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XDAsite: Please Stop Using the Word "FORA"- It's Ridiculous, Forced, NON-User-Centric
I just saw the post on the Portal Page reminding people about some rules of the site. That was good. However, in the midst of that good message was nomenclature that needs to be retired because it has long since fallen out of common usage all over the world. Please -- The site has finally modernized, can we please kick to the curb the silly, academic use of the word "FORA" and get real?
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Following in my grand tradition of my occasional ridiculous commentry at XDA, let me add this one:
In high school growing up, I tool two years of Latin language, so I am perfectly clear about the tecnically correct singular form of the word FORUM and the technically correct pluralized form of this LATIN term, FORA. Let me just add that I think it is patently ridiculous for anyone in the year 2010 to continue to buck the trend of ordinary people who have rejected that academic technicality long ago, and to just call it what it is: FORUMS.
Nobody but ridiculous academics uses the term FORA... Honestly, just think about it... It sounds more like the friendly bacterial flora in your digestive track that help break down foods and prevent you from having flatulence -- than it sounds like the natural sound for "our mutliple forums".
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Must we use such academic terms?
The whole point of "TOUCHSCREENS 2.0" -- was to bow to the USABILITY DESIGN principles of user-centric design. XDA-developers.com would still be using its old forum design, would still be rejecting Samsung, would still be rejecting Motorola, and Sony Erricson, and lastly would still be rejecting the iphone, if it maintained its head-in-the-sand approach of "we are who we are, if you want to play in our backyard, shut up, read the rules, read the FAQa, don't ask stupid questiosn, and wait a year before ever posting" -- which is the mentality that such regimented thinking like "Fora" comes from, in my view.
But wisely, the new site owners saw, correctly, the SEA-CHANGE of the industry that began when the iPhone's unquestionably superior FINGER-NAVIGABLE touchscreen interface put WM's tired old little 6-point checkbox interface you need to hit with a stylus to shame --- transforming the industry overnight. Sure, we could rightly complain about the lockdown system of the iphone and all it lacked -- a LOT -- and focus and hail the openness of WM and its accessibilty to DEVS to create the magic XDA-developers built its reputation on... But the fact is, the iPhone WOKE UP the industry -- and not a moment too soon.
It was RIDICULOUS to have to have the WM phone 6-8 inches away and have a stylus chained to your device in order to place a phone call or add a contact. HTC took cues immediately and for the next few years SAVED Microsoft's sweet ass by introducing TOUCH-FLO and doing all the UI layer changes that Microsoft (dumbass Ballmer) stubbornly refused to do because they were so ****-sure they were the leaders and no one could dethrone them.
Yeah. Until they were dethroned. Then they lost two whole years of selling as they faded from marketplace relevance. And I'm suggesting that that is what obsolescent and calcified thinking PRODUCES. Just carrying on old thinking processes because -- either (a) we've always done it that way, or (b) "we know best, we're in charge". Both are wrong and lead to consumer revolt.
Let's drop this ridiculous "FORA" usage. No one in the mainstream uses it, because it's ridiculous. Sure, you can find it at http://FORA.tv -- a fantastic service -- but that's their BRAND name, it's not their nomenclature for their forum structure. Say what you will, call them dumb, cal them uneducated, big deal: but the international consumer marketplace doesn't care one bit about Latin plurality rules. Nor should you, nor should we. Give it up and join the 21st century, please.
THE REST OF THE XDA SITE HAS. They modernized. They finally took queus from the world that had been passing them buy -- and modernized -- and in a short time -- way less than a year -- completely upgraded XDA with a smart portal news page, tied to twitter, etc. (great job svetius and writing team!)
And so to cling to that bygone era artifact seems silly. Dump it, and just get practical please. It's user-centric design. Users hate fora. Fora is silly. They use the word Forums. So should this site.
Thank you for your consideration!
Love,
quicksite
Wow, you seriously got some spare time. I've rarely seen such a long explanation and deliberation for such a simple and easy concern.
Becksman said:
Wow, you seriously got some spare time. I've rarely seen such a long explanation and deliberation for such a simple and easy concern.
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Yeah, and your point is what?
My profession is Usability design -- so it';s my profession -- not my spare time.
The difference between most people is this:
I have no interest in simply registering an opinion. That's what 99% of the world does in 140 twitter culture. I'm a chnage agent, That means if I take the time to write, it means I want it changed, I'm not merely flapping my gums.
Thanks for playing though.
Why does it matter how people want to refer to it? Stop caring.
Sent from my Epic 4g
Zeinzu said:
Why does it matter how people want to refer to it? Stop caring.
Sent from my Epic 4g
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Stop replying. Unsubscribe. Please go to games section or free downloads.
I second this.
I'm Brazilian, and "fora" means "out" for me =P
I guess all Internet users are used to the term "forums". In addition, in Portuguese, the plural of "fórum" (forum in English) is "fóruns" (we only use "m" before "p" or "b")
quicksite said:
Yeah, and your point is what?
[...]
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My point was, that you spend a lot of time cross-referencing to other areas where "progress" was made and the game changed, instead of focussing on reasons why the word "fora" is so "ridiculous, forced and NON-user-centric". I missed the development of the wheel though.
I get your point but I think you're way overexaggerating. Windows mobile would not have lost its market lead to the iPhone (or to Android now) if the only difference would have been the word "fora" on one device's display and "forums" on the others.
Cheers
(Now off to games and ringtones fora)
Holy Sh.. that's some free time o.0
Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk
Hi quicksite,
I just finished going over your opening post and truth be told, I see no problem whatsoever with the use of that term. Does it matter that the term is old? A big part of the English language has, as you correctly pointed out, Latin roots, which are old in the first place. The word is perfectly valid as it is, according to the following sites:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fora
http://oxforddictionaries.com/view/entry/m_en_us1248326#m_en_us1248326
http://www.britannica.com/bps/dictionary?query=fora
By contrast, your example was pulled out of Wikipedia. Truth be told, if I knew that the term was invalid or outdated, I would have edited the article before it was published. However, this is not the case. It isn't a matter of being old fashioned, conservative, reluctant to change, or anything like that. My writer used a term, which is accepted by all three world standards of the English language (above), and as such I have no problem with that. Likewise, if my writer would have used the word "forums", I would have still accepted it because it is also an acceptable term. Some people may not like the sound of it as you claim, but likewise, you will have people who think that the use of the word forums is not right, or simply doesn't sound right.
