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face it, low level apis and languages are for hobbyists now adays. programming languages like C# are huge. .Net makes it so easy and quick to write applications. that's what professionals use. the amount of applications released will be explosive. go ahead, go to android, it's crappy java, and if you use the native development kit,it compiles against the old instruction set. android has hardly even made a dent in the market. it will never be mainstream,just like linux. whine all you want, but microsoft got a bad rap because of crappy coders who crashed the os all the time. it is no longer a hobbyist OS but a consumer OS.
no matter how easy C# is and everything but sometimes you still need access to low level functionality. I agree it's a good idea to recommend modern languages for development on WP7 or any future OS but I don't think it's alright to completely deny the privileged mode APIs, like they were previously called on WM. It's alright if you need to get special certificates if you want to do such risky things (you need that already on WM6) but it still should be possible after all.
I agree about the Android part of your post. On this board it seems to get hyped quited a lot but in real life sales are not really that groundbreaking like everyone thinks. WM is still a lot stronger. Still, I don't even see any advantages you'd get with a switch to Android!
I'm a .net dev but there's instances where you need the unmanaged APIs to do things. There's lots of gaps in the .net compact framework.
I got a nexus one for me and my wife. I was a WM fanboy but I have to say I will never use a WM device again. I have a zune hd and it sucks at everything. The new browser is worse then WM 6.5. I think WM7 is gonna fail big time. What are you talking about that android is not getting market share? Android will gain 20% more market share in two years.
http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20100209-717900.html
http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/android_market_share_doubles_will_overtake_palm_soon.php
http://phandroid.com/2009/11/15/android-stealing-symbian-winmo-market-share/
shep211 said:
I got a nexus one for me and my wife. I was a WM fanboy but I have to say I will never use a WM device again. I have a zune hd and it sucks at everything. The new browser is worse then WM 6.5. I think WM7 is gonna fail big time. What are you talking about that android is not getting market share? Android will gain 20% more market share in two years.
http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20100209-717900.html
http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/android_market_share_doubles_will_overtake_palm_soon.php
http://phandroid.com/2009/11/15/android-stealing-symbian-winmo-market-share/
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Noone knows what's going to happen in two years. That prediction was also made before WP7 was announced so it's somewhat meaningless now. Who said the browser is the same one that's in the ZuneHD? The web browser was an afterthought for the ZuneHD and it's a prime feature of WP7. I expect it to be much improved.
RustyGrom said:
Noone knows what's going to happen in two years. That prediction was also made before WP7 was announced so it's somewhat meaningless now. Who said the browser is the same one that's in the ZuneHD? The web browser was an afterthought for the ZuneHD and it's a prime feature of WP7. I expect it to be much improved.
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I have seen all the wm7 videos and its the same os. They said WM7 would not be based off of the zune hd os but it is. Watch the zune hd videos then WM7 videos. Same os and same browser. They are just adding phone support. I preordered my zune hd and was every unhappy with it. Nothing new or better then ipod. The browser has to be the worst browsing experience ever. Cant download podcast from the phone. You have to dock it and load the podcast on the phone. Cant listen to music without headphones. Tons and tons of stuff that makes you think WTF.
Interesting considering the browser IS different, and you other complaints wont be there on a phone.
Its not the same OS, its just they standardizing there UIs.
RAMMANN said:
no matter how easy C# is and everything but sometimes you still need access to low level functionality. I agree it's a good idea to recommend modern languages for development on WP7 or any future OS but I don't think it's alright to completely deny the privileged mode APIs, like they were previously called on WM. It's alright if you need to get special certificates if you want to do such risky things (you need that already on WM6) but it still should be possible after all.
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RustyGrom said:
I'm a .net dev but there's instances where you need the unmanaged APIs to do things. There's lots of gaps in the .net compact framework.
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yes i know we need certain APIs to do certain things,but nobody knows yet what the new framework will be like. who's to say what is limited and what isn't when we don't have any of this info yet.
I completely agree with o2neouzr. Whay are people whining about it when they have no idea what will and won't be included in .NET CF 4?
I've only done a small amount of phone development on WM6 and C# has been fine. My app responds to missed calls and texts when I'm on the motorbike. I recently discussed porting it to the iPhone with a friend. It turns out even really basic stuff like sending a text, knowing if you've missed a call, running with the screen off are all impossible on the iPhone - even with approval from Apple. I reckon we'll be allowed to do a reasonable amount. It'll still be better than the crappy iPhone.
Think of an Operating System like the rule of law in a country; now there is a rumor that the supreme leaders decide to enforce that the only dress code allowed is T-Shirt, of course, the rationals in breadth and depth as in any totalitarian country is only known to the supreme leaders.
"Death to fashion designers!" yelled the fanatics.
"They can't see the simplicity of T-Shirt!" chimed the supporters.
" It is easy to make!!" cried the guards.
" It takes only a minute to paint!!!" said the propagandist.
" It is ready for mass market!!!!" snapped the enforcers to anyone who dare to challenge the new establishment.
"Burn in hell for daring to wear any other dress! T-Shirt is the future! Any one wearing dress is living in the stone age !"
Of course it is hard for concern citizens like we, fashion designers - native developers, to have a decent conversation with this group of people. How can words explain the beauty of our love ones (customers), walking through the crowds of T-Shirts --- in designers' dress. How can we explain the search of excellence, as the way of life, to so many of us, perfecting the art, year after year, to bring out the best of us for the world to see the beauty of free expression.
It is not like that we can't make T-Shirt, it is no-brainer for most of us. The beauty of simplicity is simple but not simpler. A native developers try to achieve simplicity without making things simpler.
Fred23 said:
I completely agree with o2neouzr. Whay are people whining about it when they have no idea what will and won't be included in .NET CF 4?
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It's not really about having the limited stuff of .NET CF in mind and doing PInvoke for really standard issues. It's about the whole architecture of the runtime. can you do DLL injection or hook into another process with .NET? Not at all. DLLs don't even exist there. You understand... we need the native API if we want to do all the funny things. Recent example: On the Omnia2 there's the taskmon service running which is closing applications if you open more than 3 or 4 (!!!!). chainfire guy wrote a tool that injects into the service to stop this nonsense. More examples are the File explorer extensions, Quick menu, XTask etc. You don't need this stuff? Fine! Go get an iphone!
RAMMANN said:
It's not really about having the limited stuff of .NET CF in mind and doing PInvoke for really standard issues. It's about the whole architecture of the runtime. can you do DLL injection or hook into another process with .NET? Not at all. DLLs don't even exist there. You understand... we need the native API if we want to do all the funny things. Recent example: On the Omnia2 there's the taskmon service running which is closing applications if you open more than 3 or 4 (!!!!). chainfire guy wrote a tool that injects into the service to stop this nonsense. More examples are the File explorer extensions, Quick menu, XTask etc. You don't need this stuff? Fine! Go get an iphone!
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Ummmmmmmmmm DLLs do exist in .net. In fact, pretty much the entire .net framework is just a collection of DLLs. Have you ever even written a .net app or any software at all for that matter? It seems your hatred is extremely unfounded.
There likely won't be a file explorer to extend and all of the other things you list get into modifying the UI so those won't be allowed either. They're ugly hacks that shouldn't be needed on any platform. Yea, WinMo needed them to cover up it's many flaws.
You don't need native APIs to do those things necessarily. There just needs to be managed APIs to do them. They won't be allowing it though so it's a moot point.
If you want to completely replace the UI, go get an Anroid phone!
There's a middle ground that they need to find. I feel that's what they're shooting for but it doesn't sound like they're gonna hit it. I'm expecting only a subset of .net CF as even that would allow you to do 'too much' in their mind.
alright I admit I have written bull****. of course there are DLLs in .NET but I rather mean they are handled little different than usual DLLs. So I thought common sense is you call them assemblies instead of DLLs. oh! And yes I have written Windows applications in .NET but always refrained from using it on WM due to performance issues and because it's so incomplete and for all the interesting stuff you have to use PInvoke anyway. Also if you at least had checked the link in my signature before judging then you would have seen that I'm actually writing software for WM. besides that, it's even my daily job to write software for Windows/WM for like... ahm... 12 years now.
RustyGrom said:
There likely won't be a file explorer to extend and all of the other things you list get into modifying the UI so those won't be allowed either. They're ugly hacks that shouldn't be needed on any platform. Yea, WinMo needed them to cover up it's many flaws.
You don't need native APIs to do those things necessarily. There just needs to be managed APIs to do them. They won't be allowing it though so it's a moot point.
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That's the point actually. What I love about WM is that you can easily (or not so easy) hack your way through it and if that's not allowed anymore in a new revision then a lot of fun is taken for me and I guess for "a few more folks" here on XDA. WM like it is with 6.5.x is REALLY comfortable with me and that's no joke! I'm trying to customize and modify it because it's a lot of fun to do so, not because the OS is so bad. Currently I'm running 6.5.x with Sense 2.5 on my Topaz and everything is running really smooth and responsive and I can't complain at all!!
RustyGrom said:
If you want to completely replace the UI, go get an Anroid phone!
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I hate Android! I don't really want to code in Java. And their native API is a joke isn't it? If WP7 isn't suitable anymore (and right now we don't really know for sure) then I have to keep going with the old **** aka WM 6.5.x until I'm old and grey. why should I change OS if there's nothing that matches the customization possibilites of our present OS?
I could understand the frustration for not having full access to native API, full multitasking, etc.
It will be no joy ... no fun ... especially when you simply cannot customize the UI "the way you want" (You can still customize the WP7 start screen).
You cannot express your full creativity.
That is really valid concern.
But ....................................
Could this "new situation of WP7" trigger another kind of creativity?
To the extreme, who would think creating fart application? I know, probably this is a bad example of creativity, but still ... it is kind of creativity.
My point, in whatever situation, people will simply adapt and certain people will excel with their creativity!
Could that be YOU?
RAMMANN said:
I hate Android! I don't really want to code in Java. And their native API is a joke isn't it? If WP7 isn't suitable anymore (and right now we don't really know for sure) then I have to keep going with the old **** aka WM 6.5.x until I'm old and grey. why should I change OS if there's nothing that matches the customization possibilites of our present OS?
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RAMMANN said:
If WP7 isn't suitable anymore (and right now we don't really know for sure) then I have to keep going with the old **** aka WM 6.5.x until I'm old and grey. why should I change OS if there's nothing that matches the customization possibilites of our present OS?
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If I understand this Charlie Kindel (who supposedly is the guy in charge of all this API/SDK stuff), it's not their intention to lock the "fun stuff" out indefinitely. What he's saying is more in the lines of "we want a consistent and logical environment/ecosystem for developers and users, and in order to achieve that, we need to change from the "let's push everything we have out the door" mentality towards "let's make it really good", and this requires serious focused step-by-step approach". They want to start with "consumer application" and hobbyist developers (the latter probably means fart app makers and such), which is understandable because they want to build consumer appeal first. Other categories of developers will be addressed after that.
So, while I don't expect much "fun" you're talking about in WP7, I think this will evolve over time. It's unfortunate that we're not getting things to play with right now, but maybe you won't need to wait until you are old and grey haired. And also maybe we'll really get great APIs/SDK, which will be more useful, consistent and complete than the current incompletely and sometimes incredibly poorly documented mess. Just trying to be positive here.
