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So one of Microsoft's big features for WP7 over WM is that OS updates can be sent out directly by MS to all models, eliminating the previous delays from device manufacturers and operators. The great benefit here is not only for all users getting access to all new OS features, but a really important aspect is limiting fragmentation of the platform for developers. I.e. Developers don't need the huge hassle of trying to support all types of hardware and OS to get the highest number of users for their app. This is what killed Windows Mobile, and ultimately is going to kill Android if you read the story about Angry Birds.
So how about a vote? Do you think that Microsoft will hold up to the promise that they will release the OS updates to all WP7 hardware at the same time?
Will they? Who knows. But if they don't they will have effectively abandoned the smartphone market permanently because the number of people left who would believe a word they say about anything wouldn't be enough to sustain a small tech company. I can't imagine Microsoft is that stupid but they did abandon it once already.
markgamber said:
Will they? Who knows. But if they don't they will have effectively abandoned the smartphone market permanently because the number of people left who would believe a word they say about anything wouldn't be enough to sustain a small tech company. I can't imagine Microsoft is that stupid but they did abandon it once already.
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Wasn't once, Sidekick anyone?
I think that they will update all the devices at the same time and I think that all of the new WP7 devices have a good amount of sales and so they should update all of them.
I don't think you will see updates all at the same time, i think you will see them based upon carriers and headsets but "Around" the same time. I don't think MS would want to push an update all at once unless its just a core update and doesn't impact carrier requirements or device specific issues.
blahism said:
I don't think you will see updates all at the same time, i think you will see them based upon carriers and headsets but "Around" the same time. I don't think MS would want to push an update all at once unless its just a core update and doesn't impact carrier requirements or device specific issues.
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I think you raised 2 interesting points there. Say there is a device specific issue, does the manufacturer submit that to MS for inclusion in an update to that particular device? What if they don't bother? What if MS make a new feature in the OS that requires a new driver from the device manufacturer? If they don't bother then its deadlock, and in that case this situation is no better than with Windows Mobile of leaving all updates to the manufacturer. Personally I think MS are in big trouble here if they haven't thought this through completely...
indiekiduk said:
I think you raised 2 interesting points there. Say there is a device specific issue, does the manufacturer submit that to MS for inclusion in an update to that particular device? What if they don't bother? What if MS make a new feature in the OS that requires a new driver from the device manufacturer? If they don't bother then its deadlock, and in that case this situation is no better than with Windows Mobile of leaving all updates to the manufacturer. Personally I think MS are in big trouble here if they haven't thought this through completely...
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If an OEM wants to push a device-specific update, they submit it to Microsoft and Microsoft will push it out after approval (the carrier may need to approve as well). Microsoft, of course, could potentially fix this themselves if the OEM refuses to fix it but I can't imagine that happening.
Microsoft has developed a vast majority of the drivers. Again, I just can't see Microsoft making a new feature that...
1. Relies on a driver and/or...
2. The driver isn't written by MS
They've thought this through pretty well. Some more explanation of the timing and carrier approval can be found here.
http://windowsphonesecrets.com/2010...-and-carriers-ability-to-block-those-updates/
If you consider how HTC does it, they add their custom features in an app. HTC has wanted to incorporate Sense into their WP7 offerings. But MS has not allowed it. Instead they compensate by adding Sense-like features to the HTC Hub. I believe this is the extent of any customization among various handset makers.
RustyGrom said:
They've thought this through pretty well. Some more explanation of the timing and carrier approval can be found here.
http://windowsphonesecrets.com/2010...-and-carriers-ability-to-block-those-updates/
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So Paul Thurrott says that (to prevent fragmentation) if an operator/handset manufacturer blocks their devices from an OS update then they can't blog the next one and it's automatically sent out. That sounds absolutely mental!
indiekiduk said:
So Paul Thurrott says that (to prevent fragmentation) if an operator/handset manufacturer blocks their devices from an OS update then they can't blog the next one and it's automatically sent out. That sounds absolutely mental!
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I agree that it's definitely a bit strange. But let's just see how this works out in practice. In theory Android can get updates super fast and in theory the carriers can block iPhone updates. Microsoft is still controlling the process, not the OEMs or carriers. The carriers understandably don't want to run untested code on their networks. Microsoft is giving them the option to delay/block. If they abuse it, Microsoft could just give them the middle finger and release them directly. It sounds like the carriers are going to play ball. The ones that don't will certainly get a bad rap and could lose customers over it.
We certainly do not want the mess that is the Android update process, with Google, the Carriers and the OEM's all having a say in when updates go out!
adesonic said:
We certainly do not want the mess that is the Android update process, with Google, the Carriers and the OEM's all having a say in when updates go out!
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Ugh no, Google phones get the update first and fast. As of right now Google has only one phone.
Its all the other Android phones that have this problem with OEMs, and carriers.
WP7 will be just like the Nexus One. All WP7 devices will get updated regardless of carriers. If your carrier wont allow the OTA update then just connect to Zune.
