Related
With all these roms with "Big storage", doesnt that mean we are taking memory for the OS? Dont know about you but i store all my info and files on the micro sd so storage isnt the problem but the OS running low on memory to the point that either the programs like "iGo" wont run. Anyone have any idea to set BIG memory if possible so my 8525 will have the memory it needs to run programs?
No you are way off track on what you are thinking Programs need RAM to run which you can add more by increasing the Pagepool we increase the PROGRAM storage if you run out of ram you should get a kaiser I have never run out and I have loaded and run every app I can at the same time
How does increasing the page pool give you more ram?
I agree, it would be nice to have max ram and just enough for storage for essential programs. I have a fast 6gb microsdhc and install everything on that instead.
Chris
i use iGo for my gps. It will say that I have no ram left, and when I check what other programs are running, i have to basically close everything down to use the program. In my older pdas running windows mobile, I had the option to toggle more storage to ram or visa vera but with wm6 I cant. Is there a hack to have more ram for the os.
The more you use the phone, even with all the programs closed the more ram it will use. Only why to clear the ram is to do a restart.
So if anyone knows a reg hack or something please share, cause so far cant find anything
To clarify (this is my understanding)
The total memory on your device is split into say 4 sections when you get it.
Program memory (RAM) -cleared on a soft reset, only holds running processes etc. CANNOT BE INTERCHANGED WITH OTHER MEMORY _ IS BASICALLY FIXED - except for Page Pool.
Storage - where you store programs/files that are not in the ROM
ROM - where the os lives
Extended ROM - additional ROM space.
Now, certain advances mean that
1. Spare space in the ROM image can be freed up and added to Storage memory - this was the original big storage adjustment
2. the Space used by the extended rom can now also be merged to Storage memory - this is the REAL BIG Storage adjustment.
3 The page pool is like a quick access holding area that the system uses to keep files it uses lots. this is part of the program memory but te system does not report it as such. Hence your total program memory plus your page pool is your real program memory. Thus, reducing the page pool will add to program memory. this may impact the performance of your system however.
All this is only my basic understanding.
crazyC said:
All this is only my basic understanding.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
... and it is completely correct. To say it very clear again:
RAM is physically different memory (different chips) from all other memory. There is no way to get more RAM by sacrificing some storage memory.
That only worked in Windows Mobile 2003, because there also Storage was in RAM. This was changed in WM5, so that data will not get lost when the battery is removed.
Cheers
tadzio
Thanks, that clears that up....lol.
Chris
Memory info
Hi,
I did a little summary of PPC memory here which might be helpful as well.
Best wishes,
Storage Memory Problem
crazyC said:
To clarify (this is my understanding)
The total memory on your device is split into say 4 sections when you get it.
Program memory (RAM) -cleared on a soft reset, only holds running processes etc. CANNOT BE INTERCHANGED WITH OTHER MEMORY _ IS BASICALLY FIXED - except for Page Pool.
Storage - where you store programs/files that are not in the ROM
ROM - where the os lives
Extended ROM - additional ROM space.
Now, certain advances mean that
1. Spare space in the ROM image can be freed up and added to Storage memory - this was the original big storage adjustment
2. the Space used by the extended rom can now also be merged to Storage memory - this is the REAL BIG Storage adjustment.
3 The page pool is like a quick access holding area that the system uses to keep files it uses lots. this is part of the program memory but te system does not report it as such. Hence your total program memory plus your page pool is your real program memory. Thus, reducing the page pool will add to program memory. this may impact the performance of your system however.
All this is only my basic understanding.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank you very much! This explanation is very useful.
Now I will need some help from the more experienced users...
I'm using a T-Mobiles MDA (838Pro) running WM6, CE OS 5.2.1437 (Build 17944.0.3.1).
For the last month or so, I kept getting messages to say that my Storage Memory is critically low.
I have all my documents, ring tones, music, photos, video, etc. saved on my storage card. So there is practically nothing stored in the device ROM. I've checked all folders under "My Device", and there weren't really a lot of files in there.
I've used Oxios ClearApp and Hibernate to do clean up a few times a day. But that doesn't seems to help.
