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Considering a Diamond to replace my Tilt.
Last Friday, PC Magazine reviewed the Diamond, highlighting its pluses and considerable negatives in this article:
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2321616,00.asp
Could any of the ROM developers or others in this thread address what, if any, of the negatives in the article are eliminated or mitigated by ROMs developed here, such as battery life, poor Touch Flo screen response & generally buggy, slow software? (PC Magazine is hoping that US version will be better.)
Regardless of response, thanks to all for really helpful discussions & commitment to bettering stock ROMs.
Hmm... crappy review
I don't think that's a fair review to go by, but then again, i love my Diamond . I think the Diamond addresses a different kind of user then say an iPhone would. I for example don't mind making a backup (which takes about 30 seconds), and then flash new ROMS. as for the downsides:
- Sluggishness: This is, as far as i'm concerned, all fixed in most recent cooked ROM's. I started out with dutch 1.34 firmware (or was it 1.35... i'm not sure... the slow one though), and eventually got kind of ticked off. Flashing New ROM and some minor tweaks fixed this
- Keyboard eating up half your screen: Well, some ROM's include a smaller keyboard, though you definitely need a stylus to work it (i have thin fingers, so i can pretty much operate the full keybord with my fingers).
- Windows Mobile visible in places: For day to day use you barely ever run into Windows Mobile. And for the places you do it's a small effort to put the font-size to a few pixels higher so that everything's readable and clickable with your fingers.
- Opera issues: bull****. Works perfectly. Recent builds even more so then the stock one.
- Speakerphone quality is crap: well... yes it is. but it's a speaker phone, whad'ya expect? 5.1 sound?
- YouTube locking up his handset for 65 seconds: never heard of it happen, have quite a few friends with this phone. Application is quite snappy actually i think, considering the amount of data it has to process.
- Little additional software: How's adobe reader, flash lite, opera 9, google maps, office mobile, standard games + teeter, album viewer, jblend java, htc zip and a youtube player sound as per standard?
All in all i think this is an immensely biased review, from someone who probably hasn't used it for more then 2 days. If you give it a week to get used to it and personalize/tweak it you'll love it (i do, previous phones include Samsung i600 and i320, HTC Touch, Orange SPV M600, Nokia N73, so i'm not exactly new to smartphones).
I've never experienced the bugs in Opera mentioned in the article.
Most of the cooked ROMs on this site are significantly faster than the stock 1.93 ROM. As a reference, I can say that the diamond in the article is said to score:
SPB Benchmark: 378.11
CPU index: 2258.69
File system index: 176.37
Graphics index: 366.36
The presently fastest cooked ROM (Swtos v.095) gives:
SPB Benchmark: 512,41
CPU index: 2290,21
File system index: 214,74
Graphics index: 1688,14
That said, my honest opinion is that the Diamond UI is NOT as responsive as the Iphone. A lot of people here hate the comparison, but as a happy Diamond owner, this is my verdict and everyone who has made a direct comparison will tell you the same thing. There ARE still minor hickups, waiting for apps to start and slight lag in the TouchFLO 3D. I hope these will be eliminated entirely, but we're not there yet.
I'm presently using SwiftBL 6.0 FULL, considered as a fast ROM.
Many of these reviews aren't helpful to be honest, they're just more of the tired old apples versus oranges debates by people who don't much like oranges.
I can sum it up thus:
There is simply no device on the market giving more punch per unit volume... and that is by some margin.
This is why I got one, and it's turned out my decision was inspired.
It does however have it's drawbacks, and this device certainly isn't for every one (at first I had to prime it for my wife when she pinched it to make a call), but love it or hate it, the WM platform is so versatile, and is so ultra configurable, that if you put the effort in you will be handsomely rewarded... I think mine's great!
Being the owner of both diamond and iphone 3g. The best advice i can give you is going for the diamond. Forget all the other crappy phones. well i just use iphone as an ipod + web surfin I knoe i could go for the ipod touch but i like to show off that is why i just bought it. But trust me mate TOUCH DIAMOND WITH A LATEST COOKED ROM KILLS ANYOTHER DEVICE IN THE MARKET.
PS: Oh well if you like keyboard then go for the Touch PRO which is better than diamond. I am just waiting for it to come on vodafone uk so i can upgrade my contract.
Ehm? What? Heh?
This must be the worst and most unbalanced review I have ever read.
His whole critique could have been replaced with "it's not an iPhone". And you know what, that's absolutely true!
I currently have a Raphael, Diamond and Kaiser in operation. My preference is in that order. (I'll take the Kaiser over an iPhone though).
If you're coming from the Kaiser, you will love the Diamond (though really the Raphael is the Kaiser replacement here, not the Diamond).
Chainfire said:
Ehm? What? Heh?
This must be the worst and most unbalanced review I have ever read.
His whole critique could have been replaced with "it's not an iPhone". And you know what, that's absolutely true!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'll have to go ahead and sort of ...disagree with you there!
I believe the review clearly shows why the Diamond isn't for everyone. The reviewer gives a very plausible view of the feature-hungry but regular Joe who just buys a cool phone in a store. This "Joe" did actually take the effort of upgrading the Diamond to latest stock ROM, but the quirks still left him frustrated and wanting.
The Windows Mobile platform and this great forum gives us power-users the means to address these quirks and that is exactly why I choose the Diamond over the Iphone. With the Iphone, you're left at the whim of Apple, who still more than a year later can't even offer something as fundamental as landscape typing, except in Safari.
Still, most users can't be bothered to go about the amount of modding that the Diamond requires to fulfill its potential. I'm a newbie still, yet I've spent countless hours reading these forums. I think we can agree, that kind of effort is not for everyone and that the Diamond without tweaks and with stock ROM, is quite a rough cut.
But, I have to give credit where it's due. When it comes to responsive user interface, the Iphone has raised the bar for ALL touchphones, and by a fair margin too. This is a good thing, comparing is a good thing - because it will make the industry and HTC to strive to adapt to the new standards.
The Diamond is a super device, I love it, and compared to other WinMo-devices it really excells too. But why is comparing it to the Iphone like Apples and Oranges? I think the majority of buyers in the market for a touchphone considers BOTH the Diamond and the Iphone, and probably the Omnia too. And all devices has their advantages and disadvantages, in the end it comes down to personal preference.
But still, wouldn't it be great to get the best features from all of them into one device?
