Develop Bugs

Sensitive material: the xda-developers point of view.

Hi Everybody,
We noticed that there is some confusion when it comes to posting sensitive material on xda-developers.com and mostly about what can and can't be posted.
We would like to clarify our point of view through this post.
Since the start of xda-developers this has always been a site that once in while has some sensitive material online, through the years this site has grown so big it's no longer possible to check every file on our servers or every post on the board, we also feel it wouldn't benefit the community if we did.
However with increased popularity comes an increased amount of legal complaints when sensitive material is found on our servers. Which is the reason why we have been more careful lately. Recently some sensitive material has shown up on the servers and we received legal complaints from companies who have the copyrights for this material, although we all feel this is very interesting and valuable material we cannot risk the future of xda-developers by ignoring the legal requests we receive, therefore this material has been taken offline.
We understand that maintaining the balance between legal and illegal is sometimes confusing and/or difficult but that is unfortunately how it works.
When it comes to posting sensitive material there are a couple suggestions we can make:
- if possible do not post the files on the xda-developers servers.
- use your common sense (if you feel something might not be legal it probably isn't).
- always keep in mind when posting software of any kind, that we will take it offline if there is a legal complaint from the copyright owner.
Warez is in no way accepted and will be removed upon discovery.
I hope this post will serve as a clear and valuable guideline.
Greetz,
Flar
Site admin.
P.s. When you have any questions you can always contact me or one of the moderators.

anyone can contact me also if they have any questions about any files you want to post.. i apparently have no life and spend way to much time on the boards, so you should get a timely response!

I totally agree
It is very important to keep safe a site with so many knowledge and so many resources online. xda-dev and all of its users have done a lot for the community, and I think that if it wasn't for this site, windows mobile devices wouldn't have been so successful.

I agree also. I think you guys do a great job and as members of this family we need to do our part

actually whenever a person types words such as "crack" or "keygen", they should be automatically eliminated or turn into something like "i am a loser".
we've been getting way too much of thieves here recently

I'm still curious about the Dutty Kaiser WM6.1 Rom Link that got removed.
Was that just a link to A rapidshare/megaupload?
Or was that on XDA servers.
Have there been anymore legal complaints about wm6.1 Roms from Kaiser 5.2.19.199 Build now heavily available on many other devices?

need your opinion
hi,
i'm doing this 'directory' for dummies for prophet users.
i made it just because want to make it as easier as it can be to be understand by the beginners.
--> prophet directory for dummies
if you or any other moderators found it is not relevant, do inform PM me.
hoping that this thread can be sticky.
regards..

It's a very tenuous and risky fine line this whole Forum draws when you really look at it.
Every cooked ROM can be looked at as a hack! using proprietory software as its basis.
Every HardSPL can be looked at as a crack! unlocking a device that is specifically locked by a manufacturer.
A keygen is developed as a standalone piece of SW that generates a code that the user decides how he alone will use.
It's all very nice to say HTC "allow" this to happen for developement while not looking anyone directly in the eyes.
Realistically, this site should only contain SW actually and completely written line-by-line by the individual...
We are all guilty in one way or another as everyone here is an accomplice after the fact!

only HTC... ??
An observation ...
This site should be open to other device that HTC.
I had 4 devices HTC, and whenever quality has declined. I believe that the next device will no longer be an HTC.
The manufacturer is rude with its customers (problem of video drivers on Kaiser and Cruise, etc.). HTC does not respond to e-mails. I was a fan of this brand. My next machine will probably be the Samsung SGH-i900 Omnia, which I hope the quality higher than the lasts touchphones HTC ...
It would be really pleasant-XDA Developers focuses on the characteristics of this Samsung Omnia ... and that we produce some new ROM test for this new phone.
But this site is perhaps subsidized by HTC?
Excuse me for my bad English (I only speak french)

well if i may interject myself,
the site should be open to all devices carried that are or will be carried by XDA. Thats the name, and thats how it ought to be. Anachronistic, but elegantly interesting

jeannot61 said:
An observation ...
This site should be open to other device that HTC.
I had 4 devices HTC, and whenever quality has declined. I believe that the next device will no longer be an HTC.
The manufacturer is rude with its customers (problem of video drivers on Kaiser and Cruise, etc.). HTC does not respond to e-mails. I was a fan of this brand. My next machine will probably be the Samsung SGH-i900 Omnia, which I hope the quality higher than the lasts touchphones HTC ...
It would be really pleasant-XDA Developers focuses on the characteristics of this Samsung Omnia ... and that we produce some new ROM test for this new phone.
But this site is perhaps subsidized by HTC?
Excuse me for my bad English (I only speak french)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If HTC Phones where perfect, well there would prolly be less of XDA
But at least Samsung understands what the word Samera Means.
And there is some Unlocking and Cooking going on for a few Non HTC hardware Based phones out there. (Unless i'm wrong and they are HTC hardware base anyway)
But sort of back to the subject.... How about some people selling ROM's made by anyone but themselves on Amazon and whatnot?
That is beyond unsensitive.
If people are doing this. They prolly do this because they can make money of of it.

arent all roms illegal? i mean the phone statment "sorry t be so blatent forgot the actual statment name" but dealing with cellphones the statment, protects people allowing them to return the phones to there original state but not to modify the programing? just wondering probably isnt, hope it was relevant

This thread has aually raised a few questions in my mind.
what is the legality of cooking roms. Obviously cooking an ubuntu mobile rom or an android rom is perfectly legal since that software is under GPL. But my tilt has windows mobile 6 on it with no current upgrade path to winmo 6.1, other than custom cooked roms.
Since at&t has not licsensed winmo6.1 for the tilt yet (or at least hasnt offered it to the public yet) are we basically pirating software it seams likes its the same thing as having a copy of winXP and upgrading with your friends vista disk and a crack.
As far as using SPL cell phone co's have to unlock your phone on request so i dont think theres any issue with that.
I am really looking forward to the new nvidia phones coming out, im hoping they have a big user base like HTC. I must say love my kaiser but its a bit slugish an unfunctional compared to the dell axim i30 i have from 03.

