Develop Bugs

What has Zune got to do with updates?

Microsoft says about updating:
"Before you start
1 Install the Zune software on your PC or Windows Phone 7 Connector on your Mac. You'll need these programs to download the update to your phone."
Why on earth do you need to install software on your PC to update your phone? The update goes from Microsoft and has to reach the phone; why are they using the PC as an intermediary?
What does the phone need a PC at all? It's its own operating system, has its own data and applications.
Is this something that is going to be fixed when WP7/8 is business-ready? Businesses are hardly going to roll out Zune software across corporate PCs.
I have a suspicion this is connected to the failure. Windows has countless updates and close to none of them are failures. WP7 has had one minor update and it was a failure. They are introducing extra complexity, incorrectness, and unreliability into the system with Zune.

mcfly ? hellllo mcfly ?
I wonder if microsoft is paying attention ?

CSMR said:
Microsoft says about updating:
"Before you start
1 Install the Zune software on your PC or Windows Phone 7 Connector on your Mac. You'll need these programs to download the update to your phone."
Why on earth do you need to install software on your PC to update your phone? The update goes from Microsoft and has to reach the phone; why are they using the PC as an intermediary?
What does the phone need a PC at all? It's its own operating system, has its own data and applications.
Is this something that is going to be fixed when WP7/8 is business-ready? Businesses are hardly going to roll out Zune software across corporate PCs.
I have a suspicion this is connected to the failure. Windows has countless updates and close to none of them are failures. WP7 has had one minor update and it was a failure. They are introducing extra complexity, incorrectness, and unreliability into the system with Zune.
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I've used SE phones for years and in order to update firmware you always had to connect to PC and use OEM software to update the device. It isn't extraordinary.

ohgood said:
I wonder if microsoft is paying attention ?
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Click to collapse
Do you even own a wp7?

Well, let's just say if you were to extract the update on the phone, then there would probably not be enough space for it. Also, the connection with Zune allows a backup of the phone to be taken, so if your update fails, or you want to restore to a previous backup, you are able to do so. Stop complaining.

sure haven't said:
Do you even own a wp7?
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Click to collapse
no. I don't own an iPhone, symbian, landline phone, xbox, or windows pc, boat, pig, or elephant either. the short time I've spent with demo (I have friends that sell) units proved I can't use wp7 on a daily basis for simple tasks -yet-.

if the update is less than 20mb it will be OTA, but if it's bigger and requires changing the lower layers of the OS, then you are required to connect it to your PC.
connecting it to your PC and using Zune software also provides the ability for a backup/restore capability. though as we have seen, it's still being ironed out...

Look, I am so incredibly happy that Zune was required for this phone, as I had no idea of how awesome it was, honestly. I always pushed it to the side for WMP and now I regret it, as the Zune Pass is the greatest thing I've ever spent money on. Dealing with the update, it allows for stability. I, personally, would never want my phone updating over the air when it comes to an entire OS update. Too many factors, too many things can go wrong, I prefer to let my PC handle the process. It's worked for Apple, while it's gone wrong for Google not to use software...

ohgood said:
no. I don't own an iPhone, symbian, landline phone, xbox, or windows pc, boat, pig, or elephant either. the short time I've spent with demo (I have friends that sell) units proved I can't use wp7 on a daily basis for simple tasks -yet-.
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This seems rather strange - I swapped from an HD2 to the amazing HD7 and apart from missing a few games and apps I CAN use it for everyday tasks with no problems at all. It syncs with my work Exchange server faultlessly, and allows me to view office files without the need for extras. Indeed my IT manager has been so impressed with its smooth integration into our mainly 'Blackberry & iPhone' infrastructure that he has got himself a WP7 device as well now!
Yes there are a few bits missing but I can hardly believe it is unusable in your environment. Most descent coming to the WP7 forums comes from people who either do not even have a device or from those who listen to wining from users who expected far too much from a new OS. All this complaining about updates is laughable as iOS took ages to get an update and so did Android.. yet MS takes less than 6 months to be ready with an update and people moan! LOL.

I thought the PC/Zune requirement was already explained somewhere...
-Zune is used to both download and apply the update to your phone. This eliminates the need to download large (or small) updates through your device's data plan and therefore removes that obstacle in the case of limited data plans.
-Zune also takes care of the backing up (and restoring) of the phone in case of issues.
I'm not too sure what's so complicated about plugging your phone into a computer that should already have the Zune software installed (since it is your only method of syncing content to your phone). If anything, the fact that Zune creates backups makes its a far more reliable method then crossing your fingers and hoping your phone can do it all for you. Imagine if all the phones that failed to update were not initially backed up or didn't have Zune to restore the phone? There would be a great deal more angry consumers. Not to mention, you'd have to download something extra anyway that would do the backing up/restoring for you.
Yes, it is a couple extra steps initially, but it seems like a small price to pay when you think about how you would have to solve your own issues if Zune and backups did not exist.
The Gate Keeper said:
if the update is less than 20mb it will be OTA, but if it's bigger and requires changing the lower layers of the OS, then you are required to connect it to your PC.
connecting it to your PC and using Zune software also provides the ability for a backup/restore capability. though as we have seen, it's still being ironed out...
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Click to collapse
Sorry, but any phone updates must be done through the PC because the phone needs to be backed up before the update can take place. The size doesn't matter. The 20 MB rule ONLY applies to games/apps on the Marketplace.

