Related
Im sure that got your attention...
There seems to be some recent issues with the massive amounts of new members that just learned how to type but dont know how to read or click the search button located in the upper right corner of your screen...
Now look, enough is enough, if your not going to read, or search, or post things in the proper threads then dont ***** when your being flamed... This forum has very simple rules and i used to think they werent hard to follow...
some of you will say, "The search button doesnt work, just brings up a bunch of junk and i have to sift through useless threads and cant find what i am looking for".... anyone wanna guess why?!? its because of the people that post without reading, its becoming a cluttered mess and a few noob's short of xda-developers.howardsforums.com
So some suggestions before you post:
Search
Read the f*cking wiki
Make your posting it in the right thread
If you have to start a new topic then make sure you include very detailed information if you want help, otherwise you will be ignored
If you like a rom then dont waste thread space by telling the creator how much you like the rom, update your signature and proudly display what rom you are using, or donate some $ to XDA, or to the creator(s)
Be smart and the other members will play nice
Oh one other thing to the frequent senior members (or the ones that dont post useless ****)
Instead of flaming on the noob's(which i know is fun ) could we just ignore them instead? im shooting for a less hostile enviroment.
p.s. any useless replies to this topic could be subject to edit
my new hero
dude you are so my new hero
A heuristic noob post filter would be nice, automatically diverting such posts to the New Beginners Forum called /dev/null . . . or "Recycle Bin" for you Windows guys
Yes, lately there have been a huge number of new members, and yes, the noob questions are sometimes annoying.
But to
3) Flame the crap out of them
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is in my opinion not the right way to react.
Some more or less senior members have tried that in the last few weeks, and it didn't work - there are still as many noob posts as there were before.
But that approach definitely changed this place - from being a friendly and helpful forum to a hostile place full of foul language and an arrogance from some "senior" members who seem to think newcomers are inferior human beings. You know, there are areas where the Wiki has outdated or incomplete information, so "Read The F*ing Wiki" is not always the appropriate answer.
And even in cases where it is, insulting people like it has become standard here by a few "senior" members is extremely rude, and for me is not an acceptable way of communication.
Thanks for listening,
Daniel
tadzio said:
But that approach definitely changed this place - from being a friendly and helpful forum to a hostile place full of foul language and an arrogance from some "senior" members who seem to think newcomers are inferior human beings. You know, there are areas where the Wiki has outdated or incomplete information, so "Read The F*ing Wiki" is not always the appropriate answer.
And even in cases where it is, insulting people like it has become standard here by a few "senior" members is extremely rude, and for me is not an acceptable way of communication.
Thanks for listening,
Daniel
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I totally agree with you, moderators or seniors should never use such language, no matter hoe right they are.
Shogunmark and some other "seniors", you should be ashamed of yourself...
pietrucci said:
I totally agree with you, moderators or seniors should never use such language, no matter hoe right they are.
Shogunmark and some other "seniors", you should be ashamed of yourself...
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Just to clarify: my comment wasn't directed towards shogunmark. In the first post of this thread, he also asks senior members to stop flaming noobs.
that might not be in a proper place to say , i may sound noob .
but i have a suggestion , why don't you make a spam bot like some forums do .
that spam bot detects autimatically any posts by the same user if they are close in time of posting ,
example : user named Noob posted 4 threads with the same exact content in less than 10 minutes .
"hi i'm noob and i don't know **** in this forum and i'm having fun ."
so the spam bot detect this noob posts and informs the moderators of it .
i hope it might help .
WBR
shogunmark said:
some of you will say, "The search button doesnt work, just brings up a bunch of junk and i have to sift through useless threads and cant find what i am looking for".... anyone wanna guess why?!? its because of the people that post without reading, its becoming a cluttered mess and a few noob's short of xda-developers.howardsforums.com
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in point of fact, the search button is "useless" because it defaults to the "show thread" mode in displaying query results. the "show thread" search result display mode presents only the topic ("thread / thread starter") under which the relevant result was posted (and thus only the ability to click into the thread from the first post). the response to any given query is therefore a list of top-level post titles (topics) which may or may not have relevance to the more deeply-nestled posts that the search engine has deemed pertinent to the user's inputted keywords/constraints. this is exacerbated by the default forum settings, which yield in excess of 50 display pages for many threads-- a condition that becomes all the more likely when a thread generates a lot of traffic/discourse (i.e.; when a thread might likely contain a worthwhile and relevant search result).
i find search results displayed in this fashion to be utterly useless. if i'm looking for an answer to question A, which was raised under topic X three weeks and 400 posts after the thread began, i'll never find it. i'd probably then start a new thread with just that already-answered question as it's topic-- certainly and evidently to the chagrin of moderators forum-wide, but within their power to remedy.
incidentally, what if any advantage is there to the default display method? i may be showing some naivete here, but i've never found it at all useful (quite the contrary); i use the forum's search engine only and precisely in those cases where my brain's proprietary search agency has failed-- that is, *because* no thread topic seems applicable to my question, i pose it to the engine, and on its default setting, it responds by reiterating the top-level subjects i've already discarded.
that is the very definition of uselessness in search results, the blame for which, i think, does not lay with new users as you claim, but with a (seemingly?) foolish server setting.
shogunmark said:
Instead of flaming on the noob's(which i know is fun ) could we just ignore them instead? im shooting for a less hostile enviroment.
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it's never the new users who are hostile, though, is it? in fact, they're usually overly obsequious, probably owing to the fact that every time in the past that they've asked a question of one of the hallowed mobile-device-forum moderators, they've been made to feel stupid for lacking experience enough to solve their own problem. systematic ignorance of any one sector of the mobile device community would conspicuously diminish the broad appeal and utility of xda-developers amazing wealth of techknowledge.
Simple. When people register - send them an email that explains some of the forum do's and don'ts and how to search for individual posts.
I never meant for this to spark such a debate,
the point i wanted to make was this is a "technical development forum" and should be treated as such
if the situation spirals into too much garbage then the people who actually contribute to this community might give up due to frustration that could have otherwise been avoided.
i much prefer to be a forum troll rather than a post count hungry noise creator.
But at the moment even being a reader not poster sucks
/rant
endipott said:
in point of fact, the search button is "useless" because it defaults to the "show thread" mode in displaying query results. the "show thread" search result display mode presents only the topic ("thread / thread starter") under which the relevant result was posted (and thus only the ability to click into the thread from the first post). the response to any given query is therefore a list of top-level post titles (topics) which may or may not have relevance to the more deeply-nestled posts that the search engine has deemed pertinent to the user's inputted keywords/constraints. this is exacerbated by the default forum settings, which yield in excess of 50 display pages for many threads-- a condition that becomes all the more likely when a thread generates a lot of traffic/discourse (i.e.; when a thread might likely contain a worthwhile and relevant search result).
i find search results displayed in this fashion to be utterly useless. if i'm looking for an answer to question A, which was raised under topic X three weeks and 400 posts after the thread began, i'll never find it. i'd probably then start a new thread with just that already-answered question as it's topic-- certainly and evidently to the chagrin of moderators forum-wide, but within their power to remedy.
Blah blah blah
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Have you never seen the link for "SEARCH THIS THREAD"? its not hard.
I want to know, mmm, which SPL to use, i get a myriad of search results, some CLEARLY from the headers useful.
However, i've searched something a little more ambigeuos, i find and open what i feel are relevant threads, then search them. The 5 mins it takes to do that search will 99.9% of the time result in an answer, and take them less time than waiting for someone to answer.
Currently there are a massive amoun tof new idiots on the forums. Im fairly new myself, but i read the Wiki, read most of the current threads and searched before i asked for something. Its not hard.
Personally i think the forum needs for stronger moderation, in that users are given a three strike rule. Post utter rubbish without searchinig three times, and they become banned.
Clearly anyone not capable of the simplest of forum ettiqette doesnt belong here and will never really contribute anything.
tadzio
you dont have to be politically correct, you can name me as being a senior member who uses foul language. the fact of the matter is i dont give a crap!. i have to deal with hundreds of PM's per day asking the darn same thing and its getting frikken annoying.
i think from this point forward i will hold off on new builds of wm6 till this forum gets sorted.
One thing you have to realise, these noobs who ask the same darn thing over and over again are mostly (not all) here NOT to contribute to the vast pool of knowledge, they are here to frikken leach, then if something dont work for them they frikken complain, *****, winge, and post numerious threads and posts.
I am not ashamed of myself because i dont give a ****.... i think i got the right to use foul language when enough is enough.,
my ****en 2cents worth!
anybody doest like what i am saying can go **** themselves and use wm5! Welcome to the Land Down Under ****wits!
tadzio said:
Yes, lately there have been a huge number of new members, and yes, the noob questions are sometimes annoying.
But to
is in my opinion not the right way to react.
Some more or less senior members have tried that in the last few weeks, and it didn't work - there are still as many noob posts as there were before.
But that approach definitely changed this place - from being a friendly and helpful forum to a hostile place full of foul language and an arrogance from some "senior" members who seem to think newcomers are inferior human beings. You know, there are areas where the Wiki has outdated or incomplete information, so "Read The F*ing Wiki" is not always the appropriate answer.
And even in cases where it is, insulting people like it has become standard here by a few "senior" members is extremely rude, and for me is not an acceptable way of communication.
