Develop Bugs

HTC Mozart - WP7

Hey everyone,
Just letting you know of something I found at work. It's a HTC device called Mozart which looks like it'll be a WP7 device and to be sold pretty soon.
I can't seem to add the image though because I'm a new user. Ok I've added it in now
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Cheers,
Vertex214

Well, can you upload the picture somewhere else and post a link? URLs aren't allowed for new users either, but you can post it in an "h t t p: / / something.com" format.

It's an HTC Desire with a very bad photoshop'ed WP7 home screen on it... You can still see the Android Home screen on the left ...

NoWorthWhile said:
It's an HTC Desire with a very bad photoshop'ed WP7 home screen on it... You can still see the Android Home screen on the left ...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yea... wtf??? Was this just someone's cruel prank or someone at telstra just being lazy in lieu of not having an actual "Mozart" device picture?

Dunno, could be anything. But that picture is NOT a WP7.

Perhaps someone in the marketing department quickly whipped it up? Not exactly a telling leak anyways - we know HTC is building WP7 devices right?

chuck232 said:
Perhaps someone in the marketing department quickly whipped it up? Not exactly a telling leak anyways - we know HTC is building WP7 devices right?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah but where are the rumours?!

HTC Mozart is a real Device.
Its going to TMOUS that is one fact, Telstra is new to me, but very likely.

conflipper said:
HTC Mozart is a real Device.
Its going to TMOUS that is one fact, Telstra is new to me, but very likely.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm not claiming the opposite. I'm just talking about the picture

conflipper said:
HTC Mozart is a real Device.
Its going to TMOUS that is one fact, Telstra is new to me, but very likely.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
any eta on release

I do understand that no-one would want to believe me because I have no rep. or real hard evidence. Only this document from Telstra. I agree that if you look closely to the image it looks dodgy, but I wouldn't expect a telecommunications company to create a fake phone name and image. Again, I completely understand that it would be hard to trust me with this.
This is the only info I can find on the device on both the net and at work. Hopefully I'll be able to find some more info on it

vertex214 said:
I do understand that no-one would want to believe me because I have no rep. or real hard evidence. Only this document from Telstra. I agree that if you look closely to the image it looks dodgy, but I wouldn't expect a telecommunications company to create a fake phone name and image. Again, I completely understand that it would be hard to trust me with this.
This is the only info I can find on the device on both the net and at work. Hopefully I'll be able to find some more info on it
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I believe that your pic is real but there's no way that the phone is a graphic/picture of an actual HTC Mozart WP7 device. It doesn't have the right buttons and you can see the android home screen to the left of the WP7 home screen. It's not unlikely that the rest of the info (name, pricing, street date, etc) is legit (and conflipper backed it up) but the phone image definitely isn't.

RustyGrom said:
I believe that your pic is real but there's no way that the phone is a graphic/picture of an actual HTC Mozart WP7 device. It doesn't have the right buttons and you can see the android home screen to the left of the WP7 home screen. It's not unlikely that the rest of the info (name, pricing, street date, etc) is legit (and conflipper backed it up) but the phone image definitely isn't.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, that is what I meant in my first post. Don't take it wrong, OP, we do trust the picture is real and that some kind of WP7 "Mozart" is coming, but that device is not the Mozart. Sorry for not being clear
Keep us posted if you find anything new!

vertex214 said:
... Only this document from Telstra. I agree that if you look closely to the image it looks dodgy, but I wouldn't expect a telecommunications company to create a fake phone name and image...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I used to work for Vodafone connections in the UK and they're always making 'mock-up' images until the official release is due. They used to use images from existing phones and change some of the screens/buttons on the images.
Similar to how HTC seem to have the image for the Touch HD in the Mondrain ROM but with different buttons.

Yeah I agree that picture is definetly not what the device is going to look like if it's real. That looks pretty sketchy to me, but I'd love to see a WP7 device hit TMUS ASAP!

