HTC Desire FOTA update 1.21.405.2 PROBLEMS - Desire General

Hi everyone,
Latest Desire update has ben bringin a lot of problems to a lot of people. Apparently Wi-fi is not working properly, missing apps in the market which are already installed on the phone, battery issues....to name few. This affects branded and non branded phones...as far as I know.
I already contacted HTC and Vodafone (because in this case my update came thru Vodafone with a different firmware number but in fact it's exaclty same update) and they are sending me back and forth to each other. Bad service... Both companies are not willing to help at this moment.
A good example are ADW Launcher and LauncherPro. Both launcher can't be found in the Market anymore (check comments on developer's websites). People are downloading apks from their websites directly. Also QuickSettings is not to be found anywhere.
Wi-fi is not working for some of us.
And some people mentioned that battery life has dramatically improved/got worse.
WHAT'S HAPPENING?!?!?!?!
Has anyone experienced similar problems??? And better one....does anyone has a solution? Preferably without having to root your phone.

Quite a few problems here already mate

Endless problems. My phone will now loose it's connection to Orange. I have to reboot the phone to get it back. Sometimes it takes 3 or 4 reboots. Switching to Airplane mode only works sometimes, but usually results in my phone then telling me I do not have a SIM card inserted! Poor. Every time this happens, Wavesecure thinks someone has swapped my SIM out, and locks the phone up. Had to remove wavesecure (which is actually ridiculously easy so I wont be putting it back on) and I miss most of my calls.
Factory reset my phone in anticipation of what I knew HTC support would say. Did not put on any apps, left it as factory reset, all default settings, did not set google sync up. 7 hours later...no signal. SIM card works just fine in every other handset I've tried.
Phone is going back to HTC on Monday. If it returns in the same messed up state, i'll be looking at getting it rooted and having a proper radio and customr 2.2 ROM installed. I decided against rooting to avoid any bugs/issues. Seems that it's the likes of XDA and MoDaCo devs who know what they are doing more than HTC do. But I am new to Android. Lesson learnt.
I've had about 19 phones since 1998, and this is by far the most expensive, and the first one that has struggled with actually being a phone. Pathetic. HTC you'd better shine with your customer support. I have two friends with HTCs on pre-order on the strength of this phone. Mess this up and they'll cancel their orders and I can't blame them.
Motorolla anyone? Can you make and recieve calls on them? Yes? Hmmmm.......

I have updated my Desire which has not been altered in anyway and it now has a nifty text count next to the persons name whom the conversation is to. However my Desire now has to load to conversation and texts every time instead of previously just popping up. It also lags when i send a text when it updates the conversation. Is there any way round this as the phone was perfect until this why fix what was not broken

Has anyone had problems with their GPS since updating? Mine wont work at all now :-(

Erm.... this is a little embarrassing but I feel I need to own up to prevent misleading anyone. As mentioned in my earlier post in this thread, I have arranged with HTC customer support to send my Desire back for repair. They pick it up Monday.
I bought a cheap £10 phone to keep me going. It arrived this morning. I put the SIM card in and powered up the phone.
"No SIM card instered" was the message it greeted me with. After numerous power-up and power downs, and some SIM card hoakee-coakee, it finally recognised the SIM card......then dropped the signal to Orange. EXACTLY what my HTC Desire did.
Doh.
I had tried the SIM card in another phone (my girlfriends Blackberry) when the problems first started and it had worked straight away. But the SIM card seems to be random in it's failures. Should have tested more rigorously.
Sorry guys but in my instance it seems I have simply a faulty SIM card. The first one I have ever had go wrong in 12 years, but there you go. I was too fast to blame Android/HTC.

Weird. I have none of these issues.
My WiFi works fine.
I don't know about missing apps, my phone came preloaded with 1.21.405.2
Also, my battery is AMAZING. Right now it's on 70% While it's not been charged for 10h 40m 33s. And that is with 3G and quite some instant messaging.
And I just searched the market for ADW Launcher and LauncherPro. Could find them both.