As far as your example of "Juiz de Fora", I am sorry but I fail to see how that is relevant to anything. The term is in Portuguese and it is the name of a city. As the member before me pointed out, the term fora means "outside" in Portuguese, but considering that the term we are looking at is in English, it is completely irrelevant.
Last but not least, the whole "iPhone revolutionizing the world" argument... not sure why you used that example as it is a little far fetched (conveys your point, but there are better analogies).
Please don't take this as an attack or anything like that. I am in charge of anything that goes in the Portal (as I edit every article), and because of that, I thought it would be best for me to explain this.
+1 on this ez
egzthunder1 said:
Hi quicksite,
I just finished going over your opening post and truth be told, I see no problem whatsoever with the use of that term. Does it matter that the term is old? A big part of the English language has, as you correctly pointed out, Latin roots, which are old in the first place. The word is perfectly valid as it is, according to the following sites:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fora
http://oxforddictionaries.com/view/entry/m_en_us1248326#m_en_us1248326
http://www.britannica.com/bps/dictionary?query=fora
By contrast, your example was pulled out of Wikipedia. Truth be told, if I knew that the term was invalid or outdated, I would have edited the article before it was published. However, this is not the case. It isn't a matter of being old fashioned, conservative, reluctant to change, or anything like that. My writer used a term, which is accepted by all three world standards of the English language (above), and as such I have no problem with that. Likewise, if my writer would have used the word "forums", I would have still accepted it because it is also an acceptable term. Some people may not like the sound of it as you claim, but likewise, you will have people who think that the use of the word forums is not right, or simply doesn't sound right.
As far as your example of "Juiz de Fora", I am sorry but I fail to see how that is relevant to anything. The term is in Portuguese and it is the name of a city. As the member before me pointed out, the term fora means "outside" in Portuguese, but considering that the term we are looking at is in English, it is completely irrelevant.
Last but not least, the whole "iPhone revolutionizing the world" argument... not sure why you used that example as it is a little far fetched (conveys your point, but there are better analogies).
Please don't take this as an attack or anything like that. I am in charge of anything that goes in the Portal (as I edit every article), and because of that, I thought it would be best for me to explain this.
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Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk
I almost forgot to add this. Under your arguments, words and expressions like laughing or "I will be back shortly" would be replaced by LOL and BRB, simply because they are more mainstream. Soon after that, you would have people asking for "cheezeburgerz".
Lol have to agree with Ez.
I'd put this down to too much time on your hands... maybe could be put to better use since XDA is a *development* Fora
Captainkrtek said:
Holy Sh.. that's some free time o.0
Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk
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As usual, all respondents are 2009/2010 -- have almost no sense of XDA culture other than gimme gimme gimme now, 140 tapatalk gotta go, life on the run
send from my implant device
Captainkrtek said:
Last but not least, the whole "iPhone revolutionizing the world" argument... not sure why you used that example as it is a little far fetched (conveys your point, but there are better analogies).
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Actually it makes perfect sense for those not "on the run with 140 character-count lifedrives"
Quite simply: XDA-devs was founded upon an HTC phone running WM; WM was the prevailing OS for long time; the bulk of the work here for years was focused on things like hard spl and getting hardware and software to do things never intended by the manufacturer -- which made the site great, gave it its reputation, and things churned along. ... Then the iphone came and changed a paradigm. A lot of resistence felt here on this site to the very idea of the iphone, but its influence was undeniable. It was fought and ignored tooth and nail by Ballmer and his old school thinkers tied to the past. Until they were swept in the destbin of history and a new model swept the world with finger-driven interfaces, hardware changes + OTA app store concept which overnight made -- for the mainstream, not the tinkerers at XDA -- WM 6.1 and 6.5 an obsolete concept for app-dev ...
The whole industry shifted around this new model -- and eventually that gravitational force was so strong even old fashioned "We liked out yellow skin" XDA-devs stepped up to the plate, threw out the old, and joined the new --- with a new front page way closer to engadget than old XDA would even have ever dreamed of allowing.
There is nothing obtuse about that analogy at al except for someone purposely being obtuse. It means -- dropping old relics and getting with the times. Nobody is saying "the word isn;t used in the english langauge" -- did I say that? No. I say mainstream. Just as XDA-devs has clearly revamped to appeal more to mainstream and if you doubt that, go have a coffee or beer with svetius, or take a look at that sister site.
I'm not looking for a fight either. I'm just making a strong advocacy point, and i don't like ha;lf-stepping it. There are always going to be little peanut gallery voices who have generally nothing to add other than mockery like "hah hah too much time on hands" like that really refutes or affirms anything. Might as well not post at all. These are just general forums after all . Look how silly it would look if I had said. These are just general fora afterall. People can post what they like.
But it seems rather juvenile and meaningless to bother to post to a thread where you have nothing to add... If anyone has too much time on their hands its someone who posts absolutely nothing of any value, just dittos, and more dittos, just tapping away from tapatalk, because it's so important you see to comment on how stupid the whole topic is. because then you see how smart they are and how ridiculous the poster is.
I think you're pretty silly to post about something you find a waste of time. They do studies about people like that.
But finally, regarding editorial style guides, Okay, I'm all for that. Then would you please, as of today, help make the site editorially consistent, applying your style guide: Here are some places you can start. Oh, it's the portal page, well that's easy, it's under your domain! Happy trails one and all !
Stirring Up ****e!
quicksite said:
As usual, all respondents are 2009/2010 -- have almost no sense of XDA culture other than gimme gimme gimme now, 140 tapatalk gotta go, life on the run
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Help me with your logic. You mention mainstream and getting with the times, but you also reference culture in a way that would indicate a reverence of past times. You also appear to loathe or hold some angst against the internet community (or people in general) in its present state by your usage of "140 tapatalk gotta go" as if people today do not get it or do not care.
