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When I bought my Nexus, one of the main attractions was NFC. Sure, Google Wallet is pretty cool, but the novelty is wearing off. I don't have any real uses for NFC tags. And I only know one other person with a Nexus, so Beam is pretty much useless.
One of the benefits of NFC that I was hoping for was card emulation. I thought I'd be able to head to my school, get the access keys for our RFID cards and then emulate this with my Nexus so that I could open the doors and buy food with my phone - no need to remember the card anymore.
However, upon further reading, it seems that Google won't be allowing us to emulate cards freely. Maybe I've interpreted my findings incorrectly but... it looks like this is the reason why there aren't any emulation apps for Android other than bloody Wallet.
Card emulation is probably the biggest attraction of NFC - instead of carrying around all the diffeent ID cards for the buildings you enter, they can instead be stored on your phone.. It's not like Google Wallet will raise awareness of NFC, since Google seem to be trying their hardest to make sure that it fails (incredibly slow roll out, even for Google).
WhiterThanWhite said:
I don't have any real uses for NFC tags.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
For you, there is no point.
WhiterThanWhite said:
Card emulation is probably the biggest attraction of NFC - instead of carrying around all the diffeent ID cards for the buildings you enter, they can instead be stored on your phone...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It would be great if this can be implemented. However,
I don't know if NFC can communicate with existing RFID Card readers
There might be a security risk if copying and using RFID cards from your phone is easy
WhiterThanWhite said:
When I bought my Nexus, one of the main attractions was NFC. Sure, Google Wallet is pretty cool, but the novelty is wearing off. I don't have any real uses for NFC tags. And I only know one other person with a Nexus, so Beam is pretty much useless.
One of the benefits of NFC that I was hoping for was card emulation. I thought I'd be able to head to my school, get the access keys for our RFID cards and then emulate this with my Nexus so that I could open the doors and buy food with my phone - no need to remember the card anymore.
However, upon further reading, it seems that Google won't be allowing us to emulate cards freely. Maybe I've interpreted my findings incorrectly but... it looks like this is the reason why there aren't any emulation apps for Android other than bloody Wallet.
Card emulation is probably the biggest attraction of NFC - instead of carrying around all the diffeent ID cards for the buildings you enter, they can instead be stored on your phone.. It's not like Google Wallet will raise awareness of NFC, since Google seem to be trying their hardest to make sure that it fails (incredibly slow roll out, even for Google).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Simulate the card means you have to decrypt the card first.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using xda premium
Honestly, that sounds like a horrible idea. I definitely wouldn't want anybody to be able to just pick up one of my security/credit cards, emulate it, and use it to their hearts content at all
Besides, I believe most of those types of cards have proprietary api's for communicating / validating. Visa, for example, wouldn't just make their api available to anybody so that you can go out and clone other people's cards.
jav_ said:
Honestly, that sounds like a horrible idea. I definitely wouldn't want anybody to be able to just pick up one of my security/credit cards, emulate it, and use it to their hearts content at all
Besides, I believe most of those types of cards have proprietary api's for communicating / validating. Visa, for example, wouldn't just make their api available to anybody so that you can go out and clone other people's cards.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I understand that my first post was quite long, but you (and the two people who replied before you) didn't fully read it.
I'm not proposing that we allow people to be able to duplicate cards willy-nilly. Like I mentioned, I have the access keys to my school's system. You need the access keys to be able to read data from cards like these, so if some random person with a Nexus found your door card, they wouldn't simply be able to dupe it. They'd need the access keys, which I had to get from the IT department.
Well, that's my basic understanding of how it works anyways.
You could just tape your card to the back of your phone; nothing extra to carry.
Incredibly pessimistic rant that is extremely unique to you imo.
Google wallet is more about the convenience than a short-lived novelty item like a 'magic 8-ball'
Beam is nice additional feature and I dont think Google were expecting it to change lives!
Custom NFC tags are whatever you want them to be! Maybe you need to be a bit creative and tinker around with them?
Overall what you want out of NFC (which was never advertised as a feature anyhow so I don't know why your so disappointed) would have security implications and I think its better off we don't have this feature!
Disable it or sell the thing on?
The proper way to do this is to go to your school or the people who run your card readers and ask them to support an Android app. Being able to clone a card is a very bad idea for the reasons mentioned (and would be a horrible security flaw in any card system), but nothing is preventing NFC-based card systems from creating an app that will allow you to register your phone instead of a separate card. This is essentially what Yale Locks is doing.
I'm working on a android beam client for PCs. You need an nfc reader of course.
If anyone is interested, I can release it in a few weeks.
The OP has a point though. It's up to the NFC tag to implement security itself. The Galaxy Nexus cannot emulate tags but you can be sure there are devices that do (even nfc-forum.org mentions that feature).
Here's how to get card emulation working on a Nexus S.
Here's why Google didn't implement any API for card emulation mode.
ArmanUV said:
I'm working on a android beam client for PCs. You need an nfc reader of course.
If anyone is interested, I can release it in a few weeks.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am interested in your project. Can you please tell us more about what you are doing?
I would like to collaborate and contribute to some ideas.
Cheers,
Shailen.
I think this is a great idea if the security isn't compromised. Having to carry around one less key-card is always a plus!
Would give the NFC an actual legitimate use in my case
ArmanUV said:
I'm working on a android beam client for PCs. You need an nfc reader of course.