Yes i can imagine as the site has grown it can be harder to keep on top of everything flying around the servers.
Plus with files like you say companies can warn you it it breaches copyright.
I will add again here i am thankful to the mods and members on xda, a very top world website.

Noonski said:
If HTC Phones where perfect, well there would prolly be less of XDA .
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am sorry just thought i would point out the spelling mistake, I'll let you edit it.
I have quite good spelling and see some horrible spelling on some websites, not your little spelling mistake but some really bad stuff. I sometimes do the odd mistake more so when i am very tired.

I'm with boorishid on this one
If someone could make this a tab bit clearer to me I would be very appreciative.
Just don't understand where the line is drawn??

In all of the international conventions/treaties as well as demestic laws from various countries regarding the protection of copy rights and intellectual property rights, EXCEPTIONS are always outlined. And always For Educational & Research Puppose is one of the top exceptions.
As far as I understand, Xda-Devs site is mainly a platform for developers to exchange research information. But seems we are lack of DISCLAIMERS to make it clear on nessecary cases.
Certainly 'common sence' is important for every poster to decide what to do.

What I have found out during my stay here is, well basically everything is allowed except cracks / warez.
Anyway M$ knows about this site and has not complained, that means ....

Can chefs add warez / cracks in their ROMs ???
Some how I feel they can!
Check this:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=531181
Although I don't know whether SPB Mobile shell / coreplayer come as standard package with Hermes or not

Addicted2xda said:
Can chefs add warez / cracks in their ROMs ???
Some how I feel they can!
Check this:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=531181
Although I don't know whether SPB Mobile shell / coreplayer come as standard package with Hermes or not
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No,
I've Removed the links and sent a PM.
Dave

Gotta love Microsoft...BUT

I wouldn't say I love Microsoft, but they do have the market for computer software and I do have quite a bit of their hardware, the MS stearing wheel been a fine bit of kit.
I have used Windows operating systems since Windows 3.1 to the present XP (Vista any day now). I have been using a PocketPC for the past few years with software ranging from Windows Mobile 2003 to the 2005 version, all under licence from the vendor I bourght the phone from.
Whilst the pre packaged software on my PDA is all good and well I have had a much more productive and fun time using my device since I stumbled across XDA-developers.com website, usefull information, people who are in the same boat and development on the software to only increese the usabillity of it.
This is the reason I started this thread.
Everyone that own's a PocketPC/PDA has bourght it. This means that once the device has been bourght you have paid for the Microsoft licence of the installed software.
When you buy a copy of Windows for your home or business computer you have a few differnet ways you can install the software, there are lots of third party bits of software you can install, so you can customize the way your computer is setup.
Microsoft are gonna make xda-developers.com to take down the files that are posted on this site.
I believe that as we have all payed to have the software on our PDA's we have the right to have any version that we want, modified or not. Yes, we shouldn't have versions that haven't been "officially" realeased on our PDA's but even with those there are people who have got the ROM's and made them better.
Microsoft should be quite gratefull that there are people out there to make a bit of software they have developed even better, why should it be any skin of there noses for a bit of software they have allready been paid for!!!
Microsoft can't stop new ROM's been realesed on the internet, if Vista is on all the torrent sites there's no way they are gonna stop a new Windows Mobile ROM appearing.
To conclude...Microsoft should know a good thing when they see it. XDA-Developers.com is that!

Well laid out. I totally agree with you. What M$ doesn't understand is that more roms will start to fly around on un-monitored sites. These sites will lack the support provided at xda-developers and customer complains will sky rocket through the roofs.

Like jack bauer say... "Damn it M$", we need our own Chloe O'brian (a mean betatester)... YOU GUYS!
LONG LIFE XDA-DEVELOPERS!!!

You are right !
M$ have a basic problem in their buisness concept ... not letting people have the freedom that they need and want to upgrade and evolve their OS
And that's why (i believe) people are starting to switch to other OS like OSX or linux.
I am very much afraid that it will also start happening in our mobile decives with symbian and others ...
because although WM5 (and 6) tend to .... crash, hang, or just not work, in my opinion it is the most versitile OS there is .... plenty of programs for it ... and plenty of programmers making new stuff as they go, and that's without including ROM maker which are a whole highly respectable group on their own.
I believe that it is our decision to upgrade, as well as our legal right(for the OS' price is no doubt included in the device's retail price) BUT people must have no right to complain after screwing with their device or worse (bricking it).
And in that respect i agree with M$.
So i propose the middle ground, asking M$ if writing a diclaimer here on XDA that users must go through before downloading and/or upgrading their device will do, and hope that they accept.
if not ...
find a legal loophole, because I for one am not willing to give XDA up just yet !
sorry if i bored you guys, but that's just the way i feel about this whole thing.
UPGRADE ON !
heh.

I have never been one to defend Microsoft, but from reading their letter carefully, it would appear it has more to do with the mobile operators putting pressure on them. Two things I would like to say in response to this.
1) If the mobile operators and manufacturers would employ developers who were even half as quick and resourceful as the developers here, they might actually have sold me a phone that worked properly to start with, unlike my SPV M5000 which was crashing on a daily basis, even with their latest ROM, until I updated it with a ROM from this forum. Had I not been saved by this this amazing forum, I would have demanded a refund, Orange would have lost money and I would have moved to a different company.
2) People who update their phones with ROM images from this forum should know better than to seek support from their mobile operator after having updated their ROM. They should have known that they would not like this.
Now we all have to suffer.

