Just to repeat myself about "tombstoning" and how it can represent multitasking as most people think of it, this article gives you an idea:
http://www.clr-namespace.com/post/Windows-Phone-7-Multitasking.aspx
Oh wow... so we can have (inaccurate) stopwatches "running" in the background on WP7? Great!
So, when I build a satellite navigation app, I set up a tombstone when the application is closed and when it's reactivated, I can calculate where the user is, because I knew where he was and how fast he was driving when he closed the app?
Awesome!
(oh and of course I don't take any responsibility for car accidents caused by my app - blame Microsoft or the idiots who said multitasking isn't needed when you got tombstones!)
You know, you would just use GPS for that
Yeah because usually it takes 0.000001 seconds to get a GPS fix!
Awesome!
Wait..... but how is my app supposed to give directions when it's closed? Hm, maybe not so awesome after all...
Satellite navigation is one of the most important things a smartphone must do and it sucks with WP7.
And have you heard that most of the mobile web traffic is porn, Pandora and Youtube?
WP7 does none of those three things! No Youtube, no Pandora, no porn... (don't know why people want porn on their phones, but I understand the Youtube part).
Seriously, how many moronic defenses can you fanboys come up with? This OS will be an even bigger failure than Kin if Microsoft doesn't change directions fast!
How are your application supposed to give directions if you're not using it?
I don't have a device to test with but I doubt it takes long for an app to get a fix. The OS probably keeps the GPS somewhat hot. Remember, Bing uses it when you search so they don't want it taking forever either.
And Bing has Satnav. Yea, I'm sure some will want a 3rd party solution but for most people, the FREE included nav will be just fine.
Fermat said:
Yeah because usually it takes 0.000001 seconds to get a GPS fix!
Awesome!
Wait..... but how is my app supposed to give directions when it's closed? Hm, maybe not so awesome after all...
Satellite navigation is one of the most important things a smartphone must do and it sucks with WP7.
And have you heard that most of the mobile web traffic is porn, Pandora and Youtube?
WP7 does none of those three things! No Youtube, no Pandora, no porn... (don't know why people want porn on their phones, but I understand the Youtube part).
Seriously, how many moronic defenses can you fanboys come up with? This OS will be an even bigger failure than Kin if Microsoft doesn't change directions fast!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well Flash is coming to the phone just after launch so that will solve your Youtube/Porn issue.
Windcape said:
How are your application supposed to give directions if you're not using it?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It allows you to continue using your turn-by-turn GPS while conducting a phone call
Windcape said:
How are your application supposed to give directions if you're not using it?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
By giving voice guidance in background, for example.
RustyGrom said:
I don't have a device to test with but I doubt it takes long for an app to get a fix. The OS probably keeps the GPS somewhat hot. Remember, Bing uses it when you search so they don't want it taking forever either.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
When you search you don't need GPS, cell tower location is sufficient. Not so for driving. That cell tower location data helps to get the initial fix faster in modern devices, but still it's not instantaneous, which is a problem when you get an incoming phone call while using satnav in areas you don't know well. Otherwise, of course the OS doesn't (and shouldn't) keep GPS on. iOS 4 will keep it on while you're running satnav apps. WP7 won't.
RustyGrom said:
And Bing has Satnav. Yea, I'm sure some will want a 3rd party solution but for most people, the FREE included nav will be just fine.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, that will depend on where you live and where you travel. Bing Maps has horrible coverage worldwide. Apart from that, online satnav apps are an absolute taboo while roaming, you'll end up with thousands of dollars in your bill.
I think that incoming call doesn't suspend your app, the app will be allowed to keep working on foreground.
Also, GPS fix (cold) takes about 20s on my TP2, warm is instant . (Depends on if I have downloaded QuickGPS data though, but that's why I have data plan for.)
Funny how things change. When Apple did this it was the end of the world. Microsoft does it, its great, it's a new direction. Funny
vetvito said:
Funny how things change. When Apple did this it was the end of the world. Microsoft does it, its great, it's a new direction. Funny
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
when I had a iphone when I switched apps they didnt pause I had to start over when I returned to it, on wp7 it pauses it so in most cases its the best way to do it..it helps save battery while still being able to what you need to do. very few apps need to run in the backgroud besides GPS & streaming apps, once MS gives access to those apps that need to run in the background then yes it will be a great new direction. for now i dont mind it, i dont use Pandora & even on my tp2 when i use GPS i keep it on screen so i can do without it until they add it
Yeah pretty much like IOS4...
My problem with the iPhone's lack of multitasking wasn't so much with background running as with the fact that there's no easy way to switch between applications (namely, the incoming call while using satnav scenario, which is a major PITA in iPhone's case). I just need to minimize the dialer and keep using navigation. If that's handled (and it is in WP7's case) then the only issue is getting the fix again. Quite frankly, I find the recent iOS approach optimal for most cases, apart from the fact that it only has one button and an ultimately crappy task switcher. WP7 will allow me to go back to satnav with one tap of the Back button, so that'll work.
For other, more rare cases than those covered in iOS 4, I would really struggle to find real-life scenarios where a background process would really need to consume CPU cycles all the time (i.e. actually run). WM has a set of APIs called SNAPI, where background processes simply "register" for certain events and work only to process them. That can be done so that it won't really hurt either battery life or performance.
For the most rare cases where programs actually do need to run in background - well, I see lots of reasons why those can be really restricted, but, like with native APIs, MS could actually make exceptions in certain cases without allowing them by default - at least I would certainly agree with such a policy.
Maybe all this will be done with time, they never said multitasking won't be implemented, they'll just need to think about how to approach it better.
I personally think that lack of multitasking may be a problem, but it's actually the least of my worries with this OS. Much more relevant and serious issues are lack of c&p and lack of ways to register applications as system-wide filetype handlers. These are real bummers (apart from miserable language support and marketplace coverage of course).
vetvito said:
Funny how things change. When Apple did this it was the end of the world. Microsoft does it, its great, it's a new direction. Funny
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Except iOS didn't have a "pause" API from vanilla. They introduced something like tombstoning in iOS 4.
Windcape said:
Except iOS didn't have a "pause" API from vanilla. They introduced something like tombstoning in iOS 4.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They did, since the OS 2 release in 2008
In WP7 there's an Application_Deactivated event fired when the user is leaving the app, in the iPhone pre-iOS4 the event function was called applicationWillTermimate but the purpose was exactly the same : allowing the developper to save data before the app shutdown. Some apps were implementing it before iOS4.
In iOS4, the OS save the application state when you leave it (pretty much like Windows hibernation), whereas in WP7, the developper has to do some work to support tombstoning (and i'm not sure all of them developpers will)
I just hope that, when they support background running services API, the task manager won't be as lame as Apple one, showing programs that aren't even running...
My 2 cents
@kooled: Ah, my iPhone knowlegde is flawed then. Thanks for the clarification.
I think we can expect to see a background-service API, once they figured out how to design one that prevents from the phone lagging out entirely, like all Android phones does these days.
Android have taken over Windows role as the OS that requires constant restarts
Windcape said:
Android have taken over Windows role as the OS that requires constant restarts
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That is really funny - it looks like you really believe these fantazies.
It's a really stable OS.
Fermat said:
And have you heard that most of the mobile web traffic is porn, Pandora and Youtube?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you need porn on your mobile device I suggest you better get a girlfriend
I think it's only US people who care about Pandora since it's not offered over here in Europe. Hey and we are all still alive over here even without it
Anyways: A Pandora app IS being developed, they were called out as a partner (see http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/15/microsoft-announces-windows-phone-7-series-dev-partners-sling/ ).
I think they might be able to integrate into the Zune hub and use the zune player API too.
The difference between the 2007 iphone and 2010 wp7 not having c&p and multitasking, is that when asked Apple's response was that you didn't need it, and Microsoft's response is that it's done not yet.
Related
Seeing as WP7 will be almost as crippled as the iPhone, let's see ways in which it will be better, besides replaceable battery and memory card(and it's not certain every OEM will follow up on those either). So far it has two weaknesses that only the iPhone has: Lack of multitasking and apps must go through the marketplace.
In order to pick up iPhone users it will have to offer some advantage that the average iPhoner will notice.
Some advantages:
Information at a glance a la today screen with the hubs. iPhone has nothing like this.
It will (supposedly) have some degree of multitasking.
Two more hardware buttons.
Its funny since I've had my HD2 I've not really used multitasking and when I had my iPhone only not being able to use Spotify in the background bugged me so maybe certainly for me multitasking isn't a be all and end all.
Having read lots of stuff about WP7S, the conclusion I have come to is this...