If anyone is interested, I can release it in a few weeks.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Let me know if you get this going!
There are access systems that include the ability for NFC smart phones to allow access to buildings/facilities. www.smartid.it is just one of those companies. Not all building access systems are compatible, however.
Just a fyi, cbord is testing nfc for access/etc card uses at Villanova.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...yPWjBA&usg=AFQjCNH_RLNSLsG7Jb-fxA8Q79soxj4KAg
So, be patient...
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk
I kinda agree with OP since to me NFC is useless. Google Wallet is blocked in my country (doesn't really matter since there are rather not many places where you can pay with NFC cards), the NFC tags have no use and therefore are hard to get, and I don't know a single person with a GNex, or in fact with any NFC enabled phone.
Just another cool gimmick to advertise GNex with. But if better developed and more wide-spread, it might actually come in handy.
Wilsonium said:
There are access systems that include the ability for NFC smart phones to allow access to buildings/facilities. www.smartid.it is just one of those companies.
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Click to collapse
JosepiOT said:
Just a fyi, cbord is testing nfc for access/etc card uses at Villanova.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think that smartID and CBord use the same principle.
CBord uses the CS Gold/aptiQmobile application. How does this application work? Does this app get special access to the secure element on the phone? Do the students use special phones with an OS customised by the company?
What if the phone's battery is dead, will one still be able to unlock doors?
I am interested in knowing how CBord implements this solution? I see that P2P might work in this case, where the student credentials are beamed to the terminal. However, when the battery is dead, one would wish to have a plastic card.
This is where card emulation is important. After enabling card-emulation on my Nexus S, I was still able to get the eSE ID even with the phone off.
What do you think?
I'm going to bump this as i have a ioProx card for the gym that i'd really, really like to have stored on my phone.
First of all, Google have full control of the NFC secure element in Nexus devices. This means that any company that wants to build an application that requires high security or the card emulation feature must beg Google for access. But Google are the good guys, right? Maybe not. Kaching wanted to build a NFC wallet for Android, but they say they've been given the cold shoulder by Google. Source here. How convenient that a potential competitor to Google Wallet is denied access, aye?
A related note is that card emulation is not possible for consumers in Android's current state. Let me give you an example of how card emulation would be useful in your everyday life: in your office or school you probably have NFC door access, and perhaps NFC printing and food payments. Many of these systems simply read the unique ID of the card and then associate that card ID with your account on the system. BlackBerry users have card emulation, meaning that they can use their phones with existing infrastructure. I've experienced this myself - my friend's BlackBerry can now be used to pay for his food and to gain entry to the building. Google have disabled this in Android - my Nexus spits out a random ID each time it's placed on the reader. If Google simply provided an application that allowed us to emulate one card at will, this would not be a problem. But they don't.
NFC could soon become a must-have feature on every phone. It certainly has the potential. However, the restrictions that Google have placed on NFC in Android will make gaining popularity very difficult.
Evangelion01 said:
First of all, Google have full control of the NFC secure element in Nexus devices. This means that any company that wants to build an application that requires high security or the card emulation feature must beg Google for access. But Google are the good guys, right? Maybe not. Kaching wanted to build a NFC wallet for Android, but they say they've been given the cold shoulder by Google. Source here. How convenient that a potential competitor to Google Wallet is denied access, aye?
A related note is that card emulation is not possible for consumers in Android's current state. Let me give you an example of how card emulation would be useful in your everyday life: in your office or school you probably have NFC door access, and perhaps NFC printing and food payments. Many of these systems simply read the unique ID of the card and then associate that card ID with your account on the system. BlackBerry users have card emulation, meaning that they can use their phones with existing infrastructure. I've experienced this myself - my friend's BlackBerry can now be used to pay for his food and to gain entry to the building. Google have disabled this in Android - my Nexus spits out a random ID each time it's placed on the reader. If Google simply provided an application that allowed us to emulate one card at will, this would not be a problem. But they don't.
NFC could soon become a must-have feature on every phone. It certainly has the potential. However, the restrictions that Google have placed on NFC in Android will make gaining popularity very difficult.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My question to you is, how is Nokia progressing with NFC in the development department? RIM?
Secure Element isn't something to be opened to every developer, because it totally undermines it's purpose if everyone has access to it.
I guess you don't fully understand the reason why Google disabled the card emulation.
As you said, some places use an NFC card for payments. Imagine someone that creates an app that emulates the card. But instead of the 10$ you've got on your card, the app tells that you've got $150 dollar on the card.
So, how can a school use NFC in a phone for payment? Simple, create a new NFC system with a secured(!) app, which transfers the data by NFC. Just like Google Wallet does. Google Wallet doesn't emulate an NFC card, it just transfers data though NFC and the receiver knows how to handle that data.
So, there are two things that need to be done:
- Create a new system that communicates with the device, instead of letting the system think it's just an NFC card.
- Wait until more users have got NFC in their phones. For now, only the HTC One series, the SGS3, the Nexus S and Galaxy Nexus contain NFC. Maybe a few more, but that's it.
adrynalyne said:
My question to you is, how is Nokia progressing with NFC in the development department? RIM?
Secure Element isn't something to be opened to every developer, because it totally undermines it's purpose if everyone has access to it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As I mentioned, RIM allows card emulation. BlackBerry devices are compatible with existing infrastructure without having to develop new applications or authentication methods.
