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So one of Microsoft's big features for WP7 over WM is that OS updates can be sent out directly by MS to all models, eliminating the previous delays from device manufacturers and operators. The great benefit here is not only for all users getting access to all new OS features, but a really important aspect is limiting fragmentation of the platform for developers. I.e. Developers don't need the huge hassle of trying to support all types of hardware and OS to get the highest number of users for their app. This is what killed Windows Mobile, and ultimately is going to kill Android if you read the story about Angry Birds.
So how about a vote? Do you think that Microsoft will hold up to the promise that they will release the OS updates to all WP7 hardware at the same time?
Will they? Who knows. But if they don't they will have effectively abandoned the smartphone market permanently because the number of people left who would believe a word they say about anything wouldn't be enough to sustain a small tech company. I can't imagine Microsoft is that stupid but they did abandon it once already.
markgamber said:
Will they? Who knows. But if they don't they will have effectively abandoned the smartphone market permanently because the number of people left who would believe a word they say about anything wouldn't be enough to sustain a small tech company. I can't imagine Microsoft is that stupid but they did abandon it once already.
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Wasn't once, Sidekick anyone?
I think that they will update all the devices at the same time and I think that all of the new WP7 devices have a good amount of sales and so they should update all of them.
I don't think you will see updates all at the same time, i think you will see them based upon carriers and headsets but "Around" the same time. I don't think MS would want to push an update all at once unless its just a core update and doesn't impact carrier requirements or device specific issues.
blahism said:
I don't think you will see updates all at the same time, i think you will see them based upon carriers and headsets but "Around" the same time. I don't think MS would want to push an update all at once unless its just a core update and doesn't impact carrier requirements or device specific issues.
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I think you raised 2 interesting points there. Say there is a device specific issue, does the manufacturer submit that to MS for inclusion in an update to that particular device? What if they don't bother? What if MS make a new feature in the OS that requires a new driver from the device manufacturer? If they don't bother then its deadlock, and in that case this situation is no better than with Windows Mobile of leaving all updates to the manufacturer. Personally I think MS are in big trouble here if they haven't thought this through completely...
indiekiduk said:
I think you raised 2 interesting points there. Say there is a device specific issue, does the manufacturer submit that to MS for inclusion in an update to that particular device? What if they don't bother? What if MS make a new feature in the OS that requires a new driver from the device manufacturer? If they don't bother then its deadlock, and in that case this situation is no better than with Windows Mobile of leaving all updates to the manufacturer. Personally I think MS are in big trouble here if they haven't thought this through completely...
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If an OEM wants to push a device-specific update, they submit it to Microsoft and Microsoft will push it out after approval (the carrier may need to approve as well). Microsoft, of course, could potentially fix this themselves if the OEM refuses to fix it but I can't imagine that happening.
Microsoft has developed a vast majority of the drivers. Again, I just can't see Microsoft making a new feature that...
1. Relies on a driver and/or...
2. The driver isn't written by MS
They've thought this through pretty well. Some more explanation of the timing and carrier approval can be found here.
http://windowsphonesecrets.com/2010...-and-carriers-ability-to-block-those-updates/
If you consider how HTC does it, they add their custom features in an app. HTC has wanted to incorporate Sense into their WP7 offerings. But MS has not allowed it. Instead they compensate by adding Sense-like features to the HTC Hub. I believe this is the extent of any customization among various handset makers.
RustyGrom said:
They've thought this through pretty well. Some more explanation of the timing and carrier approval can be found here.
http://windowsphonesecrets.com/2010...-and-carriers-ability-to-block-those-updates/
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So Paul Thurrott says that (to prevent fragmentation) if an operator/handset manufacturer blocks their devices from an OS update then they can't blog the next one and it's automatically sent out. That sounds absolutely mental!
indiekiduk said:
So Paul Thurrott says that (to prevent fragmentation) if an operator/handset manufacturer blocks their devices from an OS update then they can't blog the next one and it's automatically sent out. That sounds absolutely mental!
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I agree that it's definitely a bit strange. But let's just see how this works out in practice. In theory Android can get updates super fast and in theory the carriers can block iPhone updates. Microsoft is still controlling the process, not the OEMs or carriers. The carriers understandably don't want to run untested code on their networks. Microsoft is giving them the option to delay/block. If they abuse it, Microsoft could just give them the middle finger and release them directly. It sounds like the carriers are going to play ball. The ones that don't will certainly get a bad rap and could lose customers over it.
We certainly do not want the mess that is the Android update process, with Google, the Carriers and the OEM's all having a say in when updates go out!
adesonic said:
We certainly do not want the mess that is the Android update process, with Google, the Carriers and the OEM's all having a say in when updates go out!
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Ugh no, Google phones get the update first and fast. As of right now Google has only one phone.
Its all the other Android phones that have this problem with OEMs, and carriers.
WP7 will be just like the Nexus One. All WP7 devices will get updated regardless of carriers. If your carrier wont allow the OTA update then just connect to Zune.