I've installed Clear Temp and use that to clean up the temp files. It works for a few days, but then the problem returned.
I've even deleted some programs, but it looks like whatever gets freed up will just be quickly be eaten up again.
Has anyone even experienced or heard of something similar? If so, please help!
Thank you very much!
John
Storage Memory Problem
jso905 said:
Thank you very much! This explanation is very useful.
Now I will need some help from the more experienced users...
I'm using a T-Mobiles MDA (838Pro) running WM6, CE OS 5.2.1437 (Build 17944.0.3.1).
For the last month or so, I kept getting messages to say that my Storage Memory is critically low.
I have all my documents, ring tones, music, photos, video, etc. saved on my storage card. So there is practically nothing stored in the device ROM. I've checked all folders under "My Device", and there weren't really a lot of files in there.
I've used Oxios ClearApp and Hibernate to do clean up a few times a day. But that doesn't seems to help.
I've installed Clear Temp and use that to clean up the temp files. It works for a few days, but then the problem returned.
I've even deleted some programs, but it looks like whatever gets freed up will just be quickly be eaten up again.
Has anyone even experienced or heard of something similar? If so, please help!
Thank you very much!
John
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Dear friends:
Things have gone worse... My Storage Memory has dropped so low that I can't even send out any long SMS anymore.
It looks like I might have found where the problem is, but still don't know how it happened and how to solve it.
First, when I open Settings>Remove Programs, I see that practically all the appication programs are listed under "Programs in storage memory", including those that weren't even installed by me, like "Cyberon VoiceCommander". I'm not sure whether this is talking about the same "Storage Memory". But I thought that when I choose "Install in My Device" when installing a program, it is supposed to go into the "Program Memory", not "Storage Memory"?
Secondly, I took a closer look under "File Explorer", and I've finally found a few files that are very large size:
pim.vol (in root directory), 6.35MB
cemail.vol (in root directory), 412KB
compimeh.0904 (in Windows directory), 16.8MB
It also looks like these files will be amended every time when I do an ActiveSync. Not sure whether this is what caused my Storage Memory to go down everyday.
Has anyone experienced something similar? Would anyone have an idea of what these files are and whether it is safe to delete them?
I really appreciate if someone can help!
Thank you very much!
John
Thanks to those who were reading and trying to help. I have part of the mystery solved.
From this thread: http://forum.xda-developers.com/show...=compimeh.0904
I learnt that the file compimeh.0904.dat is in fact the dictionary that the Hermes used to autofill when we type our e-mails and messages. It will keep growing as we use those functions.
I have followed the instruction on the thread and deleted the file. Now I have 16.8MB back.
But I still don't understand how 30MB of my Storage Memory would be occupied. If some friends here can shed some light, it would be most appreciated.
So I am seeing all these wm 6.1 with very low amounts or ram in them. Is low ram the norm with 6.1? How do people get their ppc's to run properly with only 20 mb's of ram to start?
bartybet said:
So I am seeing all these wm 6.1 with very low amounts or ram in them. Is low ram the norm with 6.1? How do people get their ppc's to run properly with only 20 mb's of ram to start?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'll follow with a really ignorant question.. is there any way to shift the memory to program RAM vs storage? ie. I've got a 6G SDHC card.. I don't care about "bigstorage".. I'd rather see "bigRAM" builds.. but since I've never seen a single one, I'm guessing that isn't possible.. I suppose the flash ROM wouldn't have the write cycles to act as a RAM...
zim2dive said:
is there any way to shift the memory to program RAM vs storage? ...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not that i know of past 2003 ppc's. But i find it odd that the cooked 6.0 roms all have close to 30 mb's of storage and these new ones cant crack 22 mb's. Odd.
bartybet said:
Not that i know of past 2003 ppc's. But i find it odd that the cooked 6.0 roms all have close to 30 mb's of storage and these new ones cant crack 22 mb's. Odd.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I thought I remembered such a function from my X50v days..
For an in-depth discussion on this topic, you can start out with this thread. Don't be afraid to click on the links within for a very complete understanding of why Program Memory and Storage Space cannot be resized (unfortunately).
-pvs
Don't get it.