The pic is fake, but I think the phone itself may be real

Telstra were slated to be one of the first carriers in Aus with Windows Phone 7. This could be the first?

conflipper said:
HTC Mozart is a real Device.
Its going to TMOUS that is one fact, Telstra is new to me, but very likely.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Could i have a source on that would like to read about it in a little more details

Hojlind said:
Could i have a source on that would like to read about it in a little more details
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
conflipper probably is the source and when conflipper claims something then it's highly probable of being true.

Helmore said:
conflipper probably is the source and when conflipper claims something then it's highly probable of being true.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The source is a leaked rom what isn't available for all users

First signs of a Froyo delay?

Seen this:
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at samsung mobile singapur's facebook page (http://www.facebook.com/SamsungMobileSingapore?v=wall&viewas=0)
Don't know if it's, as some people posted after flashing jph, good news.

since JPH is still buggy, they'd better work harder and give it some time

[highlight]Mod Edit: Racial profiling/slurs are not allowed on XDA nor tolerated. Next time, I will ban you permanently[/highlight]

6 Days To supposedly release
http://www.timeanddate.com/counters...&month=09&day=23&hour=12&min=00&sec=00&p0=195

It wouldn't surprise me.. Software development is never a definitive process. It's impossible to determine how long something will take. Sometimes it takes quicker than expected, sometimes longer.

as i said elsewhere, if they cancel release and work on it further before releasing it's a good thing for us.
if they release the current version they will prolly stop working on fixing the important stuff
if they dont and delay further it means they have realized the "important stuff" REQUIRES fixing before release
in a nutshell:
- RFS performance (replacement would be neat but they are too proud of their own FS or smth.. weird)
- GPS accuracy ( /pray ?)
- Reported critical software bugs (exchange, etc)
Luckily they read XDA

Just a question - how is this question for development section?

LockeSGS said:
<CENSORED>
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Reported. Please take that racist [email protected]# elsewhere, or if you think you're THAT cool, show me what YOU can do better! Kernel patch to fix lag, stereo FM radio, longer battery life, etc. would do.

siddspain said:
Seen this:
at samsung mobile singapur's facebook page (http://www.facebook.com/SamsungMobileSingapore?v=wall&viewas=0)
Don't know if it's, as some people posted after flashing jph, good news.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Please note that this message is for the Singapure upgrade:
Jerahmeel Zacky Chua So Galaxy S was first released in SG... Are we the first to get Froyo too?
Wednesday at 5:09pm · Flag
2 people like this.
Samsung Mobile Singapore Hi Jerahmeel, unfortunately not. Europe will be getting it first. SG should still be getting at end of Sep.

Samsung UK mobile on twitter are still giving out the "end of September " answer on Twitter so...... who knows. I'd say samsung but I'm starting to doubt that!

We'll just have to wait and see right?
I prefer they another week or 2 to really finalize it and fix all the bugs before releasing instead of rushing for a release which only disappoints.

cheers man, I am personally not offended but some people might be a bit more PC

ontopic: i wouldn't mind upgrading to froyo knowing it had bugs, but at the same time knowing it would get updated within a reasonable time frame. the problem we have with samsung (apart from having to put up with their developing "skills") is that they are very quiet. you only find out about stuff per semi-dodgy twitter or facebook accounts.

very likely samsung is rushing froyo to pre-empt the Desire HD which ships with froyo. (and early previews seems to indicate a very mature froyo at that) and latest reports says the Desire HD may even ship a week earlier...so our buddy Mr Sam Sung is in a bit of a bind here....lol.
rushed the 2.1 to pre-empt the iphone4 and now trying to rush 2.2 to pre-empt the HD....tough being mr sam.

