Related
Attention NOOBS. I'm becoming less patient with your posts that include whining and redundancy. This forum isn't here to provide you with all the comforts of your carrier. These roms and installing them is for people who are advanced users of WM. If you need your device for work or if you're new to PocketPCs this isn't the place for you. These roms aren't for you so please stick to your carriers’ rom.
The chefs of these roms aren't here to help you setup your device and to solve all of your issues. If you have issues read, search and fix them. The research is part of the fun...finding fixes is part of the fun. Finding new ways to configure your device and setups is FUN. By asking first you're not participating in the best part of the forum. Questions like...my keyboard is wrong and it doesn't look different or I can't connect to the internet are redundant. Those questions have been asked, answered and fixed OVER-AND-OVER AGAIN....WHY KEEP ASKING?
I'm not anti-noob. I was a noob once and I am still a noob in many ways. I also know that there are some good noobs in the forum. But I'm tired of taking the time to read the threads for critical information and coming across posts for how to install a new theme or where did the backlight on my keyboard go. That's where your user manual or the HTC website comes in. For Cingular people you have a great resource over @ the Cingular forums.
This is a community of like minded technical individuals. This is not HTC tech support or your carriers support. No one here owes you ANYTHING. You install a rom it's on you. If you can't take the responsibility then don't install the rom. It's pretty simple really.
I just had to get that off my chest. I'm sick and cranky but that only played a small role.
Again TIP YOUR CHEF!!!!! and donate to XDA. To all of you that make this a interactive vibrant technical-minded environment THANK YOU!
When I posted this the first time I was trying to prevent what has eventually happened. We've lost one of our genius rom Chefs. So...thanks guys!
Admins....
As for fixing the "noob" issue...I think there is one pretty good solution.
I think the only way to fix such an issue is to either restrict new users from they'll use that period of time to read. Because if they choose to install a rom and they know they can't post a question they'll probably be more apt to read.
I agree with Xultar that a minimum registration period before posting should be enforced, and any BLATANT stupidity should reset the period.
This seems like the best idea. Someone mentioned having a sub forum only accessible by experienced members. Denying read access to the masses however would make this a very exclusive club, which I do feel strongly about.
I am still a relative noob, but found this site and was reading away well before getting my first WM device. It was partly this site that gave me the confidence to try such a device instead of a dumb phone. If I had looked around and seen only the stupid questions, with an inaccessible sub forum that I could not read, then I would have moved on elsewhere and not discovered all the things I have.
I guess it all depends what the key developers here want to achieve. If it is an exclusive club where everyone is a technical whiz then OK I am screwed and will miss this forum. That decision is however entirely theirs to make and no one has the right to tell them what they should or should not do or judge them in any way.
Along with many who do try to avoid asking stupid questions and do try and RTFW first, I can only hope that they choose to try and spread the word so to speak - don't mean to sound all preachy and religious - and that a way can be found to reduce the hassle they get from morons.
I remember seeing one of Sleuth's posts - he said he took no responsibility if anyone chose to use that bit of software and if you bricked your phone it was on you and hard luck. He also added that if that did happen, he would however do his best to help fix any issues. Exactly what I wanted - I knew the risk and choice was mine, but knowing that someone with a lot of knowledge would try and help was very reassuring.
Anyway, thanks to all the deveopers who have helped with the Hermes forum, and to anyone who wants to flame me, just please keep it civil. (There has been rather too much rudeness recently, as tensions seem to have increased... - just my view)
I agree, a "seniors only" forum section would be advantagous but would repell alot of potential members.
I made my guides to help the newbies along the way but i have always said to read the threads and RTFM in order to increase thier knowledge of the various things we do here. Yet still I get very STUPID questions which have been addressed in the guides, why should I write them if people arent going to read them correctly!?!? (rant over hehe) Thankfully on the whole I havent had so many annoyances as jass and the rest have.
I figure this is like a game of lemmings, theres only so many levels you can go through guiding them on the way before you lose your rag and blow them all to hell!!
If people have simply signed up to get thier chosen version of WM6 then piss off thats exactly NOT what we want! ROM chefs dont spend the time to cook these ROMs for people to just download then come back whining when they dont fucntion as they want.
As I've frequented my fair amount of forums, I'd suggest for specific ROM Downloads, or Radio Downloads, Cab files, that users there me be a hidden link and set for users to see if they have a certain amount of posts. Good to that is that you will see Quickly who is simply spamming to get access. Just a thought... I've been able to SuperCid, and Sim Unlock, as well as upgrade to WM6, just by reading several posts and the WIKI. It's really not that difficult.
Even me would not be able to access with some of these restrictions, but that is alright as something like this is very much needed.
ROMS = 50 posts, or active for 8- 12 months
Radio = 40 posts, or active 6 months
CAB files = 25 posts or active 3 months, etc...
Thoughts???
mrvanx said:
If people have simply signed up to get thier chosen version of WM6 then piss off thats exactly NOT what we want! ROM chefs dont spend the time to cook these ROMs for people to just download then come back whining when they dont fucntion as they want.
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I agree - I joined up before you could even SIM unlock without going through EMEI check. I joined up so as to learn about my device and then help spread the knowledge if I could.
It will be harder to sift out those hit and run artists however. Perhaps say a three month delay before you can download or post? removes the quick fix junkies hopefully - although unfortunately many will now be registered already. Perhaps if the post count is under an arbitrary number then the posting delay would come in, but you could PM a moderator to show you had not asked silly questions and get it revoked? Maybe too much work for mods though.
Agreed, I dont think I have been guilty of blatant stupidity, I have bricked my phone once but enough reading around the various forums and its fixed and fine.
If you arent capable of learning for yourself, you have no real business being here, you certainly shouldnt be flashing a £2-300 phone then complaining when it goes tits up.
PhatFarms approach sounds workable though.
Sad to see Jasjamming go, that kind of altruism is pretty rare these days......
chrisjasper said:
Agreed, I dont think I have been guilty of blatant stupidity, I have bricked my phone once but enough reading around the various forums and its fixed and fine.
If you arent capable of learning for yourself, you have no real business being here, you certainly shouldnt be flashing a £2-300 phone then complaining when it goes tits up.
PhatFarms approach sounds workable though.
Sad to see Jasjamming go, that kind of altruism is pretty rare these days......
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hey guys,
im not going, just laying low for a while till things settle down and become a developer forum again, or atleast not a howard forum.
Good luck sport, maybe now you will have more free time and your wife wont be taking your credit cards away......
Great ideas.
Let's just add taking money for reading the posts (and sending money to the posters) and we will kill this forum forever.
The whole Internet idea, if you like it or not, is to share information freely.
There will always be the lamers that will ask their stupid question, and there always be the people that will share their great work with the others.
Anyone (from either side) can join or leave anytime he like.
Jasjamming (The "black guy") did a great job, I relay mean it.
But his leave would not end the great work of this forum.
l hope he will change his mind and decide to continue his work with the others even that some lamers are here.
I think a senior forum would work.
Sure all the ROMs would leak out onto bittorrent etc, but surely that doesn't actually matter? It would be to stop the n00bs moaning about dead phones. if they don't have the rights, they can't post regardless of if they have the ROM or not.
jasjamming said:
hey guys,
im not going, just laying low for a while till things settle down and become a developer forum again, or atleast not a howard forum.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
At least you can sleep now?
Jas... do you want me to remove your ROM from my mirror? I noticed you removed your own download link, but I don't know where you stand on mirrors?
It's sad to see ppl who don't want to learn join and ask stupid question.
I have joined since 2005 but never post once
Yes! this is my first post!! haha
I want to thank jasjamming for his hard work... and all the ROM chef.
One of the things that has caused an increase in NooB's (in my opionion) is that knowledge of these roms (as well as links) get posted on to howard forums and those same users come rushing in to download the files without paying attention to the fact that this isn't the HTC customer support forum. I agree with what JJ ended up doing only cause I am STILL reading through that forum and have only spotted about 4-6 actual issues the rest are repeats or dumb comments (up to page 42).