There will be two types of apps
1. Apps with no need to run in the background
2. Apps that do need to run in the background
Examples of type 1 are games, spreadsheets and word processors.
Examples of type 2 are IM apps like palringo, and music streaming services such as pandora.
What will happen is that when you develop an app, by default it will not have the rights to use the background APIs. In order to gain access to them and have an app run in the background, you'll need to ask Microsoft to provide the access and make it a type 2 app. Microsoft will only allow this if you can convince them it is necessary for the functioning of your app.
Type 1 apps will simply pause when the user switches away from them. They will remain in memory but will be unable to execute any code until the user switches back to them, whence they will resume execution. This will ensure the app cannot hog any CPU and cause the UI to stutter or slow down. This is definitely a good thing.
Type 2 apps are given access to particular APIs to allow them to, for instance, download updates or postings on IM systems. This will be strictly controlled and priority will always be given to the UI, again to ensure it remains smooth and responsive.
That's my take on what's going to happen, and we'll see if I'm right at MIX 2010 next month.
So your answer is - yes it will multitask but only when it is truly needed. Which to me is the best of both worlds. It will ensure a smooth user experience whilst still allowing background operations.
Jim Coleman said:
In order to gain access to them and have an app run in the background, you'll need to ask Microsoft to provide the access and make it a type 2 app. Microsoft will only allow this if you can convince them it is necessary for the functioning of your app.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Lets hope theyre not too stingy with giving out access to these API's!
The hubs/services (I'm not sure what MS is calling these) system looks good; getting new relative options available on multiple hubs just from installing a single app (like they demo'd with Facebook) should make all the apps work together much better than on an iPhone. I already want to try to make one to generate a music playlist based on past plays, and another to find lyrics to the currently playing song; If I understand the system properly, these would automatically integrate into any 3rd party apps using the appropriate media API's.
Also the context-sensitive search looks to be awesome.
One disadvantage: possible lack of native code execution and probably no OpenGL support - making it harder for iPhone app developers to port their existing apps to Windows Phone.
weesals said:
One disadvantage: possible lack of native code execution and probably no OpenGL support - making it harder for iPhone app developers to port their existing apps to Windows Phone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
why the heck should iPhone devs have an easy migration to WP7 if WM 6 devs don't?
weesals said:
Lets hope theyre not too stingy with giving out access to these API's!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The impression I'm getting so far is that they will be very stingy indeed. The only people who will ever get access to non-standard API's will be phone manufacturers and networks, and even they usually won't get access to the native API's most of the time. Microsoft will not publish any documentation about native API's. To get access to them the manufacturers will have to apply to Microsoft on a case by case basis. If Microsoft judges that a native API is required (and if there actually is one that might help) then only at that point will they release any information, and a condition of this is that they will vet the resulting piece of software to verify that the native API is being used correctly, and forbid the release of the software if it isn't.
What we don't know yet is where multi-tasking sits within all this. Is it a standard managed API, an extended managed API, or a native API?
why must every phone be compared to an iphone...personally I never liked the iphone, never will...only good thing about iphone is the apps..otherwise it sucks..and high end smartphones should not be compared to it!
The only thing I like about iPhone is how I use the virtual keyboard to type text.
I have tested HD2 and iPhone in a store, and from my own perspective, iPhone is more responsive and accurate compared to HD2.
I hope WP7 can be better than those 2 platforms in this task.
giggles33 said:
why must every phone be compared to an iphone...personally I never liked the iphone, never will...only good thing about iphone is the apps..otherwise it sucks..and high end smartphones should not be compared to it!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
gogol said:
The only thing I like about iPhone is how I use the virtual keyboard to type text.
I have tested HD2 and iPhone in a store, and from my own perspective, iPhone is more responsive and accurate compared to HD2.
I hope WP7 can be better than those 2 platforms in this task.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
that isnt aways based on the OS or software, but the quality of the touch screen.
Jim Coleman said:
Having read lots of stuff about WP7S, the conclusion I have come to is this...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This definitely seems like the best thing to do for multitasking in WP7.
We are going to need a task manager though...
As for comparing to the iPhone:
-WP7 will be available in different hardware configurations, giving the consumer a choice in the style and capability of their device.
-Xbox integration, which will most likely include Arcade games (ported for playability of touchscreens)
-Better hardware standards
-Not quite as locked down (hopefully)
RAMMANN said:
why the heck should iPhone devs have an easy migration to WP7 if WM 6 devs don't?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Because that's where the money is.
Seems people are struggling to come up with any, maybe something magical will appear in the next few weeks, although I doubt it, the advantages of WM seem like they will be gone with WP7, people on forums like this and blogs have been asking for a windows mobile iphone [without being an iphone] and it looks like they're going to heed the demand.
The most important advantages are gone.
They've made an exact copy and think it is enough. But it's not. When you try to catch up, you have to be better.
There's almost nothing WP7 is better at. It's an exact copy of iPhone OS with a better UI on top, but lacking the thousands of applications. That's not going to be enough and I really can't think about a reason why consumers and developers would be excited about this.
(and don't get me wrong - I LOVE the UI - it's just not enough)
Free Microsoft Office (Document viewing, creation, downloading, and editing)
Abobe Flash Player 10.1 is coming
File downloads (possibly)
Apps like a Wi-Fi router and file manager will likely come and be allowed
XBOX LIVE! Enough said.
Zune integration and support (I'm a Zune user)
1GHz Snapdragon is the processor minimum (This will lead to awesome apps and games)
WVGA display minimum (You might not care too much about this one, but I've seen the difference, and it's AMAZING!)
Bing search (That's just my preference.)
Contextual search (A handy feature, I suppose.)
There is not an app collection of 100,000 with most of which being totally useless. This means that you"ll be able to find the good apps.
Even if Microsoft won't allow apps like a Wi-Fi router and file manager, all we would need to do would be to get all WinPhone7 users on XDA to install the XNA Game Studio (and possibly the Win Phone7 SDK) and we could simply upload .ccgame files to XDA instead of .cab files.
giggles33 said:
why must every phone be compared to an iphone...personally I never liked the iphone, never will...only good thing about iphone is the apps..otherwise it sucks..and high end smartphones should not be compared to it!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I know! Why must smartphones always be compared to a simple feature phone! I've tried the iPhone/ iPod touch (3rd generation) at Best Buy stores, and, let's just say, they froze more and gave out more errors in 5 sec. than 5 WinMo devices did combined over the course of 2 hours. The iPhone's keyboard isn't too great either. It's (the errors thing) 100% true.
Jim Coleman said:
There will be two types of apps
1. Apps with no need to run in the background
2. Apps that do need to run in the background
Examples of type 1 are games, spreadsheets and word processors.
Examples of type 2 are IM apps like palringo, and music streaming services such as pandora.
What will happen is that when you develop an app, by default it will not have the rights to use the background APIs. In order to gain access to them and have an app run in the background, you'll need to ask Microsoft to provide the access and make it a type 2 app. Microsoft will only allow this if you can convince them it is necessary for the functioning of your app.
Type 1 apps will simply pause when the user switches away from them. They will remain in memory but will be unable to execute any code until the user switches back to them, whence they will resume execution. This will ensure the app cannot hog any CPU and cause the UI to stutter or slow down. This is definitely a good thing.
Type 2 apps are given access to particular APIs to allow them to, for instance, download updates or postings on IM systems. This will be strictly controlled and priority will always be given to the UI, again to ensure it remains smooth and responsive..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is the right answer. Anybody who calms down would see that this makes sense. More Apple-like approval process for Type 2, free reign for Type 1
Shasarak said:
The impression I'm getting so far is that they will be very stingy indeed. The only people who will ever get access to non-standard API's will be phone manufacturers and networks, and even they usually won't get access to the native API's most of the time.
What we don't know yet is where multi-tasking sits within all this. Is it a standard managed API, an extended managed API, or a native API?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, you're talking about native vs managed stuff, which is not the same as simply allowing an app to have a background process. True, AT&T and HTC will have to apply to for native API use for stuff relating to making calls, etc, but that was only about OEMS and network operators.
Regular 3rd party guys, of which there are many, will be expected to get a way to do what they need on the device. Pandora we've seen in Music, you can expect apps like Palringo showing up in People
burnblue said:
This is the right answer. Anybody who calms down would see that this makes sense. More Apple-like approval process for Type 2, free reign for Type 1
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just because it makes sense doesn't mean Microsoft will act like that. In fact, I'm sure they will not.