I also think the updates will be regional.
Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk
adesonic said:
We certainly do not want the mess that is the Android update process, with Google, the Carriers and the OEM's all having a say in when updates go out!
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That's the kind of crap that killed WinMo for me. Three times with three different phones I ran into the problem of video "tearing". Three times I emailed Microsoft support, HTC support and AT&T support about the problem and three times they were all content to point fingers at each other. Microsoft says it was a problem with HTC's drivers. HTC says it was a problem with the carrier not approving whatever updates and AT&T says if you want to solve the problem buy this new phone. And I did that twice to find the latest and greatest had the same problem, no one actually did anything. What was worse was finding updates on HTC's site that I couldn't apply to my phone because they were tied to particular carriers and my carrier, of course, wasn't one of them. The worst kind of planned obsolescence. That was when I said the hell with WinMo and bought an iPhone and all that garbage went away. When it had a problem, I went to Apple. Period. Updates came from Apple. Period. And they've only recently stopped updating the original iPhone after how long? Apple cut out the carrier for a reason and has set the bar that Microsoft should at least have the decency to meet if not exceed if they expect to be taken seriously.
vetvito said:
Ugh no, Google phones get the update first and fast. As of right now Google has only one phone.
Its all the other Android phones that have this problem with OEMs, and carriers.
WP7 will be just like the Nexus One. All WP7 devices will get updated regardless of carriers. If your carrier wont allow the OTA update then just connect to Zune.
I also think the updates will be regional.
Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk
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I agree things were safer for users with the Nexus one, but they've stopped selling it now for whatever reason. I'd love to find out why they decided to do that because that model was a major advantage. All new Android users are going to hit this issue which is what killed WinMo as stated by markgamber.
Also you can't really say what will happen with WP7 because it remains to be seen what will actually happen when its update time. Actually it won't be until the 2nd update we'll find out if people with the old models are screwed over. It'll actually be less of a big deal if Microsoft take 1 year between OS updates because most users will want new hardware anyway, however it could still be a major disaster if manufacturers blame MS for pushing out an untested OS upgrade that breaks thousands of phones. I expect there will be some exemption like hardware of over 2 years old does not get upgrades from MS, that would get them off the hook slightly.
I agree that Apple is great for the consumer, if there is any problem Apple fix it, they control the whole experience, anything you buy on the app store will work on hardware up to 2 years old. However for developers its not such a great picture. The app store just breaks even, Apple aren't interested in app developers being successful, they only built the app store because jailbreaks were doing it anyway, previously they only planned for javascript web apps, and if anyone tries to do anything innovative outside the restrictions of the SDK their app gets banned and they get threatened their developer account will be cancelled. However there was a some money to be made by some lucky people, and everyone else made at least more than building windows mobile apps in the old days. Anyway Apple make all their money from the hardware they don't need to make money from some 3rd party dev making a good app. Google also don't care about developers, the market place is terrible and its widely known that devs with apps on both platforms get like 0.3% of their sales on Android. But as with Apple, Google don't care about the developers either. With Android, Google attract phone manufacturers by offering an OS for free, which they used to need to pay MS $30 per license or whatever. And by having tons of phones out there, Google make a ton of cash from the ads in the built in apps google search, and google maps. They have no need to support developers, and if the platform becomes fragmented they don't care because as long as they sell more phones they make more money.
It remains to be seen what the point of the WP7 marketplace is to MS. My friend has the #1 shooter app and sells 1 a day so MS will be running the store at a loss. And if they need to give WP7 away for free to compete with Android for traction there really is no hope.
You guys bring up some really great points. I am starting to think that the reason Apple stayed with At&t had something to do with updates.
To hopefully add on to this great discussion I think that the US carrier market is in for a real change soon. Every day I see prices coming down and carriers having more and more of the same features. Once carriers are handing out the exact same features it might not be that big of a deal to have MS release all updates. Other countries are way more competitive with their carrier choices and I think US will have to evolve because users demand it.
bowpay said:
You guys bring up some really great points. I am starting to think that the reason Apple stayed with At&t had something to do with updates.
To hopefully add on to this great discussion I think that the US carrier market is in for a real change soon. Every day I see prices coming down and carriers having more and more of the same features. Once carriers are handing out the exact same features it might not be that big of a deal to have MS release all updates. Other countries are way more competitive with their carrier choices and I think US will have to evolve because users demand it.
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Just a bit of a correction:
iPhone stayed with AT&T on the domestic market, it is deployed across various providers on the international market.
To be honest I'm very curious about the update process. It's not true that all WP7 devices have got the same features. At the moment I've got HTC Trophy on Vodafone and HTC HD7 on O2. The same system but different search providers in IE, different regional keyboards available, different system languages, different settings for adding email accounts etc.. So it seems like every phone has carrier specific rom and I believe carriers would like to keep it that way. It looks like current roms are miles away from one unified rom as we see on iPhone.