Personaly I am far from a developer, but taking the time reading through threads has given me a lot of knowledge about what my device can do.
I like the ideas of having some kind of feature that NooB's can join, and even download, but at their own risk, and after a waiting period can then post etc. even if you make it just for the WM6 forums until a branded official rom is released in q3
Im wondering what the mods opinion is on this issue??
I think probably the best thing to do is as phatfarm suggested, a postcount limit which you must have before you can download an attachment? Thing is the wiki does have the links to the various ROMs so thats the way you get around it.
mrvanx said:
Im wondering what the mods opinion is on this issue??
I think probably the best thing to do is as phatfarm suggested, a postcount limit which you must have before you can download an attachment? Thing is the wiki does have the links to the various ROMs so thats the way you get around it.
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That in conjunction with a 30 day waiting period would work for Noobs.
I totally Agree
I totally agree with you guys. It's sad to see how things have turned out lately. I have been to this site off and on for a few years now (just reading actually), and loved everything that I read. Now in a sense I can be called a noob (I joined in 2/07), but technically I am not. I am coming from the symbian os (Nokia N93) and the minute that I got my windows mobile phone (February of this year - 8525), I joined this site. I read and read and read, never really felt the need to post, because you can find everything you need either by the wiki or just plain clicking on the search button, but I guess most people don't see that button
Anyway, I agree that something should be done to stop what has been happening in the last month, but I don't think that saying we should have a senior member forum only or you have to have this amount of post to get it, will work. Because if you look at JJ's, Kyphurs, LVSW threads, you will see that there were people who had a lot post and even a few junior and senior members who complained and questioned. There are a lot of people who come on and actually read and never post, because they search and figure things out without having to question these great chefs. I personally don't want to have to come on here and began to post everyday to get to junior and/or senior status. I never once complained since being here and believe me, since the release of these WM6 roms (Kyphur's first), I have been flashing 2-3 times per week. So much, my wife has gotten sick of it.
I think, you should continue to let people join and continue to flash, with the understanding that, they are doing everything at their own risk. What I think should be done is, people who have been a member for 3-6 months or less would have to have there post/threads approved by the mod's before it could be posted. Sought of like on myspace when you post your initial pic, they tell you that it is pending approval and that it if approved, it should be posted within 24 hours. They even have a function where you can have it set on your page, that if a person leaves you a comment, it will not post until it has been approved by you. You can either delete or post it. That's how I have my page set up. It would be a lot more work on the mod's, (I don't even know if that is capable), but it would cut back a lot of stress on all of the chefs and even the people who really sit and read/search and get the answers that they need.
What do yo think?
True, this would be much more easier to contain if M$ didn't shut down the ability to put roms on the FTP. People could earn their way in, maybe give access to certain users could be a lot of admin work entering all the compliant users, I would be willing to help with something to that degree, giving time to those that spend countless hours helping out people like me.
JuniorPhatFarm said:
As I've frequented my fair amount of forums, I'd suggest for specific ROM Downloads, or Radio Downloads, Cab files, that users there me be a hidden link and set for users to see if they have a certain amount of posts. Good to that is that you will see Quickly who is simply spamming to get access. Just a thought... I've been able to SuperCid, and Sim Unlock, as well as upgrade to WM6, just by reading several posts and the WIKI. It's really not that difficult.
Even me would not be able to access with some of these restrictions, but that is alright as something like this is very much needed.
ROMS = 50 posts, or active for 8- 12 months
Radio = 40 posts, or active 6 months
CAB files = 25 posts or active 3 months, etc...
Thoughts???
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Click to collapse
Idea sounds good but the noobs do tend to post a lot....
Most of it rubbish or repeated requests over and over and over...........
Another problem is that some of us (like me) have not been on the forums long but are far from noobs because we have only just switched to a hermes from another PDA
Suggest big sign on front page:
THIS IS NOT A SUPPORT SITE
Perhaps longer than thirty days? If you are serious about this stuff then there is sooooo much to read and understand, and then read again. This would hopefully avoid all the
"I just bricked my phone! - HELP ME"
or
"I want Crossbow - where can I download it"
where people do not read first.
Postcount limits might encourage lots of one line no purpose posts, and to sort the good from the bad requires a lot of time and effort from mods.
self inflicted problem?
one of the problems is that most *interesting* posts (new releases, etc) are 10+ pages long and full of pointless posts and cr*p ("can't wait", "downloading now", etc.). reading these posts have become more and more difficult. Doing a search also leads to loads of crappy posts.
The problem is that the higher your rating / grade / status, the more likely you are to have innondated the forum earlier with pointless posts. A senior member-only forum (or similar) will create more incentives for people to post crappy things until their postcount is high enough... don't think this is the way forward.
As for removing the link to WMBlackEd2.0 and stop releasing public updates: although i fully respect jasjamming's stand on this, I think it goes against the spirit of this great place. there is a difference between "decommissioning" something, and not "supporting it" anymore. I feel the link to the download should be there for people to install the rom and try it, and future releases made public (if thats what he intended to do in the first place) but the thread should be a closed one: people, download it and support it yourself or don't download it at all if you don't know what you're doing.
maybe this will deter enough neebies from the site and help make this place the great place it used to be.
the wiki should be used as front page for the site, with all resources there. I am sure not everyone knows about the wiki, as it is somewhat hidden from the main xda-developer page.
just my thoughts...
by the way, I have not posted for a while as i upgraded / downgraded / sorted out issues all by myself after doing loads of reading and searching... but I must admit that only 10% of the posts on the whole site are helpful/meaningful - the rest is an attempt by people to increase their postcount.... and this really puts me off.
What is going on with the moderation in the Dream forums? I have been coming here for quite a few years now, though more reading than posting I grant. I have never seen such lock happy moderation before though.
In the past on the other subforums locking a thread was fairly rare and moderation more in tune with keeping it civil than anything. Moderators kept the peace but left topics and threads to being mostly self-governing. Occasionally a thread would get moved to off topic or the rebellious user warned but nothing like this. About a dozen threads in the last week, six in the last two days alone.
It seems any thread that the moderators feel is a repeat or not needed is locked. There is no warning or explanation by the moderators, just a lock. Instead of educating the user, search first with a link to what the user should have looked for as an example, the discussion is left in limbo. This is making the forum more of a moderated police state than a area for open conversation on topics. This detracts from the ability to have open discussions and the enjoyment of trying to help others.
So I am asking the moderators to please show restraint and give the posters more leeway. There is no need to lock every thread that is a repeat or could have been solved by a search. The threads will go off the front page in due time, locking them simply is not constructive more often than not. If you absolutely must lock it then at least put a post at the end with a reason.
I am not active in the Dream forum, but I will add my thoughts here.
Certain sections of XDA's forums are subject to stricter moderation then others due to the sheer volume of active members in them. For example, the Raphael has seen a US release on all three nationwide carriers, whereas the prior models only saw release on one carrier. This led to more people buying the Raphael, and a large influx of members in the related forums. Due to that influx, we moderators needed to step up our monitoring of those forums in order to keeping them as clean and concise as possible.
This same example applies to the Dream due to it being the first Android phone released.
While I agree with you that a moderator should always leave a quick note as the final post in a closed thread, I also support closing down redundant threads in order to help keep all relevant information in an existing thread; not spread across 5 or 6 different ones.
So I am asking the moderators to please show restraint and give the posters more leeway. There is no need to lock every thread that is a repeat or could have been solved by a search. The threads will go off the front page in due time, locking them simply is not constructive more often than not. If you absolutely must lock it then at least put a post at the end with a reason.
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NotATreoFan said:
While I agree with you that a moderator should always leave a quick note as the final post in a closed thread, I also support closing down redundant threads in order to help keep all relevant information in an existing thread; not spread across 5 or 6 different ones.