I also think the updates will be regional.
Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk
adesonic said:
We certainly do not want the mess that is the Android update process, with Google, the Carriers and the OEM's all having a say in when updates go out!
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That's the kind of crap that killed WinMo for me. Three times with three different phones I ran into the problem of video "tearing". Three times I emailed Microsoft support, HTC support and AT&T support about the problem and three times they were all content to point fingers at each other. Microsoft says it was a problem with HTC's drivers. HTC says it was a problem with the carrier not approving whatever updates and AT&T says if you want to solve the problem buy this new phone. And I did that twice to find the latest and greatest had the same problem, no one actually did anything. What was worse was finding updates on HTC's site that I couldn't apply to my phone because they were tied to particular carriers and my carrier, of course, wasn't one of them. The worst kind of planned obsolescence. That was when I said the hell with WinMo and bought an iPhone and all that garbage went away. When it had a problem, I went to Apple. Period. Updates came from Apple. Period. And they've only recently stopped updating the original iPhone after how long? Apple cut out the carrier for a reason and has set the bar that Microsoft should at least have the decency to meet if not exceed if they expect to be taken seriously.
vetvito said:
Ugh no, Google phones get the update first and fast. As of right now Google has only one phone.
Its all the other Android phones that have this problem with OEMs, and carriers.
WP7 will be just like the Nexus One. All WP7 devices will get updated regardless of carriers. If your carrier wont allow the OTA update then just connect to Zune.
I also think the updates will be regional.
Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk
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I agree things were safer for users with the Nexus one, but they've stopped selling it now for whatever reason. I'd love to find out why they decided to do that because that model was a major advantage. All new Android users are going to hit this issue which is what killed WinMo as stated by markgamber.
Also you can't really say what will happen with WP7 because it remains to be seen what will actually happen when its update time. Actually it won't be until the 2nd update we'll find out if people with the old models are screwed over. It'll actually be less of a big deal if Microsoft take 1 year between OS updates because most users will want new hardware anyway, however it could still be a major disaster if manufacturers blame MS for pushing out an untested OS upgrade that breaks thousands of phones. I expect there will be some exemption like hardware of over 2 years old does not get upgrades from MS, that would get them off the hook slightly.
I agree that Apple is great for the consumer, if there is any problem Apple fix it, they control the whole experience, anything you buy on the app store will work on hardware up to 2 years old. However for developers its not such a great picture. The app store just breaks even, Apple aren't interested in app developers being successful, they only built the app store because jailbreaks were doing it anyway, previously they only planned for javascript web apps, and if anyone tries to do anything innovative outside the restrictions of the SDK their app gets banned and they get threatened their developer account will be cancelled. However there was a some money to be made by some lucky people, and everyone else made at least more than building windows mobile apps in the old days. Anyway Apple make all their money from the hardware they don't need to make money from some 3rd party dev making a good app. Google also don't care about developers, the market place is terrible and its widely known that devs with apps on both platforms get like 0.3% of their sales on Android. But as with Apple, Google don't care about the developers either. With Android, Google attract phone manufacturers by offering an OS for free, which they used to need to pay MS $30 per license or whatever. And by having tons of phones out there, Google make a ton of cash from the ads in the built in apps google search, and google maps. They have no need to support developers, and if the platform becomes fragmented they don't care because as long as they sell more phones they make more money.
It remains to be seen what the point of the WP7 marketplace is to MS. My friend has the #1 shooter app and sells 1 a day so MS will be running the store at a loss. And if they need to give WP7 away for free to compete with Android for traction there really is no hope.
You guys bring up some really great points. I am starting to think that the reason Apple stayed with At&t had something to do with updates.
To hopefully add on to this great discussion I think that the US carrier market is in for a real change soon. Every day I see prices coming down and carriers having more and more of the same features. Once carriers are handing out the exact same features it might not be that big of a deal to have MS release all updates. Other countries are way more competitive with their carrier choices and I think US will have to evolve because users demand it.
bowpay said:
You guys bring up some really great points. I am starting to think that the reason Apple stayed with At&t had something to do with updates.
To hopefully add on to this great discussion I think that the US carrier market is in for a real change soon. Every day I see prices coming down and carriers having more and more of the same features. Once carriers are handing out the exact same features it might not be that big of a deal to have MS release all updates. Other countries are way more competitive with their carrier choices and I think US will have to evolve because users demand it.
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Just a bit of a correction:
iPhone stayed with AT&T on the domestic market, it is deployed across various providers on the international market.
To be honest I'm very curious about the update process. It's not true that all WP7 devices have got the same features. At the moment I've got HTC Trophy on Vodafone and HTC HD7 on O2. The same system but different search providers in IE, different regional keyboards available, different system languages, different settings for adding email accounts etc.. So it seems like every phone has carrier specific rom and I believe carriers would like to keep it that way. It looks like current roms are miles away from one unified rom as we see on iPhone.