And then they'll rush their new gingerbread phone to market and forget all about their galaxy s customers..... :/

sunwee said:
very likely samsung is rushing froyo to pre-empt the Desire HD which ships with froyo. (and early previews seems to indicate a very mature froyo at that) and latest reports says the Desire HD may even ship a week earlier...so our buddy Mr Sam Sung is in a bit of a bind here....lol.
rushed the 2.1 to pre-empt the iphone4 and now trying to rush 2.2 to pre-empt the HD....tough being mr sam.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
in a way i feel they will struggle from rushing so much...we will see

Maybe it's just how long it takes for every country to customize it or something like that. I read it somewhere.

sionyboy said:
And then they'll rush their new gingerbread phone to market and forget all about their galaxy s customers..... :/
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well if they forget about their Galaxy S customers with regard to Gingerbread, they wont be doing themselves any favours with a phone that's been on the market a less than a year.
I know new Android phones are constantly being released but Samsung will not announce a new phone as soon as Gingerbread is released.
The Galaxy S will still be a flagship product and companies will need to take a leaf out of Nokia's book.
Look how many people stuck with the likes of Nokia for many years.
Companies like Samsung producing Android phones need to start getting their act together with the OS, otherwise it'll end up as a one horse race and the likes of HTC will end up with the largest slice of the market.

I don't expect to see any proper froyo for SSGS in the near future.
However Samsung should at least release the official GPS fix within this September since this problem is already a know issue for a long time and they can have separate development between this and the froyo one.

the galaxy s line is selling very well, so i'd guess that they can not afford to let us standing in the rain when comparable htc/motorola devices get gingerbread. as to the froyo update: i hope they take their time to improve speed and fix the remaining bugs. at least for us 'power-users' (flashers) it would be preferable that they release an official froyo firmware (INCLUDING the SOURCE -> voodoo fix) but improve it further over the next month or 2...

NoDo - second half of March

http://www.mobiletechworld.com/2011/03/09/official-nodo-coming-out-in-the-second-half-of-march/

http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=985084&page=12

Tone_ said:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=985084&page=12
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah dude... it's so easy to find post 118 of that thread. The OP was right in posting this as it's own thread.

..........

I've bookmarked that link for those who, in a months time, insist on claiming there was never any set time frame. I should have done this with all of the other claims.
And if the page is somehow removed, I've copied it to paint.

MartyLK said:
I've bookmarked that link for those who, in a months time, insist on claiming there was never any set time frame. I should have done this with all of the other claims.
And if the page is somehow removed, I've copied it to paint.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Eh, there never was an official announcement that showed anything before March but at this point I'm not defending Microsoft til they give reason. It's an amazing OS but if they're just going to string people along then it's definitely losing ground in my book.

z33dev33l said:
Eh, there never was an official announcement that showed anything before March but at this point I'm not defending Microsoft til they give reason. It's an amazing OS but if they're just going to string people along then it's definitely losing ground in my book.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's how I feel. But rationally thinking, why would a company handle business this way? It makes me think they are trying to iron out something completely unexpected; trying to capitalize on a sudden resource. I think once they finally do get past the first big update, things will go smoother and faster from then on. There's no rationality to a consumer oriented company (a company making efforts to be consumer oriented) putting off its customer base. There has to be a good reason for how things are going.
Maybe MS has its hands full of the carriers. Maybe the carriers are so badly locking down MS that they can't organize well enough. Too bad MS doesn't go with a single hardware market system and run with that. They would have complete control over the whole system, much like Apple does with the iPhone. Not saying it will happen, but speculatively speaking, MS just might be headed in that direction. If the carriers are, in fact, causing all the problems, MS might just get to a point where they will have had enough and discontinue multiple hardware support and focus on one specific handset...of their choosing. Then the carriers will get taught a valuable lesson.

90 days after CES, the date is right on time.

Windows Phone 7 is good OS but it is loosing grip because of the slow update... Same happened with Windows Mobile... Seems like M$ didn't learn from it... Well let's See how well M$ can keep up with the Android and IOS.... The Update that was supposed to released in Jan is Coming is End of March.... Such an Embarrassment......
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rajivshahi said:
Windows Phone 7 is good OS but it is loosing grip because of the slow update... Same happened with Windows Mobile... Seems like M$ didn't learn from it... Well let's See how well M$ can keep up with the Android and IOS.... The Update that was supposed to released in Jan is Coming is End of March.... Such an Embarrassment......
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
for the hundredth time no one at Microsoft said anything about January.

z33dev33l said:
for the hundredth time no one at Microsoft said anything about January.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
For the 100th time; Yes they did.