Would we be better served keeping with the times or holding on to our history? On one hand you indicate the former, ("dropping old relics and getting with the times"), yet on the other you cling to the latter ("makes perfect sense for those not on the run with 140 character-count lifedrives" ).
I use forums, but I also accept the use of the word fora. One must always consider audience when speaking or (in this case) writing, so whomever the author considered when composing dictated his or her usage of the particular word currently debated.
Honestly, I do not understand your point. If either usage were incorrect, perhaps I could agree with your stance. Unfortunately, both ARE correct, and as such render your opinion moot. You are still entitled it, however pointless it may be.
-Internet Tough Guy
P.S. Let us be honest. Your iPhone argument is completely illogical. Some (see most) would consider it a logical fallacy. While I can see where you intended to relate your point, it was under served by your misuse of analogy. Also, forum registration date is not indicative of knowledge, experience, or expertise with xda, its history, or its culture (whether past, present, or future).
Wait a minute... Did I just get trolled? Doh.
quicksite said:
Actually it makes perfect sense for those not "on the run with 140 character-count lifedrives"
Quite simply: XDA-devs was founded upon an HTC phone running WM; WM was the prevailing OS for long time; the bulk of the work here for years was focused on things like hard spl and getting hardware and software to do things never intended by the manufacturer -- which made the site great, gave it its reputation, and things churned along. ... Then the iphone came and changed a paradigm. A lot of resistence felt here on this site to the very idea of the iphone, but its influence was undeniable. It was fought and ignored tooth and nail by Ballmer and his old school thinkers tied to the past. Until they were swept in the destbin of history and a new model swept the world with finger-driven interfaces, hardware changes + OTA app store concept which overnight made -- for the mainstream, not the tinkerers at XDA -- WM 6.1 and 6.5 an obsolete concept for app-dev ...
The whole industry shifted around this new model -- and eventually that gravitational force was so strong even old fashioned "We liked out yellow skin" XDA-devs stepped up to the plate, threw out the old, and joined the new --- with a new front page way closer to engadget than old XDA would even have ever dreamed of allowing.
There is nothing obtuse about that analogy at al except for someone purposely being obtuse. It means -- dropping old relics and getting with the times. Nobody is saying "the word isn;t used in the english langauge" -- did I say that? No. I say mainstream. Just as XDA-devs has clearly revamped to appeal more to mainstream and if you doubt that, go have a coffee or beer with svetius, or take a look at that sister site.
I'm not looking for a fight either. I'm just making a strong advocacy point, and i don't like ha;lf-stepping it. There are always going to be little peanut gallery voices who have generally nothing to add other than mockery like "hah hah too much time on hands" like that really refutes or affirms anything. Might as well not post at all. These are just general forums after all . Look how silly it would look if I had said. These are just general fora afterall. People can post what they like.
But it seems rather juvenile and meaningless to bother to post to a thread where you have nothing to add... If anyone has too much time on their hands its someone who posts absolutely nothing of any value, just dittos, and more dittos, just tapping away from tapatalk, because it's so important you see to comment on how stupid the whole topic is. because then you see how smart they are and how ridiculous the poster is.
I think you're pretty silly to post about something you find a waste of time. They do studies about people like that.
But finally, regarding editorial style guides, Okay, I'm all for that. Then would you please, as of today, help make the site editorially consistent, applying your style guide: Here are some places you can start. Oh, it's the portal page, well that's easy, it's under your domain! Happy trails one and all !
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Click to collapse
You are quoting the wrong person altogether. It wasn't Captainkrtek who said that you could have used a better analogy, it was me. If you would read the whole statement, you would have read that I didn't say that your analogy was wrong. I said it was a long stretch, but never said it was wrong.
Also, I never said that "Forums" was wrong either. What I did say was that "Fora" is a properly used term, and perfectly acceptable from where I stand. There is nothing wrong with using it interchangeably, so as both of these terms are acceptable, I will carry on as I was doing before reading your suggestion.
Finally, the join date has nothing to do with the replies you are getting. I am over 2 years your senior membership-wise, and while my replies are a bit more consistent than a simple "you are wasting your time", I will agree that you put a tremendous amount of effort on something that is not needed.
I am open to suggestions and discussions on things that will improve the Portal. I have never seen or heard of anyone complaining about this in my 5+ years of being a member in multiple fora (not just XDA, but many others as well). So, as this is not a crucial change or anything that will affect the usability or functionality of the site, I will take no action towards this. Thank you for the suggestion.
Man the people who frequent the fora here.
It seems their flavourite thing to do sometimes is to analyse the colour of the language in an effort to honourably be at the centre of the arguement. Its the internet, people use different language programme than others.
Wow, what an article. I must say though that I disagree with you. Just because it's the newest item doesn't mean it's what we should go with.
The english language (here in America) is becoming ridiculous to an extreme. To use a term like lol or brb is one thing but when people start typing phrases like 'lol @ u plz hlp me i peez my pnts' all I can say is WTF?? Or when people can't get it through their heads that '@' does not mean 'and' there's a symbol for that - &.
Some businesses are starting to do that stuff "OMG Huge sale, Stp by 2day" and various other forms. Is this what our society is coming to? Do I need to go buy a cypher just to decode teenybopper messages that are as insignificant as the brown thing I left in my toilet last night?
@quicksite lk omg wtf is fora
@fadman i dont nozzz o god hlp mezz plzzzz :.((
If you want to change something why not change the stupefaction of an entire language instead of promoting the expedition of it.
Don't you have people better things to do, rather than complaining about word 'fora' ? It's bad, yeah, but many here can't write or spell correctly.
Are you trying to get at the fact that you don't like the word "fora" instead of forums or forum?
If so, then you are the only person and the only thing i have read on this FORUM that has called this a "fora" or used the term "fora".
According to my mum, "fora" is a plural of "forum"
It can be applied like this:
"There are many different kinds of fora on the internet."
