Develop Bugs

A complaint about this section of XDA-DEVS. (Development and Hacking)

quite simply, the the 'development and hacking' section of xda-devs has a cluelessn00b to developer ratio of about 1000-1. I understand that everyone is excited about some of the stuff that goes on in that section, but its bad for several reasons:
firstly, how can any dev communicate when people are continuously rudely demanding information (in broken english or text speek) which is on the first page of a thread or has been communicated several times since then.
secondly, its not safe for the cluelessn00bs... if i was a bit more evil, i could easily make an app to kill to boot loader and pretend that its the latest manila4d or whatever. real devs would probably think about it before running it, clueless noobs would dive right in and we'd have a wave of bricked devices.
i know its hard to fix this kind of issue, and this post is not meant as any disrespect to any mod or admin of xd.com (its clearly disrespect to the cluelessb00ns who cant read the domain name, the forum section nor the first post)
the only suggestions i can personally make are an allow list on threads - managed by the thread owner (and the ability to pass ownership of the first thread would make sense too) or maybe to post in dev+hacking you have to be a senior member (having said that, ive seen some senior members be as clueless and the n00bs)
i beg that some consideration is placed on this, because, in all reality, ive given up on the manila3d thread. theres just no point in me battling the waves of idiocy any longer. the chance of me actually developing? pffft.

It saddens me
I was a bit disappointed hearing this from a marvelous developer such as you are but I believe you are not evil because you have tried your best to bring us the best out of our devices
Please do reconsider...

I hear what you're saying, mate. I lurked around this place for over six months before making my first post, just reading up and learning. People don't want to read anymore...they think that this place is the instant free tech support center.

djboo, I don't agree! Most of the threads in D&H subforum are developer or constructive threads. This is not an easy thing to accomplish, and I think it shows the quality of the forum. You can't disable access to "noobs", developers make their stuff for everyone, not just other developers or experienced people! I'm glad if other people like something I make.

Partially agree...
djboo said:
quite simply, the the 'development and hacking' section of xda-devs has a cluelessn00b to developer ratio of about 1000-1. I understand that everyone is excited about some of the stuff that goes on in that section, but its bad for several reasons:
firstly, how can any dev communicate when people are continuously rudely demanding information (in broken english or text speek) which is on the first page of a thread or has been communicated several times since then.
secondly, its not safe for the cluelessn00bs... if i was a bit more evil, i could easily make an app to kill to boot loader and pretend that its the latest manila4d or whatever. real devs would probably think about it before running it, clueless noobs would dive right in and we'd have a wave of bricked devices.
i know its hard to fix this kind of issue, and this post is not meant as any disrespect to any mod or admin of xd.com (its clearly disrespect to the cluelessb00ns who cant read the domain name, the forum section nor the first post)
the only suggestions i can personally make are an allow list on threads - managed by the thread owner (and the ability to pass ownership of the first thread would make sense too) or maybe to post in dev+hacking you have to be a senior member (having said that, ive seen some senior members be as clueless and the n00bs)
i beg that some consideration is placed on this, because, in all reality, ive given up on the manila3d thread. theres just no point in me battling the waves of idiocy any longer. the chance of me actually developing? pffft.
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I partially second that, although I think that membership seniority based on number of posts isn't the best practice if to implement what you proposed. As I, for example, don't post a lot but read the forum for almost 2 years, and have dev. background (and I guess there a lot of others like that), there are some that post a lot of questions and/or comments that are not that dev. inclined or do not have the knowledge (yet?).
I do see your point here, and me too stopped following the TF3D thread after tons of non development related issues. Maybe putting Dev/Hack as read-only and people would have to ask a mod / admin for posting rights on it? And then giving full access to the Q&A thread / new section? So devs. could enjoy it more, general community could still get the latest (downloading newer version from Dev/Hack, etc.) and get questions answered in an orderly fashion... BUT, what with those nice little apps people write and post here from time to time, that come from someone that is not THAT involved in the community? They'd simply go elsewhere, and I guess this IS the most valuable asset the community have. With all due respects to the "regulars", I think those that pass by once in a while and contribute are
invaluable too. Guess it's the price to pay for innovation, having to sort through the non-sense to find the gems.
In the end, I think the problem here are the filters we use. Maybe we just need to find a better way to organize the data here, so it's easier to follow... What I do hope, is that whatever is done, doesn't change the essence of this great oasis...

I kinda agree with ur second part but i'm sure someone would have told the mods if it was a "dangerous app", rite?

I am a noob
Ok, I understand quite well what you are saying. Being a noob myself, i am learning as much as i can, slowly but I hope surely.
I try to read thoroughfully each thread that I have interest in.
The only regret I have is the search engine. For example, I'm still searching for a thread where it explains how to modify spb mobile shell files to have PI8 as the default calendar. I know the intel is there somewhere, but I'm having a hard time to find the right post/thread.
So maybe one of the possibilities would be to enhance a little the search engine or the way results are shown => enlighten the searched words...
Please reconsider, don't be to hard on the noobs, I think we aren't so bad, some of us want to learn.
And thank you very much for your patience, talent and ideas.

I do agree too that there is too much "I like that.... whats it for?" when a lot of the time the developers do put the information in their posts. BUT..... sometimes these STUPID, RANDOM comments do contribute by putting an idea out there to be expanded on. Sometimes they provide needed feedback and ideas.
If you restrict access to these areas then you may as well shut down the site.
This is a forum and as such there will ALWAYS be those annoying clueless posts but you have to remember that you were once there yourself...
You have to make allowances for those members who DON'T speak english very well as they may be very tech savy but just have difficulty putting their ideas down in English. They may actually give something back..
And thats my 2 cents

hi all
in fact there was a section missing , here , for asking
seems they are doing something very soon , reading the sticky thread
Here
and so the D&H will come back to be free for real dev

djboo perhaps you are a little hasty in this thread and I agree with some of what you say, however, alot of ppl respect everything you and other developers give us immensely! without ppl like yourself alot of us would never use Windows Mobile devices, instead following the masses of other "mind washed" CrApple iphone uses, anyway please don't stop sharing just because a few mindless teenagers didn't get enough Oxygen at birth!

people make their own choices. if you post something which might trigger a brick and someone uses it you can blame him for either trying something without investigating first or for just being plain stupid (depending on the circumstances).
the fact that this section is a target for terrorist idiots action isn't different from any other internet or real forum in the world. people tend to go wherever's warmer and cuddle there.. and try to suck every little ounce of good they can find in that place.
that's why you can find thousands of stupid posts and questions instead having a clear, professional section. not using search, not being able to read rules before posting.. that's international.
as for restricting... I must disagree to the proposal. it would require more work from the dev to find the members he'd like to share this with instead of just posting his work. and being a senior member on this forum means NOTHING considering it depends on the number of posts you have rather on how long you've been around or how much you have contributed to this community.
but what i do suggest is, that a member will have to be at least X months old in this forum to post. this will make people use search and learn before they come up with stupid questions.
cheers.

As a link above has p[pointed out, there is a new forum coming for questions. If you really have a problem with some of this noob questions, PM a mod/report the post.
Also, if you want to post a thread as an announcement, rather than a questions/answers thread, PM a mod to get it locked.
If you don't let new members post, they will never find anything out.
One final thing: you yourself have posted this in an area in which it doesn't belong. It has nothing to do with Development or Hacking, it's about what happens in this forum. As such, I'm going to move the thread to the "About xda-devs" section.

Thread's like this always remind me this post by Kyphur: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=2031989&postcount=45
Ta
Dave

i dont beleive personally in censorship of anysort. seriously. im like a big ass hippy and everything.
but some of the people in the developers section of this site have barely developed full sentances let alone developed on an 'xda' phone. the floods of the same people asking the same questions over and over again is just disheartening.
maybe just the ability for the thread owner to delete posts would help. since about post 40 on the manila3d thread, theres been...ooh. 7 maybe 8 relevant posts? the rest have been 'my device wont turn off' which is answered in the first post.
meh. maybe we should just open up a new thread for the real developing. disguise the topic. then we might get some work done.

djboo said:
i dont beleive personally in censorship of anysort. seriously. im like a big ass hippy and everything.
but some of the people in the developers section of this site have barely developed full sentances let alone developed on an 'xda' phone. the floods of the same people asking the same questions over and over again is just disheartening.
maybe just the ability for the thread owner to delete posts would help. since about post 40 on the manila3d thread, theres been...ooh. 7 maybe 8 relevant posts? the rest have been 'my device wont turn off' which is answered in the first post.
meh. maybe we should just open up a new thread for the real developing. disguise the topic. then we might get some work done.
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If you want closed developing, why not do it via e-mail, or PM?