Thanks for listening,
Daniel
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Tadzio,
the wiki might be outdated with some information but not the basic! which is the answers to 90% of the questions asked! Im with Jaz in that they are here for one thing and thats to leech and leave, if there is a problem then ***** and whinge... i thought this was 'xda-developers' not 'xda-noobs', i have some patience for noobs for resonable questions but when they download a ROM and cannot be bothered to read the 'How To' and where to post sections enough is enough... its hard enough for us Cookers to keep track of real bugs and issues enough without sifting through useless threads about crap.
i came here for one thing to broaden my knowledge of PDA's and Windows Mobile and i have learnt so much from this site, because i read and read before posting.
I am not ashamed of the way i speak to ppl who dont take the time to read the pages that we write to help benefit the noobs in the first place.
my ****n two cents!
tadzio said:
Just to clarify: my comment wasn't directed towards shogunmark. In the first post of this thread, he also asks senior members to stop flaming noobs.
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This was so funny ...
Oops, sorry but I really couldn't help it.
Mr Tadzio just means well. You can see he does not want to offend anyone as you can see from his immediate note.
I'm also a newbie, as you can see from the amount of my posts, but I really really really try to search and read everything you guys post. It is a difficult task, though, to encourage everyone to read, read and read and then ask questions later but I guess nothing comes easy.
I also like the 'heuristic programming' to block noobs from posting. Hilarious. Like, you can create key phrases like 'how do you hard-reset' or 'where are the office applications' and just block them from posting. haha
jasjamming said:
Welcome to the Land Down Under ****wits!
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That must be from the live version of the Men At Work song...
junior my self
I agree with the senior members, Mods, as a junior I flashed my universal countless of times without asking too much questions on the board it just took time reading through the wiki and sometimes reading through the posts relating to topics you want your question to be answered.
Having bought my new MDA Vario II it took me one week reading through the wiki, forums almost everything topic relating to Upgrading my device and the risks involved, since my first flash i havent encounter any bad flash of sort.
I read through the posts every hour and sometimes, I get irritated of the questions been asked repeatedly, so in terms of the senior members, Rom Cookers devoting thier own time giving us thier great work to share and let our devices look and feel as if it couldnt be better the least we do is just read, think and just before posting just think ( Is this question been mentioned before?)
I think the Mods,senior members should introduce some sort of membership before registering to new or to make it fair even existing members as to lessen new members who just want to come and go when they find what they want and also this would incorporate fundings towards XDA DEVELOPERS,
jUST MY 5CENTS
where can I download photon....
Eh?
.... seriously though... I used to have problems with the search function - hadnt taken the time to use the "show posts" option rather than the "show threads". Once I'd made the switch.. easy street...
mxlaser said:
Have you never seen the link for "SEARCH THIS THREAD"? its not hard.
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yes, we'll i spent about a year on the site thinking i couldn't use the search function at all because of the issue discussed above, only to recently discover the "search posts" option. you've just blown my mind with that "search thread." maybe now i'll be able to enable the internal gps on the hermes or successfully cook a simple damn ext_rom. ok, so i really missed the boat on the search functionality, but this illuminates the apparently widespread issue of search confusion, no? there is no treatment on queries in the wiki of any kind, aimed either at beginners or SQL engineers. i'm really rather technologically adept (notwithstanding present evidence to the contrary) and for whatever reason, i, too, managed to miss those functions. now, granted, in two years this is the first discussion i've been involved in, so obviously i worked silently through that very newbish failure to read the whole page without disturbing any other community members, but we can't expect all people who find themselves in the possession of a PPC to be able to immediately comprehend all that's needed in order for them to even begin to practically consider messing with the device.
unwired's point here is "simple," (as advertised) but really kind of elegant. i'd maybe extend it thus: perhaps someone (i clearly am not qualified, having missed that button which would have saved me many fruitless google domain searches) should draft a wiki treatment of the query interface. perhaps another could take up general forum ettiquette. mxlaser, maybe you could take up an introduction to SPL. make each section efficient and accurate, and call it the "new member welcome package." update the FAQ. do these things, and then you have a right to "flame" users who abrogate those then explicitly-posted regulations.
ultimately, the only way to ensure that threads stay on topic and avoid duplication is to heavily moderate. intrusive measures like probationary no-posting periods for new users run counter to the underlying concept of this type of web forum. i don't know how any system of regulations would or could work, but moderators should at least be deleting off-topic posts, and removing those other posts, too. you know the ones, where established users get all angry at a newbie for something or other and wax profane about how that newbie might better spend his time? yeah, well, those just waste more of everyone else's. if someone wants to give me privileges, i'd take on the challenge of cleaning up a little corner of the xda universe.
just as long as we're all on about the moderators, i think we should remember something my grandpa used to say: "everything in moderation, including moderation..."
oh also quickly:
mxlaser said:
Clearly anyone not capable of the simplest of forum ettiqette doesnt belong here and will never really contribute anything.
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in which canon of bulletin-board etiquette did you read that it was acceptable to intentionally misquote the person to whom you are responding? ["blah blah blah"] that seems to me to be a pretty simple, basic, fundamental requirement of discussion forums in general, i.e.: respect the written record... it looks as if you're behind in the count; you'd better protect the plate...
Can the board software be modded to set search posts as default?
What is going on with the moderation in the Dream forums? I have been coming here for quite a few years now, though more reading than posting I grant. I have never seen such lock happy moderation before though.
In the past on the other subforums locking a thread was fairly rare and moderation more in tune with keeping it civil than anything. Moderators kept the peace but left topics and threads to being mostly self-governing. Occasionally a thread would get moved to off topic or the rebellious user warned but nothing like this. About a dozen threads in the last week, six in the last two days alone.
It seems any thread that the moderators feel is a repeat or not needed is locked. There is no warning or explanation by the moderators, just a lock. Instead of educating the user, search first with a link to what the user should have looked for as an example, the discussion is left in limbo. This is making the forum more of a moderated police state than a area for open conversation on topics. This detracts from the ability to have open discussions and the enjoyment of trying to help others.
So I am asking the moderators to please show restraint and give the posters more leeway. There is no need to lock every thread that is a repeat or could have been solved by a search. The threads will go off the front page in due time, locking them simply is not constructive more often than not. If you absolutely must lock it then at least put a post at the end with a reason.
I am not active in the Dream forum, but I will add my thoughts here.
Certain sections of XDA's forums are subject to stricter moderation then others due to the sheer volume of active members in them. For example, the Raphael has seen a US release on all three nationwide carriers, whereas the prior models only saw release on one carrier. This led to more people buying the Raphael, and a large influx of members in the related forums. Due to that influx, we moderators needed to step up our monitoring of those forums in order to keeping them as clean and concise as possible.
This same example applies to the Dream due to it being the first Android phone released.
While I agree with you that a moderator should always leave a quick note as the final post in a closed thread, I also support closing down redundant threads in order to help keep all relevant information in an existing thread; not spread across 5 or 6 different ones.
So I am asking the moderators to please show restraint and give the posters more leeway. There is no need to lock every thread that is a repeat or could have been solved by a search. The threads will go off the front page in due time, locking them simply is not constructive more often than not. If you absolutely must lock it then at least put a post at the end with a reason.
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NotATreoFan said:
While I agree with you that a moderator should always leave a quick note as the final post in a closed thread, I also support closing down redundant threads in order to help keep all relevant information in an existing thread; not spread across 5 or 6 different ones.
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Just thought I would add my two cents in here ( like anyone cares ) because I too have been irritated once or twice by over zealous moderation. Once by a moderator from the Dream forum who came over to the Kaiser forum to delete a whole conversation, because he " thought " we were getting too heated in our debate over M$ supposed actions . There was no flamebaiting, He just thought.
And several times by threads ( not mine ) that were closed without warning or stated reason. I know this is a huge site with a lot of heavy traffic and the Mods are " overworked and under paid " . I also realize that Mods are from around the world, and Moderation style is subject to differing personalities, social and interpersonal customs from different countries. But common courtesy is universal. While many people don't deserve it, please take the time to include a note on why, the thread requires moderation. If you don't have the time , then maybe you should pass the job on to someone who can take the time.
Also in my 1 1/2 years on this site, ( six mo lurking and 1 yr member ) I have PM'd three mods, asking them to please explain their actions in moderating a thread I was posting in, and in all three cases, received nothing, not even an acknowledgement.
This is not a criticism, just my two cents, should someone read this. I have my favorite mods, (natf is one ) Dave and Josh are excellent in the Kaiser forums, mostly because they adhere to the basic tenet, " Moderation in Moderation. "
mikechannon said:
I realise you are being modest there, and the truth is we do care what members think and voicing concern in a calm fashion is appreciated and this kind of feedback is what moderates the Moderators. This is what makes us a community and avoids an "us and them" situation developing.
I don't have anything of value to add to NotATreoFan's comments which match my own feelings on the matter and IMHO reflect the kind of balance we need between being tolerant, courteous and yet maintaining a degree of organisation.
Mike
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Thanks for taking that in the context that it was meant, I know that Admin and Mods do care what membership thinks.
denco7 said:
Thanks for taking that in the context that it was meant, I know that Admin and Mods do care what membership thinks.