prjkthack said:
I thought the PC/Zune requirement was already explained somewhere...
-Zune is used to both download and apply the update to your phone. This eliminates the need to download large (or small) updates through your device's data plan and therefore removes that obstacle in the case of limited data plans.
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Click to collapse
There is no such need since the phone should be able to access internet via wifi or via a usb connection to the PC. If there is no such connection you can't use Zune, so Zune is a strict disadvantage here, not an advantage.
-Zune also takes care of the backing up (and restoring) of the phone in case of issues.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Then this can be an option. Backup is separate to restore as processes, even if they are run at the same time.
I'm not too sure what's so complicated about plugging your phone into a computer that should already have the Zune software installed (since it is your only method of syncing content to your phone)
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Click to collapse
This is a terrible aspect of WP7. The question is, when Microsoft adds some of the basic missing features, will updates come over the air and Zune be just an option for consumers.
If anything, the fact that Zune creates backups makes its a far more reliable method then crossing your fingers and hoping your phone can do it all for you.
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Click to collapse
Backup software is fine. I have no objection to making backups. There are multiple ways to backup. Backup is not as important with phones as other devices though as it is not a primary location for data storage, or shouldn't be. However yes, you want your particular choice of content for your phone to be backed up, reselecting it from some other source may be inconvenient.

I'm not going to buy a WP7 phone because I'll have to install the Zune software to install OS updates.

ohgood said:
no. I don't own an iPhone, symbian, landline phone, xbox, or windows pc, boat, pig, or elephant either. the short time I've spent with demo (I have friends that sell) units proved I can't use wp7 on a daily basis for simple tasks -yet-.
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Click to collapse
good for you, but no one asked u for your opinion on this thread.... so stick to your own OS threads...

CSMR said:
There is no such need since the phone should be able to access internet via wifi or via a usb connection to the PC. If there is no such connection you can't use Zune, so Zune is a strict disadvantage here, not an advantage.
Then this can be an option. Backup is separate to restore as processes, even if they are run at the same time.
This is a terrible aspect of WP7. The question is, when Microsoft adds some of the basic missing features, will updates come over the air and Zune be just an option for consumers.
Backup software is fine. I have no objection to making backups. There are multiple ways to backup. Backup is not as important with phones as other devices though as it is not a primary location for data storage, or shouldn't be. However yes, you want your particular choice of content for your phone to be backed up, reselecting it from some other source may be inconvenient.
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if u dont like it dont buy it what is the point *****ing???

CSMR said:
There is no such need since the phone should be able to access internet via wifi or via a usb connection to the PC. If there is no such connection you can't use Zune, so Zune is a strict disadvantage here, not an advantage.
Then this can be an option. Backup is separate to restore as processes, even if they are run at the same time.
This is a terrible aspect of WP7. The question is, when Microsoft adds some of the basic missing features, will updates come over the air and Zune be just an option for consumers.
Backup software is fine. I have no objection to making backups. There are multiple ways to backup. Backup is not as important with phones as other devices though as it is not a primary location for data storage, or shouldn't be. However yes, you want your particular choice of content for your phone to be backed up, reselecting it from some other source may be inconvenient.
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if you ever listen to the wp7 radio podcasts, they just talked about the update last week and decided they would force a backup just to be sure that people didn't screw it up.
It's really not that complicated. If you want OTA updates, get a damn android phone and move on.
mdotgarcia said:
I'm not going to buy a WP7 phone because I'll have to install the Zune software to install OS updates.
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Click to collapse
Then why are you here??? Not to mention zune software has been the most pleasant suprise of my buying the hd7.