DaveShaw said:
Thread's like this always remind me this post by Kyphur: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=2031989&postcount=45
Ta
Dave
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that man said it better than i ever could.

l3v5y said:
If you want closed developing, why not do it via e-mail, or PM?
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i dont want closed developing. i want developing. currently the main thread in question is more like doing lines for teacher. once a day, log in, "HTC-CA drivers disable shutdown, TF3D uses those drivers. use manilatoggle to disable TF3D before you power down" x10

djboo said:
i dont beleive personally in censorship of anysort. seriously. im like a big ass hippy and everything.
but some of the people in the developers section of this site have barely developed full sentances let alone developed on an 'xda' phone. the floods of the same people asking the same questions over and over again is just disheartening.
maybe just the ability for the thread owner to delete posts would help. since about post 40 on the manila3d thread, theres been...ooh. 7 maybe 8 relevant posts? the rest have been 'my device wont turn off' which is answered in the first post.
meh. maybe we should just open up a new thread for the real developing. disguise the topic. then we might get some work done.
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djboo... I understand where you are coming from, but I also do not totally agree with your comments. Although I may be a noob, I do have a lot ov experiance in computing. I do not have the time to develop of backwords engineer apps. I wish I did. I would enjoy doing it. I agree with you that the thread owner should be able to delete posts that are off topic, but I think the thread owner should also move a question with an answer to the first page if they see multiple posts. This would make it easier to find some of the common answers. I agree that users should use the search, but it does not always return what you are looking for. I have made a post and been berated for not using the search (when in fact I had). I truly enjoy the work you and the rest of the developers are doing. Without you guys, my phone would be quite boring, but because of the work done on this site, I am quite happy with my phone and how it operates. I have friends that think I am a god because I help them with thier phone, but I would not be able to do half of what I do if it were not for the work done here. I hope you go back to work on Manilla3D. We noobs need the knowledge you provide. As for off topic posts such as the nes on the Manilla3D thread, a lot of them go on due to people endulging these people by answering thier post or flaming them. I have seen senior members do this and all it does is fuel a lot of these guys. Ignore them! Geez, I have had my ligidimate questions ignored, why not ignore the non-ligitimate ones? Anyway, I will get off my soap box. I appreciate everthing all of you developers do and I hope one day I will have the time to contribute to the development community. Take care.

It is possible to set up a "thread owner" or thread based permission system but it would take some work and more importantly a Vbulletin developer to iron out the issues that may come up.
I have tried it on one other site but it was a little difficult. Of course I think a more productive idea is to have developer groups. Vbulletin has a group system built in as of 3.7 and it allows for comments and such. In 3.8 it will allow groups to have their own message boards. With a little help you can set up 3.7 to also have message boards controlled by the owner of the group.

DaveShaw said:
Thread's like this always remind me this post by Kyphur: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=2031989&postcount=45
Ta
Dave
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djboo said:
that man said it better than i ever could.
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Yup that's why it's in my signature under XDA Mantra.

Moderation in the Dream forums...

What is going on with the moderation in the Dream forums? I have been coming here for quite a few years now, though more reading than posting I grant. I have never seen such lock happy moderation before though.
In the past on the other subforums locking a thread was fairly rare and moderation more in tune with keeping it civil than anything. Moderators kept the peace but left topics and threads to being mostly self-governing. Occasionally a thread would get moved to off topic or the rebellious user warned but nothing like this. About a dozen threads in the last week, six in the last two days alone.
It seems any thread that the moderators feel is a repeat or not needed is locked. There is no warning or explanation by the moderators, just a lock. Instead of educating the user, search first with a link to what the user should have looked for as an example, the discussion is left in limbo. This is making the forum more of a moderated police state than a area for open conversation on topics. This detracts from the ability to have open discussions and the enjoyment of trying to help others.
So I am asking the moderators to please show restraint and give the posters more leeway. There is no need to lock every thread that is a repeat or could have been solved by a search. The threads will go off the front page in due time, locking them simply is not constructive more often than not. If you absolutely must lock it then at least put a post at the end with a reason.

I am not active in the Dream forum, but I will add my thoughts here.
Certain sections of XDA's forums are subject to stricter moderation then others due to the sheer volume of active members in them. For example, the Raphael has seen a US release on all three nationwide carriers, whereas the prior models only saw release on one carrier. This led to more people buying the Raphael, and a large influx of members in the related forums. Due to that influx, we moderators needed to step up our monitoring of those forums in order to keeping them as clean and concise as possible.
This same example applies to the Dream due to it being the first Android phone released.
While I agree with you that a moderator should always leave a quick note as the final post in a closed thread, I also support closing down redundant threads in order to help keep all relevant information in an existing thread; not spread across 5 or 6 different ones.

So I am asking the moderators to please show restraint and give the posters more leeway. There is no need to lock every thread that is a repeat or could have been solved by a search. The threads will go off the front page in due time, locking them simply is not constructive more often than not. If you absolutely must lock it then at least put a post at the end with a reason.
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NotATreoFan said:
While I agree with you that a moderator should always leave a quick note as the final post in a closed thread, I also support closing down redundant threads in order to help keep all relevant information in an existing thread; not spread across 5 or 6 different ones.
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Just thought I would add my two cents in here ( like anyone cares ) because I too have been irritated once or twice by over zealous moderation. Once by a moderator from the Dream forum who came over to the Kaiser forum to delete a whole conversation, because he " thought " we were getting too heated in our debate over M$ supposed actions . There was no flamebaiting, He just thought.
And several times by threads ( not mine ) that were closed without warning or stated reason. I know this is a huge site with a lot of heavy traffic and the Mods are " overworked and under paid " . I also realize that Mods are from around the world, and Moderation style is subject to differing personalities, social and interpersonal customs from different countries. But common courtesy is universal. While many people don't deserve it, please take the time to include a note on why, the thread requires moderation. If you don't have the time , then maybe you should pass the job on to someone who can take the time.
Also in my 1 1/2 years on this site, ( six mo lurking and 1 yr member ) I have PM'd three mods, asking them to please explain their actions in moderating a thread I was posting in, and in all three cases, received nothing, not even an acknowledgement.
This is not a criticism, just my two cents, should someone read this. I have my favorite mods, (natf is one ) Dave and Josh are excellent in the Kaiser forums, mostly because they adhere to the basic tenet, " Moderation in Moderation. "

mikechannon said:
I realise you are being modest there, and the truth is we do care what members think and voicing concern in a calm fashion is appreciated and this kind of feedback is what moderates the Moderators. This is what makes us a community and avoids an "us and them" situation developing.
I don't have anything of value to add to NotATreoFan's comments which match my own feelings on the matter and IMHO reflect the kind of balance we need between being tolerant, courteous and yet maintaining a degree of organisation.
Mike
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Thanks for taking that in the context that it was meant, I know that Admin and Mods do care what membership thinks.

denco7 said:
Thanks for taking that in the context that it was meant, I know that Admin and Mods do care what membership thinks.
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AND they are simply men and women They could make mistakes, they act differently in the same situation. Suggestions and opinions are always welcome!

i reckon there should be a new button next to the report post button that serves as an appeal button if someone thinks that a tread has been closed for no reason the the button should allow for appeal. a box is filled n explaining the thread and why there was no reason to delete it this is then pmd to the closer of the thread then negotaiations will start

Please do not take my original post too harshly. I do appreciate the mods here on XDA-developers and think that they do a great job. But at the same time when the mods get a little over zealous this seemed the best way to bring up my protest. (I could not PM the moderator in question because I do not know who was closing the threads.)
So thanks again for making this a great place to come back to over the years and keep up the good work.