So keep comparing and keep the whip on those developers! =)
losdrivare said:
But why is comparing it to the Iphone like Apples and Oranges? I think the majority of buyers in the market for a touchphone considers BOTH the Diamond and the Iphone, and probably the Omnia too. And all devices has their advantages and disadvantages, in the end it comes down to personal preference.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Point taken that consumers can always use informed opinion to help make their choices...
But still, wouldn't it be great to get the best features from all of them into one device?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
...but until the happy day this mystical beast is born, I think we're still stuck with choosing between apples and oranges.
losdrivare said:
I'll have to go ahead and sort of ...disagree with you there!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well you don't seem to disagree that much, you just use more words
On many points we agree, but that is because of the apples/oranges thing.
As I said, the Diamond is not an iPhone, and if mr average joe considers it to be one, that is their mistake.
The iPhone simply trades features and power for a sleeker UI. And though it is not there yet, WM will get this responsiveness as well. And it will not be HTC driving this, but rather MS themselves (mark my words). The slacking HTC is doing on many of its former devices and which is still partially there on the Diamond and Raphael will not be tolerated any longer. Though of course WM could be further optimized, do not forget that HTC can do all that the chef's can... they just don't
You actually say it yourself, you are left to the whim of Apple on many points, but in return you get a very responsive UI. This is just the other end of the spectrum from WM.
You will see, by the time the iPhone has the power of WM, WM will have the UI of iPhone. The only difference then is will you go with the Apple and still let all the decision be made for you, or will you go with MS and decide yourself what you want your device to be?
Yes, it would be great to have all those things. And we will. Just not yet
Thanks, everyone, for the quick and substantive replies to my question. The multiple perspectives are really great and are one of the valuable aspects of these forums.
Ive had my Diamond for almost 2 weeks now. I must say... after the excitement of taking it out the box, to being bitterly disappointed with the sluggish UI (to the point that I actually took it back to the dealer and asked for another phone), I must say that after discovering this forum, things are looking much rosier.
I'm slowly but surely starting to , as someone previously said, unlock the potential of the diamond and starting to like it again.
If you are expecting an iphone-like device, don't get this phone unless you are willing (and have the time and skill) to customise it. Its going to be a frustrating journey for you if you don't.
If you've already owned a wm device, you will probably love it (after customization)
If this phone gets to the US through att (please!) I'm thinking hard about picking it up. I have a question though for the users that have switched from winmo to android.
I've been a winmo user since the wizard days and here lately I've grown tired of the daily resets (or multiple resets per day) to keep memory down and things running smooth. I love the Sense UI but it's a hog on winmo. I never thought I'd go to another phone that didn't have a slide out keyboard but the desire is something I'm really considering.
I realize this is a modding community and I'm sure I'll mod the device, but whereas the sense ui on winmo is "lipstick on a pig" it seems it's a lot more seamless on android.
Mainly i think i'm just getting burned out on winmo, but i refuse to support the evil empire of apple lol. I just want a phone that i don't have to restart every day, and I'm hoping android can be that.
So uh, does android "just work"?
Depending on how much of a "power user" one is , you could say Android just works.
I mean, Android with Sense + some minor tweaks and i don't have the urge to hack my phone into little pieces. I just use it.
Then again, for "just using" you might aswell get the iPhone.
Yes android does "Just Work"
And Sense UI on WinMo is completely different to the Android version, I couldn't believe they called it the same name =/
brummiesteven said:
Yes android does "Just Work"
And Sense UI on WinMo is completely different to the Android version, I couldn't believe they called it the same name =/
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
what u mean by different? whats so different?
cez10 said:
what u mean by different? whats so different?
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Click to collapse
Some of the design and the widgets of course and the integration. Plus it's slower on winmo than on android...
Almost identical reasons as the OP for me very seriously considering moving to the Desire.
Sense on Android does seem far more customisable than on WinMo devices. I've been using WinMo device since the Imate JAM.
cez10 said:
what u mean by different? whats so different?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sense UI on winmo is basically touchflo
I'm a die hard WinMo fan (I have well over a dozen WinMo phones right now - all HTC except 2). I want the Desire if for no other reason to hack something different while I wait for Windows Mobile 7 (which I may not get). If for no other reason, I ran out of things to hack on Windows Mobile. I need a new challenge. If I end up not liking Android, at least it kept me busy while we wait for Windows Mobile 7 (I refuse to call it anything else).
I picked up an iPhone 3GS just to see what I could do with it. Never even activated it. Not one of my prouder moments...
-Mc
McHale said:
I'm a die hard WinMo fan (I have well over a dozen WinMo phones right now - all HTC except 2). I want the Desire if for no other reason to hack something different while I wait for Windows Mobile 7 (which I may not get). If for no other reason, I ran out of things to hack on Windows Mobile. I need a new challenge. If I end up not liking Android, at least it kept me busy while we wait for Windows Mobile 7 (I refuse to call it anything else).
I picked up an iPhone 3GS just to see what I could do with it. Never even activated it. Not one of my prouder moments...
-Mc
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
same here... i absolutely love WinMo and will never, ever abandon it. i'm waiting for the HD2 to drop on T-Mo so i can test before i buy. if i get the HD2 it will be the Telstra version. i might wait longer for a WinMo 7 device, too.
i took the Android plunge almost 2 months ago with the Nexus One. i have been challenged to no end to learn some of the Android basics, but i'm getting there. once i got the courage to unlock and root, it was friggin on! now i'm running the alpha Desire ROM (yes alpha), a.k.a, Sense UI, which isn't perfect, but from a functionality and performance perspective i couldn't be happier. (well, that's not entirely true, i'm hoping that [email protected] can get bluetooth fixed, it's a little flaky right now). i truly, truly hope that WM Seven is similar in performance and functionality.
using Android hasn't been an easy journey and i was very concerned that i'd change my mind and go back to WinMo, but it hasn't happened. i know i will be a better, more knowledgeable hacker in the future. some of the things i admire with Android/Nexus One:
ability to create backups before testing new ROMs. i mean backups with all my apps installed. a.k.a., Nandroid
the ability to recover from my mistakes via Nandroid backups.
a buttload of themes, customizations galore for the Nexus One
notification panel, where you can slide down for all your notifications
a great browsing experience
absolutely beautiful AMOLED screen
with a 1 ghz processor, this thing is simply fast
gesture search of contacts, music, apps, web, etc. it's like the old graffiti but using the regular alphabet
things that are challenging me big time:
Android command language
ROM/folder structures, basically where stuff get's stored
java, java, java
no native install to microSD card, there's AP2SD, but i'm not ready for that yet
not knowing how Android manages memory, programs, etc.
knowing how to create my own themes; i've had more failures than successes
having to depend more on others for assistance than i'm accustomed to.
i'm glad i made the transition to Android with the right device (for me). i miss WinMo and my all time favorite device Touch HD. i have an Xda Orbit II as a standby that's been good to me for 2 years. i'll be back to WinMo 7, but for now, i'm enjoying my Android experience.
i'm not trying to convince you or anyone else to move to Android; i only want to share my experience as a current/forever, diehard WinMo user. thanks for allowing me to express my thoughts!
p.s. i still have my first WinMo device, it's an MPx 200 running WinMo 6.5. a classic device that i will never give up!
