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So I am seeing all these wm 6.1 with very low amounts or ram in them. Is low ram the norm with 6.1? How do people get their ppc's to run properly with only 20 mb's of ram to start?
bartybet said:
So I am seeing all these wm 6.1 with very low amounts or ram in them. Is low ram the norm with 6.1? How do people get their ppc's to run properly with only 20 mb's of ram to start?
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I'll follow with a really ignorant question.. is there any way to shift the memory to program RAM vs storage? ie. I've got a 6G SDHC card.. I don't care about "bigstorage".. I'd rather see "bigRAM" builds.. but since I've never seen a single one, I'm guessing that isn't possible.. I suppose the flash ROM wouldn't have the write cycles to act as a RAM...
zim2dive said:
is there any way to shift the memory to program RAM vs storage? ...
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Not that i know of past 2003 ppc's. But i find it odd that the cooked 6.0 roms all have close to 30 mb's of storage and these new ones cant crack 22 mb's. Odd.
bartybet said:
Not that i know of past 2003 ppc's. But i find it odd that the cooked 6.0 roms all have close to 30 mb's of storage and these new ones cant crack 22 mb's. Odd.
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I thought I remembered such a function from my X50v days..
For an in-depth discussion on this topic, you can start out with this thread. Don't be afraid to click on the links within for a very complete understanding of why Program Memory and Storage Space cannot be resized (unfortunately).
-pvs
Don't get it.
I really don't understand at all the drive for larger and larger storage. So what if you have 58MB of "Big Storage" on the device. With SDHC cards growing ever larger at lower costs, the issue, it seems to me, is not device storage as much as Free Program Memory.
I have looked with interest at the new 6.1 ROMs until I search through the posts and find that, at startup, the more desirable ones (with the features I would like), have Free Program Memory in the very low 20MB range. Just load PIE and another memory hog like an audio player and watch your memory drop to less than 4MB and your PIE freeze.
Sorry, I am running a 6.0 ROM with everything I like on it and have about 24MB at startup. I use FreeUp RAM a couple times a day to recover Program Memory and everything is fine. I don't like running this lean and am considering upgrading to a Tytn II (AT&T 8925) with roughly double the memory of the Hermes so I don't have to worry about memory any longer. For me, the 6.1 ROMS with anything worth running and the current memory on the Hermes just doesn't make it. And I love the 8525.
zim2dive said:
I don't care about "bigstorage".. I'd rather see "bigRAM" builds..
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You are damn right!! Thats my opinion too!
JamesAllen said:
I really don't understand at all the drive for larger and larger storage. [...] With SDHC cards growing ever larger at lower costs, the issue, it seems to me, is not device storage as much as Free Program Memory.
[...] Just load PIE and another memory hog like an audio player and watch your memory drop to less than 4MB and your PIE freeze.
Sorry, I am running a 6.0 ROM with everything I like on it and have about 24MB at startup. I use FreeUp RAM [SkTools!] [...] to recover Program Memory and everything is fine.
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I've the same setting like you, I am running a clean WM6 with my costum apps and I am also about 25 mb Ram (only with Sk Tools Ram tuning).
So, our future cooking motto is: " We Love SuperBigRam-Builds "
This might help you guys out,
http://www.freewareppc.com/utilities/upx4ppc.shtml
"Absolutely essential program for PPCs with limited space (my 64MB model has only a 20MB ramdisk). I have been able to install twice as many programs thanks to UPX4PPC. Tips: (1) Make sure you untick "compress icons" (ticked by default). (2) Use maximum compression: it doesn't take long and occasionally makes a significant difference. (3) Compressing TCPMP: if you rename all the .plg files to .dll you can upx them (then rename them back!) I reduced the install from 1600KB to 923KB this way!"
Pumpiron579 said:
This might help you guys out,
http://www.freewareppc.com/utilities/upx4ppc.shtml
"Absolutely essential program for PPCs with limited space (my 64MB model has only a 20MB ramdisk). I have been able to install twice as many programs thanks to UPX4PPC. Tips: (1) Make sure you untick "compress icons" (ticked by default). (2) Use maximum compression: it doesn't take long and occasionally makes a significant difference. (3) Compressing TCPMP: if you rename all the .plg files to .dll you can upx them (then rename them back!) I reduced the install from 1600KB to 923KB this way!"