Regardless of how it is made available I have heard that an update including copy /paste will be ready end Jan...
robart76 said:
To be honest I'm very curious about the update process. It's not true that all WP7 devices have got the same features. At the moment I've got HTC Trophy on Vodafone and HTC HD7 on O2. The same system but different search providers in IE, different regional keyboards available, different system languages, different settings for adding email accounts etc.. So it seems like every phone has carrier specific rom and I believe carriers would like to keep it that way. It looks like current roms are miles away from one unified rom as we see on iPhone.
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That's a good point.
Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk
robart76 said:
To be honest I'm very curious about the update process. It's not true that all WP7 devices have got the same features. At the moment I've got HTC Trophy on Vodafone and HTC HD7 on O2. The same system but different search providers in IE, different regional keyboards available, different system languages, different settings for adding email accounts etc.. So it seems like every phone has carrier specific rom and I believe carriers would like to keep it that way. It looks like current roms are miles away from one unified rom as we see on iPhone.
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Click to collapse
The only thing that matters is that a given program runs on all WP7 phones equally. That's where Apple currently excels and why Android has been called "fragmented". What they look like and what programs are included with a given phone on a given carrier don't matter.
With the advent of 'Marketplace'... WP7 looks pretty much non-hackable at this moment..
I mean I have seen people jailbreaking, but what to do after jailbreaking? There is no practical use for it, other that unlocking and using other cellular company chip.. it ends their.
As far as softwares are concerned, one has to get it from Marketplace and nowere else.
I think this will eventually close websites like Handago and other 3rd party Windows Mobile software retailing websites.. and many Windows mobile warez websites.. ppcware*org is already dead since last one year, when any new windows mobile 6.5 softwares or their upgrades stopped coming out..
I think most of these 3rd party companies are already making a shift to other platforms. Just look at Handango which is now owned by Pocket Gear sells software for the Android and Blackberry platforms.
People like me living in countries not supported by the Windows Phone 7 Marketplace will be forced to shift to other platforms like Android because we can still get software from these 3rd party sellers.
For us there is no point in making the shift from windows 6.5 to Windows Phone 7 because there is no way we will be able to buy software as Market place does not support our country.
Regards
If they close it's because they failed to adapt to new market conditions. It happens in business all the time, adapt and survive. You can't build a successful business on the assumption that everything will stay the same.
Handago is a good example. It won't die off with WinMo 6.5 because it's adapted and found itself a new market to trade from. The businesses that go under are just ones that failed to plan ahead or adapt.
These third party app markets are nothing but shams though... i would be highly surprised if any developer wants them to survive. They're notorious for screwing over people on both ends of the stick.
Purple11 said:
and many Windows mobile warez websites.. ppcware*org is already dead since last one year
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Err this is a good thing? A V. Good thing?
Purple11 said:
I mean I have seen people jailbreaking, but what to do after jailbreaking? There is no practical use for it, other that unlocking and using other cellular company chip.. it ends their.
As far as softwares are concerned, one has to get it from Marketplace and nowere else.
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You're confusing jailbreaking with carrier or service provider unlocking.
Jailbreaking allows installation of non-Marketplace approved programs (such as Chevron Ringtone Installer). A common term for installing programs through a process other than the approved one "sideloading".
Service provider unlocking allows the use of foreign SIMs in GSM phones (for example, using a Rogers Canada SIM in an AT&T handset).
On iPhone the two are often linked in that most jailbroken phones are also carrier unlocked; in fact, the carrier unlock usually requires a jailbreak, because the carrier lock component is embedded into the iOS. Thus, you can have jailbroken but not unlocked phones, and in some countries you can buy from Apple, unlocked, but not jailbroken phones.
On WP7 devices, carrier unlocking uses a mechanism similar to every other phone on the market. Basically, you insert a foreign SIM into a carrier locked phone, and the phone prompts you for a PIN. Enter the correct PIN and the phone is unlocked. Just like a Motorola RAZR. You or your unlocking guy sends a company that has an unlocking table your phone model, carrier and IMEI and they send back a PIN. I suspect that depending on the phone, they use a published table, algorithmically derive it, or brute force it on an emulator.
In WP7, there is a factory mechanism for jailbreaking phones and allowing sideloading of software. The program is a free download with the WP7 dev tools and called "Windows Phone Developer Registration". However, to use it, you need to pay Microsoft an annual $99 dev fee (AFAIK you can jailbreak any number of phones).
Once your WP7 is jailbroken, you can sideload apps, again, using a factory mechanism, from the WP7 Developer Tools, called, "Application Deployment". It allows installation of application packages (.XAP files), which is what gets sent to the Marketplace.
In response to the your question of why anyone would want to jailbreak or unlock a phone:
1. SP unlock phone to use foreign SIMs (this is hugely popular).
2. Jailbreak phone to install non-Marketplace approved apps. For example, the custom ringtone installer.
I suppose another reason will eventually be piracy -- I hope piracy doesn't become prevalent like with Installous on iPhone, but I suppose that's inevitable.