The Commonwealth Bank of Australia is not 'every developer'. They're a bank for Christ's sake. Obviously Google can't open the secure element to layman developers, but they're locking out financial institutions too?
fifarunnerr said:
I guess you don't fully understand the reason why Google disabled the card emulation.
As you said, some places use an NFC card for payments. Imagine someone that creates an app that emulates the card. But instead of the 10$ you've got on your card, the app tells that you've got $150 dollar on the card.
So, how can a school use NFC in a phone for payment? Simple, create a new NFC system with a secured(!) app, which transfers the data by NFC. Just like Google Wallet does. Google Wallet doesn't emulate an NFC card, it just transfers data though NFC and the receiver knows how to handle that data.
So, there are two things that need to be done:
- Create a new system that communicates with the device, instead of letting the system think it's just an NFC card.
- Wait until more users have got NFC in their phones. For now, only the HTC One series, the SGS3, the Nexus S and Galaxy Nexus contain NFC. Maybe a few more, but that's it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As I mentioned, many schools don't actually write any information onto the NFC cards. The cards are empty. They simply link the UID of the card to a person's account on their backend system. This is how my school works. This way, there's absolutely no possibility of someone obtaining free food/money. And that's why my friend is able to use his BlackBerry on our system. Card emulation gives him a constant UID. My Nexus' p2p mode chucks out a random UID, meaning that it's not possible.
All Google would have to do to fix that is release an application that uses the secure element to allow us to emulate a single card with a constant UID. Then I too would be able to add my Nexus to the system.
Where are visa and MasterCard? Only when these giants get on board will nfc take off.
Trust me whenever the iphone has nfc than nfc will take off and become a "standard" among phones. Just like the front facing camera :banghead:
Sent from my myTouch_4G_Slide using Tapatalk 2
Hotshot205 said:
Trust me whenever the iphone has nfc than nfc will take off and become a "standard" among phones. Just like the front facing camera :banghead:
Sent from my myTouch_4G_Slide using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Wait, are you saying now that apple was a pioneer of a front facing camera?
My daughters brand new first gen iphone had a ****ty 2 meg camera (just one), while my n95 had a front facing one and a main one -5meg on carl zeis optics.
Imho, the only thing apple does well is design. The sales and the place on the market is through the design in a first place.
I remember how their phone wouldnt have mms, bluetooth connection (apart from a headset) and pretty much no file transfer or interconnectivity -a phone!!!
Symbian may be dead now, still, a much better system than osx as far as I installed and fiddled with both of them.
Sent from my ST18i using XDA
Regrettably, Hotshot205 is right. iPhone = traction. Lots of the features in iPhones existed on phones before they showed up on iPhone. But, all those fanboys will tell their friends and try to make phandroids jealous. Would you give a damn about Instagram if not for all the iTards going on and on about it? We had better photo-sharing apps before that, but nobody cared. Rumor has it the next iPhone will have NFC, and if it does, I bet we suddenly see a lot more use for a technology we had a year earlier.
Yeah that our hardware to be used at stores, to enable a wave and pay are not in alot of areas. Wait till visa and Samsung start pushing this hard during the Olympics
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
Wouldn't the Isis nfc system also be part of problem with nfc development?
Google isn't the only blockade to NFC
The NFC P2P protocol is what is most used for facilities access applications on Android. There are systems that take advantage of this on the market already. Some systems for access control are fundamentally incompatible. All our NFC enabled phones are capable of handling this protocol.
As for Google holding up NFC. I can see how card emulation can be a thorny issue for Google. You would need access to the secure element and that might provide unintended exploits for scams and fraud. Would you want to be liable?
Individual banks are responsible for including the established NFC features Visa and Mastercard have already implemented. Not only are they loathe to change but they are also tightwads and don't want to issue millions of cards with chips in them or build the infrastructure to manage them. The are also paranoid about access to the information stored in the NFC secure element.
Merchants also must not only purchase and install the POS terminals that are NFC enabled but they also must be troubleshooters and educators for people that have trouble using their NFC cards. I can't tell you how many times I've tried to use Google Wallet at a merchant but couldn't because the clerk didn't know how to use it. Of all the places I use my cards at, only about 15% actually have the POS terminal for NFC transactions.
And while I'm not including the typical XDA member, people are paranoid. My 85 year old father refuses to use his credit union Visa debit because he thinks it's less secure than writing a check. He comes to me to order stuff online with my AmEx card... he's never going to change.
As far as Apple is concerned, they will bring a monolithic install base that will bring critical mass to the party. All those iPhones running around asking to pay with their iBucks will probably push us over the cliff and you'll see a much more rapid deployment of POS readers. Nobody will know what Apple is doing until it's released. I've not even heard any credible chatter for inclusion of NFC in the next iPhone.
I know I've rambled on a bit. But I doubt Google is as big a barrier as you would think. I think it's more likely the banks, merchants, not having critical mass for full scale deployment, etc.
EDIT
I just found an article at Forbes outlining a patent from Apple about an iWallet using the bluetooth 4 low power features... interesting but very disruptive for the ecosystem.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/anthony...t-paves-way-for-next-iphone-to-be-an-iwallet/
Hotshot205 said:
Trust me whenever the iphone has nfc than nfc will take off and become a "standard" among phones. Just like the front facing camera :banghead:
Sent from my myTouch_4G_Slide using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You obviously don't know what your talking about. Android phones has FFC before iPhones. Many features appear in Android way before in iOS (I.e. notifications, NFC, face unlock, etc.). The list goes on.....