Yeah they actually did, they orginally said Jan/Feb.

EDDS said:
Yeah they actually did, they orginally said Jan/Feb.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, they didn't. The assumption was made because there was a webpage hosted that had "january_update" in the URL. Assumptions were then made.

They honestly did, I remember seing it directly from a microsoft employee, not some crappy little website.

EDDS said:
They honestly did, I remember seing it directly from a microsoft employee, not some crappy little website.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, please do show some proof because I'm quite certain if that was the case it would've come up on some tech blog. All of which ive been following daily since months before the initial release of WP7. Microsoft made no official announcement aside from "Early 2011." From there they went on to say "The first 2 weeks of March." Finally we come to where we're at today.

It was supposed to have been released on the 7th, but was pulled - yet again. The latest date I have is the 22nd.
What irks me is that this update is still the same old build that's been ready for deployment since January.

emigrating said:
It was supposed to have been released on the 7th, but was pulled - yet again. The latest date I have is the 22nd.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Where are you getting this information?

z33 is correct. Microsoft's only official announcment about the first update was Q1 2011. Which doesn't end until March 31st.
There were several rumors from various tech blogs about January and then February but nowhere has an official MS announcement been made on an exact day and/or time.
I've also been following about 10 or so tech blogs since about December.

it was always Q1 for the nodo and Q3 for the mango.... MS never give out dates... no one will give out dates for the updates come on...

emigrating said:
It was supposed to have been released on the 7th, but was pulled - yet again. The latest date I have is the 22nd.
What irks me is that this update is still the same old build that's been ready for deployment since January.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And then when it comes out and has problems everyone will be crying about why they didn't beta test it more. Just relax people I want the update too but not enough to whine about it on the net. Just sayin'..

H933-any news on security update or Oreo??

So, the current Android version and security update I'm on has issues playing hdr on Netflix (everything has a brownish yellow tint). I've watched an hdr movie rental on Google Play store. Not bad, but can clearly see that it's compressed. YouTube works great. But not Netflix. Seen on many Reddit forums that the issue is resolved in the Jan security patch. Which I'm assuming they may be holding off for us Canadiens for the Oreo update.
But I cannot seem to get any solid information about if it's even planned.
Anyone else stuck with the delayed security update?

Oct 1, 2017 yes. You are not alone.
---------- Post added at 07:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:52 PM ----------
Not same phone...heard same HD issue on Netflix though. I haven't tried to replicate. But held up on the patch all the same. I have V30+

chox_g5 said:
Oct 1, 2017 yes. You are not alone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Oct? I'm on the Dec 1, 2017 security patch. Who's your carrier?

Somewhat relevant, I just received a update notice. Looks like a security patch...US998 unlocked. Perhaps they are finally making things available to North America?

vinniej said:
Somewhat relevant, I just received a update notice. Looks like a security patch...US998 unlocked. Perhaps they are finally making things available to North America?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes US received the Jan 1 security patch. It's reported to fix hdr issues. But no notice of it in Canada. Also the unlocked models are receiving oreo. Beta I think.

Simplyrobbie112 said:
Oct? I'm on the Dec 1, 2017 security patch. Who's your carrier?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Tmobile

chox_g5 said:
Tmobile
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No idea what update frquency is like for the +. But still being on Oct 1 patch. Did you check with update software on PC?

Simplyrobbie112 said:
No idea what update frquency is like for the +. But still being on Oct 1 patch. Did you check with update software on PC?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Tells me it can't be checked. Not sure what that's all about. All other parts of LG Bridge work just fine.

Simplyrobbie112 said:
Yes US received the Jan 1 security patch. It's reported to fix hdr issues. But no notice of it in Canada. Also the unlocked models are receiving oreo. Beta I think.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, it's the December patch. Just got it earlier tonight, on both my open market US998 V30+ and my wife's open US998V30. I turned off my phone on my spare V30, to wait to see the update. I want to see if LG Bridge will offer to update it and maybe download KDZ.
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Sent from my official carrier unlocked LG V30+ US998

ChazzMatt said:
No, it's the December patch. Just got it earlier tonight.
View attachment 4391597
Sent from my official carrier unlocked LG V30+ US998
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I got this update today as well on V30+ unlocked.