I really don't understand at all the drive for larger and larger storage. So what if you have 58MB of "Big Storage" on the device. With SDHC cards growing ever larger at lower costs, the issue, it seems to me, is not device storage as much as Free Program Memory.
I have looked with interest at the new 6.1 ROMs until I search through the posts and find that, at startup, the more desirable ones (with the features I would like), have Free Program Memory in the very low 20MB range. Just load PIE and another memory hog like an audio player and watch your memory drop to less than 4MB and your PIE freeze.
Sorry, I am running a 6.0 ROM with everything I like on it and have about 24MB at startup. I use FreeUp RAM a couple times a day to recover Program Memory and everything is fine. I don't like running this lean and am considering upgrading to a Tytn II (AT&T 8925) with roughly double the memory of the Hermes so I don't have to worry about memory any longer. For me, the 6.1 ROMS with anything worth running and the current memory on the Hermes just doesn't make it. And I love the 8525.
zim2dive said:
I don't care about "bigstorage".. I'd rather see "bigRAM" builds..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You are damn right!! Thats my opinion too!
JamesAllen said:
I really don't understand at all the drive for larger and larger storage. [...] With SDHC cards growing ever larger at lower costs, the issue, it seems to me, is not device storage as much as Free Program Memory.
[...] Just load PIE and another memory hog like an audio player and watch your memory drop to less than 4MB and your PIE freeze.
Sorry, I am running a 6.0 ROM with everything I like on it and have about 24MB at startup. I use FreeUp RAM [SkTools!] [...] to recover Program Memory and everything is fine.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I've the same setting like you, I am running a clean WM6 with my costum apps and I am also about 25 mb Ram (only with Sk Tools Ram tuning).
So, our future cooking motto is: " We Love SuperBigRam-Builds "
This might help you guys out,
http://www.freewareppc.com/utilities/upx4ppc.shtml
"Absolutely essential program for PPCs with limited space (my 64MB model has only a 20MB ramdisk). I have been able to install twice as many programs thanks to UPX4PPC. Tips: (1) Make sure you untick "compress icons" (ticked by default). (2) Use maximum compression: it doesn't take long and occasionally makes a significant difference. (3) Compressing TCPMP: if you rename all the .plg files to .dll you can upx them (then rename them back!) I reduced the install from 1600KB to 923KB this way!"
Pumpiron579 said:
This might help you guys out,
http://www.freewareppc.com/utilities/upx4ppc.shtml
"Absolutely essential program for PPCs with limited space (my 64MB model has only a 20MB ramdisk). I have been able to install twice as many programs thanks to UPX4PPC. Tips: (1) Make sure you untick "compress icons" (ticked by default). (2) Use maximum compression: it doesn't take long and occasionally makes a significant difference. (3) Compressing TCPMP: if you rename all the .plg files to .dll you can upx them (then rename them back!) I reduced the install from 1600KB to 923KB this way!"
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Keep in mind that if you do this, the DLL files etc cannot be loaded in shared memory - so your applications have to load their own instance of compressed DLLs. This can make things VERY RAM hungry on your devices...
I run Pays 6.1 rom and i get about 25 megs at start up with Activesync connected to my exchange server.
I notice some roms have a total program memory of 50 megs and some only 48 megs. Does this mean that the rom can be tweaked to get more than 50 megs of Program memory?
Pumpiron579 said:
This might help you guys out,
http://www.freewareppc.com/utilities/upx4ppc.shtml
"Absolutely essential program for PPCs with limited space (my 64MB model has only a 20MB ramdisk). I have been able to install twice as many programs thanks to UPX4PPC. Tips: (1) Make sure you untick "compress icons" (ticked by default). (2) Use maximum compression: it doesn't take long and occasionally makes a significant difference. (3) Compressing TCPMP: if you rename all the .plg files to .dll you can upx them (then rename them back!) I reduced the install from 1600KB to 923KB this way!"
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Does this save Program RAM? Or Storage space?
pvs said:
For an in-depth discussion on this topic, you can start out with this thread. Don't be afraid to click on the links within for a very complete understanding of why Program Memory and Storage Space cannot be resized (unfortunately).