Or
"There are many different kinds of forums on the internet."
You can use either "fora" or "forum".
If the usage of the word "fora" instead of "forum" or "forums" annoys you, well that's just tough sh*t!
You can use either word and people can choose which on they want to use.
So there you go.
And i do have too much time on my hands
BTW: Its free will, people can say which ever word, and you can't change that.
So if your trying to, you have just failed.
BTW2: Someone should close this thread before a flame war starts.
What *is* it with The Inquirer? They seem to take every opportunity to bash WP7 - I've never seen them put in a single good word. How can journalism be so incredibly biased?
http://www.theinquirer.net
Do a search for "windows phone"...
Read any one of their miserable articles and you'll see what I mean - they're snide, sarcastic and dismissive and they take any chance to jump on the slightest bit of negative news, even quoting sales figures from marginal or unnamed sources.
It really is reporting at its worst.
Just as well they're only a bit-player in the IT news market. What ever happened to balanced view-points?
Rant over.
The comments underneath are even worse; one tiny, unknown, not reputable at all website doesn't sell many WP7 handsets, and all of a sudden, everyone is analysing "how MS failed" -__- Oh and I swear, the next person who types Microsoft as 'M$' is not going to appreciate the level of flame sent towards them -__- This mindless MS bashing just really needs to stop.
Exactly - the sources of all this so-called "Doom and Gloom" are such tiny bit-players that it actually makes me feel more confident about WP7, as no big-leaguers have released any bad figures yet.
Jim Coleman said:
Exactly - the sources of all this so-called "Doom and Gloom" are such tiny bit-players that it actually makes me feel more confident about WP7, as no big-leaguers have released any bad figures yet.
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Adds nothing and link to that site posted.
Closed!
From: http://www.winrumors.com/microsoft-...itterwp&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitter
“Many of you are making critical comments here which are certainly fair. First, I was wrong when I said “most people have received the February update.” There are many of you who have yet to receive it, and I don’t blame you for speaking up and pointing out my mistake. Second, I referred to our updates as “complete” because I was thinking of the internal process where we pass completed software to another group who delivers them – but of course no update is complete until you all have it. Plus, at the time I did the interview we had started the NoDo (“march update”) delivery process and I knew “it was going well” from our perspective: people were officially getting it, the success rate of its deployment on real-world phones was looking good, and we were happy that the process had STARTED well. Still—these are NOT the same as all of you getting it and I’m sorry that I came across as insensitive to that fact.
I am a very, very big advocate for all our end-users and developers, and it bothers me a lot if I sounded out of touch. I wasn’t as prepared for this interview as I should have been—I walked into the studio with an informal state of mind, thinking about MIX and what we WILL be talking about, and I didn’t have the right up-to-date information to give a good explanation on updates which I know to be a very high-interest topic right now.
I have read all of the comments here (and many of them on the other blogs) and so has pretty much everyone in our management team. We know it’s been frustrating to wait for features/fixes and (probably worse) to hear little from us on specific dates. We are sorry the process has been rocky. The “where’s my phone update” table is our first step to try to remedy this in the face of technical problems that have made our first wave of updates take longer than we expected. We know the table would benefit greatly from more detail, and we are hoping to add more to it by working with the Operators who own the “testing” phase to get more clarity. If your phone is shown in “scheduling”, it’ll be worth checking the table next week.
In the spirit of “MIX as a conversation” – I will make sure that when I show up in Vegas that I’m well prepared to give an update in person and to try to answer your questions as best I can. You folks are obviously a very important audience for us and it’s right for you to expect us to communicate and execute better. I know at this point it’s our actions that matter… The main thing we are trying to do is to get the updates out to everyone in a way that is reliable and works, and then make our process better and more transparent in the future.”
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awwwwwww im not mad at them anymore. vattay cutie
let's be real. I wasn't mad, but is this enough to shut the burn microsoft to the ground crowd away? I'm not sure...
Transparency is always better than non transparency.
It's really, really nice to hear that they know they have made it wrong. I love it. Everybody does.
But it would be better to hear that the update is going right, and we gonna receive it in the next few days.
mikeeam said:
It's really, really nice to hear that they know they have made it wrong. I love it. Everybody does.
But it would be better to hear that the update is going right, and we gonna receive it in the next few days.
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Admitting you were wrong doesn't make it any less wrong.
I'm through with them.
They had to admit after seeing all the comments pretty much everywhere online and from the bloggers. Here's where it started. http://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Coun...-Joe-Belfiore-Talks-Phone#c634367845660000000
N8ter said:
Admitting you were wrong doesn't make it any less wrong.
I'm through with them.
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+1
Fool me once........
I cannot accept it. My HD7 is non-brand and doesn't receive the NoDo update til now.
I don't rally care about excuses, and I am still pissed, and I have still not got the NoDo. However, I give MS some credit, since at least they show their customers they care by making statements like this, and admit everything is not always sunshine and cloudless skies. Compared to Crapple (Apple), who always denies- or don't say a word to their "customers" that they actually do **** up sometimes.
And that Joe Belfiore I really like, he seems to be the perfect guy as Director of Windows Phone 7. And he's funny to.
Halle said:
I don't rally care about excuses, and I am still pissed, and I have still not got the NoDo. However, I give MS some credit, since at least they show their customers they care by making statements like this, and admit everything is not always sunshine and cloudless skies. Compared to Crapple (Apple), who always denies- or don't say a word to their "customers" that they actually do **** up sometimes.
And that Joe Belfiore I really like, he seems to be the perfect guy as Director of Windows Phone 7. And he's funny to.
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Whatever Crapple says they deliver which is exactly why they are kicking everyone's ass whether you hate to admit it or are totally in denial. You give MS credit because they finally admitted after being cornered by WP7 users and had no way out BUT to admit it. It's like saying well let the bank robber go free because he at least admitted his crime. So you like Belfiore because he is funny and can entertain you? WOW!! Maybe MS should hire Jerry Seinfeld or (choose your favorite comedian) to be the Director of WP7. It's become a joke anyway so might as well hire comedians!