But I hear it fixed the hdr. Yet I'm on the Dec 1 patch, and still have hdr issues with Netflix. Maybe because I received it before the fix mine was not included?

The very, very slow Oreo update release for the V30 (H933) is disheartening. Not like this is a surprise, but it’s still frustrating.

I thought it would be out before the end of Jan. Wait and see in 2 days time if that's true I guess.

I don't care about oreo, but considering that this is their "flagship" phone, such late security patches and updates on Canadian model H933 means this will be my first and last lg phone.

My Lg V30 T-Mobile USA is still on October patch. How disappointing.

I don't know why companies these don't just release one world wide model of the phone. It would streamline updates so much easier.

ern88 said:
I don't know why companies these don't just release one world wide model of the phone. It would streamline updates so much easier.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Because that would cut out the carriers and make the phones less expensive.
Google basically tried that, and so do a few other direct to consumer OEMs. But in North America, apparently people love going to their carrier stores to get ripped off. There are very few phones Sprint will accept that are not Sprint branded phones (and I'm pretty sure exceptions involve the OEMs like Motorola paying Sprint some money, somehow).
Google has to sell Pixel phones in Verizon stores to get any kind of sales traction. Verizon and T-Mobile make it hard for non-branded phones to work well with VoLTE and Wi-Fi calling.
If you could buy the phone from anywhere (and it was the exact same phone), you would buy it off eBay from Chinese dealers. But carriers want their cut. So, they make it difficult. And they want their bloatware put on.
Sent from my official carrier unlocked LG V30+ US998

That's not how it works up here with the 933. Non of the phones are branded. And I think at this point any phone from any carrier can be used on any other carrier. What's more is its now not legal to sell sim locked phones here.
Doing the math with the available plans, its basically either a wash or cheaper to get i from the carriers.
We don't get much if anything as far as cheaper plans are concerned if you bring your own phone.
Any of the small amounts of bloatware we get is easily disabled via the system so not a big deal.

chox_g5 said:
Tmobile
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Simplyrobbie112 said:
No idea what update frquency is like for the +. But still being on Oct 1 patch. Did you check with update software on PC?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I got you both beat, I'm on September security patch. Thanks, AT&T!
Sent from my LG-H931 using XDA Labs

Mr CATFISH said:
I got you both beat, I'm on September security patch. Thanks, AT&T!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah... Google spies, but it seems to possibly be almost worth being vanilla on the internet and go with a pixel... LMAO. Just joking and venting...lol

Google Pixel 2 XL DVT Models

Hey, So I got my hands on some Google Pixel 2 XL devices (actually 8) which were shipped here on 29th of August 2017 (Pixel 2 XL released on first week of Oct 2017)These devices are up for auctions by the Customs department here and I'am thinking to buy them however I have some doubts regarding the DVT sticker and "Not for Sale" marking on back-panel. I have some pics from inspection. It would be really great if you could help me out in buying decision.
My main doubts are:
1. Can build no. be changed after a normal update ? (i guess yes, but still looking for a sure answer)
2. Will it be a good deal to get them at 40% of the present retail price ? (I mean will people would like to own a Pixel 2 XL @ 40 to 50% discounted rate, 'cause "Not for Sale" is mentioned on back-panel)
Looking forward that community members will help.

The "Not For Sale" item on the back is a red flag. It tells me these are engineering samples. The software in an engineering sample is rarely finished and of beta quality. Worse, the bootloader may be locked, something Verizon owners are all too familiar with. The engineering sample bootloader however isn't a Verizon device and ignores any and all attempts to unlock it.
Google may have changed its development practices and these could be something else, but I would be wary regardless.