There are LOTS of reasons to install "homebrew" or non-Marketplace approved apps. MS has certain guidelines because they want their phone to work a certain way. However, you could conveivably sideload applications that did other wonderful things that would not be approved -- perhaps changing the behaviour of the lock screen, backgrounded tasks, or altering ringtones. Of course, a bad XAP that used code outside of what is documented and approved might also brick your phone or make it unstable.
Finally, sideloading allows companies to write custom software that they don't want to publish to the world at large. This is actually a very large market -- if you're a local courier company, for example, you could write a corporate app for WP7 that used GPS and geotagging that tracked where your drivers were and when packages were set up, and upload all of that to a server on a relatively very cheap device (vertical market devices cost thousands of dollars).
Remember, jailbreaking and carrier unlocking are totally legal (but, of course, piracy is not!).
The Chevron Ringtone Unlocker is not a jailbreak.
Jailbreaking on iOS is akin to Rooting on WebOS/Android.
There is no Jailbreak for WP7 at the moment.
The Chevron tool only allowed you to deploy code from Visual Studio, and the ringtone unlocker is not a jailbreak, lol.
Nothing like that exists for WP7, at the moment.
The first WP7 update will allow businesses to seed applications to handsets without going through the market, so that will not be a problem for them. It's coming in January. Microsoft is doing a good job keeping people out, at the moment. I applaud them.
N8ter said:
The first WP7 update will allow businesses to seed applications to handsets without going through the market, so that will not be a problem for them. It's coming in January.
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Where did you get this info? I watched a demo of the phone for business partners and they said there'd be an update in the middle of next year to include more policies and integration with Lync Server. I'd guess that's when software push for businesses is happening, too.
And even the January date of the first update is speculation. All Microsoft has said on the record is "early 2011." I think a lot of people here are getting their hopes up for something that's not going to deliver as much and as quickly as they want.
jeffgeno said:
I think a lot of people here are getting their hopes up for something that's not going to deliver as much and as quickly as they want.
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The first update will be instantly transmitted OTA to all handsets at 12:01am 1 January 2011, and will activate WP7's quantum entanglement device. Third party apps available at launch will allow instant teleportation, personal force fields, and phase-shifted camo. True multitasking comes in form of the ability to spawn identical clones of yourself, and of course, the WP7 phone that will be all linked using a new version of Live Mesh that's based on a subspace tachion field.
But they better not forget cut and paste.
jeffgeno said:
Where did you get this info? I watched a demo of the phone for business partners and they said there'd be an update in the middle of next year to include more policies and integration with Lync Server. I'd guess that's when software push for businesses is happening, too.
And even the January date of the first update is speculation. All Microsoft has said on the record is "early 2011." I think a lot of people here are getting their hopes up for something that's not going to deliver as much and as quickly as they want.
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The demo you watched has nothing to do with what I said, nor does that other statement...
I'm not getting my hopes up for anything. If you don't want to believe it, you're free to wait until the update and find out if it's true :>
jailbreaking your phone DOES allow you to load on apps from outside sources... thats the whole idea behind the jailbreak primarily. To use your phone on another network what you are talking about is unlocking it. Let's not confuse the two.
I agree though... other marketplaces tend to screw people over. The marketplace is meant to keep the rift raft out. Now does that mean that we shouldnt be allowed to load on apps from other sources? No, but if you want to buy something legit and know its a good product then Id stick with the marketplace. On my other windows phones I probably got 70 % of my stuff from the marketplace
as far as loading on stolen products.... from a place like ppcwarez well.. thats sort of talk isnt even condoned on here so I wouldnt gripe that we cant steal stuff and put it on our phone
The current jailbreak for our phones has actually been discontinued as they are in advanced talks with microsoft to actually open up the phones soon so we can do what we want with the devices. Thats the only reason they've halted their development. I don't think they'd do that if they didn't think microsoft wasnt serious about it.
I hate that we have to put out these fires. Chevron Unlocker is NOT the same as a "jailbreak" (I HATE that apple's terms are used here). WM HardSPL = iOS Jailbreak = Android rooting.
Hardspl wasnt a jailbreak. Wm6.5 really didnt need a jailbreak, tbh. Hardspl just let u flash radios indepemdent of the roms that typically include them.
The only time WM6.5 needed anything resembling a jailbreak was if your carrier did something to lock down the security of the phone (AT&T was notorious for blocking lots of third party WM apps from installing correctly, like they do on thier Android phones). And there was a tool to download that would unlock your phone for you in like 10 seconds or less...
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App
Ok guys now I understand the difference between 'jailbreaking' and 'unlocking' the phone.. thanks for the clarification.. back in WM6.5 days we never needed any 'jailbreak'.. their was only 'unlocking'...
But it seems now the new phones comes with two locks.. one is the carrier lock and than second is the phone lock...