I respect Joe Belfiore for admitting his/Microsoft's mistake. But as that as for Eric Hautala, he is a complete joke.
Look at all the complains ppl have made over at Windows Phone Blog, hundreds after hundreds and he doesn't even stands up to say a single word.
What kind on a General Manager, Customer Experience Engineering is he???
f1restarter said:
Whatever Crapple says they deliver which is exactly why they are kicking everyone's ass whether you hate to admit it or are totally in denial. You give MS credit because they finally admitted after being cornered by WP7 users and had no way out BUT to admit it. It's like saying well let the bank robber go free because he at least admitted his crime. So you like Belfiore because he is funny and can entertain you? WOW!! Maybe MS should hire Jerry Seinfeld or (choose your favorite comedian) to be the Director of WP7. It's become a joke anyway so might as well hire comedians!
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I'm going off topic here, but..
Well yes, Apple deliver updates flawlessly. However, they totally deny any design flaws of their hardware in their products - witch cannot be fixed with software. The iPhone 3G/S, cracks everywhere on the plastic backside and it got tons of dust under the screen. Also, the Macbook cracks. The Iphone 4 antenna design flaw - very well known but Apple denies there is anything wrong. Their response is simply "don't hold it that way" and a short while after, they kick the responsible person for the antenna design out of the company, lol. I guess the guys at Apple is the real comedians.
Halle said:
Well yes, Apple deliver updates flawlessly.
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People seem to forget that Apple had growing pains with iOS as well and had major issues when they first started to push out version 3. When it all happened they just shrugged and kept quiet. At least MS acknowledges it, this is a step int eh right direction. Now they just need to move fast and fix it all or quit telling people when something is coming out.
N8ter said:
Admitting you were wrong doesn't make it any less wrong.
I'm through with them.
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Does this mean you'll be through with the wp7 found as well??? ;-)
Sent from my HTC HD7 using Board Express
Well hopefully they will get their **** together, and to get people happy may push out the mango update sooner?? Who knows.
Sent from my Defy
DaFlake said:
People seem to forget that Apple had growing pains with iOS as well and had major issues when they first started to push out version 3. When it all happened they just shrugged and kept quiet. At least MS acknowledges it, this is a step int eh right direction. Now they just need to move fast and fix it all or quit telling people when something is coming out.
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Yeah, even Apple make mistakes. And they don't admit. There is a lot of examples of that. Still, sooner or later, they fix it. And most of the time, sooner. And when they say that they have an update, well, I envy that, everyone is able to download and update their iPhones when they want, not when carrier want, or when it is available for you.
And yes, I didn't forget that Apple just handle one phone. With just one single phone they choose the way of the whole smartphone market. And they are good at that.
Let's not forget that they learn with their mistakes. And it is really nice.
Apple was able to release iOS update before schedule and a patch shortly after all through the same carrier that Microsoft has problem to push through, AT&T.
In my book, Microsoft dropped the ball big time. And they still have no clue how to fix this. Sorry to say, at this time Microsoft lost all the credibility to me for their ability to successfully push the WP7 platform forward. Yes, WP7 will still survive - in the form of millions of cheap, low end, low resolution Nokia phones that most of us simply don't care about.
I'd love to see MS show me otherwise. But I doubt it. Big corporations don't turn around quickly unless they have a strong leader. Steve B is simply a corporate bean counter, not a leader.
Halle said:
I don't rally care about excuses, and I am still pissed, and I have still not got the NoDo. However, I give MS some credit, since at least they show their customers they care by making statements like this, and admit everything is not always sunshine and cloudless skies. Compared to Crapple (Apple), who always denies- or don't say a word to their "customers" that they actually do **** up sometimes.
And that Joe Belfiore I really like, he seems to be the perfect guy as Director of Windows Phone 7. And he's funny to.
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They don't care. They just could not talk their way out of it. If they could, they would.
Apple supports their products, so I can give a flying crap what they say. I don't care what a company says, I care what they actually do.
Halle said:
I'm going off topic here, but..
Well yes, Apple deliver updates flawlessly. However, they totally deny any design flaws of their hardware in their products - witch cannot be fixed with software. The iPhone 3G/S, cracks everywhere on the plastic backside and it got tons of dust under the screen. Also, the Macbook cracks. The Iphone 4 antenna design flaw - very well known but Apple denies there is anything wrong. Their response is simply "don't hold it that way" and a short while after, they kick the responsible person for the antenna design out of the company, lol. I guess the guys at Apple is the real comedians.
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WP7 has poor reception issues, which is worse than Antennagate because for an iPhone all you needed was a bumper or a case. You can't fix the poor reception in WP7 devices so easily.
I routinely get 3 bars in an HSPA+ market where my Vibrant has 5 bars and a 3.3+ mbps download speed. Call quality is noticeably worse (not even comparable, TBQH) and download speeds are much slower. I know one other person with an HD7 and he said "the phone is okay, but the call quality is ****."
http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/...ng-focus/5b7bc221-2982-4813-95f1-a8c88bfd2e86
http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/...software/cf6cb222-7fe7-4c0c-92c0-357bf4cc44d1
Also, the HD7 exibits the same issue as the iPhone 4, except it has poorer reception/signal quality overall:
http://www.gsmdome.com/htc/htc-hd7-antenna-problems-explained-by-companys-spokesman_20065
Focus, Omnia 7, HD7 (I experience the bad signal quality personally). I'm willing to bet the issue is Microsoft's coding, and not the hardware. WP7 makes a worse phone than the iPhone, and a worse Smartphone than pretty much anything barring some feature phones.
Dunno where the Apple hate is coming form, but clearly some people only count the negatives of the platforms they don't like. Microsoft's handling of WP7 is making Apple look like a champ.
nrfitchett4 said:
Does this mean you'll be through with the wp7 found as well??? ;-)
Sent from my HTC HD7 using Board Express
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Maybe if you learned how to write cohesive and comprehensible statements I'd be able to answer that.
You're not from out of the country, so there's no excuse for your inability to do so...
Siri cracked to work on Android, WP7!