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AND they are simply men and women They could make mistakes, they act differently in the same situation. Suggestions and opinions are always welcome!
i reckon there should be a new button next to the report post button that serves as an appeal button if someone thinks that a tread has been closed for no reason the the button should allow for appeal. a box is filled n explaining the thread and why there was no reason to delete it this is then pmd to the closer of the thread then negotaiations will start
Please do not take my original post too harshly. I do appreciate the mods here on XDA-developers and think that they do a great job. But at the same time when the mods get a little over zealous this seemed the best way to bring up my protest. (I could not PM the moderator in question because I do not know who was closing the threads.)
So thanks again for making this a great place to come back to over the years and keep up the good work.
JanetPanic said:
What is going on with the moderation in the Dream forums? I have been coming here for quite a few years now, though more reading than posting I grant. I have never seen such lock happy moderation before though.
In the past on the other subforums locking a thread was fairly rare and moderation more in tune with keeping it civil than anything. Moderators kept the peace but left topics and threads to being mostly self-governing. Occasionally a thread would get moved to off topic or the rebellious user warned but nothing like this. About a dozen threads in the last week, six in the last two days alone.
It seems any thread that the moderators feel is a repeat or not needed is locked. There is no warning or explanation by the moderators, just a lock. Instead of educating the user, search first with a link to what the user should have looked for as an example, the discussion is left in limbo. This is making the forum more of a moderated police state than a area for open conversation on topics. This detracts from the ability to have open discussions and the enjoyment of trying to help others.
So I am asking the moderators to please show restraint and give the posters more leeway. There is no need to lock every thread that is a repeat or could have been solved by a search. The threads will go off the front page in due time, locking them simply is not constructive more often than not. If you absolutely must lock it then at least put a post at the end with a reason.
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If you ask me there aren't enough locked threads in the dream section. There are over 80 different threads for the new haykuro build there, 80!!! Probably more because i stopped counting at page 20. I also might add that the main haykuro thread has over 6000 posts and counting. The dream section is out of control and needs serious moderator intervention. One moderator simply cannot do all this himself. I know the dream mod, or at least the only active mod there that i can see and he is excellent at not only helping people but moderating in general. Let a thread be self governed? That's a very scary though!!! I am a moderator at another site and i can say it is not a moderators job to be a friend, be respectful or give you an explaination as to why he or she did what they did. Yes i do give an explaination and most mods on here do as well but they are here to maintain the rules of the forum and the upkeep of the forum in general. If threads were locked its more than likely because you or others got off topic, double posted or started a new thread when another about the exact same thing already existed. Case in point, there is a section for members to post questions to mods about anything already and you opened a new thread on the subject.
Ha I couldn't agree MORE with Ryanmo. There should be tighter and more rigid controls there. In fact I don't think it's (currently) possible for there to be moderation there at the moment...too many new bodies added to the fray. And we all know most of them are not reading the Sticky posted at top saying "Must read before you post". I don't have any problem with xda mods enacting 1-3 day temp bans on some of the frequent offenders.
knight4linux said:
Ha I couldn't agree MORE with Ryanmo. There should be tighter and more rigid controls there. In fact I don't think it's (currently) possible for there to be moderation there at the moment...too many new bodies added to the fray. And we all know most of them are not reading the Sticky posted at top saying "Must read before you post". I don't have any problem with xda mods enacting 1-3 day temp bans on some of the frequent offenders.
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Haha yeah the sticky at the top about the rules says a little over 23,000 views. The hacking thread has been viewed over 300,000 times, go figure. I probably report 15 posts a day to try and help but your right its outta control.
Hello Friends,
Well i have seen these site and i am quite surprise here that though more reading than posting I grant. I have never seen such lock happy moderation before though.As i am not a active member but ya i will add my though if any and will discuss So I am asking the moderators to please show restraint and give the posters more leeway. There is no need to lock every thread that is a repeat or could have been solved by a search. The threads will go off the front page in due time, locking them simply is not constructive more often than not. If you absolutely must lock it then at least put a post at the end with a reason. Thanx
can someone please unlock this thread
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=429808&page=22
It is not that rules and regulations are not in place in this site. They are posted all over the place. In fact, if you look at my sig, I have them there as a hyperlink (many other members do the same). Why do threads and posts get locked, moved, or otherwise deleted left and right? It is because lots of users (particularly new ones but seasoned users also) do not read these rules. They do not know that they should search before posting or opening new threads; they do not know that there are sections to ask questions that are not relevant to the section they posted at; they do not know that profanity shouldn't be used around here due to a large young crowd; they do not know that flaming (particularly for no apparent reason) is strictly prohibited....
Moderators have little time to be messing around with people who simply do not understand that there are rules that must be followed (or read for that matter). Hence, they close the threads with no previous notice and at times, leave no excuse behind. They don't do it out of the content of their hearts, and they are definitely not watching over every single thread at all times. If you see a thread being closed, it is normally due to someone complaining about it, and more often than not, mods will analyze the trend of the thread and if necessary either warn users to stop, or just flat out close it (normally they warn unless the thread itself is breaking the rules... think of posting warez for instance).
I have yet to see abuse of power by a mod in this forum. And I am pretty sure that if there happens to be a mod that does abuse his/her God-given powers.... let's just say that they will be judged by a higher power
My 2 cents!
Although some moderators try and go out of their way to leave a message as to why they lock a thread, that is not their job. Our job is to make sure people are following the rules.
Here is a little scenario, i log on at night and jump over to the D&H section.... there i find 10 new threads asking questions.
A) I can delete the threads
B) I can close the threads by simply going through and checking every thread and then closing.
C) i can individually open each thread and leave a message for each person
D) i can wait for another moderator to do it
E) move the thread for them
Well i cant delete them or people will think their thread never got posted and just post it AGAIN. If you move peoples threads for them they think they can post anywhere and it will just be moved where it needs to go. I dont have time to open every thread and leave a message for every person everytime, and if i leave it for another moderator, it might not get done.
Really i am only left with checking all of the threads and closing them. if you have a question you can READ the rules, as it is your resonsibilty as a member, and find the answer. (Or of course you can pm a mod)
You guys have to remember that there are over 1,537,526 members on this site and around 66 mods and admin. We do our best to help you guys but we dont always have the time to write a personal letter for everyone of your and put it in you lunch box.
I agree (not that it matters). Mods have absolutely NO responsibility to post why they closed a thread...Why? Because they already are posted...in the rules up top. Its you, the new users that have the resposibility. That responsibility to read the rules before you post (RTFM). It even says at the bottom (of the rules) what will happen if they are not followed.
And by allowing multiple threads of the SAME simple questions (Especially in a phones development section) this completely ruins development and progress, not to mention this is a free and public forum. That means its hosted on servers, and these duplicate threads/posts start to add up.
Trust me. Frequent the forums for more than a few months and it'll start to wear on you too, almost as much as it does to the mods.
UPDATE:
As of late, there seems to be a lot of issues with the dream section, many many topics on bricked phones, new OS releases, old releases, random topics, and other posts. The title of the forum is Dream android 'development', and its actually hard now to find 'development' scattered in many of the different types of topics in there.
SUGGESTION/RECOMMENDATION:
Make a sub-forum of the development forum (or of the whole dream forum like the current 5 main sub-forums), named something like troubleshooting, or repair, or something like that. That way, anyone with a broken phone can post in there maybe. It might be a bad suggestion simply because the 'helpers' may not check there...but I cant think of a better way to keep the 5 different topics a day saying "I have a different brick problem" organized so actual development [important] topics can stay up top, where they should be.
Anyone with a better idea, express it so something can be done, its quite a mess right now.
[Oh and maybe a description under the android dev. forum something in capital letters saying: be careful, and read everything before taking action!!!, because I think some people end up with bricks because of anticipation and possibly dont read. Just as a [duh] advisory, ya know?]
/rant
Thanks [btw not bashing the mods, its just a bit hectic it seems right now, many things going on there]
theslam08 said:
UPDATE:
As of late, there seems to be a lot of issues with the dream section, many many topics on bricked phones, new OS releases, old releases, random topics, and other posts. The title of the forum is Dream android 'development', and its actually hard now to find 'development' scattered in many of the different types of topics in there.
SUGGESTION/RECOMMENDATION:
Make a sub-forum of the development forum (or of the whole dream forum like the current 5 main sub-forums), named something like troubleshooting, or repair, or something like that. That way, anyone with a broken phone can post in there maybe. It might be a bad suggestion simply because the 'helpers' may not check there...but I cant think of a better way to keep the 5 different topics a day saying "I have a different brick problem" organized so actual development [important] topics can stay up top, where they should be.
Anyone with a better idea, express it so something can be done, its quite a mess right now.
[Oh and maybe a description under the android dev. forum something in capital letters saying: be careful, and read everything before taking action!!!, because I think some people end up with bricks because of anticipation and possibly dont read. Just as a [duh] advisory, ya know?]
/rant
Thanks [btw not bashing the mods, its just a bit hectic it seems right now, many things going on there]
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That has been added as a suggestion and I will push for it again in the mod section.
BTW I am a Dream mod and I am usually the one that closes threads or deletes them. I don't always leave a message because it is more time consuming. I can have an unclean section with everyone getting a response and therefore getting their locked post bumped. Or I can have a cleaner (it will never be clean) section with angry users who didn't search in the first place.
I chose the later by the way.
neoobs said:
That has been added as a suggestion and I will push for it again in the mod section.