The mass market will not benefit from every joe having all the API's because it's going make programs that cause glitches/crashes/memory leaks, etc. They are doing what they think is best for mass market and that is make sure things work well on the device and everything is user friendly with the least amount of hiccups possible. So that means more restrictions on us.
^^^ +1
Jim Coleman said:
What will happen is that when you develop an app, by default it will not have the rights to use the background APIs. In order to gain access to them and have an app run in the background, you'll need to ask Microsoft to provide the access and make it a type 2 app. Microsoft will only allow this if you can convince them it is necessary for the functioning of your app.
Type 1 apps will simply pause when the user switches away from them. They will remain in memory but will be unable to execute any code until the user switches back to them, whence they will resume execution. This will ensure the app cannot hog any CPU and cause the UI to stutter or slow down. This is definitely a good thing.
Type 2 apps are given access to particular APIs to allow them to, for instance, download updates or postings on IM systems. This will be strictly controlled and priority will always be given to the UI, again to ensure it remains smooth and responsive.
That's my take on what's going to happen, and we'll see if I'm right at MIX 2010 next month.
So your answer is - yes it will multitask but only when it is truly needed. Which to me is the best of both worlds. It will ensure a smooth user experience whilst still allowing background operations.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This neither solves problems nor guarantees anything though. Poor code is still poor code. Too many apps running is STILL too many apps running (slows the UI). MS can police neither. So, your #2 solution really makes no sense and has no advantages. MS has no way of predicting who will run what app and when on their phones. What if a user chooses to run several "Type 2" apps? Will you get some sort of error message? Will the MS police arrest you for ruining the UI experience? What happens after several years of approved type 2 apps hitting the market? Now were back to the same problems of WM.
Dude, we're talking about 1Ghz+, 512MB+ RAM phones here! You can run lots of apps without slowing anything down. Really, the "multitasking slows down the UI" argument is utter bull****. A good OS handles multitasking in a way that doesn't slow down anything. Restrictions are only necessary if the OS itself sucks. A good OS doesn't need them.
Ive had so many apps that suck so bad, they are so buggy and barely work. Such as Opentable, podcast, and several others. Makes me weary to even purchase full apps even though you can try them. Most apps available suck anyways.
I need:
Best buy app
Chipotle app
Panera bread app
Good podcast app
Good radio app
Good turn by turn navigation app
Opentable that actually works
and im sure there are several apps that I would like to use but not yet available, marketplace is full of bull crap. lets get some stuff people will actually use on a daily basis.
This whole market place concept is a bust.. just because it worked for iphone dosent necessarily mean it will work for wp7. They said marketing stuff like 'oh we have 6000 applications in marketplace!' Reality is its not even worth except for more than 1-2 of them to even download and waste time on.
937dytboi said:
Ive had so many apps that suck so bad, they are so buggy and barely work. Such as Opentable, podcast, and several others. Makes me weary to even purchase full apps even though you can try them. Most apps available suck anyways.
I need:
Best buy app
Chipotle app
Panera bread app
Good podcast app
Good radio app
Good turn by turn navigation app
Opentable that actually works
and im sure there are several apps that I would like to use but not yet available, marketplace is full of bull crap. lets get some stuff people will actually use on a daily basis.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Zune is great for podcasts. What do you want a podcast app to do? The Maps app has great TBT nav - no voice, though.
937dytboi said:
Good radio app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm going to guess you don't like the radio that's already in there.
This is the kind of thing that may suck on WP7 phones for a little while...but i expected that didnt you?
The iphone apps were all full of crap when they first came out....it took time for people to get used to making them, I think the promising thing is that big companies are starting to bother making apps, so it shows people are getting serious.
I read it in an article that MS is a software company and if theres anyone who is going to be able to make it work at this sort of 'late entry' into the market its them.
I have at least 12 APPS I really like and that I use all the time
I think we are just guna have to wait for a bit
The marketplace idea is not a bust.
Developers who want to earn money selling their apps and games have a better chance when all the customers are funneled to one place, as opposed to having to search obscure sites, to find their product.
At that point, it's up to the developer to try to make a compelling enough product for the customer to think it's worth purchasing.
For the customer, they could go to one place to look for anything that is currently available for their phone. They can try out any application without risk, and if they feel that the product is worthy, they can purchase it easily. The rules for purchasing each app/game will be universal. They don't have to go through different payment processes with different companies.
Purple11 said:
Reality is its not even worth except for more than 1-2 of them to even download and waste time on.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Really? So which one or two out of the following do you feel is worth downloading?
Twitter
Facebook
Youtube
Microsoft Tag Reader
Adobe Reader
Shazam
IGN
IMDb
eBay
Flixter
These are just some of the apps I couldn't live without - however, if you manage to witter it down to 1 or 2 I'll post an updated list of all my "important" apps. Although, IMO, 99% of people would have maxed their 2 apps from the top 5 in the list above.
emigrating said:
Really? So which one or two out of the following do you feel is worth downloading?
Twitter
Facebook
Youtube
Microsoft Tag Reader
Adobe Reader
Shazam
IGN
IMDb
eBay
Flixter
These are just some of the apps I couldn't live without - however, if you manage to witter it down to 1 or 2 I'll post an updated list of all my "important" apps. Although, IMO, 99% of people would have maxed their 2 apps from the top 5 in the list above.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This and more and more and more.
OP and hater beneath him, you're just being a little narrow minded tbh.
given that A LOT of the applications are data based, how is your network coverage? is it quite patchy? if so, this would explain why a lot of applications appear very bad constantly not responding/loading data.
as for the market place, i think it's a bit of a good and bad thing. the iPhone model is good for itself, but WP can't copy it completely because of the differences it has. for example, WP offers in app trial mode. this needs to be made more promonent and needs to encourage the end user that these apps work as a trial. with this, then more people who list their apps as a paid app would get better usage as people don't instantly think they have to pay anything to use it.
i personally don't buy any app unless i get a bit of a play with the app first. but the problem is, i have to go to each app to see if it has trial available. the market place needs to adjust to this variable in greater force because it's actually what makes the WP market place a great prospect and cancels out the duplicates which you see in the iOS market place (the free and paid version of apps).
emigrating said:
Really? So which one or two out of the following do you feel is worth downloading?
Twitter
Facebook
Youtube
Microsoft Tag Reader
Adobe Reader
Shazam
IGN
IMDb
eBay
Flixter
These are just some of the apps I couldn't live without - however, if you manage to witter it down to 1 or 2 I'll post an updated list of all my "important" apps. Although, IMO, 99% of people would have maxed their 2 apps from the top 5 in the list above.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Other than Adobe Reader all other software you mentioned are useless to me. I am a smartphone user, not an Iphone user.
Oookayyy... so what do you want then?
zukŠ° said:
Oookayyy... so what do you want then?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Better: Calendar, Appointments, Time Management, Alarm, Wallet, Book Keeping, Expense Records, Maps, Navigation, SMS/Mail Organizing, Dialer, Auto-Call Record, Call Management, Data Management etc etc you should get an idea ..
Purple11 said:
Better: Calendar, Appointments, Time Management, Alarm, Wallet, Book Keeping, Expense Records, Maps, Navigation, SMS/Mail Organizing, Dialer, Auto-Call Record, Call Management, Data Management etc etc you should get an idea ..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Most of which is part of the core OS - now if all you want are better implementations of the above, feel free to discuss what, specifically, needs fixing in the core experience.
If you ask me, the calendar, appointments, time management, alarms and email are all working fine out of the box - sure, we need better exchange support (server search etc), but it does what it's supposed to for now.
As for Book Keeping / Expense Records (why are you listing both?) - there are apps for this.
Bing Maps is included out of the box. Navigation may be poor, but there are apps for this that help somewhat.
In any case - if you need enterprise features like what you've listed above you're really not part of the target audience for WP7 at the moment. Something which has been very clear ever since the February unveiling of WP7 last year.
emigrating said:
Really? So which one or two out of the following do you feel is worth downloading?
Twitter
Facebook
Youtube
Microsoft Tag Reader
Adobe Reader
Shazam
IGN
IMDb
eBay
Flixter
These are just some of the apps I couldn't live without - however, if you manage to witter it down to 1 or 2 I'll post an updated list of all my "important" apps. Although, IMO, 99% of people would have maxed their 2 apps from the top 5 in the list above.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
See we are just two different people, KI dont have a twitter or Facebook account. So thats useless to me, Shazam I wont really use. But everything on your list is fine. My problem is that some apps that ive downloaded seem not to work like advertised and they crap out by running slow or not working at all. But I think im jumping the gun here, I just think we should have a better marketplace selection but I have to realize that the marketplace has just really opened to be honest. Just felt I needed to gripe about my experience
What's also a problem (for now) is that development for Windows Phone is so similar to developing for regular Windows environments: same tools, same programming languages, etc. A lot of "normal" Windows / .NET developers are early adopters of the platform and are having their go at developing a Windows Phone app. Unfortunately they don't always consider the limitations that the platforms has. They'll use a lot of heavy animation, request huge amounts of data, use imagery not optimized for mobile use. Thus: crappy apps.