JanetPanic said:
What is going on with the moderation in the Dream forums? I have been coming here for quite a few years now, though more reading than posting I grant. I have never seen such lock happy moderation before though.
In the past on the other subforums locking a thread was fairly rare and moderation more in tune with keeping it civil than anything. Moderators kept the peace but left topics and threads to being mostly self-governing. Occasionally a thread would get moved to off topic or the rebellious user warned but nothing like this. About a dozen threads in the last week, six in the last two days alone.
It seems any thread that the moderators feel is a repeat or not needed is locked. There is no warning or explanation by the moderators, just a lock. Instead of educating the user, search first with a link to what the user should have looked for as an example, the discussion is left in limbo. This is making the forum more of a moderated police state than a area for open conversation on topics. This detracts from the ability to have open discussions and the enjoyment of trying to help others.
So I am asking the moderators to please show restraint and give the posters more leeway. There is no need to lock every thread that is a repeat or could have been solved by a search. The threads will go off the front page in due time, locking them simply is not constructive more often than not. If you absolutely must lock it then at least put a post at the end with a reason.
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If you ask me there aren't enough locked threads in the dream section. There are over 80 different threads for the new haykuro build there, 80!!! Probably more because i stopped counting at page 20. I also might add that the main haykuro thread has over 6000 posts and counting. The dream section is out of control and needs serious moderator intervention. One moderator simply cannot do all this himself. I know the dream mod, or at least the only active mod there that i can see and he is excellent at not only helping people but moderating in general. Let a thread be self governed? That's a very scary though!!! I am a moderator at another site and i can say it is not a moderators job to be a friend, be respectful or give you an explaination as to why he or she did what they did. Yes i do give an explaination and most mods on here do as well but they are here to maintain the rules of the forum and the upkeep of the forum in general. If threads were locked its more than likely because you or others got off topic, double posted or started a new thread when another about the exact same thing already existed. Case in point, there is a section for members to post questions to mods about anything already and you opened a new thread on the subject.

Ha I couldn't agree MORE with Ryanmo. There should be tighter and more rigid controls there. In fact I don't think it's (currently) possible for there to be moderation there at the moment...too many new bodies added to the fray. And we all know most of them are not reading the Sticky posted at top saying "Must read before you post". I don't have any problem with xda mods enacting 1-3 day temp bans on some of the frequent offenders.

knight4linux said:
Ha I couldn't agree MORE with Ryanmo. There should be tighter and more rigid controls there. In fact I don't think it's (currently) possible for there to be moderation there at the moment...too many new bodies added to the fray. And we all know most of them are not reading the Sticky posted at top saying "Must read before you post". I don't have any problem with xda mods enacting 1-3 day temp bans on some of the frequent offenders.
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Haha yeah the sticky at the top about the rules says a little over 23,000 views. The hacking thread has been viewed over 300,000 times, go figure. I probably report 15 posts a day to try and help but your right its outta control.

Hello Friends,
Well i have seen these site and i am quite surprise here that though more reading than posting I grant. I have never seen such lock happy moderation before though.As i am not a active member but ya i will add my though if any and will discuss So I am asking the moderators to please show restraint and give the posters more leeway. There is no need to lock every thread that is a repeat or could have been solved by a search. The threads will go off the front page in due time, locking them simply is not constructive more often than not. If you absolutely must lock it then at least put a post at the end with a reason. Thanx

can someone please unlock this thread
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=429808&page=22

It is not that rules and regulations are not in place in this site. They are posted all over the place. In fact, if you look at my sig, I have them there as a hyperlink (many other members do the same). Why do threads and posts get locked, moved, or otherwise deleted left and right? It is because lots of users (particularly new ones but seasoned users also) do not read these rules. They do not know that they should search before posting or opening new threads; they do not know that there are sections to ask questions that are not relevant to the section they posted at; they do not know that profanity shouldn't be used around here due to a large young crowd; they do not know that flaming (particularly for no apparent reason) is strictly prohibited....
Moderators have little time to be messing around with people who simply do not understand that there are rules that must be followed (or read for that matter). Hence, they close the threads with no previous notice and at times, leave no excuse behind. They don't do it out of the content of their hearts, and they are definitely not watching over every single thread at all times. If you see a thread being closed, it is normally due to someone complaining about it, and more often than not, mods will analyze the trend of the thread and if necessary either warn users to stop, or just flat out close it (normally they warn unless the thread itself is breaking the rules... think of posting warez for instance).
I have yet to see abuse of power by a mod in this forum. And I am pretty sure that if there happens to be a mod that does abuse his/her God-given powers.... let's just say that they will be judged by a higher power
My 2 cents!

Although some moderators try and go out of their way to leave a message as to why they lock a thread, that is not their job. Our job is to make sure people are following the rules.
Here is a little scenario, i log on at night and jump over to the D&H section.... there i find 10 new threads asking questions.
A) I can delete the threads
B) I can close the threads by simply going through and checking every thread and then closing.
C) i can individually open each thread and leave a message for each person
D) i can wait for another moderator to do it
E) move the thread for them
Well i cant delete them or people will think their thread never got posted and just post it AGAIN. If you move peoples threads for them they think they can post anywhere and it will just be moved where it needs to go. I dont have time to open every thread and leave a message for every person everytime, and if i leave it for another moderator, it might not get done.
Really i am only left with checking all of the threads and closing them. if you have a question you can READ the rules, as it is your resonsibilty as a member, and find the answer. (Or of course you can pm a mod)
You guys have to remember that there are over 1,537,526 members on this site and around 66 mods and admin. We do our best to help you guys but we dont always have the time to write a personal letter for everyone of your and put it in you lunch box.

I agree (not that it matters). Mods have absolutely NO responsibility to post why they closed a thread...Why? Because they already are posted...in the rules up top. Its you, the new users that have the resposibility. That responsibility to read the rules before you post (RTFM). It even says at the bottom (of the rules) what will happen if they are not followed.
And by allowing multiple threads of the SAME simple questions (Especially in a phones development section) this completely ruins development and progress, not to mention this is a free and public forum. That means its hosted on servers, and these duplicate threads/posts start to add up.
Trust me. Frequent the forums for more than a few months and it'll start to wear on you too, almost as much as it does to the mods.

UPDATE:
As of late, there seems to be a lot of issues with the dream section, many many topics on bricked phones, new OS releases, old releases, random topics, and other posts. The title of the forum is Dream android 'development', and its actually hard now to find 'development' scattered in many of the different types of topics in there.
SUGGESTION/RECOMMENDATION:
Make a sub-forum of the development forum (or of the whole dream forum like the current 5 main sub-forums), named something like troubleshooting, or repair, or something like that. That way, anyone with a broken phone can post in there maybe. It might be a bad suggestion simply because the 'helpers' may not check there...but I cant think of a better way to keep the 5 different topics a day saying "I have a different brick problem" organized so actual development [important] topics can stay up top, where they should be.
Anyone with a better idea, express it so something can be done, its quite a mess right now.
[Oh and maybe a description under the android dev. forum something in capital letters saying: be careful, and read everything before taking action!!!, because I think some people end up with bricks because of anticipation and possibly dont read. Just as a [duh] advisory, ya know?]
/rant
Thanks [btw not bashing the mods, its just a bit hectic it seems right now, many things going on there]

theslam08 said:
UPDATE:
As of late, there seems to be a lot of issues with the dream section, many many topics on bricked phones, new OS releases, old releases, random topics, and other posts. The title of the forum is Dream android 'development', and its actually hard now to find 'development' scattered in many of the different types of topics in there.
SUGGESTION/RECOMMENDATION:
Make a sub-forum of the development forum (or of the whole dream forum like the current 5 main sub-forums), named something like troubleshooting, or repair, or something like that. That way, anyone with a broken phone can post in there maybe. It might be a bad suggestion simply because the 'helpers' may not check there...but I cant think of a better way to keep the 5 different topics a day saying "I have a different brick problem" organized so actual development [important] topics can stay up top, where they should be.
Anyone with a better idea, express it so something can be done, its quite a mess right now.
[Oh and maybe a description under the android dev. forum something in capital letters saying: be careful, and read everything before taking action!!!, because I think some people end up with bricks because of anticipation and possibly dont read. Just as a [duh] advisory, ya know?]
/rant
Thanks [btw not bashing the mods, its just a bit hectic it seems right now, many things going on there]
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That has been added as a suggestion and I will push for it again in the mod section.
BTW I am a Dream mod and I am usually the one that closes threads or deletes them. I don't always leave a message because it is more time consuming. I can have an unclean section with everyone getting a response and therefore getting their locked post bumped. Or I can have a cleaner (it will never be clean) section with angry users who didn't search in the first place.
I chose the later by the way.