They'll have to face't!
columbo said:
I have never been one to defend Microsoft, but from reading their letter carefully, it would appear it has more to do with the mobile operators putting pressure on them. Two things I would like to say in response to this.
1) If the mobile operators and manufacturers would employ developers who were even half as quick and resourceful as the developers here, they might actually have sold me a phone that worked properly to start with, unlike my SPV M5000 which was crashing on a daily basis, even with their latest ROM, until I updated it with a ROM from this forum. Had I not been saved by this this amazing forum, I would have demanded a refund, Orange would have lost money and I would have moved to a different company.
2) People who update their phones with ROM images from this forum should know better than to seek support from their mobile operator after having updated their ROM. They should have known that they would not like this.
Now we all have to suffer.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have never gone to my mobile operator nor the phone support service center! I have not a single doubt in my mind that I know better than the "technician" sitting behind his desk claiming to fix my PDA whenever it hicks up!
This forum and only THIS FORUM, helped 100K of people to fix their own PDAs and even created a wide knowledge to those beginners who knew nada about roms or tweaking pdas!
But sorry to say that OS developers have gone too far this time and as it was rightly said, the tighter and tougher they become the more roms ther will be out there even more than they can imagine, since it is a challenge they've started, they'll have to face't.

columbo said:
I have never been one to defend Microsoft, but from reading their letter carefully, it would appear it has more to do with the mobile operators putting pressure on them.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think that, in this case, M$ is hiding itself behind the mobile operators. Bit too easy, ain't it...

In the end
In the end it all comes down to this:
We ALL get F*CKED in the (*) by Bill Gates and his friends

bastiaanoskam said:
In the end it all comes down to this:
We ALL get F*CKED in the (*) by Bill Gates and his friends
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What an amazingly constructive comment you made there...... I would say that this is just a part of life and there is nothing we can do about it. To be honest we all knew this course of action was inevitable.
This action is corporate companies trying to protect there product - can you really blame them for that....... Money makes the world go round and all that...

columbo said:
1) If the mobile operators and manufacturers would employ developers who were even half as quick and resourceful as the developers here, they might actually have sold me a phone that worked properly to start with...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well why don't they employ US
I am unemployed atm...

Forum request: LG KS20

Hi Admins,
Could you please add a forum section with LG KS20?
Many Thanks!

Who's the Manufacturer of the LG device. Is it HTC? No? Then I don't see that happening.

JimmyMcGee said:
Who's the Manufacturer of the LG device. Is it HTC? No? Then I don't see that happening.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
hahaha...owned

Meanwhile i'd like to have a LG KS20 Section too. More and more people seem to have that device...

Yes would be great to have a KS20 section, count me in

Read the first reply!
Who's the Manufacturer of the LG device. Is it HTC? No? Then I don't see that happening.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

this is very funny...does noone get the point....this is 100th request for some phones...people are crazy
and by the way there is a siemens on the forum....siemens ofcourse isn't htc,neither is atom...but they are ok...we got used to them and they are ppc's

farukb said:
this is very funny...does noone get the point....this is 100th request for some phones...people are crazy
and by the way there is a siemens on the forum....siemens ofcourse isn't htc,neither is atom...but they are ok...we got used to them and they are ppc's
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The Siemens was made by HTC (same as some HP devices, and the X1) so it has very similar IPL/SPL code.
The Atom was because there was some confusion over who was making it, but, that is the exception, not the rule.

With all the respect I have for "xda" developers community, what's the purpose of refusing a new forum section based on the brand when you're a forum that grew up enough to become a reference in ppc developement ? Sentences like "Is it HTC? No? Then I don't see that happening." are either trolling (if that's the case, well done ), or belong to another time in another place. To me it sounds a little like "hey you lg niggas, we accept you in our htc bus, but just stand in the back".
I thought we were here to share knowledge to serve the whole ppc community. If I was an admin, I would consider making sections when enough requests (but, I'm not admin and moreover, may be there are not enough now, I can't say) (well, to be honest, I pretty agree that there's not so much ks20 threads).
What I know is that ks20 hardware is pretty similar to kaiser's one (up to the point that older versions of kaiser's android booted on ks20), that with a lot of work we finally managed to build tools to extract rom files (I don't speak about batch files, but something similar to nbinfo/nbsplit/nbmerge), that enabled us to build a kitchen, for a part thanks to xda community, and that it would serve ks20 community for more simplicity to regroup them.
If you think that there's not enough demand to do it, I've got absolutely no problem with that and I totally understand it, but please don't use htc arguments or else you'll see that one day, the brand-segregated minority will revolt, compose a call pointing their phone towards htc users and turn them all out into pop-corn