I think over time this will all settle and the apps will become better.
That said, Microsoft does need to increase the overall app performance on the phone. There's a noticable difference between the built-in (native) apps and the managed apps.
stringray said:
What's also a problem (for now) is that development for Windows Phone is so similar to developing for regular Windows environments: same tools, same programming languages, etc. A lot of "normal" Windows / .NET developers are early adopters of the platform and are having their go at developing a Windows Phone app. Unfortunately they don't always consider the limitations that the platforms has. They'll use a lot of heavy animation, request huge amounts of data, use imagery not optimized for mobile use. Thus: crappy apps.
I think over time this will all settle and the apps will become better.
That said, Microsoft does need to increase the overall app performance on the phone. There's a noticable difference between the built-in (native) apps and the managed apps.
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this is blatantly false. First of all unless you're doing game programming you can only make Silverlight apps. Most regular windows applications do not use silverlight! You would think the web designers who use that stuff can create better apps, guess not.
Secondly the reason for crappy apps is entirely microsoft's fault. To get your app published, you need to pay 99$ a year for a developers license and get your identity verified by some thirdparty. After that when you submit an app, it is supposed to get reviewed by a team at microsoft to verify that your app meets many of the app guideliness set (like not crashing!).
I remember going to Tech Days (microsoft developer conference) and hearing them bragging about how their app reviews ensured that only quality apps were released but lately the amount of **** apps that have been appearing on the app marketplace makes me think they are just auto approving anything without even checking to see if it works.
pillsburydoughman said:
this is blatantly false. First of all unless you're doing game programming you can only make Silverlight apps. Most regular windows applications do not use silverlight! You would think the web designers who use that stuff can create better apps, guess not.
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Zero windows applications use Silverlight. WPF maybe, but Silverlight is a web-only subset. What stringray actually said was:
Windows Phone is so similar to developing for regular Windows environments: same tools, same programming languages, etc.
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Which is correct. Visual Studio is the primary development tool for desktop and C# is very popular development language for desktop.
The rest of what you said is probably true. But you can never test an app and say that it will never crash. Do you remember WM6.5 when you downloaded an app to find it didn't even launch on your device? Well at least it's filtering out all that crap
Silverlight is not only for web development. I believe since Silverlight 3.0 you can use them as desktop applications as well.
pillsburydoughman said:
Secondly the reason for crappy apps is entirely microsoft's fault. To get your app published, you need to pay 99$ a year for a developers license and get your identity verified by some thirdparty. After that when you submit an app, it is supposed to get reviewed by a team at microsoft to verify that your app meets many of the app guideliness set (like not crashing!).
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How is the way you pay and get verified the reason why the apps are MS' fault?
Yea, they check them but rarely have I seen an app crash (actually I haven't yet but I'm not going to state that all of them have).
I just want to quickly point something to the ones you have hated apps.
Why don't you give feedback to developers? I have given serveral and emailed several feedback and have gotten a response each time. And each time, they take my feedback into consideration and either plan to implement them in the future.
As the end-user don't we want the best product? To get the best, we have to critique and help evolve the marketplace/apps. Only this way do developers know how to improve and what needs to be improved.
Otherwise they believe everything is dandy.
pillsburydoughman said:
this is blatantly false. First of all unless you're doing game programming you can only make Silverlight apps. Most regular windows applications do not use silverlight!
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Well, Silverlight development does resemble WPF programming a lot (afterall, it is a subset of WPF). And we've been doing WPF programming for years now, haven't we? Actually, if you stick to simply placing controls on a page and adding event code it resembles WinForms very much. And that last thing is what I see happening a lot. Many developers create some spaghetti app, which totally messes up tombstoning or page navigation.
Once developers get more comfortable with Windows Phone (Silverlight) programming, they'll see that things like the MVVM pattern, async processing , etc. actually do make sense and can be very helpful. And that's when the good apps are starting to get made.
Secondly the reason for crappy apps is entirely microsoft's fault. To get your app published, you need to pay 99$ a year for a developers license and get your identity verified by some thirdparty. After that when you submit an app, it is supposed to get reviewed by a team at microsoft to verify that your app meets many of the app guideliness set (like not crashing!).
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In general I think they do a really good job. Of course they had to learn in the beginning and a lot of faults were made. But the test department is getting better and better. The reports you get when an app fails certification are often very detailed.
Don't forget they check apps against the Guidelines. I agree there are a lot of stupid apps (Peace Sign app, anyone?). But those apps do follow the Guidelines.
Crashes are hard to predict and it's not that easy to test for them. Personally, I haven't experienced much app crashing on my device. In fact, I've seen more apps crash on my iOS devices than on my WP7.
Microsoft has said they collect crash dumps from all apps on the phone (at least, if you've opted in for that). I hope that someday they'll give us developers access to those dumps, so we can do post-mortem analysis of our app's crashes.
But lately the amount of **** apps that have been appearing on the app marketplace makes me think they are just auto approving anything without even checking to see if it works.
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Totally disagree. The apps may be not to your liking, but most of them do work according to the Guidelines. And did you give feedback to the developers of those apps? They often actually listen!
Please, please for the love of god write a post, and sticky it, about what multitasking and background scheduling is, and why most apps shouldn't be allowed to run in the background. I'm so sick of reading about users complaining about "the lack of multitasking" (Eeeeew! Now I said it, and I feel dirty! :S ) when what they really want is the ability to run annoying programs in the background that will allow them to complain about the poor battery life, how WP7 raped them economically etc etc...because they really don't know what they want.
Please? Pretty please with sugar on top?
tiwas said:
I'm so sick of reading about users complaining about "the lack of multitasking" ... when what they really want is the ability to run annoying programs in the background that will allow them to complain about the poor battery life, how WP7 raped them economically etc etc
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Most users?!
Most people want the ablility to continue being navigated to their destination while listening to streaming music (not thru Zune as their region does not allow it - like yours) or check their email or even make a phone-call to say they'll be late.
Or perhaps they want an Exchange task manager that will actually remind you of your tasks without having to keep the app open at all times, or maybe they would like their phone to automatically change "profiles" at certain times of the day (ie., very simplified; 8-12 ringer on, 12-13 on silent except certain numbers, 13-18 all on, 18-23 same as lunch, 23-8 all silent apart from alarms).
These are all, relatively common, things you cannot do without real multitasking.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE! stop calling that multi-tasking! It's background scheduling!
And, yeah, I see your point, but apps like that should have special authorization to ensure they're not spinning in the background stealing processor cycles, downloading data, draining the battery etc...
tiwas said:
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE! stop calling that multi-tasking! It's background scheduling!
And, yeah, I see your point, but apps like that should have special authorization to ensure they're not spinning in the background stealing processor cycles, downloading data, draining the battery etc...
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Well, no. The examples I gave were a mixture of actual multitasking and scheduling. Some could do with a simple "register this event for execution at this time" but others really do need the full app running in the background at "all" times.
I definitely agree though, not every Tom **** and Harry should be allowed to write fully multitasking apps - or rather, they should be allowed to, but their release in the marketplace should be limited to those certified by Microsoft. I.e., what I'm saying is that the OS should have been fully prepared for multitasking from the getgo, with developers having to use technical exceptions during app certification to be published. As is, I very much doubt we'll see multitasking until the first major update which will likely come hand in hand with much higher HW specs to make sure the OS is still silky smooth.
Running the app in the background at all times is still background scheduling...Multitasking is, in all fairness, what the OS uses to run threads in the background, but multitasking is fully supported by the OS. It's the lack of subscribing to background scheduling events that's causing "the problems".
At least we agree about letting everybody schedule whatever they feel like is a bad idea, and hopefully, at some point, MS will let developers use "advanced functions" that require "advanced testing" before letting them into marketplace. All the bits and pieces seem to be there, though, as OEMs can make background apps...
WP7 cannot multi-task at all, and attempting to infer that it does with garbage semantics is pretty lame.
How about the mods sticky a thread on users who don't know what they're talking about attempting to force their own lexicon on the rest of us and attempting to appear so intelligent and above us unintelligent sheep.
Thank you for showing us the light....
