Develop Bugs

Next WP7 OS update

So one of Microsoft's big features for WP7 over WM is that OS updates can be sent out directly by MS to all models, eliminating the previous delays from device manufacturers and operators. The great benefit here is not only for all users getting access to all new OS features, but a really important aspect is limiting fragmentation of the platform for developers. I.e. Developers don't need the huge hassle of trying to support all types of hardware and OS to get the highest number of users for their app. This is what killed Windows Mobile, and ultimately is going to kill Android if you read the story about Angry Birds.
So how about a vote? Do you think that Microsoft will hold up to the promise that they will release the OS updates to all WP7 hardware at the same time?

Will they? Who knows. But if they don't they will have effectively abandoned the smartphone market permanently because the number of people left who would believe a word they say about anything wouldn't be enough to sustain a small tech company. I can't imagine Microsoft is that stupid but they did abandon it once already.

markgamber said:
Will they? Who knows. But if they don't they will have effectively abandoned the smartphone market permanently because the number of people left who would believe a word they say about anything wouldn't be enough to sustain a small tech company. I can't imagine Microsoft is that stupid but they did abandon it once already.
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Wasn't once, Sidekick anyone?

I think that they will update all the devices at the same time and I think that all of the new WP7 devices have a good amount of sales and so they should update all of them.

I don't think you will see updates all at the same time, i think you will see them based upon carriers and headsets but "Around" the same time. I don't think MS would want to push an update all at once unless its just a core update and doesn't impact carrier requirements or device specific issues.

blahism said:
I don't think you will see updates all at the same time, i think you will see them based upon carriers and headsets but "Around" the same time. I don't think MS would want to push an update all at once unless its just a core update and doesn't impact carrier requirements or device specific issues.
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I think you raised 2 interesting points there. Say there is a device specific issue, does the manufacturer submit that to MS for inclusion in an update to that particular device? What if they don't bother? What if MS make a new feature in the OS that requires a new driver from the device manufacturer? If they don't bother then its deadlock, and in that case this situation is no better than with Windows Mobile of leaving all updates to the manufacturer. Personally I think MS are in big trouble here if they haven't thought this through completely...

indiekiduk said:
I think you raised 2 interesting points there. Say there is a device specific issue, does the manufacturer submit that to MS for inclusion in an update to that particular device? What if they don't bother? What if MS make a new feature in the OS that requires a new driver from the device manufacturer? If they don't bother then its deadlock, and in that case this situation is no better than with Windows Mobile of leaving all updates to the manufacturer. Personally I think MS are in big trouble here if they haven't thought this through completely...
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If an OEM wants to push a device-specific update, they submit it to Microsoft and Microsoft will push it out after approval (the carrier may need to approve as well). Microsoft, of course, could potentially fix this themselves if the OEM refuses to fix it but I can't imagine that happening.
Microsoft has developed a vast majority of the drivers. Again, I just can't see Microsoft making a new feature that...
1. Relies on a driver and/or...
2. The driver isn't written by MS
They've thought this through pretty well. Some more explanation of the timing and carrier approval can be found here.
http://windowsphonesecrets.com/2010...-and-carriers-ability-to-block-those-updates/

If you consider how HTC does it, they add their custom features in an app. HTC has wanted to incorporate Sense into their WP7 offerings. But MS has not allowed it. Instead they compensate by adding Sense-like features to the HTC Hub. I believe this is the extent of any customization among various handset makers.

RustyGrom said:
They've thought this through pretty well. Some more explanation of the timing and carrier approval can be found here.
http://windowsphonesecrets.com/2010...-and-carriers-ability-to-block-those-updates/
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So Paul Thurrott says that (to prevent fragmentation) if an operator/handset manufacturer blocks their devices from an OS update then they can't blog the next one and it's automatically sent out. That sounds absolutely mental!

indiekiduk said:
So Paul Thurrott says that (to prevent fragmentation) if an operator/handset manufacturer blocks their devices from an OS update then they can't blog the next one and it's automatically sent out. That sounds absolutely mental!
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I agree that it's definitely a bit strange. But let's just see how this works out in practice. In theory Android can get updates super fast and in theory the carriers can block iPhone updates. Microsoft is still controlling the process, not the OEMs or carriers. The carriers understandably don't want to run untested code on their networks. Microsoft is giving them the option to delay/block. If they abuse it, Microsoft could just give them the middle finger and release them directly. It sounds like the carriers are going to play ball. The ones that don't will certainly get a bad rap and could lose customers over it.

We certainly do not want the mess that is the Android update process, with Google, the Carriers and the OEM's all having a say in when updates go out!

adesonic said:
We certainly do not want the mess that is the Android update process, with Google, the Carriers and the OEM's all having a say in when updates go out!
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Ugh no, Google phones get the update first and fast. As of right now Google has only one phone.
Its all the other Android phones that have this problem with OEMs, and carriers.
WP7 will be just like the Nexus One. All WP7 devices will get updated regardless of carriers. If your carrier wont allow the OTA update then just connect to Zune.
I also think the updates will be regional.
Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk

adesonic said:
We certainly do not want the mess that is the Android update process, with Google, the Carriers and the OEM's all having a say in when updates go out!
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That's the kind of crap that killed WinMo for me. Three times with three different phones I ran into the problem of video "tearing". Three times I emailed Microsoft support, HTC support and AT&T support about the problem and three times they were all content to point fingers at each other. Microsoft says it was a problem with HTC's drivers. HTC says it was a problem with the carrier not approving whatever updates and AT&T says if you want to solve the problem buy this new phone. And I did that twice to find the latest and greatest had the same problem, no one actually did anything. What was worse was finding updates on HTC's site that I couldn't apply to my phone because they were tied to particular carriers and my carrier, of course, wasn't one of them. The worst kind of planned obsolescence. That was when I said the hell with WinMo and bought an iPhone and all that garbage went away. When it had a problem, I went to Apple. Period. Updates came from Apple. Period. And they've only recently stopped updating the original iPhone after how long? Apple cut out the carrier for a reason and has set the bar that Microsoft should at least have the decency to meet if not exceed if they expect to be taken seriously.