spocky12 said:
With all the respect I have for "xda" developers community, what's the purpose of refusing a new forum section based on the brand when you're a forum that grew up enough to become a reference in ppc developement ? Sentences like "Is it HTC? No? Then I don't see that happening." are either trolling (if that's the case, well done ), or belong to another time in another place. To me it sounds a little like "hey you lg niggas, we accept you in our htc bus, but just stand in the back".
I thought we were here to share knowledge to serve the whole ppc community. If I was an admin, I would consider making sections when enough requests (but, I'm not admin and moreover, may be there are not enough now, I can't say) (well, to be honest, I pretty agree that there's not so much ks20 threads).
What I know is that ks20 hardware is pretty similar to kaiser's one (up to the point that older versions of kaiser's android booted on ks20), that with a lot of work we finally managed to build tools to extract rom files (I don't speak about batch files, but something similar to nbinfo/nbsplit/nbmerge), that enabled us to build a kitchen, for a part thanks to xda community, and that it would serve ks20 community for more simplicity to regroup them.
If you think that there's not enough demand to do it, I've got absolutely no problem with that and I totally understand it, but please don't use htc arguments or else you'll see that one day, the brand-segregated minority will revolt, compose a call pointing their phone towards htc users and turn them all out into pop-corn
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No I'm not a Troll, I moved out from under my bridge long ago.
I'm reiterating what I've seen spoken by the mod numerous times.
The simple fact is not that we hate or a "phonecist" towards LG. Its a matter of Drawing a line in the sand to help with Administration, Server Load and Bandwidth Usage Issues.
If we start adding none HTC phones, we will have a harder time keeping the noobs calm and the spammers away. It will require and even bigger server with even more bandwidth and that cost more money.
We all know the founders really aren't making money of this venture so since its their bank accounts that have to cover the costs if Donation, Store and Ad revenue don't. So they can say only HTC device if they please.
So don't play the "race card." You look silly. If The founders don't want to add non HTC devices they don't have to, and any amount of wishing and asking and complaining will not change that.
But I bet you could find/make a place like XDA for LG or Samsung.

I totally understand your point and don't blame the admins, they do what they want with their forums. It's just that when you start adding exceptions, you open a breach and then it's difficult to explain why you do this and not that.
I hope my post was not taken seriously (I think I've put enough smileys to show it was not written that way).
As to make/join another forum, problem here with ks20 is that it's the only Windows Mobile device from lg, so in a way, we're far closer to xda community than classic lg mobile community. After all, we're just lost orphans begging for a place in this world

spocky12 said:
I totally understand your point and don't blame the admins, they do what they want with their forums. It's just that when you start adding exceptions, you open a breach and then it's difficult to explain why you do this and not that.
I hope my post was not taken seriously (I think I've put enough smileys to show it was not written that way).
As to make/join another forum, problem here with ks20 is that it's the only Windows Mobile device from lg, so in a way, we're far closer to xda community than classic lg mobile community. After all, we're just lost orphans begging for a place in this world
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Right Which is why they don't allow any exceptions.
I wasn't singling you out, just posting same reasons why you won't see LG devices here soon, or Samsung for that matter.
Well what you could do is, call HTC and LG and have one "acquire" the other, then all would be happy because the admins could make a LG KS20 forum.

I don't think it's just that it's LG.
The T-Mobile Shadow is HTC though they still won't make us a forum.

KEROLiUKAS said:
I don't think it's just that it's LG.
The T-Mobile Shadow is HTC though they still won't make us a forum.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Have you asked? And Said Please?

JimmyMcGee said:
Have you asked? And Said Please?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Actually...Never mind it's there, but not under smartphones, it's under the PPC with 3 sections. that's why i never saw it.

I've got a KS20 as well.
LG has released their 2nd Windows Mobile based device, the Prada II.
Hopefully if they keep going we'll get an LG forum up and running soon!

yeah there will never be a lg forum, this site is htc only. so there will nenver be any non htc devices here
when i got my omnia i asked and they said no, and eventually accepted that. i then wen on to create my own forum similar to this one but it will include all windows moblie devices
its in my signature below. there is already a lg ks20 forum with unlocking details and a few roms for it in the roms section
ill look forward to seeing you there

lasertip said:
I've got a KS20 as well.
LG has released their 2nd Windows Mobile based device, the Prada II.
Hopefully if they keep going we'll get an LG forum up and running soon!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
A forum starts with one person who is enthusiastic about their phone. How do you think this forum got started? Twenty thousand people all got together and decided to make a forum that grew into 2 million ? No it started with I'm sure, one enterprising knowledgeable person and a garage server.
Short version ? Servers are cheap, bandwidth comes from donations, if you think that there are so many interested people, then have at it. I don't think that trying to ( bully ? ) your way into an avowed HTC forum is the way. Others have done it themselves.
http://www.lg-vu.com/
http://www.mygreatphone.com/forum/lg-forum/
And many more for LG phones.Just look for them. It is the enthusiasm of the people that make a great forum, not hijacking an already great forum for your own personal use

Those forms are not as well populated as the Chinese LG forum (www.52lg.com). Main disadvantage of it is that the released roms are all in Chinese.

Ok...With all that said...who wants to put together an LG PPC forum?

Poor community spirit among XDA cooks

I have noticed very poor community spirit amond many man cooks on XDA. For me, a community is about helping each other, and improving each others accomplishments. Many times, when even just trying to extract some manila files from a rom, or even decompilng a carrier rom, it just doesnt work. I presume this is because some cooks around here believe they are gods gift to this board (not community) because they lock roms. I can understand if you lock a program youi custom build, some low level mods, etc, but come on, a carrier rom.
I wanna thanks those who dont partake in this childish acts. If parts are used, then yeah of course the original cook deserves credit, and shall always be given credit. But people always ask why I dont post my roms here, this is why.

A similar topic has already been discussed here

ghettofreeryder said:
I have noticed very poor community spirit amond many man cooks on XDA. For me, a community is about helping each other, and improving each others accomplishments. Many times, when even just trying to extract some manila files from a rom, or even decompilng a carrier rom, it just doesnt work. I presume this is because some cooks around here believe they are gods gift to this board (not community) because they lock roms. I can understand if you lock a program youi custom build, some low level mods, etc, but come on, a carrier rom.
I wanna thanks those who dont partake in this childish acts. If parts are used, then yeah of course the original cook deserves credit, and shall always be given credit. But people always ask why I dont post my roms here, this is why.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Totally agree, and well said Ghetto!
You'll always find my ROMs unlocked.