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Click to collapse
Keep in mind that if you do this, the DLL files etc cannot be loaded in shared memory - so your applications have to load their own instance of compressed DLLs. This can make things VERY RAM hungry on your devices...
I run Pays 6.1 rom and i get about 25 megs at start up with Activesync connected to my exchange server.
I notice some roms have a total program memory of 50 megs and some only 48 megs. Does this mean that the rom can be tweaked to get more than 50 megs of Program memory?
Pumpiron579 said:
This might help you guys out,
http://www.freewareppc.com/utilities/upx4ppc.shtml
"Absolutely essential program for PPCs with limited space (my 64MB model has only a 20MB ramdisk). I have been able to install twice as many programs thanks to UPX4PPC. Tips: (1) Make sure you untick "compress icons" (ticked by default). (2) Use maximum compression: it doesn't take long and occasionally makes a significant difference. (3) Compressing TCPMP: if you rename all the .plg files to .dll you can upx them (then rename them back!) I reduced the install from 1600KB to 923KB this way!"
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Click to collapse
Does this save Program RAM? Or Storage space?
pvs said:
For an in-depth discussion on this topic, you can start out with this thread. Don't be afraid to click on the links within for a very complete understanding of why Program Memory and Storage Space cannot be resized (unfortunately).
-pvs
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Click to collapse
Thanks. Informative, tho not the answers I was hoping to hear
Free Program Memory
I understand the preoccupation with maximizing Storage Memory. It is the only memory that apparently can be manipulated. But, the exercise seems rather academic to me with the advent of SDHC cards. It isn't storage memory that has ever been a problem for me, it is Program Memory. And Program Memory cannot be expanded (my understanding) so the only solution is to execute fewer or smaller programs if you want to maximize free Program Memory.
Unless we can get someone to develop a "virtual memory" feature that uses an allocated portion of SDHC memory as Program Memory, the only way we can maximize free program memory is by loading fewer applications, normally through a clean and lean ROM. If it could be accomplished, it would still pose speed issues in that the pipe to the SDHC card has to be far slower than the internal memory pipeline.
My 2 cents worth.
JamesAllen said:
I really don't understand at all the drive for larger and larger storage. So what if you have 58MB of "Big Storage" on the device. With SDHC cards growing ever larger at lower costs, the issue, it seems to me, is not device storage as much as Free Program Memory.
.
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Don't understand it either. Do the base 6.1 roms come with that little ram built in? Maybe that's why there isnt an official version released yet. They cant get it to run more then 3 things at a time.
The only other answer is Get a kaiser
Kaiser is powered by an Samsung SC32442 400Mhz processor, 256MB ROM and 128MB RAM
friends,,, set file cache (pagepool) to auto mode, zero! when I used schaps wm6 4.31 my hermes had 32mb of free program (ram)..
sebastianmc said:
friends,,, set file cache (pagepool) to auto mode, zero! when I used schaps wm6 4.31 my hermes had 32mb of free program (ram)..
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Yeah but slow as hell! Pagepool is made exactly to speed up the PDA by caching some data.
The problem is:
- 26-30Mb of RAM are far from enough for a web browser with flash content
- SD card bus is so slow on latency that can hardly be used as a virtual memory for active programs
- No pagepool or no cache is not an option
Perhaps someone could build ASAP an application that would transfer non-active drivers/apps or less demanding apps to a virtual RAM on the SD and keep the active ones (HTC Home, phone app, Web browsers/games) on the real RAM
One of the best apps for a mobile is OXIO stuff that will free RAM but perhaps the best option is an app that *in case of very low memory* would free non-used ram and would compress the demanding app data on RAM (usually I only run out of memory if I surf on the web with opera or netfront). Of course it would slow down a bit the PDA at that point but at least the app wouldn´t stop and would run until nothing could be really done.