RAMMANN said:
That's the point actually. What I love about WM is that you can easily (or not so easy) hack your way through it and if that's not allowed anymore in a new revision then a lot of fun is taken for me and I guess for "a few more folks" here on XDA. WM like it is with 6.5.x is REALLY comfortable with me and that's no joke! I'm trying to customize and modify it because it's a lot of fun to do so, not because the OS is so bad. Currently I'm running 6.5.x with Sense 2.5 on my Topaz and everything is running really smooth and responsive and I can't complain at all!!
I hate Android! I don't really want to code in Java. And their native API is a joke isn't it? If WP7 isn't suitable anymore (and right now we don't really know for sure) then I have to keep going with the old **** aka WM 6.5.x until I'm old and grey. why should I change OS if there's nothing that matches the customization possibilites of our present OS?
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I agree with you. Many people hate WM6.5, I like it. I enjoy the customizability as many others on here do. However, I would also enjoy 'retiring' from the need to do that. It's kind of annoying knowing that the first thing I have to do when I get a new phone is go home and HardSPL it and flash a new ROM. I've heard some of the newer devices are much better out the door (HD2 for example) but haven't seen this for myself.
I don't think the members of this forum are part of Microsoft's target audience for end users. Devs, yea, but not end users. They are shooting for people disenchanted with their iPhone, Android, and more importantly the other 75% of the cell phone market that's still using "feature phones" (aka dumb phones).
It definitely looks like MS is going to lock down much more than WM6.5. Will we still be cooking custom roms? My guess is yes. But your common user will have more restrictions on what apps can and can't do.
I look at this as a new challenge more than anything else.
vangrieg said:
If I understand this Charlie Kindel (who supposedly is the guy in charge of all this API/SDK stuff), it's not their intention to lock the "fun stuff" out indefinitely. What he's saying is more in the lines of "we want a consistent and logical environment/ecosystem for developers and users, and in order to achieve that, we need to change from the "let's push everything we have out the door" mentality towards "let's make it really good", and this requires serious focused step-by-step approach". They want to start with "consumer application" and hobbyist developers (the latter probably means fart app makers and such), which is understandable because they want to build consumer appeal first. Other categories of developers will be addressed after that.
So, while I don't expect much "fun" you're talking about in WP7, I think this will evolve over time. It's unfortunate that we're not getting things to play with right now, but maybe you won't need to wait until you are old and grey haired. And also maybe we'll really get great APIs/SDK, which will be more useful, consistent and complete than the current incompletely and sometimes incredibly poorly documented mess. Just trying to be positive here.
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That's a good way to look at it. I just hope that they don't get too restrictive from the start. I think the .net CF would be a good starting point that they should add onto but it almost sounds like they're only picking and choosing pieces from it. If we've got the whole .net CF (maybe minus a few things they don't want us doing) I would be fine with that.
RustyGrom said:
I agree with you. Many people hate WM6.5, I like it. I enjoy the customizability as many others on here do. However, I would also enjoy 'retiring' from the need to do that. It's kind of annoying knowing that the first thing I have to do when I get a new phone is go home and HardSPL it and flash a new ROM. I've heard some of the newer devices are much better out the door (HD2 for example) but haven't seen this for myself.
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I have used my Topaz with the 6.1 factory ROM for at least 2-3 months. At this time I couldn't complain. I didn't face any issues. I only started to flash new ROMs when 6.5 and later issues were available...
About retiring... I don't think you will. The need to immediately flash a new WP7 device is always given. Just imagine you got a new phone from a Telecom contract and you got all your hubs in pink...
RustyGrom said:
I think the .net CF would be a good starting point that they should add onto but it almost sounds like they're only picking and choosing pieces from it. If we've got the whole .net CF (maybe minus a few things they don't want us doing) I would be fine with that.
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I'm not much a developer (it's not my profession, I just did a couple of things for fun), but, apart from performance issues which can more or less be improved in the new OS, I've seen two types of limitations with .Net CF on WM 6.x: it's been nearly impossible to make nice UI without awful performance, and there are big gaps in terms of accessing "low-level" and sometimes not so low-level stuff and hence need for PInvoke.
The first issue will probably be addressed by Silverlight and, possibly, better built-in UI controls and such. The second will probably be partly addressed by OS-level push, "live feed" APIs, which sometimes might help overcome the limitations of SNAPI. The obvious question marks are things like non-SNAPI event handling such as hardware key processing, power management, device IO etc. Theoretically, this could be done in an environment such as .Net, why not, but not in its current incarnation of CF 3.5. If they added functionality to .Net, it could make life easier for devs.
Obviously though, some things just aren't realistic in managed code, so no alternative browsers/video players for us apart from shells over MS engines (which means no .mkv support if it's not built into the OS already). It could be possible, though, if they're serious in trying to do things right this time, that they want to create those APIs/SDK together with devs. Say, it would be an awesome, albeit slow, path to sit down with CoreCodec and build a piece of the SDK on a specific case, understanding and overcoming the challenges step by step. Don't know if we can hope to get that kind of attitude though...
It's good to use .NET languages, but it is limited, at least on CompactFramework, so it's impossible to use ONLY .NET: you have to use unmanaged code for creating some things that .NET doesn't allow to.
vangrieg said:
I'm not much a developer (it's not my profession, I just did a couple of things for fun), but, apart from performance issues which can more or less be improved in the new OS, I've seen two types of limitations with .Net CF on WM 6.x: it's been nearly impossible to make nice UI without awful performance, and there are big gaps in terms of accessing "low-level" and sometimes not so low-level stuff and hence need for PInvoke.
The first issue will probably be addressed by Silverlight and, possibly, better built-in UI controls and such. The second will probably be partly addressed by OS-level push, "live feed" APIs, which sometimes might help overcome the limitations of SNAPI. The obvious question marks are things like non-SNAPI event handling such as hardware key processing, power management, device IO etc. Theoretically, this could be done in an environment such as .Net, why not, but not in its current incarnation of CF 3.5. If they added functionality to .Net, it could make life easier for devs.
Obviously though, some things just aren't realistic in managed code, so no alternative browsers/video players for us apart from shells over MS engines (which means no .mkv support if it's not built into the OS already). It could be possible, though, if they're serious in trying to do things right this time, that they want to create those APIs/SDK together with devs. Say, it would be an awesome, albeit slow, path to sit down with CoreCodec and build a piece of the SDK on a specific case, understanding and overcoming the challenges step by step. Don't know if we can hope to get that kind of attitude though...
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Yup. I'm expecting a 'revolution' of sorts in the UI standpoint. Like I've stated previously, it sucks trying to make a good, finger-friendly UI. XNA will make game/3d creation a breeze. Silverlight will be awesome for more traditional style UIs. I'm just wondering how high level and low level they'll get. For example, if I wanted to make an app that looked exactly like the main UI of the phone would I be able to just create a panel object, give it the text for the title, text and controls on that panel, and it will take care of the placement, input control, etc? Or what if I want to go the opposite route and create a UI of my own, will I be able to do that? I'm expecting things like button inputs to be provided. It would be crazy for them not to. That's part of the benefit of standardizing the buttons, they can easily bubble those up to devs.
The leaked docs show that native APIs and unmanaged code will be available to an extent but only to OEMs and carriers. I'm sure if people make enough noise they'll back down and approve apps that make use of that for others as well if they show the need. Microsoft's corporate culture traditionally hasn't been as 'religious' as Apple's and is more willing to back down on things if pushed.
I will apologize in advance for this will be long and random because my thoughts bounce around like that
You know I've been trying to figure it all out lately. It seems a good portion of XDA (40% according to this poll) members are liking 6.5.3 moreso than 7. OK...fine. Then we have this huge population of people (34% according to this poll that plan on switching to another mobile OS. Not to mention the slew of people still pissed and wondering if the HD2 will be forward compatible. And the ever increasing amount of people still prefer Sense UI over WP7. Its all so much to address so I just stopped posting for a while...but I wonder?!?!? Is change really that bad?
Its like people have been *****ing for months wanting M$ to give us the scoop on WP7...we have it and we're pissed. lol. lets move past all this...I mean its borderline ludicrous when people are saying (as this thread ) that he's selling his phone because because he's not sure if he's getting the upgrade to the OS that isn't gonna be released for another 6 months...lol WTF people. Why don't we use this forum for sharing information and not bashing something that not out nor is it finished...we don't have even close to half of the info about this phone yet we are judging it based upon insubstantial information.
I remember when the videos started coming out, the guy at the booth mentions that copy/paste hadn't been implemented into the OS yet...then I read on this forum that there is NO COPY/PASTE. One guy asked the phone operator about multitasking. The guy replies "the phone itself multitasks." He was then followup asked to go to the home screen and press the back button in which the phone lead him back to to the task he was previously doing (IE: MULTITASKING)....I look on this forum..."WP7 doesn't multitask wtfloljumpfrombuildingdiewithmelmaojkjkjkjk." where did this random unsubstantiated info come from? Its like people aren't even watching, listening, reading anymore.
6.5.3 is awesome and MS has said it will continue to build upon it...so all current users can still have all the things they love currently for the next 10 years (with microsofts string of innovation..lol.) But lets be honest lets look at 6+ as a whole:
OS Fragmentation...this is one of the biggest issues for me. Everytime I see an app I like on this website I have to see if its resolution compatible with my device (WVGA FTW). Go look in the XDA development section for new apps or apps in developments...I'm sure everyone of them will have a post saying "please make this for QVGA" or something similar. This is huge. Android also has a similar issue BTW
Blandness. This is the biggest issue. I've mentioned this before in other posts. Why is it everytime I want to accomplish anything in the OS I'm lead to an ugly white screen? Settings=ugly. SMS=ugly. Email=Ugly ANY SYSTEM MENU=UGLY. Its no wonder we all like Sense UI from HTC. Go to search and look up Contact Manager...see how many apps you get. Look up music players, lock screens, UI's etc. We got that by dozens. WHY? Now if you look at the scene currently...its because it gives us a choice to personalize, and I agree. But if you look back this was born out of a need for better rather than a need for different/personalization. Media player sucked...it was bland hard to navigate and generally a terrible experience. AC takes the best out the (Iphone) and creates it for WM (S2P)...sure it looks great but the need was much more for a BETTER player. Same can be said for S2U2 et al. HTC needed Manilla/sense to make our outdated UI look appealing/current. Everything about Sense is better than stock, Same can be said for Samsungs Touchwiz. These things were born out of necessity.
Terrible manufacturing. For all the HTC love out there, we all seem to let them get away with the fact that for the past 10 years (up until HD2) they have been giving us awesome software coupled with terrible hardware. It is a fact that we had incomplete/missing drivers and because of this alot of development was stalled or took forever to do. And image how much money HTC made off of shaving costs with shoddy manufacturing.
I won't got too indepth there but to keep it simple, M$ has those basic problems to deal with when making a new OS.