BTW I am a Dream mod and I am usually the one that closes threads or deletes them. I don't always leave a message because it is more time consuming. I can have an unclean section with everyone getting a response and therefore getting their locked post bumped. Or I can have a cleaner (it will never be clean) section with angry users who didn't search in the first place.
I chose the later by the way.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Mhm, and you do what you can, I notice somethings being done by you, which is good that something is being done. I used to mod/administrate big places so I know what its like, its a pain when people cant search, or arent sure of where to post so they post anywhere (sometimes in the effort of 'just getting an answer').
This causes the clutter, especially when there are multiple 'different but very similar' type topics being created, and its tricky to know which to close and which not to close. Thats why I think maybe a separate forum 'might' be the best solution, because as of right now, bricks are happening pretty quickly and thats not good (no one to blame, just the anticipation again).
I appreciate the backing, hope 'something' can be done, its just really crowded right now (making the 'new' browsers get lost [causing the multiple similar topic issue], and your job harder).
One problem is the sticky's need to be updated by the people who started them. Many are older and with 5 different roms available to flash now they simply don't meet the demand for all these different roms. The rom developers need to do a better job of explaining how to flash their roms. The newest one tried to get a little too cute and force a new apps2sd method on users and the result was a lot of looped (not bricked) g1's. The sub forum could consist of how to's and guide's. I'm not sure a sub forum is the best way to go though, There are already 5 and most phones on here don't even have 4. Xda simply need more help with this section, neoobs has been cleaning house and i thank you but you can't do it all lol. I am a moderator on another site, not here but will do what i can to report posts as much as possible to help the mods.
Ryanmo5 said:
One problem is the sticky's need to be updated by the people who started them. Many are older and with 5 different roms available to flash now they simply don't meet the demand for all these different roms. The rom developers need to do a better job of explaining how to flash their roms. The newest one tried to get a little too cute and force a new apps2sd method on users and the result was a lot of looped (not bricked) g1's. The sub forum could consist of how to's and guide's. I'm not sure a sub forum is the best way to go though, There are already 5 and most phones on here don't even have 4. Xda simply need more help with this section, neoobs has been cleaning house and i thank you but you can't do it all lol. I am a moderator on another site, not here but will do what i can to report posts as much as possible to help the mods.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Agreed 100%, it seems there are alot of stickies there, maybe redundant on some, but are necessary on others. There should be a way to make it distinguishable between information/guides, developments, and problems. They do need to be updated as well.
I agree, a forum might not be the best way because there might be 'lost' posts which would not work either (like the new magic thread that showed up, though I dont dissagree with that simply because the OP is correct, android is android, and the magic needs some help, maybe because we stole quite a bit from it too? lol. but still posting to 'get help' anywhere).
Is there a modification for vb that makes stickies different color than the regular topics? I never administrated vb only ipb and smf so I dont know. But that would be a big help there, then the new comers can instantly see which are informal.
Im trying to report, to help you so you dont need to spend as much time 'looking' as doing the task. Its not 'too' bad right now, when I first posted though omg it was disaster. Once the new rom comes out though....thennn its gonna be biig trouble again.
Update: I was looking at something...the first forum, named Dream. That I was actually looking at for the first time, it seems pretty useless really. A lot of the topics in there could definitely go into the development thread...OR that forum could get changed to something else and cleaned up. There arent many 'general' topics for the phone I dont think, whats general for the phone? What is the g1? Maybe but useless indeed. So maybe instead of MAKING a new forum, just change that one and clean it up. Make it a troubleshooting forum, or a tutorial section, or just updates, or something I dont know. But maybe just better use of it I think.
So I have been a member on here for a while and have observed the changing trends in devices and users. But something has gotten much worse in last year and I think we need to address it in proper XDA fashion. I am not the type to complain without trying develop a solution and I am looking for some feedback from mods and users of all types, shapes and sizes here.
This forum has a real problem with people making useless posts in the wrong sections, about the wrong topics and while I think the mods do a great job they clearly can't keep up. I am no saint and will admit my own guilt on one or two occasions but some users just post meaningless post after meaningless post and really great threads are being destroyed as a result. This problem has clearly gotten out of hand and it isn't limited to just the devices I follow. A review of the forum shows this behavior in just about every device category. Just my observation...
My proposed solution to this problem I perceive is a "No thanks" button that will function in exactly the opposite way the "Thank you" button works with a few caveats I see as a huge value add.
1. If a certain post is given X amount of no thanks clicks it is automatically sent to a mod for review or perhaps even automatically deleted.
2. 1 Thanks click cancels out X no thanks clicks. This would keep trolls from using it in destructive ways if you are just someone that has a few enemies. Hopefully...
3. One thanks click cancels out X no thanks clicks.
4. After a user receives X amount of no thanks clicks they are redirected to the forums rules page for a period of 24 hours. No matter what link they click or how they access the site they will just be redirected to a page with the forum rules so they can study them.
I could go on listing things but I want to see what you guys think about something like this. It would allow all of us to some degree the ability to moderate our favorite threads and keep the BS posts to a minimum. User that continue to post things off topic or in the wrong threads will find themselves spending a lot of time studying the forum rules. Even if we don't add the enhanced features the no thanks button is long overdue. These people can wear their lack of respect for forum rules like a badge of shame the same way devs wear the thanks button like a badge of honor. It will give them more incentive to think about the things they post and will help ensure that good threads are not destroyed by the same question asked 100 times.
Moved to About xda-developers.com section
i agree it would bring alot of excitement to the forum , and the automatic mod contact would be a great idea for members who are a constant problem , also total negative points could show up in the profile and maybe have a forum top list for easy overview of troublemakers
also it has to be understood that it would bring a massive amount of work as ive never seen 2 types of thanks (or positive-negative)buttons in a vBulletin system
jnutz said:
This forum has a real problem with people making useless posts in the wrong sections
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Moved to About xda-developers.com section
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry, that just made me chuckle..
This has two ways it could go.
one way:
A bury down system, if there is a post that is irrelevant or off topic and not needed in that thread users could bury it (IE: Hide for themselves) and enough votes hides it for all members of that thread.
other way:
Exactly like thanks button but instead has no thanks. Thing is this serves really no purpose as if Post A was useful and then Post B wasn't very helpful and one got "thanked", the other "no thanked" then it would balance out to zero. In the end this means nothing as XDA is about sharing, not who has the best thanks ratio.
I dont think this is the best route for XDA as we move on and mature as there are much more important issues to focus on at the moment
Bury down system seems like a good idea, since inevitably people may reply to the poster before he recives enough -1 to bury the post and if that post is then deleted it will just make the forum read flow badly
Let me suggest that not everyone should be entitled to the -1 button to bury a post, only lets say 60-70% of the members either deicded apon by join date/thanks recived andor post count.
Another problem I've seen in regards to the new 10 post rule is that people are just trolling on other forums typing random useless things in just to increase their post count to 10.
Persistant offenders that have had their posts buried should get some sort of mail to warn them if things dont improve their account will be looked at by a moderator.
arielc said:
Bury down system seems like a good idea, since inevitably people may reply to the poster before he recives enough -1 to bury the post and if that post is then deleted it will just make the forum read flow badly
Let me suggest that not everyone should be entitled to the -1 button to bury a post, only lets say 60-70% of the members either deicded apon by join date/thanks recived andor post count.
Another problem I've seen in regards to the new 10 post rule is that people are just trolling on other forums typing random useless things in just to increase their post count to 10.
Persistant offenders that have had their posts buried should get some sort of mail to warn them if things dont improve their account will be looked at by a moderator.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Report the posts of anyone who is spamming other areas, as I'll simply ban them for spamming the board. The limit is there for good reason, and people trying to get round it will be dealt with severely.
Cheers
P
jnutz said:
So I have been a member on here for a while and have observed the changing trends in devices and users. But something has gotten much worse in last year and I think we need to address it in proper XDA fashion. I am not the type to complain without trying develop a solution and I am looking for some feedback from mods and users of all types, shapes and sizes here.
This forum has a real problem with people making useless posts in the wrong sections, about the wrong topics and while I think the mods do a great job they clearly can't keep up. I am no saint and will admit my own guilt on one or two occasions but some users just post meaningless post after meaningless post and really great threads are being destroyed as a result. This problem has clearly gotten out of hand and it isn't limited to just the devices I follow. A review of the forum shows this behavior in just about every device category. Just my observation...
My proposed solution to this problem I perceive is a "No thanks" button that will function in exactly the opposite way the "Thank you" button works with a few caveats I see as a huge value add.
1. If a certain post is given X amount of no thanks clicks it is automatically sent to a mod for review or perhaps even automatically deleted.
2. 1 Thanks click cancels out X no thanks clicks. This would keep trolls from using it in destructive ways if you are just someone that has a few enemies. Hopefully...
3. One thanks click cancels out X no thanks clicks.
4. After a user receives X amount of no thanks clicks they are redirected to the forums rules page for a period of 24 hours. No matter what link they click or how they access the site they will just be redirected to a page with the forum rules so they can study them.