vetvito said:
Ugh no, Google phones get the update first and fast. As of right now Google has only one phone.
Its all the other Android phones that have this problem with OEMs, and carriers.
WP7 will be just like the Nexus One. All WP7 devices will get updated regardless of carriers. If your carrier wont allow the OTA update then just connect to Zune.
I also think the updates will be regional.
Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk
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I agree things were safer for users with the Nexus one, but they've stopped selling it now for whatever reason. I'd love to find out why they decided to do that because that model was a major advantage. All new Android users are going to hit this issue which is what killed WinMo as stated by markgamber.
Also you can't really say what will happen with WP7 because it remains to be seen what will actually happen when its update time. Actually it won't be until the 2nd update we'll find out if people with the old models are screwed over. It'll actually be less of a big deal if Microsoft take 1 year between OS updates because most users will want new hardware anyway, however it could still be a major disaster if manufacturers blame MS for pushing out an untested OS upgrade that breaks thousands of phones. I expect there will be some exemption like hardware of over 2 years old does not get upgrades from MS, that would get them off the hook slightly.
I agree that Apple is great for the consumer, if there is any problem Apple fix it, they control the whole experience, anything you buy on the app store will work on hardware up to 2 years old. However for developers its not such a great picture. The app store just breaks even, Apple aren't interested in app developers being successful, they only built the app store because jailbreaks were doing it anyway, previously they only planned for javascript web apps, and if anyone tries to do anything innovative outside the restrictions of the SDK their app gets banned and they get threatened their developer account will be cancelled. However there was a some money to be made by some lucky people, and everyone else made at least more than building windows mobile apps in the old days. Anyway Apple make all their money from the hardware they don't need to make money from some 3rd party dev making a good app. Google also don't care about developers, the market place is terrible and its widely known that devs with apps on both platforms get like 0.3% of their sales on Android. But as with Apple, Google don't care about the developers either. With Android, Google attract phone manufacturers by offering an OS for free, which they used to need to pay MS $30 per license or whatever. And by having tons of phones out there, Google make a ton of cash from the ads in the built in apps google search, and google maps. They have no need to support developers, and if the platform becomes fragmented they don't care because as long as they sell more phones they make more money.
It remains to be seen what the point of the WP7 marketplace is to MS. My friend has the #1 shooter app and sells 1 a day so MS will be running the store at a loss. And if they need to give WP7 away for free to compete with Android for traction there really is no hope.

You guys bring up some really great points. I am starting to think that the reason Apple stayed with At&t had something to do with updates.
To hopefully add on to this great discussion I think that the US carrier market is in for a real change soon. Every day I see prices coming down and carriers having more and more of the same features. Once carriers are handing out the exact same features it might not be that big of a deal to have MS release all updates. Other countries are way more competitive with their carrier choices and I think US will have to evolve because users demand it.

bowpay said:
You guys bring up some really great points. I am starting to think that the reason Apple stayed with At&t had something to do with updates.
To hopefully add on to this great discussion I think that the US carrier market is in for a real change soon. Every day I see prices coming down and carriers having more and more of the same features. Once carriers are handing out the exact same features it might not be that big of a deal to have MS release all updates. Other countries are way more competitive with their carrier choices and I think US will have to evolve because users demand it.
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Just a bit of a correction:
iPhone stayed with AT&T on the domestic market, it is deployed across various providers on the international market.

To be honest I'm very curious about the update process. It's not true that all WP7 devices have got the same features. At the moment I've got HTC Trophy on Vodafone and HTC HD7 on O2. The same system but different search providers in IE, different regional keyboards available, different system languages, different settings for adding email accounts etc.. So it seems like every phone has carrier specific rom and I believe carriers would like to keep it that way. It looks like current roms are miles away from one unified rom as we see on iPhone.

Regardless of how it is made available I have heard that an update including copy /paste will be ready end Jan...

robart76 said:
To be honest I'm very curious about the update process. It's not true that all WP7 devices have got the same features. At the moment I've got HTC Trophy on Vodafone and HTC HD7 on O2. The same system but different search providers in IE, different regional keyboards available, different system languages, different settings for adding email accounts etc.. So it seems like every phone has carrier specific rom and I believe carriers would like to keep it that way. It looks like current roms are miles away from one unified rom as we see on iPhone.
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That's a good point.
Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk

robart76 said:
To be honest I'm very curious about the update process. It's not true that all WP7 devices have got the same features. At the moment I've got HTC Trophy on Vodafone and HTC HD7 on O2. The same system but different search providers in IE, different regional keyboards available, different system languages, different settings for adding email accounts etc.. So it seems like every phone has carrier specific rom and I believe carriers would like to keep it that way. It looks like current roms are miles away from one unified rom as we see on iPhone.
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The only thing that matters is that a given program runs on all WP7 phones equally. That's where Apple currently excels and why Android has been called "fragmented". What they look like and what programs are included with a given phone on a given carrier don't matter.

my two cents about wp7 and nodo update

I've been sitting on the sidelines not being vocal, but I think there's something we need to consider...
When we got our wp7 phones we need what features were lacking. If you didn't you should have done some research before you bought the phone. Wp7 is still in its infancy and expect there to be bugs and problems. If you wanted something more concrete should have stick with your iphone or Android. For what we do have everything seems to run pretty smooth.
Im not going to lie, but I curious about the nodo update. But im glad I haven't received it. Because then our phones will be locked and the homebrew segment and actual limited customization will be gone. Until someone of course finds a work around. And someone always does. And honestly, on your old phones how many of you even knew it had a copy.paste feature? Instead of focusing on nodo update which doesn't really do much, except speed up our phones, why no concentrate more on mango! Mango is the update that we all should want! Just my two cents. Btw i use a HTC hd7 on tmobile USA and its done everything i wanted without any problems!

I think people are focusing on Nodo because it's the 1st update and it will give us an idea about how Microsoft will handle the platform.
If they can't even handle a small update with almost nothing in it, this is worrying for the future. If they need 5 months to release such a small update, when will we get Mango? it's nice to make big promises about Mango but I'm starting to believe Thurrott when he says 2012 when you consider Microsoft's pace. I couldn't care less about Nodo, I don't use C&P that much and it doesn't fix the bugs people really care about like Live Tiles and push notifications not working. It only fixes one bug and that's the marketplace one.
And how long until we stop saying "they've just started, give them time"? After 6 months they should be about to deliver their 2nd update and be talking about the next one. Even if it's in 3 months, at least talk about it! They act like they don't give a sh*t and I'm sure soon people will start trading their phones and go back to Android/iOS.