CSMR said:
There is no such need since the phone should be able to access internet via wifi or via a usb connection to the PC. If there is no such connection you can't use Zune, so Zune is a strict disadvantage here, not an advantage.
Then this can be an option. Backup is separate to restore as processes, even if they are run at the same time.
This is a terrible aspect of WP7. The question is, when Microsoft adds some of the basic missing features, will updates come over the air and Zune be just an option for consumers.
Backup software is fine. I have no objection to making backups. There are multiple ways to backup. Backup is not as important with phones as other devices though as it is not a primary location for data storage, or shouldn't be. However yes, you want your particular choice of content for your phone to be backed up, reselecting it from some other source may be inconvenient.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
At the end of the day, Zune is here to say, at least for the foreseeable future, so there isn't much point in arguing its existence (or necessity). For most, it brings many conveniences. Its not perfect, and it doesn't work for everyone, but if you decide to buy into this platform and its many advantages, you've gotta roll with the punches.
Another important thing to remember is that no matter how much Microsoft may want this phone to be a viable business option, it isn't (at least in its current form). This platform was designed for the general consumer. Sad to say, but your general consumer isn't too bright. So I understand why backing up during every update is a necessity. I understand why Zune and a PC is required to sync media. I understand why they don't do OTA updating and limit OTA app downloads to under 20 MB.
Some of these things may be slight inconveniences to others, but I appreciate the fact that my phone always has a backup in case something goes wrong, and that I don't have to fumble between 5 different .EXE's or pages of directions to do what I need to do. I just fire up Zune, and it does my syncing, my backups, my restore, the marketplace, podcasts, etc. I mean my goodness, how many different applications did Windows Mobile have to accomplish all this. It was crazy. Windows Phone 7 has nowhere near the amount of issues that Windows Mobile had/has and I love it.
Look at it from a business standpoint too, and it further makes sense. Plug it into your Windows PC and hey that sells software. Require Zune and hey that sells movies, music, games, apps, and Zune Pass subscriptions. It advertises products not only from Microsoft, but using the Zune software is another way for Microsoft to provide access to and advertise the Marketplace to generate more sales and exposure for its developers.
In the grand scheme of things, plugging in your phone to your computer every once in a while is a rather trivial thing to complain about to most people.

prjkthack said:
At the end of the day, Zune is here to say, at least for the foreseeable future, so there isn't much point in arguing its existence (or necessity). For most, it brings many conveniences. Its not perfect, and it doesn't work for everyone, but if you decide to buy into this platform and its many advantages, you've gotta roll with the punches.
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Right. It should be there. There should also be alternatives for businesses or anyone who is not the mass consumer.
Another important thing to remember is that no matter how much Microsoft may want this phone to be a viable business option, it isn't (at least in its current form). This platform was designed for the general consumer. Sad to say, but your general consumer isn't too bright. So I understand why backing up during every update is a necessity. I understand why Zune and a PC is required to sync media. I understand why they don't do OTA updating and limit OTA app downloads to under 20 MB.
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This is a good point, but Microsoft would be crazy to abandon business. They called it WP7, not Kin 2, and they know they need to cater to business at some point.
Some of these things may be slight inconveniences to others, but I appreciate the fact that my phone always has a backup in case something goes wrong, and that I don't have to fumble between 5 different .EXE's or pages of directions to do what I need to do. I just fire up Zune, and it does my syncing, my backups, my restore, the marketplace, podcasts, etc. I mean my goodness, how many different applications did Windows Mobile have to accomplish all this. It was crazy. Windows Phone 7 has nowhere near the amount of issues that Windows Mobile had/has and I love it.
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I see that. It's a minimal system that is easy. The problem with Zune is if it is so integrated that there is no alternative. Then it's a phone that is targeted towards entertainment but cannot be a business phone. Instead, the convenience features should be an added, optional layer on top of the OS, not integrated into the OS.
In the grand scheme of things, plugging in your phone to your computer every once in a while is a rather trivial thing to complain about to most people.
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That's fair. It's more of an architecturaral issue, that integration may be tying down the platform to specific uses and types of customer.

I don't understand the problem. iPhones require a connection to iTunes to update from what I recall, and those have been integrated into a business environment. I don't see how this is any different.

FiyaFleye said:
Look, I am so incredibly happy that Zune was required for this phone, as I had no idea of how awesome it was, honestly. I always pushed it to the side for WMP and now I regret it, as the Zune Pass is the greatest thing I've ever spent money on...
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+1 exactly!

and now what..
w/ windows mobile device center and active zinc ""?

The marketplace and Apps

You know I know MS has done some DUMB things over the years but I think this has got to be the dumbest!
I don't put my credit card onlline esp for games and other trivalties. What I do is buy points I did it for my PS3, and I decided to do it for the MS store. Well low and behold the games can be bought, the music/video can be bought with points but NOT the apps!!
This is the dumbest thing. I don't want games on my phone, or music and videos with DRM lock on them. What I wasnt is a sirius Satalie radio app that apperently I can't buy without putting my credit card into the system.
So now because of MS's reasoning people who go to all that effort of building these apps and deserve to be paid for them can't be, and because I like so many others refuse to use our credit cards on the net and for a 1 dollar item the developers loose out. And not that i care i'm out 40 bucks (2800 points) I care that thats money MS gets and I will never spend, so they win!

Or you could do as I do, and when you want to buy an app, you complete the transaction on your phone, and have it charged to your phone bill. No hassle, no fuss, no credit card involved.

