720p content in mp4/h.264 like a charm?
source: http://www.phonearena.com/reviews/Motorola-DEFY-Review_id2578/page/3
i think, we can't be shure until it the defy gets shred to pieces by ifixit or some other daredevil
PUSH!!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes it's possible, but if the bit rate goes up 4mb/s, you can't play it.. why?
easy, the band width isn't sufficient, and phone overloads.
I thing a bitrate of 30000kbps it's ok, nothing more....
PD: srry for my bad english
the processor of defy is a Texas Instruments OMAP3630 because it included a POWERVR SGX graphics 530. POWERVR is recognized by Quadrant.
focus.ti.com/lit/ml/swpt024b/swpt024b.pdf
wwwimgtec.com/factsheets/powervr/POWERVR_SGX_Series5_IP_Core_Family.pdf
inteks said:
its an unified driver for the hole range of 36xx cpu's.
and in the other thread its come to the point it's a 3615 cpu with 3D but without 720p encoding/decoding ...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's physically impossible!
Only 3630/3622 come with the package required for POP (stacked memory chip). If it is 361x, where is the memory chip? It's very hard to miss shuch a huge chip.
eykxas said:
the processor of defy is a Texas Instruments OMAP3630 because it included a POWERVR SGX graphics 530. POWERVR is recognized by Quadrant.
focus.ti.com/lit/ml/swpt024b/swpt024b.pdf
wwwimgtec.com/factsheets/powervr/POWERVR_SGX_Series5_IP_Core_Family.pdf
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, that's an outdated presentation. In the latest (Nov. 2010) Technical Reference Manual, ALL 36xx variants have identical full speed GPUs.
So where can we find the Windows 7 drivers for this so I can get RSDLite working?
At the moment getting a msg indicating drivers are not installed??
Edit: used winxp machine. S/W issue at my end.
hi, i want do something on AM3703, it's same with omap 3630? thanks in advance!
I hope so ,but ,I don't believe it has the opma3630.may be there is an error on the software.If defy's cpu is 3630,it can be more attracktive!so,why moto didn't tell us it's cpu is 3630?
Believe what u want...it works...and it works great
Thats all that matters
When the Defy+ comes out, just benchmark it...surely a 3610 + kyro will be slightly less powerful than a 3630
周矛顺啊 said:
I hope so ,but ,I don't believe it has the opma3630.may be there is an error on the software.If defy's cpu is 3630,it can be more attracktive!so,why moto didn't tell us it's cpu is 3630?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Same reason they used when they said it didn't have ANY Graphic Chip and the same one when they said the phone only had a 2 point Multitouch Screen.
I believe they limited the device softwarewise in order to strategise the launch of its successor Defy+ .
Why just not compare performance with phones for which we know they have 3630 for sure and then we will know
Zephyrot said:
Same reason they used when they said it didn't have ANY Graphic Chip and the same one when they said the phone only had a 2 point Multitouch Screen.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sounds like either moto has a plan and lied, or their spokes person havent a clue.
I vote for the latter...
i think defy's cpu is 3630.so defy+ update cpu to 3630 is a joke.
Hi ,
Although many people believe that defy uses OMAP 3630 instead of 3610/3615 or something else, you can only get this conclusion from the 3D/video performance or features defy supported. But the problem is, can you be sure?
I wrote a small native C program and read out the value of CPU's register that controls the OMAP FEATURE. The value is 0xC00. You can check the 36xx TRM:
at focus.ti.com/pdfs/wtbu/SWPU177B_FinalEPDF_12_04_2009.pdf
The values means that defy has a IVA 2.2 accellerator 2.2 and SGX .
So the CPU is neither 3610 nor 3615 . It is definitely 3630-800.
I think this is a convincing proof. If you still dont believe it, the only way is to open your defy and take a look at the ID on the chip...
BTW: I only tested on my phone, which is UK 2.21 version. Not sure for other version....
reasly said:
Hi ,
Although many people believe that defy uses OMAP 3630 instead of 3610/3615 or something else, you can only get this conclusion from the 3D/video performance or features defy supported. But the problem is, can you be sure?
I wrote a small native C program and read out the value of CPU's register that controls the OMAP FEATURE. The value is 0xC00. You can check the 36xx TRM:
at focus.ti.com/pdfs/wtbu/SWPU177B_FinalEPDF_12_04_2009.pdf
The values means that defy has a IVA 2.2 accellerator 2.2 and SGX 535.
So the CPU is neither 3610 nor 3615 . It is definitely 3630-800.
I think this is a convincing proof. If you still dont believe it, the only way is to open your defy and take a look at the ID on the chip...
BTW: I only tested on my phone, which is UK 2.21 version. Not sure for other version....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The kernel boot message also tells me that defy has a 3630 cpu .so i can confirmed it has the 3630 cpu.
in youtube i saw one video of a review of the Defy and he said that he plays smoothly 720p videos and has show one 720p video on the defy
Is it possible ?