That's true too. But considering this is their first update we can't assume things will be perfect. Now if the next major update rolls out and there's still issues with updating I for would question Microsoft. But I see your point of view. Perhaps Microsoft was releasing this small update to see how their update system would work? Dunno, but don't give up on Microsoft just yet. Trust me, I miss my android G2, but my wp7 phone hasn't let me done yet. And I was just thinking, do we really need multitasking? That could open up a whole new can of worms.

A can of good worms. Especially in the Modding scene.

vetvito said:
A can of good worms. Especially in the Modding scene.
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I've been the first to defend WP7 and Microsoft all over XDA for months now but with official announcements starting to be pushed back while devices in other countries and even some here are running the update Microsoft is really starting to look bad.

z33dev33l said:
I've been the first to defend WP7 and Microsoft all over XDA for months now but with official announcements starting to be pushed back while devices in other countries and even some here are running the update Microsoft is really starting to look bad.
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Same here. I'm really starting to get worried that it'll be like everyone feared.
Oh well, I really thought they would up their game with this.
Still a great phone, just now I know it won't be supported.

I'm still not quite sure what carriers have to do with updating the phone. The update comes through Zune. C&P can't screw up a network, neither can the marketplace not crashing all the time.
In other words, this update fiasco is purely MS's fault.
Be it that they didn't make a better deal with carriers, they underestimated logistics, they haven't been forthright with customers, it is the fault of MS.
On the other hand. If you bought the phone because some said someone at MS said an update was coming out soon that would add C&P, I can see how you'd be pissed off, but you'd still be silly for buying a phone based on a rumor as opposed to its merits, which are plentiful.
My problem with this whole thing is:
1/. If MS was gonna stay mum and not update us on the delays, they should've STFU all the way until they announced a concrete date for the update.
2/. If MS was gonna talk about updates, they should've kept us posted all the way instead of tidbits here and there.
The way their going about it making it so some can't even recommend WP7 because of this update fiasco. I mean, since when couldn't MS send out bug fixes? I get one almost every week for my PC and that OS is way more complicated than a phone OS.

That's so true. They shouldn't make promises they can't keep. And if they say something and it dont go right atleast keep us in the loop. I also agree its hard to reccomend a phone where the support from Microsoft seems to be very spotty. So my question is, is it still too early to tell the future of wp7? I guess now I can understand why some people are asking about trying to dual boot on our phones. So is it the carriers fault, Microsoft fault, or the OEMs hardware fault we're not getting updates? And since we have to update through Zune, what do the carriers have anything to do with the updates?

I think what is forgotten here is that XDA is a geek forum. Most people do not have a clue about copy and paste. They want to hear music surf the web and take pictures. We easily forget that we are not normal consumers.

hassia said:
I think what is forgotten here is that XDA is a geek forum. Most people do not have a clue about copy and paste. They want to hear music surf the web and take pictures. We easily forget that we are not normal consumers.
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Normal customers want their push notifications to work properly, that should have been fixed within a month and Microsoft haven't even talked about it.

Peew971 said:
Normal customers want their push notifications to work properly, that should have been fixed within a month and Microsoft haven't even talked about it.
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Hear, hear! Allowing a maximum of 15 apps with notifications was a huge oversight on their part, and afaik there are still no plans to fix this.
As for the marketplace bugs, from what I can tell not even all of those are fixed in the No[Can]Do upgrade. Probably because this particular update has been sitting on the MS servers since January waiting for an actual release.

emigrating said:
Hear, hear! Allowing a maximum of 15 apps with notifications was a huge oversight on their part, and afaik there are still no plans to fix this.
As for the marketplace bugs, from what I can tell not even all of those are fixed in the No[Can]Do upgrade. Probably because this particular update has been sitting on the MS servers since January waiting for an actual release.
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The messed up part is that this is an advantage.
While they were ironing out whatever back-alley deals they had to iron out with the carriers, they could've been taking notes on what actual people in the know on forums like these had to ***** about.
They could've then slipped a few of the fixes, swapped a few 1s with 0s in the code, tweaked it around just a bit to make the OS even better.
Instead, we're going to get the update verbatim, the geek world is going to laugh and MS is gonna wonder where it all went wrong for the umpteenth time.

Probably just a reiteration of what others have said, but nonetheless my opinion. Microsoft first said that the NoDo update would be coming early next year so most people assumed January, than they said late February (I think they did), then it was early March, and now its late March. This update merely adds copy + paste (along with a few bugfixes, one of which ISN'T for the camera) and that is a very basic feature! Apple just released iOS 4.3 (which updated the Safari javascript engine and some other stuff) AHEAD of schedule by 2 days and Microsoft keeps pushing back a minor update by weeks.
I'm pissed because I want WP7 to succeed. I used the device and I loved the device, but it's not nearly as good as its competitors as a whole. If Microsoft doesn't figure out what their doing WP7 will fail.

The general rule is you NEVER buy a phone based on what is "coming". You always buy based on what is in the phone when you bought it. I went through the same crap with blackberry, promising an os update to the storm 2 series. When OS6 came out they were like nope, not supporting that handset. Go buy a the touch.
I'm very satisfied with the Samsung Focus I have now, any future updates is just icing on the cake. You'll be sorely disappointed if you buy things based on promises

Sorry I will have to reiterate my post 'normal consumers' want to play music,surf the web play youtube and games most will not use copy and paste that is just a fact. I work in a theater with a varied range of people most do not even know they have copy and paste capabilities.

Fed up with WP7?

Is anyone else getting a bit fed up (to put it politely) with windows phone 7?
I really love the OS, but this whole fiasco with the 2 updates is kinda putting me off! Not sure why i cant update like has been documented elsewhere on the forum.
I can't unlock it, i cant get the update, its starting to annoy me a lot. All i want is the simple copy and paste function of the phone, nothing special! I do not know why Microsoft did not just add these features before they even released the OS!?!?