Juicy47 said:
Totally agree, and well said Ghetto!
You'll always find my ROMs unlocked.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree as well.
I can see it from the cooks point of view in some cases... but common, you know how hard getting a sys and os can be if every rom you find that you may be able to get it from is locked. Getting the HTC rom updates are hard to find third party, and require a gsm handset serial number to download from htc.... which some of us dont have. so, i know my self have had difficulties finding stuff that i used to once be able to find very easily. Im usually pretty quiet here im not here to steal any ones glory some times all we want is a package or a newer camera app ect...

It is all about EGOs. I do not cook but am a software designer for a few decades.
If I went into ROM cooking and somebody took my ROM, added a few things- generally improved it and posted it under his/her name- fair play to them. It would be ideal if they added credits.
I can learn from the successfully modded ROMs some new tricks. If they locked the pimped up code, I would go furious since this is not on the equal terms.
Both things i.e. the credits and locking of ROMs can be dealt with by the moderators of this server but there is either a very little will to do so or the perceived benefits of this approach are too low to outweigh the risks (i.e. developers abandoning this forum)
Strangely most people here would be vivid advocates of the Open Source model yet the first thing which gets promoted is a closed source approach.
I personally believe that it would be a bit of pain to get the unlocked ROM requirement going plus would need more work on the policing side but in the long run it would benefit us all.

You guys make problems out of nothing.
THERE ARE a lot of open roms.
So ok. BUt now there is a cook that wants to present his locked rom.
Why not let him if he wants? Let them choose themselves. JUst don't download it, if its not good for you then leave it instead of continously making points in these topics.

What you will find is that the ROM is undumpable because the rgu and dsm files have been erased and compressed into a single package, thus removing around 200 files from the \Windows directory on your device, less files in \Windows means a faster responce from the file system.
Notice how accessing \Windows takes a longer time than other folders?
Most of the time this is the reason behind removing those files...not to protect a ROM, however we all know there are a minority of users who will palm stuff off as thier own creation which is detremental to the people who do the real work...sure if somebody wants help then they will get it from the majority.....its not about EGO at all.
Do you think olipro charges for his unlocker because of EGO? NO! Its because hes protecting his interests and also deserves recognition for his countless hours of hard work.

They spend their own valuable time making the ROMs so they can do as they please, it's your choice whether or not you install it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I know only two chefs here in the Diamond section protect their ROMs. The chefs who leave their ROMs open are in clear majority.
So, the community spirit seems pretty good to me.

His ROMs are locked, mine are open. Great spirit.

I don't cook roms, but as a linux user I care about Open Source and alike. So I'll post my meaningless 2 cents
Seems like senior members are for locked roms and charging for services, while members and junior members stand on the other side?
For the normal rom user, it doesn't really matter if the rom is locked or not, as long as roms are released. In my opinion though, releasing the roms under a GPL(-ish?) licence would make sure the original cook get the credits. Giving other cooks the possibility to look under the hood on your room, can in fact make it a better rom.
Do you think olipro charges for his unlocker because of EGO? NO! Its because hes protecting his interests and also deserves recognition for his countless hours of hard work
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Now this, I strongly disagree on. IMO he would get much more respect if he shared his knowledge freely. There are countless examples of that in the world of GNU/Linux.
I think most ppl using XDA forums expect it to work like a open source community, and when they find out the cooks are protecting their roms and charging for services, they get a dissapointed, and need to whine a little.
Bottom line is, the cooks are free to do whatever they want with their roms. You get to use them freely on your device. You are free to support the cooks you want, so if you don't like locked roms etc...then use a rom from a cook that doesn't lock it.

His ROMs are locked, mine are open. Great spirit.
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panosha just sh.. up and dont make me talk here. your only a repacker and stealer. swtos will confirm this. im also a cooker who had the idea leaving cooked roms unlocked. but after seeing people like panosha repack things call it shine on and release it as a own work i lost that philosophie very fast.
his greek roms are partly all stolen by swtos.
my 2 cent
greetings go out to the real cookers like dutty swift swtos and others...

alphazero said:
panosha just sh.. up and dont make me talk here. your only a repacker and stealer. swtos will confirm this. im also a cooker who had the idea leaving cooked roms unlocked. but after seeing people like panosha repack things call it shine on and release it as a own work i lost that philosophie very fast.
his greek roms are partly all stolen by swtos.
my 2 cent
greetings go out to the real cookers like dutty swift swtos and others...
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Well, if you GPL'd it, and he broke the GPL, you could most likely ask the mods to remove his posts/account/rom from this and other forums.

Alpha, let it be then, why would you care anyway? However, to keep the honour to yourself, don't show PM's
About this Open Source Philosophy:
Open Source is fun and a way to get some work done for specific problems.
I am totally no fighter for Open Source when it comes to developping good applications. Good work needs to get PAYED. One needs to take their TIME to work on it to make it good. Time needs INCOME, one must eat too you know.
I am 100% confident that FREE software will never have the quality of commercial variants, just for that reason.
With Linux the OS is free, but the better distributions are commercial also, and in one or other way 'locked'. Just as with good roms here Only here, we do not have to pay for them. Yet.
Go Open Source, but don't go FREE. Trigger people to get best out of them. Reward them. And let them keep identity.