neoobs said:
That has been added as a suggestion and I will push for it again in the mod section.
BTW I am a Dream mod and I am usually the one that closes threads or deletes them. I don't always leave a message because it is more time consuming. I can have an unclean section with everyone getting a response and therefore getting their locked post bumped. Or I can have a cleaner (it will never be clean) section with angry users who didn't search in the first place.
I chose the later by the way.
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Mhm, and you do what you can, I notice somethings being done by you, which is good that something is being done. I used to mod/administrate big places so I know what its like, its a pain when people cant search, or arent sure of where to post so they post anywhere (sometimes in the effort of 'just getting an answer').
This causes the clutter, especially when there are multiple 'different but very similar' type topics being created, and its tricky to know which to close and which not to close. Thats why I think maybe a separate forum 'might' be the best solution, because as of right now, bricks are happening pretty quickly and thats not good (no one to blame, just the anticipation again).
I appreciate the backing, hope 'something' can be done, its just really crowded right now (making the 'new' browsers get lost [causing the multiple similar topic issue], and your job harder).

One problem is the sticky's need to be updated by the people who started them. Many are older and with 5 different roms available to flash now they simply don't meet the demand for all these different roms. The rom developers need to do a better job of explaining how to flash their roms. The newest one tried to get a little too cute and force a new apps2sd method on users and the result was a lot of looped (not bricked) g1's. The sub forum could consist of how to's and guide's. I'm not sure a sub forum is the best way to go though, There are already 5 and most phones on here don't even have 4. Xda simply need more help with this section, neoobs has been cleaning house and i thank you but you can't do it all lol. I am a moderator on another site, not here but will do what i can to report posts as much as possible to help the mods.

Ryanmo5 said:
One problem is the sticky's need to be updated by the people who started them. Many are older and with 5 different roms available to flash now they simply don't meet the demand for all these different roms. The rom developers need to do a better job of explaining how to flash their roms. The newest one tried to get a little too cute and force a new apps2sd method on users and the result was a lot of looped (not bricked) g1's. The sub forum could consist of how to's and guide's. I'm not sure a sub forum is the best way to go though, There are already 5 and most phones on here don't even have 4. Xda simply need more help with this section, neoobs has been cleaning house and i thank you but you can't do it all lol. I am a moderator on another site, not here but will do what i can to report posts as much as possible to help the mods.
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Agreed 100%, it seems there are alot of stickies there, maybe redundant on some, but are necessary on others. There should be a way to make it distinguishable between information/guides, developments, and problems. They do need to be updated as well.
I agree, a forum might not be the best way because there might be 'lost' posts which would not work either (like the new magic thread that showed up, though I dont dissagree with that simply because the OP is correct, android is android, and the magic needs some help, maybe because we stole quite a bit from it too? lol. but still posting to 'get help' anywhere).
Is there a modification for vb that makes stickies different color than the regular topics? I never administrated vb only ipb and smf so I dont know. But that would be a big help there, then the new comers can instantly see which are informal.
Im trying to report, to help you so you dont need to spend as much time 'looking' as doing the task. Its not 'too' bad right now, when I first posted though omg it was disaster. Once the new rom comes out though....thennn its gonna be biig trouble again.
Update: I was looking at something...the first forum, named Dream. That I was actually looking at for the first time, it seems pretty useless really. A lot of the topics in there could definitely go into the development thread...OR that forum could get changed to something else and cleaned up. There arent many 'general' topics for the phone I dont think, whats general for the phone? What is the g1? Maybe but useless indeed. So maybe instead of MAKING a new forum, just change that one and clean it up. Make it a troubleshooting forum, or a tutorial section, or just updates, or something I dont know. But maybe just better use of it I think.

[Feature request] An approach to freing the dev sections from Off-topic and Spam

Hello fellow XDA-Users,
I have been a member of this forum for quite some time now, and currently spend my time in the Optimus 2X section.
People from there might recognize me from my guide on how to build cyanogenmod7 from source and some bits and pieces
from the O2X section.
Some of you might know, that LG delayed the update for this phone quite a bit, which brings me to the purpose of this
thread: The amount of spam and Off-Topic in the general section as well as the development section has blown up
insanely over the last 2-3 months, and this has caused a lot of tension between users and mods, among users and of course
users and devs. While, in case of the general section, this might be bearable, it is not for the dev section, since the real
devs can't work properly because all the useful information gets buried under the same questions and off-topic again and again.
Just recently, a mod was required to close a thread containing bleeding edge information and made it clear that he had no
intention of reopening it again.
I have spent a lot of time thinking about this, and I want to dump my thoughts for a solution in this thread. While
I don't know to which degree these can be implemented or if they might contradict the philosphy or user-rights of XDA,
I still want to post them. These ideas apply first and foremost to the dev section. I see the dev section as a read-only
section for anyone that doesn't have anything to contribute towards the development, no matter how long he has been
here or how many posts he already made. Therefore I propose the following mechanics to keep the dev sections clear of Spam.
Allow only recognized developers, contributors and the other verified ranks in the forums to start threads in the dev section.
This prevents off topic threads from being created in the first place. If someone new really wants to start a new thread because
he really has something useful to share, I imagine some sort of verification process where users can submit their threads and
moderators, or maybe even the parties allowed to post already, to review and approve the topics. This will create additional workload
on the moderators, but I believe it won't be that much more compared to the endless reports they are receiving right now. Also, allowing
a larger base of users (recognized contributors/developers) to approve the topics will reduce the workload even further.
To prevent the spamming of existing threads, apply the same strategy as mentioned above with the following changes:
For a specific threads, the thread starter (and possibly a list of users defined by the thread starter) can either approve single
posts or users in general to being able to post in the thread. The user, after being approved, will be able to post freely in the
thread, or maybe even in all threads by the approving thread starter.
I know these are very strict rules, but since they are only applied to the dev sections, I think they are worth considering, since it
will reduce all posts made in this section to those really dealing with dev stuff. Like I already mentioned, it may increase the workload
on whatever mods/users will have to approve. This gave life to my idea of expanding this userbase to the recognized developers/contributors
as well.
I see that my concept is anything but precisely laid out, but I think it represents a good base to create a system, that will make the
dev sections of this forum what they used to be: A place where developers can develop without having to read through pages of spam and
off topic and thus be more productive and less pissed off. The approval also puts another step into the process of thread/post creation
that might make users reconsider if they really want to post or perform a simple search first.
Thanks for your time!
Also, in order for this thread to be recognized, please give it a good rating. Thank you.
aMpeX
edit: Just to make myself clear again, this approach is far from perfect, but I believe with some input and discussion, we can make it so.
Please feel free to post your opinions, corrections or extensions to this idea.
I will try to collect some ideas from the discussion to summarize it here:
Inspired by anasdcool71's post:
Give OPs the opportunity to decide whether they want to moderate their thread, or accept any comment that is made during thread creation
by ticking a checkbox for example.

Hear, hear. I have said almost exactly the same thing myself before now and couldn't agree more with your thoughts. It's not an ideal solution, but maybe XDA need to take an uber-strict approach to stop this destruction by its own users.

this topic needs ofc a lot of discussion, expecially since i know neither about the capabilities of the code nor how the owners of XDA want to approach it.
I feel by starting this discussion we can iron out a system that works.
I feel that there is simply no other solution than being a little strict on the dev sections. Users still have enough room to post in the other sections, but in the dev sections, where all the magic happens, this is not helping at all, so I think it makes sense restricting these sections in that manner.