Now look at WP7, Easily top of the line spec sheet just for minimum requirements. I knew we were in for greatness when we got that bit of info. C'mon snapdragon as the minimum...awesome. This also gets rid of those Terrible manufacturing woes...so people can't just put out trash with the M$ OS on it. No more phones that crash from simple program openings. Also WVGA as the standard. No more need to build an app and then port it to other resolutions (WIN..) This coupled with the XNA/Silverlight development tolls make it possible to build for Xbox, PC, Mobile all at the same time...thats awesome and a huge win. Lastly, with Metro, there is no need for user skins on top of the UI. I know alot of you guys are newer to WM, but back in the day...I remember where the home screen was just "the homescreen"..the ugly green or blue homescreen with whatever info you needed on it (Weatherpanel FTW..anyone?) People realized how blah it was and you see where we are now. Look at Sense...its awesome because it gives you all the same info but it looks good and its faster. Metro has live tiles that give you access to EVERYTHING you need on your phone. Its not like the iphone where you check your SMS by tapping sms its something completely different, better. You go from the Hub into the universe that is you contacts, updated twitters, facebook, photos, sms, emails....everything at the touch of the finger...just by going into contacts. Thats awesome. Granted I don't uses twitter or facebook but its a nice touch. But if you look at it, there is still more room for innovation...HTC weather HUB anyone?
So yeah, a phone is a means of communications, a cell phone is a portable way of communication..Wp7 looks to be communication on steroids. I apologize for this extremely long message but i had to get out everything on my mind...in a place where people would read it. If you stuck it out, thank you. If you post telling me that was too long, you're absolutely right. Sorry
Good One..Well said, and I agree
devs, here do not trying to understand, if MS is closing one door, they are opening 100 doors as in the Xbox and other services can be synced among them, so this gives lot of opportunity to devs to come up with exciting creativve ideas.
Also, MS wnats to extend the scope with reaching out to all types of users and segments, and what they have showed here is the perfect thing.I am wwaiting for a review or hands on for a fully furnished and finished wp7 device.
I totally agree with you style. WM5 was a good os, but boring, Then here comes WM6.0 6.1 with touchflo. It was awesome, but the os sucked really bad, had a bunch of bugs and its just a let down. I had a htc 8125 which the phone itself was a resilient phone, but it just was sluggish with any of the OS except WM5 on it. I believe the phone couldn't exactly hold its own with the software but never the less it was slow running wm 6.5. The phone ran the os but I think windows had a bunch of problems. I am no longer using my 8125 cuz the poor thing died from a heart attack and major artery blockage from being used hard lol. I have a 8525 coming in and im planning on putting wm7 on it. Can't wait. I may be in for a let down but if I am then I still have a pretty cool phone coming to me, and it makes me look kinda cool for having it haha.
+1 good post b
A very good post.
Just keep in mind that WP7 is a "new" platform. It is not an upgrade of current WM6.x.
Being a new platform, it means new kind of hardware, OS, and applications.
It will start with 0 or less available applications when it launch. Same like iPhone / Android when they just newly released. Nothing to worry here, except you hate waiting.
gogol said:
A very good post.
Just keep in mind that WP7 is a "new" platform. It is not an upgrade of current WM6.x.
Being a new platform, it means new kind of hardware, OS, and applications.
It will start with 0 or less available applications when it launch. Same like iPhone / Android when they just newly released. Nothing to worry here, except you hate waiting.
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So true....but there will be a good amount of apps available on launch because its using the Zune software so it will be running Zune Apps...I have a few games on my Zune already...all are nice and smooth.
Also BobbyJ, you won't be able to upgrade the 8525 to WP7. Hardware isn't up to par.
~style1~
Thank you guys for the comments, I already had my flame suit on..
Exactly i was thinking same. MS has to start from 0 ..... new os, new hw, new life.
I like the functionality of new OS but not the GUI . and i believe lot will change till final release. Still i will use wp7 if everything seems to work out.
personally i would like cab installation and customization on wp7
guess how cool it would be lil customization like Sense UI on wp7 .. or adding app by cab ....
but i think whatever wp7 will be, it will worth using.
style1 said:
Also BobbyJ, you won't be able to upgrade the 8525 to WP7. Hardware isn't up to par.
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Hardware is up to par, only the buttons are not the same.
user Xmoo (does something with testing devices) stated on a dutch forum that there are HD2's running WP7 at HTC Taiwan.
Some user here stated (from internal sources) that it is defenitely possible to run WP7. All microsoft said till this date, that the HD2 doenst have the right buttons.
Im agree totally with you on this subject. Its certainly the only way for Microsoft to capture some decent marketshare.
@style1, you don't no what real multitasking is. Guys from MS already confirmed that thirdy party multitasking won't be allowed. And about other things you said, let me repeat myself: they're trying to make an OS for underage people, retards, music and gaming fans which don't care about the fact that they don't have real multitasking, file system access etc.
pilgrim011 said:
@style1, you don't no what real multitasking is. Guys from MS already confirmed that thirdy party multitasking won't be allowed. And about other things you said, let me repeat myself: they're trying to make an OS for underage people, retards, music and gaming fans which don't care about the fact that they don't have real multitasking, file system access etc.
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I don' remember reading or hearing confirmation that multitasking won't be available. They clearly stated many times that some kind of multitasking will be available. We shall know everything(or almost everything) after MIX.
Stop judging unfinished OS that you don't even know. What you're saying is pure speculation.
style1 said:
OS Fragmentation...this is one of the biggest issues for me. Everytime I see an app I like on this website I have to see if its resolution compatible with my device (WVGA FTW). Go look in the XDA development section for new apps or apps in developments...I'm sure everyone of them will have a post saying "please make this for QVGA" or something similar. This is huge. Android also has a similar issue BTW
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I'm not sure if you can make the OS responsible for that. I'd rather blame it on lazy development. And I don't really say it's so easy. Developing for WM is just so much different than coding for a desktop OS. It's not sufficient at all to just throw some control on a dialog and that's it. Due to small space on screen you have to be really carefully what you do, and always have to keep in mind to NOT develop for a fixed resolution. It's painful but everything UI related needs to be handled dynamically and automatically adjust to whatever screen resolution/orientation. You see the problems that some apps had when the start menu moved to bottom? Few pixels wrong and the app is garbage!! But then... the applications that were developed properly are still working! Go figure!
On the other hand if the framework for WP7 is really THAT great then the whole UI development should be totally resolution independent. This is really needed because I don't think it's right that there's only WVGA for WP7. It was only told that WVGA is the minimium requirement, which for me means in the future there will be higher resolutions and we'd face the same problems again.
It is not specifically the OS, but the "platform" as a whole (screen size, screen type, number of buttons, processor speed, type of buttons, size of RAM, flip phone, slide phone, whatnot, etc).
And yes, it is painful to maintain a lot of builds specific for those kind of varieties.
Not to mention lack OS update because of phone operator / carrier lazyness (I bought my HTC Kaiser unlocked from HTC because I learned that T-Mobile is very slow giving update).
That's why I am glad that Microsoft is now taking control of the minimum hardware specification. Because that would be an advantage of current WM situation, especially to reduce fragmentation as much as possible.
Also the fact that Microsoft will provide OS update and hardware drivers (no more *****ing around about HTC missing drivers).
Instead of developer wandering around to "patch" their apps to work on fragmented platform, or figuring out tricks to over-come missing drivers. They can now enjoy leveraging their creativity for making consistent apps in well supported plaform (WP7).
RAMMANN said:
I'm not sure if you can make the OS responsible for that. I'd rather blame it on lazy development. And I don't really say it's so easy. Developing for WM is just so much different than coding for a desktop OS. It's not sufficient at all to just throw some control on a dialog and that's it. Due to small space on screen you have to be really carefully what you do, and always have to keep in mind to NOT develop for a fixed resolution. It's painful but everything UI related needs to be handled dynamically and automatically adjust to whatever screen resolution/orientation. You see the problems that some apps had when the start menu moved to bottom? Few pixels wrong and the app is garbage!! But then... the applications that were developed properly are still working! Go figure!
On the other hand if the framework for WP7 is really THAT great then the whole UI development should be totally resolution independent. This is really needed because I don't think it's right that there's only WVGA for WP7. It was only told that WVGA is the minimium requirement, which for me means in the future there will be higher resolutions and we'd face the same problems again.
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style1 said:
I mean its borderline ludicrous when people are saying (as this thread ) that he's selling his phone because because he's not sure if he's getting the upgrade to the OS that isn't gonna be released for another 6 months...lol WTF people.
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The problem is not just that the HD2 won't get an upgrade, it's the combination of it not getting an upgrade plus the fact that WP7 will not be backwards-compatible with Windows Moble applications. That is something almost nobody saw coming.
The effect of the non-backwards-compatibility announcement has been to completely kill off Windows Mobile as a viable platform for commercial software development. (Look at Adobe, look at Skype - there will be plenty of other developers jumping ship, most of whom probably won't make any public announcement about it).
If, when I bought my HD2, I had been told "well, it won't get an upgrade to WP7, but any application written for Windows Mobile will run quite happily on WP7, so there's every incentive for people to keep developing for the HD2's platform" that would have been fine. If they'd said "Windows Mobile will cease to be a commercially viable platform 3 months after you buy the phone, but you will eventually get an upgrade to WP7" that would have been okay - not great, but okay. But for them to say "you won't be getting an upgrade and the phone's existing OS is no longer commercially viable as of now" and for them to say that 3 months after I bought it but not to say anything beforehand - that is something I can well understand people being annoyed about.
style1 said:
One guy asked the phone operator about multitasking. The guy replies "the phone itself multitasks." He was then followup asked to go to the home screen and press the back button in which the phone lead him back to to the task he was previously doing (IE: MULTITASKING)....I look on this forum..."WP7 doesn't multitask wtfloljumpfrombuildingdiewithmelmaojkjkjkjk." where did this random unsubstantiated info come from? Its like people aren't even watching, listening, reading anymore.
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No, it's like you aren't paying attention.
There have been a number of announcements and leaks on the subject of multi-tasking, and we now have a pretty clear idea of how it will work. There can only be one foreground application. When a typical application is moved to the background, it will be suspended, but capable of being resumed from the same point when it is reactivated; it will not, however, be capable of actually doing anything while in the background. It will be possible for certain, select applications and services to actually run in the background rather than being paused, but this facility will be available only to applications developed by MS, or by their "partners" - i.e. phone manufacturers and networks.
style1 said:
6.5.3 is awesome and MS has said it will continue to build upon it...
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Yes, but no one takes that claim seriously.
Shasarak said:
If, when I bought my HD2, I had been told "well, it won't get an upgrade to WP7, but any application written for Windows Mobile will run quite happily on WP7, so there's every incentive for people to keep developing for the HD2's platform" that would have been fine. If they'd said "Windows Mobile will cease to be a commercially viable platform 3 months after you buy the phone, but you will eventually get an upgrade to WP7" that would have been okay - not great, but okay. But for them to say "you won't be getting an upgrade and the phone's existing OS is no longer commercially viable as of now" and for them to say that 3 months after I bought it but not to say anything beforehand - that is something I can well understand people being annoyed about.
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If you buy the HD2 then you can develop for the HD2. You can't expect to develop software for devices which are released 1 year later and run a completely different OS. Officially noone really confirmed that HD2 runs WP7. People were spectaculating that it would run on the HD2 but these have only been rumours that shouldn't really make anyone decide to buy the phone. HD2 is as good as a WM 6.5 device can get and that's what it was made for. Nothing more.