Regardless of how it is made available I have heard that an update including copy /paste will be ready end Jan...
robart76 said:
To be honest I'm very curious about the update process. It's not true that all WP7 devices have got the same features. At the moment I've got HTC Trophy on Vodafone and HTC HD7 on O2. The same system but different search providers in IE, different regional keyboards available, different system languages, different settings for adding email accounts etc.. So it seems like every phone has carrier specific rom and I believe carriers would like to keep it that way. It looks like current roms are miles away from one unified rom as we see on iPhone.
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That's a good point.
Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk
robart76 said:
To be honest I'm very curious about the update process. It's not true that all WP7 devices have got the same features. At the moment I've got HTC Trophy on Vodafone and HTC HD7 on O2. The same system but different search providers in IE, different regional keyboards available, different system languages, different settings for adding email accounts etc.. So it seems like every phone has carrier specific rom and I believe carriers would like to keep it that way. It looks like current roms are miles away from one unified rom as we see on iPhone.
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Click to collapse
The only thing that matters is that a given program runs on all WP7 phones equally. That's where Apple currently excels and why Android has been called "fragmented". What they look like and what programs are included with a given phone on a given carrier don't matter.
Not with all the live stuff (would be nice though) but when I flip something up it goes into trash or closes it (think it is nice interaction) also with only pages/programs open shows up in screen slides with this interaction. Could possibly make winmo perform a little better. Sorry for bad wording and such but pressed for time at work Hope someone takes interest in this .
A really good simple app idea for Windows Phone 7
Its funny how one always has a great app idea after the event (read; http://www.windowsphone7.com/ineedt...2526pmodex253D1x2526gridviewx253D0#pbbh21054p),
An app I thought that would be really cool is a supermarket price comparison. The 'story' is that you visit you local store with your shopping list on your phone; the phone checks off the items on the list when you scan their respective barcodes, also as you scan the barcode it brings up the price for the product and the price from the competitor supermarket chains. I think this app would really sell well, and people will buy it because they know they will make their money back in their first shop
What do you guys think?
i would definitely use it
+1 !
but the problem is: who will update the price and the product list?
I believe there already is an API available (for the web -UK supermarkets) which does this for you...all a coder/dev needs to do is build the app.
an API for worldwide would be perfect... i think google provide such api for US/europe?
otherwise, maybe somebody can find an agreement with online stores to provide prices and models ...
really the idea is interesting and someone should start coding it (personnaly i don't currently have enough time )
I remember hearing of the Iphone porting of apps a while back
I was just wandering is anyone actually doing this? I know there is an windows equivalent every now and then but sometimes the apple app works better. I know I am a 6'4 guy that 270, and I love the Lose it App (my fiance has) and I know about vita one (no were near the build in database). And other things that help communicate with others and such. I am not going to apple been there 2x and always perferred windows mobile for the last 6+ years just wanted to ask this. If someone took it up to port apps I am pretty sure there would be hundreds or thousands of people willing to donate/pay for your hard work. Just a thought.
Problem with porting certain apps, is it requires you to actually have a iPhone
If you got some links to apps you would like ported, with screenshots and so on, I'd love to check it out, as porting apps is a good challenge to get familiar with the development environment.
Thanks I meant to put this in the development and hacking section in general not just windows 7 , here is a link to one of them I thought about creating a bounty or reward system for people to request apps and pay developers here to port them? Here is the link for one http://www.loseit.com/
really nice app because the database is constantly updated with nutrition facts from most of places we eat. I will have more later when I repo my girls phone for a while.
I would totally use this. I have the Shopaid app and it is okay, but doesn't update the price and such
The thing is with applications like that, is it depends more on the data that's available. Duplicating the interface into a Metro styled hub for weight-loss and exercise could be done in a day or two, but getting the actual data setup is a completely other story.
Beyond that, you can be totally sure people will duplicate that type of app.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_A4TdEV3Sk
Looks like someones already getting the ball rolling.
Someone is already developing that app actually, just go to Youtube and type "windows phone price check app" and you'll see. I can't post the link because I'm new here! The app looks amazing so far.
My company, with decades of experience with Windows development, is looking to break into mobile development in a big way with the launch of WP7. We have a couple of original ideas we are working on, but we would also like to officially port a successful iPhone app or game for some additional credibility.
I've approached a couple of different iPhone app developers with this proposal:
>>Let us port your app at our expense and we split the proceeds 50/50.
>>You retain all ownership and have quality assurance approval before launch.
I have tried every phrasing I can think of to convince them I am legitimate and that I want to create an arrangement where I take on 100% of the risk, but we share equally in the reward.
So far, not even a reply.
Any ideas?
Regards,
Jason
ebook readers
I curently have an HD2 and will probable end up with a WP7 device at some point when they come out. However I'm a big ebook fan and at the moment i'm tempted to get an android phone so that I can use he Kindle app. I'm waiting to see what developers come up with for WP7.
Do you think there's a good chance of a kinde app or something like it being made for WP7?