Hi,
I updated my desire yesterday and since then i cannot send texts and constantly seem to be on 'limited' service or a very weak signal. i am on 02 as are other members of the household who are not experiencing any problems.
I've tried the quick fix of putting it in airplane mode but makes no difference what-so-ever.

wnp_79 said:
Endless problems. My phone will now loose it's connection to Orange. I have to reboot the phone to get it back. Sometimes it takes 3 or 4 reboots. Switching to Airplane mode only works sometimes, but usually results in my phone then telling me I do not have a SIM card inserted! Poor. Every time this happens, Wavesecure thinks someone has swapped my SIM out, and locks the phone up. Had to remove wavesecure (which is actually ridiculously easy so I wont be putting it back on) and I miss most of my calls.
Factory reset my phone in anticipation of what I knew HTC support would say. Did not put on any apps, left it as factory reset, all default settings, did not set google sync up. 7 hours later...no signal. SIM card works just fine in every other handset I've tried.
Phone is going back to HTC on Monday. If it returns in the same messed up state, i'll be looking at getting it rooted and having a proper radio and customr 2.2 ROM installed. I decided against rooting to avoid any bugs/issues. Seems that it's the likes of XDA and MoDaCo devs who know what they are doing more than HTC do. But I am new to Android. Lesson learnt.
I've had about 19 phones since 1998, and this is by far the most expensive, and the first one that has struggled with actually being a phone. Pathetic. HTC you'd better shine with your customer support. I have two friends with HTCs on pre-order on the strength of this phone. Mess this up and they'll cancel their orders and I can't blame them.
Motorolla anyone? Can you make and recieve calls on them? Yes? Hmmmm.......
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Good luck with HTC's crappy repair centre. Mine's been in three times and they've sent it back once with dust under the screen, and once with a scratch -- every time taking longer than a week.

Still having problems here-the signal is loads better today but still cannot send or recieve texts...the odd one will get through but thats after its been sat retrying for half an hour.
Can make and recieve calls no problem.
Have also noticed the display is very slow to respond on a swipe, sometimes takes several attempts to move between homescreens.
I wish I'd not bothered with the update...if it ain't broke.....

Related

Major problem

Hello all.
I just got my HTC Desire yesterday, sweet phone I must say. I have a big problem though which has me on the very edge of sending it back.
The problem is that it reboots itself quite often, for example if I'm making a call or answering. It also does this when I'm on youtube or practically doing anything that demands a lot of memory. The only thing I've had no problems with is text messaging, which works fine. Anyways, since it's a phone I would love to be able to making calls with it (the longest call was about 4 minutes before the phone rebooted itself)..
Since I'm not sure whether this is a hard- or software problem I'm not sure whether to send it back. I have reinstalled it three times, two from Android and once by doing the whole press volume button down procedure. My question is, and it's urgent, Is there anything else I can do to "fix" it before I send it back? Or is this simply a hardware problem?
I'd really not want to send it if I don't have to since the guy I spoke to said that they have no clue as when they will get more in. They are sold out atm.
Please help!
Regards
the_swede
Well, it definitely shouldn't be doing that, so I think you should call your operator and arrange a replacement to be sent chop chop.
Absolutely, never had that happen to me
Dude, it needs to go back. My phone hasn't rebooted once since getting it last weekend.
I had the same problem arranged T-Mobile to replace it. Don't keep it pal get exchanged immediately.
you could try installing the generic htc rom using goldcard
I wouldn't even bother with that.
Hard reset and if it still does it, get it sent back.
I have not had any resets yet either,
You'll regret it afterwards, if you don't send back because simply it is a faulty model, reset won't make a difference. I have bought four of these and only one turned out this problem and had it swapped next day.
If the supplier is out of stock then just wait for stock to arrive and exchange it when it does.
Okay, thank you guys. I'll send it back.
Thing is that I'll have to wait until the next shipment to the store I ordered it from, and I've already been waiting since February for the bugger
Anyway, thanks again.
I found my SD card was not inseted properly and that seemed to lead to unpredictable behaviour from the Desire.