What some of us actually want out of WP7 is an actual ability to run more than one freaking application at once. Does that spell it out for you?
If I am using a 3rd party podcast app because the zune one sucks, I want to be able to then check my damn email without my podcast cutting out. If I am playing a game and I get a text, I want to be able to respond without having to reload the entire game.
Call this whatever the hell you want to call it, but WP7 cannot do it, Android and iOS can.
Get off your high horse and help development instead of attempting to condescend on the rest of us.
lol what a stupid post. It's 2011 and we can't have the ability for multiple applications to run at once? what is this world coming to.. and asking for a sticky because you *THINK* multitasking = slow apps? I got news for you, it's a discussion forum, if you don't like it don't read the thread.
orangekid said:
WP7 cannot multi-task at all, and attempting to infer that it does with garbage semantics is pretty lame.
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Oh...want me to tell my programs to stop running more than one thread, then?
And what are you calling "bull**** semantics"?
1. The OS can multitask, and it allows special applications to run in the background (scheduling). Proof: you can listen to music while surfing the web, and accept calls while checking the calendar. Of COURSE it can multitask!
2. Programs can multitask. I can asynchronously call a web service and do stuff while I wait. I can also display a wait animation while processing stuff
So please try to keep your mouth closed when you have no idea what you're talking about.
Besides Microsoft stuff there is absolutely no multitasking. Is that better?
tiwas said:
Oh...want me to tell my programs to stop running more than one thread, then?
And what are you calling "bull**** semantics"?
1. The OS can multitask, and it allows special applications to run in the background (scheduling). Proof: you can listen to music while surfing the web, and accept calls while checking the calendar. Of COURSE it can multitask!
2. Programs can multitask. I can asynchronously call a web service and do stuff while I wait. I can also display a wait animation while processing stuff
So please try to keep your mouth closed when you have no idea what you're talking about.
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once again you prove that you have no idea what you're talking about. Being able to launch a couple of crappy MS apps and then open IE is not multi-tasking in any practical form. What you reference is about the only time it can background anything.
What if I want to use a non-MS app that does not suck and do anything else? Not going to happen. This is a real issue. I cannot use any other music player or podcast player or music streaming app and open IE or text or email or anything, I cannot text or email while playing a game if I don't want the game to reload.
Claiming that WP7 can multi-task is like saying it has a comparable app store to iOS, it's complete garbage.
vetvito said:
Besides Microsoft stuff there is absolutely no multitasking. Is that better?
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lol, beat me to it, and more concise
Yes, it actually IS! Now we don't have all the problems from WM6.5, which is proof that even professional developers have problems setting up their programs correctly.
And still - it's called scheduling.
Multi-tasking (which even an old 8086 can do): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_multitasking
Multi-threading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multithreading_(computer_architecture)
Scheduling: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scheduling_(computing)
Now PLEASE read and understand...
orangekid said:
once again you prove that you have no idea what you're talking about. Being able to launch a couple of crappy MS apps and then open IE is not multi-tasking in any practical form. What you reference is about the only time it can background anything.
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FFS! You're just proving you have no reading comprehension. I'm talking about threads in a program, not tombstoning an app.
orangekid said:
What if I want to use a non-MS app that does not suck and do anything else? Not going to happen. This is a real issue. I cannot use any other music player or podcast player or music streaming app and open IE or text or email or anything, I cannot text or email while playing a game if I don't want the game to reload.
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Why do you think that? We're on a beta OS, and MS is still ironing things out. The OS *can* multitask, they're just not exposing it to 3rd party developers (yet), which I think is an excellent idea.
orangekid said:
Claiming that WP7 can multi-task is like saying it has a comparable app store to iOS, it's complete garbage.
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For crying out loud. Now you're literally comparing apples to oranges, and you're not even able to see in how many ways the comparison fails.
Go read up on the links I posted, then TRY to control your adhd while reading my initial post. Then I *might* consider your postings anything but a complete waste of perfectly good bits...
wrong again, my friend.
If the OS "can" multi-task but only does it to the crapware that comes on the phone, then it essentially can't multi-task.
And the OS would have to be modified to to be able to actually multi-task and not just keep playing zune when you press the home key.
Once again you're trying to play the semantics game bill clinton...
when people here say they want multi-tasking, they are talking about apps that actually matter, third freaking party apps, and the OS cannot do it, this is a problem to a lot of users.
I don't care if the OS is in beta stage, are you saying we should wait 5 years to buy a WP7 phone?
This is quality - good we can have a constructive discussion! LOL.
For me the point is the phone doesn't do what I want it to, Android and the iPhone do appear to so if we can get Multi-schedule-task-switching like the other OS's in the next update I'll be happy.
Maybe those who can't help but get too excited by terminology could spend some time writing an app that replaces offending words to their preferred alternatives when viewing the forums?
orangekid said:
...
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Man, you're stupid. From what you're saying, I can call you an illiterate just because you choose not to read what people write. I can, like I just did, call you stupid because you choose not to think (at least I hope it's a choice).
It's there. MS can let anyone they chose access it. You're not on the list. More companies might get on it eventually, but until then it's special access. That does NOT mean the OS cannot multitask or schedule.
But...since you don't even know the difference between multitasking, multithreading, and scheduling and the effects they have in a program or a program launching other programs (like an OS) you really should just stay quiet. You might learn something...
gc48067 said:
This is quality - good we can have a constructive discussion! LOL.
For me the point is the phone doesn't do what I want it to, Android and the iPhone do appear to so if we can get Multi-schedule-task-switching like the other OS's in the next update I'll be happy.
Maybe those who can't help but get too excited by terminology could spend some time writing an app that replaces offending words to their preferred alternatives when viewing the forums?
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Click to collapse
Well, I wasn't the one who grabbed the ball and ran with it Forrest Gump style. I wanted to get the facts about multitasking/scheduling out so people could start asking the right questions instead of asking questions that doesn't make sense because they're plain wrong.
I *do* see the point in getting scheduling, and I would love to have some hand picked scheduling programs myself. Most programs don't use it, but some do - like streaming. There should be a stringent verification process and it shouldn't be available to everyone.
Like Mr Moron pointed out, he wanted his apps to tombstone correctly so he could continue from where he left off (sorry, orangekid, but you *are* stupid). That is a clear example of when NOT to run a program in the background. He's angry at MS because the game developers doesn't tombstone correctly so he can continue from where he left off. That's the *exact* reason why I don't want everybody to have access to background scheduling, as people would start yelling at MS for all the crashes and Samsung for making phones with crappy battery life - even though the fault is somewhere else.
Regarding the app you're talking about, you want me to use regular expressions to transform sentences like "orangekid, you're an f-ing ass-O" to "orangekid, you're an f-ing donkey-hole"? (sorry...couldn't help myself )
gc48067 said:
This is quality - good we can have a constructive discussion! LOL.
For me the point is the phone doesn't do what I want it to, Android and the iPhone do appear to so if we can get Multi-schedule-task-switching like the other OS's in the next update I'll be happy.
Maybe those who can't help but get too excited by terminology could spend some time writing an app that replaces offending words to their preferred alternatives when viewing the forums?
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Click to collapse
Good points.
@tiwas, your original point is for people not to think that WP7 cannot mulit-task because it can run only Zune in the background. You then attempt to refine and back up your point by claiming multi-threading and scheduling and all this garbage, when it has been pointed out that when people in this forum say they want multi-tasking, they basically want to run an app other than Zune and continue the app running while doing other things, which WP7 cannot do, yet iOS and Android can.
Throw all the terminology you want into the mix and the above still holds true.
Your "urgent request" will not be considered by any mods because they have not been smoking crack today as far as I know.
tiwas said:
Regarding the app you're talking about, you want me to use regular expressions to transform sentences like "orangekid, you're an f-ing ass-O" to "orangekid, you're an f-ing donkey-hole"? (sorry...couldn't help myself )
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paragon of eloquence. simply amazing.
orangekid said:
Good points.
@tiwas, your original point is for people not to think that WP7 cannot mulit-task because it can run only Zune in the background. You then attempt to refine and back up your point by claiming multi-threading and scheduling and all this garbage, when it has been pointed out that when people in this forum say they want multi-tasking, they basically want to run an app other than Zune and continue the app running while doing other things, which WP7 cannot do, yet iOS and Android can.
Throw all the terminology you want into the mix and the above still holds true.
Your "urgent request" will not be considered by any mods because they have not been smoking crack today as far as I know.
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You're a moron. Even more, you're a moron who cannot read.
tiwas said:
You're a moron. Even more, you're a moron who cannot read.