Unfortunately i doubt my system works that way, though it would be nice.

yea mine doesnt work either

RoboDad said:
Or you could do as I do, and when you want to buy an app, you complete the transaction on your phone, and have it charged to your phone bill. No hassle, no fuss, no credit card involved.
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are the price in USD or local currency(own country currency)

I am in the US, and all of the purchases I have made have been in USD. I don't know how it might work (or not work, as it seems) in other countries.

When I buy from MP I just pay using my Credit Card detail I have it stored with Live ID.. when I dont want them to charge my card I just buy it from my phone instead and my Atnt Bill gets credited at the end of the month for all purchases from my phone together...
I like phone billing better because its all together at month end.. I get time.. where as from card I keep seeing every 8-9 USD two three times.. so sometimes I could run into risk of overdrawing and stuff..
But than if I buy from phone.. I would have to re-install it again in case if I ever have hard reset my phone, (I have never done hard reset on my phone yet!! )... so I use MP to buy and install and dont have any problems..

Purple11 said:
But than if I buy from phone.. I would have to re-install it again in case if I ever have hard reset my phone, (I have never done hard reset on my phone yet!! )... so I use MP to buy and install and dont have any problems..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Actually, even if you buy an app through Zune, you may still have to reinstall it from your phone after a hard reset (or replacement).
I recently added more memory to my Focus, which required a hard reset. After completing the reset, I connected to my PC so Zune could reinstall all of my apps, but only about a third of them auto-reinstalled. I don't know if the limit is time-based or number-based, but from what I could see, only the apps that I had purchased/installed within the last 6 weeks were present. The rest all had to be manually reinstalled, which was not fun at all.
This for me is probably the most frustrating part of the WP7 marketplace. We have no tool, either in Zune OR on the phone (it should be on BOTH) to allow use to see a complete history of what we have downloaded/purchased, with options to permanently remove things from the list that we downloaded to check out, but found to be worthless, and another option, for times such as following a hard reset, to select multiple apps to reinstall (or optionally "all"). Instead, I have to keep it all in a spreadsheet on my PC and manually install almost every single app. Lame.

RoboDad said:
Actually, even if you buy an app through Zune, you may still have to reinstall it from your phone after a hard reset (or replacement).
I recently added more memory to my Focus, which required a hard reset. After completing the reset, I connected to my PC so Zune could reinstall all of my apps, but only about a third of them auto-reinstalled. I don't know if the limit is time-based or number-based, but from what I could see, only the apps that I had purchased/installed within the last 6 weeks were present. The rest all had to be manually reinstalled, which was not fun at all.
This for me is probably the most frustrating part of the WP7 marketplace. We have no tool, either in Zune OR on the phone (it should be on BOTH) to allow use to see a complete history of what we have downloaded/purchased, with options to permanently remove things from the list that we downloaded to check out, but found to be worthless, and another option, for times such as following a hard reset, to select multiple apps to reinstall (or optionally "all"). Instead, I have to keep it all in a spreadsheet on my PC and manually install almost every single app. Lame.
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Click to collapse
I just save my ATnT bill which lists all my purchase for that month and I also get regular Emails in my LiveID for all the purchases I make at MarketPlace using my Card, so I dont have to maintain a spreadsheet right now..

RoboDad said:
We have no tool, either in Zune OR on the phone (it should be on BOTH) to allow use to see a complete history of what we have downloaded/purchased,
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Click to collapse
Do through your zune settings on your computer, there is a spot to show you what you bought. thought not sure about that if you buy it on your phone.

slight22 said:
Do through your zune settings on your computer, there is a spot to show you what you bought. thought not sure about that if you buy it on your phone.
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I'm not sure if that even shows a complete history of Zune-purchased apps. And, even for the apps it does list, it doesn't provide any tools to reinstall. In fact, Zune doesn't allow any manual reinstall, period. It HAS TO be done on the phone.
[Edit]
I hadn't tried to use that tool in a while, because the last time I did use it, it didn't list everything. It looks like it does now list everything (even apps purchased on the phone), but still lacks the ability to reinstall apps from there. And there is still the glaring lack of a similar tool on the phone itself.

Actually it's weird but believe me apps keep reinstalling for a few days on Zune after a hard reset. It doesn't make any sense but I experienced it with my phone.
That said, a way to backup would be ideal, specially when it comes to game saves.
RoboDad said:
Actually, even if you buy an app through Zune, you may still have to reinstall it from your phone after a hard reset (or replacement).
I recently added more memory to my Focus, which required a hard reset. After completing the reset, I connected to my PC so Zune could reinstall all of my apps, but only about a third of them auto-reinstalled. I don't know if the limit is time-based or number-based, but from what I could see, only the apps that I had purchased/installed within the last 6 weeks were present. The rest all had to be manually reinstalled, which was not fun at all.
This for me is probably the most frustrating part of the WP7 marketplace. We have no tool, either in Zune OR on the phone (it should be on BOTH) to allow use to see a complete history of what we have downloaded/purchased, with options to permanently remove things from the list that we downloaded to check out, but found to be worthless, and another option, for times such as following a hard reset, to select multiple apps to reinstall (or optionally "all"). Instead, I have to keep it all in a spreadsheet on my PC and manually install almost every single app. Lame.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sent from my Omnia 7 using XDA Windows Phone 7 App

also its cheaper to just buy it via ATT, saves me a few cents of sales tax.