dropped calls/no signal

Hi all, i know this is a well talked about subject as i have done numerous google/ask searches, i find an awful lot but don't really seem to get any answers, over the last week i must have read hundreds of pages so please anyone who is going to tell me to google this problem, please don't as i have until i could scream lol......anyway, this is the problem i am having......
Hubby bought the HTC desire on ORANGE but then decided he wanted an iphone4 so he gave his desire to me, i am a vodafone user, as we have teenage children and the freedom/family packs are such good value, i wanted to stay on vodafone so i got the phone unlocked with an unlock code at my local mobile fone shop...hubby had never used it as a phone, just as a gadget to mess about on so we weren't aware there was any problems.... the problems i am having are these...i can't get the phone to hold a call, if i use wmcda only mode, its slightly better and i can usually get a call out but it will drop out if i stay on the line to long, if i use gsm only then i can't get a call out at all, the phone stays silent for a few seconds and then just drops out......on both settings the signal is fluctuating like mad and often gives me a x where my signal should be, i love the phone as a gadget but at the moment im not getting much luck with it as a phone.....a few things i thought may be to blame are
could it be the way the fone shop unlocked it??
i have used the same sim card (voda) for around 4+ years, could i need a better sim???
could it be because all the settings on the phone belong to orange and arn't set up to use on voda??
i have read on a few sites where people have returned these phones only to be given another one that has the same issues where others have recieved another hand set and the problem is solved but some people say they have no call dropping/signal issues at all and love the phone....im confused, i have been looking around the site and seen peopl are using custom roms and/or debranding the phone, could that help with my issues??
if anyone can help me i would really appreciate it ...
thanks in advance
emma......ps sorry for such a long post
Try with another SIM card. If it works, then your current SIM is broken, if it doesn't work, it's most likely the phone causing problems.
Sent from my HTC Desire using XDA App
How did you get the phone unlocked, if it was with code, which is the most common method you shouldn't have any problems?
yes it was with a code, apparantly they get those codes from HTC themselves, i did try an orange sim card in it, it wasn't much better, my sim card can't be broken as i have it in my old iphone 2g, which i have had to go back to at the moment, HTC will get my phone very soon to have a look at as ups have just picked it up, i'll post back when i have my new/repaired device....thanks

HELP! My phone gets hot and restarts! Please look for more info inside!