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Just thought I would add my two cents in here ( like anyone cares ) because I too have been irritated once or twice by over zealous moderation. Once by a moderator from the Dream forum who came over to the Kaiser forum to delete a whole conversation, because he " thought " we were getting too heated in our debate over M$ supposed actions . There was no flamebaiting, He just thought.
And several times by threads ( not mine ) that were closed without warning or stated reason. I know this is a huge site with a lot of heavy traffic and the Mods are " overworked and under paid " . I also realize that Mods are from around the world, and Moderation style is subject to differing personalities, social and interpersonal customs from different countries. But common courtesy is universal. While many people don't deserve it, please take the time to include a note on why, the thread requires moderation. If you don't have the time , then maybe you should pass the job on to someone who can take the time.
Also in my 1 1/2 years on this site, ( six mo lurking and 1 yr member ) I have PM'd three mods, asking them to please explain their actions in moderating a thread I was posting in, and in all three cases, received nothing, not even an acknowledgement.
This is not a criticism, just my two cents, should someone read this. I have my favorite mods, (natf is one ) Dave and Josh are excellent in the Kaiser forums, mostly because they adhere to the basic tenet, " Moderation in Moderation. "
mikechannon said:
I realise you are being modest there, and the truth is we do care what members think and voicing concern in a calm fashion is appreciated and this kind of feedback is what moderates the Moderators. This is what makes us a community and avoids an "us and them" situation developing.
I don't have anything of value to add to NotATreoFan's comments which match my own feelings on the matter and IMHO reflect the kind of balance we need between being tolerant, courteous and yet maintaining a degree of organisation.
Mike
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Thanks for taking that in the context that it was meant, I know that Admin and Mods do care what membership thinks.
denco7 said:
Thanks for taking that in the context that it was meant, I know that Admin and Mods do care what membership thinks.
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AND they are simply men and women They could make mistakes, they act differently in the same situation. Suggestions and opinions are always welcome!
i reckon there should be a new button next to the report post button that serves as an appeal button if someone thinks that a tread has been closed for no reason the the button should allow for appeal. a box is filled n explaining the thread and why there was no reason to delete it this is then pmd to the closer of the thread then negotaiations will start
Please do not take my original post too harshly. I do appreciate the mods here on XDA-developers and think that they do a great job. But at the same time when the mods get a little over zealous this seemed the best way to bring up my protest. (I could not PM the moderator in question because I do not know who was closing the threads.)
So thanks again for making this a great place to come back to over the years and keep up the good work.
JanetPanic said:
What is going on with the moderation in the Dream forums? I have been coming here for quite a few years now, though more reading than posting I grant. I have never seen such lock happy moderation before though.
In the past on the other subforums locking a thread was fairly rare and moderation more in tune with keeping it civil than anything. Moderators kept the peace but left topics and threads to being mostly self-governing. Occasionally a thread would get moved to off topic or the rebellious user warned but nothing like this. About a dozen threads in the last week, six in the last two days alone.
It seems any thread that the moderators feel is a repeat or not needed is locked. There is no warning or explanation by the moderators, just a lock. Instead of educating the user, search first with a link to what the user should have looked for as an example, the discussion is left in limbo. This is making the forum more of a moderated police state than a area for open conversation on topics. This detracts from the ability to have open discussions and the enjoyment of trying to help others.
So I am asking the moderators to please show restraint and give the posters more leeway. There is no need to lock every thread that is a repeat or could have been solved by a search. The threads will go off the front page in due time, locking them simply is not constructive more often than not. If you absolutely must lock it then at least put a post at the end with a reason.
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If you ask me there aren't enough locked threads in the dream section. There are over 80 different threads for the new haykuro build there, 80!!! Probably more because i stopped counting at page 20. I also might add that the main haykuro thread has over 6000 posts and counting. The dream section is out of control and needs serious moderator intervention. One moderator simply cannot do all this himself. I know the dream mod, or at least the only active mod there that i can see and he is excellent at not only helping people but moderating in general. Let a thread be self governed? That's a very scary though!!! I am a moderator at another site and i can say it is not a moderators job to be a friend, be respectful or give you an explaination as to why he or she did what they did. Yes i do give an explaination and most mods on here do as well but they are here to maintain the rules of the forum and the upkeep of the forum in general. If threads were locked its more than likely because you or others got off topic, double posted or started a new thread when another about the exact same thing already existed. Case in point, there is a section for members to post questions to mods about anything already and you opened a new thread on the subject.
Ha I couldn't agree MORE with Ryanmo. There should be tighter and more rigid controls there. In fact I don't think it's (currently) possible for there to be moderation there at the moment...too many new bodies added to the fray. And we all know most of them are not reading the Sticky posted at top saying "Must read before you post". I don't have any problem with xda mods enacting 1-3 day temp bans on some of the frequent offenders.
knight4linux said:
Ha I couldn't agree MORE with Ryanmo. There should be tighter and more rigid controls there. In fact I don't think it's (currently) possible for there to be moderation there at the moment...too many new bodies added to the fray. And we all know most of them are not reading the Sticky posted at top saying "Must read before you post". I don't have any problem with xda mods enacting 1-3 day temp bans on some of the frequent offenders.
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Haha yeah the sticky at the top about the rules says a little over 23,000 views. The hacking thread has been viewed over 300,000 times, go figure. I probably report 15 posts a day to try and help but your right its outta control.
Hello Friends,
Well i have seen these site and i am quite surprise here that though more reading than posting I grant. I have never seen such lock happy moderation before though.As i am not a active member but ya i will add my though if any and will discuss So I am asking the moderators to please show restraint and give the posters more leeway. There is no need to lock every thread that is a repeat or could have been solved by a search. The threads will go off the front page in due time, locking them simply is not constructive more often than not. If you absolutely must lock it then at least put a post at the end with a reason. Thanx
can someone please unlock this thread
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=429808&page=22
It is not that rules and regulations are not in place in this site. They are posted all over the place. In fact, if you look at my sig, I have them there as a hyperlink (many other members do the same). Why do threads and posts get locked, moved, or otherwise deleted left and right? It is because lots of users (particularly new ones but seasoned users also) do not read these rules. They do not know that they should search before posting or opening new threads; they do not know that there are sections to ask questions that are not relevant to the section they posted at; they do not know that profanity shouldn't be used around here due to a large young crowd; they do not know that flaming (particularly for no apparent reason) is strictly prohibited....
Moderators have little time to be messing around with people who simply do not understand that there are rules that must be followed (or read for that matter). Hence, they close the threads with no previous notice and at times, leave no excuse behind. They don't do it out of the content of their hearts, and they are definitely not watching over every single thread at all times. If you see a thread being closed, it is normally due to someone complaining about it, and more often than not, mods will analyze the trend of the thread and if necessary either warn users to stop, or just flat out close it (normally they warn unless the thread itself is breaking the rules... think of posting warez for instance).
I have yet to see abuse of power by a mod in this forum. And I am pretty sure that if there happens to be a mod that does abuse his/her God-given powers.... let's just say that they will be judged by a higher power
My 2 cents!
Although some moderators try and go out of their way to leave a message as to why they lock a thread, that is not their job. Our job is to make sure people are following the rules.
Here is a little scenario, i log on at night and jump over to the D&H section.... there i find 10 new threads asking questions.
A) I can delete the threads
B) I can close the threads by simply going through and checking every thread and then closing.
C) i can individually open each thread and leave a message for each person
D) i can wait for another moderator to do it
E) move the thread for them
Well i cant delete them or people will think their thread never got posted and just post it AGAIN. If you move peoples threads for them they think they can post anywhere and it will just be moved where it needs to go. I dont have time to open every thread and leave a message for every person everytime, and if i leave it for another moderator, it might not get done.
Really i am only left with checking all of the threads and closing them. if you have a question you can READ the rules, as it is your resonsibilty as a member, and find the answer. (Or of course you can pm a mod)
You guys have to remember that there are over 1,537,526 members on this site and around 66 mods and admin. We do our best to help you guys but we dont always have the time to write a personal letter for everyone of your and put it in you lunch box.