I can not call myself a WinMo veteran, since I have been using the HD2 for only 2,5 months. But the fact that it is already a dead device because of the Developers leaving to 7 Series(Adobe just stopped making flash for it, while they were very close to finishing it) makes me sad. If on 1 April there is still no word on the future of the HD2, I am selling it and getting a Desire.
A few questions to Android users!
How is the Android Market? How many apps? All useable by Desire, or is the divercity of the Android devices making the quality suffer? And only instal to internal memory right?
General Android OS: easy to use? Eye candy? Touch optimized?
Android browser: good or not? Is there Opera browser for Android?
Does HTC Sense work well with Android? Does it become 'one', or stay 2 different things like Sense and WinMo?
What should I know more about Android? What do you Android users think are the bad things about the OS and hope to see changed in the future updates?
I know it is a lot I am asking, but I am making a right decision this time so I need to be informed.
Kind regards
great time to stumble on this thread.... my HD2 is no more and despite only using winmo for 3 months, I'm ready to go to Android too.
I'm no smartphone veteran - but something I enjoyed on the HD2 was the PSX emulator - will we see anything like that on Android?
Does anyone know about the development of medical apps for professionals as well as students?
Much appreciated.So far the Desire is looking like a strong contender but do the wise folks here have any other phone tips?
Hi there.
I am quite a WinMobile user. I already worked with WinCE many many years ago, but couldn't ever think of having a phone with WinCE/WinMobile. Then 2 years ago, I got myself the Tytn II because I wanted to advance in my mobile experience. After using it quite a while, flashing ROMs and doing stuff with it, I thought I'd never switch away from WinMobile. Until the real problems started.
A friend of mine got a Hero last year and I started playing around a bit. Android really seemed to me, that it is pretty nice and you can do a bunch of things with it. I then tried some Android things on my Tytn II and was pretty happy with playing around with it. My first Android experience was with the G1. But I really didn't like it back then.
Currently I use the iPhone I repaired for a friend (just some minor testing because I don't like it) and I must say, that I am already pretty accustomed to the touchscreen keyboard (like everyone knows, the touchscreen keyboards on Tytn II are crap) (and the iPhone sucks... did I mention that?). But, I always wanted a hardware keyboard again. The only good device currently is the Moto Droid. But it already lacks due to the processor and not natively having Android 2.1. So I looked around a bit and found the Nexus One. Would be pretty cool, but it's still not yet available in germany. So I waited. Then the MWC. HTC Desire. Now this is what I want and this is what I will get. Already pre-ordered and hopefully it will hit the market soon. Can't wait for it.
This will be my first Android device, but I look forward to a bright future with it I already like the customizability of it and of course the big screen and everything else. Despite the little things.
Well google, you lost a customer because of your inability to provide a new product to the whole world at the same time. Perhaps I'll think about it in 2 years
Balrog82 said:
Well google, you lost a customer because of your inability to provide a new product to the whole world at the same time. Perhaps I'll think about it in 2 years
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I would say that anything with android on it would still be considered a google phone since google came up with android in the first place. They get a customer either way
However, I have no idea how they make money out of this since it is open source. Maybe they are like huge donators to a charity for all us techno geeks, just to make life more pleasant for us.
Just wanted to say I recently traded my tp2 for 200$ plus a G1, and I couldn't have been happier. The G1 is GREAT. It's not rooted yet, but I already like the experience more then the Tp2 with sense.
Im going to be trading the G1 for a Magic soon, and I will get sense on that. Im sure I will enjoy it even more then.
I liked winmo 6.5. But 7 looks like garbage to me. So I jumped ship from a dieing platform, and I suggest others to do so aswell. Android is great.
plz delete!
im since 2 years an windows mobile user .. it all started with my lg ks20 .. i also have been just playin around with the diamond...
i think compared to android winmo is just the better OS, because of so many apps ... when i need a windows mobile app for making my mobile an touchpad , i just type on google.com "touchpad wm6.5" ... and there are successfull hits...
so why android ? the hd2 has:
- a bigger screen (i think 4,3 " is my limit, otherwise it would be too big for my pocket ... so i dont think that i´ll get the hd3)
- faster processor
- more apps (but spread in the www)
- capability in porting other ROMs on it (since many years)
also i think, that windows mobile 7 looks just disgusting... its not "windows" anymore ... the weird (and really too simple) interface, just like with any self made OS from other devices ....
when i see the windows mobile home screen interface, i want 20 ways to open a program , otherwise it isnt windows.... this is the thing, why i prefer windows mobile... its complicated, but when you read the manual, its easy ... and its expandable (other apps and so on)...
Hope the HD2 will arrive in 2 weeks ... i think i will be pretty happy with it...
Greetz
sallal
sallal said:
im since 2 years an windows mobile user .. it all started with my lg ks20 .. i also have been just playin around with the diamond...
i think compared to android winmo is just the better OS, because of so many apps ... when i need a windows mobile app for making my mobile an touchpad , i just type on google.com "touchpad wm6.5" ... and there are successfull hits...
so why android ? the hd2 has:
- a bigger screen (i think 4,3 " is my limit, otherwise it would be too big for my pocket ... so i dont think that i´ll get the hd3)
- faster processor
- more apps (but spread in the www)
- capability in porting other ROMs on it (since many years)
also i think, that windows mobile 7 looks just disgusting... its not "windows" anymore ... the weird (and really too simple) interface, just like with any self made OS from other devices ....
when i see the windows mobile home screen interface, i want 20 ways to open a program , otherwise it isnt windows.... this is the thing, why i prefer windows mobile... its complicated, but when you read the manual, its easy ... and its expandable (other apps and so on)...