-pvs
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks. Informative, tho not the answers I was hoping to hear
Free Program Memory
I understand the preoccupation with maximizing Storage Memory. It is the only memory that apparently can be manipulated. But, the exercise seems rather academic to me with the advent of SDHC cards. It isn't storage memory that has ever been a problem for me, it is Program Memory. And Program Memory cannot be expanded (my understanding) so the only solution is to execute fewer or smaller programs if you want to maximize free Program Memory.
Unless we can get someone to develop a "virtual memory" feature that uses an allocated portion of SDHC memory as Program Memory, the only way we can maximize free program memory is by loading fewer applications, normally through a clean and lean ROM. If it could be accomplished, it would still pose speed issues in that the pipe to the SDHC card has to be far slower than the internal memory pipeline.
My 2 cents worth.
JamesAllen said:
I really don't understand at all the drive for larger and larger storage. So what if you have 58MB of "Big Storage" on the device. With SDHC cards growing ever larger at lower costs, the issue, it seems to me, is not device storage as much as Free Program Memory.
.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Don't understand it either. Do the base 6.1 roms come with that little ram built in? Maybe that's why there isnt an official version released yet. They cant get it to run more then 3 things at a time.
The only other answer is Get a kaiser
Kaiser is powered by an Samsung SC32442 400Mhz processor, 256MB ROM and 128MB RAM
friends,,, set file cache (pagepool) to auto mode, zero! when I used schaps wm6 4.31 my hermes had 32mb of free program (ram)..
sebastianmc said:
friends,,, set file cache (pagepool) to auto mode, zero! when I used schaps wm6 4.31 my hermes had 32mb of free program (ram)..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah but slow as hell! Pagepool is made exactly to speed up the PDA by caching some data.
The problem is:
- 26-30Mb of RAM are far from enough for a web browser with flash content
- SD card bus is so slow on latency that can hardly be used as a virtual memory for active programs
- No pagepool or no cache is not an option
Perhaps someone could build ASAP an application that would transfer non-active drivers/apps or less demanding apps to a virtual RAM on the SD and keep the active ones (HTC Home, phone app, Web browsers/games) on the real RAM
One of the best apps for a mobile is OXIO stuff that will free RAM but perhaps the best option is an app that *in case of very low memory* would free non-used ram and would compress the demanding app data on RAM (usually I only run out of memory if I surf on the web with opera or netfront). Of course it would slow down a bit the PDA at that point but at least the app wouldn´t stop and would run until nothing could be really done.
Does anyone knows an app that does this on-the-fly? (auto-free and compress RAM)
mmick, I dont realize difference between with 4mb ppoll or without ppool.. I made benchs with and without ppool.. and to me, it doesnt make difference in performance... and sometimes I use msn, i.e, e mail, coreplayer. word... without pagepool or file cache, and my device is fast!! I dont believe pagepool.. lol
sorry for my english
regards
sebastianmc said:
mmick, I dont realize difference between with 4mb ppoll or without ppool.. I made benchs with and without ppool.. and to me, it doesnt make difference in performance... and sometimes I use msn, i.e, e mail, coreplayer. word... without pagepool or file cache, and my device is fast!! I dont believe pagepool.. lol
sorry for my english
regards
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Curious ... did you ever test a ROM with a 6 or 8MB PP? That is where the difference is supposed to be notable.
I've toyed with these settings. These ROMs seemed faster at first, but I'm not so sure if there's a significant difference in the long run. As these were my own home-cooked ROMs I was experimenting with, I never kept them for any length of time.
I'd like to know your experiences with large PagePools, rather than the 4MB default.
Thanks!
-pvs
Pumpiron579 said:
The only other answer is Get a kaiser
Kaiser is powered by an Samsung SC32442 400Mhz processor, 256MB ROM and 128MB RAM
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I tried the Kaiser and found it slower than the Hermes even though it had more memory. The thing was laggy. They need to put more powerful processors into these things.
Some observations:
HTC say 192 MB on their page
Settings -> Device Information says 192 MB
So I guess we have established there's physically 192 MB.
Now... This is where it gets confusing:
Settings -> About says 113 MB. Why is the rest hidden, and what (if any) is it dedicated to? That's 80 MB gone. On my P3600 only 15 MB is subtracted here. VGA screen can only account for a few MB.