I agree (not that it matters). Mods have absolutely NO responsibility to post why they closed a thread...Why? Because they already are posted...in the rules up top. Its you, the new users that have the resposibility. That responsibility to read the rules before you post (RTFM). It even says at the bottom (of the rules) what will happen if they are not followed.
And by allowing multiple threads of the SAME simple questions (Especially in a phones development section) this completely ruins development and progress, not to mention this is a free and public forum. That means its hosted on servers, and these duplicate threads/posts start to add up.
Trust me. Frequent the forums for more than a few months and it'll start to wear on you too, almost as much as it does to the mods.
UPDATE:
As of late, there seems to be a lot of issues with the dream section, many many topics on bricked phones, new OS releases, old releases, random topics, and other posts. The title of the forum is Dream android 'development', and its actually hard now to find 'development' scattered in many of the different types of topics in there.
SUGGESTION/RECOMMENDATION:
Make a sub-forum of the development forum (or of the whole dream forum like the current 5 main sub-forums), named something like troubleshooting, or repair, or something like that. That way, anyone with a broken phone can post in there maybe. It might be a bad suggestion simply because the 'helpers' may not check there...but I cant think of a better way to keep the 5 different topics a day saying "I have a different brick problem" organized so actual development [important] topics can stay up top, where they should be.
Anyone with a better idea, express it so something can be done, its quite a mess right now.
[Oh and maybe a description under the android dev. forum something in capital letters saying: be careful, and read everything before taking action!!!, because I think some people end up with bricks because of anticipation and possibly dont read. Just as a [duh] advisory, ya know?]
/rant
Thanks [btw not bashing the mods, its just a bit hectic it seems right now, many things going on there]
theslam08 said:
UPDATE:
As of late, there seems to be a lot of issues with the dream section, many many topics on bricked phones, new OS releases, old releases, random topics, and other posts. The title of the forum is Dream android 'development', and its actually hard now to find 'development' scattered in many of the different types of topics in there.
SUGGESTION/RECOMMENDATION:
Make a sub-forum of the development forum (or of the whole dream forum like the current 5 main sub-forums), named something like troubleshooting, or repair, or something like that. That way, anyone with a broken phone can post in there maybe. It might be a bad suggestion simply because the 'helpers' may not check there...but I cant think of a better way to keep the 5 different topics a day saying "I have a different brick problem" organized so actual development [important] topics can stay up top, where they should be.
Anyone with a better idea, express it so something can be done, its quite a mess right now.
[Oh and maybe a description under the android dev. forum something in capital letters saying: be careful, and read everything before taking action!!!, because I think some people end up with bricks because of anticipation and possibly dont read. Just as a [duh] advisory, ya know?]
/rant
Thanks [btw not bashing the mods, its just a bit hectic it seems right now, many things going on there]
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That has been added as a suggestion and I will push for it again in the mod section.
BTW I am a Dream mod and I am usually the one that closes threads or deletes them. I don't always leave a message because it is more time consuming. I can have an unclean section with everyone getting a response and therefore getting their locked post bumped. Or I can have a cleaner (it will never be clean) section with angry users who didn't search in the first place.
I chose the later by the way.
neoobs said:
That has been added as a suggestion and I will push for it again in the mod section.
BTW I am a Dream mod and I am usually the one that closes threads or deletes them. I don't always leave a message because it is more time consuming. I can have an unclean section with everyone getting a response and therefore getting their locked post bumped. Or I can have a cleaner (it will never be clean) section with angry users who didn't search in the first place.
I chose the later by the way.
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Mhm, and you do what you can, I notice somethings being done by you, which is good that something is being done. I used to mod/administrate big places so I know what its like, its a pain when people cant search, or arent sure of where to post so they post anywhere (sometimes in the effort of 'just getting an answer').
This causes the clutter, especially when there are multiple 'different but very similar' type topics being created, and its tricky to know which to close and which not to close. Thats why I think maybe a separate forum 'might' be the best solution, because as of right now, bricks are happening pretty quickly and thats not good (no one to blame, just the anticipation again).
I appreciate the backing, hope 'something' can be done, its just really crowded right now (making the 'new' browsers get lost [causing the multiple similar topic issue], and your job harder).
One problem is the sticky's need to be updated by the people who started them. Many are older and with 5 different roms available to flash now they simply don't meet the demand for all these different roms. The rom developers need to do a better job of explaining how to flash their roms. The newest one tried to get a little too cute and force a new apps2sd method on users and the result was a lot of looped (not bricked) g1's. The sub forum could consist of how to's and guide's. I'm not sure a sub forum is the best way to go though, There are already 5 and most phones on here don't even have 4. Xda simply need more help with this section, neoobs has been cleaning house and i thank you but you can't do it all lol. I am a moderator on another site, not here but will do what i can to report posts as much as possible to help the mods.
Ryanmo5 said:
One problem is the sticky's need to be updated by the people who started them. Many are older and with 5 different roms available to flash now they simply don't meet the demand for all these different roms. The rom developers need to do a better job of explaining how to flash their roms. The newest one tried to get a little too cute and force a new apps2sd method on users and the result was a lot of looped (not bricked) g1's. The sub forum could consist of how to's and guide's. I'm not sure a sub forum is the best way to go though, There are already 5 and most phones on here don't even have 4. Xda simply need more help with this section, neoobs has been cleaning house and i thank you but you can't do it all lol. I am a moderator on another site, not here but will do what i can to report posts as much as possible to help the mods.
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Agreed 100%, it seems there are alot of stickies there, maybe redundant on some, but are necessary on others. There should be a way to make it distinguishable between information/guides, developments, and problems. They do need to be updated as well.
I agree, a forum might not be the best way because there might be 'lost' posts which would not work either (like the new magic thread that showed up, though I dont dissagree with that simply because the OP is correct, android is android, and the magic needs some help, maybe because we stole quite a bit from it too? lol. but still posting to 'get help' anywhere).
Is there a modification for vb that makes stickies different color than the regular topics? I never administrated vb only ipb and smf so I dont know. But that would be a big help there, then the new comers can instantly see which are informal.
Im trying to report, to help you so you dont need to spend as much time 'looking' as doing the task. Its not 'too' bad right now, when I first posted though omg it was disaster. Once the new rom comes out though....thennn its gonna be biig trouble again.
Update: I was looking at something...the first forum, named Dream. That I was actually looking at for the first time, it seems pretty useless really. A lot of the topics in there could definitely go into the development thread...OR that forum could get changed to something else and cleaned up. There arent many 'general' topics for the phone I dont think, whats general for the phone? What is the g1? Maybe but useless indeed. So maybe instead of MAKING a new forum, just change that one and clean it up. Make it a troubleshooting forum, or a tutorial section, or just updates, or something I dont know. But maybe just better use of it I think.
Hello fellow XDA-Users,
I have been a member of this forum for quite some time now, and currently spend my time in the Optimus 2X section.
People from there might recognize me from my guide on how to build cyanogenmod7 from source and some bits and pieces
from the O2X section.
Some of you might know, that LG delayed the update for this phone quite a bit, which brings me to the purpose of this
thread: The amount of spam and Off-Topic in the general section as well as the development section has blown up
insanely over the last 2-3 months, and this has caused a lot of tension between users and mods, among users and of course
users and devs. While, in case of the general section, this might be bearable, it is not for the dev section, since the real
devs can't work properly because all the useful information gets buried under the same questions and off-topic again and again.
Just recently, a mod was required to close a thread containing bleeding edge information and made it clear that he had no
intention of reopening it again.
I have spent a lot of time thinking about this, and I want to dump my thoughts for a solution in this thread. While
I don't know to which degree these can be implemented or if they might contradict the philosphy or user-rights of XDA,
I still want to post them. These ideas apply first and foremost to the dev section. I see the dev section as a read-only
section for anyone that doesn't have anything to contribute towards the development, no matter how long he has been
here or how many posts he already made. Therefore I propose the following mechanics to keep the dev sections clear of Spam.