All because of Iphone! Imagine a computer where I cant access C:/ Drive .. its insane!!
http://windowsteamblog.com/windows_...1/03/10/phone-updates-process-and-timing.aspx
At least somebody has been hired to start saying something
There’s one more thing I want to clear up. I’ve seen a lot of speculation on blogs and forums lately about whether carriers can “block” an update. We work closely with carriers to test and schedule updates. They may ask us for a specific date to start an update. They may ask for updates to be bundled together. But you should ultimately receive all the updates we send out.
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Damn you Carriers!
This short pause should in no way impact the timing of future updates, including the one announced recently at Mobile World Congress featuring multitasking, a Twitter feature, and a new HTML 5-friendly version of Internet Explorer Mobile.
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I sure hope so...
This is just what I expected, But I don't think it can penetrate the people's stupidity. Hopefully this can SHUT some of the people UP.
At least someone at Microsoft said something about the updates, even though it doesn't say a whole lot.
Lets hope they become a bit more vocal about things, instead of relying on rumors to become news.
His post was full of words, but didn't really tell us anything at all. I think he's probably a politician at heart.
1. they test updates at ms
2. carriers also test the updates, some carriers take longer than others
3. carriers can request a certain date updates will be allowed. e.g ATT can send an update a week earlier than Verizon (you will get your update but carrier decides when)
4. updates can sometimes include firmware from specific phone manufactures
5. updates are targetted to specific phones. just because LG phones got an update does not mean HTC phones will get an update. see point (2)
6. the snafu about the last update made them pause to make sure this update goes well.
7. The next update is copy and paste, improved market search and other improvements
what do you mean he didn't say anything?
Wow, I'll be honest, I'm both speechless, and pretty much satisfied.
This is exactly what they should have done. Wow. I'm seriously blown away that Microsoft actually did this. Very impressive.
Good enough for me.
i'm still not satisfied with these explanations. these excuses are to buy time and make microsoft look good. microsoft test update in lab > manufacture and chipmaker test their firmware > carrier test it on their network > users get update. they went thru at least 3 phases of testing and tell me none knows of the issue with samsung wp7? they were way behind schedule and have to rush the update so it wasn't properly test. NoGo was supposed to be out january. still NoShow.
akachay said:
i'm still not satisfied with these explanations. these excuses are to buy time and make microsoft look good. microsoft test update in lab > manufacture and chipmaker test their firmware > carrier test it on their network > users get update. they went thru at least 3 phases of testing and tell me none knows of the issue with samsung wp7? they were way behind schedule and have to rush the update so it wasn't properly test. NoGo was supposed to be out january. still NoShow.
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perhaps, but given your logic shouldn't the manufacturer (that being samsung) had picked it up when they were given the update and told MS about it before it hit a whole lot of samsung users? MS don't create the phones themselves (unlike Apple, which everyone seems to be comparing MS' update system to), so therefore the complexity of the updates in general are increased to a great magnitude with the additional layers that they need to help satisfy.
akachay said:
microsoft test(s) update in lab > manufacture(rs) and chipmaker(s) test their firmware > carrier(s) test it on their network(s) > users get update
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There's a step missing for a good test - between network testing and end users, a quick release to power user early adopters needs to happen.
These are people who ideally have the technical proficiency to help troubleshoot any issues encountered (in other words, they know how to file a bug report, and also how to follow troubleshooting instructions from MS).
Whiny *****es would of course be excluded.
MS used to have a system like this for their MSN software products (such as MSN messenger). I thought it worked really well as a participant, but then they ditched the program - IMHO they invited too many whiny non-technical people and just got sick of placating them.
I really don't think this addresses the issue. Tell me MS didn't know how this would work from the beginning?? If they did know, why did they advertise the system the way they did? They made frequent and aggressive updating as a main feature of WP7. Yet that "aggressive" updating is more like super timid updating.
Either MS didn't know what it was getting into, or they knew and are trying to blow smoke up our rears.
or they knew and are trying to blow smoke up our rears.
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*poots left over smoke out of his arse.
MartyLK said:
Either MS didn't know what it was getting into, or they knew and are trying to blow smoke up our rears.
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I would bet money it's the former.
They probably had meetings, layed it all out on spreadsheets, powerpoint presentations, etc. Had engineers give reports. Marketing specialists chime in on what's needed to win. And they thought it would go smooth as butter.
Ok.. time to give a fack with this guy..
So, was there anything we didn't already know?
The fact that MS had to push a pre update update is amusing, & the update was for every phone not just Samsung. Obviously MS never tested the update process before the launch of WP7. The Samsung issues show that MS & its OEM partners don't communicate well with each other. A good example of this is SD card support, if MS doesn't want it why is it there & how did Samsung get away with putting it in? Is MS not in charge of WP7 & the user experience, which a buggy SD card will impact?
Now, that said, I think it's worse than I thought.