Hello dear friends!
HTC let me down Kind of stupid phones indeed at least desire...
I have my phone for quite a time now, it is rooted with unrewoked, clockwork recovery and s-on. I flashed many different roms in the past and everything was brilliant. In a pas half-a-year or so I stayed with only one ROM - MIUI-Au. I kept updating it to the newer versions and so on and on. Never had any random reboot or something. At least maybe it was because of some strange app or something else. But now it started to reboot randomly and constantly!
Phone gets hot abit and it just reboots, and never comes to android homescreen again, until I put out the battery, hold it for few minutes, pop it back and then it boots. But as soon as start to play music, or run a game the phone gets hot abit and reboots again. and so on and on. I thought maybe it was a miui issue. So I tried to flash different roms, but guess what? None of the even boot! The main screen shows and with the same second it bootloops again and forever!... (
Even from recovery it sometimes reboots randomly. So i managed somehow to flash my miui back and it at least boots. But it is very unstable now, I barely can use my phone now
PLEASE WHO CAN HELP ME????
My warranty probably out of date, and my phone is rooted, I dont think HTC would accept it...
any thoughts? friends?
What have you set the CPU max to?
Sent from my HTC Desire using xda premium
Thank you for response! Appreciate, really!! I didn't set it, I left everything by default I think! Because as i said, i even tried flashing different roms, not only miui.
What else could be? By the way, with stock froyo rom If I remember correctly, sometimes it became extremely hot, but I didnt get any reboots from that. But now, it gets just a little bit hot and it seems that this causes the reboot...
Now what I just noticed, I get reboots even when the phone is idle. And it is not even warm!
If its not getting hot then I'm confused lol. It sounds like a actual hardware fault. Sorry I can't help with this one
Sent from my HTC Desire using xda premium
cluendo said:
My warranty probably out of date, and my phone is rooted, I dont think HTC would accept it...
any thoughts? friends?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
try and get it taken back to stock if you dare.
The phone hasn't been out 2 years yet, which is how long the warranty is.
Thank you! But is there any possibility to fix it without HTC involvement? Maybe it is not hardware issue ? Can it be because phone is rooted and I flashed many roms to it ? I didnt try AOSP roms since reboots started, I will try to pop in Cyanogenmod or other and see if I will get reboots.
Would rerooting my phone and updating my recovery fix the problem?
and Note: yesterday I tried to S-OFF my phone, but I can't even do that with my unstable MIUI. It rebooted in the middle of the process..
I had a similar problem, apparently it's not uncommon on the early revisions. I sent mine to HTC and they replaced the mainboard.
Thank you for answer! But what if my phone is bought through a contractor?
Can just call HTC and ask the for repair? Or should I contact my contractor first ?
Just give them a call and they will try to help you out. I had a very good customer service experience with them when my desire had some issues.
They will require a proof of purchase though. If you managed to get the receipt from your "contractor" (I am unsure what you mean by a contractor), then there should be no problem.
Sorry for misleading word, I meant T-Mobile. I bought my phone under contract. I think I have a receipt. I even have whole box and stuff of the phone somewhere in my drawer.(just sayin ). So how is customer service of HTC? Poor, good ? I heard you need to tell them that you did a factory reset and that didn't help. Is that true. Also if I will unroot my phone, will they know it was rooted anyhow?
Ahhh....this overheating issue seems common. How they can release faulty phones?? No clue.
thanks for answers mates!
In Singapore, HTC service is really good. Phone was still under warranty.
It took me just one (real) call to confirm a repair order. The first call I was just checking to see what options were available to me.
The second call was an actual repair request. And the third call was me pestering them for a pickup date. heehee
In Singapore, repairs were done via courier. They picked it up and 1 working day later, they sent it back.
Naturally, you will probably need to impress upon them that you tried everything to fix your phone (which I hope you did which includes proving to yourself that it's not the ROMs fault).
You will definitely need to reset everything back to zero. In my case, I downloaded an RUU to totally reset everything back to STOCK, which included removing clockworkmod recovery. You WILL need to create a goldcard for this though so bear in mind that it's not exactly a case of a simple flashing procedure. At least not if you don't already have a goldcard.
Sorry if I overread it at some point, but you speculated at the beginning there could be some faulty app causing this, but you never meantioned performing a full wipe. Have you full wiped yet? Just to make sure it is indeed no software problem.
greets
Thank you for your answers. At the moment I have SuperNova classic ROM. ( 2.3.3 + Sense 2.1) But my phone crashes again and again, it is so annoying and causes me so much trouble.
I never tried a reset or unroot and return to original rom. Im just wondering now, would this help to remove or at least remove those reboots?
Today I was in my work and i was keeping my phone in my jeans pocket. it got hot as u would expect when keeping in pocket and suddenly it rebooten, then it went into a bootloop and started to bootloop 7 times in a row quickly. then again and again. It became very hot at that time.
For the interest, what exact hardware faults causes these reboots and why phone gets even hotter if you keep it on boot loop. If I keep phone cold, the rom usualy stays normal, without reboots. but as soon as I start using my phone, texting or calling for at least 5minutes of using it just reboots.
as I said- really annoying thing :S
I remember my happy times with miui, apps and no reboots Was fun!
cheers for helping!
I would give full wipe / factory reset a chance, and maybe RUU.
At least try it before sending phone to htc.
It is hardware problem, search forum. Fresh ROM without SD card, enabled WIFI and GPS, running G navigation, back of the phone is warm - restart after few minutes.
Maybe someone know how to read info form the phone right before reset? We could understand why the phone is reseting and hopefully add some patch.
Reboot-loop experience
Hey,
i had the same problem over the last few months: In the beginning my phone restarted only when it got hot, but it got worse over the last few weeks, in the end i was not able to use two apps at the same time (music and mytracks) or even to surf the internet longer than a few minutes. The problem did noticeably decrease when the phone was cool - tested by putting it on a fan or in the fridge. Yet, Skype was regularly killing it. As i really love my phone (and especially the AMOLED-Screen!) i did not want to resign. The battery cover contains some metal which is supposed to enhance heat dissipation - so i attached a little thermal pad to the hotter bottom of the phone to improve contact with the head spreader. Unfortunately it did not entirely fix the problem. Yes, it improved the situation a little, but it got even worse after a week or two - in the end i had to turn it in.
So i decided to take it to the Telekom-Shop. They were very kind and told me they would call the other day to confirm that the replacement would have been shipped. It took a few days longer, but i got a phone with the AMOLED-Screen! The employee said it was a used mainboard in a new case, completely refurbished. They only replaced the main unit, i kept the battery, sd-card, charger and so on. Now i have a working Desire again!
Terminator
Similar?
Hi i on the other hand have similar problem, qiute anoying one, my desire, cm7 hboot, s-off, insert coin cm7 rom, have phone freezing in diferent situations, sometimes its working sometimes just freezez and i need to get battery out and turn it one and sometimes several times in row to get it working again???? RUU and go to give phone in service? plaese advice?
@cp6ija Sandisk SD card? If yes, smash it.
nvm
cant delete post so just posting gibberish