Allow only recognized developers, contributors and the other verified ranks in the forums to start threads in the dev section.
This prevents off topic threads from being created in the first place. If someone new really wants to start a new thread because
he really has something useful to share, I imagine some sort of verification process where users can submit their threads and
moderators, or maybe even the parties allowed to post already, to review and approve the topics. This will create additional workload
on the moderators, but I believe it won't be that much more compared to the endless reports they are receiving right now. Also, allowing
a larger base of users (recognized contributors/developers) to approve the topics will reduce the workload even further.
To prevent the spamming of existing threads, apply the same strategy as mentioned above with the following changes:
For a specific threads, the thread starter (and possibly a list of users defined by the thread starter) can either approve single
posts or users in general to being able to post in the thread. The user, after being approved, will be able to post freely in the
thread, or maybe even in all threads by the approving thread starter.
I know these are very strict rules, but since they are only applied to the dev sections, I think they are worth considering, since it
will reduce all posts made in this section to those really dealing with dev stuff. Like I already mentioned, it may increase the workload
on whatever mods/users will have to approve. This gave life to my idea of expanding this userbase to the recognized developers/contributors
as well.
I see that my concept is anything but precisely laid out, but I think it represents a good base to create a system, that will make the
dev sections of this forum what they used to be: A place where developers can develop without having to read through pages of spam and
off topic and thus be more productive and less pissed off. The approval also puts another step into the process of thread/post creation
that might make users reconsider if they really want to post or perform a simple search first.
Thanks for your time!
Also, in order for this thread to be recognized, please give it a good rating. Thank you.
aMpeX
edit: Just to make myself clear again, this approach is far from perfect, but I believe with some input and discussion, we can make it so.
Please feel free to post your opinions, corrections or extensions to this idea.
I will try to collect some ideas from the discussion to summarize it here:
Inspired by anasdcool71's post:
Give OPs the opportunity to decide whether they want to moderate their thread, or accept any comment that is made during thread creation
by ticking a checkbox for example.
Hear, hear. I have said almost exactly the same thing myself before now and couldn't agree more with your thoughts. It's not an ideal solution, but maybe XDA need to take an uber-strict approach to stop this destruction by its own users.
this topic needs ofc a lot of discussion, expecially since i know neither about the capabilities of the code nor how the owners of XDA want to approach it.
I feel by starting this discussion we can iron out a system that works.
I feel that there is simply no other solution than being a little strict on the dev sections. Users still have enough room to post in the other sections, but in the dev sections, where all the magic happens, this is not helping at all, so I think it makes sense restricting these sections in that manner.
The 2 features are quite good, but still there are certain restrictions.
For the 1st point :-
You said that RCs, RDs and other verified ranks should be allowed to create a thread. Well, most RCs have been given the rank because of their polite and courteous nature throughout the site, and some of their work on guides, ROMs and kernels. RDs are kinda the same, just that their work is an expert one. So basically Senior Members or Members create threads for their ROMs and kernels in the dev section, and then if their work is good enough, they are appointed as RCs and RDs as per the requirement. So this feature cannot extend to only RCs and RDs as it may block the opportunities of other members to become one. Even if a Senior Member is allowed in this feature to create a thread, many good rom devs, who might be new to XDA, may feel the frustration to complete not 10, but 100 posts!
For the 2nd point :-
The OP of the thread might not know the user himself so he might not choose users correctly. Some users holding only the Junior Member or Member title might know a lot of info about that particular rom/kernel. Furthermore, this feature will really prove tiresome for the OP as there will be a lot of users waiting for his/her approval. And as far as the case for spam goes, the OP may inform the particular mod to remove the posts.
anasdcool71 said:
The 2 features are quite good, but still there are certain restrictions.
For the 1st point :-
You said that RCs, RDs and other verified ranks should be allowed to create a thread. Well, most RCs have been given the rank because of their polite and courteous nature throughout the site, and some of their work on guides, ROMs and kernels. RDs are kinda the same, just that their work is an expert one. So basically Senior Members or Members create threads for their ROMs and kernels in the dev section, and then if their work is good enough, they are appointed as RCs and RDs as per the requirement. So this feature cannot extend to only RCs and RDs as it may block the opportunities of other members to become one. Even if a Senior Member is allowed in this feature to create a thread, many good rom devs, who might be new to XDA, may feel the frustration to complete not 10, but 100 posts!
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I know this approach wasn't the best. My chain of thaught was simply to try to restrict the userbase that can start a thread. To enable non RDs and RCs to start threads, I included the idea of an approval by either MODs and/or RDs and RCs. After a user has been approved once, he retains the right to start threads and post in the dev section.
I guess my bigger picture is to build a welldefined group of users allowed to post in the dev section, and also easen the way for this group to include new members, since I believe creating a new verified group and manage applications is just too much work.
anasdcool71 said:
For the 2nd point :-
The OP of the thread might not know the user himself so he might not choose users correctly. Some users holding only the Junior Member or Member title might know a lot of info about that particular rom/kernel. Furthermore, this feature will really prove tiresome for the OP as there will be a lot of users waiting for his/her approval.
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This is also a weak point of my proposition, my idea was to provide some sort of inbox where OPs can see the posts submitted and simply approve the ones he deems fit, thereby weeding out the useless information and SPAM. It is a lot of work ofc, but I, for one, would prefer a clean and moderated dev thread over one bloated with Spam.
Maybe one could let the OP decide which model he wants his thread to follow by, by simply ticking a checkbox during thread creation.
Interesting idea.
I believe I've brought up all of the above suggestions at some point or another (not dismissing or anything, just I have looked into this for a long period of time, several years now in fact!)
I'll try to summarise the benefits and disadvantages of each key suggestion:
1) Allow only "Recognized *" and above to make new threads in dev.
I'd love nothing more than this... The trouble is users wouldn't want it! They will complain if we implement this, since not every developer on XDA is an RD... Some may not have applied, some may have applied but not had it processed yet. Others may have applied and been accepted (but we only add the users to the RD group once per month to reduce time spent on it), and some may have been rejected for not meeting the criteria.
This would end up upsetting more people than it would benefit, causing more arguing and bickering from them
2) Restrict who can post in a thread.
This is what we already aim to do with the 10 post rule. The trouble is that if we raise it, it keeps out genuine contributors. If we lower it, we get crap through. Right now, we think 10 is about the optimum, but that's not to say we're not adverse to ever changing it if needed.
The issue with giving the OP control over who can post is that some people would abuse this. For example, I don't imagine many devs who would "approve" posts critical of their ROM, or giving negative feedback on it. Part of the way XDA works is it ensures that every thread is outwith the control of its owner, so feedback isn't being hidden or removed because it isn't agreed with by the OP of the thread. That's why XDA doesn't follow the trend of a few other sites to give thread owners moderator abilities in their own threads.
We've got a team of mods who are impartial and can deal with issues without considering if a post is "beneficial" to user perception of the developer or not (like a dev would do if he was approving posts).
We do constantly try to think of new ways to solve these problems, and you've given me a few new ones to think about
Thanks
maybe then we should focus on the part of my idea that easens the entry into the group of users that are allowed to posts, not necesarily tieing it to the RC RD status, but unblocking the restrictions individually and extending the committee to administer these admissions from MODs and Admins to RD/RCs.
This would require a one-time effort by new devs, submitting their new ROM/thread to the dev sections, and having it approved by aforementioned group.
pulser_g2 said:
2) Restrict who can post in a thread.
This is what we already aim to do with the 10 post rule. The trouble is that if we raise it, it keeps out genuine contributors. If we lower it, we get crap through. Right now, we think 10 is about the optimum, but that's not to say we're not adverse to ever changing it if needed.