Riel said:
Alpha, let it be then, why would you care anyway? However, to keep the honour to yourself, don't show PM's
About this Open Source Philosophy:
Open Source is fun and a way to get some work done for specific problems.
I am totally no fighter for Open Source when it comes to developping good applications. Good work needs to get PAYED. One needs to take their TIME to work on it to make it good. Time needs INCOME, one must eat too you know.
I am 100% confident that FREE software will never have the quality of commercial variants, just for that reason.
With Linux the OS is free, but the better distributions are commercial also, and in one or other way 'locked'. Just as with good roms here Only here, we do not have to pay for them. Yet.
Go Open Source, but don't go FREE. Trigger people to get best out of them. Reward them. And let them keep identity.
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Ok, lol! you have no idea have you. The BEST distros out there are free! Gentoo! Slack! Debian! C'mon dude
Anyways, yeah, Open Source != free per definition

Riel said:
Alpha, let it be then, why would you care anyway? However, to keep the honour to yourself, don't show PM's
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i would and will never show a private message i recieve here on public.
even if i could choose of hundreds =)
by the way panosha if you feel better i can tell you nearly every chef had that pm of me for wildberry.

Why do the moderators let Aplhazero persist with his insulting posts again and again totally unchecked?? Now he's making an as-yet unfounded allegation against another chef who from what I have seen is very helpful around here. Yet still nothing is done!
I find this bizzare considering Mods are so quick to react and stamp down on so called 'pointless' threads which are far less damaging imho.
Alpha needs to check his ego and stop treating people like they are beneath him.

i have a question, for the people who blame others for stealing and re-releasing under there own work..... how can you tell? i mean, if everything is as openly available as most of the guys seem to think it is. then couldn't they have just got all there stuff from the same source? or is it its not openly available, and the only place they could find it is your rom so you know they have stolen it? Stealing with the intent to take credit for some one elses hard work is not a good thing. but i do believe in sharing.
but if no one shares, that leaves little other options? as time goes by, it looks like things are slowly getting a little bit more closed, pretty soon nothing will be shared. and thats when i worry the community will take a crushing blow.

zaphyr said:
Well, if you GPL'd it, and he broke the GPL, you could most likely ask the mods to remove his posts/account/rom from this and other forums.
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you cant GPL something that was basted on stolen software i think.
the base os, sys, anything taken from an HTC rom is stolen. Microsoft doesn't just hand out new sys and os files. and HTC doesn't call us all up when a new oem package is out on a device.
thats just the point i dont get. it the guys who consider them selves real cooks stole it from some where els. why ware they worries about some one stealing a package from them. i can understand if some one took there rom and just changed the version on it and re released it but, that not the idea of most of us ere. and if you can prove some one is a thief expose him to his followers if you can prove it. proof is key to me before pointing the finger.

Cheerz
Nice to read this *****fight. Some are gentleman and some are not. @the end we are all thieves.

Regarding Rights To OUR Intellectual Property Here

In light of what I considered to be a couple of very disturbing developments, I think at this point, a dialogue/debate needs to be opened on what rights/copyrights a contributor has on the intellectual material he/she posts here.
Sakajati was abruptly censored when he suggested that future roms may be administered through a tool bar and not administered through this site.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=3288089&postcount=10332
And the way that BeyondInvisible was driven off this site by the " takers " and not supported by this site. ( the people that stole his new pay/per icons and published them for free, should have been banned). http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=2798052#post2798052 because he dared suggest that it might be time for all the takers to pony up.
When your work becomes widely successful ala; olinex, jockyw, sakajati, MobileMatt, JCKOTZE, Schap, in the kaiser forums, at what point does toiling around in poverty while you work hard for others for free, become less attractive than selling your work?
Who now owns your work , you, XDA, is it copyrighted? When you decide to take it private what ownership rights does XDA retain?
If you request that XDA remove your work, can they leave an archive of it?
I love this site it is the greatest resource on the net for PDA's but I think these subjects could use a good going over by the Mods and the membership.
Dennis

Removing SJ's toolbar was NOT censorship, regardless of how you're trying to spin it. We received several complaints from users who don't feel comfortable being required to install a toolbar just to use their favorite ROM... ask any Mod, we all get the emails. The action I took (editing the toolbar links) is the most benign available to Moderators. I could have closed the thread, and moved it to a Mod-only section while the investigation/discussion took place. Instead, I opted to merely edit out the download links.
There is no justification for requiring users to install a toolbar into Internet Explorer (or any other browser in the Windows environment) just so they can have access to a Chef's ROMs.
Now while a decision has not yet been made, I can confidently say that if SJ had promoted his toolbar as a tool to help all users of his ROMs get the latest "breaking" new on development, and NOT required it in order to obtain the password required for flashing, then we [most likely] would have allowed the toolbar to stay linked on XDA.

I think part of the problem here is that many seem to think that they are entitled to what the chefs produce for nothing. The hours spent porting and testing should count for something but for many it is just expected. I for one have no problem contributing what I can when I'm able. It is too bad that more don't do this.
Kirby

Intellectual property laws protect the inventor/creator rights of ownership to their intellectual property in cyber media. So there is no fear but a concern for any coder that his or her work marketing could be abused or it could be stolen. That is the risk one takes without his or her choice when they share their creations with others.
I also read XDA rules, and it clearly states that soliciting anything for money is prohibited. many cooks are on the border line of asking for money rather encouraging donation for sharing the fruit of their work with others. I do not have a problem with that and believe the majority here share my sentiment. I have a problem however with someone begging for donation without any substantiating efforts, invention or creation to merit the donation solicitation. That being said, I believe SJ was a true gentleman in all of his posts and never infringed on callus donation request; having a tool bar that he feels if XDA was out ( and it was out few times in the past month) as an optional site but not alternative support site that can be accessed where members can help each other is not a bad idea.
We seem to forget sometimes that XDA site was created to help one developer another achieve excellence in the field of e-communication.
so again, I have no problem with SJ promoting his tool bar as long as it is not used to ransom donation for solving issues and i am sure like I said earlier, this is NOT SJ's intention.