Just setup a credit card specifically for online purchases. You are protected. Just make sure you check your statement each month to make sure there were no fraudulent charges.

cbebop7 said:
also its cheaper to just buy it via ATT, saves me a few cents of sales tax.
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Click to collapse
Is it?? I didnt knew that..
I dont know why people have to maintain a list when they get all the info in their billing.. users can just save their emails/atnt bills..

Peew971 said:
Actually it's weird but believe me apps keep reinstalling for a few days on Zune after a hard reset. It doesn't make any sense but I experienced it with my phone.
That said, a way to backup would be ideal, specially when it comes to game saves.
Sent from my Omnia 7 using XDA Windows Phone 7 App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
the Zune created backups save apps and game saves. The backup is surprisingly thorough. There is a program on XDA here now that will trick Zune into creating a backup at any time.
Sent from my SGH-i917 using XDA Windows Phone 7 App

That's true, but there is no selective restore feature. It's either all or nothing. Plus, if you have a Focus, and add more memory, the backup will not be recognized as valid for your phone any more.

munkeyphyst said:
the Zune created backups save apps and game saves. The backup is surprisingly thorough. There is a program on XDA here now that will trick Zune into creating a backup at any time.
Sent from my SGH-i917 using XDA Windows Phone 7 App
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Click to collapse
Really? Are you saying I can restore my game saves? How do I do that?

Peew971 said:
Really? Are you saying I can restore my game saves? How do I do that?
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Click to collapse
You can't backup specific data with that tool. What it does - basically spoken - is force Zune into the update mode, so it runs a backup of your device. After the backup is finished, the update process is aborted. When you now want to restore the backup, you just do a simple rollback from within Zune.

I need to try this, cheers. Xbox Live is getting cloud saving, would be great if WP7 games were included in that.
Sent from my Omnia 7 using XDA Windows Phone 7 App

Cloud Computing is not optional

Back in 2003, I came across a feature quietly tucked away in a service pack update I got for Win XP. They called it Microsoft Groove. It was a means of storing info online in case it was too big to send,you could upload pretty much anything(contacts,folders,etc.) and access the info remotely from any internet enabled computer in the world. Thanks but no thanks, I thought. My info, and that of others, is my responsibility to administrate.
Cut to 2012, now the contacts I had synchronised with Outlook back then,were associated with my Windows live account, which saved them online "as a backup". I cant sync contacts directly with my PC, now the info goes straight to the cloud platform. The cloud storage is the common meeting point for my devices, for years you could not take files directly from your 'high-tech' WP7 device and put them in your PC, you were ushered into the cloud computing framework and convinced that the whole thing was your idea all along. Real control over personal information is synonimous with older devices, the more advanced and current your device is,the less control you get over info. Sounds like a lame trade-off to me.

Vukile said:
Back in 2003, I came across a feature quietly tucked away in a service pack update I got for Win XP. They called it Microsoft Groove. It was a means of storing info online in case it was too big to send,you could upload pretty much anything(contacts,folders,etc.) and access the info remotely from any internet enabled computer in the world. Thanks but no thanks, I thought. My info, and that of others, is my responsibility to administrate.
Cut to 2012, now the contacts I had synchronised with Outlook back then,were associated with my Windows live account, which saved them online "as a backup". I cant sync contacts directly with my PC, now the info goes straight to the cloud platform. The cloud storage is the common meeting point for my devices, for years you could not take files directly from your 'high-tech' WP7 device and put them in your PC, you were ushered into the cloud computing framework and convinced that the whole thing was your idea all along. Real control over personal information is synonimous with older devices, the more advanced and current your device is,the less control you get over info. Sounds like a lame trade-off to me.
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Click to collapse
Many years ago I came across a little used feature called email, all sounded a bit "fantastical" to me at the time, I mean, we had pens, we had paper, letter boxes in every home, if we all sat around typing on monochrome screens our eyes would bleed, we'd get radiation burns and we'd all forget how to write and besides, it hadn't been THAT long since telegrams were sent on mass, and interestingly they would still have been a bigger user base for that too compared to "email"
needless to say we didn't all go blind or forget how to write (although that at least is partially debatable!) and now we send these fandangled electronic letters everywhere instead, so much so in fact, our postal service is just about broke.
I do hear what you are saying, but this IS the world we live in, we need to move with it an to be perfectly honest, the cloud has saved my bacon more than once, in situations that a direct sync with a computer would have been as useful as a chocolate teapot.
im curious
what is it that you don't like about cloud? is there any actual reason other than the "idea" of dumping your stuff on a third party service that can arguably can look after your data in a much more secure location than a home computer

I happen to like having full control of what goes in and out of my device. I dont live too far from the beach,but I rarely go. The idea of not having that option anymore would drive me over the edge, its as logical as having a pool at your house. My rant was spurred on by an article that suggested that our devices would merely be shells. Remember when gmail crashed a while back, or RIM, Facebook,Twitter,etc.? Bothered the hell out of me. If Im likely to fall prey to that again,I should at least be able to keep operating independently of those vices, otherwise my phone will turn into an overpriced flashlight.