Cheers
Steve
I think so. I think the amount of sales will be suprising, and that there will be more hardware with WP7 on it than critics give it credit for. There are alot of peopl ethat HAVE an iPhone that want out. My father just got the AT&T Galaxy S (Captivate) and loves it, diching his iPhone 3G.
I think they would be silly not to. I'd prefer a Nook app on WP7 myself, but something to start would be nice!
Brandon Watson said they were worknig with developers who already had WM apps - that means B&N for sure. MS also has an eboo reader but it's unclear if they are going to bundle it with the phone (not likely). Based on the ease of writing WP7 apps I'd suspect all of the large developers to write a WP7 app and they are permitted to have their ebook stores.
Let's hope that you guys are right and there is a strong enough uptake to make all the big players developer readers for WP7. competition is a good thing after all!
Cheers
Steve
I relay like your idea…
After all because I had nearly the same
But I would give it more features…
X Online Service for the markets where they can register the products with barcode and price
-„POI“ Database with geodata of the markets
-Markets can enter special offers
X Online „Community“ section
-Users can Post reviews and vote for products
-Users can vote for markets / stores
-Users can enter alternate products
X Private section for Users
-You can make your grocery list an search for alternate products
-You can enter an amount of saving and a distance you would go for
So the system could give you a shopping tour
Now to the Phone App
X The App can download your grocery
X You can make a Live price comparison with the barcode
-The app could give you a market / store, it would consider your amount of saving and a distance you would go for
X You can do a live vote for Products and Stores
X You can enter a grocery list
X You can search for alternate products
X The app would use the geodata and GPS
SHOP NAV!
I thought of an app years ago called shop nav.
You type in your shopping list and your phone guides you around the store in the correct route.If your in your local then you know where everything is.but how many times have you shopped in a different store one only to find everything is in a different place.You spend most of your time doubling back on your self and walking up the same flaming isle 3 times!.Supermakets are getting bigger and if an app like this was possible it would save everyone time and ease shop congestion.
With the advent of 'Marketplace'... WP7 looks pretty much non-hackable at this moment..
I mean I have seen people jailbreaking, but what to do after jailbreaking? There is no practical use for it, other that unlocking and using other cellular company chip.. it ends their.
As far as softwares are concerned, one has to get it from Marketplace and nowere else.
I think this will eventually close websites like Handago and other 3rd party Windows Mobile software retailing websites.. and many Windows mobile warez websites.. ppcware*org is already dead since last one year, when any new windows mobile 6.5 softwares or their upgrades stopped coming out..
I think most of these 3rd party companies are already making a shift to other platforms. Just look at Handango which is now owned by Pocket Gear sells software for the Android and Blackberry platforms.
People like me living in countries not supported by the Windows Phone 7 Marketplace will be forced to shift to other platforms like Android because we can still get software from these 3rd party sellers.
For us there is no point in making the shift from windows 6.5 to Windows Phone 7 because there is no way we will be able to buy software as Market place does not support our country.
Regards
If they close it's because they failed to adapt to new market conditions. It happens in business all the time, adapt and survive. You can't build a successful business on the assumption that everything will stay the same.
Handago is a good example. It won't die off with WinMo 6.5 because it's adapted and found itself a new market to trade from. The businesses that go under are just ones that failed to plan ahead or adapt.
These third party app markets are nothing but shams though... i would be highly surprised if any developer wants them to survive. They're notorious for screwing over people on both ends of the stick.
Purple11 said:
and many Windows mobile warez websites.. ppcware*org is already dead since last one year
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Err this is a good thing? A V. Good thing?
Purple11 said:
I mean I have seen people jailbreaking, but what to do after jailbreaking? There is no practical use for it, other that unlocking and using other cellular company chip.. it ends their.
As far as softwares are concerned, one has to get it from Marketplace and nowere else.
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You're confusing jailbreaking with carrier or service provider unlocking.
Jailbreaking allows installation of non-Marketplace approved programs (such as Chevron Ringtone Installer). A common term for installing programs through a process other than the approved one "sideloading".
Service provider unlocking allows the use of foreign SIMs in GSM phones (for example, using a Rogers Canada SIM in an AT&T handset).
On iPhone the two are often linked in that most jailbroken phones are also carrier unlocked; in fact, the carrier unlock usually requires a jailbreak, because the carrier lock component is embedded into the iOS. Thus, you can have jailbroken but not unlocked phones, and in some countries you can buy from Apple, unlocked, but not jailbroken phones.
On WP7 devices, carrier unlocking uses a mechanism similar to every other phone on the market. Basically, you insert a foreign SIM into a carrier locked phone, and the phone prompts you for a PIN. Enter the correct PIN and the phone is unlocked. Just like a Motorola RAZR. You or your unlocking guy sends a company that has an unlocking table your phone model, carrier and IMEI and they send back a PIN. I suspect that depending on the phone, they use a published table, algorithmically derive it, or brute force it on an emulator.