So they need to adjust WP7 OS to every device out there, and with approval from carrier?
So, that means.. that this is almost exactly like Android. Or at least seems like Android. They are going to release tons of phones, and then, forget our humble phones.
Really, do you guys think MS is going to worry with an outdated smartphone? That don't even sell in stores anymore?
Crap ;/
After reading some of the comments posted there, it is clear that folks do not understand that the difference between Apple updates and Microsoft updates is that Apple controls the entire chain from nuts and bolts to software. They are updating ONE piece of hardware.
Microsoft is updating MANY DIFFERENT hardware types from many different manufacturers. Thus, 'issues' will occur.
With this PR blog post having 100+ replies with more than 90% of them being not positive, and Paul Thurrot's "Still No Update" post (which I'm assuming is what pushed MS to respond) having 150+ replies, maybe they'll finally start to "get it".
But I doubt it...
pbratton said:
After reading some of the comments posted there, it is clear that folks do not understand that the difference between Apple updates and Microsoft updates is that Apple controls the entire chain from nuts and bolts to software. They are updating ONE piece of hardware.
Microsoft is updating MANY DIFFERENT hardware types from many different manufacturers. Thus, 'issues' will occur.
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It seems you may not understand why the comparisons are valid. "Chassis 1" was suppose to be MS's answer to Apple so that they, like Apple, could update all phones at once.
Anything extra the OEMs add should be on them (ie. LG with DNLA) and MS should ONLY be responsible for updating the core OS. Acer, Asus, HP and Lenovo all update their own drivers while MS updates Windows. It should be the same exact process with WP7.
BTW, Apple is updating THREE pieces of hardware and many revisions of each. MS is updating ONE uniform OS AND they've been in the mobile OS business since 2003. They should have known how to run things by now.
pbratton said:
Microsoft is updating MANY DIFFERENT hardware types from many different manufacturers. Thus, 'issues' will occur.
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Also, it's not like MS has no experience here. They've rolled out updates to different hardware types before as part of the Zune updates that have happened occasionally (I think about twice a year, just like Xbox - autumn/spring) since launch.
So yeah, they have carriers in the mix now. That's really the only complexity added over the Zune updates that have been largely trouble-free.
Seems Microsoft is moving full steam ahead we have RTM!!!http://wmpoweruser.com/windows-phone-7-mango-released-to-manufacturers-in-carrier-testing/
rruffman said:
Seems Microsoft is moving full steam ahead we have RTM!!!http://wmpoweruser.com/windows-phone-7-mango-released-to-manufacturers-in-carrier-testing/
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a subject already exist http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1170721&page=2
but great news for us
Well yeah at the end of August we will see the first new phones, but Microsoft always said that consumers will get Mango in the fall.
So it's nice to hear they have RTM'd, but September is already fall and with carrier testing and OEM testing I doubt will get it earlier.
slimshady322 said:
Well yeah at the end of August we will see the first new phones, but Microsoft always said that consumers will get Mango in the fall.
So it's nice to hear they have RTM'd, but September is already fall and with carrier testing and OEM testing I doubt will get it earlier.
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we can hope that got it earlier
http://www.wpcentral.com/ATT-dell-venue-pro-not-shipping-till-8-30-getting-mango-speculation
"fall" is only two months away, as of tomorrow. Just to keep things in perspective.
It seems reasonable to expect the testing and certification by phone manufacturers and carriers to take at least two months, which would be consistent with all of the timelines that have been "leaked" over the past few months. Many rumors indicated that Mango would RTM in July (which it has), and that new Mango-equipped hardware would begin to hit retailers by late August/early September (which also appears to be accurate - remember, no one ever said they would be available worldwide at that time).
Add in another month to complete manufacturer/carrier testing for existing devices, and deal with the logistical issues around preparing for the distribution, and people on reasonable carriers could easily start seeing the update on their phones in early October. People on AT&T will probably see it by June of next year.
Already reported by Microsoft themselves that Windows Phone 7 Mango has not RTM'd yet. Which is good IMO, because I'd rather them work on it as much as possible.
prjkthack said:
Already reported by Microsoft themselves that Windows Phone 7 Mango has not RTM'd yet. Which is good IMO, because I'd rather them work on it as much as possible.
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it is now
http://windowsteamblog.com/windows_...ws-phone-mango-released-to-manufacturing.aspx
I'm going to hope (probably in vane) that the RTM is leaked onto the internets somehow. I've had minimal dramas with the mango beta, so I'd like to get onboard with the RTM ASAP.
Demaar said:
I'm going to hope (probably in vane) that the RTM is leaked onto the internets somehow. I've had minimal dramas with the mango beta, so I'd like to get onboard with the RTM ASAP.
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how will hoping you know about the direction of wind help mango leak?!
i will hope in vain as well, but maybe we'll get lucky and it will leak out (or even be released in short order)
wasn't that new toshiba phone msft is showing today/tomorrow supposed to be running mango?
prjkthack said:
Already reported by Microsoft themselves that Windows Phone 7 Mango has not RTM'd yet. Which is good IMO, because I'd rather them work on it as much as possible.