The 2 features are quite good, but still there are certain restrictions.
For the 1st point :-
You said that RCs, RDs and other verified ranks should be allowed to create a thread. Well, most RCs have been given the rank because of their polite and courteous nature throughout the site, and some of their work on guides, ROMs and kernels. RDs are kinda the same, just that their work is an expert one. So basically Senior Members or Members create threads for their ROMs and kernels in the dev section, and then if their work is good enough, they are appointed as RCs and RDs as per the requirement. So this feature cannot extend to only RCs and RDs as it may block the opportunities of other members to become one. Even if a Senior Member is allowed in this feature to create a thread, many good rom devs, who might be new to XDA, may feel the frustration to complete not 10, but 100 posts!
For the 2nd point :-
The OP of the thread might not know the user himself so he might not choose users correctly. Some users holding only the Junior Member or Member title might know a lot of info about that particular rom/kernel. Furthermore, this feature will really prove tiresome for the OP as there will be a lot of users waiting for his/her approval. And as far as the case for spam goes, the OP may inform the particular mod to remove the posts.

anasdcool71 said:
The 2 features are quite good, but still there are certain restrictions.
For the 1st point :-
You said that RCs, RDs and other verified ranks should be allowed to create a thread. Well, most RCs have been given the rank because of their polite and courteous nature throughout the site, and some of their work on guides, ROMs and kernels. RDs are kinda the same, just that their work is an expert one. So basically Senior Members or Members create threads for their ROMs and kernels in the dev section, and then if their work is good enough, they are appointed as RCs and RDs as per the requirement. So this feature cannot extend to only RCs and RDs as it may block the opportunities of other members to become one. Even if a Senior Member is allowed in this feature to create a thread, many good rom devs, who might be new to XDA, may feel the frustration to complete not 10, but 100 posts!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I know this approach wasn't the best. My chain of thaught was simply to try to restrict the userbase that can start a thread. To enable non RDs and RCs to start threads, I included the idea of an approval by either MODs and/or RDs and RCs. After a user has been approved once, he retains the right to start threads and post in the dev section.
I guess my bigger picture is to build a welldefined group of users allowed to post in the dev section, and also easen the way for this group to include new members, since I believe creating a new verified group and manage applications is just too much work.
anasdcool71 said:
For the 2nd point :-
The OP of the thread might not know the user himself so he might not choose users correctly. Some users holding only the Junior Member or Member title might know a lot of info about that particular rom/kernel. Furthermore, this feature will really prove tiresome for the OP as there will be a lot of users waiting for his/her approval.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is also a weak point of my proposition, my idea was to provide some sort of inbox where OPs can see the posts submitted and simply approve the ones he deems fit, thereby weeding out the useless information and SPAM. It is a lot of work ofc, but I, for one, would prefer a clean and moderated dev thread over one bloated with Spam.
Maybe one could let the OP decide which model he wants his thread to follow by, by simply ticking a checkbox during thread creation.

Interesting idea.
I believe I've brought up all of the above suggestions at some point or another (not dismissing or anything, just I have looked into this for a long period of time, several years now in fact!)
I'll try to summarise the benefits and disadvantages of each key suggestion:
1) Allow only "Recognized *" and above to make new threads in dev.
I'd love nothing more than this... The trouble is users wouldn't want it! They will complain if we implement this, since not every developer on XDA is an RD... Some may not have applied, some may have applied but not had it processed yet. Others may have applied and been accepted (but we only add the users to the RD group once per month to reduce time spent on it), and some may have been rejected for not meeting the criteria.
This would end up upsetting more people than it would benefit, causing more arguing and bickering from them
2) Restrict who can post in a thread.
This is what we already aim to do with the 10 post rule. The trouble is that if we raise it, it keeps out genuine contributors. If we lower it, we get crap through. Right now, we think 10 is about the optimum, but that's not to say we're not adverse to ever changing it if needed.
The issue with giving the OP control over who can post is that some people would abuse this. For example, I don't imagine many devs who would "approve" posts critical of their ROM, or giving negative feedback on it. Part of the way XDA works is it ensures that every thread is outwith the control of its owner, so feedback isn't being hidden or removed because it isn't agreed with by the OP of the thread. That's why XDA doesn't follow the trend of a few other sites to give thread owners moderator abilities in their own threads.
We've got a team of mods who are impartial and can deal with issues without considering if a post is "beneficial" to user perception of the developer or not (like a dev would do if he was approving posts).
We do constantly try to think of new ways to solve these problems, and you've given me a few new ones to think about
Thanks

maybe then we should focus on the part of my idea that easens the entry into the group of users that are allowed to posts, not necesarily tieing it to the RC RD status, but unblocking the restrictions individually and extending the committee to administer these admissions from MODs and Admins to RD/RCs.
This would require a one-time effort by new devs, submitting their new ROM/thread to the dev sections, and having it approved by aforementioned group.

pulser_g2 said:
2) Restrict who can post in a thread.
This is what we already aim to do with the 10 post rule. The trouble is that if we raise it, it keeps out genuine contributors. If we lower it, we get crap through. Right now, we think 10 is about the optimum, but that's not to say we're not adverse to ever changing it if needed.
The issue with giving the OP control over who can post is that some people would abuse this. For example, I don't imagine many devs who would "approve" posts critical of their ROM, or giving negative feedback on it. Part of the way XDA works is it ensures that every thread is outwith the control of its owner, so feedback isn't being hidden or removed because it isn't agreed with by the OP of the thread. That's why XDA doesn't follow the trend of a few other sites to give thread owners moderator abilities in their own threads.
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I agree totally about the 10 post limit.. As i have seen many examples of the spam/useless post by newbies/noobs who post in dev section... As our samsung galaxy y duos dev section when created had not got this restriction on it (just an accidental miss i feel).. but its corrected now.. so i have seen how worse it may get if this limit is revoked.. and i have been thinking of an idea as many times i have come across new users complaining that they know about android stuff and they wanted to help dev in development and by the time they complete 10 useful post routine valuable time will be wasted etc... So i thought of this idea when i read the op's message in this thread...
How about providing OP a option to exclude a newbie member who has not made a single post yet to make posts in dev section..? So that if the dev feels/knows the user will be good for his thread and he can contribute to development?
and lets also put another rule to keep spammers away.. as there is a loop hole in my suggestion.. which is when a spammer may create 2 accounts and in one account he will obtain 10 posts and create a thread in dev section.. then spam the thread with another account by making him exception..
So we can add this option to OP of the thread only if the thread has been say one month / one week old... as this will make sure that the thread is not created for spamming and thus it also ensures actual development is going on in the thread and the dev is known.. this exclusion is only for that thread on dev sub forum.. i dont know this may be a too much workload on server..
I was suggesting this exclusion method because i have seen around 5-10 members who PM me whenever they have some issue with my kernel or any other rom related to my device for that matter... i am happy and i have no issues to help them at all.. i have also kindly suggested them to make 10 valuable/useful posts in Q & A section and post in my threads instead of M as it might help other users too who may have same issue/doubt.. but i really cant say it directly into their faces and they may not understand my point ... so i have been interacting with such users through PM and i feel they should have interacted more with forums instead of just one person.. and there might be many others who might have contacting through PM only..
So please consider this..
Also this really is a great suggestion too...
anasdcool71 said:
@pulser_g2 - The if-else statement in your sig is really great. :good:
And I've come up with a request. I've seen that many new users don't actually know/get the reason behind the 10-post limit. I'm not talking anything particularly about spammers, but there are some good users who just don't know the reason. I've just seen so many posts in so many threads saying "this 10-post limit is so frustrating","i have to PM the dev","i can't even report a bug",etc. Not one or two or 10, but many posts like this. So my request was that they'd be directed to that thread "10-post count limit in development fora", after they register. I'm sure many of them will understand. After all, it isn't that hard to get to 10 posts.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

It's an eternal problem than,us, Admins,Mods and all Recognized Tribe against which we are constantly fighting.
In the RC'stribe, we try to think and are trying to find solutions that would enable to reduce the number of useless posts.
I says reduce, cause we can't delete all of these posts.
But the real problem, it's a mentality problem due to Internet.
Actually, with Internet, people can and wanting all, now and quickly. I'm writing a question, I want my answer now!
A large majority of users don't take the time for read and seek. They want everything quickly and now.
And against this fact, we cannot fight!!