I am not sure. Can someone post a video sample? By saying "720P" , what is the coding format? Maybe someone can post a 720P video sample recorded by MS2.
rocklee80 said:
in youtube i saw one video of a review of the Defy and he said that he plays smoothly 720p videos and has show one 720p video on the defy
Is it possible ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
ME525 aka Chinese Version of MB525 which running froyo build can play 720p.
SGX 535 - rly?
btw. did you notice, the ti document has 3630 pages!!! this must be a sign that the defy has a 3630! just kiddin... this is good news!
faulta said:
SGX 535 - rly?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
sorry my mistake, should be 530
derbestimmer said:
btw. did you notice, the ti document has 3630 pages!!! this must be a sign that the defy has a 3630! just kiddin... this is good news!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
haha I agree!!!
@reasly: could you please explain what your program exactly does? i understand it as a tool which reads out a special hardware register (the one which stands für the iva2.2 module according to the ti document) and returns a value. the value 0xC00 means module existent and something like 0x000 means module not existent. am i understanding it correctly?
TRM does not list such CPU as 3610, it mentions 3611 as most limited by features. As 36xx are produced for big corporations like Moto, we can't be sure what's really going on with CPU naming. It looks more like marketing stuff for me.
I also got [email protected] for Defy bough at T-Mobile USA. It does not directly confirm that the CPU is 3630. It just reports that such features as IVA or SGX are not disabled.
Motorola can say the CPU is 3610 (whatever) with those features enabled ;-)
my point exactly! its just names & marketing mumbo jumbo. the important thing is the enabled AND ACCESSABLE features. and with th iva2.2 module working there is a good possibility to enable 720p encoding/decoding on the device, which would be important for me.
tenfar said:
The kernel boot message also tells me that defy has a 3630 cpu .so i can confirmed it has the 3630 cpu.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Can you make a video of 2.2 chinese Defy rom you are playing a 720p Video pls ?
rocklee80 said:
Can you make a video of 2.2 chinese Defy rom you are playing a 720p Video pls ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
720p (1280x720) is too high a resolution for the Defy (854x480). You would be wasting space/resources to display a scaled-down video.
Consider converting a 720p video to a more useful format for your device
Unless ofcourse you just want to see it, 'because it can be done'.
I took a look at the technical reference (page 193 of 3630..lol!) in the CONTROL_FEATURE_OMAP_STATUS register description.
The value 0xC00 translates to 0000 1100 0000 0000, that is NO IVA hardware acceleration and 128K L2 cache, if I'm right.
Where did you get those info's about it being the 3630??
You should give that program to a droid X user to run on its phone...
thenext1 said:
I took a look at the technical reference (page 193 of 3630..lol!) in the CONTROL_FEATURE_OMAP_STATUS register description.
The value 0xC00 translates to 0000 1100 0000 0000, that is NO IVA hardware acceleration and 128K L2 cache, if I'm right.
Where did you get those info's about it being the 3630??
You should give that program to a droid X user to run on its phone...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
please count more carefully BIT[11:10]=2'b11
sorry, i don't get the whole bit counting ting. could you please explain, how it works according to the reference manual? thank you.
Z
Sent from my MB525 using Tapatalk
ajakob said:
Z
Sent from my MB525 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What's this?? LOL
tomeu0000 said:
What's this?? LOL
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Zorro was here, and he is using a DEFY.
still the same problem... we need to successfully confirm what processor have our phone...
Hi guys.
Do you know samsung galaxy 551? It looks like wave 533 (size, screen resolution), but it has android instead of bada.
Would it be possible to flash 551's FW into wave 533/525/723?
Thanks.
hey man dont just dream in the sky..
comebach to the earth and deal with reality.
agreed that it can be possible but its not so easy as you think it to be.
oleg_k and other devs are engaged in android port for senior wave since long time but still there is no way out there for a functional port.
m90ultimate said:
hey man dont just dream in the sky..
comebach to the earth and deal with reality.
agreed that it can be possible but its not so easy as you think it to be.
oleg_k and other devs are engaged in android port for senior wave since long time but still there is no way out there for a functional port.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So, don't forget that LG released Froyo for KH5200 and actually is used also for GW620 (officialy unsupported). I transformed my wife's GW620 in froyo 3 days ago with LG official release for KH5200, everything is ok and more fest than GW620's Cupcake. Never say never, she (sirlene) said that because she hopes that can help port devs to see this and test it if is possible.
Plese put here a discussion were anyone was tested a 551 fw in 533 or 525/ or 23 and finally you will be right.
I'm not fighting, this is just an earful.
there is a big difference between using a different Android platform on a device that ALREADY uses android, and putting android on a device that uses a COMPLETELY different OS core (bada with Nucleus kernel).