The task manager also says 113 MB, and with no applications running except TF3D after a soft reset only 55 MB is free. 30MB more than my P3600. Killing TF3D and soft resetting nets another 10 MB.
Naturally there can be differences depending on kernel versions, hacks and so on.
Some interesting math:
192MB (total) - 64MB - 15MB (value from p3600) = 113MB.
To me it looks like 64MB has been swallowed, or dedicated to 3D (why on earth would it need 64MB), or something else. The 15MB portion I assume is for kernel memory. As a side note, current HaRET version reports 128MB.
Thoughts?
My thought would be "What does this have to do with ROM Development?"
Wrong forum. Let's try and keep the place tidy.
mr_Ray said:
My thought would be "What does this have to do with ROM Development?"
Wrong forum. Let's try and keep the place tidy.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
IMO this has a lot do do with ROM development, seeing as custom ROMs strive for more free memory. I did debate putting it in the "Diamond" forum, but most posts are less technical there. If a mod disagrees feel free to move it.
Also, the only way you could possibly do anything with the ram setup would be a ROM modification.
I don't own the diamond, but couldn't this 64 mb be some video memory, like some pc embeded controlers?
thaihugo said:
I don't own the diamond, but couldn't this 64 mb be some video memory, like some pc embeded controlers?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It could, but 64MB is a crap load for a barely capable chipset and a 640 * 480 screen. I have not seen any details on what kind of 3D hardware is actually in there, as they're holding the inner workings pretty closely wrapped.
My guess, and correct me if i'm wrong is the 80mb preserved for the cab files?
Settings-> Device Information says 192MB Ram, 256MB Flash.
I can give you the right answer:
The 64MB are reserved for the opera browser! I've read that somewhere else,
unfortunately I can't remeber where.
So I guess there would be cooked roms in the future without opera
and 64MB more ram...
Yzord said:
My guess, and correct me if i'm wrong is the 80mb preserved for the cab files?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
what do you mean? like an old extended rom?
rorydaredkign said:
what do you mean? like an old extended rom?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yes..................
i dont think that it would make sense to waste so much RAM for the cab files,
because they would only be needed once in the customizing process at the
first start of the device...
as i wrote above, according to my findings the 64mb are reserved for opera!
TML1504 said:
I can give you the right answer:
The 64MB are reserved for the opera browser! I've read that somewhere else,
unfortunately I can't remeber where.
So I guess there would be cooked roms in the future without opera
and 64MB more ram...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The cabs file or the extended rom takes up storage memory and not the program memory. I read it in some review that 64MB of the program memory is dedicated to the GPU for graphics rendering of the VGA display.
Quallcomm CPU with 3D graphics requires 64MB RAM dedicated to 3D functions. No other data can be placed in thise 64MB and it can not be freed.
that's why Diamond (and Sony Xperia X1) have so huge amount of RAM.
64mb just for the 3D? That explains why there weren't any 3D drivers in the kaiser and the polaris then.....
ok this is ALL BS, the 64MB isnt "reserved", Windows Mobile reports the RAM and ROM differently then a usual PC / Windows operating environment.
It falls back on the NAND partitions and whats allocated to what. So in future this still has nothing todo with "ROM Development" so please post this in the General diamond forum.
PS: ET did partition the NAND and he ate 45MB of the ram
jesus you rarely see this load of BS
opera, noo, say that was meant to be a bad joke.
and please do not confuse ROM and RAM. cab files for RAM, when the ram contents get lost on battery removal?!? also the nand partitioning doesn't matter for ram, nand is rom.
not sure about the 3D, but it is quite unlikely it'd want 64MB ram. (I can check later if it accesses that much.)
what is for a fact is that there is an extra RAM shared by the radio and the SPL. the OS does not access any of it normally - but *you* can programmatically access it if you really want to, or even by using pmemdump . (except you are less free to access some parts that the radio restricts access to)
however this RAM is present in all the MSM7xxx, but not reported in deviceinfo on kaiser etc, and seems to be 32MB only (though on diamond I saw indication that it might be 64, I will have to re-check that, probably my memory is failing).