[Q] Wifi Error - Will not activate

Hello everyone.
I'm having the same issue as quite a LOT of DHD owners, the same issue that seems to have no actual answer (I've done a lot of searching).
I get an Error whenever I try to turn on my wireless or wireless hotspot.
I have a non-rooted, no custom-ROM, Unlocked, Telus coded HTC Desire HD updated to Android 2.3.5 w/ HTC Sense 3.0. I am currently on Rogers Wireless, but the problem started while I was with Telus. I've spoken with Telus techs already, and the ones I've spoken with are completely incompetent and I'm really not sure why they work in that department. (I know it's mean but I know for a fact that most, if not all, of the Telus agents are 3rd party contracted employees that work for a contact centre, and they only get, and use, information that is provided by Telus. Most of the information is useless for these kind of issues.)
I noticed my wireless acting strange after the update came out (yes I know it was a long time ago). I had gotten the error half a dozen times, but a soft reboot would always fix it. I didn't unlock my phone until February, 2013. The issue started in... June or July 2012, I think..
I dropped my phone a couple times, landing on the left top hand corner once or twice, didn't get an error. Then one day I just wasn't able to get my wireless to work at all. Tethering worked fine until I unlocked it and moved from Telus to Rogers.
I've been unable to use wireless connectivity for half a year now, and after switching to Rogers Wireless (Telus doesn't cover the area that I now live in), I lost the 5gb data plan that I had, and only have 1gb data per month. I am quite a power user, and I now really need wireless connectivity so that I don't have to worry about going over my data limit. Sad to say but Rogers has terribly expensive plans.
I have tried:
-Cleaning battery cover contacts
-Hard reset (removing battery & waiting a few minutes before turning back on)
-Factory Reset (once, but now I'm afraid to lose all of my contacts that I can't seem to figure out how to back-up [if anyone has any advice on this off-topic, it would be nice to hear about that])
-adding IP/Gateway configuration
-Opening a ticket with HTC (I haven't had a reply from them in a week)
-Speaking to the [unknowledgable] techs at Telus
-Google
-Many android forum searches, including XDA, that lead to no actual answer, or answers that lead to custom ROMS (Which I'm trying to avoid because I can't seem to figure out how to properly install one)
I don't know what else to try, I love this phone and I don't want to have to spend $600 for a new one. (I hate contracts, and I'm currently on a month-to-month with Rogers Wireless)
If one of you can solve this problem, I swear I will give you all dah loves. :3
-MrPhooey
Try buying a new battery cover and sim cover can work sometimes.
Sent from my Reborn Desire HD in another dimension...
That thanks button doesn't bite
HTC finally got back to me with a decent reply. The one who emailed me advised that I try a Wipe Cache Partition. I haven't done that yet, so I'm going to try and see what happens I suppose.
Update: Still nothing. Will have to try something else.
Hey Phooey. I have a similar issue with my DHD and people have been about as helpful as they can be without a logcat to search for errors. Here is the thread I started on my issue: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2269203. Tried to get HTC to fix it but they were no help at all.
I suggest you make a logcat and attach it to this thread so a dev can peruse it and hopefully help you out.
I'll definitely try that. I read through your thread and I'm starting to think that it could possibly be a hardware issue with my phone as well, seeing as the problem didn't start until I dropped it without the case on. I'm just happy DHDs have a nice sturdy construction.
Sent from my HTC Desire HD A9191 using xda app-developers app
Make sure the "flash" panel is secure (gps antennae are behind it - wifi too maybe, not sure). Tethering can be detect by a phone network so wouldnt surprise me if they could stop it too! Contacts can be automatically backed up with your google account in settings/accounts/google and make sure contacts is ticked, as a secondary precaution you could use something like "my backup" off google play to backup things like contacts calendar entrys call log etc and also the apps you have installed.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.rerware.android.MyBackup
If you go down the route of rooting you could try different roms to see if the problem persists across severel roms and if so then that would indicate a hardware issue
hello....
i have htc desire hd.
it is showing wifi error since i have dropped it from my hand.