Vukile said:
I happen to like having full control of what goes in and out of my device. I dont live too far from the beach,but I rarely go. The idea of not having that option anymore would drive me over the edge, its as logical as having a pool at your house. My rant was spurred on by an article that suggested that our devices would merely be shells. Remember when gmail crashed a while back, or RIM, Facebook,Twitter,etc.? Bothered the hell out of me. If Im likely to fall prey to that again,I should at least be able to keep operating independently of those vices, otherwise my phone will turn into an overpriced flashlight.
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and yet, the flip side to that coin is that, yes you could sync directly to your computer to stay in "control" but should the server go down you still wont get your email in either case. If my server goes down my device keeps the contacts on it, it keeps the emails going back as far as I tell it too, I do not need to have the a connection to the server other than to get new data, which would screw both methods if that were to happen.
The other thing is that whilst direct syncing has benefits to some degree although personally I don't notice the difference any more as I cant even remember the last time I fired up outlook... anyhow, yes you can sync, but lets say you were on the beach and your phone goes tits up, I bet I can reset and be synced before you got off the beach unless the server is down in which case yes you could sync all your old data but your just as stuck for anything new as I would be, of course my other email account would be able to sync its contacts, so that would have to go down too, or perhaps the whole network stops...and wifi,,,
I do see what your saying, I used to think the same until I actually stood back and looked at it objectively, I asked myself some honest questions and added a second layer of redundancy by having my live and gmail accounts sync contacts and calendar info periodically. There really is only so much you can do and the benefits of cloud storage for me far out weigh the downsides.
Sorry my friend, but one way or another, direct syncing like the good old days is a relic of a time that's soon to be forgotten

I get you,dazza,really. My point is, though, that if theres a loss or unavailability of data, I want to be 100% responsible. I dread the day when I have to periodically look at a notification that says "Our technicians are working on it". This crap has gone down with every major cloud computing service or derivative since the innovation was thrust upon the masses. I just want my phone back,man. Screw the innovations, let me take my under-utilised hardware and be on my way.

Vukile said:
I get you,dazza,really. My point is, though, that if theres a loss or unavailability of data, I want to be 100% responsible. I dread the day when I have to periodically look at a notification that says "Our technicians are working on it". This crap has gone down with every major cloud computing service or derivative since the innovation was thrust upon the masses. I just want my phone back,man. Screw the innovations, let me take my under-utilised hardware and be on my way.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
rip pimp c

I completely understand, but the reality is that is unlikely to come back, although I do see a future where the location of cloud can be changed, think along the lines of corporate domains with AD setup, companies may be ok with you taking work home an accessing via a phone but only on their terms, on their servers, if that were possible I could see a windows server extension to allow that, an thus potentially have it on a home server too... Maybe
Sent from my Samsung Focus S using XDA Windows Phone 7 App

Vukile said:
I get you,dazza,really. My point is, though, that if theres a loss or unavailability of data, I want to be 100% responsible. I dread the day when I have to periodically look at a notification that says "Our technicians are working on it". This crap has gone down with every major cloud computing service or derivative since the innovation was thrust upon the masses. I just want my phone back,man. Screw the innovations, let me take my under-utilised hardware and be on my way.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I used to feel the same way about print and electronic media. Think about it.

What I don't like is everything being dumbed down and the options being removed (Or made astronomically expensive) that used to exist before.
Microsoft has the technology (And the phone even supports it for corporates).
The fact is in terms of real usefulness palm os offline had far more innovative applications. (And didn't try to make everything moron proof).
---------- Post added at 02:59 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:56 AM ----------
gentry33 said:
I used to feel the same way about print and electronic media. Think about it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Realistically the consumer should get outlook connectivity / lync / sharepoint / office 365 in a hosted manner not the dumbed down experience that we do get.
(Even the old activesync system was preferable in a lot of ways).