Maybe. but gislene said that because she believes 533 maybe is same or compatible hardware from 551. that's the point.
Is like compare a PC with linux or windows. and I can't use my OSes from my Phenom II X4 in my Atom 330 PC, but I can use Linux or Windows instead.
And finally, if I change my Atom 330 PC HDD to my Atom 230 PC the system works fine, not the same hardware but is same chipsets and compatilble processor
Think this =]
kimbrasil said:
Maybe. but gislene said that because she believes 533 maybe is same or compatible hardware from 551. that's the point.
Is like compare a PC with linux or windows. and I can't use my OSes from my Phenom II X4 in my Atom 330 PC, but I can use Linux or Windows instead.
And finally, if I change my Atom 330 PC HDD to my Atom 230 PC the system works fine, not the same hardware but is same chipsets and compatilble processor
Think this =]
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Then try this and brick your phone... If you read the Android porting thread you will see that it's not as easy as one thinks...
kimbrasil said:
Maybe. but gislene said that because she believes 533 maybe is same or compatible hardware from 551. that's the point.
Is like compare a PC with linux or windows. and I can't use my OSes from my Phenom II X4 in my Atom 330 PC, but I can use Linux or Windows instead.
And finally, if I change my Atom 330 PC HDD to my Atom 230 PC the system works fine, not the same hardware but is same chipsets and compatilble processor
Think this =]
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
..but PC have not a locked bootloader and a mobile os it's not like that of a desktop
hardware seems also different, galaxy seems more powerfull but no info about cpu model of wave 723:
http://pdadb.net/index.php?m=specs&id=2582&view=1&c=samsung_gt-i5510_galaxy_551
http://www.phonearena.com/phones/Samsung-Wave-723_id4867
Ya guys, I know, but m90ultimate was very rude with gislene and don't understood what she really tried to be grasped.
kimbrasil said:
gislene said that because she believes 533 maybe is same or compatible hardware from 551.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The hope was that devices have very similar engineering. I know the processors are quite different, the huge Cortex 1GHz architecture is not like a simple ARM 650MHz, but I really can't say if the simple ARM system will not work in Cortex processor. And maybe the system inside have I/O compatibility with some Samsung models, to simplify the production. Korean mobile brands always make this (Ezio, LG and Samsung), using the same Qualcomm or MediaTek like chipsets for all line production with same RTOS layer.
I exemplified with PC to explain what she said. And I know the protection layer of Bada devices is so hard to be unbreaked, not so simple like install a new OS in PC or change HDDs.
And really who try that is because have enough knowledge in how to unbrick and recover the device if the other fw don't work, is not a "dream in the sky".
PS: If I reprogram my PC BIOS with other MoBo BIOS possibly will brick it and maybe burn it! thats obvious!
I need a new mobile.I have considered Desire and Defy.The only difference between this two is the processor.Defy has 800MHz Cortex-A8 processor and the desire has 1 GHz Scorpion processor.Which is the best between these two.I need it mainly for gaming.So i need all the latest games to work without any lag.Does heavy games run on Defy without any lag?
Sorry for my Bad English
Not an expert in games here... but i can tell you Cortex from TI is much better in terms of performances. I'd go for Defy even if the Qualcomm cpu inside Desire clocks 200mhz more...
EDIT: also consider the PowerVR 530 graphic chip inside the Defy, it's not bad for gaming. AFAIK you can run any game with no problems provided that you download the powerVR version of the game (i mean, forget those Tegra2 or Xperia Play dedicated games)
For processor of defy, tout can overclock it to 1.2 ghz. for tegra games, download chain fire 3d from market. You have to be rooted to do both.
Got a Headache? It's all in your Head.
xdaid said:
Not an expert in games here... but i can tell you Cortex from TI is much better in terms of performances. I'd go for Defy even if the Qualcomm cpu inside Desire clocks 200mhz more...
EDIT: also consider the PowerVR 530 graphic chip inside the Defy, it's not bad for gaming. AFAIK you can run any game with no problems provided that you download the powerVR version of the game (i mean, forget those Tegra2 or Xperia Play dedicated games)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
How does one distinguish between powerVR and Tegra2 versions of games in the Android Market?
Izak80 said:
How does one distinguish between powerVR and Tegra2 versions of games in the Android Market?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Oh don't worry for that, the Android Market (at least the "desktop version") will tell you whether a game is compatible with your device or not. In the mobile version should be even easier since the game won't appear at all.
xdaid said:
Oh don't worry for that, the Android Market (at least the "desktop version") will tell you whether a game is compatible with your device or not. In the mobile version should be even easier since the game won't appear at all.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ok, then i dont have to think about it, good. Thanks for the info. By the way, bought a wonderful little game today called "They need to be fed", what a fun and addiciting game it turned out to be.