For whoever mentioned it, the ten post message does link and explain why... But nobody reads it...

pulser_g2 said:
For whoever mentioned it, the ten post message does link and explain why... But nobody reads it...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Why ? I don't understand what you mean exactly
I have wrote a post on RC chat about this problem and send the link

philos64 said:
Why ? I don't understand what you mean exactly
I have wrote a post on RC chat about this problem and send the link
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Click to collapse
i think he means the 10 post limit sticky thread is already linked and also its explained why its there but still no new user reads it..

philos64 said:
Why ? I don't understand what you mean exactly
I have wrote a post on RC chat about this problem and send the link
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I mean that someone mentioned perhaps making it clearer to users why they can't post etc...
I replied to say that the message already explains this and links them to a thread with information

pulser_g2 said:
I mean that someone mentioned perhaps making it clearer to users why they can't post etc...
I replied to say that the message already explains this and links them to a thread with information
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry @pulser_g2
But I understand what you mean
It's better clear. Thanks

[All XDA Members] Feedback/Recommendations for XDA

After reading a few threads and comments from our members I thought it may be worthwhile to create a Feedback, Recommendations or Idea's thread for XDA. We want to improve our forum for developers and the normal users.
So, rather than sending a PM to a Moderator, please feel free to leave any feedback or idea's you may have to improve XDA, so we can discuss them properly, openly, with the plan to hopefully implement the ideas which are good.
It's sole purpose is to improve XDA and collect your thoughts and idea's.
We will all be monitoring this thread, and someone will hopefully reply without much delay.
Thanks
Rick
Moderator/Developer Committee
Edits done by Clark Joseph Kent to better support XDA.

XDA-Developers needs to be more about developers
While I see that time and users have made XDA less about development and more about user support, I think XDA has gone too far in that direction.
Developers need a place to DISCUSS development.
The "General" subforums are too overwhelmed with threads like "Post pictures of your phone", "list of threads linked from other places" and other random "general user" stuff.
The "Q&A" subforums are now a place where moderators chase newbies to. The most technical question you might find in the Q&A section these days is "I just bricked my phone, what do I do?" (Usually, the answers are either making fun of the OP or telling him/her to search.)
The "Development" subforums, which seems like a logical place to discuss development, is now reserved for people to post finish products only and beg for donations - It's the XDA version of the "app store." There's no actual "development" discussion allowed.
Here's what we don't have anymore (but desperately need):
A place where a kernel developer could start a thread discussing the pitfalls of turning off processor cores on a particular device when the device is idle. That would likely lead into a discussion on possible ways to optimize the IN/OUT code for the cores, which would actually *gasp* promote development.
A place where a person might post a "HOW TO" document describing how to modify a stock firmware for a specific device to override carrier controlled lock downs. (For example, editing the CSC for a samsung device.)
A place for development related DISCUSSION - not just a subform for "I cobbled together mods I copied from other people into a so-called ROM and will now beg you to donate to me and press my "thanks" button."
XDA promotes itself as a DEVELOPERS FORUM. The definition of "forum" is "A meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged." Doesn't that seem to indicate that development related discussion would be encouraged here?
(continued...)
---------- Post added at 11:07 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:51 AM ----------
So, the obvious question about my post above is how do you moderate a "developers discussion" subforum?
I honestly don't see a problem with that. You make posting access to that subforum by request only. The access should be granted pretty freely but with a note reminding the user that any non-development discussions will result in loss of access to those subforums. Plain and simple. Any RD's or ERD's would automatically be given access without the need to post a request.
Only developers should moderate those subforums, as the fact is that XDA has some moderators that have no clue whatsoever what "development" is.
I'd even go so far as to suggest that XDA's ERDs would be given final say in moderating those subforums. Actually, it might be a good idea to give ERDs final say in moderating all the development related forums - including the existing so-called "development" and "original development" subforums.
...
I'll have one more post to discuss the current vagueness of the rules and the random enforcement of them...

Gary, while I agree with many of your key points one I disagree with is that only elite developers (who don't have the time) are the ones who should have the 'final say' with regards to moderation, and that they are the best qualified to do so. Given a good set of rules to use as guidelines, any level headed person who is committed to helping XDA move along smoothly is qualified to be a moderator. I am not a developer, however, I've been moderating forums for years now. People are people no matter what the subject. You and I have discussed the rules, which are being worked on. I like the idea of a 'developer only', invite only forum. I think it's time to make that happen. Given that I am so not a developer, I know when I'm over my head - and we have people on the team who moderators like me can turn to. Moderators are here to help, not hinder - I think we can work this all out so the developers are happier, users learn, and moderators moderate

garyd9 said:
I'd even go so far as to suggest that XDA's ERDs would be given final say in moderating those subforums. Actually, it might be a good idea to give ERDs final say in moderating all the development related forums - including the existing so-called "development" and "original development" subforums.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Some interesting points you've listed, which I can honestly say are being looked at, however your point above, I'm gonna have to disagree with. The ERD's are extremely busy with actual development, as are most, if not all the developers. If we where to also ask the ERDs to moderate all the development related forums, they'd have no time to develop

I didn't suggest that ERD's would be constantly moderating them - only that they'd have the opportunity (if they chose it) to be the final say. Who do you trust more to make an informed decision about what is development and what isnt':
Entropy512 or ModJohnCanBarelyRoot?
I think the ERD's are more involved (at least in reading) than many people think, and XDA should respect their knowledge and ability by giving them the option of stepping in saying that, despite what a non-developer moderator might think, this is or isn't dev related.
Anyway, it's just a suggestion.

garyd9 said:
I didn't suggest that ERD's would be constantly moderating them - only that they'd have the opportunity (if they chose it) to be the final say. Who do you trust more to make an informed decision about what is development and what isnt':
Entropy512 or ModJohnCanBarelyRoot?
I think the ERD's are more involved (at least in reading) than many people think, and XDA should respect their knowledge and ability by giving them the option of stepping in saying that, despite what a non-developer moderator might think, this is or isn't dev related.
Anyway, it's just a suggestion.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Don't get me wrong, I agree with you. I have the utmost respect for ERD's, and RD's. I'm not a developer myself, would never claim to be, but I do try and read up on things to understand them so I can make informed decisions. But likewise, I do ask developers for advice on specific things, then learn from what I'm told. In an ideal world, we'd let ERD's have the final say, maybe even RD's, but with so many in house fights amongst so called dev's, there is the potential for abuse which is what concerns me. I cannot see ERD's doing this mind you.
Again, interesting ideas which I welcome