Maybe we also forget that WM 6.5.x is brand new and just about to be launched. How many phones have you seen with a 6.5.3 stock ROM? There will still be plenty of new phones coming!
I see the WM 6.5.x vs WP7 scenario to be a bit similar like Windows NT vs. Windows 95. Windows NT was mainly a network OS used in companies while Windows 95 was designed more for the end user that's supposed to play DirectX games and such. And in this case if you bought a PC with Windows NT you couldn't develop games which need to support newest DirectX technology....
RAMMANN said:
If you buy the HD2 then you can develop for the HD2. You can't expect to develop software for devices which are released 1 year later and run a completely different OS. Officially noone really confirmed that HD2 runs WP7. People were spectaculating that it would run on the HD2 but these have only been rumours that shouldn't really make anyone decide to buy the phone. HD2 is as good as a WM 6.5 device can get and that's what it was made for. Nothing more.
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The point is that no one realised WP7 would be "a completely different OS" - we were all completely blindsided by that. No one expected a situation where there wouldn't be a single WM6 application capable of running on WP7. If, as everyone expected and as HTC allowed HD2 buyers to believe, WP7 had been backwards-compatible, WM6.5 would still be a viable platform for commercial software: people could keep on developing software for WM6, secure in the knowledge that it would run just as well on WP7 when that eventually came along. The lack of backwards-compatibility has killed WM6 stone cold dead as a commercial platform: no sensible commercial developer will develop for it at all, anymore, they'll skip straight to WP7 (if they even bother with a Microsoft version at all). Until the no-backwards-compatibility announcement happened, an upgrade was much less important; now, it really matters.
RAMMANN said:
I see the WM 6.5.x vs WP7 scenario to be a bit similar like Windows NT vs. Windows 95. Windows NT was mainly a network OS used in companies while Windows 95 was designed more for the end user that's supposed to play DirectX games and such. And in this case if you bought a PC with Windows NT you couldn't develop games which need to support newest DirectX technology....
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That's such a ridiculous analogy I hardly know where to begin.... Well, for starters, consider just how much Windows 95 software actually ran under NT - pretty much all of it did, with the only exception being games. And for those who needed gaming support, MS continued with fresh releases based on the Windows 95 development stream - 98, 98SE even ME - all of which could run virtually all NT-oriented software as well. Those releases didn't dry up until after full support for DirectX (and even improved DOS emulation) ended up in the NT line.
Microsoft here has done the equivalent of abandoning Windows completely and basing all of its future OS releases on UNIX - if you imagine that people running Windows would be unable to upgrade to the new UNIX OS when it came along. If they had done that, what do you think Windows software developers would have done? And how do you think people who had bought Windows PC's would have felt?
Shasarak said:
Microsoft here has done the equivalent of abandoning Windows completely and basing all of its future OS releases on UNIX - if you imagine that people running Windows would be unable to upgrade to the new UNIX OS when it came along. If they had done that, what do you think Windows software developers would have done? And how do you think people who had bought Windows PC's would have felt?
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Except WM is nowhere near Windows in terms of network effect... Very few people will notice the loss of WM applications (yeah, we here will certainly do, but most users won't, and even most software companies won't). WM has been going along its way to oblivion in terms of market share, and, frankly, we didn't see many (if any at all) big software guys pumping investment into the platform anyway.
Apart from "big" Windows I'd guess the biggest MS-driven market is the XBox. So they chose compatibility with that "ecosystem" over the WM one. Disappointing as it is, I think that it was the right decision for MS really.
If I may address a few things...Aaron Woodman has gone on record saying that there will be multitasking on the phone. Let me just drop an excerpt:
"Among the details unveiled by him in that interview, we can count the fact that there will be multitasking in the new operating system, although previous rumors pointed otherwise. However, the approach on applications is a little different than before, as they will be included/integrated with the hubs Windows Phone OS 7 sports, and this is something that Microsoft is set to detail at MIX10. The main idea, however, is that apps will be there, and that they will be selected so as to be in line with the new user experience the company is trying to promote."
So maybe I as well as microsoft have NO IDEA WHAT MULTITASKING IS. I'm not trying to make opinions and substantiate them with evidence...I'm looking at the evidence and drawing a conclusion from it. M$ says there will be multitasking in their platform then I have to conclude that there will be multitasking even if I haven't personally seen the way it will be handled on a bigger scale. Trying to prove otherwise without any info is just reckless. Now of course it doesn't seem that they are multitasking in the traditional way and I am curious to see exactly how the system is multitasking but if I may speculate I think it deals with the back button. It seems everytime you switch tasks you press the home button then go into your hub of what you are going to do...once you finish you press the home button and go into the next task...since we know the back button doesn't lead to the Homescreen, maybe the back button leads through all the previous tasks in the order that you went through them. That would be simple and unobtrusive. Thats just my speculation based upon the videos I've seen so far...prove me wrong please.
Also about being blindside you're right it was a shock to most. I think M$ has gone on record saying they will still support WM as WPclassic(WPC) so i don't think you guys have just been outright abandoned...but. I wonder, with all the issues that you are labelling about WP7 but still complaining that the HD2 wont be able to upgrade to it, which side of the fence do you really sit on. You can't really be on both sides. But while I'm being prudent HTC has gone on record many times saying the HD2 will be upgradable to WP7, M$ has said that it doesn't plan on upgrading the device. They site the three button crap as a reason but interestingly enough Tony Wilkinson, Microsoft Australia's Business Operations Director, has said that "there are some hardware components that the HD doesn't have." Could this be why the HD2 coming to Tmoble seems to be a beefier version? We don't know but its always fun to speculate. Since M$ hasn't offically released a FULL spec list we have no idea but we will know at MIX10. Hell maybe M$ has no plan on upgrading HD2 but they are leaving it solely up to the manufactures to deliver on that which is why there are 2 conflicting views coming from HTC and M$...who knows right now. But based on the facts these are likely conclusions.
I won't bother with any other thing said because its more off topic..I don't really care whether people think that people will stop developing on 6.5.X just because WP7 is released... they obviously underestimate this site. Hell what more do people need?
~style~
vangrieg said:
Except WM is nowhere near Windows in terms of network effect... Very few people will notice the loss of WM applications
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HD2 users will, which is why they're angry at the lack of an upgrade path.
Shasarak said:
HD2 users will, which is why they're angry at the lack of an upgrade path.
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Some of them will, some won't. I am an HD2 user and I don't care, I don't want to own it for another year anyway, I'd happily exchange it right now if there were something better. I'm sure most HD2 users don't even know what OS their device is running (I know my wife wouldn't know). So we're talking about a few hundred thousand users max. And that's just the user side. A commercial WM developer network is pretty much non-existent right now, apart from SPB, Resco and a couple other small firms.
Well done. I completely agree. I'm looking forward to it. Most users are just bitter and don't want change. I think the main worry with the cooks or other users is that is that it won't offer the amount of customization of 6.5 and below, but they fail to forget that the Iphone is boring until you jailbreak, in the process opening up many possibilities. I think the same will be said for WP7S
And I think most arguments against the WM7 is more "spiritual" than practical. people argue against it because it doesn't have functions they don't use in practice but as excuses for various reasons.
For Example:
-Multitasking.
I may be a new WM user, I do use multitasking, but ONLY because applications in WM takes ages to load. Like EBPocket that I simply leave it running in the background all the time, because it takes like 2 minutes to load. IF it starts instantly, like iPhone apps, there is no reason for me to have it running in the background. At the end of the day, how often do you truly have to use multitasking? 2 other simple features will eliminate the need of multitasking almost completely: saving previous state before quitting and instant launch.
Plus, I think some obvious multitasking support exists in may devices, like music playback in the background. Maybe your third-party program won't work like that in WM7, but why do you need one anyway if the default one doesn't suck in the first place?
-Customization.
I'm really sorry, but so far I have NOT SEEN A SINGLE good custom theme/icon or skin. Even SPB mobile shell looks lame and crappy and outdated. Until now, I have been unable to find any customization that will make my phone look better than the original titanium home, except HTC rip-offs.
I feel terribly sorry but you programmers need to improve some artistic creativity, or at least make a UI that actually looks exactly like the iPhone, instead of something that is kind of like iPhone, but with lame colored icons on the right upper corner. Or an iPhone menu with pages of ugly icons. Seriously, they don't even come close to the real iPhone, NOT EVEN CLOSE! they may work the same but they don't even feel close, they hurt my eyes.
respect to your efforts, but the facts are clear, you don't have what it takes to make a commercial and professional UI, Or you'd be making one right now.
Seriously, You can't make a nice UI with a few Photoshop Layer Styles, it takes a lot more than that. There is also a trade off between functionality and appearance. If you can make the Iphone UI as good as it is, and have all the new features you want, you might as well talk to Apple for a nice new job.
-Marketplace
So far, the only useful and working apps I have been able to find are:
Google Maps
EBPocket
Opera Mobile 10
Yea... that's about it.... and both of them are available on the iPhone.
Oh actually, I'm sorry. there are a huge number of other useful things, like file managers, registry tweakers, bug fixes abd ect....
But wait, why on earth should we use these anyway? Maybe it's cause most WM devices have problems and we have to fix them in place of the developers?
The WM systems to me, is just a big pile of mess. When I download a program, not only do I NOT know if it will work, I don't know if it is compatible with my other stuffs, I don't know what side effects it will have (which WM programs tend to have a lot), and I don't even know my device will boot after I install it.
The problem is clear, individual developers can't make quality apps in general. The variety in WM devices, versions, and simple difficulty in developing makes this worse. Most Apps are not finger friendly, they don't support large screen, they don't support gestures, and they mostly don't support anything but internet and the CPU itself.
So,do you have to do everything on your phone painfully. Or do you want to do the most common ones perfectly?
jacobgong said:
And I think most arguments against the WM7 is more "spiritual" than practical.
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It really depends on what you mean by "spiritual". I get the feeling you're trying to debase consumer principles by using scare quotes and barely-apropos nouns however.
The problem with the modern corporate climate -- despite what people want to believe and what people say -- isn't the companies. Companies -- by definition -- are monolithic groupings that exist solely to produce profit. This instinct -- to produce profit -- is held in check by government regulation and consumers.
The government regulates through the law, and the consumer speaks through how he spends his money.
The problem with corporations nowadays isn't corporations, as some people seem to believe. The problem is that the government and consumers aren't doing their jobs. The government (at least in the United States) refuses to regulate corporations to the extent that is necessary (if you're going to be an idiot and try and argue this, why don't you just look at 2008 for a bit), and consumers have lost the ability to spend their money in a way that's in line with their beliefs.
People "talk the talk" but they don't "walk the walk". That is, they talk crap about a company, and how "evil" the company is, and yet patronize it nonetheless. The company exists solely to produce profit, so as long as you're patronizing them, they don't care what you say about them, because their ends are fulfilled.
This is what it comes down to -- for me -- with Apple, and now, Microsoft. Before I had genuine respect for Microsoft and their profits. They didn't try and over-step their bounds. They created products, and once those products were created and purchased, you could essentially do whatever you wanted with them.