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when one cannot reason with logic they can be counted upon to resort to imbecilic and puerile insults.
Furthermore, my moronism and illiteracy are the byproducts of having to read posts such as the one quoted above which studies have shown reduce the general intelligence quotient of forum readers by an estimated 20%.
This is a clarification thread, and I will not, unlike my other attempt, be fooled into a pissing contest. There just seems to be a lot of misunderstanding when it comes to "multitasking" on Windows Phone 7, and I will try to clarify a little bit.
Problem: You're in a program, start another one, and then start the original again - and your data is gone, or if it's a game you have to start from the beginning.
Answer: This has nothing to do with multitasking, but something called tombstoning. The developers has to take into account what to do when a program is exited by starting another program, and most seem to just ignore it. That is when you lose your data or have to start the game from scratch
Problem: "Windows Phone doesn't multitask", "When will we get multitasking" etc
Answer: Windows Phone can multitask just fine. So can the programs running on Windows Phone. What most people refer to when asking these questions is really either the question above, or if developers will be allowed to run programs in the background. Multitasking is being able to more than one thing at the time, and the most simple test to see if your phone supports it or not is to see if you can receive phone calls or listen to music while you're checking mail. So - your phone can both multitask and run applications in the background (which is called scheduling, actually, as multitasking doesn't necessarily mean running a program that isn't in the foreground - uploading a picture to your sky drive while letting you browse the other pictures is typical multitasking).
Problem: "When will MS let us run programs in the background?"
Answer: There are both pros and cons to letting developers do this. A lot of developers aren't that good when it comes to using resources sensibly while in the background, and a lot of programs simply doesn't *need* to run in the background. If you're writing notes and want them back when you return, that's tombstoning. Playing a game? Well, you certainly don't want it to actually run in the background as you'll be dead when you return. Still tombstoning. One of the few applications is if you're listening to music (videos don't cound, because it doesn't make sense playing the video when you cannot watch it) or download larger amounts of data. The problem is that, if it's not done correctly, this can negatively impact performance (do you really want your game to stutter or have to wait two minutes for mail to open??), it can drain your battery, and it can even help distribute viruses. If MS wants to open this to developers, they need to have special testing procedures before they allow it. Also, misbehaving background apps will give most people a negative image of MS, which is apparent in all the threads dissing MS for not allowing "multitasking" because developers don't save data when exiting the application.
So, here's a short run-down of terms that are interesting in today's computer landscape:
* Multitasking: Being able to do more than one job at a time. Multitasking really just divides the processor time (available time to use the processor) and gives slices to different jobs.
* Multithreading: Being able to divide tasks into their own threads, thus allowing the use of more cores/processors. A multitasking, single threaded OS can only use one processor (simplification of the truth - if you know why it's a simplification, you don't need the full story. If you don't, it will only confuse you), while a multitasking, multithreaded OS can use more. Most programs, even for regular computers don't use multithreading, as it's a pain in the O to handle, but operating systems do. That's why, on a PC, Counter Strike will only use one of the cores on your brand new gaming rig with 8 cores, but all the cores will be active.
* Background scheduling: How the OS can let applications run in the background, usually by giving it less processor time (most often just free cycles) and thus letting it complete a time consuming process without making the system too slow to use. A foreground application will usually get more processor time than if it was running in the background.
I hope this clears it up, and helps people to understand what the different terms are and when to use it.
To sum up:
* Multitasking is available. There's no question about it. Windows Phone multitasks applications, and applications can multitask internally.
* Background scheduling is available, but is not an open API for developers. This has both positive and negative implications, depending on application
* A lot of developers are pretty bad when it comes to tombstoning.
Great post. There is nothing to be added. Sadly most ppl won't read the whole think or simply continue complaining.
I'm happy with the OS as it is, because I don't want all those crappy apps to suck my battery and fool with my CPU cycles.
In future real sceduling may be a capability of apps which need spezial certification. But I'm strictly against open APIs for that!
It has nothing to do with developers. If an OS is well written it will handle multitasking just fine, it's a nice excuse but a lame one. My old blackberry with a 400mhz processor and displays graphic icons can multi-task. Windows phone 7 with a 1ghz processor and is primarily text based won't allow it.
The keyword here is won't. We all know it's capable of doing it so why won't MS allow it? This is the reason why many major instant message apps are not available for this platform. What's the point of having an instant messager if it gets tombstoned when you switch screens? Big usability hole here.
the_Crispy said:
Great post. There is nothing to be added. Sadly most ppl won't read the whole think or simply continue complaining.
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Thanks
See the post below yours for confirmation that people won't read, but will gladly complain
I see what you mean and for the most part you got all the definitions correct, but you also have to see how WP7 handles apps and the pros and cons on the end-user.
WP7 actually just saves the state of the app when navigated away from, and does not actually enable you to RUN two apps at once so developers have to be really tricky with how they incorporate this into the OS. The pros are saving battery and not waste resources, the cons are that you cannot actually utilize the best parts of multi-tasking.
Do you want you game "running" in the background so you die? No, but the developer should know that and code the app appropriately. Do you want to be able to stream music in the background while checking emails or texting or tweeting? Of course. Not possible under the current version of WP7. How about playing a game/email/text while driving and having turn-by-turn navigation on? Nope. Developers might be lazy at times, but they're not usually idiots.
There's no question that the OS has the native ability to do so, no one ever argued that point. The beef is that MS has locked their OS down so they only allow Zune to do it. Well some of us don't like Zune or want to multi-task other apps too.
But MS wants to play it safe and see how multi-tasking is working out for Google and Apple before they actually allow it for any 3rd party apps, meanwhile the end-user suffers and the salesguy at the t-mobile store doesn't even show you an HD7 because you "can only do one thing at a time." MS needs to wake the hell up and allow 3rd party TRUE multi-tasking for 3rd party apps. It actually made some sense to not allow it for the initial release, it could have been a nightmare with an early OS and not that many apps anyways, developers had to get fancy and had to stay smart and honest, or their app would be killed with the quickness.
But it is time to free the OS to do some core things that it is really lacking:
1) True Multitasking
2) Copy and Paste
3) HTML5 and Flash support in IE
4) Third party web browsers
5) full direct camera access to apps
6) separate audio levels for media, ringtones, alarm (android really nailed this one)
of course other bugs and stuff, but these are the main issues for me. I don't blame MS for how they handled tombstoning and multi-tasking initially, but it's time (with efficiency) to catch up with the rest of the herd.
tiwas said:
and I will not, unlike my other attempt, be fooled into a pissing contest.
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pillsburydoughman said:
It has nothing to do with developers. If an OS is well written it will handle multitasking just fine, it's a nice excuse but a lame one. My old blackberry with a 400mhz processor and displays graphic icons can multi-task. Windows phone 7 with a 1ghz processor and is primarily text based won't allow it.
The keyword here is won't. We all know it's capable of doing it so why won't MS allow it? This is the reason why many major instant message apps are not available for this platform. What's the point of having an instant messager if it gets tombstoned when you switch screens? Big usability hole here.
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tiwas said:
Thanks
See the post below yours for confirmation that people won't read, but will gladly complain
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I'm not going to get into any ranting or raving or anything on this one, but please don't bash everyone who does not agree with you in this thread or claim they don't read.
The guy had a legitimate post about tombstoning an instant messenger and I have pointed out other times where MS drops the ball on this mulit-tasking issue.
Your OP is a good post and helps clear up some things, but you have to understand that there are real concerns with the OS not allowing 3rd party multi-tasking and just flaming anyone who does not think that this is the best way for the OS to operate.
It wasn't bashing. I was simply pointing out that he hadn't read the whole thing, as he, like you, didn't really understand the concept of multitasking.
Anyway, I'm not going to start arguing with you again.
pillsburydoughman said:
It has nothing to do with developers. If an OS is well written it will handle multitasking just fine, it's a nice excuse but a lame one. My old blackberry with a 400mhz processor and displays graphic icons can multi-task. Windows phone 7 with a 1ghz processor and is primarily text based won't allow it.
The keyword here is won't. We all know it's capable of doing it so why won't MS allow it? This is the reason why many major instant message apps are not available for this platform. What's the point of having an instant messager if it gets tombstoned when you switch screens? Big usability hole here.
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WP7 definitely has the capbility of multi tasking, or you won't be playing music while using IE. MS limited the multi tasking for 3rd party apps.
Your old phone or android phone can do multitanking without any system limit. As I know it's free for Android application to create background services. However it causes significant lag and battery drain. My captivate lose 4% power per hour on standby and I cannot even locate which app is causing such battery drain.