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
jokerzx12 said:
You obviously don't know what your talking about. Android phones has FFC before iPhones. Many features appear in Android way before in iOS (I.e. notifications, NFC, face unlock, etc.). The list goes on.....
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
He never said otherwise. He said it didn't "take off" until the iPhone.
jokerzx12 said:
You obviously don't know what your talking about. Android phones has FFC before iPhones. Many features appear in Android way before in iOS (I.e. notifications, NFC, face unlock, etc.). The list goes on.....
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Please try reading before bashing..
Wilsonium said:
The NFC P2P protocol is what is most used for facilities access applications on Android. There are systems that take advantage of this on the market already. Some systems for access control are fundamentally incompatible. All our NFC enabled phones are capable of handling this protocol.
As for Google holding up NFC. I can see how card emulation can be a thorny issue for Google. You would need access to the secure element and that might provide unintended exploits for scams and fraud. Would you want to be liable?
Individual banks are responsible for including the established NFC features Visa and Mastercard have already implemented. Not only are they loathe to change but they are also tightwads and don't want to issue millions of cards with chips in them or build the infrastructure to manage them. The are also paranoid about access to the information stored in the NFC secure element.
Merchants also must not only purchase and install the POS terminals that are NFC enabled but they also must be troubleshooters and educators for people that have trouble using their NFC cards. I can't tell you how many times I've tried to use Google Wallet at a merchant but couldn't because the clerk didn't know how to use it. Of all the places I use my cards at, only about 15% actually have the POS terminal for NFC transactions.
And while I'm not including the typical XDA member, people are paranoid. My 85 year old father refuses to use his credit union Visa debit because he thinks it's less secure than writing a check. He comes to me to order stuff online with my AmEx card... he's never going to change.
As far as Apple is concerned, they will bring a monolithic install base that will bring critical mass to the party. All those iPhones running around asking to pay with their iBucks will probably push us over the cliff and you'll see a much more rapid deployment of POS readers. Nobody will know what Apple is doing until it's released. I've not even heard any credible chatter for inclusion of NFC in the next iPhone.
I know I've rambled on a bit. But I doubt Google is as big a barrier as you would think. I think it's more likely the banks, merchants, not having critical mass for full scale deployment, etc.
EDIT
I just found an article at Forbes outlining a patent from Apple about an iWallet using the bluetooth 4 low power features... interesting but very disruptive for the ecosystem.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/anthony...t-paves-way-for-next-iphone-to-be-an-iwallet/
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The P2P protocol will not do anything for the proliferation of NFC. Existing infrastructure does not use P2P, and that Google are trying to push it is laughable. When a person sees that their phone can give them access to their buildings using hardware that has been deployed for years, they'll sit up and notice. That's the case with BlackBerry.
The banks are only an issue because they're trying to get a cut. They know that NFC is coming. HSBC have made NFC-enabled cards the standard now. Barclays have issued over 21 million NFC-enabled cards; they're even giving away NFC stickers and wristbands. Even over there in America, many banks issue NFC-enabled cards as standard.
The merchants are adopting NFC at a fast pace now. Just last week the UK Post Office announced it would be installing NFC terminals into all 11,500 of its stores by October. A number of supermarkets are rolling out NFC terminals. Many small mom-and-pop shops even have NFC terminals.
The biggest issue for Android and NFC is Google. The people that want to use NFC to its fullest can't, because Google Wallet is so limited in terms of supported banks/countries/devices. Then when competing companies want to make an NFC Wallet, Google shuts them out. There was a company who wanted to make NFC-based door locks, but Google wouldn't give them access to the secure element. Obviously you can't just give anyone access to the secure element, but Google are turning their backs on established businesses. They're stifling development. Why do you think the Nexus devices don't have MicroSD slots? It's very possibly because MicroSD cards can be used as removable secure elements which Google can't control. Same with SIM cards, which is why it's still unclear whether the Nexus devices can use SIM cards as secure elements.
Take the Galaxy S3. Its embedded secure element is controlled by Samsung, but it can also use the SIM card and the MicroSD card as secure elements. Samsung have already provided Visa and Lloyds access to the secure element for NFC payments at the Olympics. Can't say the same for Google and the Nexus devices.
Hotshot205 said:
Trust me whenever the iphone has nfc than nfc will take off and become a "standard" among phones. Just like the front facing camera :banghead:
Sent from my myTouch_4G_Slide using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yep. We can just hope they Apple will add NFC to the next iPhone.
Thanks for everyone who took up for my post. I never said apple made it they only made it cool or the "in the happening" I've used so many different phones its not even funny and my first phone with a front facing camera was the Nokia N95(still one of my favorite phones) Nokia been had ffc, I remember using fring for GOD sakes lol. So I'm not a noob to technology but I know apple marketing is crazy when they add new features that's been out before it hits their phone. Plus I wish the new Apple iphone have nfc. It will give nfc the push it needs to get off the ground. While android will still have cooler nfc apps in my opinion.
Sent from my myTouch_4G_Slide using Tapatalk 2
...ftr -
N95 release 2007, front camera-VGA, main-5Mpx (carl zeis)
3 years later...