Try this, you may like it.
http://blog.walshie.me/2011/04/04/so-who-wants-windows-phone-updates-like-right-now/

if you're having problems unlocking your device, you should really hit the chevron thread. But for the most part, any issues with the unlock process on my end have been fixed.
As far as updating, you should check a few areas that have a nice update step for everyone and it works for anyone whose tried so far.
Then there is the option of actually waiting for your specific device to update via carrier.
It gets tiring to see the I'm tired of windows phone because it hasn't updated even though you like the experience...it's the first update...the very first one at that. Take a look at android updating, or even the god awful windows mobile updating

Updater
influenceuk said:
Is anyone else getting a bit fed up (to put it politely) with windows phone 7?
I really love the OS, but this whole fiasco with the 2 updates is kinda putting me off! Not sure why i cant update like has been documented elsewhere on the forum.
I can't unlock it, i cant get the update, its starting to annoy me a lot. All i want is the simple copy and paste function of the phone, nothing special! I do not know why Microsoft did not just add these features before they even released the OS!?!?
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Try this. It's brand new, but, given who it came from it should work.

influenceuk said:
Is anyone else getting a bit fed up (to put it politely) with windows phone 7?
I really love the OS, but this whole fiasco with the 2 updates is kinda putting me off! Not sure why i cant update like has been documented elsewhere on the forum.
I can't unlock it, i cant get the update, its starting to annoy me a lot. All i want is the simple copy and paste function of the phone, nothing special! I do not know why Microsoft did not just add these features before they even released the OS!?!?
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First update errors were caused by Samsung not MS.
Second update is being held up by the carriers.
I have an unlocked/unbranded samsung omnia 7 and haven't gotten the update, but I don't care because it is only a minor update and I know it is coming. Be patient bro.

influenceuk said:
Is anyone else getting a bit fed up (to put it politely) with windows phone 7?
I really love the OS, but this whole fiasco with the 2 updates is kinda putting me off! Not sure why i cant update like has been documented elsewhere on the forum.
I can't unlock it, i cant get the update, its starting to annoy me a lot. All i want is the simple copy and paste function of the phone, nothing special! I do not know why Microsoft did not just add these features before they even released the OS!?!?
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I can sort of understand the whole update irritation around here. Honestly a lot of users truly do care about a massive wave of updates... I'm not one of those fortunately... But with that being said, are people really this ignorant? I could argue that a million Android or iPhone features are basic and should have been coded before the release of the OS... Nothing is EVER feature complete. People have different views, different ideas, and therefore different features take precedent over others... You can't expect the OS to be released with every feature you consider 'simple' or 'basic' because nothing would ever get released in this world...

FiyaFleye said:
I can sort of understand the whole update irritation around here. Honestly a lot of users truly do care about a massive wave of updates... I'm not one of those fortunately... But with that being said, are people really this ignorant? I could argue that a million Android or iPhone features are basic and should have been coded before the release of the OS... Nothing is EVER feature complete. People have different views, different ideas, and therefore different features take precedent over others... You can't expect the OS to be released with every feature you consider 'simple' or 'basic' because nothing would ever get released in this world...
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I have to disagree with you on this. Both Android and iOS got grief regarding simple features. MS should have learnt from their mistakes, as WP7 was release years after these 2.
Any way i am now running Mango, and i have to say this is a Massive leap forward for the OS. If i had not have invested so much into iOS i would move over and just use WP7!
As for my previous post, i was venting my frustration. Which i think i am allowed to do and have an opinion. Granted the update only brought copy and paste and a few other minor features but these are massive features. Especially when using the device as a business device.

FiyaFleye said:
I can sort of understand the whole update irritation around here. Honestly a lot of users truly do care about a massive wave of updates... I'm not one of those fortunately... But with that being said, are people really this ignorant? I could argue that a million Android or iPhone features are basic and should have been coded before the release of the OS... Nothing is EVER feature complete. People have different views, different ideas, and therefore different features take precedent over others... You can't expect the OS to be released with every feature you consider 'simple' or 'basic' because nothing would ever get released in this world...
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You're wrong and being disingenuous.
The OS (even Mango) is missing basic functionality that is delivered by any decent feature phone, and even some dumbphones. This same functionality can be had on any cheap Blackbery or Android handset.
Also, the updates are too slow. Microsoft should use a faster feature update policy especially since the OS is young. Once they patch the basic functionality holes, then they can try (but fail) at using their Windows Service Pack-type update iterations.
The OS has a high satisfaction rate because most of the people who are using it are fervent Microsoft supporters (most, not all) and this is quite evident form reading various blogs and especially various forums.
Most consumers don't even need a rep to tell them something else is better.
All they need to do is play with the phone and they will easily see that the feature parity between WP7 and even a feature phone is a bit startling and they will probably opt for a cheap Android phone or iPhone 3GS instead.
It's simpy how things are right now.
Hopefully they speed it up after Mango and focus on the BASICs, cause that is what's causing people to look at other platforms right now.
My mom wanted to get my niece a Focus (cause she liked my HD7) and she didn't want it cause she can't MMS decently on it (she texts/MMSes a lot) and there is no IM client. She got an Inspire 4G instead... However, this same person had no problems accepting my HD2 as a gift over the new phone, but I didn't give it cause my mom didn't want to pay more by using 2 different carriers and no family plan.
Yes, it made me a bit sadfaced (especially given how the overall aesthetics of WP7 is superior to Android, and females tend to weight that a bit higher than men TBQH), but you cannot even begin to argue with such a decision seeing as how even Mango will fail to begin to address some of these functionality gaps. She was migrating over from a Feature Phone, btw.
It was the perfect case of "I don't care how it looks, I care what it can do." as far as I'm concerned.
But of course I'm sure you will think this was only an outlier situation

N8ter said:
You're wrong and being disingenuous.
The OS (even Mango) is missing basic functionality that is delivered by any decent feature phone, and even some dumbphones. This same functionality can be had on any cheap Blackbery or Android handset.
Also, the updates are too slow. Microsoft should use a faster feature update policy especially since the OS is young. Once they patch the basic functionality holes, then they can try (but fail) at using their Windows Service Pack-type update iterations.
The OS has a high satisfaction rate because most of the people who are using it are fervent Microsoft supporters (most, not all) and this is quite evident form reading various blogs and especially various forums.
Most consumers don't even need a rep to tell them something else is better.
All they need to do is play with the phone and they will easily see that the feature parity between WP7 and even a feature phone is a bit startling and they will probably opt for a cheap Android phone or iPhone 3GS instead.
It's simpy how things are right now.
Hopefully they speed it up after Mango and focus on the BASICs, cause that is what's causing people to look at other platforms right now.
My mom wanted to get my niece a Focus and she didn't want it cause she can't MMS decently on it (she texts/MMSes a lot) and there is no IM client. She got an Inspire 4G instead...
Yes, it made me a bit sadfaced (especially given how the overall aesthetics of WP7 is superior to Android, and females tend to weight that a bit higher than men TBQH), but you cannot even begin to argue with such a decision seeing as how even Mango will fail to begin to address some of these functionality gaps. She was migrating over from a Feature Phone, btw.
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may I ask what these basic features are that mango is supposedly missing? because I have the beta and I feel that all loose ends are tied now.