NotATreoFan said:
Removing SJ's toolbar was NOT censorship, regardless of how you're trying to spin it. We received several complaints from users who don't feel comfortable being required to install a toolbar just to use their favorite ROM...
There is no justification for requiring users to install a toolbar into Internet Explorer (or any other browser in the Windows environment) just so they can have access to a Chef's ROMs.
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That was one of my major points, there " was " no requirement . because there " was no rom ". You struck preemptively to something that had not happened yet, because it might happen in the future. You squashed his right to promote a private project , as many many people do here, because a few ungrateful people complained that in the future they might have to obtain the rom it SJ's way.
Had he stated that the next rom would be available only by joining his website, would you have shut him down?
My question is, at what point does a chef have the right to take his work private, and how , without any interference from this site.
Believe me, I am not trying to "spin " anything against anyone, I have a great deal of respect for you and all you have done for this forum ( we miss your input in the Kaiser world ) I just thought that it was a heavy handed response ( and yes censorship ) to something that hadn't even happened yet.
A simple PM could have alieviated the situation for the time being, while the Mods figured it out. Not a head on erase everything, assault SJ's right to promote his work and wares.
And I would say again, that the integrity of this site depends on people to share openly and honestly without fear of unjustified reprisal, SJ has said that he will not for the time being, take any new roms private. I think that is enough for all his links to be restored. If not, what other definitions of censorship do you have ?
JimmyMcGee said:
Your opinion is respected. But the appearance was that he WAS requiring people to use the Toolbar to get the Password for the ROM.
Sakajati can do what ever he wants with his ROM, if he chooses to require the Toolbar, that's his choice. If XDA, the people who maintain and provide some presence for his ROM here say that's not in the spirit of the community, then he can release the ROMs on his website soley.
Basically you have to follow certain rules to post your stuff on SourceForge, so think of at as the same thing.
You seem to be the only one with a problem. sakajati is a great guy and is being cooperative in the investigation.
There is written law and common law. This falls more into to "Common Law" area, which is why I said it was a Grey area.
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I brought this over from the Hyperdragon thread to here, to discuss.
I just want everyone to know, this has more to do with the big picture than it has to do with sakajati. This has nothing to do with NATF or with jimmy and I am probably not the only one who has a problem with the way it was handled. I am just the one with the big mouth. And we all know that sakajati would never say a word or give anything less than his full cooperation.
I just want someone to tell me not just for SJ, but for the good of the whole community and as a precedent for future complaints of this type, why SJ couldn't have been shot a PM asking what his intentions were, and if they approached a grey area, he could have been informed and he would have cooperated. End of any problem. It is not like there was any urgency, as I said before, there was no requirement because there was no rom.
And if people did over react then it is good for everyone to get a dialogue started. That is what this site is all about.
Thanks guys for doing a great job !

denco7 said:
That was one of my major points, there " was " no requirement . because there " was no rom ". You struck preemptively to something that had not happened yet, because it might happen in the future. You squashed his right to promote a private project , as many many people do here, because a few ungrateful people complained that in the future they might have to obtain the rom it SJ's way.
Had he stated that the next rom would be available only by joining his website, would you have shut him down?
My question is, at what point does a chef have the right to take his work private, and how , without any interference from this site.
Believe me, I am not trying to "spin " anything against anyone, I have a great deal of respect for you and all you have done for this forum ( we miss your input in the Kaiser world ) I just thought that it was a heavy handed response ( and yes censorship ) to something that hadn't even happened yet.
A simple PM could have alieviated the situation for the time being, while the Mods figured it out. Not a head on erase everything, assault SJ's right to promote his work and wares.
And I would say again, that the integrity of this site depends on people to share openly and honestly without fear of unjustified reprisal, SJ has said that he will not for the time being, take any new roms private. I think that is enough for all his links to be restored. If not, what other definitions of censorship do you have ?
I brought this over from the Hyperdragon thread to here, to discuss.
I just want everyone to know, this has more to do with the big picture than it has to do with sakajati. This has nothing to do with NATF or with jimmy and I am probably not the only one who has a problem with the way it was handled. I am just the one with the big mouth. And we all know that sakajati would never say a word or give anything less than his full cooperation.
I just want someone to tell me not just for SJ, but for the good of the whole community and as a precedent for future complaints of this type, why SJ couldn't have been shot a PM asking what his intentions were, and if they approached a grey area, he could have been informed and he would have cooperated. End of any problem. It is not like there was any urgency, as I said before, there was no requirement because there was no rom.
And if people did over react then it is good for everyone to get a dialogue started. That is what this site is all about.
Thanks guys for doing a great job !
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My Friend read this...
sakajati said:
Just uploaded the cab to download center. It will add [Slide down for call functions] feature.
*** Please all of you install my toolbar [mod edit: link removed], this is the tool that will keep you updated and you will receive alert/message via the toolbar for news and announcements regularly from me. If you're using HyperDragon ROMs, you have to install it since the next rom release will be password protected and you'll get the password only via this toolbar . No adware, spyware, crapware, underware, read the Toolbar Privacy [mod edit: link removed]for details.***
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Read the Green Parts. The general consensus is IF sakajati REQUIRES people to use the Toolbar to use his ROMs, he is no longer contributing to the XDA ROM Community.
sakajati is ALLOWED and not censored to require this if he so chooses. However the ramifications are, that he would no longer be allowed to advertise his ROM here.
The "common law" rule is, if you post a ROM on XDA, you are contributing to the community and the ROM shall have NO STRINGS attached. No requirement to Give Money, no requirement to have a toolbar installed.
If sakajati wishes to offer his toolbar as a way to stay in "constant contact" with him, then I don't see a problem. But the release of the ROM shall not be contingent on the toolbar. At least not while it is advertised on XDA.
And P.S. lets not get into calling ROMs Intellectual Property, because honestly, ROMs are Microsoft's I.P. All chefs do is tweak, improve and skin ROMs. And I don't mean to take anything away from chefs awesome work by saying that. So saying sakajati's ROM is his I.P. is like saying you taking you Toyota Celica, painting it Pink with Green Racing strips and boring out the engine, makes that car your I.P.
But as NATF has said, no final desicsion has been made, I only type this reply to give full disclosure, to show that our intentions are not to censor.
Thanks.