Does anyone knows an app that does this on-the-fly? (auto-free and compress RAM)
mmick, I dont realize difference between with 4mb ppoll or without ppool.. I made benchs with and without ppool.. and to me, it doesnt make difference in performance... and sometimes I use msn, i.e, e mail, coreplayer. word... without pagepool or file cache, and my device is fast!! I dont believe pagepool.. lol
sorry for my english
regards
sebastianmc said:
mmick, I dont realize difference between with 4mb ppoll or without ppool.. I made benchs with and without ppool.. and to me, it doesnt make difference in performance... and sometimes I use msn, i.e, e mail, coreplayer. word... without pagepool or file cache, and my device is fast!! I dont believe pagepool.. lol
sorry for my english
regards
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Curious ... did you ever test a ROM with a 6 or 8MB PP? That is where the difference is supposed to be notable.
I've toyed with these settings. These ROMs seemed faster at first, but I'm not so sure if there's a significant difference in the long run. As these were my own home-cooked ROMs I was experimenting with, I never kept them for any length of time.
I'd like to know your experiences with large PagePools, rather than the 4MB default.
Thanks!
-pvs
Pumpiron579 said:
The only other answer is Get a kaiser
Kaiser is powered by an Samsung SC32442 400Mhz processor, 256MB ROM and 128MB RAM
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Click to collapse
I tried the Kaiser and found it slower than the Hermes even though it had more memory. The thing was laggy. They need to put more powerful processors into these things.
Some observations:
HTC say 192 MB on their page
Settings -> Device Information says 192 MB
So I guess we have established there's physically 192 MB.
Now... This is where it gets confusing:
Settings -> About says 113 MB. Why is the rest hidden, and what (if any) is it dedicated to? That's 80 MB gone. On my P3600 only 15 MB is subtracted here. VGA screen can only account for a few MB.
The task manager also says 113 MB, and with no applications running except TF3D after a soft reset only 55 MB is free. 30MB more than my P3600. Killing TF3D and soft resetting nets another 10 MB.
Naturally there can be differences depending on kernel versions, hacks and so on.
Some interesting math:
192MB (total) - 64MB - 15MB (value from p3600) = 113MB.
To me it looks like 64MB has been swallowed, or dedicated to 3D (why on earth would it need 64MB), or something else. The 15MB portion I assume is for kernel memory. As a side note, current HaRET version reports 128MB.
Thoughts?
My thought would be "What does this have to do with ROM Development?"
Wrong forum. Let's try and keep the place tidy.
mr_Ray said:
My thought would be "What does this have to do with ROM Development?"
Wrong forum. Let's try and keep the place tidy.
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IMO this has a lot do do with ROM development, seeing as custom ROMs strive for more free memory. I did debate putting it in the "Diamond" forum, but most posts are less technical there. If a mod disagrees feel free to move it.
Also, the only way you could possibly do anything with the ram setup would be a ROM modification.
I don't own the diamond, but couldn't this 64 mb be some video memory, like some pc embeded controlers?
thaihugo said:
I don't own the diamond, but couldn't this 64 mb be some video memory, like some pc embeded controlers?
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It could, but 64MB is a crap load for a barely capable chipset and a 640 * 480 screen. I have not seen any details on what kind of 3D hardware is actually in there, as they're holding the inner workings pretty closely wrapped.
My guess, and correct me if i'm wrong is the 80mb preserved for the cab files?
Settings-> Device Information says 192MB Ram, 256MB Flash.
I can give you the right answer:
The 64MB are reserved for the opera browser! I've read that somewhere else,
unfortunately I can't remeber where.
So I guess there would be cooked roms in the future without opera
and 64MB more ram...
Yzord said:
My guess, and correct me if i'm wrong is the 80mb preserved for the cab files?
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what do you mean? like an old extended rom?
rorydaredkign said:
what do you mean? like an old extended rom?
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yes..................
i dont think that it would make sense to waste so much RAM for the cab files,
because they would only be needed once in the customizing process at the
first start of the device...
as i wrote above, according to my findings the 64mb are reserved for opera!
TML1504 said:
I can give you the right answer:
The 64MB are reserved for the opera browser! I've read that somewhere else,
unfortunately I can't remeber where.