since then i have tried something but did'nt work.i don't how to solve it.
if someone knows the solution for it then plz help.
THANK YOU!!!!!!
Hello all, am looking for a parnter who knows how to repairs phones and who is ready to extend his or her business in Sierra Leone, West Africa.
Josephus Sankoh
+23276546804
[email protected]
Exactly what has happened to me and my old (but faithful) HTC Desire. Did you get a solution?
(I am going to try this htcdesireforum.com/htc-desire-troubleshooting/wifi-'error'-after-installing-android-2-2/msg9369/#msg9369 )
Dialling a code worked for me.
Mr_Phooey said:
Hello everyone.
I'm having the same issue as quite a LOT of DHD owners, the same issue that seems to have no actual answer (I've done a lot of searching).
I get an Error whenever I try to turn on my wireless or wireless hotspot.
I have a non-rooted, no custom-ROM, Unlocked, Telus coded HTC Desire HD updated to Android 2.3.5 w/ HTC Sense 3.0. I am currently on Rogers Wireless, but the problem started while I was with Telus. I've spoken with Telus techs already, and the ones I've spoken with are completely incompetent and I'm really not sure why they work in that department. (I know it's mean but I know for a fact that most, if not all, of the Telus agents are 3rd party contracted employees that work for a contact centre, and they only get, and use, information that is provided by Telus. Most of the information is useless for these kind of issues.)
I noticed my wireless acting strange after the update came out (yes I know it was a long time ago). I had gotten the error half a dozen times, but a soft reboot would always fix it. I didn't unlock my phone until February, 2013. The issue started in... June or July 2012, I think..
I dropped my phone a couple times, landing on the left top hand corner once or twice, didn't get an error. Then one day I just wasn't able to get my wireless to work at all. Tethering worked fine until I unlocked it and moved from Telus to Rogers.
I've been unable to use wireless connectivity for half a year now, and after switching to Rogers Wireless (Telus doesn't cover the area that I now live in), I lost the 5gb data plan that I had, and only have 1gb data per month. I am quite a power user, and I now really need wireless connectivity so that I don't have to worry about going over my data limit. Sad to say but Rogers has terribly expensive plans.
I have tried:
-Cleaning battery cover contacts
-Hard reset (removing battery & waiting a few minutes before turning back on)
-Factory Reset (once, but now I'm afraid to lose all of my contacts that I can't seem to figure out how to back-up [if anyone has any advice on this off-topic, it would be nice to hear about that])
-adding IP/Gateway configuration
-Opening a ticket with HTC (I haven't had a reply from them in a week)
-Speaking to the [unknowledgable] techs at Telus
-Google
-Many android forum searches, including XDA, that lead to no actual answer, or answers that lead to custom ROMS (Which I'm trying to avoid because I can't seem to figure out how to properly install one)
I don't know what else to try, I love this phone and I don't want to have to spend $600 for a new one. (I hate contracts, and I'm currently on a month-to-month with Rogers Wireless)
If one of you can solve this problem, I swear I will give you all dah loves. :3
-MrPhooey
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
----
I had the same Wifi error on my phone when I try to turn ON it showed me "Error" . MAC Address was also showed " unavailable ".
Try dialling *#*#526#*#* on the phone keypad. This worked for me.
HTC Desire HD A9191 (Ace) DHD Gingerbred 2.3.5 Stock ROM

Anyone having problems with HTC Repair?

My 10 doesnt like to receive calls, it seems the problem hasnt been fixed using all the various software procedures (flash, RUU,...). Strange because I get calls sometimes, other times they simply get sent to voicemail. Also checked with carrier, no problems.
Authorized device exchange nearly 2 months ago, and HTC still has not said any word of swapping my device. The service is terrible, they keep telling me they have no further information. HTC placed a hold on my card the same day I authorized it. Long story short, I am not getting any updates, and Im left with a works 50% of the time device, it hasnt been a year even...
Anyone else having a hard time with HTC?
On principle I should never buy HTC again... too bad, i love this phone
I had a lot of trouble with an exchange several months back. I'm not going to go into detail because it was too painful. There's another thread somewhere around in these sections about this subject.

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