In WP7, there is a factory mechanism for jailbreaking phones and allowing sideloading of software. The program is a free download with the WP7 dev tools and called "Windows Phone Developer Registration". However, to use it, you need to pay Microsoft an annual $99 dev fee (AFAIK you can jailbreak any number of phones).
Once your WP7 is jailbroken, you can sideload apps, again, using a factory mechanism, from the WP7 Developer Tools, called, "Application Deployment". It allows installation of application packages (.XAP files), which is what gets sent to the Marketplace.
In response to the your question of why anyone would want to jailbreak or unlock a phone:
1. SP unlock phone to use foreign SIMs (this is hugely popular).
2. Jailbreak phone to install non-Marketplace approved apps. For example, the custom ringtone installer.
I suppose another reason will eventually be piracy -- I hope piracy doesn't become prevalent like with Installous on iPhone, but I suppose that's inevitable.
There are LOTS of reasons to install "homebrew" or non-Marketplace approved apps. MS has certain guidelines because they want their phone to work a certain way. However, you could conveivably sideload applications that did other wonderful things that would not be approved -- perhaps changing the behaviour of the lock screen, backgrounded tasks, or altering ringtones. Of course, a bad XAP that used code outside of what is documented and approved might also brick your phone or make it unstable.
Finally, sideloading allows companies to write custom software that they don't want to publish to the world at large. This is actually a very large market -- if you're a local courier company, for example, you could write a corporate app for WP7 that used GPS and geotagging that tracked where your drivers were and when packages were set up, and upload all of that to a server on a relatively very cheap device (vertical market devices cost thousands of dollars).
Remember, jailbreaking and carrier unlocking are totally legal (but, of course, piracy is not!).
The Chevron Ringtone Unlocker is not a jailbreak.
Jailbreaking on iOS is akin to Rooting on WebOS/Android.
There is no Jailbreak for WP7 at the moment.
The Chevron tool only allowed you to deploy code from Visual Studio, and the ringtone unlocker is not a jailbreak, lol.
Nothing like that exists for WP7, at the moment.
The first WP7 update will allow businesses to seed applications to handsets without going through the market, so that will not be a problem for them. It's coming in January. Microsoft is doing a good job keeping people out, at the moment. I applaud them.
N8ter said:
The first WP7 update will allow businesses to seed applications to handsets without going through the market, so that will not be a problem for them. It's coming in January.
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Where did you get this info? I watched a demo of the phone for business partners and they said there'd be an update in the middle of next year to include more policies and integration with Lync Server. I'd guess that's when software push for businesses is happening, too.
And even the January date of the first update is speculation. All Microsoft has said on the record is "early 2011." I think a lot of people here are getting their hopes up for something that's not going to deliver as much and as quickly as they want.
jeffgeno said:
I think a lot of people here are getting their hopes up for something that's not going to deliver as much and as quickly as they want.
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The first update will be instantly transmitted OTA to all handsets at 12:01am 1 January 2011, and will activate WP7's quantum entanglement device. Third party apps available at launch will allow instant teleportation, personal force fields, and phase-shifted camo. True multitasking comes in form of the ability to spawn identical clones of yourself, and of course, the WP7 phone that will be all linked using a new version of Live Mesh that's based on a subspace tachion field.
But they better not forget cut and paste.
jeffgeno said:
Where did you get this info? I watched a demo of the phone for business partners and they said there'd be an update in the middle of next year to include more policies and integration with Lync Server. I'd guess that's when software push for businesses is happening, too.
And even the January date of the first update is speculation. All Microsoft has said on the record is "early 2011." I think a lot of people here are getting their hopes up for something that's not going to deliver as much and as quickly as they want.
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The demo you watched has nothing to do with what I said, nor does that other statement...
I'm not getting my hopes up for anything. If you don't want to believe it, you're free to wait until the update and find out if it's true :>
jailbreaking your phone DOES allow you to load on apps from outside sources... thats the whole idea behind the jailbreak primarily. To use your phone on another network what you are talking about is unlocking it. Let's not confuse the two.
I agree though... other marketplaces tend to screw people over. The marketplace is meant to keep the rift raft out. Now does that mean that we shouldnt be allowed to load on apps from other sources? No, but if you want to buy something legit and know its a good product then Id stick with the marketplace. On my other windows phones I probably got 70 % of my stuff from the marketplace
as far as loading on stolen products.... from a place like ppcwarez well.. thats sort of talk isnt even condoned on here so I wouldnt gripe that we cant steal stuff and put it on our phone
The current jailbreak for our phones has actually been discontinued as they are in advanced talks with microsoft to actually open up the phones soon so we can do what we want with the devices. Thats the only reason they've halted their development. I don't think they'd do that if they didn't think microsoft wasnt serious about it.
I hate that we have to put out these fires. Chevron Unlocker is NOT the same as a "jailbreak" (I HATE that apple's terms are used here). WM HardSPL = iOS Jailbreak = Android rooting.
Hardspl wasnt a jailbreak. Wm6.5 really didnt need a jailbreak, tbh. Hardspl just let u flash radios indepemdent of the roms that typically include them.