Strephon Alkhalikoi said:
The "Not For Sale" item on the back is a red flag. It tells me these are engineering samples. The software in an engineering sample is rarely finished and of beta quality. Worse, the bootloader may be locked, something Verizon owners are all too familiar with. The engineering sample bootloader however isn't a Verizon device and ignores any and all attempts to unlock it.
Google may have changed its development practices and these could be something else, but I would be wary regardless.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for your reply . Initially I too had same doubts and after checking about word "DVT" I found it stands for "Design Validation Testing" and it's one step before Mass Production for consumers. And also noticing the date of shipment which is 29th Aug 2017 (almost 35 days before official launch) I don't think there would be any hardware differences.
however one thing I would really like to know is Build No. I mean can we change that through a normal update ?
Here are the links/images of back-panel
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and About me section in settings

Your image links are screwed up. Let's try that again.
Back Panel
About Me - Settings
Now, in answer to your question, probably not. The software here is a pre-release version of Android 8.0, as noted by the build number. From past experience with people who have come across these devices thinking they got a good deal, what usually happens is they attempt to update the device and it fails. Where these devices are intended for testing the software, Google locks down the device so that only testing images can be loaded. Unlocking the bootloader will not be possible, and Verizon owners know all about that, but this will be worse. The option to allow OEM Unlocking will most likely be grayed out.
Unless you don't care about unlocking the device and never seeing an update of any kind, this is not a good deal. Not when you can go to Swappa and purchase a production model that has potentially been used even less than these units.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1G6G_YgwFOL0ktOSEw3G-wv33b5c6w7oZ/view?usp=drivesdk
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1h2ZdbqIyqtTpqFinYzRP1Lx29CYVK0cD/view?usp=drivesdkSo here are updated image links.
Build No. is taimen-userdebug 8.0.0 OPD1.170816.007

rasi_rana said:
Thanks for your reply . Initially I too had same doubts and after checking about word "DVT" I found it stands for "Design Validation Testing" and it's one step before Mass Production for consumers. And also noticing the date of shipment which is 29th Aug 2017 (almost 35 days before official launch) I don't think there would be any hardware differences.
however one thing I would really like to know is Build No. I mean can we change that through a normal update ?
Here are the links/images of back-panel
and About me section in settings
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I do something similar for the Dept of Defense as far as testing weapons systems, software, etc. and if these units are indeed test validation units, they have been stressed in super heated, super cold, harsh environmental conditions, attempts to overcharge the battery, leave it plugged in during heavy use, overheating the CPUs, and a ton of other tests that validate it's consumer usability.
Basically, these units, if test validation pieces, have been abused both physically and software to represent the worst use the average consumer would put them through.
With some of our software testing, earlier versions are unable to be overwritten, or updated via conventional methods because it is still under testing. IF these units are similar, they might be stuck on whatever OS is currently on them.
If they are being sold AS IS, or you can verify they are actually TEST units, I'd put my money somewhere else.
Just my .02.
Good luck!
If it were me, I wouldn't risk ANY funding I wasn't willing to lose on these. With some

Az Biker said:
With some of our software testing, earlier versions are unable to be overwritten, or updated via conventional methods because it is still under testing. IF these units are similar, they might be stuck on whatever OS is currently on them.
If they are being sold AS IS, or you can verify they are actually TEST units, I'd put my money somewhere else.
Just my .02.
Good luck!
If it were me, I wouldn't risk ANY funding I wasn't willing to lose on these. With some
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thanks for stopping by and putting forward your views.
How about investing 1/4th of the retail price on a single device ? and btw Build No. is "taimen-userdebug 8.0.0 OPD1.170816.007" (in case you could offer some more help)

rasi_rana said:
thanks for stopping by and putting forward your views.
How about investing 1/4th of the retail price on a single device ? and btw Build No. is "taimen-userdebug 8.0.0 OPD1.170816.007" (in case you could offer some more help)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If it were me, I would stop at Verification Test Device.
Only you can determine whether you're willing to risk how ever much 25% would total.
Especially if you don't know that you can sell these as upgradable, unlockable, or if they even have all the final release apps and features installed.
Since you asked, my advice is: walk away save your $ for another venture that has more reliable resale and profit tied to it. Way too many IFs and unknowns with these devices in my opinion.