Iphone 4 2010, front camera-VGA, main-5Mpx
btw, I put my old N95 to envirophone, was offered 65 Euro,
same age iphone-10 Euro.
lol
not to sound harsh now, Steve Jobs did a lot for the technology, design and innovation in all his areas, somehow, I dont think apple will do as well without him, just like they didnt do well without him before -just my opinion
sorry off topic
Nfc needs a universal standard or be narrowed to 2 or 3 standards for it to become competitive and viable. Apple may or may not give this momentum. Personally, i think they will. Too many companies want their cut for digitally touching your money. Sad but true. And hope i don't ever hear an apple user saying something stupid like apple invented nfc or smartphone payments. Been through that too many times with other 'established' or 'invented' technologies. Like apps. And voip. Even the smartphone itself. Ugh.
...
So with iPhone not including NFC on their new baby, are they trying to just develop their own service(so they can cash in as usual) or do you think they are trying to kill NFC payments all together for some system they "think up". Heck maybe they just want that to be the one new thing they add so people get the 5s in 6months...
It just seems like with Google Wallet being about the only option right now and the carriers trying to get their own going people will end up giving up on it if it doesnt get organized soon. Dont get me wrong I think its a great idea and I use GW on my S3, but of coarse had to hack it to get it going, so the average Joe will never even know what this is until its standard and available to any phone with NFC. Plus there is too much doubt , which I can sort of understand on NFC payments. I can see how some can think it might be open to fraud. But once they use it and see it requires a PIN and have to touch the pay pad they will understand its not just sort of across the room wifi beam that can be intercepted or something. I just think these guys need to get it going and educate the masses on it or this will fade out before it gets started. Just like QR codes, the US is always behind the times and once they catch on the rest of the world is thinking of the next big thing to replace that old system.
Hey I got one of these to do some hacking on - well, I got several of them, because taking one apart is very much a one-way trip.
As posted elsewhere, it's made of:
A 128x32 white OLED ( cdn-shop.adafruit.com/datasheets/UG-2832HSWEG02.pdf )
NRF51822 BLE chip (16K ram version)
Atmel ATmega16U2 (I assume to read the accelerometer at low power, but it also has USB - which appears to not be connected to the USB port unfortunately)
An accelerometer (STM C3H)
Azoteq IQS263 touch sensor (senses swipes and taps)
24C256 EEPROM connected to the Atmel
75mAh Lipo
..and some other stuff like a Lipo charger, vibration motor etc.
Typical cost is $15-$20 on ebay etc.
The cap-touch screen is quite good - detects swipes and taps reliably.
It's very well sealed - completely closed plastic molding. It looks to be fully waterproof to me.
Well... waterproof until I took a hacksaw to it. There's no way to disassemble it other than to (carefully) hacksaw/dremel the case open. Mine is still working fine, albeit in pieces..
I didn't see many photos of the guts online (just a couple) so or anyone else planning to hack on firmware for it, I found very convenient SWD and UART testpoints (under the OLED)...
Was figuring I might be able to find the time to do some alt firmware for it, because I quite like that Nordic chip, and it's a pretty decent waterproof BLE wrist-display with reasonable battery life (~7days people have said) and touch-sensor at a very attractive price.
I'll let you know what else I figure out about the hardware but first some teardown pics;
FULL PICS:
(oh man **** this forum not letting me post URLs... ok whatever, you figure this out..)
imgur.com/a/qTrSN
Samples images attached...
NOTE that test test points "RESET" and "CLK" are regular Cortex M0 SWDIO and SWDCLK, so just bust out the ST-Link/J-Link and have at it. Nice to have UART TX+RX too. Very civilized.
If I have time to get further into it I'll post more hw details on here.
Cheers,
DrTune
Yep J-Link works fine
Nice, works fine connected to a J-Link, can program it with NRFgo Studio, debug with Keil uVision, etc. Cake.
Ok when I have a sec I'll do some custom firmware for this thing, personally I'm going to use it as a user interface for a GPS+radio project for Burning Man - the I5+ should be perfect for the Playa as it's completely sealed, has vibration, decent battery life, nice OLED.
I really like this bracelet as a programmable toy - nice CPU, great price. I doubt I'll ever get around to programming the Atmel in there or using the accelerometer (it's not what I'm after) but as a two-way messaging device it should fit the bill nicely.
Well done my friend! Can't wait to see what you will come out with! Cheers
Do something perfect ? thank you
Sent from my E2333 using XDA-Developers mobile app
Hm just thinking about it there's quite a lot of fun little things you can do with a cheap watch w/touch sensor that vibrates that are a bit awkward to do with a phone... bear in mind I'm super busy (I do this kinda thing for a living) and the BLE range is probably pretty poor, but...
a) Finder for those absurdly cheap ($3 or so) "finder" keyfobs, just display RSSI (signal strength) and it'd be somewhat useful; at least to give you a "warmer/colder" feedback on your distance to the tag.