So I guess there would be cooked roms in the future without opera
and 64MB more ram...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The cabs file or the extended rom takes up storage memory and not the program memory. I read it in some review that 64MB of the program memory is dedicated to the GPU for graphics rendering of the VGA display.
Quallcomm CPU with 3D graphics requires 64MB RAM dedicated to 3D functions. No other data can be placed in thise 64MB and it can not be freed.
that's why Diamond (and Sony Xperia X1) have so huge amount of RAM.
64mb just for the 3D? That explains why there weren't any 3D drivers in the kaiser and the polaris then.....
ok this is ALL BS, the 64MB isnt "reserved", Windows Mobile reports the RAM and ROM differently then a usual PC / Windows operating environment.
It falls back on the NAND partitions and whats allocated to what. So in future this still has nothing todo with "ROM Development" so please post this in the General diamond forum.
PS: ET did partition the NAND and he ate 45MB of the ram
jesus you rarely see this load of BS
opera, noo, say that was meant to be a bad joke.
and please do not confuse ROM and RAM. cab files for RAM, when the ram contents get lost on battery removal?!? also the nand partitioning doesn't matter for ram, nand is rom.
not sure about the 3D, but it is quite unlikely it'd want 64MB ram. (I can check later if it accesses that much.)
what is for a fact is that there is an extra RAM shared by the radio and the SPL. the OS does not access any of it normally - but *you* can programmatically access it if you really want to, or even by using pmemdump . (except you are less free to access some parts that the radio restricts access to)
however this RAM is present in all the MSM7xxx, but not reported in deviceinfo on kaiser etc, and seems to be 32MB only (though on diamond I saw indication that it might be 64, I will have to re-check that, probably my memory is failing).
but, what appears in deviceinfo is just a hardcoded value that HTC decides on. maybe for marketing reasons they chose to add this in the total RAM.
one last fact - the OS on the diamond only has access to 128MB of whatever this 192 is, this is easily seen (in nk.exe, romheader, etc), the rest is definitely reserved (either radio, or 3G, etc..). so it isn't WM itself that is eating it up.
that's the best I can say so far without specifically looking, but this is an interesting question and I'll look into this.
cmonex said:
jesus you rarely see this load of BS
opera, noo, say that was meant to be a bad joke.
and please do not confuse ROM and RAM. cab files for RAM, when the ram contents get lost on battery removal?!? also the nand partitioning doesn't matter for ram, nand is rom.
not sure about the 3D, but it is quite unlikely it'd want 64MB ram. (I can check later if it accesses that much.)
what is for a fact is that there is an extra RAM shared by the radio and the SPL. the OS does not access any of it normally - but *you* can programmatically access it if you really want to, or even by using pmemdump . (except you are less free to access some parts that the radio restricts access to)
however this RAM is present in all the MSM7xxx, but not reported in deviceinfo on kaiser etc, and seems to be 32MB only (though on diamond I saw indication that it might be 64, I will have to re-check that, probably my memory is failing).
but, what appears in deviceinfo is just a hardcoded value that HTC decides on. maybe for marketing reasons they chose to add this in the total RAM.
one last fact - the OS on the diamond only has access to 128MB of whatever this 192 is, this is easily seen (in nk.exe, romheader, etc), the rest is definitely reserved (either radio, or 3G, etc..). so it isn't WM itself that is eating it up.
that's the best I can say so far without specifically looking, but this is an interesting question and I'll look into this.
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Finally, someone who seems to know what he's talking about!!!
It's amazing how many fake problems arrise in this forum because of the lack of knowloged of people, which leads to "theories of conspiracy" and sometimes to funny jokes...
64MB RAM for Opera is a good example of a joke...for the love of God, my Opera on my PC, while working with torrents, emails, thousands of favorites, browsing history older than my great-great-grand-father, only takes 40MB RAM...so why the hell would a **** program like opera mobile would need 64MB RAM?...
Anyway, if you're not sure about what you guys are writting, it's better to stay shut up, instead of inventing things and inducing other people in error...
HastaSSSS
s1rl4ncel0t said:
Finally, someone who seems to know what he's talking about!!!
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"she" actually
cmonex said:
that's the best I can say so far without specifically looking, but this is an interesting question and I'll look into this.