Hope the HD2 will arrive in 2 weeks ... i think i will be pretty happy with it...
Greetz
sallal
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Your reasons why the HD2 (with WM 6.5) is better than Android:
1. Yes, it has a 4.3 inch screen, and currently there is no Android device that has such a huge screen. I myself find the screen beautiful, but would not mind using a slightly smaller screen. The HTC HD2 can be hard to use sometimes, because of that massive screen.
2. The 1 GHz processor is fast indeed, but the Nexus One and HTC Desire both have a 1 GHz processor as well. Since most people here are talking about the HTC Desire, this point makes no sense. Both have a 1 GHz processor.
3. Android Market = 20.000 apps and growing, fast. WM Marketplace = biggest Smartphone Application Store failure ever. Seriously.
And yes, there may be many 'apps' on the internet that you can use on the HTC HD2. But really, of what quality are they? First of all, they are random spread on the internet, so very hard to find. Secondly, they are made for Windows Mobile in GENERAL, or if you are lucky for Windows Mobile 6.5. But then again, it could be made for another device, with a 3.5 inch screen, which means it will not be optimized for the HTC HD2.
So what I am trying to say is: the HTC HD2 lacks good apps. Android Market on the other hand offers many applications, which are easy to find and install & usually better quality.
4. I think that you can use custom ROMs on Android devices as well, but I am no expert in that area.
So my vision is still, HTC Desire > HTC HD2
XDA mark said:
4. I think that you can use custom ROMs on Android devices as well, but I am no expert in that area.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Android, unlike win mo, is an open source operating system so the scope for new roms, new featurs etc is better than Windows Mobile.
Check G1 Android Development or Nexus One Android Development to see the vast amount of roms avaliable.
sallal said:
im since 2 years an windows mobile user .. it all started with my lg ks20 .. i also have been just playin around with the diamond...
i think compared to android winmo is just the better OS, because of so many apps ... when i need a windows mobile app for making my mobile an touchpad , i just type on google.com "touchpad wm6.5" ... and there are successfull hits...
so why android ? the hd2 has:
- a bigger screen (i think 4,3 " is my limit, otherwise it would be too big for my pocket ... so i dont think that i´ll get the hd3)
- faster processor
- more apps (but spread in the www)
- capability in porting other ROMs on it (since many years)
also i think, that windows mobile 7 looks just disgusting... its not "windows" anymore ... the weird (and really too simple) interface, just like with any self made OS from other devices ....
when i see the windows mobile home screen interface, i want 20 ways to open a program , otherwise it isnt windows.... this is the thing, why i prefer windows mobile... its complicated, but when you read the manual, its easy ... and its expandable (other apps and so on)...
Hope the HD2 will arrive in 2 weeks ... i think i will be pretty happy with it...
Greetz
sallal
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry mate but I think a mega fail on your part, you just bought a device that can only run at this stage on a dying OS that will be unsupported shortly. No new fancy apps or games..... And technically you are not a convert, so why you posting?
I will be switching to the desire after having my blackstone for a year. I hate win-mo. No matter which version (6.1 -too old, 6.5 - still ugly and looks the same as 6.1, or 6.5.x which looks slightly better but that's it) I always try and improve things. That's the prob I find, it doesn't do what most people want it to do straight out of the box. You have to apply a zillion reg fixes, patches, work arounds all to get something android does straight out of the box..... Can't wait!!!! been fiddling with android on my blackstone and it rules, so pretty and logical
For reference on the switching to Android from WM thing, I bought an n1 a month or so ago, with great hesitation, and came from a TP2. I've been an avid WM guy for about 2 years, mostly due to being amazed at eeeeverything you could do.
The just works thing is the best answer. But it's also more of a black box, yet more customizable. linux is no registry having windows system. however, sense on android makes wm touchflo rediculous. The home system is completely different but similar thinking. The Android homescreen with sense is seven screens, customizable completely and easily with either shortcuts or widgets, smaller tiny always on versions of programs that you choose. htc designed a widget to replace each pane on the WM version, for example text email weather etc.
But there is a big similarity. The weather clock, the dialer, the keyboard, and mostly the weather widget, is exactly, down to color and design, the same. And so when converting to Android, if you liked htc, the desire will be instantly usable.
For more info you can search my thread in the TP2 forum. By the way I am dying to have an Android phone released like the TP2, except more 2010: very thin, wider screen, good speakerphone nice keyboard. I'ld buy that droid in a heartbeat if it was gsm, b ut i hate the keyboard. thats the idea though, or like the toshiba g1 w/ the qwerty version.
Retiring my TP2 today. Just had to get that out of my system.
Signed,
Another unsatisfied customer.
Quitter.
You are darn right I am a quitter! And proud of it! I just can't believe I lasted this long.
lame. though i would love an android phone with the form factor of the tp2. the keyboard and tilty screen has made every iphone user i know impossibly jealous. but its not a phone i can recommend because of windows mobile. windows mobile works well, with a custom rom, registry hacks, and custom installed programs. android is just easier out of the box. i look forward to htc releasing an android phone with a good slide out keyboard.
Nobody can blame you for leaving this device. You're the third person who's posted a thread about abandoning the Rhodium, and I doubt you're the last. I'm personally holding out for the HTC Vision and it's beautiful looking QWERTY, but there are so many great options out there it's extremely tempting just to sell my Rhodium on eBay and buy a Desire or some other decent phone right now.
Yeah dude I was originally going to hold out for that HTC Vision also, but I just can't take it any longer. Flashing custom WM ROM's and installing certain cabs and reloading all my tweeks and stuff is just too time consuming. Holy cow do I waste a lot of time reading xda! When you see how fluid some other devices are out there, at some time you have to ask yourself what the point of all this is? There is nothing WM can do that Andoid can not do and better (for me that is). I have tremendous respect for the developers on this site but I think WM is a dying breed. The TP2 should not have been as crippled as it is either.
I dunno, I have to wonder if there's a big difference between your TP2 and my Tilt 2 because I am having very few issues with mine even after modding the hell out of the stock ROM (no compelling reason to go to a cooked one yet). Yeah, WinMo has its issues, but I've been using it since WM2003 on a Viewsonic PDA, so I'm pretty familiar with it. My Tilt 2 does everything I need it to, much like My Incite did. The only reason I upgraded was because I needed a larger screen for my failing eyes. Anyway, I was just ribbing you. I might go to an Android at some point, but for now, my Tilt 2 has me covered. The honeymoon isn't quite over just yet.