b) Vibrate when your friend comes into range (or any BLE device that's advertising) and let you send simple emoticon messages (again the range won't be great, but enough for when you're in a bar or whatever), kinda like a really basic emoticon walkie-talkie. This would suck down quite a lot of battery (b/c of scanning for advertising packets) but it's a thought
c) some sort of basic morse-code style tapping messager
d) unlock your front door (use any old BLE device, e.g. a $4 CC2541 BLE-to-serial dongle hooked up to a FET or a relay)
e) assuming I can sort out reading the accelerometer, you've got basically a button/slider (the touchscreen) plus a very rough motion sensor; maybe make it a GATT HCI device like a mouse or keyboard (not sure what the OS support is like for those but it's doable)
f) You could certainly interface it to a Banana Pi (with a CSR BLE dongle) or a C.H.I.P. (which has built-in BLE)...
g) then there's all the stuff you can do with modern android/iOS phones and BLE; caller ID etc etc - much of this is covered by the current IWOWN firmware... Haven't look at it a huge amount but there's sure to be some fun stuff not yet done by the stock fw...
h) Depending what OSes have HID-over-GATT keyboard support, you could tap your watch to enter passwords (fairly insecurely, but hey it's a fun hack)..
i) Trivial to make the thing act as an Apple iBeacon (or any vendor beacon really, it's just a custom advertising packet) - and that would have excellent battery life. You could make it a beacon detector also but the battery life would suck horribly (I guess you could tap the watch to scan and it could buzz when it found an iBeacon and display some txt from it )
j) BLE scanner, probably most useful to have it scan for specific GATT profiles or ad packets or MAC address ranges or whatever; same battery life caveat applies but there might be a fun application.
...there's a lot of simple projects basically, it's quite a nice toy in some limited ways.... well like I say I don't have time to implement a lot of this but if I can stick some code up on Github maybe people will take the ball and run with it...
drtune said:
Hm just thinking about it there's quite a lot of fun little things you can do with a cheap watch w/touch sensor that vibrates that are a bit awkward to do with a phone... bear in mind I'm super busy (I do this kinda thing for a living) and the BLE range is probably pretty poor, but...
a) Finder for those absurdly cheap ($3 or so) "finder" keyfobs, just display RSSI (signal strength) and it'd be somewhat useful; at least to give you a "warmer/colder" feedback on your distance to the tag.
b) Vibrate when your friend comes into range (or any BLE device that's advertising) and let you send simple emoticon messages (again the range won't be great, but enough for when you're in a bar or whatever), kinda like a really basic emoticon walkie-talkie. This would suck down quite a lot of battery (b/c of scanning for advertising packets) but it's a thought
c) some sort of basic morse-code style tapping messager
d) unlock your front door (use any old BLE device, e.g. a $4 CC2541 BLE-to-serial dongle hooked up to a FET or a relay)
e) assuming I can sort out reading the accelerometer, you've got basically a button/slider (the touchscreen) plus a very rough motion sensor; maybe make it a GATT HCI device like a mouse or keyboard (not sure what the OS support is like for those but it's doable)
f) You could certainly interface it to a Banana Pi (with a CSR BLE dongle) or a C.H.I.P. (which has built-in BLE)...
g) then there's all the stuff you can do with modern android/iOS phones and BLE; caller ID etc etc - much of this is covered by the current IWOWN firmware... Haven't look at it a huge amount but there's sure to be some fun stuff not yet done by the stock fw...
...there's a lot of simple projects basically, it's quite a nice toy in some limited ways.... well like I say I don't have time to implement a lot of this but if I can stick some code up on Github maybe people will take the ball and run with it...
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Click to collapse
Actually i don't think that there will be anyone who doing after you so i ask you to do some of them. Another question the screen has to coler white and blue can we change it i really like white one
Sent from my E2333 using XDA-Developers mobile app
Errrr.. no the OLED is whatever color it is. It's a cheap monochrome OLED. The only way you could change it is to take the device apart and there's no way you can ever put it back together properly again (it's solid molded plastic)
Nice work.
if it's any help.
Softdevice and bootloader i5PLus.
http://www.mediafire.com/download/uc5ugaqrjcg58w3/i5plus_softdevice.hex
http://www.mediafire.com/download/z3oe2544uayec6h/bootloader.hex
thx but the Nordic publicly available stuff is fine. I pulled the firmware etc from mine and reflashed it already. There's nothing difficult or problematic, just a case of finding time to do new fw (and I'm super busy)
There was a distant feature in oldest firmware but they removed many asked to get it back can you do it in your firmware ☺
Sent from my E2333 using XDA-Developers mobile app
by "distant feature" do you mean distance, i.e. it tracked how far you have walked/run? I can see how that would be unreliable, there's just an accelerometer in there and you can't really figure out distance from that. Accelerometers just tell you which way is down (i.e. they measure gravity) plus the acceleration/deceleration as you move it around. So, they're ok for detecting walking, better for running, but not good for figuring out how far you've actually travelled, the best it could really do is just guess from the number of footsteps it detected, which is going to be pretty inaccurate.
In general I'm not planning to do anything with the accelerometer (I doubt I'll have time), I'm thinking about using the I5 for other things like radio messaging and as a phone peripheral.
I don't expect to produce anything that duplicates the current firmware in terms of function, I want to do completely different things. Once I've written some code I'm happy to put it on github (which will have basic stuff like driving the OLED, reading the touch sensor, using the BLE radio etc) and maybe someone else will build some firmware that works as a fitness tracker.
drtune said:
by "distant feature" do you mean distance, i.e. it tracked how far you have walked/run? I can see how that would be unreliable, there's just an accelerometer in there and you can't really figure out distance from that. Accelerometers just tell you which way is down (i.e. they measure gravity) plus the acceleration/deceleration as you move it around. So, they're ok for detecting walking, better for running, but not good for figuring out how far you've actually travelled, the best it could really do is just guess from the number of footsteps it detected, which is going to be pretty inaccurate.