The only time WM6.5 needed anything resembling a jailbreak was if your carrier did something to lock down the security of the phone (AT&T was notorious for blocking lots of third party WM apps from installing correctly, like they do on thier Android phones). And there was a tool to download that would unlock your phone for you in like 10 seconds or less...
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App
Ok guys now I understand the difference between 'jailbreaking' and 'unlocking' the phone.. thanks for the clarification.. back in WM6.5 days we never needed any 'jailbreak'.. their was only 'unlocking'...
But it seems now the new phones comes with two locks.. one is the carrier lock and than second is the phone lock...
All because of Iphone! Imagine a computer where I cant access C:/ Drive .. its insane!!
So, I've been looking around pretty hard recently and I have yet to see an answer on this that either applies to my phone or is not out of date.
My question is: Is a dev willing to attempt to replace android with Windows Mobile (6.1-6.5) or Windows Phone? Or is this not possible? ( Had seen previous answers stating we needed an unlocked bootloader for this to be an option...which we now have.)
Now some of you may be asking why the hell I'm wanting to replace the OS, and that comes down to the new privacy policy of Google's services and that there are no WM devices w/in the past two years that have a physical keyboard which use the 1700 MHz band for data.
Thanks so much for the help.
hobbiteer said:
So, I've been looking around pretty hard recently and I have yet to see an answer on this that either applies to my phone or is not out of date.
My question is: Is a dev willing to attempt to replace android with Windows Mobile (6.1-6.5) or Windows Phone? Or is this not possible? ( Had seen previous answers stating we needed an unlocked bootloader for this to be an option...which we now have.)
Now some of you may be asking why the hell I'm wanting to replace the OS, and that comes down to the new privacy policy of Google's services and that there are no WM devices w/in the past two years that have a physical keyboard which use the 1700 MHz band for data.
Thanks so much for the help.
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It is very hard to port a different OS. Possible, but very hard.
But as for the privacy policy, you understand that it basically makes Google have the SAME policy as Microsoft and Apple right? And you can opt out of many of the changes?
The media got that story and turned it into something it wasn't. Google can use your data to improve your experience in its other services. Just like Microsoft says it does.....only difference is they hide it in a wall of text, Google came out and told you.
Also, think that Windows Mobile/Windows Phone are closed-source OSes, while Android is Open Source. Even though, look how hard it is to port Ice Cream Sandwich to our device - an Android OS.
Porting another system with no drivers or access to source code would be next to impossible.
This has been asked a bunch and always answered with either no it can't work or why would you want to.
Don't think its possible
And its not that ics is super hard to port..its the fact that it hasn't been released for more than a couple devices. As soon as htc releases the official dhd ics things should go a lot smoother
Sent from my HTC Vision using xda premium
Nospin, I do know that the policy is basically the same for Google as it is for Microsoft or Apple. And i really do like that they came out and said it as opposed to the EULAs of the others. I am also aware I can opt out of Google's services by not signing in on my desktop, but not on Android. I am required to be logged in to use things on the device like the market. Even for free apps, I have to be signed in to download them. Then, most of them also only provide downloads via the market, so I can't go to their site and buy them or get them (or updates.)
I am well aware it is difficult to port a different OS to a device, but I also know it's not impossible (just next to it.) I also know the question had been asked multiple times. I found 4 different threads under 4 different devices. All of them had different answers. Either "we need an unlocked bootloader", "yes it can be done", or "not possible." Were the answers. With each of the threads being years old I figured asking was the easiest way to get an updated answer.
If open source is the issue, how about loading memo 5, or even a full on version of Linux (vnc solutions don't count.)
I appreciate the responses so far, but I'd also like to hear from a dev on the subject if possible.
HTC HD2 is multiplatform (android,WM 6.5, WP7, ubuntu, meego) but doesn't have keyboard (only bluetooth)
Oh god, the mention of WM 6.X on our device made me throw up in my mouth a little. So obsolete, laggy and unstable. I don't know why you would go anywhere near that garbage.
Porting WM or WP, not "impossible" per se. But so much would have to be built from scratch. No hardware drivers for WP to work on our device, so they would have to be written from scratch. It would be a huge effort, and the fact that WP is closed source, makes it all the more difficult. "Impossible", technically no. But hundreds, probably thousands of hours worth of work. Nobody is really interested in putting that much effort into such a project. And for the reason that you just don't like Google's privacy policy? Sorry, not going to happen.
Wondering if it's worthwhile before I invest time in creating a Mac OS X VM + Xcode to port my android apps to iOS.
lapucele said:
Wondering if it's worthwhile before I invest time in creating a Mac OS X VM + Xcode to port my android apps to iOS.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
just realised this may be the wrong subforum to post the above question. Could this thread be moved?
lapucele said:
just realised this may be the wrong subforum to post the above question. Could this thread be moved?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Actually I clicked on here thinking myself that this was for "application porting" as I came from the front page, and then it wasn't till I saw you replied to your own thread with the above that I realised? I think there is a bug in the forums, not you posting in the incorrect location?