Here's my 2 cents. I have owned a Hero, Epic and now the Evo. I have spent countless hours trying out the best combinations for ROMs and Kernels, and I am pretty fed up with it.
Just last night, I spent 3 HOURS manually updating my girlfriends Epic to EC05 (2.2), simply because the POS wouldn't download and install. And at least Microsoft is including new features, not new apps that take up enough space as it is.
As far as I'm concerned, WP7 is a great OS, and I am sooooooo beyond dealing with this development crap it makes me irritated every time I do it.
With all that being said, I plan on switching to WP7 as soon as Mango hits Sprint with some new phones. You guys that own the WP7 phones are lucky. It is not worth the time or hassel to mess with Android, you will run into problems and I GUARANTEE YOU WILL GET P****D.
Hope I helped.

Dj21o said:
Here's my 2 cents. I have owned a Hero, Epic and now the Evo. I have spent countless hours trying out the best combinations for ROMs and Kernels, and I am pretty fed up with it.
Just last night, I spent 3 HOURS manually updating my girlfriends Epic to EC05 (2.2), simply because the POS wouldn't download and install. And at least Microsoft is including new features, not new apps that take up enough space as it is.
As far as I'm concerned, WP7 is a great OS, and I am sooooooo beyond dealing with this development crap it makes me irritated every time I do it.
With all that being said, I plan on switching to WP7 as soon as Mango hits Sprint with some new phones. You guys that own the WP7 phones are lucky. It is not worth the time or hassel to mess with Android, you will run into problems and I GUARANTEE YOU WILL GET P****D.
Hope I helped.
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That's the main reason I won't root my HTC Inspire 4G and customize it. I've been there with my HD2 and know where it leads. My Inspire currently is like a pristine, un-trampled, wilderness in all of its glory. It works perfectly and smoothly and causes me no troubles. The moment I were to root it, it would cease being the pristine glory it is because it would continually get altered and messed with instead of just using it for what it is.
I've been there with my HD2 and know how customizing works. This is one of the main reasons behind the locked nature of the iPhone. Apple would rather have people using the iPhone for what it is than continually altering it and potentially getting no satisfaction from it. MS apparently understands this as well. WP7 is just as locked as iOS and they really need to stick to their guns. There are those who want the choice to customize and that's fine. Android provides all they want. But some of them want every system to be made for them and only their way. They seem to not be able to cope with any system not being setup to their standards, regardless of how selfish they are being. They want it all and don't mind others not having any.

eric12341 said:
may I ask what these basic features are that mango is supposedly missing? because I have the beta and I feel that all loose ends are tied now.
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Can you email or MMS video from Mango?
http://forums.wpcentral.com/windows-phone-7-general-discussion/178807.htm#post1554773
I'll help you out, though:
Just tried a short video and it has the share options to Facebook, SkyDrive and your email addresses so it is indeed working in the Mango beta.
(My video successfully uploaded to facebook, NEAT!)
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Then:
Are you able to send a short video to others with MMS? What about more than one picture at a time in a MMS?
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Then in reply to that:
At this stage 'Messaging' is not an option in Mango, just email, facebook and skydrive.
You can only send one picture at a time in an MMS from WP7 Mango (can you send more in a single MMS on other platforms?).
EDIT: or rather i can't find a way to do more than one picture in a single MMS...there may be a way
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So, no. You can't do it. Apparently you can at least email them now, however...
Also, I missed the Mango release date. I don't pay for smartphone updates but if you can tell me what version of Zune to use to update my HD7 I'll be happy.
Last time I checked most people were using NoDo, and that's what people going into store experience when they play with the phones...
This is like telling a Mac user to buy a PC because I have Windows 8 Beta and it's awesome.

N8ter said:
Can you email or MMS video from Mango?
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Click to collapse
I guess the people that care about that would be upset then.

People send videos through e-mail and MMS all the time...

MrNetrix said:
E-mail video? Since when do people e-mail or even MMS videos? My feature phone can definitely do neither.
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Either you have a Feature Phone from the late 90s, or you're lying through your teeth.
Even dumb phones can MMS video these days if they have a camera (not all, but some - they're only dumbphones). Practically every feature phone with a camera can MMS videos.
To your first part of the post (not quoted): Free on Contract blackberries and cheap iPhone 3GSes can do all this, and more. That's not even comparing current WP7 OS/Devices to Android and iOS devices that were released in the same timeframe.
I'm not going to get baited into another heated forum battle, so... last response to you
If your only retort is "who does <something," then you've already defeated your own argument. A majority of cell phone users are on Feature and Dumb Phones. Millions and millions of people utilize the video MMS feature on those phones. And feature phones have email clients as well (some having somewhat decent HTML support, even).

N8ter said:
Either you have a Feature Phone from the late 90s, or you're lying through your teeth.
Even dumb phones can MMS video these days if they have a camera (not all, but some - they're only dumbphones). Practically every feature phone with a camera can MMS videos.
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No, I was just unaware that mine was able to since I never even had the remote need to.

N8ter said:
Can you email or MMS video from Mango?
http://forums.wpcentral.com/windows-phone-7-general-discussion/178807.htm#post1554773
I'll help you out, though:
Then:
Then in reply to that:
So, no. You can't do it. Apparently you can at least email them now, however...
Also, I missed the Mango release date. I don't pay for smartphone updates but if you can tell me what version of Zune to use to update my HD7 I'll be happy.
Last time I checked most people were using NoDo, and that's what people going into store experience when they play with the phones...
This is like telling a Mac user to buy a PC because I have Windows 8 Beta and it's awesome.
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keep in mind that mango is still in BETA!!! video through MMS is impractical I've gotten a few on my tp2 and the quality was ****ty at best. most people share through Facebook now and have smartphones that can do that ,as well as emailing them. so any other "features"?