I left the party and went over to Android. For me, it was more of a preemptive thing -- WP7 is an abhorrent POS and while I probably would have stuck around if a 4.3" device with WinMo 6.5 was being released, it looks like the TP2 is all she wrote for WinMo.
XDA was absolutely crucial to my being able to use and enjoy my TP2. But I don't have to live with buggy software anymore (actually, the things I got from XDA were stable, but the commercial products were certainly not).
If anyone is interested, Sprint in coming out with the Samsung Epic, a 4" SAMOLED 4G Android device with a slide out keyboard. But I've moved on to the Evo. I've coveted the HD2 and its Snapdragon processor and 4.3" screen for ages.
In the end, MS finally killed whatever enthusiasm I had for the platform.
You know I tried everything. I too modded the stock and still this thing lagged. The best I could do was cooked ROMs but still it was one thing after another that just got me to the point where I was milliseconds away from shattering my phone into a thousand pieces for some gratitude. Talk about rage! I honestly think I have worn out the reset button. And as far as WP7, give me a break. I can't believe that Microsoft is so far behind the game and now they are trying to reinvent the wheel. Cell phones and cell phone technology are a crazy booming and growing business. It's sad when a technology company tries to reverse engineer something because in this day and age by this time it's just too late.
tbh ever since Android came out, i always wanted one but since it started hitting the market, every damn person i know has an Android and it ticks me off because it totally reminds me of how iPhone got all popular, now Android is in that stage, teens are having the Droid incredible, EVO 4Gs its insane because i bet you 95% of them dont even know how to operate it, thats why right now im sticking to my roots by staying with WM because no one knows what the heck it is(except XDA ), i rather have something different from the crowd.....i started with WM and ill hang on to WM until the whole WM thing just dies which probably wont happen for awhile you never know
man thats a tiny slide out keyboard on the vision. im not so sure about that one.
If different is what you are going for then I say stick to WM. Personally for me, I need function and ease of use. To me, Microsoft is their own worst enemy for not delivering without making us spend hours on xda fixing their mistakes. Although it can be fun here on xda, it can be really frustrating as well.
To me, WinMo seems designed by the same people that design the desktop platform and not by people who actually use it every day. Too many things that just don't make sense (but easily fixed by others, fortunately). I think M$ needs to hire a few XDA developers and put them into the development cycle for WinMo. If WinMo 7 isn't a significant improvement it will be the last WinMo version because once the phone manufacturers stop supporting it in favor of Droid and others, death will be imminent.
And when you see Microsoft developing apps for iPhone and Android yet still plug away at their own software ala "Kin the spectacular failure" I can't help but be embarassed to be a part of this. Playing catchup in the tech world is just plain silly to me. Here is an article about it posted 3 days ago:
http://mobile.venturebeat.com/2010/...developers-to-catch-up-to-iphone-and-android/
Don't know if everyone's already seen this:
http://www.infoworld.com/d/mobilize/windows-phone-7-dont-bother-disaster-211
"The developers at Mobile Beat quickly recognized the labor-intensity of this UI method and one asked the Microsoft rep if anyone had bothered to test it with users. The answer was essentially "no" -- a scary thought indeed."
Sounds just like what I said earlier.
Hanson68 said:
Don't know if everyone's already seen this:
http://www.infoworld.com/d/mobilize/windows-phone-7-dont-bother-disaster-211
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Click to collapse
Then, be sure to read this as well.
I dunno, maybe it's because I've been using WinMo since 2003 but I'm comfortable with it. The biggest problem is there are still remnants in the 6.x versions being used on phones from when it was ported from PDAs back with version 5. Too much stuff designed for a stylus and not a finger. Another problem is that WinMo is not designed for idiots like iPhone users who have no concept of the level of customization that WinMo allows. I like that I have to be more knowledgeable to get the most out of my WinMo phone. It means I can more readily identify when something doesn't work right and why and fix it myself. I also love that I can make my phone more personal and not look like anyone elses. Every iPhone I've ever played around on, with the exception of what apps were on it, was identical to every other one in looks and function. Maybe this is OK for those with limited ability to mod their own phone, but I'm a tinkerer by nature and it would drive me crazy. Been modding my phone since my first RAZR way back in 2006 and wouldn't have it any other way.
I also like that I'm not tied to any one company for apps. For all the complaints I hear about so few developers writing for WinMo I have yet to not find an app for my needs. In fact, there are usually about 4-5 apps that do the same thing and almost always at least one is free. Sure, some are crap, but choice is a good thing. Certainly much better than limits.
I love my Windows Mobile phone and if WP7 improves on it even just a little, I'll probably stick with it.
Personally, I am really liking my WinMo 6.5 tilt 2. Yes, it has a cooked ROM and a few other tweaks, but so did my iphone that I had before this Tilt2. IMHO, as far as useability, and business is concerned, the Tilt2 is all business and not so much a toy (which is what I look for in a phone, since I run a home business from it.).
Scott
I think anybody who has taken the time to flash a custom rom for themselves here can be considered a power user. Everybody on this board wants more than the next guy. But what do you do when you've been let down and this place just isn't enough anymore? I have had Windows CE devices since 2002 and as silly as this sounds, my favorite device was my old T-mobile MDA with WM 5.0. Why? Because it worked. Now I realize that we are trying to do a lot more with our devices, but even simple tasks like text messaging and the actual phone part seems to get worse with each new OS. When I watch the videos for WP7 I am very let down. Customization is key to the MS fanbase. So the things that I would like are either getting worse or going away. Why MS didn't just turn over the whole program to XDA is a real mystery isn't it? Since I honestly think that we are the only ones who really care.
There appear to be a number of folk here who feel that WP7 is a step backward from WM6.5 in terms of feature set, customisability, hackability etc. What then would people propose as an alternative once WM6.5 is finally dead and buried, Android? Iphone? Symbian/ Maemo? or will you give WP7 a chance?
adesonic said:
There appear to be a number of folk here who feel that WP7 is a step backward from WM6.5 in terms of feature set, customisability, hackability etc. What then would people propose as an alternative once WM6.5 is finally dead and buried, Android? Iphone? Symbian/ Maemo? or will you give WP7 a chance?
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Click to collapse
So much fight here about it.....
Well I'm still not decided.
But I know I want to give WP7 a go.
Looks great and I would be happy to have clean, unified UI.
Limitations which are apparent on WP7 make it unusable at this point.