I could go on listing things but I want to see what you guys think about something like this. It would allow all of us to some degree the ability to moderate our favorite threads and keep the BS posts to a minimum. User that continue to post things off topic or in the wrong threads will find themselves spending a lot of time studying the forum rules. Even if we don't add the enhanced features the no thanks button is long overdue. These people can wear their lack of respect for forum rules like a badge of shame the same way devs wear the thanks button like a badge of honor. It will give them more incentive to think about the things they post and will help ensure that good threads are not destroyed by the same question asked 100 times.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I love this idea. I came in to this section, getting ready to request a 'No Thanks' button myself, when I found your post. Some of the completely frustrating examples are:
1) Posting the message 'Thanks' instead of just clicking the thanks button
2) Asking what the battery life on a new ROM is, 2 minutes after the ROM has been posted
3) Asking questions that have been asked 20 times in the current thread
This problem gets exacerbated by other members posting to tell them that they're post is not useful, in the wrong place, or redundant.
If we had a way to flag these posts, maybe by adding more options to the 'report' functionality, without further polluting the thread, it would go a long way towards keeping threads clean.
Thx,
Jason
djgromit said:
I love this idea. I came in to this section, getting ready to request a 'No Thanks' button myself, when I found your post. Some of the completely frustrating examples are:
1) Posting the message 'Thanks' instead of just clicking the thanks button
2) Asking what the battery life on a new ROM is, 2 minutes after the ROM has been posted
3) Asking questions that have been asked 20 times in the current thread
This problem gets exacerbated by other members posting to tell them that they're post is not useful, in the wrong place, or redundant.
If we had a way to flag these posts, maybe by adding more options to the 'report' functionality, without further polluting the thread, it would go a long way towards keeping threads clean.
Thx,
Jason
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I understand, seeing battery related and other FAQ can be frustrating, but they are not exactly spam, and XDA is growing and new users are discovering the world of custom ROMs and flashing because of which certain excitement and stupidity at the same time.
It's in the right spirit to welcome and be good to new members, but indeed if you notice a particular member getting out of hand or a little to n00bish please do report and we the MODs will do the needful.
We all need to strive for a balance between the developers and old school XDA members part and the new members, it can be tough; but i'm sure it can be done
JM2C's.
Hola, I would have liked to quote all of you, since you all have pro´s but there are also plenty of con´s and so I´ll only quote this last ones as reference...
djgromit said:
I love this idea. I came in to this section, getting ready to request a 'No Thanks' button myself, when I found your post. Some of the completely frustrating examples are:
1) Posting the message 'Thanks' instead of just clicking the thanks button
2) Asking what the battery life on a new ROM is, 2 minutes after the ROM has been posted
3) Asking questions that have been asked 20 times in the current thread
This problem gets exacerbated by other members posting to tell them that they're post is not useful, in the wrong place, or redundant.
If we had a way to flag these posts, maybe by adding more options to the 'report' functionality, without further polluting the thread, it would go a long way towards keeping threads clean.
Thx,
Jason
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think and welcome the idea of "flagging" certain posts after it is totally clear (I know, sometimes it seems obvious) that the post is "trash" or BS (by the way, my initials). But there are also plenty of drawbacks to the way this can be done, so no hard/personal feelings get "hurt" und thus agrrevate the situation and lead to more discontent and "wrong" behaviour. Maybe anonymously after a poll? But then again, this would also mean more work for the admins or further involucration and responsibility for the OPs (which is my opinion, that they should be held more responsible for their threads and given more authoroty with that rensponsability - but that´s a different thing and not the point here).
As for your "frustrating" examples:
1.) When the "thanks" button got introduced (again), like in so many other boards, for some it´s enough just to push that button to show their appreciation, but others "need" to write a "thank you" post (which used to be the way before) - call it education, need to get the post count up, what ever... I personally think, there is nothing wrong with either method, hitting the button, or writing a thanks post. Doesn´t harm anybody, and btw, to bad the limit is 5 per day, cause a lot of times I find very usefull posts for me (mostly more than 5 per day) and I can´t thank the users for it, unless writting a thanks post. Both of these methods are positive and encouraging...
Now to the "no thanks".... It´s neither encouraging, nor positive, nor really constructive and could lead to further discussions within a thread instead of the intended result.
2.) Answered by madnish below
3.) It´s a pitty, but it´s human lazyness, sometimes not to read the posts from others (not the questions and not the answers to those questions), or simply call it egoism, wanting a personal solution, lack of time... or simply not having payed attention. I´ve answered quite some questions asked over and over again, just like a lot of other members. You can either try to help people, and remind them to use the search and/or read the thread thoroughly before posting a question...., or you can tell them their post is BS, not usefull, has been answered a million times, etc, or you can simply ignore them. All of these lead to the same result. After a while, these users tend to read, search and think before posting, so it has a positive and beneficial effect on the mid/long term...
So YES, "flagging" would be OK, depending on how it´s put into practice.
madnish30 said:
I understand, seeing battery related and other FAQ can be frustrating, but they are not exactly spam, and XDA is growing and new users are discovering the world of custom ROMs and flashing because of which certain excitement and stupidity at the same time.
It's in the right spirit to welcome and be good to new members, but indeed if you notice a particular member getting out of hand or a little to n00bish please do report and we the MODs will do the needful.
We all need to strive for a balance between the developers and old school XDA members part and the new members, it can be tough; but i'm sure it can be done
JM2C's.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I´m kinda representing the noob´s side. I´m only a simple and yes, stupid user. No dev, no technical background, but lot´s of questions... Maybe xda used to be different and only for developers, as the name states, but times have changed and also the "kind" of members. The profile is no longer only dev´s and tec´s, but also a lot of users with different expertice (less), skills (other), background, knowledge, age, education, culture, language, etc.
All users should me more responsible, but hey, we are all human and act according to different standards, believes, etc. The only way to solve this problem is by all enforcing and encouraging the rules, "helping" out the OPs, Moderatrors & Admins to keep the threads as integer, clean and "on topic" as possible. I know there are times when some posts are interpreted (and actually are) off topic, but sometimes this is also beneficial for the users and thus for the thread itself.
Basically all this is just to say, it´s not about all that can or needs to be done by rules, limitations, mods and admins - it´s about what WE can ACTIVELY do to improve the situation and avoid it becoming worse...
Btw, I would have pushed the "no thanks" button for this request. Not because I don´t think that it´s a good thing, simply because I don´t agree with it. Very good innitiative, but in my honest and humble opinion, bad judgement, so YES, thank you, but no thanks
Hello fellow XDA-Users,
I have been a member of this forum for quite some time now, and currently spend my time in the Optimus 2X section.
People from there might recognize me from my guide on how to build cyanogenmod7 from source and some bits and pieces
from the O2X section.
Some of you might know, that LG delayed the update for this phone quite a bit, which brings me to the purpose of this
thread: The amount of spam and Off-Topic in the general section as well as the development section has blown up
insanely over the last 2-3 months, and this has caused a lot of tension between users and mods, among users and of course
users and devs. While, in case of the general section, this might be bearable, it is not for the dev section, since the real
devs can't work properly because all the useful information gets buried under the same questions and off-topic again and again.
Just recently, a mod was required to close a thread containing bleeding edge information and made it clear that he had no
intention of reopening it again.
I have spent a lot of time thinking about this, and I want to dump my thoughts for a solution in this thread. While
I don't know to which degree these can be implemented or if they might contradict the philosphy or user-rights of XDA,
I still want to post them. These ideas apply first and foremost to the dev section. I see the dev section as a read-only
section for anyone that doesn't have anything to contribute towards the development, no matter how long he has been
here or how many posts he already made. Therefore I propose the following mechanics to keep the dev sections clear of Spam.
Allow only recognized developers, contributors and the other verified ranks in the forums to start threads in the dev section.
This prevents off topic threads from being created in the first place. If someone new really wants to start a new thread because
he really has something useful to share, I imagine some sort of verification process where users can submit their threads and
moderators, or maybe even the parties allowed to post already, to review and approve the topics. This will create additional workload
on the moderators, but I believe it won't be that much more compared to the endless reports they are receiving right now. Also, allowing
a larger base of users (recognized contributors/developers) to approve the topics will reduce the workload even further.
To prevent the spamming of existing threads, apply the same strategy as mentioned above with the following changes:
For a specific threads, the thread starter (and possibly a list of users defined by the thread starter) can either approve single
posts or users in general to being able to post in the thread. The user, after being approved, will be able to post freely in the
thread, or maybe even in all threads by the approving thread starter.
I know these are very strict rules, but since they are only applied to the dev sections, I think they are worth considering, since it
will reduce all posts made in this section to those really dealing with dev stuff. Like I already mentioned, it may increase the workload
on whatever mods/users will have to approve. This gave life to my idea of expanding this userbase to the recognized developers/contributors
as well.
I see that my concept is anything but precisely laid out, but I think it represents a good base to create a system, that will make the
dev sections of this forum what they used to be: A place where developers can develop without having to read through pages of spam and
off topic and thus be more productive and less pissed off. The approval also puts another step into the process of thread/post creation
that might make users reconsider if they really want to post or perform a simple search first.
Thanks for your time!
Also, in order for this thread to be recognized, please give it a good rating. Thank you.
aMpeX
edit: Just to make myself clear again, this approach is far from perfect, but I believe with some input and discussion, we can make it so.
Please feel free to post your opinions, corrections or extensions to this idea.
I will try to collect some ideas from the discussion to summarize it here:
Inspired by anasdcool71's post:
Give OPs the opportunity to decide whether they want to moderate their thread, or accept any comment that is made during thread creation
by ticking a checkbox for example.