And yet dumbed down is exactly what people want, you are not not the target user
Sent from my Samsung Focus S using XDA Windows Phone 7 App

dazza9075 said:
And yet dumbed down is exactly what people want, you are not not the target user
Sent from my Samsung Focus S using XDA Windows Phone 7 App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Schaps had the gameplan years ago, but we were too busy sleeping. Imma donate the hell out of itParticipate.
I fell for this this "We're not updating xxxxxxx device" crap afew times. I had an iMate Jam (largest selling PDA of its time) and I let it go because it was never gonna get a WM5 update. Nowadays, I see cats doing backflips and handstands with their WM6.5 iMate Jams like its the most natural thing in the world. When it comes to devices, N.E.R.D

You can still have a modern "PDA" and live completely off the "cloud", your data haphazardly fragmented across devices, if you really feel the need to live in the past. Ironically though, Microsoft is no longer the company that will provide you the platform with which to do so.

I wonder how many former HTC Leo owners wish they never listened to that. Btw, since starting this thread, I managed to achieve my goal. A little Chinese ingenuity here,a little Vietnamese there, a dollop of Russian app and add some Italian and Egyptian flair.... Tasty.

history is cyclical, that's how humanity progresses, we do learn mistakes from the past, but will find news ways to make it again. In XX years time, we might end up going back to individual storage again.

Did they downgrade multi-window in kitkat?

It says they only let 2 multi-windows now.... DIdn't before you could do 3 or 4?
Before that I could do as much multi-windows as I wanted? Why did they make this change? Is this a downgrade?
Or am I just imaging things? Was it always 2.
Also, Polaris Office 5 sucks it has so many glitches (document not supported, but it opens manually, doesn't free draw save for ppt, etc.) . I want the polaris office that was included in the original note 10.1.
Also, wtf google Why did you take the external SD card away...
There was a reason why I bought the 16 gb ones.

It was always 2 from the factory. You can root and enable 4 though.

Hahahalalala said:
Also, wtf google Why did you take the external SD card away...
There was a reason why I bought the 16 gb ones.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So you use the cloud... Google wants to own your info, not just allow you access to it....
The bullsh!t line about security is ridiculous...

The cloud is not the answer. Download and upload speeds, data charges, file sizes and security issues. Just a few concerns. I use cloud storage and am in the process of reducing it. Trust Google? Hell, that is akin to demanding you trust the government. You cannot.
Via my Note 3

BclingergFJ said:
The cloud is not the answer. Download and upload speeds, data charges, file sizes and security issues. Just a few concerns. I use cloud storage and am in the process of reducing it. Trust Google? Hell, that is akin to demanding you trust the government. You cannot.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree about the cloud not being the answer. I also agree that taking away a feature people relied on, even made purchasing decisions based on (16GB vs.32GB), for no truthfully explainable reason, is pretty crappy. But it's time to move on. The hobbling of external storage first came to light last December when the SGS4 GPe received 4.4.2. That's six months ago. Since then, nothing's changed. People's choices are:
Leave Android for another OS out of contempt for Google
Stay on 4.3 forever
Root and install a fix
Adjust the way you use the external SD card and come up with new ways to do things
Trade your 16GB devices for one with more storage
***** endlessly to strangers on discussion forums about how crappy Google's decision was and how your life has been ruined
Even with six months having passed, every day, on every forum I view, there's another new thread started about "why can't I save to external SD?" It's getting kind of old. So people need to pick one of the above and move on. And those choosing option 6, no one here can help you and answers to any and all questions you might ask have been posted dozens of times. F'd up external storage is Google's "new normal" and they aren't going to back down.
P.S. - I chose option 4

we can stop 16g android device and finally we have 32g or more.
Sent from my SM-G900S using XDA Free mobile app

hochui said:
we can stop 16g android device and finally we have 32g or more.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Someone should tell Samsung.
This really isn't the catastrophe it's being made out to be. Video, games, and pics take up the most storage space. They can be stored and played off the external SD card. Most large apps allow you to move them to external SD too. All Samsung's apps (Video, Music, Gallery, My Files, Samsung Link) have universal access to external storage and can be used to manipulate files saved there. Any app can create its own sandbox on external SD and save/edit/delete files there. What's been lost is every app having access to everything on external storage. It's a pain in the a_s but there are work-arounds that aren't that onerous and most people, especially consumption users, will be fine.

4. root and SDfix
The only acceptable solution is to root and run SDfix from playstore.
I was forced to do that after kitkat OTA upgrade on my Note3 and external SD write was crippled overnight.
My Note10 is still on 4.3 rooted, but when I go 4.4, root+SDfix will be first on the list right after the upgrade.