eric12341 said:
keep in mind that mango is still in BETA!!! video through MMS is impractical I've gotten a few on my tp2 and the quality was ****ty at best. most people share through Facebook now and have smartphones that can do that ,as well as emailing them. so any other "features"?
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And how is your grandmother who has a feature phone going to view that facebook video from her phone when she's at the flea market lookign for deals? Everyone wants their kids on Facebook. Yea. Lol... More people share on YouTube than Facebook. You can make YouTube Videos Privates. But more cell phone users are on Feature Phones and if you want to share short video clips with people on dumb or feature phones you cannot depend on either Facebook or YouTube. That is the issue. The issue is not what you can do on your phone, or wha tyou prefer. The issue is the OS being designed in a way that limits communications with people who have not yet migrated to smartphone platforms... Do you understand it NOW?
Again, if your only retort is "I found the quality lacking," then you've defeated your own argument.
Tethering?
Mobile Hotspot?
What about better Exchange Policy support so Exchange Servers stop declining lots of WP7 devices from connecting to networks that iPhones and Symbian devices have no issues connecting to?
File System Support so we can use a File Manager and manage files on the phone? And more easily/faster bulk copy media of dispirate/varied types to the device?
Outlook Synching from Zune Client, and Documents? For those of us who do not have SharePoint/Exchange but don't want to put confidential contact information/documents in the cloud? For those who don't know... Windows Live (Hotmail - which shares the same base login for Live) has a bad history when it comes to Account hacking/hijacking.
A notification tray so that you can see what you got while you were asleep or your phone was silenced/put away (I'm talking beyond the Social notifications pane, which only covers stuff you can already see in the Facebook/Twitter app, etc.) without hopping into several applications? (swipe left from Home, App List. Swipe Right, Notification Cache).
Does the Video Camera settings save in Mango, at least?
Only loosely related, but it would be nice if they allowed us to suscribe more than one RSS feed in Windows Live...
DLNA support at the platform level, not just from specific phone models/OEMs? Every decent Android device has this, and the iPhone has AirPlay.
Turn by Turn is still pretty bad in Mango, and I think I've already mentioned it but I still can't get over the insane feature drop-off from WM to WP7 IRT Bing Maps... It's still borderline unbelievable to me...
Universal Search?
Has Codec support been expanded? If you email someone a WMV and their phone doesn't support that CODEC, well, too bad?
I can continue

N8ter said:
So, no. You can't do it. Apparently you can at least email them now, however...
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Click to collapse
You can't possibly be serious. Using the capabilities of a beta, that is not even close to feature complete, as proof that the finished release of the update won't include MMS video? That just boggles the mind.
N8ter said:
This is like telling a Mac user to buy a PC because I have Windows 8 Beta and it's awesome.
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Click to collapse
How so? I thought this thread was about WP7 users being "fed up" with the OS. Given that, it seems more to me like telling people who own a PC, but aren't very happy with Win7, to have patience because a new version of the OS is coming. That may or may not be good advice, but it is a more correct analogy.

MartyLK said:
That's the main reason I won't root my HTC Inspire 4G and customize it. I've been there with my HD2 and know where it leads. My Inspire currently is like a pristine, un-trampled, wilderness in all of its glory. It works perfectly and smoothly and causes me no troubles. The moment I were to root it, it would cease being the pristine glory it is because it would continually get altered and messed with instead of just using it for what it is.
I've been there with my HD2 and know how customizing works. This is one of the main reasons behind the locked nature of the iPhone. Apple would rather have people using the iPhone for what it is than continually altering it and potentially getting no satisfaction from it. MS apparently understands this as well. WP7 is just as locked as iOS and they really need to stick to their guns. There are those who want the choice to customize and that's fine. Android provides all they want. But some of them want every system to be made for them and only their way. They seem to not be able to cope with any system not being setup to their standards, regardless of how selfish they are being. They want it all and don't mind others not having any.
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I agree with you 110%. Android is open source and all about customizations, if you choose to do so. I know the GSII is coming to Sprint in August, but I'm not sure if I can hold back with all the power that device has. It runs quite well and the most I would do is underclock the phone to conserve my battery. I have fully customized my Evo, but I cannot sync my emails, my data has to be turned off, and I need a task killer all the time or my battery dies really quick.
With WP7, you don't need to worry about those features, and you get free applications *cough*. I mean, I hate having to go through all of the troubles to get these things to work properly, but I love the variety that I have.
WP7 runs sooo smooth and there is over 500 features being applied in Mango, and I really want simplicity and that beautiful UI.
What do you think is more important?

You know what, this is exactly what microsoft needs to do with WP

one sided promise from microsoft (re:updates) is pure fail. all parties should be brought onboard and each held accountable
http://www.engadget.com/2011/05/10/google-partners-with-oems-and-carriers-to-guarantee-android-upda/

Wow, I saw AT&T on the picture, I must relook at it.

It will never happen because all the OEM's and carriers involved seem to want Microsoft and WP7 to fail.

Look at the Zune hardware. My brother had a Zune since Day 1 and he got every update and new release from Microsoft, no problem. I don't think it's a Microsoft issue, I think it's a carrier issue.

Well, that announcement says Android phones will be supported for 18 months. It doesn't say updates will be instant, OEMs won't take weeks to develop ROMs and carriers won't take weeks "testing" them.

vangrieg said:
It doesn't say updates will be instant, OEMs won't take weeks to develop ROMs and carriers won't take weeks "testing" them.
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Click to collapse
if you read the live update, it says:
"12:34PM New guidelines! Man, this is going to be huge. Google's laying out a timeline for how long it'll take a device to get updated once a new build is let loose, as well as how long it'll be updated beyond that."

Google and Apple are both more powerful and influential in the mobile space than Microsoft right now. I don't think Microsoft is really in the position to dictate anything to anyone right now.

And what exactly are these guidelines? Three days for a new ROM from HTC with a new Sense on it?
I mean, this is great news for Android, but there's nothing so far that says anything real about what the update experience will be.
I know it's trendy to bash MS, but WP7 has seen four updates already. And the last one was cumulative, by the way.

I don't know, I have been receiving my updates when MS release them; other than the first one that took one or two weeks every other have been the same day (but I’m not in USA).

http://www.engadget.com/2011/05/10/google-clarifies-18-month-android-upgrade-program-details-far-f/
When pressed about how long it'd take updates to flow to phones after given the thumbs-up by Google itself, there's no hard news to report. In fact, the details there are still being hashed out.
To quote Google, "It's a logistics problem." We can only imagine. Trying to get every Android partner to follow a timeline for releases has to be a complete and utter nightmare, but the company seems certain that these stipulations won't cripple anyone's ability to innovate on their skins (or have too little time to make the needed changes).
We would've loved to hear a specific figure that we could start holding phone manufacturers to, but alas, it isn't to be. The only hard number thrown out today is 18 months. That's how long future hardware will be in the support cycle (at least, anyway), so you'll "soon" be able to count on your next Android device receiving all applicable updates for 1.5 years after purchase.