The issue with giving the OP control over who can post is that some people would abuse this. For example, I don't imagine many devs who would "approve" posts critical of their ROM, or giving negative feedback on it. Part of the way XDA works is it ensures that every thread is outwith the control of its owner, so feedback isn't being hidden or removed because it isn't agreed with by the OP of the thread. That's why XDA doesn't follow the trend of a few other sites to give thread owners moderator abilities in their own threads.
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I agree totally about the 10 post limit.. As i have seen many examples of the spam/useless post by newbies/noobs who post in dev section... As our samsung galaxy y duos dev section when created had not got this restriction on it (just an accidental miss i feel).. but its corrected now.. so i have seen how worse it may get if this limit is revoked.. and i have been thinking of an idea as many times i have come across new users complaining that they know about android stuff and they wanted to help dev in development and by the time they complete 10 useful post routine valuable time will be wasted etc... So i thought of this idea when i read the op's message in this thread...
How about providing OP a option to exclude a newbie member who has not made a single post yet to make posts in dev section..? So that if the dev feels/knows the user will be good for his thread and he can contribute to development?
and lets also put another rule to keep spammers away.. as there is a loop hole in my suggestion.. which is when a spammer may create 2 accounts and in one account he will obtain 10 posts and create a thread in dev section.. then spam the thread with another account by making him exception..
So we can add this option to OP of the thread only if the thread has been say one month / one week old... as this will make sure that the thread is not created for spamming and thus it also ensures actual development is going on in the thread and the dev is known.. this exclusion is only for that thread on dev sub forum.. i dont know this may be a too much workload on server..
I was suggesting this exclusion method because i have seen around 5-10 members who PM me whenever they have some issue with my kernel or any other rom related to my device for that matter... i am happy and i have no issues to help them at all.. i have also kindly suggested them to make 10 valuable/useful posts in Q & A section and post in my threads instead of M as it might help other users too who may have same issue/doubt.. but i really cant say it directly into their faces and they may not understand my point ... so i have been interacting with such users through PM and i feel they should have interacted more with forums instead of just one person.. and there might be many others who might have contacting through PM only..
So please consider this..
Also this really is a great suggestion too...
anasdcool71 said:
@pulser_g2 - The if-else statement in your sig is really great. :good:
And I've come up with a request. I've seen that many new users don't actually know/get the reason behind the 10-post limit. I'm not talking anything particularly about spammers, but there are some good users who just don't know the reason. I've just seen so many posts in so many threads saying "this 10-post limit is so frustrating","i have to PM the dev","i can't even report a bug",etc. Not one or two or 10, but many posts like this. So my request was that they'd be directed to that thread "10-post count limit in development fora", after they register. I'm sure many of them will understand. After all, it isn't that hard to get to 10 posts.
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It's an eternal problem than,us, Admins,Mods and all Recognized Tribe against which we are constantly fighting.
In the RC'stribe, we try to think and are trying to find solutions that would enable to reduce the number of useless posts.
I says reduce, cause we can't delete all of these posts.
But the real problem, it's a mentality problem due to Internet.
Actually, with Internet, people can and wanting all, now and quickly. I'm writing a question, I want my answer now!
A large majority of users don't take the time for read and seek. They want everything quickly and now.
And against this fact, we cannot fight!!
For whoever mentioned it, the ten post message does link and explain why... But nobody reads it...
pulser_g2 said:
For whoever mentioned it, the ten post message does link and explain why... But nobody reads it...
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Why ? I don't understand what you mean exactly
I have wrote a post on RC chat about this problem and send the link
philos64 said:
Why ? I don't understand what you mean exactly
I have wrote a post on RC chat about this problem and send the link
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i think he means the 10 post limit sticky thread is already linked and also its explained why its there but still no new user reads it..
philos64 said:
Why ? I don't understand what you mean exactly
I have wrote a post on RC chat about this problem and send the link
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I mean that someone mentioned perhaps making it clearer to users why they can't post etc...
I replied to say that the message already explains this and links them to a thread with information
pulser_g2 said:
I mean that someone mentioned perhaps making it clearer to users why they can't post etc...
I replied to say that the message already explains this and links them to a thread with information
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Sorry @pulser_g2
But I understand what you mean
It's better clear. Thanks
Moderators: I understand that this post is in the wrong forum, yet there doesn't seem to be a "XDA feedback" forum so I have no idea what the proper location is. I hope that a helpful moderator will move it to a proper location AND let me know where that location is.
XDA has changed quite a bit over the years. It used to be a "developer" forum. These days, not so much. In fact, and this is my problem, it almost feels anti-developer these days. If that's what XDA wants, great. If not, please take the time to read this message written by a developer.
I've been around XDA for a very long time. I've been a programmer for a much longer time. I think it's important to at least mention my professional qualifications, as this is (or was?) a DEVELOPERS forum, and I've been doing development for over 20 years. Going back only 10 years, I worked for Electronic Arts developing video games for both PC's and consoles. Unlike development here, game development has to be done right the FIRST time. There's no way to patch a game burned on to a cDROM for a console such as the original playstation, nor a way to fix a Nintendo64 cartrigde. (BTW, that was really a "rom" - not the firmware people call "roms" here on XDA.) I've also done quite a bit of development in various Windows CE platforms, including PocketPC (when I first started with XDA!) My current job has me doing (among other things) development on iOS, Android, and Windows Mobile. It's a very safe assumption that I'm extremely fluent with development on handheld devices.
Of course, as a hobby, I mostly work with Android these days. I've shared my work with people on XDA and rootzwiki, and when the changes could be applied to AOSP, I've shared them with CM and AOKP projects - as well as directly with Google via their gerrit system.
No, I don't have a "recognized developer" tag on XDA. I've never actually applied for it and currently have no interest in doing so. Part of my reason for that decision is that I feel XDA has given that tag out too freely. They've given it to people who don't actually do development, but just "kang" other people's work in order to collection donations. (I also don't accept donations, instead prefering people to send that money to real charities.) That's a different subject...
So, the purpose of this (already rambling) post is to try and give some feedback on the "current state" of XDA in general, of some of the moderators in particular, and to ask for a clear, consistent and easily understood set of guidelines.
I'm an engineer, and if the rules are fuzzy, it's impossible to clearly follow them.
So, here we go...
For any given phone model, there is a "general" subforum that is used for threads like "Post pictures of your phone" and "Where to buy this phone." Then there's a Q&A subforum that, I think, is where newbies are told to go to ask questions (and then other newbies respond with nasty replies.) There's a "development" subforum that, despite its name, is not to discuss development, but apparently only to post finished things. What those "things" are is a subject of debate, and I've heard many different things from different moderators. There might be an "original development" subforum which, I think, is used for development done from source (as opposed to modifying stock firmware?) Finally, a "themes and apps" subforum for theming existing work and misc applications.
There really is no place to discuss DEVELOPMENT for a device. Really, talking about the IO registers for a given device doesn't belong in the same place as "post pictures of your phone", and gets lost in the newbie questions in the Q&A subforum. Where does a developer discuss development for a specific platform? There's also no good place to share methods for doing development. For example, what's the best subforum for "HOWTO configure a N7100 kernel to work with stock firmware"? How about a thread that discusses how to modify the CSC files on a samsung firmware to enable features hidden by AT&T?
This all leads me back to the existing "development" subforum. At least for samsung devices, these generally end up being like an app-store for themed stock firmwares. (I refuse to call it a ROM when it's not "read-only.") There isn't any clear rule on what, exactly, is put in this subforum. One moderator posted "For something you CREATED." Well, not a single poster on XDA created touchwiz - they only modify it. Another moderator said "The only thing in Development will be true development. Roms and kernels." Well, tweaking touchwiz isn't really "true" development, is it?
Taking those two posts together, and combining with the current reality (at least in the samsung device forums), it appears that the "development" forum is used for modified stock firmware. However, at what level? I've seen people deodex a touchwiz stock firmware, change the "build.prop" and post it in development. Others take that same deodex'd firmware, modifying a couple of apk's, and post that there. Is this "development?" If so, what about if the person only posted the apk's that they modified without forcing the users to take the entire package? I've seen this frequenty in the development forum, but apparently this is a case where some moderators have different rules than others. From a DEVELOPER point of view, the latter is better as it gives people the chance to have the modifications they want and not the ones they don't want.