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As fun as conspiracy theories are, I'm happy to get an answer that makes a little sense
Dear all,
...my very small experience with ROM cooking (Tornado and Vox) has not shown me yet the options here. I made the experience that cooking ROMs will deliver the same amount of free device memory, no matter how many options you are puttting in the cooked ROMs. So I wonder what is the benefit of making these things optional?
I also noticed that dumping the part02 delivers usually a large amount of binary zero at the end of the dump. Usually you are dumping part02 according to the size indicated in the partion table retrieved by pdocread -l. Just look at what you dumped later - the last 1/3 of the dump simply contains nothing!
I wonder if it is not possible to reclaim this part of the FlashROM and make it available to the device memory - to be able to install more programs on-device afterwards. My goal is have a bare-bones ROM that also only uses the required bare minimum ROM space in the part02.
Do I mis-interpret that part02 is the place on the device where the Operating System resides?
I hope some of you experts can shed light on this - I have not found any treatment of this topic using various searches on the forum and the wiki.
thanks + bye
tobbbie
A few months later and newly motivated for cooking (SDHC on my Tornado) I found out myself. It is actually very easy:
1.) find out how large the OS file is (it will be sized in 64k blocks)
2.) round up to the next MB (e.g. 1b00000)
3.) when entering the command "format BINFS" you can actually give it a parameter, which is the size to be formatted.
- This size will define the partition size of the BINFS.
- It can be altered in 1MB steps only.
- The minimum size depends on the bootloader version. Just enter "format BINFS 1b11111", which is an invalid (non MB aligned) value, and you will be told the options.
4.) load your ROM
5.) the information shown in "Settings-> About" for "Total Storage" varies depending on how large you are formatting the BINFS.
If you just enter "format BINFS" it will use the previously formatted size - and keep the overhead if your cooked ROM is smaller than the initially loaded one.
Mind that you should align your ROM content to this 1MB limit to optimally exploit the available BINFS storage. In my cooking I found out that (at least for the Tornado cooking I do with Nitrogens kitchen) the last 64k of the 1MB increment cannot be used - if you go beyond this you will get a ROM size of xxMB + 64k - forced to add another MB to the BINFS . So the optimal ROM size is xxMB-64k actually.
Sorry if I bored anyone with this - but looking around that time I could not find obvious threads or indications about how to handle this correlation. Also none of the knowledgable ones cared to read or reply to this query - so at least I do now to list my own findings
Deleted post
I know that others have discovered the Format BINFS <size> and its benefit for the storage - and there I got it from finally .
SGregory and his Tornado related WM65 thread have revealed it to me (despite I did not read the wohle thread) and pushed forward to create a bit-tweaked WM6 ROM based on Nitrogens WM6 which I like very much for its stability and tweaks (also on the settings .cpl.xml which guide my investigations on tweaking a little more). I am still playing with this - and asked in the Nitrogen WM6 thread if anyone is interested in such old stuff. In fact I doubt big interest to rise as many jump on the latest OS versions anyway.
Just the time when I asked (back in March this year) - nothing came back in this forum, despite the format BINFS option to specify the size is there since a long time!
Increasing RAM.
For me, the lack of free RAM is much more of a bottleneck than free storage space in ROMs.
Is there any such way to increase the RAM space?
The only way to increase free RAM is to observe which programs and options eat such memory when active. Usual candidates are:
- PagePool (my ROM has 6MB - many have this, SGregory's WM65 have 5MB, I also used down to 3MB without problems if you don't use fancy programs or homescreens)
- Cache Size can be restricted to e.g. 1MB
- avoid many programs in background
Over all the free RAM on my Tornado is better (>30MB) than on my VOX (~28MB) despite the pagepool is the same size or even less on my VOX and the OS is the same version (6.0).
My most demanding scenario is Conduits PocketPlayer playing music while JBed runs BGBlizt2go plus AudioNotes recording a call - still enough memory for this case.
What makes you bother about RAM?
Thanks
In my experience, I've found that PRO ROM's are more memory <RAM> dependent than standard ones. And some of the apps I use require PRO to work. So I was trying to maximize the RAM space available. More the RAM, faster the app loads and functions. Basically, PRO ROM's need more RAM just to be stable as standard ones.