Android is the most complete but I just really don't like it's interface...
Probably staying with 6.5 for some time....
i personally cant be bothered to hack my my phone and look for custom ROM to flash. surely people only do this if they are not happy with their phone.if you dont like the OS. dont get it. its the reason why im not getting android, or an iphone. all phones have great features missing from them. and wp7 is only in its first phase improvement like copy and paste will come. ive only got 1 complaint, and that is that i cannot use it as a flash drive but then again, if i did that, would it slow down to a crawl??? wp7 is dead easy, i dont have time to muck around like i used to with wm6.5 on my touch diamond 2. i want it all, and i want it all now. so im sticking with wp7.
davidebanks said:
i personally cant be bothered to hack my my phone and look for custom ROM to flash. surely people only do this if they are not happy with their phone.if you dont like the OS. dont get it. its the reason why im not getting android, or an iphone. all phones have great features missing from them. and wp7 is only in its first phase improvement like copy and paste will come. ive only got 1 complaint, and that is that i cannot use it as a flash drive but then again, if i did that, would it slow down to a crawl??? wp7 is dead easy, i dont have time to muck around like i used to with wm6.5 on my touch diamond 2. i want it all, and i want it all now. so im sticking with wp7.
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Same thoughts here. Was cooking my own 6.5roms to get a slim and working OS but sinceI got my HD7, I've stop cooking totally because WP7 is very fast and stable for me. Sure there are areas I'm not happy with, but at least, I have more time to live my life now since I stopped cooking roms.
I'm not here to convince anyone to go WP7, each OS has it's pros and cons, and each of us are completely different and see things and have different needs, so we go for different phones, something that works for us.
zard said:
Same thoughts here. Was cooking my own 6.5roms to get a slim and working OS but sinceI got my HD7, I've stop cooking totally because WP7 is very fast and stable for me. Sure there are areas I'm not happy with, but at least, I have more time to live my life now since I stopped cooking roms.
I'm not here to convince anyone to go WP7, each OS has it's pros and cons, and each of us are completely different and see things and have different needs, so we go for different phones, something that works for us.
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LOL , you just made a lot of people angry by stopping with cooking rom's .
I think I will stick with wm 6.5 for awhile. I use it as a Mass storage device & tether with it often. I also am really used to using smart dialing which I can't understand why it wasn't added to WP7. I'll wait to a few months after WP7 lands on Sprint to see what the updates have brought & what hackers have opened. If more functionality is available on WP7 I'll get it, if not I'll go with Android when I want to upgrade because of hardware
shouldn't this be in the winmo section???
adesonic said:
There appear to be a number of folk here who feel that WP7 is a step backward from WM6.5 in terms of feature set, customisability, hackability etc. What then would people propose as an alternative once WM6.5 is finally dead and buried, Android? Iphone? Symbian/ Maemo? or will you give WP7 a chance?
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Click to collapse
I'm going to wait for the 2nd generation of WP7 phones and OS (or at least an OS update or two). I was ready to get a focus, then I realized I'd be losing some features I enjoy on my TP2 (multitasking, tethering, call manager) just to gain a newer OS.
I also want premium hardware and design which the first generation doesn't seem to offer. DVP comes close though.
i switched to android, never looked back
WhyBe said:
I'm going to wait for the 2nd generation of WP7 phones and OS (or at least an OS update or two). I was ready to get a focus, then I realized I'd be losing some features I enjoy on my TP2 (multitasking, tethering, call manager) just to gain a newer OS.
I also want premium hardware and design which the first generation doesn't seem to offer. DVP comes close though.
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Click to collapse
wait, you are using a plastic phone with a plastic resistive screen and are talking about premium hardware???
There should be another choice "I would celebrate with Dom Perignon!" Please put the 6.5 out of it's misery already!
One thing is sure for me, I will not be joinging the iPhone family.
Possibly Maemo or Androd. Depends what kiind of devices will be out by then.
W7 only if there has been lots of needed updates and/or hacks/roms and such.
Any poll in a specific device forum will always have support for that device.
Poll threads should be in common forum to get a neutral response from ALL, IF the thread starter wants to know EVERYONE's opinion.
Just my 2C
nrfitchett4 said:
shouldn't this be in the winmo section???
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Life after WM6.5 to which he refers is precisely WP7. then the correct section!
A little off-topic, but correct!
I found that I was having to flash new ROMs etc to my 6.5 because the UI and features available to a standard WinMo was rubbish. I never liked the 6.5 OS much, I just liked the ability to customise and look deeper into the phone
I am now on WP7 and would never look back on 6.5.
At the moment I don't see I have much choice - Android here I come I think.
The gains in slick simple UI are insufficient in my case to outweigh the loss of functionality vs 6.5.
Many of the other advantages (gaming for example) are of no interest to me on my phone (I am not the target market).
I will stick with 6.5 until at least Phone Alarm is released for Android, then it will become viable for me. Hopefully this will be early 2011.
nrfitchett4 said:
wait, you are using a plastic phone with a plastic resistive screen and are talking about premium hardware???
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:lol: My premium phone standards were set by my SE X1, not the TP2. I would really love to see a WP7 version of the X1. Hopefully the X7 will deliver. But knowing SE, it won't be released until next November.
WhyBe said:
:lol: My premium phone standards were set by my SE X1, not the TP2. I would really love to see a WP7 version of the X1. Hopefully the X7 will deliver. But knowing SE, it won't be released until next November.
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Click to collapse
Ditto. X1 was excellent.
Currently on X2 which is actually better in many regards.
Anyway, I just hope SE will make it around Feb/March.
So it will catch upgrades which are for me necessary.
And until core apps I use on WM 6.5 will be functional/supported
I can just wait for some time....
I find it hard to believe anyone speaks of the death of WinMo in the present tense. It died for me like 2 1/2 years ago and since then the iPhone has taken over the smartphone market, Android has taken over the spot WM6.5 used to occupy and Microsoft has done practically nothing until very recently. I bought a Focus and I like it, it's a magnitude nicer and easier to use than my old Fuze with WM6.5 and while it's lacking a lot of the functionality, that will come with time and, in the meantime, I don't need to take out my reading glasses and itty bitty cramp inducing stylus to use it. The Fuze is still sitting on my desk, unused, with a noticable layer of dust on it. And there it will sit until I finally tire of looking at it and throw it away. And good riddance!