Is there anyone here that would like to tackle this?
JamesDax said:
Siri cracked to work on Android, WP7!
Is there anyone here that would like to tackle this?
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interesting read, would be a cool homebrew tool to have
I am sure that there would not be to much code to handle but you would require an iphone 4S for the use of the application as every request is bound to your iPhones UUID and Apple will much likely ban the UUID if it is used on somewhat, lets say 1000 devices
Massacre aunt moffet thanksgiving steering the gulf war approximate deliberation pain quest.
This message sent to you by microsoft windows phone seven point five siri-like live beta
ohgood said:
Massacre aunt moffet thanksgiving steering the gulf war approximate deliberation pain quest.
This message sent to you by microsoft windows phone seven point five siri-like live beta
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muahaha lol great
Am i the only one that doesn't care about siri? Other than showing off to other people, what use does it have?
I admit the reminder feature is pretty efficient but other than that, why can't you press the search key and type your question?
especially since you're probably going to have to ask your question multiple times for it to get it right.
Nah, lets not. Not interested in that feature at all.
karan1203 said:
Am i the only one that doesn't care about siri? Other than showing off to other people, what use does it have?
I admit the reminder feature is pretty efficient but other than that, why can't you press the search key and type your question?
especially since you're probably going to have to ask your question multiple times for it to get it right.
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Stupid name too (siri). Same with iPhone, iPad, isuck, etc. 90% of the itards probably don't even know what the i means.
Sent from my Windows Phone Mango Focus using Board Express
Not impressed
I actually got to play with siri on a friends iPhone yesterday and I was really not that impressed, its cool and all but it couldn't pick up certain nick names in contact lists that my WP7 could (we have common friends so some of our contacts match)
There are other things its clearly superior at, but for me at least I use the speech to text function for work while driving and I need it to be accurate or I will be ripping my hair out.
I'm confused - I thought Siri was just a copy of the voice commands already available on Android and WP7? That's what I keep hearing - that is doesn't add anything new, it's just a rip-off, it doesn't work well, our voice commands work better anyway etc etc.
So what exactly is the point of porting it?
The "new" Features are that Siri is a chatbot combined with Voice Recognition Software. You can ask siri if you would need an umbrella and it interprets that question as "will it rain today", checks up the weather for your Location and tells you that it wont rain trough the sentence lets say "no, you can safely let your umbrella at home."
There also is the fun part of it - that most chatbots do have aswell. If you ask Siri if it wants to marry you, it will tell you that its single user license does not allow marriage or partnership with human beeings.
Thats all the fuzz about it
It's the chatbot function that I'm intrested in. I like the idea of the device understanding your input and responding intelligently. I know it's just fluff but I like fluff so sue me. lol
As far as voice recognition and speech to text functions I'm perfectly happy with what WP devices can do.
As far as i need, i'd add the "navigate to somewhere" voice command only in order to start either bing maps or 5$ navigation turn by turn app
suoko said:
As far as i need, i'd add the "navigate to somewhere" voice command only in order to start either bing maps or 5$ navigation turn by turn app
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Here is my social observation for the day:
It is amazing when we watch SciFi movies that depict a society where man interacts with machine on a personal level and we leave with a sense of disbelieve remarking "oh, that would never happen!" only to see it unfold in our society today.
Fifteen years ago if you wanted to get into contact with someone you called them on the telephone. The telephone was the natural progression to sending a written message, whether it be by carrier pidgeon or US Postal Service. Facebook chat is not a natural progression. Yes, it is more efficient, but if we were all about efficiency we would never be taking reading material into the restroom. We would not spend 4 hours inside a building, playing terrible music at deafening volumes, paying $6 for watered down alcoholic beverages to meet what is likely to be an incompatible mate.
Why on earth would someone prefer to say "Do I need my Umbrella today?" as opposed to simply saying "Weather" or clicking on the weather icon/app/widget? Are we so distance from human interaction that we need to make friends with our phones?
Life must really suck when the highlight of the day includes asking a phone for a good knock-knock joke.
Because "Do I need an umbrella today?" is more natural than yelling "Weather" at someone. Saying just "Weather" is jerky and weird. Saying "Siri, weather" might make more sense in public since someone will most likely understand you are talking to your device. But we are encouraged to not prelude with "Siri", we are encouraged to talk to it like a human, because it's what we already know.
Exactly. People tend to think in conversational thought fragments, even when not speaking. The appeal of Siri is that you don't need to make any conscious distinction between how you naturally think and speak, and the command syntax required by the device. They are one and the same.
Sorry if that "sucks" for some people but, well, that's life.
karan1203 said:
Am i the only one that doesn't care about siri? Other than showing off to other people, what use does it have?
I admit the reminder feature is pretty efficient but other than that, why can't you press the search key and type your question?
especially since you're probably going to have to ask your question multiple times for it to get it right.
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Click to collapse
It has a lot of use. You obviously have not used it for any decent amount of time, or been around someone who does.
Also, Siri's voice recognition accuracy is beyond what preceeding offerings provided. It uses the best of Nuance.
While I think it's a "cool" feature, I wouldn't see myself using full sentences with my phone. The reason I love WinPhone so much is because of the ease of one glance, one word ("answer"/"ignore") and easy search. Though, having an option of both worlds would be great, if TellMe acted identically to Siri, you'd be seeing greatly different reactions here, and I mean towards the negative spectrum.
I have to agree with nick in that I prefer to say "Weather" or "WeatherLive" than to have to ask questions. I currently answer my phone with my voice, I honestly don't care if I look crazy to my surroundings lol. Siri, while amazingly cool because it brings HAL into your world, is more of a marketing ploy than an actual feature, like having it say it was at the spa when the servers disastrously crashed. There was a thread that made comparisons to Kinect when it came out, and people criticized Kinect because it did the same thing (or was capable of it) but used short-words rather than a conversation approach, which I thought was crazy.
(remove offensive quoted material)
RoboDad, my attempt at humour may have been misplaced; I did not intend to offend. The Apple ads are portraying the iPhone as a companion, just like Fiya is suggesting. When a phone becomes a companion then I believe we have extreme societal issues. I already believe the social networking era is a plague.