Anyway to discuss your topic, I have recently downloaded all the necessary stuff to do as you are considering. One thing to be careful of is the fact that Apple from my understanding will give you their wrath if they find out.
Apple software is ONLY to be run on Apple hardware, If they find out (and they have their ways from what I have heard) you instantly banned for life. I guess nothing stopping you starting again, but remember your app is pulled and you kind of couldn't get away with releasing it under a different name account again later on without them knowing?
There's always the cydia market place which I hear is still fairly profitable...up until recently I wasn't even aware that is was a paid market place, I had always been of the impression that it was a hackers market for people who 1) mod their device tweak it like us android users 2) jailbroken (but stock and no alternative to iTunes) 3) People who pirate apps.
However i have learned that it has quite a following an even some developers release on both iTunes and Cydia.
Anyway just my thoughts. I am in contact with a developer that is into the whole cydia thing so if you have any questions you want answers for give me a holla
James
Jarmezrocks said:
Actually I clicked on here thinking myself that this was for "application porting" as I came from the front page, and then it wasn't till I saw you replied to your own thread with the above that I realised? I think there is a bug in the forums, not you posting in the incorrect location?
Anyway to discuss your topic, I have recently downloaded all the necessary stuff to do as you are considering. One thing to be careful of is the fact that Apple from my understanding will give you their wrath if they find out.
Apple software is ONLY to be run on Apple hardware, If they find out (and they have their ways from what I have heard) you instantly banned for life. I guess nothing stopping you starting again, but remember your app is pulled and you kind of couldn't get away with releasing it under a different name account again later on without them knowing?
There's always the cydia market place which I hear is still fairly profitable...up until recently I wasn't even aware that is was a paid market place, I had always been of the impression that it was a hackers market for people who 1) mod their device tweak it like us android users 2) jailbroken (but stock and no alternative to iTunes) 3) People who pirate apps.
However i have learned that it has quite a following an even some developers release on both iTunes and Cydia.
Anyway just my thoughts. I am in contact with a developer that is into the whole cydia thing so if you have any questions you want answers for give me a holla
James
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
wow thanks for the heads up! i've heard varying stories too. i totally didn't think of the 3rd party app stores.
lapucele said:
wow thanks for the heads up! i've heard varying stories too. i totally didn't think of the 3rd party app stores.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just thought I'd mention as I only heard yesterday, but the newest edition of the app store for Apple is called AppCake for Apple. Apparently Apple is now going about systematically shutting down every 3rd party non-apple owned store including the non so legitimate suppliers of of Apple after market hardware products. That means everyone with anything that connects to an apple product that isn't apple or made by apple is a target. Geeese they don't let up do they? Developers mention that Apple will never be able to shut them down :silly: that they can and will do what they like with their iDevices cause they own them.
Oh and other thing to look out for if you go to Apple/iTunes, is this company Lodsys who are world renowned for being patent trolls who are systematically targeting individual developers for breaches in copy right for, get this......'in app purchasing' they claim that they invented it and are now suing several developers from iTunes (them personally) for using the iTunes supplied SDK for in app purchasing. Apple is doing the right thing and trying to defend these developers but the World IP org and US patents office can't do a god damned thing about it until things hurry up and get pushed through a ballot of senators to have groups like them shut down. Until then they are working their best and fastest with trying to sue as many people as they can! Unfortunately for most its a loosing battle as they don't have the money or resources to fight these bastards so they end up paying up. In an new interview I heard one company claimed it was cheeper to settle for 100K out of court than what it was to commit to defending them selves even though this group targeting them was 100% wrong.
But not meaning to scare you...or anything just keeping you filled in. Me personally I would write them a letter saying 4 words on one line followed by 4 words on a second line "Go f*%# your self" "See you in court" and go seek one of my dad's barrister friends to do it no win no fee. Screw that. I would be flaunting that I have in app purchasing sayin come at me bro
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/04/app-developers-lodsys-back
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/05/hey-patent-trolls-pick-someone-your-own-size
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/...t-patent-trolls-and-not-going-take-it-anymore
Jarmezrocks said:
Actually I clicked on here thinking myself that this was for "application porting" as I came from the front page, and then it wasn't till I saw you replied to your own thread with the above that I realised? I think there is a bug in the forums, not you posting in the incorrect location?
Anyway to discuss your topic, I have recently downloaded all the necessary stuff to do as you are considering. One thing to be careful of is the fact that Apple from my understanding will give you their wrath if they find out.
Apple software is ONLY to be run on Apple hardware, If they find out (and they have their ways from what I have heard) you instantly banned for life. I guess nothing stopping you starting again, but remember your app is pulled and you kind of couldn't get away with releasing it under a different name account again later on without them knowing?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No you guys are right. This is for porting apps across platforms, but people seem to confuse it with ROM porting.