The guideline is yet to be hashed out. That's why they practically included everyone in the group to come up with a guide line. The only reason AT&T is included is because AT&T wants to make sure the final guideline doesn't put it in the spotlight again, like must release updates within 6 months of Google release That will never happen. I'm pretty sure the final guide line will be 12-month (from Google release the code and you see it on your phone), i.e. totally worthless and waste of time. Android is an open source platform, Google has no say about who can use the code and when they need to release the updates. The only thing Google can do is withheld Android market support.

And if they take longer than the set time frame? What happens?
Sent from my SGH-i917 using XDA Windows Phone 7 App

Nothing would happen. It is called guide line, not rules.

Well then, that'll really be a game changer then... /sarcasm
Where is the news in this?
Sent from my SGH-i917 using XDA Windows Phone 7 App

munkeyphyst said:
Well then, that'll really be a game changer then... /sarcasm
Where is the news in this?
Sent from my SGH-i917 using XDA Windows Phone 7 App
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There is none. FWIW MS has "guidelines" on updates as well, i.e. that carriers cannot block two consecutive updates.
-R

I smell a publicity fail from Google.

Well I have a wp7 and an android phone, I have to say there is no reason the OEMs cannot make their addtions such as the sense UI to be a replacement, that can be removed and updated seperately from the core OS. If they did that then it would allow for quicker updates.
In the past there were almost no updates done to phone other than small ones that were carrier specific (ie settings or patches) but major upgrades did not really happen. I would not be surprised if eventually updates to the phones to start costing money, much like a new version of OS X or a new version of windows does on a PC.

It's not a timeline.
It's just enforcing devices to be supported for 18 months.
It doesn't mean the manufacturers/carriers will have x amount of days after an android update to release said update. They can still release a phone with FroYo, and take 17 months to release gingerbread for that phone.
Also, it depends on whether the device's hardware supports the update and knowing Andorid manufacturers like HTC they'll just put a ROM chip too small to take any major updates in the phone, etc. Your Evo 4.0 can't support Sense 3.0? Good luck getting that update! HTC will not "downgrade" an Evo 4G from Sense 2 to Stock Android...
They are still trying to get the details panned out, but I'm not getting my hopes up. There are still phones out there sending SMS/MMS to the wrong contacts because the manufacturers don't even prioritize security updates for their phones (which, IMO, is a MUCH bigger issues than even large feature updates...). Android is a huge, hot mess when it comes to updates.

bill.g said:
Well I have a wp7 and an android phone, I have to say there is no reason the OEMs cannot make their addtions such as the sense UI to be a replacement, that can be removed and updated seperately from the core OS. If they did that then it would allow for quicker updates.
In the past there were almost no updates done to phone other than small ones that were carrier specific (ie settings or patches) but major upgrades did not really happen. I would not be surprised if eventually updates to the phones to start costing money, much like a new version of OS X or a new version of windows does on a PC.
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Are you a developer?
Those aren't themes. They're deep customizations many of which have access to parts of the system that would require a "normal" app to run with Super User permissions. You can't release much of that as an App in the marketplace... Not to mention, they would just end up getting pirated by everyone and at worse breaking a bunch of phones that weren't designed to run the software (freezing them, reboot loops, making them unbootable, etc.).
There's also the issue of drivers, because different manufacturers use dispirate hardware configurations with screens, SoCs, cameras, etc. from dispirate sources. Getting all of that to work on an update is MUCH harder than getting the skins functional.
You people (generally speaking) really think the skins are the issue? They are not. Android (specifically, Linux) is the issue. The skins are easy as hell. The latest Epic 4G Gingerbread Leak has a working TouchWiz, but most of the phone/smartphone functionality is broken. That's a great example on just how easy porting the skins form version to version is. Skins typically aren't that sensitive to kernal ABI changes - device drivers ARE.
The fact that Android is based on Linux by default ensures that updates will have issues because it inherits many of Linux's issues. A Windows Mobile 6.0 update could in many cases just reuse drivers developed for Windows Mobile 5.0the same way Windows 7 can use many Windows XP drivers without any issues.
Linux doesn't have this type of backward/forward compatibility. That's why those leaked updates often have close to nothing working on them (No Wifi, no calls, no this, no that, etc.). Linux doesn't have a stable ABI for driver developers. Kernel updates can break any and/or everything. This means that the turnaround for updates is much longer than it will be for something like WP7.
The biggest issue with Android is the fact that Manufacturers and Carriers do not even prioritize critical security updates, and Google seems intent on not patching and quickly propagating patches for exploits used to root devices. Which is nice for tinkerers, but can be an issue when a malware uses that exploit on someone's device to perform malicious actions...

N8ter said:
It's not a timeline.
It's just enforcing devices to be supported for 18 months.
It doesn't mean the manufacturers/carriers will have x amount of days after an android update to release said update. They can still release a phone with FroYo, and take 17 months to release gingerbread for that phone.
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I'm pretty sure they said timely updates. Which means they are going to work out some sort of guidelines on how long it takes for the updates to get pushed out. What that actually is remains to be seen though.

Windows Phone Mango released to manufacturing (RTM)

Seems Microsoft is moving full steam ahead we have RTM!!!http://wmpoweruser.com/windows-phone-7-mango-released-to-manufacturers-in-carrier-testing/

rruffman said:
Seems Microsoft is moving full steam ahead we have RTM!!!http://wmpoweruser.com/windows-phone-7-mango-released-to-manufacturers-in-carrier-testing/
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a subject already exist http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1170721&page=2
but great news for us

Well yeah at the end of August we will see the first new phones, but Microsoft always said that consumers will get Mango in the fall.
So it's nice to hear they have RTM'd, but September is already fall and with carrier testing and OEM testing I doubt will get it earlier.

slimshady322 said:
Well yeah at the end of August we will see the first new phones, but Microsoft always said that consumers will get Mango in the fall.
So it's nice to hear they have RTM'd, but September is already fall and with carrier testing and OEM testing I doubt will get it earlier.
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we can hope that got it earlier
http://www.wpcentral.com/ATT-dell-venue-pro-not-shipping-till-8-30-getting-mango-speculation

"fall" is only two months away, as of tomorrow. Just to keep things in perspective.
It seems reasonable to expect the testing and certification by phone manufacturers and carriers to take at least two months, which would be consistent with all of the timelines that have been "leaked" over the past few months. Many rumors indicated that Mango would RTM in July (which it has), and that new Mango-equipped hardware would begin to hit retailers by late August/early September (which also appears to be accurate - remember, no one ever said they would be available worldwide at that time).
Add in another month to complete manufacturer/carrier testing for existing devices, and deal with the logistical issues around preparing for the distribution, and people on reasonable carriers could easily start seeing the update on their phones in early October. People on AT&T will probably see it by June of next year.