Now they're becoming Apple-esque -- trying to tell people what they want, trying to tell people what they can and cannot do -- and I for one am not willing to encourage these companies with my money. As soon as they start down that slippery slope I -- being a good consumer who understands how to speak with his money -- stop patronizing them.
jacobgong said:
people argue against it because it doesn't have functions they don't use in practice but as excuses for various reasons.
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Click to collapse
I guess you really enjoy talking out of your ass.
People use these functions. They really do. I'm sorry that you're such a brain-dead moron that you can't figure out how to get more out of your phone than the blatantly obvious, I really am, but just because you're a vegetable doesn't mean we all are.
jacobgong said:
-Multitasking.
I may be a new WM user, I do use multitasking, but ONLY because applications in WM takes ages to load. Like EBPocket that I simply leave it running in the background all the time, because it takes like 2 minutes to load. IF it starts instantly, like iPhone apps, there is no reason for me to have it running in the background. At the end of the day, how often do you truly have to use multitasking? 2 other simple features will eliminate the need of multitasking almost completely: saving previous state before quitting and instant launch.
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Click to collapse
I guess you don't understand the idea of "background processing". Sure, saving state sounds like multi-tasking, but it really isn't.
Imagine this: Your friend freezes totally and is unable to move anytime you're not with him. You drop him off to go for a run, and are going to go to the shops and then pick him up when you're done. With the restriction that he freezes totally when you're not with him, when you return he'll be in basically the same place where you left him. He doesn't have to restart his run, sure, but he hasn't actually accomplished his goal in the time you were away, so you have to stay with him while he runs, which you don't want to do, because if you did, you'd be running.
This is what happens with saving state. Last weekend I took a trip to Vancouver with a few buddies, and had the GPS tracking and directing us. My buddy who was riding shotgun was playing with my phone -- web browsing, putting music on the car stereo, responding to SMSes and e-mails for me, the works -- but the GPS app kept going in the background, tracking our position.
In a non-multi-tasking environment -- even with saving state -- this wouldn't've worked. As soon as he tried to go to WMP, or Outlook Mobile, or Opera Mobile, the GPS app would've had its state saved, and would've stopped, so when we wanted to just check our position to get the next direction or see how far we had to go, we couldn't just switch back to the GPS app briefly, we would have to wait for our GPS position to be reacquired.
That's bull****.
Also, might I remind you that this is 2010? We've had multi-tasking operating systems since before 1970 (the year UNIX came out). That's 40 years genius. Anyone who says that they ("they" being Microsoft, Apple, or whoever else) can't put multi-tasking in a phone operating system is a moron...
...so it's fitting that you're defending this position.
jacobgong said:
Plus, I think some obvious multitasking support exists in may devices, like music playback in the background. Maybe your third-party program won't work like that in WM7, but why do you need one anyway if the default one doesn't suck in the first place?
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Click to collapse
It's about options you fascist.
I shouldn't have to rely on the default apps -- no matter how good they are -- if I don't want to.
An operating system is a platform, not an appliance.
Pull your head out of your ass.
jacobgong said:
-Customization.
I'm really sorry, but so far I have NOT SEEN A SINGLE good custom theme/icon or skin. Even SPB mobile shell looks lame and crappy and outdated. Until now, I have been unable to find any customization that will make my phone look better than the original titanium home, except HTC rip-offs.
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Click to collapse
I like how you go on this quasi-rant with things like "[...] NOT SEEN A SINGLE good [...]" and "Even [...] lame and crappy and outdated" and "unable to find any customization that will make my phone look better than [...] original titanium [...]", and then you go and ruin it with "[...]except HTC rip-offs".
You realize that whole "except" invalidated your entire premise right? Did you even think before you wrote that? You realize that with WP7S that "except" will be impossible, right?
You are so unthinkably stupid, I don't even know why I'm bothering to respond to you.
jacobgong said:
-Marketplace
So far, the only useful and working apps I have been able to find are:
Google Maps
EBPocket
Opera Mobile 10
Yea... that's about it.... and both of them are available on the iPhone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Actually Opera Mobile 10 isn't really available on the iPhone, since Apple is a bunch of fascist pigs and doesn't allow 3rd party browsers, kind of the way Microsoft is going.
jacobgong said:
Oh actually, I'm sorry. there are a huge number of other useful things, like file managers, registry tweakers, bug fixes abd ect....
But wait, why on earth should we use these anyway? Maybe it's cause most WM devices have problems and we have to fix them in place of the developers?
The WM systems to me, is just a big pile of mess. When I download a program, not only do I NOT know if it will work, I don't know if it is compatible with my other stuffs, I don't know what side effects it will have (which WM programs tend to have a lot), and I don't even know my device will boot after I install it.
The problem is clear, individual developers can't make quality apps in general. The variety in WM devices, versions, and simple difficulty in developing makes this worse. Most Apps are not finger friendly, they don't support large screen, they don't support gestures, and they mostly don't support anything but internet and the CPU itself.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't see how this is an argument for or against the WM platform.
The fact that you think developers for the platform are crappy, has no bearing on the platform itself.
I could write a piece of software that would ruin your Windows install if you ran it as Administrator...it'd be really easy actually.
Does that make Windows a bad platform, or does that make you a stupid asshole for running the program with Administrator rights?
As for the "apps" on the iPhone, nearly all the apps I've seen for the iPhone are totally and utterly useless. They encapsulate functionality that was already present in some form elsewhere in the operating system.
Like a Facebook app. You have a phone, with a web browser, that can simply go to Facebook, but instead you have a stupid app.
Or tip calculators. The phone has a calculator, but instead you get an app for that.
It's braindead...
...I guess I forgot who I was talking to.
As for file managers and the like, these are called "utilities", things that do useful things which aren't entertaining and expand the functionality of your device. Registry editors allow you to customize your device in a deep and advanced way that goes beyond the GUI. File managers allow you to open your device up and get truly powerful functionality out it.
Since I discovered the UNC support in the WM built-in file manager, I don't have to take the SD card out of my phone to put photos on my PC anymore, I just switch on the WiFi and copy/paste (but phones don't need that, right WP7S apologist?) the files across the WiFi to UNC shares on my PC, or on my file server.
But instead we should rely on nebulous Zune syncing, right?
jacobgong said:
So,do you have to do everything on your phone painfully. Or do you want to do the most common ones perfectly?
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Click to collapse
Doing things on my phone isn't painful. In fact none of the things on my phone are painful.
The only recurring issues I've had with my HD2 are because of 3rd party software. One of them -- HTC messaging -- is written by a 3rd party, so I don't see how you can bring that back on the platform (except by being a stupid ass...), and the other is Opera Mobile 10 BETA -- the word "BETA" would clue any intelligent human being into the fact that there are going to be quirks.
All platforms are going to be susceptible to the idiocy of 3rd party developers. Locking them down à la Apple or WP7S isn't the solution.
both of yalls post were to long to read cuz its late, but im for wp7 also
wm7 is going to kill this community i think
jacobgong said:
-Customization.
I'm really sorry, but so far I have NOT SEEN A SINGLE good custom theme/icon or skin. Even SPB mobile shell looks lame and crappy and outdated. Until now, I have been unable to find any customization that will make my phone look better than the original titanium home, except HTC rip-offs.
I feel terribly sorry but you programmers need to improve some artistic creativity, or at least make a UI that actually looks exactly like the iPhone, instead of something that is kind of like iPhone, but with lame colored icons on the right upper corner. Or an iPhone menu with pages of ugly icons. Seriously, they don't even come close to the real iPhone, NOT EVEN CLOSE! they may work the same but they don't even feel close, they hurt my eyes.
respect to your efforts, but the facts are clear, you don't have what it takes to make a commercial and professional UI, Or you'd be making one right now.
Seriously, You can't make a nice UI with a few Photoshop Layer Styles, it takes a lot more than that. There is also a trade off between functionality and appearance. If you can make the Iphone UI as good as it is, and have all the new features you want, you might as well talk to Apple for a nice new job.
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Click to collapse
Sorry to interrupt.. but have you even heard of Max Manilla, Max Sense or TouchXprience?? if not I would be more than glad to direct you to their forums!!
I am looking forward to WP7
WP7 certainly looks like a lovely interface and i am quite excited about it. I have enjoyed my WM6.x phone over the last few years - but I will be happy to step into the more consumer focused model that Microsoft has put forward.
Fa7my said:
Sorry to interrupt.. but have you even heard glad to direct you to their forums!!
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Click to collapse
yes, I have.
they may look fancy but they obviously lack a lot of polishing.
Spike15 said:
It really depends on what you mean by "spiritual". I get the feeling you're trying to debase consumer principles by using scare quotes and barely-apropos nouns however.
The problem with the modern corporate climate -- despite what people want to believe and what people say -- isn't the companies. Companies -- by definition -- are monolithic groupings that exist solely to produce profit. This instinct -- to produce profit -- is held in check by government regulation and consumers.
The government regulates through the law, and the consumer speaks through how he spends his money.
The problem with corporations nowadays isn't corporations, as some people seem to believe. The problem is that the government and consumers aren't doing their jobs. The government (at least in the United States) refuses to regulate corporations to the extent that is necessary (if you're going to be an idiot and try and argue this, why don't you just look at 2008 for a bit), and consumers have lost the ability to spend their money in a way that's in line with their beliefs.
People "talk the talk" but they don't "walk the walk". That is, they talk crap about a company, and how "evil" the company is, and yet patronize it nonetheless. The company exists solely to produce profit, so as long as you're patronizing them, they don't care what you say about them, because their ends are fulfilled.
This is what it comes down to -- for me -- with Apple, and now, Microsoft. Before I had genuine respect for Microsoft and their profits. They didn't try and over-step their bounds. They created products, and once those products were created and purchased, you could essentially do whatever you wanted with them.
Now they're becoming Apple-esque -- trying to tell people what they want, trying to tell people what they can and cannot do -- and I for one am not willing to encourage these companies with my money. As soon as they start down that slippery slope I -- being a good consumer who understands how to speak with his money -- stop patronizing them.
I guess you really enjoy talking out of your ass.
People use these functions. They really do. I'm sorry that you're such a brain-dead moron that you can't figure out how to get more out of your phone than the blatantly obvious, I really am, but just because you're a vegetable doesn't mean we all are.
I guess you don't understand the idea of "background processing". Sure, saving state sounds like multi-tasking, but it really isn't.
Imagine this: Your friend freezes totally and is unable to move anytime you're not with him. You drop him off to go for a run, and are going to go to the shops and then pick him up when you're done. With the restriction that he freezes totally when you're not with him, when you return he'll be in basically the same place where you left him. He doesn't have to restart his run, sure, but he hasn't actually accomplished his goal in the time you were away, so you have to stay with him while he runs, which you don't want to do, because if you did, you'd be running.
This is what happens with saving state. Last weekend I took a trip to Vancouver with a few buddies, and had the GPS tracking and directing us. My buddy who was riding shotgun was playing with my phone -- web browsing, putting music on the car stereo, responding to SMSes and e-mails for me, the works -- but the GPS app kept going in the background, tracking our position.