Q. I know pretty much zero about iOS, and generally have always been anti apple. Are you trying to say that using something like j2 on lets say a virtual box on windows, is somehow a detectable and bannable offense in apple land? It's late and i might be just be misreading, but would like to know.
Mostly because i picked up a job on an Android app, and have been talking a bit about putting the app out for iphones after I finish up the android version, but don't really know where to begin.
out of ideas said:
No you guys are right. This is for porting apps across platforms, but people seem to confuse it with ROM porting.
Q. I know pretty much zero about iOS, and generally have always been anti apple. Are you trying to say that using something like j2 on lets say a virtual box on windows, is somehow a detectable and bannable offense in apple land? It's late and i might be just be misreading, but would like to know.
Mostly because i picked up a job on an Android app, and have been talking a bit about putting the app out for iphones after I finish up the android version, but don't really know where to begin.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My Research and Understanding
Yes that is exactly what I am saying. To run Apple in a VM is in breach of their TOS and Usage policy. It also entitles them to seek prosecution also; so not just a ban from iTunes. Going by Apples past history I wouldn't put it past them? Although now with Tim Cook in charge of things I think Apple is going about things a bit more differently now? For better or worse (people had their opinions of Steve Jobs - personally I disliked him but did appreciate his success and achievements for what they stacked up to be, personal opinions aside it takes a great person to do such) Apple is starting to become a bit more valued in collaborations as this is what Tim Cook always wanted working for Apple that he was never able to have whilst Steve was the master of the helm. Tim Cook was more about getting the job done and sharing. Steve's ongoing vendetta litigations were not Tim Cooks choice and/or advice. He didn't want such things from what I have read? More recently his involvement in legal matters has been observed as retracted and no confronting; he has proceeded to do these actions as part of Steve Jobs dying wishes and nothing more.
As far as I can tell he wants to nothing more than to get things out of the way and over and done with so that he and his company can move on.
My thoughts on this as an observer in the mobile tech industry is that I think Apple has dropped the ball a bit, and it is probably far too little far too late. However with a company with that much money behind it? There's only speculations about what holds in the future of Apple? They are certainly not going away or going to fall in to ruins that's for certain.
What I mean is that, yes there has been a heap of legal stuff seen by Apple and most of it very negative, but my feeling is that this won't be the case here on into the future, so the likelihood of facing a court for breach of Terms of Use are likely to be very small. I am sure that editing a build.prop is considered a breach of Google's TOS for use of a device in their Playstore?
Suggestions
My suggestion is to give it a try I have had some issues setting up my VM but have got all the necessary resources including all the software. I have just become too busy and it is not high on the priority list at the moment. I wanted to try gain an understanding of how Apple detects it's visitors. I mean iTunes is cross platform Windows and Mac (There is no release for Ubuntu or Linux AFAIK? only Wine type hacks) I know when I visit the iTunes webpage I am automatically prompted to download a Windows installer package. So they must have some form of automatic detection? Being that the likes of Virtualbox uses a shared internet connection I would speculate that you would need to choose the correct adapter settings so that your VM is seen to be a running physical machine and not a able to be identified as a shared connection or virtualised connection?
I didn't get this far as my installation has many issues. I still have the VM though for future interest. Feel free to PM me if you give it a try and don't succeed and I am happy to share what things I discovered in my problem solving.
Understanding Limitations for Cross Platform Mobile Development
As for the porting to OS's I believe there are many offerings around now that provide developers with a cross platform arrangement. Essentially only the UI resources need to change and then that plugs into a framework structure for your application to run in. You compile the code individual applications that are specific to the platform but you ARE able to develop your main code independent of the platforms. Languages such as Flex or Rubi on rails are going to be your best bet from my research?
Things You Should Consider
1. Single code repository
2. Individual application frameworks - compilation of application runtime for independent OS type
3. Limitations are stipulated and governed by what is allow at the lowest possible denominator. i.e. You can only build code into your single code repository that can accessed by the functionality of both(or all) platforms. What I mean is that there is no use building a single code repository that uses a function that is limited on one platform and not the other, another example is restrictions dictated to you by the likes of such companies like Apple. They have a strict guidelines and what is potentially available to you may not be in its context. Just because certain functionality is available to you in the Apple platform and you have even seen it in use on Apple devices does not necessarily mean that you can build and release it. In it's context Apple may not like what you are doing with your app and not approve it.
Your single point of code and it entirety has just shrunk in functionality to both devices now. So be careful and Anticipate what you might think the outcome is for your Application facing such scrutinisation and what it could possibly mean for your project as a whole?
On this note I have heard of developers making scripts and add-ons for their said central repository that allows them to restrict things ats compile time. For instance having greyed out selections in menus and a toast like notification to users like "Sorry this functionality is only available to Android users" and things like that.
Hope this helps contribute towards people considering on such ventures. Do your research. Find out what types of apps have been rejected from being published and find the reasons for why?
lapucele said:
Wondering if it's worthwhile before I invest time in creating a Mac OS X VM + Xcode to port my android apps to iOS.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I will check it in next week