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Well, it looks like you got more time. Only 4 days worth, but still...
Seriously, though, It seems obvious now that the code was already frozen when the original report "leaked", but that the hand-off to handset makers and operators was not complete. Now it is.
So, we are still on track (barring ridiculous manufacturer/carrier delays) to see people actually receive the update by late September/early October. And, if Nokia does have hardware ready to go (which seems evident), we may see Mango-equipped new phone models very quickly.
kinda news ?
i was expecting more today, like a NEW mango finalized device displayed somewhere..
is this only a rtm announcement ?
anyone know if there will be a 2 stage release to end users like nodo had to make carriers actually push updates to phones ?
...waiting for some hard news...
I'm hoping that I'll connect to Zune soon and see that an update is available. I'd like full Twitter integration in my Mango.
ohgood said:
anyone know if there will be a 2 stage release to end users like nodo had to make carriers actually push updates to phones ?
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I'm not sure what you're asking. All WP7 updates go through a certification process with both handset manufacturers and mobile operators. But neither of those entities "push" the updates to phones. Update delivery only happens through Microsoft (i.e., Zune).
So, what is happening now is that the other companies involved have received their copies of Mango for final testing and sign-off. They had likely already received earlier builds, so they could begin development of new features and/or apps (thanks to all of the new capabilities they might want to capitalize on), but now the clock is ticking on them. They complete the sign-off, send back to Microsoft any modifications they have made specific to their hardware or mobile service, and then Microsoft combines those into various bundles that ultimately get delivered to our phones.
The one exception to that rule is unbranded phones, which will probably receive the update before carrier-branded ones, since there is only one level of sign-off needed before the update can be made available.
The big question is whether Microsoft will be able to apply more pressure to carriers (especially AT&T) to sign-off in a timely manner. On this issue, let's just say that I have my doubts.
Out of curiosity, did we ever get a notice of the specific date that NoDo went RTM? I don't recall seeing one. Maybe the fact that Microsoft is being so vocal this time around is part of their plan to "motivate" carriers.
This is fantastic. Like others Im hoping someone leaks the latest build so XDA members can get their fingers dirty.
RoboDad said:
I'm not sure what you're asking. All WP7 updates go through a certification process with both handset manufacturers and mobile operators. But neither of those entities "push" the updates to phones. Update delivery only happens through Microsoft (i.e., Zune).
So, what is happening now is that the other companies involved have received their copies of Mango for final testing and sign-off. They had likely already received earlier builds, so they could begin development of new features and/or apps (thanks to all of the new capabilities they might want to capitalize on), but now the clock is ticking on them. They complete the sign-off, send back to Microsoft any modifications they have made specific to their hardware or mobile service, and then Microsoft combines those into various bundles that ultimately get delivered to our phones.
The one exception to that rule is unbranded phones, which will probably receive the update before carrier-branded ones, since there is only one level of sign-off needed before the update can be made available.
The big question is whether Microsoft will be able to apply more pressure to carriers (especially AT&T) to sign-off in a timely manner. On this issue, let's just say that I have my doubts.
Out of curiosity, did we ever get a notice of the specific date that NoDo went RTM? I don't recall seeing one. Maybe the fact that Microsoft is being so vocal this time around is part of their plan to "motivate" carriers.
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i don't know how to be more clear with my question.
i can't see att caring about what microsoft says about signing off. they aren't exactly pushing wp products, and could care less about an update that will -not- sell another contract/phone to existing customers. an iphone hardware update on the other hand, oh yes yes yes, they love that stuff.
i did see a couple of blog posts (via my android news aggregator) stating that there would be a mango hardware unveil today, along with the rtm statement. apparently, bloggers jumped the gun, again.
the rtm statement is really a non-news worthy event. "we released something to someone, so sometime soon you might have a something for your phone. maybe." really that's all it is.
now HARDWARE... that's something i can understand there being threads and news about. say, searay or whatever the supposed new SHIPPING device is, that's news.
anyway, back to my jonesing for new tech... maybe endgadget or someone has some cool news... rss update time
ohgood said:
i don't know how to be more clear with my question.
i can't see att caring about what microsoft says about signing off. they aren't exactly pushing wp products
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Pushing products in a store and pushing updates to existing phones have nothing to do with each other. So I still don't understand your original question about carriers pushing the update to our phones. They don't push the update, Microsoft does.
So based on a leaked document from AT&T the 7.8 update will not go live until WP8 devices are released.... that means 7.8 will not come to the Lumia until Christmas...
Nokia and MS are just playing with the customer making promises they will not fulfill.
Matters not to me I will grab a Win Phone 8 device when they are available and either slide my L900 in a drawer or put it on ebay, as will most others who want the latest
oh yeah, since we all have a pile of money laying around to update our phones every six months. prick.