I get the point about naturally speaking to the phone to simulate regular conversation, but for the exact same reason I do not want to have to say "I'm making a left turn at the next intersection" to have my car turn on the appropriate indicator light, is the exact same reason why I do not want to say "Precious, will I be able to play golf on saturday?"
Is there substance in asking a phone to marry its user? Or if one needs an umbrella? Is asking for an umbrella vs what the weather is like (so rain is the only type of inclimental weather?) an effective question?
Android - Swipe to unlock. Look at weather widget. Oh I need an umbrella.
Windows Phone - Swipe to unlock. Look at weather tile. Oh I need an umbrella.
Seems to me like its another play with your phone addon. If someone wants a phone that they can socially interact with autonomously then Siri makes sense. To me the idea is nonsense.
And how am I supposed to start a conversation with the pretty girl in the sexy jogging outfit that does laps in the park every morning at 5:30am while I am on the bench drinking a beer?
"Think it will rain tomorrow?"
"Go ask Siri you creep!"
''go ask SIRI, you creep...''
What's all the hype with SIRI? How come this feature ( really old) became mother of all trolls in one overnight?
The big step everybody is praising is not the IoS but the Apple servers that do the ''contextual'' recognition. The app itself just relays some bits to the servers...and articulates the answer back to the iEars...
Afaik, FBI and Homeland Sec had this contextual recognition running for millions of calls a decade ago...just like XP Tablet Edition was running then, InkSeine -from MS also- had gestures in 2006.
Siri is just the latest item on the ''newly invented, breaktrought, blah-blah-blah'' list, preceded by out-of-this-world ( some prefer to call them miracles) features: touchscreen, swipe-to-unlock, camera on the phone, front camera on a phone, videocall, 3G,....
Well, nothing like a stroll through memory lane every once in a while.
To get things started here is an article talking about Siri useage. This is an interesting exact from the article:
"Making phone calls and sending text-messages are the most popular activities, according to the report, a sign that Siri usage is mirroring how people use their phones more generally. Roughly a third of 4S owners use Siri to place phone calls, send text messages, or look up information daily or almost daily."
In other words, people are using Siri to do what every Android and Windows phone does, and does quite well already.
Now to go back to this thread titled "Windows phone lost another to Siri".
So, let us face it... Android and Windows Phone have voice recognition software that can accomplish exactly what most people are using Siri to do right now. The rest is fluff. I know I went on record saying I can see why someone would want to say "Call John" but I cannot for the life of me see the point in some of the other "Knock Knock... Who is there?" things.
If everyone rode their bike straight from home, to work, and back home... we would never have learned backflips are possible.
Thank goodness for some fluff in life.
ohgood said:
If everyone rode their bike straight from home, to work, and back home... we would never have learned backflips are possible.
Thank goodness for some fluff in life.
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Okay, let us run with the analogy. Why then are people in that thread somehow trying to paint the picture that backflips are an important and useful part of riding a bike?
If you read through that thread (you made some appearances in there) some people believed Siri was the greatest thing ever. Backflips certainly are not the greatest thing to happen to bike riding...
I said it before and I will say it again, Siri as advertised is a gimmick.
Call ohgood = useful
Open program = useful
Interacting with your phone like it is your best buddy = slightly disturbing.
nicksti said:
If you read through that thread (you made some appearances in there) some people believed Siri was the greatest thing ever. Backflips certainly are not the greatest thing to happen to bike riding...
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I got this at least 3 times.
Continuing the analogy..
I asked 3 different people riding different coloured but the same bike "How did you end up spending so much money on your bike?"
The answer I got, though worded differently by each rider, can be summerized as "Because I can do backflips all the way to work and then also when I go back home, I do backflips after backflips".
the point that you guys don't see: People love to own stuffs that they don't even use them regularly. They just love to have them so if they need them (and probably never) they can use it. It is just a common thinking of people.
I know some people who just use phone for calling and texting only, and they have an Android Smartphone just to make some calls and send some message a day... And they are so proud of their phones because they have thousand of apps (i hardly ever see they use more than 3 apps) and ... fast...
It is just like money, some people really live to save up big money and hardly ever buy anything which is not necessary. It is just a good feeling when you have a lot of money in your pocket, same with the functions of siri.
Or just like me, who hardly ever have to drive around, feel terrible because my phone can't acquire the GPS signal to track down where i am . So you can't really blame people for that. lol.
Strike_Eagle said:
the point that you guys don't see: People love to own stuffs that they don't even use them regularly. They just love to have them so if they need them (and probably never) they can use it. It is just a common thinking of people.
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I understand what you are saying and take your point. Just remember I am have no problem with people wanting something they are not going to use. My issue here is not with the average consumer, it is with the technically inclined people who defended Siri as something that would somehow change the way people interact with their phones.
So far touchscreens have changed the game times over what Siri has done.
No contest: Siri all the way.
I used a test phone at a best buy, and it picked up my voice saying "make me an appointment for Tuesday at 2pm". No problem at all.
I can barely get TellMe to properly display "are you coming home". Takes like 4 tries.
nicksti said:
Okay, let us run with the analogy. Why then are people in that thread somehow trying to paint the picture that backflips are an important and useful part of riding a bike?
If you read through that thread (you made some appearances in there) some people believed Siri was the greatest thing ever. Backflips certainly are not the greatest thing to happen to bike riding...
I said it before and I will say it again, Siri as advertised is a gimmick.
Call ohgood = useful
Open program = useful
Interacting with your phone like it is your best buddy = slightly disturbing.
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Click to collapse
(i rarely go back and read old threads, so i'll trust there was fun stuff there)
of course, a lot of the usefulness will depend on the user and the commands given. user input will dictate just how useful any application is. backflips, triple backflips, or just a blind man getting to 'drive' to taco bell.
the creativity that is possible, or requests posed to the maker of the app may do something revolutionary. maybe.
ohgood said:
(i rarely go back and read old threads, so i'll trust there was fun stuff there)
the creativity that is possible, or requests posed to the maker of the app may do something revolutionary. maybe.