Already reported by Microsoft themselves that Windows Phone 7 Mango has not RTM'd yet. Which is good IMO, because I'd rather them work on it as much as possible.

prjkthack said:
Already reported by Microsoft themselves that Windows Phone 7 Mango has not RTM'd yet. Which is good IMO, because I'd rather them work on it as much as possible.
Click to expand...
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it is now

http://windowsteamblog.com/windows_...ws-phone-mango-released-to-manufacturing.aspx

I'm going to hope (probably in vane) that the RTM is leaked onto the internets somehow. I've had minimal dramas with the mango beta, so I'd like to get onboard with the RTM ASAP.

Demaar said:
I'm going to hope (probably in vane) that the RTM is leaked onto the internets somehow. I've had minimal dramas with the mango beta, so I'd like to get onboard with the RTM ASAP.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
how will hoping you know about the direction of wind help mango leak?!
i will hope in vain as well, but maybe we'll get lucky and it will leak out (or even be released in short order)
wasn't that new toshiba phone msft is showing today/tomorrow supposed to be running mango?

prjkthack said:
Already reported by Microsoft themselves that Windows Phone 7 Mango has not RTM'd yet. Which is good IMO, because I'd rather them work on it as much as possible.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, it looks like you got more time. Only 4 days worth, but still...
Seriously, though, It seems obvious now that the code was already frozen when the original report "leaked", but that the hand-off to handset makers and operators was not complete. Now it is.
So, we are still on track (barring ridiculous manufacturer/carrier delays) to see people actually receive the update by late September/early October. And, if Nokia does have hardware ready to go (which seems evident), we may see Mango-equipped new phone models very quickly.

kinda news ?
i was expecting more today, like a NEW mango finalized device displayed somewhere..
is this only a rtm announcement ?
anyone know if there will be a 2 stage release to end users like nodo had to make carriers actually push updates to phones ?
...waiting for some hard news...

I'm hoping that I'll connect to Zune soon and see that an update is available. I'd like full Twitter integration in my Mango.

ohgood said:
anyone know if there will be a 2 stage release to end users like nodo had to make carriers actually push updates to phones ?
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I'm not sure what you're asking. All WP7 updates go through a certification process with both handset manufacturers and mobile operators. But neither of those entities "push" the updates to phones. Update delivery only happens through Microsoft (i.e., Zune).
So, what is happening now is that the other companies involved have received their copies of Mango for final testing and sign-off. They had likely already received earlier builds, so they could begin development of new features and/or apps (thanks to all of the new capabilities they might want to capitalize on), but now the clock is ticking on them. They complete the sign-off, send back to Microsoft any modifications they have made specific to their hardware or mobile service, and then Microsoft combines those into various bundles that ultimately get delivered to our phones.
The one exception to that rule is unbranded phones, which will probably receive the update before carrier-branded ones, since there is only one level of sign-off needed before the update can be made available.
The big question is whether Microsoft will be able to apply more pressure to carriers (especially AT&T) to sign-off in a timely manner. On this issue, let's just say that I have my doubts.
Out of curiosity, did we ever get a notice of the specific date that NoDo went RTM? I don't recall seeing one. Maybe the fact that Microsoft is being so vocal this time around is part of their plan to "motivate" carriers.

This is fantastic. Like others Im hoping someone leaks the latest build so XDA members can get their fingers dirty.

RoboDad said:
I'm not sure what you're asking. All WP7 updates go through a certification process with both handset manufacturers and mobile operators. But neither of those entities "push" the updates to phones. Update delivery only happens through Microsoft (i.e., Zune).
So, what is happening now is that the other companies involved have received their copies of Mango for final testing and sign-off. They had likely already received earlier builds, so they could begin development of new features and/or apps (thanks to all of the new capabilities they might want to capitalize on), but now the clock is ticking on them. They complete the sign-off, send back to Microsoft any modifications they have made specific to their hardware or mobile service, and then Microsoft combines those into various bundles that ultimately get delivered to our phones.
The one exception to that rule is unbranded phones, which will probably receive the update before carrier-branded ones, since there is only one level of sign-off needed before the update can be made available.
The big question is whether Microsoft will be able to apply more pressure to carriers (especially AT&T) to sign-off in a timely manner. On this issue, let's just say that I have my doubts.
Out of curiosity, did we ever get a notice of the specific date that NoDo went RTM? I don't recall seeing one. Maybe the fact that Microsoft is being so vocal this time around is part of their plan to "motivate" carriers.
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i don't know how to be more clear with my question.
i can't see att caring about what microsoft says about signing off. they aren't exactly pushing wp products, and could care less about an update that will -not- sell another contract/phone to existing customers. an iphone hardware update on the other hand, oh yes yes yes, they love that stuff.
i did see a couple of blog posts (via my android news aggregator) stating that there would be a mango hardware unveil today, along with the rtm statement. apparently, bloggers jumped the gun, again.
the rtm statement is really a non-news worthy event. "we released something to someone, so sometime soon you might have a something for your phone. maybe." really that's all it is.
now HARDWARE... that's something i can understand there being threads and news about. say, searay or whatever the supposed new SHIPPING device is, that's news.
anyway, back to my jonesing for new tech... maybe endgadget or someone has some cool news... rss update time

ohgood said:
i don't know how to be more clear with my question.
i can't see att caring about what microsoft says about signing off. they aren't exactly pushing wp products
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Click to collapse
Pushing products in a store and pushing updates to existing phones have nothing to do with each other. So I still don't understand your original question about carriers pushing the update to our phones. They don't push the update, Microsoft does.