JimmyMcGee said:
If sakajati wishes to offer his toolbar as a way to stay in "constant contact" with him, then I don't see a problem. But the release of the ROM shall not be contingent on the toolbar. At least not while it is advertised on XDA.
But as NATF has said, no final decision has been made, I only type this reply to give full disclosure, to show that our intentions are not to censor.
Thanks.
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Since this has all been put to rest, I just have some final thoughts and then I'll shut up.
It was never about XDA's/Mod's disapproval as to what he intended to do, you all are entrusted with the success and smooth running of this site and have every right to administer this site as you see fit, (as I have every right to question why ) And it was not really about SJ, he was just the vehicle of my overall concern about creative people leaving this site because of real and perceived ( do it our way or get out ) disagreements.
I guess I just wanted to know, if people decided to take their projects private,such as a new rom, would they still be welcome here to support older projects or develop new projects here ( that fell within XDA guildlines ) and while supporting their projects, could they in a subtle non-commercial way, direct people to private/financially enhancing projects.
And of course I still object to the way it was handled, that sort of, " we are taking it all down until we decide " way of doing it, is something that happens to noobs that don't know any better. Not to someone who has done as much for, and contributed so much to the Kaiser community as sakajati has done.
The Mods always preach, " if you have a dispute with another member, take it to PM, " Unfortunately this great advise wasn't followed, and I am glad that SJ was not offended by this and did not pack up his toys and go home ( like unfortunately other members have done )
And I am sorry if " I " have offended anyone, that was not my intention. I love this site and think that discussions like this benefit the longevity of this site. I am glad everything has been resolved and I will shut up and go away now
Oh yeah ........one more thing
And P.S. lets not get into calling ROMs Intellectual Property, because honestly, ROMs are Microsoft's I.P. All chefs do is tweak, improve and skin ROMs. And I don't mean to take anything away from chefs awesome work by saying that. So saying sakajati's ROM is his I.P. is like saying you taking you Toyota Celica, painting it Pink with Green Racing strips and boring out the engine, makes that car your I.P.
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Tell that to Chip Foose and Orange County Choppers. They take other people's parts, design and tweak and create masterpieces worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. Your telling me a Foose Design isn't intellectual property?

denco7 said:
The Mods always preach, " if you have a dispute with another member, take it to PM, " Unfortunately this great advise wasn't followed, and I am glad that SJ was not offended by this and did not pack up his toys and go home ( like unfortunately other members have done )
And I am sorry if " I " have offended anyone, that was not my intention. I love this site and think that discussions like this benefit the longevity of this site. I am glad everything has been resolved and I will shut up and go away now
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This is not an issue of personal disagreement, it is a violation of our rules of operation. When we see questionable activity, we will always take the action of stopping the activity, contacting the OP, and trying to resolve it quickly. I am sure SJ understands this as well as anyone here that it was nothing personal, and simply just S.O.P. around here. It's a lot easier to take down a problem for a couple days, and then let it back up with an apology than it is to remove it after we've debated.
As for you question about prior contributions, of course anyone is welcome to support anything that they have and continue to offer that is in compliance with our rules here. Nothing even stops a user from selling some stuff, and giving others away. It's just that they can't post the stuff they're selling here, just the donation ware.

IP
I have just a couple points. The Phoenix team has a separate website we use for tracking bugs and other discussion so we don't clutter up this site. However our intent is to foster creativity, open communication and cooperation among users and chefs which we hope results in better products for the users of this site. So don't always think a private website like ours or SJ's is a bad thing.
However, I would like to point out what was only stated one time in the thread--the guts of these roms are the ip of microsoft and htc. Now as chef's we find other bits and pieces that are added--and these are the ip of their creators. Sometimes we contribute our own ip--like skins, icons and very specific know how to get the roms to help our devices perform at peak efficiency. But anyone who would try to take a rom private and sell it, would have some major issues without first getting license to do so from MS, HTC and those other people who own the other intellectual property.
There are many examples of apps that were developed by talented people here that have gone commercial. Those apps are still discussed and linked to here because they all have trial periods. There is nothing wrong with commercializing your own ip..The wrong comes when you commercialize ip that you don't own or haven't properly license.
So let's continue a great tradition of creativity. I believe that this site is the primary reason that HTC and microsoft keep trying to make a better operating system. This site is where many ideas come from. This site gives the OS life beyond the normal experience.

denco7 said:
(snip)
Oh yeah ........one more thing
Tell that to Chip Foose and Orange County Choppers. They take other people's parts, design and tweak and create masterpieces worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. Your telling me a Foose Design isn't intellectual property?
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Pfft Those Posers

some confused thinking here -
A cook can ask for a contribution for his time but there is no way he can claim that a cooked rom is his IPR because it's belongs to someone else start with - no licence to modify has been granted!
Now creating programs from scratch, that's a different issue and how they want to deal with payment is upto them.

my theory is whoever created the forum and then got ppl to volounter to mantain it
ITS THERE FORUM
Its really up to them what they want to do