BarryH_GEG said:
I agree about the cloud not being the answer. I also agree that taking away a feature people relied on, even made purchasing decisions based on (16GB vs.32GB), for no truthfully explainable reason, is pretty crappy. But it's time to move on. The hobbling of external storage first came to light last December when the SGS4 GPe received 4.4.2. That's six months ago. Since then, nothing's changed. People's choices are:
Leave Android for another OS out of contempt for Google
Stay on 4.3 forever
Root and install a fix
Adjust the way you use the external SD card and come up with new ways to do things
Trade your 16GB devices for one with more storage
***** endlessly to strangers on discussion forums about how crappy Google's decision was and how your life has been ruined
Even with six months having passed, every day, on every forum I view, there's another new thread started about "why can't I save to external SD?" It's getting kind of old. So people need to pick one of the above and move on. And those choosing option 6, no one here can help you and answers to any and all questions you might ask have been posted dozens of times. F'd up external storage is Google's "new normal" and they aren't going to back down.
P.S. - I chose option 4
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I pick 6... :silly:
Seriously though, the sdfix doesn't fix everything unfortunately but its the best option right now.
And just so we're absolutely clear, GOOGLE SUX!!!!!!

external SD card is useless now with kitkat. Can we have a class action suit?

Can we have a class action suite against Google, the carriers and/or the phone vendors (Samsung in this case) for taking meaningful SD support away
1. sue to get reimbursed for the cost of the SD card which is now nearly useless.
2. sue them due to conflict of interest where the carrier charges for bandwidth-- when we use cloud storage instead of SD storage and where google is effectively forcing us to use the cloud-- which google has a great interest in.
Even a symbolic attempt at a class action suit maybe useful.
Maybe that will force google to pay attention to the user rather than to their big plans which they force on us?

davidshooki said:
Can we have a class action suite against Google, the carriers and/or the phone vendors (Samsung in this case) for taking meaningful SD support away
1. sue to get reimbursed for the cost of the SD card which is now nearly useless.
2. sue them due to conflict of interest where the carrier charges for bandwidth-- when we use cloud storage instead of SD storage and where google is effectively forcing us to use the cloud-- which google has a great interest in.
Even a symbolic attempt at a class action suit maybe useful.
Maybe that will force google to pay attention to the user rather than to their big plans which they force on us?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
1.No.
2.No.
3.They're not forcing you to do anything.
4.Not only would Google laugh, they'd think its an April fools joke.
5. SDcard policy changed in 5.0

Lol .
Pp.

davidshooki said:
Can we have a class action suite against Google, the carriers and/or the phone vendors (Samsung in this case) for taking meaningful SD support away
1. sue to get reimbursed for the cost of the SD card which is now nearly useless.
2. sue them due to conflict of interest where the carrier charges for bandwidth-- when we use cloud storage instead of SD storage and where google is effectively forcing us to use the cloud-- which google has a great interest in.
Even a symbolic attempt at a class action suit maybe useful.
Maybe that will force google to pay attention to the user rather than to their big plans which they force on us?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You do realize you can get the SD card back to the way it was pretty easily?
Google or search this forum for several apps, or for the settings you need to change to get it to work.
There is even a free app on the Play Store.

rlichtefeld said:
You do realize you can get the SD card back to the way it was pretty easily?
Google or search this forum for several apps, or for the settings you need to change to get it to work.
There is even a free app on the Play Store.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Searching is so yesterday! I should be able to come and ask any question that pops into my head regardless of how many times it's been answered; I mean.. this IS a support site, right?
I'm obviously kidding. I just wanted to chime in.. what's so different about KitKat's SD policy and JellyBean? I mean, other than that SDFix app which I haven't had to use since KitKat first came out, I haven't noticed any difference in accessing the extSdCard between 4.2.2 up to 4.4.4. I assume most custom ROMs have the fix built right in? That could be why I haven't noticed it now that I think of it...

I can't find any fix for a un-rooted cell phone, and for the most part I am ok with the stock ROM and don't need to root... except that now my SD card is, for the most part, useless.
I also don't understand the reasoning for this: my apps are free to do what they want on the phone's internal card. They are just blocked from writing to the external card. They can read whatever they want from the external card as well. So they still have some access to my personal and sensitive information. I don't see the point other than trying to slowly phase out external cards and forcing us to use carrier/vendor's services. There are so many better ways to implement this if the goal was really security rather than to limit the use of SD cards.

davidshooki said:
I can't find any fix for a un-rooted cell phone, and for the most part I am ok with the stock ROM and don't need to root... except that now my SD card is, for the most part, useless.
I also don't understand the reasoning for this: my apps are free to do what they want on the phone's internal card. They are just blocked from writing to the external card. They can read whatever they want from the external card as well. So they still have some access to my personal and sensitive information. I don't see the point other than trying to slowly phase out external cards and forcing us to use carrier/vendor's services. There are so many better ways to implement this if the goal was really security rather than to limit the use of SD cards.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, for the first time ever, I am considering apple/iphone since it seems that is where Android is striving to be. At this point I may even consider Windows phone.

davidshooki said:
Well, for the first time ever, I am considering apple/iphone since it seems that is where Android is striving to be. At this point I may even consider Windows phone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Please do, and yes we want to be iPhone

ShinySide said:
Please do, and yes we want to be iPhone
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
lol my sd card doesn't work at the moment but i'm not complaining (im on android 5.0 cm rom).