I just recently got my TP2 in the mail yesterday am I'm new to everything especially window mobile phones. It says that the TP2 has 512 MB ROM and 288 MB RAM but when I check my memory settings it says:
Storage:
Total 285.44MB
In use:52.77MB
Free:232.67MB
Program
Total:188.21MB
In use 89.37MB
Free:98.84
Someone told me that this is right and that the rest of the memory was hidden memory can someone confirm that for me? Thanks!
Welcome to forums
That is correct
The important is the free RAM you have and that will depend in what ROM are you using, as some of them take a lot of RAM and some others leaveyou with more space.
To give you an idea, I´m running Energy ROM and I have free RAM of 60-80Mb
and before I had a clean ROM with no manila and I got 90-110Mb free.
Hope it helped,
And don't forget to vote!
Yeah, quite a lot of that memory is part of the baseband (so it can't be used as regular RAM), a lot more is part of the pagepool (a program memory cache), some by the radio stack, some by the frame buffer and some by the XIP (kernel), so that 288MB of RAM turns out to be much less for practical uses. If you're interested in learning more about how RAM is used in Windows Mobile, this MSDN article helps explain things a bit.
My TP2 (winmo 6.5) is running painfully slow atm - it can take 10-20 seconds do do something like load my inbox or an email..
On a quest to speed it up I was looking at the memory in use:
Total: 187.41mb
In Use: 151.36mb
Free: 36.05
which is when the device is idle with no open apps.
36MB of free memory seems appallingly low to me.
Im sure on winmo 6.1 there was a slider you could adjust how much memory is allocated to storage and how much to programs. did I imagine this or how do i find it now?
I have 259.2MB of 'Storage' memory, of which only 30MB is used, hanging onto the rest is a big waste.
Or - is there a better way to speed things up? (like install android? )
You can look through a couple other posts stating very similar characteristics. Two popular programs are the SSK Dynamic resource proxy and NoPushInternet. Both can help reduce RAM usage significantly. Another program you should look into is CleanRAM, which will clear any stacks that might not have been closed when the program was ended. If you need help finding the CABs let me know and i'll post them up.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=676277
Well I dont know which 6.5 your running but I have switched ROMS myself, I was using the EU rom for the past couple of months, and anytime I got under 40MB free memory, the TP2 would run slow and odd, I recently switched over to the SEA rom, put the exact same programs on and as of right now I am running at 27MB of free ram with nothing running, and its just as fast when its fully loaded and I have almost 87MB of free ram. but its taken 4 days to drop to 27MB, odd.
burtonsnow8 said:
You can look through a couple other posts stating very similar characteristics. Two popular programs are the SSK Dynamic resource proxy and NoPushInternet. Both can help reduce RAM usage significantly. Another program you should look into is CleanRAM, which will clear any stacks that might not have been closed when the program was ended. If you need help finding the CABs let me know and i'll post them up.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=676277
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Yeah, also by reducing the ShareMemSize (HKLM\SOFTWARE\HTC\ResProxy) to 0. So I read somehwere!
BioTecK said:
Yeah, also by reducing the ShareMemSize (HKLM\SOFTWARE\HTC\ResProxy) to 0. So I read somehwere!
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Click to collapse
Yes, I'm pretty sure that's what the "dynamic resource proxy" cab does. I don't have my TP2 with me at the moment or I'd test to confirm.
jamesb457 said:
..
Im sure on winmo 6.1 there was a slider you could adjust how much memory is allocated to storage and how much to programs. did I imagine this or how do i find it now?
..
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I'm afraid you are showing your age, so far as I know that slider hasn't been used since before WM5. With WM5 they went to using NVRAM for storage (flash memory if you prefer). Prior to that all WM used RAM for storage - which meant they could not be turned off without clearing everything! But in those versions (I remember WM2003 in particular), you could allocate where the ram was used - storage or programs.
I often think that in some ways those older OS were faster. I remember my XDA mini working very fast. When MS switched to non volatile storage, I think they lost a bit of speed - flash is not as fast as RAM. Of course they gained the fact that you don't have to worry about turning off the power and losing your files!