MS learned from apple that it's more important to keep the device running smooth than to let apps mess the phone up.
Who cares what you call it. People want to have a messenger or non zune music player in the background while they do other things and be able to QUICKLY respond to it. BASICALLY most people want what apple calls multitasking/fast app switching. Only certain things allowed and a proper save state when when leaving the app. It works great on the iPhone and i dont care what people say its simple and effective.
can WP7 multitask?
tiwas said:
It wasn't bashing. I was simply pointing out that he hadn't read the whole thing, as he, like you, didn't really understand the concept of multitasking.
Anyway, I'm not going to start arguing with you again.
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Click to collapse
well I think we both understand the concept of multi-tasking, just disagree with you on the wiseness of not allowing third party apps to be able to do so, someone disagreeing with you isn't the same thing as not understanding something; multi-tasking is actually a pretty easy concept to understand.
I don't want to argue with you again either, I just also don't want readers of this thread to be misinformed and to get all viewpoints regarding WP7's lack of multi-tasking support and then they can decide if they agree or not, but it doesn't mean that the subject is not understood.
I have no desire to start any beef on this thread, just keep in mind that when you start a thread you open a discussion open to disagreements, these don't mean that people don't read or don't understand necessarily. Don't be afraid to be wrong, it happens to everyone. We're all here to get the most out of our devices anyways.
So, you are shazaming a song on the radio, and get a phone call or a txt - will wp7 tombstone the live radio for you too?
Anthonok said:
Who cares what you call it. People want to have a messenger or non zune music player in the background while they do other things and be able to QUICKLY respond to it. BASICALLY most people want what apple calls multitasking/fast app switching. Only certain things allowed and a proper save state when when leaving the app. It works great on the iPhone and i dont care what people say its simple and effective.
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Click to collapse
Apple add this feature not until their 4th generation system
Let's see what the mango update will give us.
amtrakcn said:
Apple add this feature not until their 4th generation system
Let's see what the mango update will give us.
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what so they will add this in the 9 generation?(if you count 6.1 and 6.5)
Wow
vetvito said:
what so they will add this in the 9 generation?(if you count 6.1 and 6.5)
Wow
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It's named WP7 but it's ACTUALLY WP1.
WM is designed to be a lite version of desktop windows with phone features
That's why it was powerful while hurting user experience
vetvito said:
can WP7 multitask?
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Click to collapse
You should read my full post. It's explained
I am absolutely sure big companies will be allowed to run in the background, and it's probably just a question about time before we get MSN Messenger running properly in the background.
There are other uses, like streaming music, but as for the suggestions of running GPS software with turn by turn instructions (you shouldn't play games or do anything with your phone while driving!) and having a game active in the background without letting your character die (cool! Let's spin our wheels! We're not going anywhere, but we sure are spending gas! ) are plain silly...
Ok, on my list of programs that will benefit from actually running in the background, I can only think of two now, but please help me put more on the list:
* Music streaming
* Messaging
vetvito said:
can WP7 multitask?
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Click to collapse
nothing other than Zune right now
tiwas said:
but as for the suggestions of running GPS software with turn by turn instructions (you shouldn't play games or do anything with your phone while driving!) and having a game active in the background without letting your character die (cool! Let's spin our wheels! We're not going anywhere, but we sure are spending gas! ) are plain silly...
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Click to collapse
well GPS would nice since sometimes you're the passenger and you still want turn by turn while gaming or emailing, so it needs to be supported in the mango update too.
Hi fellow XDA lovers
I just want to remind you all that we don't want a flame war here so keep it on topic please.
amtrakcn said:
Apple add this feature not until their 4th generation system
Let's see what the mango update will give us.
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Click to collapse
Yes it took them an extremely long time because apple is stubborn (or should i say Steve Jobs) and it is disappointing that Microsoft chose to pull an apple with WP7. But at least apple updated the iPhone....
lqaddict said:
So, you are shazaming a song on the radio, and get a phone call or a txt - will wp7 tombstone the live radio for you too?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I should probably be able to run in the background if you get a call. I can play games while on the phone, but it leaves a nasty orange block on the top of the screen to notify you that your on the phone. As far txt messaging go, yea that's a bummer. I just click the message when it comes up, respond, then click back to go to the game I was playing. Just hope that game saved your previous state.
Remember when people were complaining about a lack of good apps and all they could hear was "There's no API for that, wait for Mango, bla bla bla...".
Developers have had the tools since when? May, June, July? Yet the only worthy app we've seen is WhatsApp. At a time when people are preordering the iPhone 4S like crazy, isn't it time WP crank it up a bit?
Why can't I have something as simple as Audible for instance (heck, there isn't even an Amazon app outside the US)? It's like the world stopped with Mango, I don't get it.
[Insert "you're to impatient", "buy an iPhone" comments here]
a good chat client. WhatsApp, IM+ DO NOT count as good chat clients. They are both broken, slow, buggy, laggy and half the time don't even work. If someone now says IM+ works then I'll ask them to use it on iOS or Android and see what 'works' REALLY means.
I must admit I was all excited about getting Mango and having Live tiles on the home screen.
Sadly there are hardly any good apps to use, And even fewer with live tiles.
{I would love Twitter to have a live tile}
The little things like no WiFi tethering and no decent Navigation app for WP7 is testing my patience as well. I am hoping Nokia will rectify these short comings as I really do love the windows software.
I just hope the hardware that this platform deserve is released soon.
TuneIn radio has been updated to Mango, and now supports background audio. That's the best update I've had - use that app all the time. Other than that a few of my map apps (Bingle Maps, GMaps) open quicker, but that's it really.
Yeh is a bit of a let down so far; still no augmented reality apps yet, or properly good WP7 exclusive games (could we have *one* FPS please?)
another complaining thread sighs....
sayonical said:
another complaining thread sighs....
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well WP7 isn't a bed of roses as you might think it is. For those who paid through the roof have the right to complain if the platform doesn't meet their expectations.
agp64 said:
..... The little things like no WiFi tethering and no decent Navigation app for WP7 .....
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Click to collapse
Maybe Navigon Navigator does'nt support your region but for 95% of the users Navigator IS a decent navigation app (and version 4 should to be released soon to the market i read somewhere).
There will never be an OS that will fully forfill YOUR needs but when it does what the majority of users want it's on the right way.
I dont get the "no good gps apps" argument. Is Garmin Streetpilot not available in the US or Europe?
How about this. Let's come up with a list of the apps that we really want and some of us can start to ping them (via twitter or email) to see whether or not they are working on a WP7 app and any idea when it's coming.
Im getting 5+ updates everyday and most are for mango. It takes time.
Sent from my T8788 using XDA Windows Phone 7 App
PG2G said:
How about this. Let's come up with a list of the apps that we really want and some of us can start to ping them (via twitter or email) to see whether or not they are working on a WP7 app and any idea when it's coming.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There's an idea I can run with instead of countless posts moaning and groaning!
I'll start
Ereader.com (Back when I had my pocket pc, then android so I have a lot of books on there, would love to have this on wp7) However Barnes and Nobles own the company now and they have the nook so probably a hopeless cause....
A Barnes and Noble Nook app wouldn't hurt though...
sent the tweet: @BN_care will you be releasing a Nook app for Windows Phone 7? I'd also like to read my ereader.com books on my windows phone. Help!
the92playboy said:
I dont get the "no good gps apps" argument. Is Garmin Streetpilot not available in the US or Europe?
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Click to collapse
Garmin is US only, Navigon so far is only available in Germany (?)
Sent from my Samsung Omnia 7 using XDA Windows Phone 7 App
Peew971 said:
Garmin is US only, Navigon so far is only available in Germany (?)
Sent from my Samsung Omnia 7 using XDA Windows Phone 7 App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Canada also has Garmin, and works awesome for those interested.
This is pretty much the reason I can't see myself switching. I have an iPhone. Why do I want to move to a platform where I can do less than I already can? I really want certain apps on WP7 before I move or I just cannot justify moving. It may be an unimportant app to most people, but an app like Grindr is something I don't want my platform without. Not to mention I have a free turn-by-turn app with iOS(which I believe Nokia is going to be addressing, and is most likely the hardware I'd be buying if I got a Windows Phone).
A lot of people on here(from what I've noticed) are saying that WP7 needs to get more unique apps. While that's nice and all, I want already existing apps. Most of my friends also have iPhones, and I don't want them to tell me to pull up an app and be unable to. I don't really care about the "look what my phone can do and yours can't." I care about being able to do all that they can at the very least.