I thought Nokia was going to directly push the updates to customers who sign up for a program? I was confused when AT&T mentioned they had a timeline for it.
bigwavesurfer4 said:
oh yeah, since we all have a pile of money laying around to update our phones every six months. prick.
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Careful - name calling isn't part of the discussion. If someone can afford it they are welcome to do what they want with their money. He said what he's going to do, not what everyone should do. Hence, name calling is totally unwarranted here.
peterfnet said:
I thought Nokia was going to directly push the updates to customers who sign up for a program? I was confused when AT&T mentioned they had a timeline for it.
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Yes, the update will be made available OTA afaik. My guess is that AT&T will do the official push to gather everyone in so they all are running 7.8. I would assume that even though I will be pushing the update to myself, not everyone will want to do that (depending on how it's made available). My dad comes to mind
hvbelton said:
Matters not to me I will grab a Win Phone 8 device when they are available and either slide my L900 in a drawer or put it on ebay, as will most others who want the latest
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Exactly - to be the latest and greatest at all times, you need to be ready to shell out the cash. I'll be looking at the 1st gen WP8 devices, but I'm pretty sure I'll be picking up a slate/tablet this time around as my iToy err iPad (gen 1) is gathering dust due to uselessness and lag (should have NEVER added the latest OS patch =/).
I'm already looking towards WP8 Gen II devices :angel:
Actually I am a little fuzzy about the OTA update thing. When they were talking about that, were they referring to future WP8 devices, or legacy devices as well. Same goes for the 18 month support promise. Moving forward, or including legacy devices.
If a WP7.8 OTA update is planned, do devices already have that capability, or do we need a "plug in" update to enable it?
Sent from my Lumia 900 using Board Express Pro
jimski said:
Actually I am a little fuzzy about the OTA update thing. When they were talking about that, were they referring to future WP8 devices, or legacy devices as well. Same goes for the 18 month support promise. Moving forward, or including legacy devices.
If a WP7.8 OTA update is planned, do devices already have that capability, or do we need a "plug in" update to enable it?
Sent from my Lumia 900 using Board Express Pro
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Well, I'm going off of some articles I read about the WP 7.8 update, including what Paul Thurrott said. However, I can't seem to find a direct quote from Microsoft. So, we'll just have to wait and see. Nokia said something about 7.8 arriving in the coming weeks, but again, that could have also been in reference to something else (re: exclusive apps and extras).
*shrug* still lots to follow =)
I remember well that only WP8 will receive ota.
xsever said:
I remember well that only WP8 will receive ota.
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Yes, as a regular feature. But 7.8 was discussed otherwise:
Windows Update. Windows Phone 7.8 will be delivered directly to all Windows Phone users, bypassing the carriers. You will be able to download and install Windows Phone 7.8 over Wi-Fi, at home or wherever else, and install this update. This type of updating will be made available in Windows Phone 8, as well, as given my long, loud, and lengthy complaining about the lack of such updating in Windows Phone 7.x, you won’t be surprised, maybe, to discover that Microsoft jokingly calls this “the Paul Thurrott feature” internally.
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That was the only part I could find, not an official bit from Microsoft themselves. you can see it here: http://www.winsupersite.com/article/windowsphone75/windows-phone-78-preview-143476
So, AT&T customers won't get the 7.8 update until Xmas? Yet another reason not buying devices from the carriers... Alternatively, anyone who doesn't want to wait for AT&T generously allowing him to update - could just flash his device with a non-AT&T ROM - right?
efektos said:
So, AT&T customers won't get the 7.8 update until Xmas? Yet another reason not buying devices from the carriers... Alternatively, anyone who doesn't want to wait for AT&T generously allowing him to update - could just flash his device with a non-AT&T ROM - right?
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So then I suppose you know when everyone else will be receiving WP7.8. What a surprise if AT&T releases it before everybody. They do carry the flagship device after all.
Sent from my Lumia 900 using Board Express Pro
bigwavesurfer4 said:
oh yeah, since we all have a pile of money laying around to update our phones every six months. prick.
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Was going to say something in response but have decided instead that, thanks to people like surfer dude here, for me xda no longer serves the purpose for me it once did. It was one of the best sources on the for useful, helpful information for phones and tablets, but has become a source of irritation and frustration with very little useful information. There are far too many people who whine and complain without offering anything useful or meaningful to the community as a whole, to the point there is more griping than anything else. That being said, I am outta here and on to find the quality elsewhere. l8r
when they say in the "coming weeks", anybody have any idea of "how many" weeks does in the "coming weeks" refers to? i'm actually using an unbranded unit, so i'm actually looking forward for this update
jimski said:
So then I suppose you know when everyone else will be receiving WP7.8. What a surprise if AT&T releases it before everybody. They do carry the flagship device after all.
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Honestly I didn't know that there's an official release date for WP7.8, but I presume it'll be available before (or at the same time at most) AT&T releases their branded version of the update...