You see, the "rules" are vague.
There needs to be a clear and precise set of guidelines on what these subforums are for - and those guidelines posted in the general forum rules where everyone can read them. As well, I think it would help prevent the issue of each moderator having a different interpretation of what post belongs in what forum. Oh, and if someone actually does this, please include a note telling developers where they are allowed to discuss development.
That leads, of course, to the current XDA moderators. Honestly, there are too many and they apparently aren't given clear guidance.
I'm playing around with the AT&T Note2, and I think there are currently 5-7 active moderators each enforcing their own interpretation of the rules in that forum. As a user of the forum, I've learned to expect that each moderator has a different style and different view of the rules, but at least one of those moderators isn't even consistent in his own enforcement. If two threads are nearly identical, and one is closed for "meaningless content", why isn't the other one also closed? The best part was when I sent a PRIVATE message to that moderator pointing this out, the response I got was "Sir, your thoughts should be kept to yourself." As well, this moderator informed me that "the report system on XDA is not for making a statement and or to submit feedback." (Okay... that's a new rule.) I think it's probably significant that this particular moderator seems to have something personal against me. Not sure what or why. Honestly, at this point, I don't even care why.
So, here I am as a developer. I'm on a forum called "xda-developers" (And I've been here for over 6 years.) However, I feel at this point that this "developers" forum is no longer targeting developers. In fact, it appears to be chasing them away. I've had development discussion threads shut down by non-developer moderators. I've had my threads where I share my development work moved around (out of "development".) and been told by that moderator to keep my feedback to myself. (That's from a PRIVATE MESSAGE!!!!)
Why are forums like "rootzwiki" becoming so popular? Perhaps it's due to the lack of developer friendliness here on XDA.
Personally, I REALLY hate to see XDA going this way. I've been here a long time and while I have no hope of seeing it be the way it once was, it can still be a development forum. Why isn't it?
Yes, this message is being written in response to something that happened. However, that was only the "straw that broke the camels back" so to speak. This is something that's been building up for at least a year.
For now, I've pulled my contributions for the AT&T note2 down from XDA. At this point, I'm not even sure which location they should be posted in (and I have moderators telling me different things.) I'd pull down my other stuff from other devices, but most are out of date by now, so there's really no point.
As well, I have a specific moderator in this set of forums who seems to have an issue with me personally. Right now, I need to back away and cool off.
Gary - there IS an XDA general discussion forum that you apparently missed - http://forum.xda-developers.com/forumdisplay.php?f=263
As to the RD tag - if you recall my currently ongoing G+ saga, I did mention that the RD program had some serious issues at the end of 2011. That was why the ERD program was created, and also why the rules for becoming an RD were made stricter/clearer about a month ago. (With the addition of RC/RT tiers, it's easier to "raise the bar" for RD since there are now lower titles available to those who don't quite make the cut.)
I think some aspects of XDA's process might need to be better documented/clearer - for example, I wasn't even aware of the "Moderator Committee" account until today. I knew there WAS a Moderator Committee, but didn't know exactly who was on it, and that there was a "catchall" account for PMing them all simultaneously.
Unfortunately, I think the rules are indeed unclear in terms of, for example, single-APK modifications. In the I9100 forums, these seem to be split 50/50 between "Themes and Apps" and "Development" - The defining line for some of these is so vague that usually, the moderators let it go unless it's obvious. For example, if you just replaced graphics assets in something, it obviously belongs in "Themes and Apps". If you did smali hacks - it's borderline. In my opinion, if you just post a smali-hacked APK, it goes in T&A. If you actually documented the process for performing the modification so others could apply it to different devices/firmware images, then it probably is justified as "Development". Knowing your past work and ethics, I'm assuming your modifications were from the latter category, however I currently can't review them.
Damn, you're right - I did miss that forum. Well, between the PM I sent to "moderator committee" and its somewhat obvious location here, I'm sure it'll get moved soon (and I'm good with that.)
As for RD - I'll save that for another day.
Take care
Gary
I've moved this thread into the General 'General' section. Gary has some good points, I also think it's strange that development, real development, discussions have no real place other than General, where good work can easily get lost - however, if you have an issue with a moderator you need to take that up with the moderator - you can, of course, report your issues to the Moderator Committee as Entropy has mentioned.
reinbeau said:
I've moved this thread into the General 'General' section. Gary has some good points, I also think it's strange that development, real development, discussions have no real place other than General, where good work can easily get lost - however, if you have an issue with a moderator you need to take that up with the moderator - you can, of course, report your issues to the Moderator Committee as Entropy has mentioned.
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Ann, I TRIED taking it up with that moderator in a private message and was ripped by that person for doing so. I was told to keep my thoughts to myself and that I wasn't supposed to submit feedback.
garyd9 said:
Ann, I TRIED taking it up with that moderator in a private message and was ripped by that person for doing so. I was told to keep my thoughts to myself and that I wasn't supposed to submit feedback.
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THAT particular issue, in my opinion, was uncalled for. (uncalled for from the Moderator you tried to work things out with, not uncalled for from you.)
Thank you for the second move. I just hope it's read by the proper people.
Take care
Gary
The correct process is to direct this sort of thing to the Moderator Committee. Especially make sure to include the PM from the FSM.
jerdog said:
Especially make sure to include the PM from the FSM.
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Pardon my ignorance... "FSM"?
Would it be helpful to post the pmid's of the PM's sent back and forth?
(If I post the pmid's in this thread, can a moderator access them but not anyone else? I don't think it'd be appropriate to post the contents of all the PM's in a public location. I've also very carefully avoiding calling out the name of the moderator.)
Also, the issue that that moderator is only a very small part of the overall thing. If there were CLEAR rules to begin with, I think there'd be less of an issue with specific moderators.
Gary, please either forward your concerns about specific moderators to myself or another member of the moderator committee via pm when you have the chance.
Although it sometimes might not seem like it I can assure you that we intend to keep xda as developer orientated as we possibly can, however we cannot do that without feedback from people such as yourself.
Sent From My Fingers To Your Face.....
Sorry, I see you've already sent a pm to the mod committee account. Disregard my last post. Well, the first part anyway.....
That's what I get for skimming the thread.....
Sent From My Fingers To Your Face.....
I've sent you a PM, conantroutman. If there's anything else I can do for that particular issue, please let me know.
In my post, I mentioned the inconsistency of the moderating and dealing with the so-called "Development" subforums. I had a post moved out of that subforum and was told (among other things) that "The only thing in Development will be true development. Roms and kernels."
Since that time, a few other threads have been posted in there.
One is nothing more than a deodex of the stock firmware. No "development" in running a deodex script. (I had to deodex the stuff I posted before working on it... no effort there.)
Another is (and this is some high end "development") an empty edify zip file. I'm serious. Someone made a generic .zip file that has nothing in the /system directory, but will copy everything from that (empty) directory to the device system directory.
Finally, there's a thread with modem dumps. Seriously, a "development" subforum thread containing dumps of a "dd" command.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1986556
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1986645
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1986480
If I'm going to be attacked and have my threads moved when they involve actual development effort (even if it's only a single apk), then I don't see how purely stock stuff or empty shells are permitted. At least what I posted changes the behavior of the device when installed.
I'm not even sure who or what to blame for this. Is it that a specific moderator was attacking my post? Was it that each moderator has a different idea of what goes where? Is it that the rules are so vague that it's perfectly reasonable for a moderator to roll dice to decide if a thread should be moved?
This message isn't to attack the posts above. Personally, I think the development subforum is a reasonable place for at least the first two. (The modem dumps should probably be a sticky in the general subforum based on what I've seen in the past.) However, based on the guidelines quoted to me by moderators of XDA, none of this stuff should be in there.
I really hope this gets addressed.