Many people on here care about games and think that could be the main selling point of WP7. I just don't see it happening. While it's a small sample size, most people I've met pretty much only pick up simple games like Angry Birds or Cut the Rope(if that). I just don't feel that a large majority of smart phone owners want to play action-packed RPGs on their phones. We have computers and consoles for that. And while it might be a nice novelty to be able to once in a while, again, the only games people I know as well as myself play are the simple pick it up for a few minutes and put it back down games.
Next comes the photography apps. I almost never take pictures, but many, many people do. I don't have a WP7 to compare apps with, but I'm curious what the photo apps on there are like. I have Camera+, Hipstamatic, and Instagram on my phone. How do non-native apps(and I guess the native app) on WP7 stack up to those? I hope Nokia will save the day in terms of excellent camera quality, but the in-app editing is also a pretty important feature to me(when I do actually take pictures) and others.
The Windows Phone OS looks pretty amazing, but I just can't justify moving until it can do all that my iPhone can in terms of apps relevant to me. I'm hoping by WP8 it will be all I want and more, and just maybe it will be able to suck me out of the Apple ecosystem. The live tiles are a pretty excellent concept, and while it's compelling, I need more apps to be available. People almost always develop for iOS before they develop for Android or WP7, so it definitely leaves something to be desired in that department.
The only thing I'd be pleased with is the fact that Skype integration is coming. On that token, I already have a Skype app with video calling on the iPhone. So Microsoft has definitely got to step up their game, get existing apps on this platform at all costs, and make sure their own in-house apps completely blow the other platforms' alternatives away.
the92playboy said:
Canada also has Garmin, and works awesome for those interested.
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Click to collapse
While iOS and Andorid have MapQuest for free with virtually all the features of Android's Google Maps and Navigation for free.
http://wireless.mapquest.com/
Uses Navteq map data, BTW. Guess they were better at negotiating a licensing deal than Microsoft...
whistler-nl said:
Maybe Navigon Navigator does'nt support your region but for 95% of the users Navigator IS a decent navigation app (and version 4 should to be released soon to the market i read somewhere).
There will never be an OS that will fully forfill YOUR needs but when it does what the majority of users want it's on the right way.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's all well and dandy for those that have access to it. But there are many areas in Asia that still have no way to navigate offline.
It seems to me that a majority want WIFI tethering to avoid having 2 data plans, The same reason I want it.
My 4 year old Nokia had WIFI tethering and world GPS maps.
I do love this OS. I am hopping Nokia maps will make it our way soon.
---------- Post added at 10:06 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:54 AM ----------
Bl4ke said:
This is pretty much the reason I can't see myself switching. I have an iPhone. Why do I want to move to a platform where I can do less than I already can? I really want certain apps on WP7 before I move or I just cannot justify moving. It may be an unimportant app to most people, but an app like Grindr is something I don't want my platform without. Not to mention I have a free turn-by-turn app with iOS(which I believe Nokia is going to be addressing, and is most likely the hardware I'd be buying if I got a Windows Phone).
A lot of people on here(from what I've noticed) are saying that WP7 needs to get more unique apps. While that's nice and all, I want already existing apps. Most of my friends also have iPhones, and I don't want them to tell me to pull up an app and be unable to. I don't really care about the "look what my phone can do and yours can't." I care about being able to do all that they can at the very least.
Many people on here care about games and think that could be the main selling point of WP7. I just don't see it happening. While it's a small sample size, most people I've met pretty much only pick up simple games like Angry Birds or Cut the Rope(if that). I just don't feel that a large majority of smart phone owners want to play action-packed RPGs on their phones. We have computers and consoles for that. And while it might be a nice novelty to be able to once in a while, again, the only games people I know as well as myself play are the simple pick it up for a few minutes and put it back down games.
Next comes the photography apps. I almost never take pictures, but many, many people do. I don't have a WP7 to compare apps with, but I'm curious what the photo apps on there are like. I have Camera+, Hipstamatic, and Instagram on my phone. How do non-native apps(and I guess the native app) on WP7 stack up to those? I hope Nokia will save the day in terms of excellent camera quality, but the in-app editing is also a pretty important feature to me(when I do actually take pictures) and others.
The Windows Phone OS looks pretty amazing, but I just can't justify moving until it can do all that my iPhone can in terms of apps relevant to me. I'm hoping by WP8 it will be all I want and more, and just maybe it will be able to suck me out of the Apple ecosystem. The live tiles are a pretty excellent concept, and while it's compelling, I need more apps to be available. People almost always develop for iOS before they develop for Android or WP7, so it definitely leaves something to be desired in that department.
The only thing I'd be pleased with is the fact that Skype integration is coming. On that token, I already have a Skype app with video calling on the iPhone. So Microsoft has definitely got to step up their game, get existing apps on this platform at all costs, and make sure their own in-house apps completely blow the other platforms' alternatives away.
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Click to collapse
Great post Bl4ke.
The cross platform apps are a must for WP7.
I still cannot believe Skype is not available for WP7. My friends laugh when I tell them I do not have Skype on my phone.
It is a disappointment ... coming to WP7 from Android ... I patiently heard the argument that the apps will come once mango is here ... and considering such quick deployment of the update, I was hoping the developers will take notice and flood the market with apps... instead all I see on the marketplace is the same set of apps being repeated in the featured section ...
1. There isnt a decent chat client for WP7
2. Youtube playback seems to be slow
3. No third party browsers ... IE9 does not support text reflow ... i see myself scrolling sideways and downwards ...
4. Bing navigation is so crippled ... thanks to their deal with Navteq
5. Facebook client looks ancient .. Twitter client is marginally better ... where are the live tiles though ?
I can continue ranting but honestly, I feel really sad about how slowly the new apps are coming in ... It was almost the same when I was with Symbian and the Ovi store basically did not grow ... I sometimes get so annoyed with WP7 that I wish to put my sim back in my LG Optimus One (a very midrange phone) ... but heck, I can do a lot more with it ...
k4ce said:
It is a disappointment ... coming to WP7 from Android ... I patiently heard the argument that the apps will come once mango is here ... and considering such quick deployment of the update, I was hoping the developers will take notice and flood the market with apps... instead all I see on the marketplace is the same set of apps being repeated in the featured section ...
1. There isnt a decent chat client for WP7
2. Youtube playback seems to be slow
3. No third party browsers ... IE9 does not support text reflow ... i see myself scrolling sideways and downwards ...
4. Bing navigation is so crippled ... thanks to their deal with Navteq
5. Facebook client looks ancient .. Twitter client is marginally better ... where are the live tiles though ?
I can continue ranting but honestly, I feel really sad about how slowly the new apps are coming in ... It was almost the same when I was with Symbian and the Ovi store basically did not grow ... I sometimes get so annoyed with WP7 that I wish to put my sim back in my LG Optimus One (a very midrange phone) ... but heck, I can do a lot more with it ...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am coming from WM 6.5 and its an utter let down and nothing but regrets..
following are some apps which dosent need any further API release, nor any hardware shortcoming:
A 'decent' wallet app. (code wallet pro)
A decent agenda and appointments app (pocket informant)
A call monitoring app, calculating PEAK/offpeak/weekend minutes (phone dashboard) Basic call times is missing from call history.
An application to send SMS on particular time and date, like a SMS scheduler.
SMS backup application.
A Data monitor to calculate how much 3G/WIFI data I am using, weekly/daily/monthly/yearly.
A call/SMS blocker.
Audio recorder to record incoming/outgoing calls automatically. (resco audio recorder)
Last good game which lasted more than one day from start to finish was on 5/18/11: plant vs. zombies. You dont need APIs to make a good nor is their any hardware limitation. There were games in begining but now its just pathetic.. COLLAPSE? Burn the Rope? I mean seriously.. Why we still call it a 'smartphone' with dumb games like that?
All the apps right now are so basic.. and all the 'mango' updates have been equally basic. I guess mango was all about flipping that tile to show other side.. thats it.. we got the flipping tile.. NOW WHAT? WTF can I do more with this phone than just stare at that flipping tile??
Quality apps take time to make. MS did give a decent window to prepare apps, and Kinsoft apps was able to get their apps updated, but we only enabled fast resume - the easiest Mango feature to add. Some of these other features/API's take more time to add or even require a ground-up approach. So give it time.
Wp7 is new. You knew what you were getting yourself into when you bought into the platform.
WP7 won't be perfect overnight. Takes time. If you don't have the patience or certain features are as vital to you as oxygen then by all means sell your wp7 and jump to the flourishing app store of iOS or Android.
Sent from my HTC HD7 using XDA Windows Phone 7 App