In a non-multi-tasking environment -- even with saving state -- this wouldn't've worked. As soon as he tried to go to WMP, or Outlook Mobile, or Opera Mobile, the GPS app would've had its state saved, and would've stopped, so when we wanted to just check our position to get the next direction or see how far we had to go, we couldn't just switch back to the GPS app briefly, we would have to wait for our GPS position to be reacquired.
That's bull****.
Also, might I remind you that this is 2010? We've had multi-tasking operating systems since before 1970 (the year UNIX came out). That's 40 years genius. Anyone who says that they ("they" being Microsoft, Apple, or whoever else) can't put multi-tasking in a phone operating system is a moron...
...so it's fitting that you're defending this position.
It's about options you fascist.
I shouldn't have to rely on the default apps -- no matter how good they are -- if I don't want to.
An operating system is a platform, not an appliance.
Pull your head out of your ass.
I like how you go on this quasi-rant with things like "[...] NOT SEEN A SINGLE good [...]" and "Even [...] lame and crappy and outdated" and "unable to find any customization that will make my phone look better than [...] original titanium [...]", and then you go and ruin it with "[...]except HTC rip-offs".
You realize that whole "except" invalidated your entire premise right? Did you even think before you wrote that? You realize that with WP7S that "except" will be impossible, right?
You are so unthinkably stupid, I don't even know why I'm bothering to respond to you.
Actually Opera Mobile 10 isn't really available on the iPhone, since Apple is a bunch of fascist pigs and doesn't allow 3rd party browsers, kind of the way Microsoft is going.
I don't see how this is an argument for or against the WM platform.
The fact that you think developers for the platform are crappy, has no bearing on the platform itself.
I could write a piece of software that would ruin your Windows install if you ran it as Administrator...it'd be really easy actually.
Does that make Windows a bad platform, or does that make you a stupid asshole for running the program with Administrator rights?
As for the "apps" on the iPhone, nearly all the apps I've seen for the iPhone are totally and utterly useless. They encapsulate functionality that was already present in some form elsewhere in the operating system.
Like a Facebook app. You have a phone, with a web browser, that can simply go to Facebook, but instead you have a stupid app.
Or tip calculators. The phone has a calculator, but instead you get an app for that.
It's braindead...
...I guess I forgot who I was talking to.
As for file managers and the like, these are called "utilities", things that do useful things which aren't entertaining and expand the functionality of your device. Registry editors allow you to customize your device in a deep and advanced way that goes beyond the GUI. File managers allow you to open your device up and get truly powerful functionality out it.
Since I discovered the UNC support in the WM built-in file manager, I don't have to take the SD card out of my phone to put photos on my PC anymore, I just switch on the WiFi and copy/paste (but phones don't need that, right WP7S apologist?) the files across the WiFi to UNC shares on my PC, or on my file server.
But instead we should rely on nebulous Zune syncing, right?
Doing things on my phone isn't painful. In fact none of the things on my phone are painful.
The only recurring issues I've had with my HD2 are because of 3rd party software. One of them -- HTC messaging -- is written by a 3rd party, so I don't see how you can bring that back on the platform (except by being a stupid ass...), and the other is Opera Mobile 10 BETA -- the word "BETA" would clue any intelligent human being into the fact that there are going to be quirks.
All platforms are going to be susceptible to the idiocy of 3rd party developers. Locking them down à la Apple or WP7S isn't the solution.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This post kills, but much of it is true
It really depends on what you mean by "spiritual". I get the feeling you're trying to debase consumer principles by using scare quotes and barely-apropos nouns however.
The problem with the modern corporate climate -- despite what people want to believe and what people say -- isn't the companies. Companies -- by definition -- are monolithic groupings that exist solely to produce profit. This instinct -- to produce profit -- is held in check by government regulation and consumers.
The government regulates through the law, and the consumer speaks through how he spends his money.
The problem with corporations nowadays isn't corporations, as some people seem to believe. The problem is that the government and consumers aren't doing their jobs. The government (at least in the United States) refuses to regulate corporations to the extent that is necessary (if you're going to be an idiot and try and argue this, why don't you just look at 2008 for a bit), and consumers have lost the ability to spend their money in a way that's in line with their beliefs.
People "talk the talk" but they don't "walk the walk". That is, they talk crap about a company, and how "evil" the company is, and yet patronize it nonetheless. The company exists solely to produce profit, so as long as you're patronizing them, they don't care what you say about them, because their ends are fulfilled.
This is what it comes down to -- for me -- with Apple, and now, Microsoft. Before I had genuine respect for Microsoft and their profits. They didn't try and over-step their bounds. They created products, and once those products were created and purchased, you could essentially do whatever you wanted with them.
Now they're becoming Apple-esque -- trying to tell people what they want, trying to tell people what they can and cannot do -- and I for one am not willing to encourage these companies with my money. As soon as they start down that slippery slope I -- being a good consumer who understands how to speak with his money -- stop patronizing them.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
really, I never thought about governments and evil corporations or anything like that. It's your freedom if you think arguing about such things make you more free and intelligent.
I guess you don't understand the idea of "background processing". Sure, saving state sounds like multi-tasking, but it really isn't.
Imagine this: Your friend freezes totally and is unable to move anytime you're not with him. You drop him off to go for a run, and are going to go to the shops and then pick him up when you're done. With the restriction that he freezes totally when you're not with him, when you return he'll be in basically the same place where you left him. He doesn't have to restart his run, sure, but he hasn't actually accomplished his goal in the time you were away, so you have to stay with him while he runs, which you don't want to do, because if you did, you'd be running.
This is what happens with saving state. Last weekend I took a trip to Vancouver with a few buddies, and had the GPS tracking and directing us. My buddy who was riding shotgun was playing with my phone -- web browsing, putting music on the car stereo, responding to SMSes and e-mails for me, the works -- but the GPS app kept going in the background, tracking our position.
In a non-multi-tasking environment -- even with saving state -- this wouldn't've worked. As soon as he tried to go to WMP, or Outlook Mobile, or Opera Mobile, the GPS app would've had its state saved, and would've stopped, so when we wanted to just check our position to get the next direction or see how far we had to go, we couldn't just switch back to the GPS app briefly, we would have to wait for our GPS position to be reacquired.
That's bull****.
Also, might I remind you that this is 2010? We've had multi-tasking operating systems since before 1970 (the year UNIX came out). That's 40 years genius. Anyone who says that they ("they" being Microsoft, Apple, or whoever else) can't put multi-tasking in a phone operating system is a moron...
...so it's fitting that you're defending this position.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes I know what Multitasking means, I run a quad-core 8-thread Intel Xeon desktop. I never said it's entirely not used, it's just really not that useful because even the example you gave me is a very rare case, which shows how often you really use it, not very.
It's about options you fascist.
I shouldn't have to rely on the default apps -- no matter how good they are -- if I don't want to.
An operating system is a platform, not an appliance.
Pull your head out of your ass.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
that's what made WM6.5 fail, thinking a phone OS is the same as a Desktop OS. it's not. the Phone is an appliance, not a general purpose electronic computer.
I like how you go on this quasi-rant with things like "[...] NOT SEEN A SINGLE good [...]" and "Even [...] lame and crappy and outdated" and "unable to find any customization that will make my phone look better than [...] original titanium [...]", and then you go and ruin it with "[...]except HTC rip-offs".
You realize that whole "except" invalidated your entire premise right? Did you even think before you wrote that? You realize that with WP7S that "except" will be impossible, right?
You are so unthinkably stupid, I don't even know why I'm bothering to respond to you
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I realize that "except" will be impossible, but I don't need it to be possible because the WM7 UI is a lot better than anything we've ever had. if nobody was able to make anything close to it, I don't expect anything better to be made any time soon.
and you are free to show me which of you freedom tweakers have made anything better than the HTC Sence/iPhone OS/HTC Android triple screen UI.
Actually Opera Mobile 10 isn't really available on the iPhone, since Apple is a bunch of fascist pigs and doesn't allow 3rd party browsers, kind of the way Microsoft is going.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
do I really care? the fact is the iPhone Safari browser browses the web better than a freakin netbook, it's a lot more fluid with multi-touch zoom and all that. Unlike Opera 10 on WM lags all the time and shows blanks when you zoom and pan.
I don't see how this is an argument for or against the WM platform.
The fact that you think developers for the platform are crappy, has no bearing on the platform itself.
I could write a piece of software that would ruin your Windows install if you ran it as Administrator...it'd be really easy actually.
Does that make Windows a bad platform, or does that make you a stupid asshole for running the program with Administrator rights?
As for the "apps" on the iPhone, nearly all the apps I've seen for the iPhone are totally and utterly useless. They encapsulate functionality that was already present in some form elsewhere in the operating system.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
if you didn't know, writing programs before the existence of operating systems was a pain in the ass, cause you can't use languages like C
Like a Facebook app. You have a phone, with a web browser, that can simply go to Facebook, but instead you have a stupid app.
Or tip calculators. The phone has a calculator, but instead you get an app for that.
It's braindead...
...I guess I forgot who I was talking to.
As for file managers and the like, these are called "utilities", things that do useful things which aren't entertaining and expand the functionality of your device. Registry editors allow you to customize your device in a deep and advanced way that goes beyond the GUI. File managers allow you to open your device up and get truly powerful functionality out it.
Since I discovered the UNC support in the WM built-in file manager, I don't have to take the SD card out of my phone to put photos on my PC anymore, I just switch on the WiFi and copy/paste (but phones don't need that, right WP7S apologist?) the files across the WiFi to UNC shares on my PC, or on my file server.
But instead we should rely on nebulous Zune syncing, right?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
the FaceBook app is there, because it makes it easier to access Facebook. If I try to access it with the web browser not only is it slow, laggy, power intensive. it's not optimized for finger use.
It's people like you who made the WM6.5 stylus and big battery a necessity.
as for the file syncing thing, yea I hate to have a syncing software like iTunes or whatever, I will hope it still works like thumbdrive drag and drop.
Doing things on my phone isn't painful. In fact none of the things on my phone are painful.
The only recurring issues I've had with my HD2 are because of 3rd party software. One of them -- HTC messaging -- is written by a 3rd party, so I don't see how you can bring that back on the platform (except by being a stupid ass...), and the other is Opera Mobile 10 BETA -- the word "BETA" would clue any intelligent human being into the fact that there are going to be quirks.
All platforms are going to be susceptible to the idiocy of 3rd party developers. Locking them down à la Apple or WP7S isn't the solution.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Opera 10 is no longer BETA, and nothing changed. you can keep dreaming about an iPhone Safari level browser.
jacobgong said:
-Customization.
I'm really sorry, but so far I have NOT SEEN A SINGLE good custom theme/icon or skin. Even SPB mobile shell looks lame and crappy and outdated. Until now, I have been unable to find any customization that will make my phone look better than the original titanium home, except HTC rip-offs.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Customization doesn't just have to do with looking good.
As you say...
There is also a trade off between functionality and appearance.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Customization allows the user to make this trade off, and choose for example a more functional user interface that impressionable consumers would find less attractive.
jacobgong you are obviously an iPhone fan, ie. you belong to the market share (iphone users) to which microsoft is focusing on with WP7.
Welcome to the microsoft world! So glad they managed to grab you! This means their strategy is actually working!