but, what appears in deviceinfo is just a hardcoded value that HTC decides on. maybe for marketing reasons they chose to add this in the total RAM.
one last fact - the OS on the diamond only has access to 128MB of whatever this 192 is, this is easily seen (in nk.exe, romheader, etc), the rest is definitely reserved (either radio, or 3G, etc..). so it isn't WM itself that is eating it up.
that's the best I can say so far without specifically looking, but this is an interesting question and I'll look into this.
cmonex said:
jesus you rarely see this load of BS
opera, noo, say that was meant to be a bad joke.
and please do not confuse ROM and RAM. cab files for RAM, when the ram contents get lost on battery removal?!? also the nand partitioning doesn't matter for ram, nand is rom.
not sure about the 3D, but it is quite unlikely it'd want 64MB ram. (I can check later if it accesses that much.)
what is for a fact is that there is an extra RAM shared by the radio and the SPL. the OS does not access any of it normally - but *you* can programmatically access it if you really want to, or even by using pmemdump . (except you are less free to access some parts that the radio restricts access to)
however this RAM is present in all the MSM7xxx, but not reported in deviceinfo on kaiser etc, and seems to be 32MB only (though on diamond I saw indication that it might be 64, I will have to re-check that, probably my memory is failing).
but, what appears in deviceinfo is just a hardcoded value that HTC decides on. maybe for marketing reasons they chose to add this in the total RAM.
one last fact - the OS on the diamond only has access to 128MB of whatever this 192 is, this is easily seen (in nk.exe, romheader, etc), the rest is definitely reserved (either radio, or 3G, etc..). so it isn't WM itself that is eating it up.
that's the best I can say so far without specifically looking, but this is an interesting question and I'll look into this.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Finally, someone who seems to know what he's talking about!!!
It's amazing how many fake problems arrise in this forum because of the lack of knowloged of people, which leads to "theories of conspiracy" and sometimes to funny jokes...
64MB RAM for Opera is a good example of a joke...for the love of God, my Opera on my PC, while working with torrents, emails, thousands of favorites, browsing history older than my great-great-grand-father, only takes 40MB RAM...so why the hell would a **** program like opera mobile would need 64MB RAM?...
Anyway, if you're not sure about what you guys are writting, it's better to stay shut up, instead of inventing things and inducing other people in error...
HastaSSSS
s1rl4ncel0t said:
Finally, someone who seems to know what he's talking about!!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
"she" actually
cmonex said:
that's the best I can say so far without specifically looking, but this is an interesting question and I'll look into this.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As fun as conspiracy theories are, I'm happy to get an answer that makes a little sense
is it possib;e to create a rom that has basically all ram and if you want storage you use your sd card
to install programs etc
like most of the roms that are about at the moment especially starbase and pda corner
just wondered if it was a possiblilty
thanks
There were some changes in the memory make-up from the Wizard, and I believe that there are physical limitations that prevent this.
I seem to remember something about the Wizard could re-allocate like this, but past discussions on the Hemes resulted in it being incapable.
Might do more searching, I'm going off really old and foggy memory. Bepe would be one of the better resouces for investigating this.
I understand the difference between program and storage memory. If the program memory is finite, why does the total Program memory chage when I load a new ROM? I thought flashing a new ROM loaded it into storage since the other is volitile.
I saw this post, but it doesn't tell me how the cooks can tweak program memory. Thanks.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=401640
Well it's a bit complicated why, but I'll try to summarize it. There's something called the Pagepool, which can vary greatly in size (in megabytes), but its job is equivalent to a cache in a hard drive. The pagepool constantly sits in RAM, and the device will ignore the pagepool when detecting total RAM, as it can't be used at all. The size of the pagepool can be anywhere from dynamic (as much as it needs) to a huge unnecessary number (like 64).
For example, the pagepool on EnergyROM is ~26 megabytes, but the pagepool on Twopumpchump's ROM is ~15MB (I made that # up for this example). If you go to the memory applet, you'll find that EnergyROM should have less RAM then Twopumpchump's even though it could be faster. There might be a few other reasons that RAM could be different between ROMs, but that would probably be the biggest one.
You might also want to check out this article if you're still curious about this stuff.