In general I'm not planning to do anything with the accelerometer (I doubt I'll have time), I'm thinking about using the I5 for other things like radio messaging and as a phone peripheral.
I don't expect to produce anything that duplicates the current firmware in terms of function, I want to do completely different things. Once I've written some code I'm happy to put it on github (which will have basic stuff like driving the OLED, reading the touch sensor, using the BLE radio etc) and maybe someone else will build some firmware that works as a fitness tracker.
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Click to collapse
Really it doesn't need any adding or creating for it. Just like calorie and step measure it was measuring km. You just need to get it from old firm and add it to the new one ?
Sent from my E2333 using XDA-Developers mobile app
Right, and without even having seen it I can tell you it won't work very well at all, because (...see above info about accellerometers and distance tracking).
Like I said I'm not planning to support any of this stuff.
If you personally want to "just get it from old firm and add it to new one" go for it!
drtune said:
Right, and without even having seen it I can tell you it won't work very well at all, because (...see above info about accellerometers and distance tracking).
Like I said I'm not planning to support any of this stuff.
If you personally want to "just get it from old firm and add it to new one" go for it!
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Click to collapse
Well done bro thank u for your work i hope to see it soon
Sent from my E2333 using XDA-Developers mobile app
@drtune
The reason why we're "clinging" on you is because you seem to be the only one here who can really play with these things at a developer level. With the Chinese manufacturer not caring about the abroad markets (they did not release the v2.x firmware and the "full" v3 Android app outside of China), we're kinda stuck.
I, for one, do not regret spending $16 on this thing at all. v2.0.1.8 firmware - customly flashed thanks to @roninzgz's thread - brings everything I was hoping for (vertical display and the ability to keep the time synchronized even while turned off), albeit with the trade-off of a slightly less responsive touchscreen. For crying out loud, I have Fitbit sporting coworkers that are envious at what this bracelet can do for its price. Their only hope is that mine will eventually break or fry due to poor manufacturing quality.
With all that going for us, getting you aboard would be a bit too much luck. Thank you for all the research and here's to hoping that someone will pick up from what you will share. *raises beer*
Sure, thanks.
I do this stuff for a living (not actually fitness trackers, but embedded systems hardware/software) so I have all the equipment and experience to make this a fun little project ; on the minus side I have quite a backlog of paying work to finish so taking time off that (and my family) to do this feels like I'm playing hooky from school
Anyway, like I say I have a pet project for this wristband in mind - and it doesn't really involve it doing much of what the existing firmware does - but at least I'm mildly committed to it now (ordered another six I5+'s and have one gutted and wired up for debugging here).
For anyone wanting to play with building new firmware you'll basically just need a hacksawed-open I5+ and a $4 ST-Link programmer; it would be interminably boring trying to debug by downloading new code OTA each time you make a change. Obviously once one has something reasonably ready to test it's easy enough to package it so it can be downloaded by other people with the regular Nordic OTA tool.
I can imagine it'd be possible to have an error in the firmware that bricked a device, but you'd put some reasonable safeguards in there wherever possible - really it's just about doing your best to ensure a user can get it back into an OTA-programmable state again.
drtune said:
Sure, thanks.
I do this stuff for a living (not actually fitness trackers, but embedded systems hardware/software) so I have all the equipment and experience to make this a fun little project ; on the minus side I have quite a backlog of paying work to finish so taking time off that (and my family) to do this feels like I'm playing hooky from school
Anyway, like I say I have a pet project for this wristband in mind - and it doesn't really involve it doing much of what the existing firmware does - but at least I'm mildly committed to it now (ordered another six I5+'s and have one gutted and wired up for debugging here).
For anyone wanting to play with building new firmware you'll basically just need a hacksawed-open I5+ and a $4 ST-Link programmer; it would be interminably boring trying to debug by downloading new code OTA each time you make a change. Obviously once one has something reasonably ready to test it's easy enough to package it so it can be downloaded by other people with the regular Nordic OTA tool.
I can imagine it'd be possible to have an error in the firmware that bricked a device, but you'd put some reasonable safeguards in there wherever possible - really it's just about doing your best to ensure a user can get it back into an OTA-programmable state again.
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Click to collapse
Drtune did you done anything ?
Sent from my E2333 using XDA-Developers mobile app
Not yet have a ton of work on right now and will be busy for a while on that - just very short of time right now.
Honestly don't expect anything useful to you as a consumer any time soon; when I get some code done (which will be for my project and not directly useful to an end-user) I'll post on here and github.
Hi,
Does anyone know if it's possible to customize this device and turn it into a ibeacon?
I'm looking for a wristband that is able to switch between On/Off which enable the device to broadcast iBeacon signal.
I'm looking for somebody who can help me with it, i'm willing to pay a small fee for his expertise
(I'd like to learn how to code a firmware of this device too)
Thanks
What am i trying to do?
I hope to develop a solution where i will like to enable Teens to have a SOS button on their wristband. It would then be able to code a android/iphone app that would listen for such signal, if the ibeacon signal is on their range, it will alert the mobile user that there's a surround person is facing danger.