Hear, hear. I have said almost exactly the same thing myself before now and couldn't agree more with your thoughts. It's not an ideal solution, but maybe XDA need to take an uber-strict approach to stop this destruction by its own users.
this topic needs ofc a lot of discussion, expecially since i know neither about the capabilities of the code nor how the owners of XDA want to approach it.
I feel by starting this discussion we can iron out a system that works.
I feel that there is simply no other solution than being a little strict on the dev sections. Users still have enough room to post in the other sections, but in the dev sections, where all the magic happens, this is not helping at all, so I think it makes sense restricting these sections in that manner.
The 2 features are quite good, but still there are certain restrictions.
For the 1st point :-
You said that RCs, RDs and other verified ranks should be allowed to create a thread. Well, most RCs have been given the rank because of their polite and courteous nature throughout the site, and some of their work on guides, ROMs and kernels. RDs are kinda the same, just that their work is an expert one. So basically Senior Members or Members create threads for their ROMs and kernels in the dev section, and then if their work is good enough, they are appointed as RCs and RDs as per the requirement. So this feature cannot extend to only RCs and RDs as it may block the opportunities of other members to become one. Even if a Senior Member is allowed in this feature to create a thread, many good rom devs, who might be new to XDA, may feel the frustration to complete not 10, but 100 posts!
For the 2nd point :-
The OP of the thread might not know the user himself so he might not choose users correctly. Some users holding only the Junior Member or Member title might know a lot of info about that particular rom/kernel. Furthermore, this feature will really prove tiresome for the OP as there will be a lot of users waiting for his/her approval. And as far as the case for spam goes, the OP may inform the particular mod to remove the posts.
anasdcool71 said:
The 2 features are quite good, but still there are certain restrictions.
For the 1st point :-
You said that RCs, RDs and other verified ranks should be allowed to create a thread. Well, most RCs have been given the rank because of their polite and courteous nature throughout the site, and some of their work on guides, ROMs and kernels. RDs are kinda the same, just that their work is an expert one. So basically Senior Members or Members create threads for their ROMs and kernels in the dev section, and then if their work is good enough, they are appointed as RCs and RDs as per the requirement. So this feature cannot extend to only RCs and RDs as it may block the opportunities of other members to become one. Even if a Senior Member is allowed in this feature to create a thread, many good rom devs, who might be new to XDA, may feel the frustration to complete not 10, but 100 posts!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I know this approach wasn't the best. My chain of thaught was simply to try to restrict the userbase that can start a thread. To enable non RDs and RCs to start threads, I included the idea of an approval by either MODs and/or RDs and RCs. After a user has been approved once, he retains the right to start threads and post in the dev section.
I guess my bigger picture is to build a welldefined group of users allowed to post in the dev section, and also easen the way for this group to include new members, since I believe creating a new verified group and manage applications is just too much work.
anasdcool71 said:
For the 2nd point :-
The OP of the thread might not know the user himself so he might not choose users correctly. Some users holding only the Junior Member or Member title might know a lot of info about that particular rom/kernel. Furthermore, this feature will really prove tiresome for the OP as there will be a lot of users waiting for his/her approval.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is also a weak point of my proposition, my idea was to provide some sort of inbox where OPs can see the posts submitted and simply approve the ones he deems fit, thereby weeding out the useless information and SPAM. It is a lot of work ofc, but I, for one, would prefer a clean and moderated dev thread over one bloated with Spam.
Maybe one could let the OP decide which model he wants his thread to follow by, by simply ticking a checkbox during thread creation.
Interesting idea.
I believe I've brought up all of the above suggestions at some point or another (not dismissing or anything, just I have looked into this for a long period of time, several years now in fact!)
I'll try to summarise the benefits and disadvantages of each key suggestion:
1) Allow only "Recognized *" and above to make new threads in dev.
I'd love nothing more than this... The trouble is users wouldn't want it! They will complain if we implement this, since not every developer on XDA is an RD... Some may not have applied, some may have applied but not had it processed yet. Others may have applied and been accepted (but we only add the users to the RD group once per month to reduce time spent on it), and some may have been rejected for not meeting the criteria.
This would end up upsetting more people than it would benefit, causing more arguing and bickering from them
2) Restrict who can post in a thread.
This is what we already aim to do with the 10 post rule. The trouble is that if we raise it, it keeps out genuine contributors. If we lower it, we get crap through. Right now, we think 10 is about the optimum, but that's not to say we're not adverse to ever changing it if needed.
The issue with giving the OP control over who can post is that some people would abuse this. For example, I don't imagine many devs who would "approve" posts critical of their ROM, or giving negative feedback on it. Part of the way XDA works is it ensures that every thread is outwith the control of its owner, so feedback isn't being hidden or removed because it isn't agreed with by the OP of the thread. That's why XDA doesn't follow the trend of a few other sites to give thread owners moderator abilities in their own threads.
We've got a team of mods who are impartial and can deal with issues without considering if a post is "beneficial" to user perception of the developer or not (like a dev would do if he was approving posts).
We do constantly try to think of new ways to solve these problems, and you've given me a few new ones to think about
Thanks
maybe then we should focus on the part of my idea that easens the entry into the group of users that are allowed to posts, not necesarily tieing it to the RC RD status, but unblocking the restrictions individually and extending the committee to administer these admissions from MODs and Admins to RD/RCs.
This would require a one-time effort by new devs, submitting their new ROM/thread to the dev sections, and having it approved by aforementioned group.
pulser_g2 said:
2) Restrict who can post in a thread.
This is what we already aim to do with the 10 post rule. The trouble is that if we raise it, it keeps out genuine contributors. If we lower it, we get crap through. Right now, we think 10 is about the optimum, but that's not to say we're not adverse to ever changing it if needed.
The issue with giving the OP control over who can post is that some people would abuse this. For example, I don't imagine many devs who would "approve" posts critical of their ROM, or giving negative feedback on it. Part of the way XDA works is it ensures that every thread is outwith the control of its owner, so feedback isn't being hidden or removed because it isn't agreed with by the OP of the thread. That's why XDA doesn't follow the trend of a few other sites to give thread owners moderator abilities in their own threads.
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I agree totally about the 10 post limit.. As i have seen many examples of the spam/useless post by newbies/noobs who post in dev section... As our samsung galaxy y duos dev section when created had not got this restriction on it (just an accidental miss i feel).. but its corrected now.. so i have seen how worse it may get if this limit is revoked.. and i have been thinking of an idea as many times i have come across new users complaining that they know about android stuff and they wanted to help dev in development and by the time they complete 10 useful post routine valuable time will be wasted etc... So i thought of this idea when i read the op's message in this thread...
How about providing OP a option to exclude a newbie member who has not made a single post yet to make posts in dev section..? So that if the dev feels/knows the user will be good for his thread and he can contribute to development?
and lets also put another rule to keep spammers away.. as there is a loop hole in my suggestion.. which is when a spammer may create 2 accounts and in one account he will obtain 10 posts and create a thread in dev section.. then spam the thread with another account by making him exception..
So we can add this option to OP of the thread only if the thread has been say one month / one week old... as this will make sure that the thread is not created for spamming and thus it also ensures actual development is going on in the thread and the dev is known.. this exclusion is only for that thread on dev sub forum.. i dont know this may be a too much workload on server..
I was suggesting this exclusion method because i have seen around 5-10 members who PM me whenever they have some issue with my kernel or any other rom related to my device for that matter... i am happy and i have no issues to help them at all.. i have also kindly suggested them to make 10 valuable/useful posts in Q & A section and post in my threads instead of M as it might help other users too who may have same issue/doubt.. but i really cant say it directly into their faces and they may not understand my point ... so i have been interacting with such users through PM and i feel they should have interacted more with forums instead of just one person.. and there might be many others who might have contacting through PM only..
So please consider this..
Also this really is a great suggestion too...
anasdcool71 said:
@pulser_g2 - The if-else statement in your sig is really great. :good:
And I've come up with a request. I've seen that many new users don't actually know/get the reason behind the 10-post limit. I'm not talking anything particularly about spammers, but there are some good users who just don't know the reason. I've just seen so many posts in so many threads saying "this 10-post limit is so frustrating","i have to PM the dev","i can't even report a bug",etc. Not one or two or 10, but many posts like this. So my request was that they'd be directed to that thread "10-post count limit in development fora", after they register. I'm sure many of them will understand. After all, it isn't that hard to get to 10 posts.
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It's an eternal problem than,us, Admins,Mods and all Recognized Tribe against which we are constantly fighting.
In the RC'stribe, we try to think and are trying to find solutions that would enable to reduce the number of useless posts.
I says reduce, cause we can't delete all of these posts.
But the real problem, it's a mentality problem due to Internet.
Actually, with Internet, people can and wanting all, now and quickly. I'm writing a question, I want my answer now!
A large majority of users don't take the time for read and seek. They want everything quickly and now.
And against this fact, we cannot fight!!
For whoever mentioned it, the ten post message does link and explain why... But nobody reads it...
pulser_g2 said:
For whoever mentioned it, the ten post message does link and explain why... But nobody reads it...