So on to what I'm sure will be a sore subject: Rules and moderation...
I realize that XDA has grown by leaps and bounds since I first joined. Back then, there were only a handful of people geeky enough to have smartphones. Today, they are the norm. With more users there are more devices, more forums and XDA needed more moderators. That's perfectly understandable. It's also understandable that XDA has reached into the "non-developer" pool of people for moderation help.
However, the forum rules which the moderators supposedly moderate by are too vague and really don't guide users (or moderators) in the proper way to do things. It only makes matters worse then the moderators enforce those rules in seemingly random ways. Finally, when a bad decision is made by a moderator (or a decision that a user thinks is bad), there's no documented way for a user to ask for help. "Report to moderator" is pretty useless when you're only reporting to the same person you are complaining about.
If there's a guideline, it should be shared by ALL the moderators and documented so that users can understand it. The primary location to find these rules and guidelines is a post that is stickied in every single forum/subforum here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/announcement.php?a=81 If it's not in that post, then it's fairly safe to assume that users don't know about it.
So what's wrong with those rules? Well, they are pretty vague in too many cases. Vague rules lead to different people interpreting them differently (or interpreting them selectively for different people.) Here's some examples:
"Don’t use XDA to advertise your product or service. " "Commercial advertising, advertising referral links, pay per click links and other income generating methods are forbidden. Do not use xda-developers as a means to make money." -- Yet, how many people have seen a developer clearly post (or get someone else to post on their behalf) that if people don't "donate" enough money for them to buy a device, they don't development for that device. To me, that sounds like "I'll sell my development for the cost of the device."
"Off-site downloads are permitted if the site is non-commercial and does not require registration.... but may be permitted if ... the site is a relatively small personal website without commercial advertising/links (i.e. not a competitor forum-based site with purposes and aims similar to those of XDA-Developers.com.)" -- There are literally thousands of links on this website for downloads on sammobile.com or samfirmware.com. That site requires registration, advertises, and has forums that "compete" with XDA. Yet, the links are still there.
"If you are developing something that is based on the work of another Member, you MUST first seek their permission, and you must give credit to the member whose work you used." -- I think this one depends on who is violating the rule. Apparently, if its a 15 (now 16) year old kid, it's okay. Yes, I'm bitter about this one as I have had my work used (without my permission), had reported it to moderators, was told someone would look into it, and then had the report disappear into a black hole. It only made matters worse when that same person accepted "donations" given as a result of the code stolen from me. Being I ask people to donate to a children's hospital (not to me) for my work, I feel as if my work was stolen from me, and money was stolen from a child who desperately needed medical care. There's no question as to who developed the code, as gerrit/github timedate stamps don't lie. In truth, I wouldn't have minded about this so much if the little thief forwarded the donations to a real charity. I do share my work freely, but I VERY seriously resented (and still resent) my work was used for a thief's profit. To my way of thinking, there's nothing vague about the rule here - only the lack of enforcement.
Then there's the whole thing with that types of threads go into which subforums. There's simply NO consistency with this. A perfect (and recent) example is that I posted a thread in a dev subforum containing modifications for a single stock samsung package, SecLauncher2.apk. That was pushed to apps&themes by a moderator. That same moderator, however, has permitted threads for modifying only "SystemUI.apk" and only "android.policy.jar." He's also permitted completely non-development related things such as "post modem dumps here" and "stock deodex firmware."
So, not only are the rules vague, but the moderation of the rules is so inconsistent that a user can't even look to precedent to decide what is and isn't allowed.
....
I'm going to stop here. I feel like I've started ranting, and that isn't productive. The points are valid, but discussing them has brought up things I'm (obviously) very bitter about.

Really appreciate this feedback, guys. We're going to bring it forth in our monthly call with the admins and site owner. :highfive:

What about doing a forum named like "other devices root development". There are a lot of potential devices that don't get root because they don't call the devs atraction (and some of the have locked bootloaders).
I also think that there are forums from brand new "high-tech" devices that don't get development because well, there is no development for unlocking bootloaders or doing something like root for locked bootloaders, which happens on some devices. So, again, othere devices could have their chance.
mfsr98

@garyd9, no need to be bitter, I'm actually glad to hear you views, so rant away. I created this thread for this very purpose, to hear the views of the users, to better XDA
...........................
You can lead a fool to wisdom but you can't make him think! XDA, mobile wisdom, not a n00b feeding ground!!

-gary
While I agree with some of what you have said I feel if you want strictly 100% development talk then that is reserved for the RD forum for RDs to have amongst themselves... Yes there are developers that are not RDs and to that I say they should apply to become RDs. There needs to be a place to allow users to provide feedback and suggestions on things that are developed.
Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk 2

sgt. slaughter said:
-gary
While I agree with some of what you have said I feel if you want strictly 100% development talk then that is reserved for the RD forum for RDs to have amongst themselves... Yes there are developers that are not RDs and to that I say they should apply to become RDs. There needs to be a place to allow users to provide feedback and suggestions on things that are developed.
Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk 2
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There is a place for that. The problem is there isn't a place for real development talk. Any real discussions get drowned out by inanity. I think with the influx of new people that noise to real development ratio has finally reached a tipping point. Then again, just how much input can Jon Q. Public have in development other than saying "I want this" or "How do I do that"? Those are user issues. We need to develop better developer solutions.

reinbeau said:
There is a place for that. The problem is there isn't a place for real development talk. Any real discussions get drowned out by inanity. I think with the influx of new people that noise to real development ratio has finally reached a tipping point. Then again, just how much input can Jon Q. Public have in development other than saying "I want this" or "How do I do that"? Those are user issues. We need to develop better developer solutions.
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Hence my initial suggestion, that if you want 100% dev talk take up and use the RD forum and discuss in there...
Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk 2

sgt. slaughter said:
Hence my initial suggestion, that if you want 100% dev talk take up and use the RD forum and discuss in there...
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Xda DEVELOPERS. Why would a site called xda DEVELOPERS push development talk off into a corner, while non development talk reigns free?
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk 2

garyd9 said:
Xda DEVELOPERS. Why would a site called xda DEVELOPERS push development talk off into a corner, while non development talk reigns free?
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk 2
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Adapt with the times as things change.... Change and adjusting is tough at times but if done so correctly its for the better of all those involved...
It is absolutely impossible to have purely 100% code talk in the dev sections. The size of the userbase is way too large for the mod team to regulate that.
Hence the RDs section will be best if you want no nonsense dev talk.
Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk 2

sgt. slaughter said:
Adapt with the times as things change.... Change and adjusting is tough at times but if done so correctly its for the better of all those involved...
...
Hence the RDs section will be best if you want no nonsense dev talk.
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You may be right, but I don't want to consider the possibility that XDA-Developers might become a non-developers forums. If your suggestion is carried out, I'd predict that it'd slowly (but surely) lose it's developer core and become more and more another "android central" or other generic handheld forum.
My reasoning is simple: XDA doesn't give birth to developers - they are born and bred before they get here. However, you're suggesting that they won't have a place to "talk shop" here unless and until they achieve RD status, which I'm assuming involves a certain application and requires that some projects have already been hawked here on XDA. I'm making some assumptions about RD here, but I think it'd be fairly safe to assume that a person can't submit a professional non-XDA resume to get it. As well, you are also always going to have some devs that simply refuse to "apply" for what they consider a "silly title." More especially those that see "ROM cooks" called RD and look the other way.
What is a real developer going to do in that case? Simple: find someplace else to talk shop.
(It's almost comical the way I talk about RD here. I've been doing professional dev for a very long, have given back to the android and ppc communities, and been an XDA member for a long time - but never bothered with RD status here when the program started. So, I honestly don't know what it might involve. I might be wrong about any type of requirements.)
I guess this question moves beyond my suggestions. I've been basing things on a developer-centric forum. That's what XDA-Developers was when I joined, and quite a few FAQ's we point users to indicate that it's still intended to be. If XDA is going to move away from that, then please disregard my suggestions.
Take care
Gary

sgt. slaughter said:
Hence my initial suggestion, that if you want 100% dev talk take up and use the RD forum and discuss in there...
Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk 2
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Not everyone who develops is an RD - and why would you remove the ability for people to learn and share?
garyd9 said:
Xda DEVELOPERS. Why would a site called xda DEVELOPERS push development talk off into a corner, while non development talk reigns free?
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk 2
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Exactly.