Current wristband that i found would require user to pair it with a phone, i'm looking at broadcasting feature instead.
If any developer is able to do this for me, please PM me i'd pay a fee for your expertise.
Yes the I5 (or, even cheaper, a TW64 watch) can do simple iBeacon (or similar) advertising, it's not difficult..
However you are making two very common mistakes; scanning for BLE devices uses as lot of power so no mobile OSes will let you do it all the time (for good reason). Everyone overlooks this and it's a huge issue.
Secondly the range of BLE is very limited.
I am not interested in doing this for you (I don't work for small fees) but it's not a difficult task for someone who knows what they're doing.
Hello early adopters!
Ok, my Gemini is in my hands now, and I have a day's worth of dinking around Android on it. Eventually I want to either make it a pleasant dual-booting PDA, or leave the Android stuff to live on my phone.
I have some questions to start off:
Q1: For dual booting linux/Android, how is the storage partitioned, and is there a shared partition where I can put my files? I have text files, pictures, spreadsheets etc that I have kept under my own control all these years. These contain passwords, lists of contacts, accounting info, bookmarks, journals, etc that I have never entrusted to the 'cloud' or someone else's walled garden..
Q2: Honoring the P in PDA, is something like 'FreedomBox' for debian feasible? Perhaps this q is better asked elsewhere. Someone tell Eben Moglen about the Gemini.
Q3oes the linux side of a Gemini have access to the Android file system? Lets say I wanted to share a bookmark to Android directly, without external services like Google or email.
Q3:What is the plan for the phone services in a dual-boot setup? I assume for now the phone wants to run in Android, but it could be independent of either OS, or depend on a particular linux flavor. I had planned on a wifi-only Gemini, but apparently thought better of that and ordered a 4G one. I have not decided whether to buy a sim for it, or wait and transfer from my existing fone, or get a dumbfone now that I have a Gemini.
drakester said:
Hello early adopters!
Ok, my Gemini is in my hands now, and I have a day's worth of dinking around Android on it. Eventually I want to either make it a pleasant dual-booting PDA, or leave the Android stuff to live on my phone.
I have some questions to start off:
Q1: For dual booting linux/Android, how is the storage partitioned, and is there a shared partition where I can put my files? I have text files, pictures, spreadsheets etc that I have kept under my own control all these years. These contain passwords, lists of contacts, accounting info, bookmarks, journals, etc that I have never entrusted to the 'cloud' or someone else's walled garden..
Q2: Honoring the P in PDA, is something like 'FreedomBox' for debian feasible? Perhaps this q is better asked elsewhere. Someone tell Eben Moglen about the Gemini.
Q3oes the linux side of a Gemini have access to the Android file system? Lets say I wanted to share a bookmark to Android directly, without external services like Google or email.
Q3:What is the plan for the phone services in a dual-boot setup? I assume for now the phone wants to run in Android, but it could be independent of either OS, or depend on a particular linux flavor. I had planned on a wifi-only Gemini, but apparently thought better of that and ordered a 4G one. I have not decided whether to buy a sim for it, or wait and transfer from my existing fone, or get a dumbfone now that I have a Gemini.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Android telephony is shared with Linux. See this video
jah said:
Android telephony is shared with Linux. See this video
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Click to collapse
Thanks, that helped. Interesting thought they presented re the possibility of downloading a phone number.
Also, finally a nice piece of hardware with opensource bootloader and kernal, that can boot off usb.. Should be fun.
it´s possible with the 4g version to use the gemini as a mobile phone? calls and sms work with sim card inserted?
Yes. I use a Plantronics BT headset but you can use the speaker and mic built into the top/bottom of the device.
so this is also a mobile phone, i don´t understand why they don´t explore this as a mobile phone with dual boot linux capability, because "pda" didn´t manage to survive especially because of old hardware and didn´t have gsm capability
this is indeed great device, little expensive, but i understand the price, if this have a external small lcd with touch ability + a decent camera, i will defenitly buy this, i will manage to survive without external lcd, but camera this days is fundamental, it can be not so good as the google pixel camera, but at least ok
this can be a mobile phone + personal small computer, you will don´t need tablet or netbook anymore
this is the future by the way, love to see gadgets like this or the gpd pocket
The Gemini is very much an Android touchscreen smartphone with a QWERTY keyboard.
They probably call it a PDA because smartphone keyboards tends to be rather lacking, making people think of BlackBerry or the Nokia E-series, while the very reason the Gemini exists, is to offer a keyboard on which you can actually type a few pages per day in relative comfort. The keyboard design is very much a replica of the Psion Series 5mx keyboard, which in its day was considered to be pretty much the best keyboard on a device you could (kind of) fit in a shirt pocket. While the Gemini is a lot sleeker, the keyboard is the same size. The Psion keys had significantly more resistance. Personally the "lighter" keys of the Gemini suits me better, but that's just my opinon.
There is no external screen, but there is a set of five RGB LEDs that supposedly can be made to flash for various events, once the software for that becomes available. The built in camera is a fixed focus, user facing 5MP video telephony camera. There is a slot behind the lid cover, where an add-on 5MP rear-facing camera can be installed, when available. Since it hasn't shipped yet, I can't comment on its quality, but given the size of the slot, I wouldn't hope for much. As photography seems to be an important part of smartphones these days, that's maybe another reason they call it a PDA.