Gary
Some rather interesting points being made here which I think we, XDA, should take on board. We obviously want XDA to be easy to navigate through, plus we also want it to be easy for people to contact us (The MC) amongst others
Personally, I thought it was rather easy and straight forward, but then again I've been here for years, it may not be so easy for others, especially new users
I'm going to create a new thread in the "About XDA" forum asking for users to give feedback or recommendations on site layout, contacts, procedures etc?
I hope you add any thoughts you may have
Rick
Moderator Committee
Here's the kinds of things that this leads to:
I'd like to post a thread trying to document and catalog the CSC variables in a samsung stock firmware, how to change them, and the impacts of changing them. This single set of variables can change nearly any aspect of a phone from what settings are available for the user to what color scheme the stock email app uses.
Which subforum does it get put in? Its certainly targeted for development purposes. Does it get put into "general" (and get lost in the clutter of "Post pictures you take with your phone")? It's certainly not a theme. I have NO IDEA the proper place to put this, and now I wonder if it's easier to just not contribute to XDA than to waste my time trying to navigate the mess.
This one amuses me: There are now SEVERAL threads in that development subforum I had my stuff moved from that are nearly identical to a post I made (and which was moved out of dev.) I mentioned these via PM to one of the moderators who supported moving my stuff before. He responded that he'd look into those new posts last night. Yet, they (and many more) are still there without being moved.
What message should I take from that?
I think you're touching on one of those issues where XDA's growth has caused difficulties to manage things, and an ideal solution has yet to be determined.
For example, on the topics of how certain types of development discussion (like figuring out a register map) might not be considered "development" in the current rules even though they should be - If you don't use the current rules, what DO you use? If you're not careful, you wind up with Development subsections cluttered with threads of "Let's fix X" (even though we have no clue how) - Some users consider that "development" even if they're in WAY above their heads and the thread has zero actual development.
It helps when moderators for a forum are developers themselves. It helps them make those "grey area" calls - as a result the I9100 forums are in pretty good shape because a number of the I9100 moderators were experienced developers, and a few senior moderators/admins owned the I9100 and hence hung out in those forums. (For example: Pulser). But as XDA grows, it's harder to get FSMs that have development experience for all forums, without overloading them and frying their brains.
What's the answer? I don't know - but please keep in mind that unfortunately, for some of these, there is no easy answer.
BTW, there is some planned rework for organization of the "Development" sections that was mentioned in the "Future" part of Jerdog's "XDA: Past, Present, and Future" presentation at BABBQ. Unfortunately, issues with the conference center network prevented the talk from being recorded/streamed as was originally planned. BTW, this is one reason I think you should apply for RD status - some issues like this are things that do get discussed in the RD forums.
As to your example of CSC modification - I think a comprehensive guide for this WOULD be highly useful. The problem is, you know that within days, someone will see that and throw up a "hey everyone, throw this **** in your build.prop and it'll be AWESUM!!1!!!1!1!" thread... A detailed technical analysis of each entry and what it does would be something I'd consider "development" especially if some research needed to be done (including baksmali'ing, etc.) to determine something's true function - but just "OMG THIS WILL MAKE UR PHONE AWESUM!!11!!!!" threads wouldn't be... And that's the problem, how do you let the former reside in Development without the latter creeping in? Decisions like that are going to be difficult for many moderators.
Entropy512 said:
And that's the problem, how do you let the former reside in Development without the latter creeping in? Decisions like that are going to be difficult for many moderators.
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Perhaps some form of OP moderated post? Any replies are reviewed by the OP before being visible. Sadly, I don't think XDA's forum software supports this type of thing.
As an alternative, a thread locked to all but the OP. The person who started the thread states that comments/additions should be sent via PM and will be added if deemed appropriate. (I read somewhere that RD's can moderate their own threads... if true, that might be the perfect solution.)
There'd still need to be some moderation, as surely as I write this, you'll have certain people starting those types of threads everyplace one doesn't already exist regardless of their own ability to test things, etc. (Just look at how any time a new device section is added even weeks before anyone has the device, there are instantly "post your homescreens", "guide to kernels/roms" and other things the mods only allow one of.)
Oh, and Entropy512... sorry about trying to give you more work in that other thread that Fallen Spartan started.
Entropy512 said:
BTW, this is one reason I think you should apply for RD status - some issues like this are things that do get discussed in the RD forums.
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Heh - at this point, I doubt that would happen. In the past 2 days, I've managed to get quite a few people on XDA pissed at me. It's not that I've tried to, just that I got to the mental point of speaking "plainly" instead of trying to be politically correct.
As well, and to be completely fair, I haven't been posting most of my code contributions here on XDA lately. Then again, there's no good place to post things like "add support for sms messaging over bluetooth" on XDA. It's not product by itself, but something that needs to be compiled into a larger project - hence there's no home for it here.
(I'm (perhaps incorrectly assuming that the RD program on XDA depends on a certain number of things posted here on XDA.)
Hi Gary,
First of all, I'd just like to say that I've read through your posts in this thread and the "feedback/ recommendations for xda" thread and you've had some great thoughts and ideas which I reckon could definitely improve certain aspects of this site. The main problem just seems to be putting it into action and making sure the ides stays as true as possible to what it's meant to be, rather than filter off into something which will fizzle out and have nothing more mentioned about it.
Now onto the suggestion of OP moderated posts.
While this could be a great idea on other forums, I don't really think it's feasible here on XDA.
If a thread is at the stage where it may be needed for the OP to review what posts are allowed, that is the exact same moment when that idea would simply become unmanageable.
I think this because no matter what the persons "level" on XDA is, there would be too many posts to review to give them time to do anything else. This is especially true for those who are developers, not just RDs.
As a result of it being too much for them to handle, things would revert back to the system currently in place. We've then gained nothing.
The same would also ring true if OPs would need to add posts themselves, out of all the PMs they'd received. Even if the OP of a thread was happy to wade through all the PMs they receive, it's quite easy to accidentally miss some messages.
Even mods have missed a message of mine at times simply because they have loads come through. The OP would surely have even more PMs come through meaning that loads more messages could be skipped by accident.
And yes, RDs can moderate their own threads but only to the extent of closing/reopening it. They can't remove comments like moderators can.
James
''Absolute power corrupts absolutely, but absolute powerlessness does the same''
Okay, I'm looking for a new phone. I've been on this site (maybe not having an active account but using it at least) since I got my first Android phone. This site has been a beacon or at least a jumping off point to anyone who has wanted to get into customizing and modding their phones for YEARS.
This gave me the idea of why not have the forum statistics posted in an easily viewable format? I figure the phone with the most activity should be the most developer friendly phone (or the most popular one anyway, and I know just because something is popular doesn't mean it's good.) Still I believe phones with more activity are probably more friendly to devs than those with less activity, because they're in the hands of more people looking for exploits/vulnerabilties to make the phone do what they want it to do (and then hopefully patch those as well.)
Now indeed there are a LOT of spam posts as well, I see them when I get nostalgic and visit the Atrix 4G forums. Maybe you can filter out all the 1 or 2 post accounts/anything that has gotten banned from those metrix somehow?
it would be good idea, but at the same time, not good idea.
imagine how much that would make this forum even messier?
how search engine will handle such tasks?
popularity quickly changes, and there are no way to determine what is popular or not.
if post is getting a lot of views, is that indicator?
a lot of downloads? what if he post download on third party website?
and, when devs release ROM, mod, they go silent for some time, so they can develop more ..
as, indicator can't be what is viewed mostly, and what is downloaded mostly.
think of something that will make it do automatically, to determine what is popular or not.
as computer algorithm can mark some old phone dev friendly, because it have a lot of views, or posts, and when you look at those posts, you see it don't make sense, posts are about "how to unlock this unlockable phone".
TL; DR
there's no way to instruct it properly (machine), and it will clutter forum and forum search even more,
but we can make separate section which is maintaned by all moderators, so one person don't have to handle all., and that section can be properly handled by search engine in forum.