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It went on for 11 pages so you can bet it was a barrel of monkeys It was more or less a debate about Siri with some people being skeptical (me), in the middle, or totally swimming in the koolaid river.
My fundamental problem with Siri being used as an effective method of interacting with a phone is the effort outweighs the action. I share this same skepticism with using a kinect + windows 8 as a method of navigation (a keyboad and mouse just is a better tool).
Anyway, it is clearly a user preference thing. Some people will make it useful and fit into their lives. I can't help but think Siri is Apple's way of sticking with a crappy static UI instead of going with a more dynamic one that can display more information on the home screen(s).
I don't know if this is still true, but the last time my sister and I compared her iPhone 4s to my WP7 is that hers can't read a messages and reply using hand free. I use tellme when I need as little or no hand interaction with my phone, like driving. If this is still true, this is where tell me trumps siri....reason my sister has WP7 envy.
Anyone use Ask Ziggy in the Marketplace yet? Supposed to be similar to Siri.
I use Tellme to send texts, and my friends (all of them, ha ha) have Siri. While we do the same things with them, I have noticed they have higher accuracy with the voice to text than I do. I've held an iphone side by side to my focus and said a message to both at the same time. Siri gets it right while my focus misses a few words. The added functionality of Siri doesn't matter a bit to me because I'd never use it, but when I try to send a message saying "yes ma'am" to my mom and Tellme decides to send "yes mammoth" it makes for a righteous laugh but also shows room for improvement.
Is TellMe a separate app than the one that is voice recognition built into the Messaging App?
uptempo777 said:
Is TellMe a separate app than the one that is voice recognition built into the Messaging App?
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No, TellMe is the built in one.
reminds me of a time when my friends and i were comparing Siri and TellMe, neither could send a message properly without 4/5 tries. maybe the phone don't do asian accents too well XD
but recently it's gone a lot better on my phone, imo
---------- Post added at 12:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:33 AM ----------
uptempo777 said:
Anyone use Ask Ziggy in the Marketplace yet? Supposed to be similar to Siri.
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it's slow and inaccurate, good fun though
I'm not a siri hater (I think it's really neat) but I can't stop laughing when Stern tries to use it on his radio show and it fails at EVERYTHING he tries. It must not understand his voice well or something. He hates the damn thing.
grimchicken402 said:
... but when I try to send a message saying "yes ma'am" to my mom and Tellme decides to send "yes mammoth" it makes for a righteous laugh but also shows room for improvement.
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The thing about TellMe, and Siri (I'm sure), is the tone of voice and sound matter. I speak quickly, so my device doesn't quite get what I say. But, when I'm a bit more sing-songy, it works much better. Let the tones move up and down with the words.
When saying "yes, ma'am" to my Lumia 800 right now, I got "yes maam" as what it captured. Not too bad.
anseio said:
The thing about TellMe, and Siri (I'm sure), is the tone of voice and sound matter. I speak quickly, so my device doesn't quite get what I say. But, when I'm a bit more sing-songy, it works much better. Let the tones move up and down with the words.
When saying "yes, ma'am" to my Lumia 800 right now, I got "yes maam" as what it captured. Not too bad.
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And it is a bad thing if you have to move away from your natural speaking manner in order to get what you need done. I believe there is a place for certain interactions, where these inputs are best suited.
A keyboard and a mouse is best suited to complete a majority of tasks on a personal computer as it is designed now.
Touch (and multitouch) inputs work best in a flat architecture where the user wants to expand a selection. For example a grid of icons on a screen where these icons take you to your final destination (launching a game). Touch inputs really fall down when you take several steps towards a destination, or have to drill down to get what you want, for example start -> documents -> tax returns 2012 -> open excel sheet.
This is how I feel about voice control. Too much work to complete certain functions.
nicksti said:
And it is a bad thing if you have to move away from your natural speaking manner in order to get what you need done. I believe there is a place for certain interactions, where these inputs are best suited.
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I disagree in that how we speak absolutely matters. This technology is still pretty new. And the one variable is that few people speak the same way. How good are the softwares at recognizing how we 'mispronounce' things? Take the Siri "Rock God" commercial. The guy on HuffPo who was attempting to debunk the ad didn't use the same diction as the kid did.
The kid clearly stated Rock God. Two separate sounds. The first ending with the same consonant sound that the second begins with. The debunker actually glottalizes the phrase. He closes his gottis on the "ck", so never actually produces the consonant. This is covered by the fact that the second word begins with nearly the same sound as the first ends. So, he gives us "Rockod". This is two sounds combined into one with only a single consonant sound to separate them, when the correct speaking requires two hard sounds.
Also, inflection matters. Given that the English language is based on consonants and hard sounds to close our words, we overlook a lot of the tones/inflections that are always present. Speech recognition needs some of that, I think, to better understand what is being said.
Lastly, all of these types of conversations remind me of a book I read by Jonah Lehrer, called Proust was a Neuroscientist. He breaks down how many artists of their era and modality actually predated matching science. Gertrude Stein, for example, liked to break down language. He mentions her line "a rose is a rose is a rose". She's not talking about roses. She's making the sounds and reorganizing them:
"a rose is a rose is a rose"
"a rose isa rose is arose"
"a roses a rose..."
So, "isa" is a sound, but what does it mean? hehehe
Given the complexity of linguistics and speech recognition, and how quickly I speak, I'm willing to make concessions to help TellMe be more successful in correctly guessing my words. A little more use of tone and proper word start/stops go a long way.
Let's give the tech a few more generations before we start moaning about it. It's not Dragon, after all.
uptempo777 said:
Anyone use Ask Ziggy in the Marketplace yet? Supposed to be similar to Siri.
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I just downloaded it a few days ago. Initial tests were not terribly impressive. Maybe I just don't know how to ask it things the right way. Often it seems to get a few key words and just starts rambling incoherently. I need to spend more "quality time" with it before I decide whether to keep it or not.
What has your impression been?
D