I am also for WP7. Who would say no to a silverlight/xna based GUI for our beloved WM OS? No multitasking/No Copy-paste etc. only applies to the GUI and the apps written for it.
This is actually a merge of worlds. MS is going to give us developers an opportunity to create apps for ex-iphone users like my friend jacobgong, if they manage to grab that share... And as I can see, they are already doing great!
This is good news.
jacobgong said:
I feel terribly sorry but you programmers need to improve some artistic creativity, or at least make a UI that actually looks exactly like the iPhone, instead of something that is kind of like iPhone, but with lame colored icons on the right upper corner. Or an iPhone menu with pages of ugly icons. Seriously, they don't even come close to the real iPhone, NOT EVEN CLOSE! they may work the same but they don't even feel close
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
LOL
This said after "And I think most arguments against the WM7 is more "spiritual" than practical."
LOL!!!
You made my day, man. As a nerd who lives for customization and for what we "can" do rather than what the unwashed masses "do" do (hurhur, doodoo), I died a little bit inside. XD Let my phone look like it's from the '70s! More nerd points! It can do a heck of a lot more than yours (okay, I have no idea what you use), and that's all that matters to me. Cool, eh? At least it's more "practical" than your line of reasoning!
Spike15, well said. Making masses into vegetables. As i see it, Queen gave masses high school education, enough earnings to have a holiday in Spain, buy few pints on the weekend and go to a football match, beyond that nobody as of vegetable masses likes Mr. jacobgong dont know where is Russia to say the least
jacobgong said:
Opera 10 is no longer BETA, and nothing changed. you can keep dreaming about an iPhone Safari level browser.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well and your dream will be to get Adobe Flash support on the iPhone, which will never happen. And a browser without flash is just 50%. So you are forced to use a crappy app for youtube etc. And for you to know: your such beloved Safari browser is insecure as hell. Just google "Safari vulnerabilities" and you will see. So go away and shove that ugly thing up your arse.
hi all members i very like it on this forums
I am also for WP7. Who would say no to a silverlight/xna based GUI for our beloved WM OS? No multitasking/No Copy-paste etc. only applies to the GUI and the apps written for it.
I use WM6.5 because it gives me the most desktop-like experience:
I can explore files and folders without limits
I can edit *.sys *.bat *.txt *.whatever files
I can use context menus (send to, cut copy paste, zip, mail, etc)
I can directly copy/download/use my desktop files (without the need for a sync software or any kind of permissions)
I can customize and rearange my desktop at will
I can find tons of free (or cheap) software everywhere
I can edit and tweak some DLLs
etc...
I have not tested WP7 personaly, but it seems like it is going to loose all of these desktop-like features in favour of a more closed, iPhone-clone experience.
AM I WRONG ???
I was SO concerned I just tested a new Android 2.2 phone.
At a first glance and to my surprise, the UI was boring and nearly non-customizable, there wasn't even a simple FILE EXPLORER preinstalled on it !!
Comming from WM6.5, Android made me feel like a caged bird...
Or am I mssing something ??
If WP7 is going in another direction, then, which other options do I have for a desktop-like pocket PC ??
A viliv N5 ??
I learned from an early age that sometimes things change and I have to adapt to new methods of doing things. But I remembered when I went from DOS 6.22 to Windows 95. I didn't have as much control through autoexec.bat and config.sys. I felt like I was losing a whole world. But I learned that there were new ways of doing things, and I had to adapt to the new paradigm shift that was taking place. I was around 13 at the time, so I didn't really understand it as much as I do today.
In the mobile space, things are moving away from being a mobile desktop and more of a window into certain services. You'll have to learn how to customize those devices to get them to fulfill your use case, and it won't be the same as the previous generation.
You are not right. The whole world still using Windows XP despite of titanic efforts of MS to clap us Vista. Windows 7 is slightly better but still XP is the best one. Same will happen with WP7. We will still use 6.5 and develop programs for it as it will be the better OS. I will not be surprised if I see 6.5 port for HD3 With so much power WM6.5 will work like charm on HD3.
gom99 said:
But I remembered when I went from DOS 6.22 to Windows 95. I didn't have as much control through autoexec.bat and config.sys. I felt like I was losing a whole world.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You sound like you never used DOS 6.22 and Win95... This statement is comical and if you weren't a retard accomplishing most of the same tasks in Windows were trivial. The only thing you couldn't load though those files in Windows 95 was EMM386.
Also, who went from DOS straight to Win95? Where were you from 91 to 95, sleeping?
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App
**** DOS and Win95. Windows NT 3.5 was where it's at!
Yeah, I actually ran it and everything NT beyond it. **** Win9x 4 lyfe.
gtrab said:
I use WM6.5 because it gives me the most desktop-like experience:
I can explore files and folders without limits
I can edit *.sys *.bat *.txt *.whatever files
I can use context menus (send to, cut copy paste, zip, mail, etc)
I can directly copy/download/use my desktop files (without the need for a sync software or any kind of permissions)
I can customize and rearange my desktop at will
I can find tons of free (or cheap) software everywhere
I can edit and tweak some DLLs
etc...
I have not tested WP7 personaly, but it seems like it is going to loose all of these desktop-like features in favour of a more closed, iPhone-clone experience.
AM I WRONG ???
I was SO concerned I just tested a new Android 2.2 phone.
At a first glance and to my surprise, the UI was boring and nearly non-customizable, there wasn't even a simple FILE EXPLORER preinstalled on it !!
Comming from WM6.5, Android made me feel like a caged bird...
Or am I mssing something ??
If WP7 is going in another direction, then, which other options do I have for a desktop-like pocket PC ??
A viliv N5 ??
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well it's to be seen in what way WP7 will develop.
I have identical concerns.
As for Android 2.2, it actually has almost everything WM6.5 has.
If not preinstalled, it's on app store. Task managers, file managers....
I just really don't like Android feel and look.
I stay with WM 6.5 for some time too.
Maemo, maybe?
So... there are no current real options to my concerns
Well, you may be right: I may have to "adapt" (evolve) and quit my WM6.5 cooking/tweaking freedom ...or go find a good phone software for a Viliv N5
I am seriously considering the N5 possibility
Lets see what happens when WP7 comes out
I am amazed how people in this forum are not happy with the new direction WP7 is taking... Let me explain why.
While I love doing everything the OP has stated, I love doing it on my desktop/laptop because I find a use for it. I feel the need to customize and tweak the OS to fill my needs for some things, ie: task automation, background activites without me having to do anything, skins and so on and so forth.
While I did this on my TP2 as well, i slowly get bored of this for two reasons: 1°) the phone will never have the kind of power to do all of this without slowing in day to day use, which my TP2 does and my Diamond before that, and 2°) The phone is designed for a) call/text, b) access all my services seamlessly (Zune and Windows Live are my first priorities).
In 2010, people want access to services. They don't want to go into a registry. I mean, wtf should i go and edit something in HEX, or DWord or whatever in 2010? To gain something that will make my system unstable? No, users want seemless services, accessible from everywhere, and that is something that WP7 provides.
I feel that, if I have to do some editing of the OS, then I shouldn't have to spend 600 euros and the phone. At that price, the phone is supposed to have a top notch performance, which, when you half bake a OS just like WM 6.x, is not present.
Consumers need a phone that works. And the iPhone-clone as everyone here not open minded enough to see that calls it is a great opportunity for those who like the concept of the iPhone but do not like the Phone or the company itself.
WP7 is a paradigm shift. And as Kuhn said, the world needs paradigm shifts in order to progress. This is one of these shifts that the iPhone started, the Android continued and that WP7 will end.
It's a great era for the consumer. Open your mind.
NoWorthWhile said:
I am amazed how people in this forum are not happy with the new direction WP7 is taking... Let me explain why.
While I love doing everything the OP has stated, I love doing it on my desktop/laptop because I find a use for it. I feel the need to customize and tweak the OS to fill my needs for some things, ie: task automation, background activites without me having to do anything, skins and so on and so forth.
While I did this on my TP2 as well, i slowly get bored of this for two reasons: 1°) the phone will never have the kind of power to do all of this without slowing in day to day use, which my TP2 does and my Diamond before that, and 2°) The phone is designed for a) call/text, b) access all my services seamlessly (Zune and Windows Live are my first priorities).
In 2010, people want access to services. They don't want to go into a registry. I mean, wtf should i go and edit something in HEX, or DWord or whatever in 2010? To gain something that will make my system unstable? No, users want seemless services, accessible from everywhere, and that is something that WP7 provides.
I feel that, if I have to do some editing of the OS, then I shouldn't have to spend 600 euros and the phone. At that price, the phone is supposed to have a top notch performance, which, when you half bake a OS just like WM 6.x, is not present.
Consumers need a phone that works. And the iPhone-clone as everyone here not open minded enough to see that calls it is a great opportunity for those who like the concept of the iPhone but do not like the Phone or the company itself.
WP7 is a paradigm shift. And as Kuhn said, the world needs paradigm shifts in order to progress. This is one of these shifts that the iPhone started, the Android continued and that WP7 will end.
It's a great era for the consumer. Open your mind.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And I say - it's bull****. Complete.
I agree the OS has to work, sure. That's why developers should work hard to bring the possibilites to the user, not cut them because it's difficult.
I agree that I should not be forced to tweak any registry when I don't need to and I should be able to seamlessly use a device without bigger effort.
However I disagree with making people idiots.
And why the hell you tell me what I should do with the device?
Wake up. Pocket devices are the future. I don't see a ****ing reason why after 10 years of development suddenly many options are OUT. There's no reason to take away the features just because of UI change.
But the biggest bull**** you say is with "it just works"...
If I can compose an email, but cannot add many different attachements to it because of system limitation, IT DOESN'T ****ING WORK at all!!!
It doesn't "just works". It does things Microsoft imagined I want to do, instead of leaving me more options. There are many simple task which simply "it just doesn't work"
doministry said:
And I say - it's bull****. Complete.
I agree the OS has to work, sure. That's why developers should work hard to bring the possibilites to the user, not cut them because it's difficult.
I agree that I should not be forced to tweak any registry when I don't need to and I should be able to seamlessly use a device without bigger effort.
However I disagree with making people idiots.
And why the hell you tell me what I should do with the device?
Wake up. Pocket devices are the future. I don't see a ****ing reason why after 10 years of development suddenly many options are OUT. There's no reason to take away the features just because of UI change.
But the biggest bull**** you say is with "it just works"...
If I can compose an email, but cannot add many different attachements to it because of system limitation, IT DOESN'T ****ING WORK at all!!!
It doesn't "just works". It does things Microsoft imagined I want to do, instead of leaving me more options. There are many simple task which simply "it just doesn't work"
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am in NO way trying to tell you what you should or shouldn't do with your device. I'm merely asking you what the hell you are doing with a small size device that requires THAT amount of customisation/tweaking.
Yes, it does just work. If you need to write a freaking novel on your phone, then sorry, but something's wrong in your head.
Tell me what do you want that WP7 can't do? Heavy text editing? You've got your PC for that. A phone is a phone, NOT a pc. What you need is a Tablet/Slate with Data service.