I cannot speak for anyone but for me, I have been windows mobile user ever since palm treo with windows on it. Before making switch to WP7, my device was Tilt2 and I tweaked the crap out of it putting custom roms and radio to fit my taste. Although having the capability was great but my user experience was not all that great. Something was always wrong and the hardware and software wasn't working correctly, so I was constantly tweaking and tell you the truth I got tired.
I was ready to jump ship to Android with Samsung Captivate but as soon as the WP7 was arriving I decided to wait. Boy I am glad that I did, I am happy with my samsung focus. Although it's missing some functions now but I am sure it's on it's way, the stability and the fact that it just works and I do not have to tweak anything makes my life a lot easier. Could not be more happy with OS. At least so far.
My wife has iphone and looked at android and both are not really appealing to me. Android is not all that great even if with all the customization and tweaking.
I am one of the faithful WM6.5 users. I do not care how cool my device is like most fake people that have moved on to Android & IPHONE cause their friends say they should. I feel that WM is still the best all around OS thought they all offer good things.
I would love to set goals for the future of WM6.5 like tryin to port FLASH 10.1. They did it for the IPHONE so it should be possible for WM. Also since we know software makers are walkin away from us for Android IPHONE and WP7 so i assume development for our devices will be done by the geniuses at XDA. I am not ready to walk away from this platform yet. I think we can keep it going for another year. Lets make 2011 the year of WINDOWS MOBILE. I want this thread to be dedicated to askin developers on XDA what new ideas they have for WM 6.1 & 6.5.
If you have ideas for games, ports, regedits, or programs to make our devices better please post below.
RULES:
DO NOT post tellin us what your favorite OS is or what the best OS is. Everyone knows that different people like different OS's.
DO NOT get upset if someone disagrees with your opinion.
DO NOT post unless you have something good to say about WM. This is a thread that is for people that want to better the WM OS not bash it. If you prefer Android or IPHONE then I am sure you can find somewhere to talk about how they are better than WM but do not do it here.
DO NOT tell us how WM is a dying OS, we know this already.
DO NOT post things such as your career or academic achievments and somehow link it to WM users being more or less intelligent then other users.
DO NOT post unless you love WM period!
WM is still very powerful operating system, but only if you can use it potential.
I wonder why people are more into simple-yet-dumb OS's which simply limit user.
On windows mobile, i can listen to music through bluetooth headset, share my 3g+ connection with laptop, browse html5 websites with flash and all of it on one device. And thats just beggining.
On the note to successor, WP7, where the hell is copy/paste? Dumb.
I love to copy commands from notepad to my remote desktop connection to use quick server commands.
BTW. I'm still laughing my ass off when i think about NO multitasking on iphone.
retsam88 said:
WM is still very powerful operating system, but only if you can use it potential.
I wonder why people are more into simple-yet-dumb OS's which simply limit user.
On windows mobile, i can listen to music through bluetooth headset, share my 3g+ connection with laptop, browse html5 websites with flash and all of it on one device. And thats just beggining.
On the note to successor, WP7, where the hell is copy/paste? Dumb.
I love to copy commands from notepad to my remote desktop connection to use quick server commands.
BTW. I'm still laughing my ass off when i think about NO multitasking on iphone.
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We r using it to its potential as of now but it can be better. As I mentioned FLASH 10.1 which was ran on the HD2 in a video but was never released for WM instead went to Android and was ported to the IPHONE. I think we should start a movement to get these things workin on WM. There is alot of useless apps being made and I would luv to see the developers move towards making our devices better instead of making them "cooler."
I totally agree - I am using WM5/6 as target devices for my private and business projects.
But it seems like the wm programmers are in short the veterans of programming. A little crowd (did someone say 3 are a crowd?) of people that stand to their mobile os :-D
I've been using android for a while and I have to say wm has the throne in productivity. I mean, I can play in android but wm can satisfy my needs mare than any other os
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using XDA App
I've had a WM device for 3 years now, and it's old news. There's not even one...ONE single good sports app. How is there not one. Developers don't care about WM6. It's been swept under the carpet and it's sad because I still have a Treo Pro.
I totally agree for this post !
I hope that we have soon the the new wm6.X builds (WM6.5 handset,etc...) with new features and new API !!!!!
Why they are moving for less sophisticated OS? That's easy to answer. When Palm was the king of the hill, do you know what was the best selling PDA they had? It was the entry level Zire22 (lowres screen, no sdcard support, ...). Why? Because the vast majority of users are lowend. They will never:
1. sync with their computers
2. install anything new, use what was given with the phone/pda
3. tweak it
We are NOT regular users, and also, we are NOT the biggest buying group. They are business oriented, will manufacture what sells.
You can see the same with games. Who remembers the best racing simulator ever done, GrandPrix Legends by Papyrus? It was so hard to drive that it fail miserably on sales, they shifted their focus to a more arcade kind of games (best sellers).
I totaly agree and i think the same way that Win Mo is the Best OS right now and will tell why.
1st because WinMo is fully Costumizable in every aspect not only visual, so WinMo is the base if you have a WinMo Device for few seconds you can make it look like iOS or Anroid or Windows Mobile 7 or.. you name it.. so the WindowsMobile 6.X give use the freedom and is like chameleon on the same time.
I dont like stupid OS like the iPhone just icons icons and icons everywhere..
Android... you move widgets and etc this is all of course now i have Android look with SBP shell and when im totally pissed of i aways can just uninstall it))))))))))))
Honestly i like Android only for the Speed, and if we talk here honest we all know that WindowsMobile 6.x is SLOW OS by saying slow i mean compared to Android or iOS but overal WindowsMobile is good OS for everyday use if you costumize and optimize it
The things that we can do with our devices NO ONE can do them with Android or iOS or WM7 this is the TRUE.
Im not programer but i believe that many interesting thing can be done if here have serious peoples who love WM 6.x
And i really think that WinMo is still the KING because give us Freedom.
Couldn't agree more!wm6.5.x is quite decent .But lack of latest apps will be a problem as many software companies are no longer providing WM supports.many of apps running on my Omnia2 are last released 1 or 2 years ago and some of them are just not designed for 800X480 screen.
I have been a WinMo supporter since 2003SE. And I recently upgraded from my Tilt2 to the HTC Surround. I have to admit WP7 just works better. But Do not get me wrong, I will never give up my Tilt2. I love that device. I love trying new ROMs, using RDP, and most of all the keyboard. And I will continue my support of WM until Microsoft officially calls it EOL.