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Why ? I don't understand what you mean exactly
I have wrote a post on RC chat about this problem and send the link
philos64 said:
Why ? I don't understand what you mean exactly
I have wrote a post on RC chat about this problem and send the link
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i think he means the 10 post limit sticky thread is already linked and also its explained why its there but still no new user reads it..
philos64 said:
Why ? I don't understand what you mean exactly
I have wrote a post on RC chat about this problem and send the link
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I mean that someone mentioned perhaps making it clearer to users why they can't post etc...
I replied to say that the message already explains this and links them to a thread with information
pulser_g2 said:
I mean that someone mentioned perhaps making it clearer to users why they can't post etc...
I replied to say that the message already explains this and links them to a thread with information
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Sorry @pulser_g2
But I understand what you mean
It's better clear. Thanks
Moderators: I understand that this post is in the wrong forum, yet there doesn't seem to be a "XDA feedback" forum so I have no idea what the proper location is. I hope that a helpful moderator will move it to a proper location AND let me know where that location is.
XDA has changed quite a bit over the years. It used to be a "developer" forum. These days, not so much. In fact, and this is my problem, it almost feels anti-developer these days. If that's what XDA wants, great. If not, please take the time to read this message written by a developer.
I've been around XDA for a very long time. I've been a programmer for a much longer time. I think it's important to at least mention my professional qualifications, as this is (or was?) a DEVELOPERS forum, and I've been doing development for over 20 years. Going back only 10 years, I worked for Electronic Arts developing video games for both PC's and consoles. Unlike development here, game development has to be done right the FIRST time. There's no way to patch a game burned on to a cDROM for a console such as the original playstation, nor a way to fix a Nintendo64 cartrigde. (BTW, that was really a "rom" - not the firmware people call "roms" here on XDA.) I've also done quite a bit of development in various Windows CE platforms, including PocketPC (when I first started with XDA!) My current job has me doing (among other things) development on iOS, Android, and Windows Mobile. It's a very safe assumption that I'm extremely fluent with development on handheld devices.
Of course, as a hobby, I mostly work with Android these days. I've shared my work with people on XDA and rootzwiki, and when the changes could be applied to AOSP, I've shared them with CM and AOKP projects - as well as directly with Google via their gerrit system.
No, I don't have a "recognized developer" tag on XDA. I've never actually applied for it and currently have no interest in doing so. Part of my reason for that decision is that I feel XDA has given that tag out too freely. They've given it to people who don't actually do development, but just "kang" other people's work in order to collection donations. (I also don't accept donations, instead prefering people to send that money to real charities.) That's a different subject...
So, the purpose of this (already rambling) post is to try and give some feedback on the "current state" of XDA in general, of some of the moderators in particular, and to ask for a clear, consistent and easily understood set of guidelines.
I'm an engineer, and if the rules are fuzzy, it's impossible to clearly follow them.
So, here we go...
For any given phone model, there is a "general" subforum that is used for threads like "Post pictures of your phone" and "Where to buy this phone." Then there's a Q&A subforum that, I think, is where newbies are told to go to ask questions (and then other newbies respond with nasty replies.) There's a "development" subforum that, despite its name, is not to discuss development, but apparently only to post finished things. What those "things" are is a subject of debate, and I've heard many different things from different moderators. There might be an "original development" subforum which, I think, is used for development done from source (as opposed to modifying stock firmware?) Finally, a "themes and apps" subforum for theming existing work and misc applications.
There really is no place to discuss DEVELOPMENT for a device. Really, talking about the IO registers for a given device doesn't belong in the same place as "post pictures of your phone", and gets lost in the newbie questions in the Q&A subforum. Where does a developer discuss development for a specific platform? There's also no good place to share methods for doing development. For example, what's the best subforum for "HOWTO configure a N7100 kernel to work with stock firmware"? How about a thread that discusses how to modify the CSC files on a samsung firmware to enable features hidden by AT&T?
This all leads me back to the existing "development" subforum. At least for samsung devices, these generally end up being like an app-store for themed stock firmwares. (I refuse to call it a ROM when it's not "read-only.") There isn't any clear rule on what, exactly, is put in this subforum. One moderator posted "For something you CREATED." Well, not a single poster on XDA created touchwiz - they only modify it. Another moderator said "The only thing in Development will be true development. Roms and kernels." Well, tweaking touchwiz isn't really "true" development, is it?
Taking those two posts together, and combining with the current reality (at least in the samsung device forums), it appears that the "development" forum is used for modified stock firmware. However, at what level? I've seen people deodex a touchwiz stock firmware, change the "build.prop" and post it in development. Others take that same deodex'd firmware, modifying a couple of apk's, and post that there. Is this "development?" If so, what about if the person only posted the apk's that they modified without forcing the users to take the entire package? I've seen this frequenty in the development forum, but apparently this is a case where some moderators have different rules than others. From a DEVELOPER point of view, the latter is better as it gives people the chance to have the modifications they want and not the ones they don't want.
You see, the "rules" are vague.
There needs to be a clear and precise set of guidelines on what these subforums are for - and those guidelines posted in the general forum rules where everyone can read them. As well, I think it would help prevent the issue of each moderator having a different interpretation of what post belongs in what forum. Oh, and if someone actually does this, please include a note telling developers where they are allowed to discuss development.
That leads, of course, to the current XDA moderators. Honestly, there are too many and they apparently aren't given clear guidance.
I'm playing around with the AT&T Note2, and I think there are currently 5-7 active moderators each enforcing their own interpretation of the rules in that forum. As a user of the forum, I've learned to expect that each moderator has a different style and different view of the rules, but at least one of those moderators isn't even consistent in his own enforcement. If two threads are nearly identical, and one is closed for "meaningless content", why isn't the other one also closed? The best part was when I sent a PRIVATE message to that moderator pointing this out, the response I got was "Sir, your thoughts should be kept to yourself." As well, this moderator informed me that "the report system on XDA is not for making a statement and or to submit feedback." (Okay... that's a new rule.) I think it's probably significant that this particular moderator seems to have something personal against me. Not sure what or why. Honestly, at this point, I don't even care why.
So, here I am as a developer. I'm on a forum called "xda-developers" (And I've been here for over 6 years.) However, I feel at this point that this "developers" forum is no longer targeting developers. In fact, it appears to be chasing them away. I've had development discussion threads shut down by non-developer moderators. I've had my threads where I share my development work moved around (out of "development".) and been told by that moderator to keep my feedback to myself. (That's from a PRIVATE MESSAGE!!!!)
Why are forums like "rootzwiki" becoming so popular? Perhaps it's due to the lack of developer friendliness here on XDA.
Personally, I REALLY hate to see XDA going this way. I've been here a long time and while I have no hope of seeing it be the way it once was, it can still be a development forum. Why isn't it?
Yes, this message is being written in response to something that happened. However, that was only the "straw that broke the camels back" so to speak. This is something that's been building up for at least a year.
For now, I've pulled my contributions for the AT&T note2 down from XDA. At this point, I'm not even sure which location they should be posted in (and I have moderators telling me different things.) I'd pull down my other stuff from other devices, but most are out of date by now, so there's really no point.
As well, I have a specific moderator in this set of forums who seems to have an issue with me personally. Right now, I need to back away and cool off.
Gary - there IS an XDA general discussion forum that you apparently missed - http://forum.xda-developers.com/forumdisplay.php?f=263
As to the RD tag - if you recall my currently ongoing G+ saga, I did mention that the RD program had some serious issues at the end of 2011. That was why the ERD program was created, and also why the rules for becoming an RD were made stricter/clearer about a month ago. (With the addition of RC/RT tiers, it's easier to "raise the bar" for RD since there are now lower titles available to those who don't quite make the cut.)
I think some aspects of XDA's process might need to be better documented/clearer - for example, I wasn't even aware of the "Moderator Committee" account until today. I knew there WAS a Moderator Committee, but didn't know exactly who was on it, and that there was a "catchall" account for PMing them all simultaneously.
Unfortunately, I think the rules are indeed unclear in terms of, for example, single-APK modifications. In the I9100 forums, these seem to be split 50/50 between "Themes and Apps" and "Development" - The defining line for some of these is so vague that usually, the moderators let it go unless it's obvious. For example, if you just replaced graphics assets in something, it obviously belongs in "Themes and Apps". If you did smali hacks - it's borderline. In my opinion, if you just post a smali-hacked APK, it goes in T&A. If you actually documented the process for performing the modification so others could apply it to different devices/firmware images, then it probably is justified as "Development". Knowing your past work and ethics, I'm assuming your modifications were from the latter category, however I currently can't review them.
Damn, you're right - I did miss that forum. Well, between the PM I sent to "moderator committee" and its somewhat obvious location here, I'm sure it'll get moved soon (and I'm good with that.)
As for RD - I'll save that for another day.
Take care
Gary
I've moved this thread into the General 'General' section. Gary has some good points, I also think it's strange that development, real development, discussions have no real place other than General, where good work can easily get lost - however, if you have an issue with a moderator you need to take that up with the moderator - you can, of course, report your issues to the Moderator Committee as Entropy has mentioned.
reinbeau said:
I've moved this thread into the General 'General' section. Gary has some good points, I also think it's strange that development, real development, discussions have no real place other than General, where good work can easily get lost - however, if you have an issue with a moderator you need to take that up with the moderator - you can, of course, report your issues to the Moderator Committee as Entropy has mentioned.