It seems obvious that one specific issue that everyone agrees on is that *something* needs to be done to handle "developer discussion." While there are different opinions on the best way to do that, I haven't seen anyone post anything implying that dev's talking shop is a bad thing.
Fallen Spartan, perhaps this thread can branch that particular conversation to a separate thread? That would allow this thread to deal with the other issues without confusion.
Thanks
Gary

garyd9 said:
It seems obvious that one specific issue that everyone agrees on is that *something* needs to be done to handle "developer discussion." While there are different opinions on the best way to do that, I haven't seen anyone post anything implying that dev's talking shop is a bad thing.
Fallen Spartan, perhaps this thread can branch that particular conversation to a separate thread? That would allow this thread to deal with the other issues without confusion.
Thanks
Gary
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For the time being I'm inclined to let the discussion continue in this thread as there isn't much else being discussed here atm. If more idea's/recommendations appear, we can then create a new thread....if needed. Also, if a set way has been agreed on a particular idea/recommendation, I can create a second post updating users so its not lost within the thread

Making room for real developers again
reinbeau said:
Not everyone who develops is an RD - and why would you remove the ability for people to learn and share?
Exactly.
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Hello,
I am one of those professional developers in real life, who don't have the time to play silly points games just to get access to the developer part of a forum. So my "XDA status" is stuck at "noob", but I am really here to look for a place to share technical discussion with other developers.
Looking around (I have been lurking for years now), I think the following improved structure would be a good idea:
In each area (General, OS, device) there should be 4 development subforums rather than the current 1 or 2:
1. Firmware and theme releases.
One thread for each firmware/theme series, hosting download links in the top 3 posts, and support discussions in the rest of the thread.
For instance the Android Samsung Galaxy III "Firmware and theme releases" forum would have exactly one "Cyanogenmod" thread and at most one "Cyanogenmod kang by temasek" thread.
Real cooks can post new threads and create the first two replies in their own thread. Non-noob users can post in existing threads after the 3. post in the thread.
2. Free App releases.
One thread for each free app, hosting download links in the top 3 ports, and support discussions in the rest of the thread.
For instance the Android Free App releases forum would have exactly one "ROM Manager" thread.
Real developers can post new threads and create the first two replies in their own thread. Non-noob users can post in existing threads after the 3. post in the thread.
3. Unreleased experiments
One thread for each unreleased firmware/theme/free app, hosting only discussion of what should go into it, difficulties in making it etc. When released the thread is moved to 1 or 2 as appropriate, at the thread OPs command.
Only real cooks and real developers can post here, there is a limit on new threads per user per month depending on the posters general standing.
4. Developer to Developer
This hosts regular forum style discussion threads where developers for that target (OS/phone) can ask each other questions about technical details for the target, one thread per subject matter, no threads about specific projects. This is the place to discuss stuff like ("Which wceload variants are in which upstream firmwares" in a WM forum or "How are the GPIO pins on the SoC connected to other parts of the phone (in a phone specific forum) or "How does the foo() API work" (in an OS forum)).
Only real cooks and real developers can post here.
Determining access:
Now as to determining the "real cook" and "real developer" status of a user, there could be a quiz and a number of extrinsic tests for each OS. Quiz questions would be multiple choice that a real cook/devel would answer easily, but a poser would get wrong. Other tests could be "prove that you have a developer account on Market/AppStore/OVI/Marketplace" "Show that you can sign an empty sis/cab/etc. with a valid developer certificate" Because getting a new certificate/account for some of the platforms may no longer be possible or may be otherwise restricted, such
tests would just count as N correct quiz answers in determining the pass/fail.

Hangouts VOIP Audio is Broken -- Can We Figure Out Why, and Fix It?

[Okay... I'm posting this because or seems like there's a lot of chatter about this issue but for some reason it doesn't seen like a damned thing had been done about it, and that's not cool in my book. And yes, I'm cross-posting this between Android Development and Original Android Development, because it effects both groups.]
Okay... Having determined that this is something that I can't fix, I submit this logcat to the group:
http://pastebin.com/Av4P7H8Q
That is the result of me opening Hangouts and placing a VOIP call to a contract. The result is the ring-to call sound continues to play after the called party picks up, and they cannot hear any sound I make. Further, hanging up results (eventually) in Hangouts crashing (but the call not actually ending until then).
As you may (or may not know) using Hangouts VOIP calls is BORKED, and it has been for several days. This seems to affect all downstream CM12 ROMs, at least for the LG G3 D851.
Take a look at that logcat... It Is a MESS. Why are cameras being called ajillionty times for making a VOIP call? Why is there no path to the necessary VOIP_MIC component? When you realize that all 8000+ lines of this comprise *only a few seconds* just how...odd...things really are.
It is my understanding that this began after a pile of CM12 commits several days ago, but I'm not certain exactly when. I seem to remember someone is $droyd$'s Illusion ROM thread had the exact date(s).
Surely amongst all the developer brainpower we have amassed here we can figure this out...
So: any ideas?

Allow me to be that guy here.. You posted this in your AOSPA ROM thread stating people should basically know how to follow XDA policy.
CrusherJoe said:
Those of you that have read my AOSPAL 5.0 thread will already know this -- so new folks, this is for you: look at my profile and you'll see I've been a member of XDA for several years, and yet I have a shockingly low post count. In fact, the vast majority of my posts here have been in relation to the AOSPAL build. My search-fu and my Google-fu are strong. I search, read, search some more then read some more until I've learned enough to figure it out. I expect everyone that loads this ROM to have strong search and reading skills, and an IQ in the triple digits. I know that somehow, though, someone is going to post questions in this thread that have been asked and answered somewhere else. Not only will I not answer it, I'll waste valuable development time smacking my forehead and staring at my laptop display in stunned disbelief. Also, it makes the baby Cthulu cry.
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You then proceed to ask a question which is clearly not posted in the right section, whether you believe it's development related or not. I am not doubting whatever development skills you claim to have, and I mean no offense, but regardless of these made up internet titles your post would still be in the wrong area. Furthermore, there is a "Developer Only" area that would be more appropriate. You don't have to be a developer to post in there as long as you have something useful to bring to the table. This post should likely be moved there instead.

@NexusWarrior -- indeed, your logic is flawless. According to the rules, the "development" forums are only for posting release threads, and not for questions related to development. Therefore this post needs to be moved to the appropriate forum.
Would some kindly mod please combine the two threads and move them to the appropriate place? I would appreciate it!
Having said that, I'm going to keep it professional in regards to what appears to be trolling me for some reason I cannot fathom. I have never -- not once -- claimed an "internet title" nor have I sought preferential treatment due to the fact that I have compiled a couple of ROMs. I have never made any statements towards my skills -- or lack thereof -- as a developer. Whatever I have done to draw your ire, @NexusWarrior, I hope that publicly "shaming" me by calling me out on posting in the wrong forum has brought you some satisfaction.

NexusWarrior said:
Allow me to be that guy here.. You posted this in your AOSPA ROM thread stating people should basically know how to follow XDA policy.
You then proceed to ask a question which is clearly not posted in the right section, whether you believe it's development related or not. I am not doubting whatever development skills you claim to have, and I mean no offense, but regardless of these made up internet titles your post would still be in the wrong area. Furthermore, there is a "Developer Only" area that would be more appropriate. You don't have to be a developer to post in there as long as you have something useful to bring to the table. This post should likely be moved there instead.
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This guy is trying to solve an issue that is affecting lots people in this section and you want to give him a hard time. Mind your business and do something to contribute,if not mind your business. Sorry if this also didn't contribute. But Crusherjoe, your work is appreciated. Keep up the great work. Feel free to delete mods if need be

NexusWarrior said:
Allow me to be that guy here.. You posted this in your AOSPA ROM thread stating people should basically know how to follow XDA policy.
You then proceed to ask a question which is clearly not posted in the right section, whether you believe it's development related or not. I am not doubting whatever development skills you claim to have, and I mean no offense, but regardless of these made up internet titles your post would still be in the wrong area. Furthermore, there is a "Developer Only" area that would be more appropriate. You don't have to be a developer to post in there as long as you have something useful to bring to the table. This post should likely be moved there instead.
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Very kind of you to remind a forum contributor about "posting rules" meanwhile hangouts is still broken.....[emoji15]

I've created this post in the "dev only" forum. Please move any discussion on this subject to this thread:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/lg-g3/devs-only/hangouts-voip-calling-broken-figure-fix-t2978600

NexusWarrior said:
Allow me to be that guy here.. You posted this in your AOSPA ROM thread stating people should basically know how to follow XDA policy.
You then proceed to ask a question which is clearly not posted in the right section, whether you believe it's development related or not. I am not doubting whatever development skills you claim to have, and I mean no offense, but regardless of these made up internet titles your post would still be in the wrong area. Furthermore, there is a "Developer Only" area that would be more appropriate. You don't have to be a developer to post in there as long as you have something useful to bring to the table. This post should likely be moved there instead.
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Seriously stfu
...