You know why people move to android? It's easier to use, more finger friendly, widely supported in terms of games, based on linux (doesnt get much more open source if you really want to dig), and its generally more physically appealing. Even with SPB mobile shell Windows mobile 6.5 looks like crap. I have an HD2 but aside from theming it to look like WP7 I've been using it primarily for android because, hey, I like to have FUN with my phone. When is the last time a truly GOOD app was made for winmo? I remember warspear a few years back that's about it. You pull together enough people to completely rejuvenate a lifeless OS and I will eat my own shoe on youtube for all of you. Til then.
Android: Functionality/Fun
WP7: Ease of use/glorified feature phone
iphone: Overpriced status symbol
WM5/6: Flatline
i didnt like 6.5, i thought it sucked. i did like 6.1 tho.
either way its a dead os with no new apps being devloped or updated. will have to wait to see what wp7 brings
The things that we can do with our devices NO ONE can do them with Android or iOS or WM7 this is the TRUE.
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Lmao. This dude is trapped in a fantasy world.
1. There's a reason that the Android section of this forum has more threads in Apps and Games, Themes, and Software development than Windows Mobile...and it hasn't even been around as long!
2. There's a reason everyone wants to mod their Windows Mobible devices to look like droids, AND even install the android os on their WM devices.
Tell me ONE thing, ONE THING that your WM6.5 or whatever it is can do, that an android phone can't, except make a less expensive paper weight?
I have a Palm Treo Pro, and as much as I love this phone, it's old news. I want a droid. WM is dead.
Long live to Windows Mobile!!
I think WM is far away to being considered as dead, of course MS wants that but it will depend on us users and Chefs & Devs to keep it alive!!
I still prefer it over WP7 and Android!
A voting for the best Developers award will be soon announced as a tribute to our beloved WM!
As much as I love WM, there is a simple fact, developers will develop for the popular platforms first and users will go where there are apps...just like games sell consoles, apps will drive smart devices.
WM is good, but MS has never made it easy to develop on, compact .net has always been lacking and you need a pro version of visual studio (with it's huge price tag). The fact that you can develop windows phone 7 using Visual Studio Express 2010 - which is free and that even the Pro version of Visual Studio 2010 does not support WM, shows that MS are doing their best to kill off WM, they've even removed many of the WebCasts for developing WM from their site so you can't even get the information you used to have available.
Add to that whole new area's of TV streaming devices and Tablets which are likely to support Android or iOS stuff and WM ends up being a smaller and smaller old and tired fish in a fast expanding pond of young competition.
You can see here, that the forum has already swung from WM!
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=866626
I totally agree with meltwater. WM is going to die soon or later. In this moment I''m totally happy with my Touch HD, CHT 2.0 gave me all the flexibility on home page I was looking for. I can't find nothing on the other platforms I don't find for my actual phone, a part maybe something related to augmented reality.
On the other way I've already tried Android on my HD and works very well, considered all the limitations. Pity for camera and FM Radio, I use them so Android can't be for a daily use. But if they'll be able to solve last problems it's possible I'll start to use Android, more to start to use and learn the OS so to be ready when really new phones/tablet will come in the market. To say the truth I always liked big screens, so if next year a very good 7" tablet will be in the market with optimized Android (3.0?) and a price near 400 Euros, I'll definitely change the wagon.
About WP7, i appreciate Microsoft efforts, but I don't like at all . I've seen iPhone 4 and it's spectacular to see in use, nothing to say. But overpriced and not for me, similar to WP7 too many limitations.
meltwater said:
As much as I love WM, there is a simple fact, developers will develop for the popular platforms first and users will go where there are apps...just like games sell consoles, apps will drive smart devices.
WM is good, but MS has never made it easy to develop on, compact .net has always been lacking and you need a pro version of visual studio (with it's huge price tag). The fact that you can develop windows phone 7 using Visual Studio Express 2010 - which is free and that even the Pro version of Visual Studio 2010 does not support WM, shows that MS are doing their best to kill off WM, they've even removed many of the WebCasts for developing WM from their site so you can't even get the information you used to have available.
Add to that whole new area's of TV streaming devices and Tablets which are likely to support Android or iOS stuff and WM ends up being a smaller and smaller old and tired fish in a fast expanding pond of young competition.
You can see here, that the forum has already swung from WM!
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=866626
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I feel that there are quite a few misunderstandings in this thread. The first is that if developers were going to wait for MS to come up with the goods in the first place, this forum would have never existed. In fact, we would have been relegated to overpriced and monetiseed structures for selling icons and ringtones like the Symbian people.
Secondly, a person's reason for getting an Android phone or iPhone are different to that of the Windows user. Blame it on the recession, blame it on the lower IQ of the average smartphone user, either way the basis of buying Android or iPhone is a product of good marketing and the science of hype,like buying an ipod when instead you could stick a stereo jack in your phone and have all the same stuff. I bought my first WM phone years before I saw an ad for it, because Im a bit of tech junkie and I jumped at the opportunity to have so much functionality in a mobile platform. The decorations came later.
Thirdly, the constant habit of WM users customising their handsets to look like other platforms is for entertainment purposes only, we knew we could always press the hard-reset button and put the hype behind us.
Fourth, Microsoft always does the same thing of taking away support or info when they bring out a new OS. As much as I love Windows Mobile, I dont like Microsoft. The only way to move new product is to stop support for the biggest seller, I remember when they did the same thing with Windows 98 when XP came out.
Conclusion: If youre looking to resell common-place technology (thats been around for years) to hyped-up half wits, then Android/iPhone is the way to go. Its hard to pull the wool over a real Windows Mobile user's eyes,unfortunately.
Windows FTW always
I started using windows mobile long long ago and for its time it was something epic. However, once other smartphones came into play they were just unable to keep the pace. Sure, your phone CAN do a lot more, theres customizations on windows phones that android may not have for a long time. However if they'd been smart and invested some time when phones became more finger friendly rather than still forcing stylus usage when devices with "touch" in the name came out then they'd be a lot better off. Android in some aspects will never catch winmo, you just can't get that open source and expect to have a clean user experience. In some ways we may never catch up to winmo, parts of what they did may still be considered revolutionary 20 years from now but in a lot of ways we passed up windows mobile 2 years ago when the g1 came to pass because we took what you could do, we made it easier to develop, and we made it user-friendly to start out with. Windows mobile will remain a developers phone... if you want to shell out an unreal price for software that you wont make money off of anymore due to it being a dead operating system.