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Ann, I TRIED taking it up with that moderator in a private message and was ripped by that person for doing so. I was told to keep my thoughts to myself and that I wasn't supposed to submit feedback.
garyd9 said:
Ann, I TRIED taking it up with that moderator in a private message and was ripped by that person for doing so. I was told to keep my thoughts to myself and that I wasn't supposed to submit feedback.
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THAT particular issue, in my opinion, was uncalled for. (uncalled for from the Moderator you tried to work things out with, not uncalled for from you.)
Thank you for the second move. I just hope it's read by the proper people.
Take care
Gary
The correct process is to direct this sort of thing to the Moderator Committee. Especially make sure to include the PM from the FSM.
jerdog said:
Especially make sure to include the PM from the FSM.
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Pardon my ignorance... "FSM"?
Would it be helpful to post the pmid's of the PM's sent back and forth?
(If I post the pmid's in this thread, can a moderator access them but not anyone else? I don't think it'd be appropriate to post the contents of all the PM's in a public location. I've also very carefully avoiding calling out the name of the moderator.)
Also, the issue that that moderator is only a very small part of the overall thing. If there were CLEAR rules to begin with, I think there'd be less of an issue with specific moderators.
Gary, please either forward your concerns about specific moderators to myself or another member of the moderator committee via pm when you have the chance.
Although it sometimes might not seem like it I can assure you that we intend to keep xda as developer orientated as we possibly can, however we cannot do that without feedback from people such as yourself.
Sent From My Fingers To Your Face.....
Sorry, I see you've already sent a pm to the mod committee account. Disregard my last post. Well, the first part anyway.....
That's what I get for skimming the thread.....
Sent From My Fingers To Your Face.....
I've sent you a PM, conantroutman. If there's anything else I can do for that particular issue, please let me know.
In my post, I mentioned the inconsistency of the moderating and dealing with the so-called "Development" subforums. I had a post moved out of that subforum and was told (among other things) that "The only thing in Development will be true development. Roms and kernels."
Since that time, a few other threads have been posted in there.
One is nothing more than a deodex of the stock firmware. No "development" in running a deodex script. (I had to deodex the stuff I posted before working on it... no effort there.)
Another is (and this is some high end "development") an empty edify zip file. I'm serious. Someone made a generic .zip file that has nothing in the /system directory, but will copy everything from that (empty) directory to the device system directory.
Finally, there's a thread with modem dumps. Seriously, a "development" subforum thread containing dumps of a "dd" command.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1986556
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1986645
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1986480
If I'm going to be attacked and have my threads moved when they involve actual development effort (even if it's only a single apk), then I don't see how purely stock stuff or empty shells are permitted. At least what I posted changes the behavior of the device when installed.
I'm not even sure who or what to blame for this. Is it that a specific moderator was attacking my post? Was it that each moderator has a different idea of what goes where? Is it that the rules are so vague that it's perfectly reasonable for a moderator to roll dice to decide if a thread should be moved?
This message isn't to attack the posts above. Personally, I think the development subforum is a reasonable place for at least the first two. (The modem dumps should probably be a sticky in the general subforum based on what I've seen in the past.) However, based on the guidelines quoted to me by moderators of XDA, none of this stuff should be in there.
I really hope this gets addressed.
Gary
Some rather interesting points being made here which I think we, XDA, should take on board. We obviously want XDA to be easy to navigate through, plus we also want it to be easy for people to contact us (The MC) amongst others
Personally, I thought it was rather easy and straight forward, but then again I've been here for years, it may not be so easy for others, especially new users
I'm going to create a new thread in the "About XDA" forum asking for users to give feedback or recommendations on site layout, contacts, procedures etc?
I hope you add any thoughts you may have
Rick
Moderator Committee
Here's the kinds of things that this leads to:
I'd like to post a thread trying to document and catalog the CSC variables in a samsung stock firmware, how to change them, and the impacts of changing them. This single set of variables can change nearly any aspect of a phone from what settings are available for the user to what color scheme the stock email app uses.
Which subforum does it get put in? Its certainly targeted for development purposes. Does it get put into "general" (and get lost in the clutter of "Post pictures you take with your phone")? It's certainly not a theme. I have NO IDEA the proper place to put this, and now I wonder if it's easier to just not contribute to XDA than to waste my time trying to navigate the mess.
This one amuses me: There are now SEVERAL threads in that development subforum I had my stuff moved from that are nearly identical to a post I made (and which was moved out of dev.) I mentioned these via PM to one of the moderators who supported moving my stuff before. He responded that he'd look into those new posts last night. Yet, they (and many more) are still there without being moved.
What message should I take from that?
I think you're touching on one of those issues where XDA's growth has caused difficulties to manage things, and an ideal solution has yet to be determined.
For example, on the topics of how certain types of development discussion (like figuring out a register map) might not be considered "development" in the current rules even though they should be - If you don't use the current rules, what DO you use? If you're not careful, you wind up with Development subsections cluttered with threads of "Let's fix X" (even though we have no clue how) - Some users consider that "development" even if they're in WAY above their heads and the thread has zero actual development.
It helps when moderators for a forum are developers themselves. It helps them make those "grey area" calls - as a result the I9100 forums are in pretty good shape because a number of the I9100 moderators were experienced developers, and a few senior moderators/admins owned the I9100 and hence hung out in those forums. (For example: Pulser). But as XDA grows, it's harder to get FSMs that have development experience for all forums, without overloading them and frying their brains.
What's the answer? I don't know - but please keep in mind that unfortunately, for some of these, there is no easy answer.
BTW, there is some planned rework for organization of the "Development" sections that was mentioned in the "Future" part of Jerdog's "XDA: Past, Present, and Future" presentation at BABBQ. Unfortunately, issues with the conference center network prevented the talk from being recorded/streamed as was originally planned. BTW, this is one reason I think you should apply for RD status - some issues like this are things that do get discussed in the RD forums.
As to your example of CSC modification - I think a comprehensive guide for this WOULD be highly useful. The problem is, you know that within days, someone will see that and throw up a "hey everyone, throw this **** in your build.prop and it'll be AWESUM!!1!!!1!1!" thread... A detailed technical analysis of each entry and what it does would be something I'd consider "development" especially if some research needed to be done (including baksmali'ing, etc.) to determine something's true function - but just "OMG THIS WILL MAKE UR PHONE AWESUM!!11!!!!" threads wouldn't be... And that's the problem, how do you let the former reside in Development without the latter creeping in? Decisions like that are going to be difficult for many moderators.
Entropy512 said:
And that's the problem, how do you let the former reside in Development without the latter creeping in? Decisions like that are going to be difficult for many moderators.
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Perhaps some form of OP moderated post? Any replies are reviewed by the OP before being visible. Sadly, I don't think XDA's forum software supports this type of thing.
As an alternative, a thread locked to all but the OP. The person who started the thread states that comments/additions should be sent via PM and will be added if deemed appropriate. (I read somewhere that RD's can moderate their own threads... if true, that might be the perfect solution.)
There'd still need to be some moderation, as surely as I write this, you'll have certain people starting those types of threads everyplace one doesn't already exist regardless of their own ability to test things, etc. (Just look at how any time a new device section is added even weeks before anyone has the device, there are instantly "post your homescreens", "guide to kernels/roms" and other things the mods only allow one of.)
Oh, and Entropy512... sorry about trying to give you more work in that other thread that Fallen Spartan started.
Entropy512 said:
BTW, this is one reason I think you should apply for RD status - some issues like this are things that do get discussed in the RD forums.
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Heh - at this point, I doubt that would happen. In the past 2 days, I've managed to get quite a few people on XDA pissed at me. It's not that I've tried to, just that I got to the mental point of speaking "plainly" instead of trying to be politically correct.
As well, and to be completely fair, I haven't been posting most of my code contributions here on XDA lately. Then again, there's no good place to post things like "add support for sms messaging over bluetooth" on XDA. It's not product by itself, but something that needs to be compiled into a larger project - hence there's no home for it here.
(I'm (perhaps incorrectly assuming that the RD program on XDA depends on a certain number of things posted here on XDA.)
Hi Gary,
First of all, I'd just like to say that I've read through your posts in this thread and the "feedback/ recommendations for xda" thread and you've had some great thoughts and ideas which I reckon could definitely improve certain aspects of this site. The main problem just seems to be putting it into action and making sure the ides stays as true as possible to what it's meant to be, rather than filter off into something which will fizzle out and have nothing more mentioned about it.
Now onto the suggestion of OP moderated posts.
While this could be a great idea on other forums, I don't really think it's feasible here on XDA.
If a thread is at the stage where it may be needed for the OP to review what posts are allowed, that is the exact same moment when that idea would simply become unmanageable.
I think this because no matter what the persons "level" on XDA is, there would be too many posts to review to give them time to do anything else. This is especially true for those who are developers, not just RDs.
As a result of it being too much for them to handle, things would revert back to the system currently in place. We've then gained nothing.
The same would also ring true if OPs would need to add posts themselves, out of all the PMs they'd received. Even if the OP of a thread was happy to wade through all the PMs they receive, it's quite easy to accidentally miss some messages.
Even mods have missed a message of mine at times simply because they have loads come through. The OP would surely have even more PMs come through meaning that loads more messages could be skipped by accident.
And yes, RDs can moderate their own threads but only to the extent of closing/reopening it. They can't remove comments like moderators can.
James
''Absolute power corrupts absolutely, but absolute powerlessness does the same''