NoWorthWhile said:
I am in NO way trying to tell you what you should or shouldn't do with your device. I'm merely asking you what the hell you are doing with a small size device that requires THAT amount of customisation/tweaking.
Yes, it does just work. If you need to write a freaking novel on your phone, then sorry, but something's wrong in your head.
Tell me what do you want that WP7 can't do? Heavy text editing? You've got your PC for that. A phone is a phone, NOT a pc. What you need is a Tablet/Slate with Data service.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Opinions like that are the most destructive **** in this world.
There's rather something wrong in your head, and you exactly try to judge what I should do with my device - again. And you tell me what I need. Bravo.
Maybe you don't have need to do much with your phone but that's your choice.
People use devices in extensive way for decade, wake up. Why the hell should I be like you?!
I was able to do everything I want last 10 years, so I just want to continue like that.
doministry said:
Opinions like that are the most destructive **** in this world.
There's rather something wrong in your head, and you exactly try to judge what I should do with my device - again. And you tell me what I need. Bravo.
Maybe you don't have need to do much with your phone but that's your choice.
People use devices in extensive way for decade, wake up. Why the hell should I be like you?!
I was able to do everything I want last 10 years, so I just want to continue like that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
In what way is that destructive? Change is good, and in this case, you've also got the choice of what to buy (or not buy). You seem unhappy with WP7 for reasons of your own, and I respect that, but what IS destructive is what you are doing right now: denying evolution.
Let me give you one example:
http://www.ted.com/talks/john_under...urce=direct-on.ted.com&utm_content=site-basic
It's still far away in the future, but I'm guessing (guessing, not stating) that it wont likely be as customizable as Windows 7, or say, XP. Will THAT be a bad thing? It WILL eventually change the way we interact with PCs. No more folders, no more registrys, no more freaking .sys .bat. dll files, but instead, content. Videos, Music, Documents, Websites, and so on so forth. Is THAT a bad thing?
I am in no way telling you to be like me, that's the point of humans, we are all different. But I can twist the matter in any way possible, for me, my cellphone is a CONSUMPTION device. Not a device that is meant for creation. And that is limited by the physical form factor of the device. No OS, good or bad, old or new will ever be able to achieve the level of usability you seek to achieve. If WM 6.x seems the choice for you, then stick with it.
OK, after reading every comment, well...
You talk "smart phone"
I dreaam "pocket PC" (read it again: a PC that fits in my pocket)
If I "just" wanted a smart phone that really works, I would have got the iPhone ages ago, but I AM DIFFERENT, I am not the standard joe looking for a phone that makes phones calls and can tweet, NO !!
I need to carry my PC on my pocket (or at least a mirror of my PC) !!
But I am learnig that is NOT happening... Santa didn't hear my WP7 wishes...
Then,
May HTML5 save us from "mobile versions" of web pages
and May Moore's Law put a full Win7 PC on my pocket in the near future !!
PS: DO YOU guys really think omitting cut/paste from their new mobile OS is really EVOLUTION ??
Isn't it going BACKWARDS ??
Tech Inquisition ?? (stick with what we offer you, don't dream different things)
What's next ??
Will I have to pray a savior god and pay a monthly portion of my incomes for my phone too ??
Now I get what you really want. Then, by all means, I apologize.
But, yeah, as I already told you, the closest thing to what you want is either Winmo 6.5, or a 7 inch Archos with Win7 on it...
To answer to your PS: Yes, omitting copy/paste and multitasking is a mistake, but I trust MS to bring it along down the road someday. As I rarely ever use copy/paste I don't really care, but I care most about Multitasking.
And my own PS: I'm not an average Joe either, I always hate the iPhone not for the device itself, but for the ecosystem behind it, because let's face it, that's where the pocket devices are headed to: the center of an ecosystem.
EDIT:
gtrab said:
Will I have to pray a savior god and pay a monthly portion of my incomes for my phone too ??
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It already happened: the god is Steve Jobs, and you pay a Data Plan every month [Humour]
Also, I realize I answered to the wrong person xD
gtrab said:
If I "just" wanted a smart phone that really works, I would have got the iPhone ages ago, but I AM DIFFERENT, I am not the standard joe looking for a phone that makes phones calls and can tweet, NO !!
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iPhone can do much more than that. As I took a temporary trip to the dark side and use an iPhone now I want WP7 more and more each day because MS seem to tackle some of the most annoying problems with this device - WP7 has a much better mail client, a much more useful calendar and non-intrusive notifications, things that piss me off every day on the iPhone. The hadware Back button is also sorely missing on Jesus Phone.
N8ter said:
You sound like you never used DOS 6.22 and Win95... This statement is comical and if you weren't a retard accomplishing most of the same tasks in Windows were trivial. The only thing you couldn't load though those files in Windows 95 was EMM386.
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MSDOS was much less arcane than Windows 95 ie it was fairly easy to see and understand what was being loaded at startup. That's what I was referring to.
N8ter said:
Also, who went from DOS straight to Win95? Where were you from 91 to 95, sleeping?
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I don't get what you mean by this...wasn't win95 the integration of MSDOS & Windows Line? What was I supposed to be using? Windows 3.1 more of a GUI on top of DOS. I only loaded windows if I wanted to run a program in windows.
NoWorthWhile said:
In what way is that destructive? Change is good, and in this case, you've also got the choice of what to buy (or not buy). You seem unhappy with WP7 for reasons of your own, and I respect that, but what IS destructive is what you are doing right now: denying evolution.
Let me give you one example:
http://www.ted.com/talks/john_under...urce=direct-on.ted.com&utm_content=site-basic
It's still far away in the future, but I'm guessing (guessing, not stating) that it wont likely be as customizable as Windows 7, or say, XP. Will THAT be a bad thing? It WILL eventually change the way we interact with PCs. No more folders, no more registrys, no more freaking .sys .bat. dll files, but instead, content. Videos, Music, Documents, Websites, and so on so forth. Is THAT a bad thing?
I am in no way telling you to be like me, that's the point of humans, we are all different. But I can twist the matter in any way possible, for me, my cellphone is a CONSUMPTION device. Not a device that is meant for creation. And that is limited by the physical form factor of the device. No OS, good or bad, old or new will ever be able to achieve the level of usability you seek to achieve. If WM 6.x seems the choice for you, then stick with it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, evolution! I love evolution!
That's why WP7 UI paradigm appeals to me!
That's why after many years bricky phones with phonebook and tiny monochromatic screens were replaced by multi functionality devices
with colour touchscreens, cameras and also many COMPUTER functions!
With operating systems inside! Why? Do give MORE functionality!!!!
Evolution means MORE and BETTER.
If you take away functionality for UCLEAR reasons it's a step back!
They do it for the policy. Removing normal file access is rubbish and limiting the user
without any real functionality reasons.
By the way I was never limited by the phone's form factor.
And instead of dragging everywhere ****ing laptop I have all in my pocket, ready!
And your arguments are not credible for me.
And Apple were saying the same, just to bring everything BACK, making big Bang! with it.
You say it's just a phone yet all WP7 devices actually CONTAIN all the applications which make it almost pocket PC. Just apps itself are limited.
Bull****. It's just a policy.
So, in your opinion, what is the reason for this policy? Insanity? Uncontrollable desire to copy everything Apple does, as some people love to suggest? Or maybe there is something they found worth considering?
vangrieg said:
So, in your opinion, what is the reason for this policy? Insanity? Uncontrollable desire to copy everything Apple does, as some people love to suggest? Or maybe there is something they found worth considering?
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Policy?
Keep their OS locked so less people have any access to it?
Make a devices unified in UI so they reach a brand feel on the phones regardless of producer?
Control the stability in processes which are much harder to control?
Prevent unauthorized copying?
Differentiate phone and PC so the user is somehow forced to have both devices?
I could probably find more...
As for Apple: well, no - blind copying no. But copying some things definitely yes.
Of course they have many innovative ideas and I think it has big chance, considering it is really modern and offers great new UI paradigm.
I have done a search and hopefully this hasn't been raised under the WP7 forum yet. Sorry if it has.
One thing that wound me up about phones recently is the lack of profiles or being able to automatically switch between profiles (meeting, flight mode etc.) depending on location or entries in the diary.
Under Winmo 6.x I have been using the excellent G-Profile by Ageye which after a bit of set up and messing around did everything you wanted it to. It ate the battery a bit sometimes but awesome bit of kit and you could pretty much forget about it as you knew it would handle everything for you.
So far in all the specs and demos I've seen there doesn't seem to be any mention about if this is already built in and I've not seen in the market place anything which will cater for this.
Does anyone know what the score is on automatic profiles either 3rd party or part of the OS?
Sorry to bump this, but now that people have the WP7's, has anyone had a look to see what provision if any, there is for profiles?
I'd do it myself but my upgrade isn't due till next Wednesday
I use Phone Alarm for the same thing on WM6.5 Its creator has said he cannot port to WM7 as 3rd party apps are not permitted the necessary access to system resources.
I too am waiting to see if MS has included this functionality in the OS but somehow I doubt it at this stage. Manual profiles at most I would expect.
This is why I suspect Android is my next stop, although I would personally take an upgraded TP2 with better specs (see the HD7 Pro or whatever it is ) running WM6.5.
Incidentally - no one talks about new WM6.5 phones and yet we continually get new builds leaked that are being developed......
Have contacted the developer of G-Profile (Ageye), so just waiting for a response. They have already made 3 WP7 apps so that could be good news
Have received a response from Ageye. and he says
"the restrictions from WP7 don't allow to develop apps like G-Profile or G-Alarm (yet). So I'm sorry - but we'll keep on developing for WP7 and maybe it will be possible some day..."
I personally believe that this is a massive shame and can't really understand MS logic at restricting these types of apps from being developed and released. These apps under winmo 6.5 proved to be very successful and extremely useful and would IMO make the phone a little more appealing to the business community or has MS decided to forget about their bread and butter market?
Lets hope MS change their policy and soon
Automatic profile switching is something I'm really going to miss.
I doubt Microsoft will change their policy anytime soon. The whole point of not allowing 3rd party developers this type of access to the phone is to maintain stability, performance and battery life.
Microsoft said it will create exceptions for some developers but only if it's absolutely necessary. I don't now if ageye or even a company like spb is large enough to convince Microsoft.
Unless a new WM6.5 phone comes out in the next few months, then Android here I come I think.....
Totally understand them trying to improve battery life. Think it's one of the main gripes of everyone with any type of smart phone but they need to get a happy medium between the functionality that we, the consumer have become used to and expect from our future devices of which WP7 is or supposed to be.
It is possible to become too blinkered and obsessed with a stated goal and I think that is what MS have been. Automatic profiles, whether built into the OS or third party is pretty essential in business and personal life - at least it has been for me.
I would agree.
I still wonder if we will see any more WM6.5 phones. My gut tells me that the HD2 will have been the last decent one (Europe anyway), but there are still so many leaked builds etc coming out. Why are these being developed if the OEMs are not going to make the phones. If they could take the HD7 Pro, add a SD card slot and put WM 6.5.3 or whatever on it (and call it say the Touch Pro 3), I would probably even break the habit of a lifetime and buy it sim free. To a lesser extent as the specs are lower, even the Desire Z would be OK and probably needs no hardware changes.