Related
So, what do you think about this battle?) Who'll win?
The only things that I don't like in N1 are: display with strange colour rendition, camera which is pink maniak (hey, like pink panther) and silent ring.
Will these thing be removed in HTC Desire?
Or maybe it's better to wait for Samsung Wave (super AMOLED display, but strange OS)
Honestly the Desire imo, fm radio, wm playback and ram/rom are just a few of the things that make it ahead of the N1 for me.
For me, the N1 is clearly the better Phone with the Noice Cancellation and way faster Software/Firmware-Support from Google.
I will never again use a Phone with Sense because of the lazy HTC-Support.
I believe the Community-Support will be much better for the N1, just look whats done so far. It was a nice Idea from Google to gave the N1 to many Android-Software-Developres for free.
And my personal Opinion: I couldnt believe my eyes when i saw a picture from the Desire at MWC. It looks much cheaper in real life than on the leaked Promo-Shots from last year. For me, the N1 looks better.
Currently have a N1, but "broke" it (still working, apart from few sensors),
with the insurance money, I will buy a Desire, since it will be available here.
No contenst unless theyll start also selling N1 straight to Finland.
HW buttons are better, going to miss notification led thou. And will cry if fastboot unlock is disabled.
i prefer Desire,because i don't like N1's track-ball....
Desire ROM on Nexus hardware
Get the best of both the worlds
It's not a case of which one is better, the desire will sell more purely because it's avaliable in store and it's avaliable on all 5 UK Networks.
People can walk into a store not knowing who HTC are and walk out with a Desire, for the Nexus you have to be specifically wanting the Nexus and then go online and pay a lot of money to get one shipped over.
Same screen as nexus?
Wonder if it will have the same screen as nexus ... if so that will suck.
http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2010/02/the-nexus-ones-dirty-display-secret/
Is it common for people to remove the sense UI from android phones and run a more stock style android interface? Is this easily done with a phone like the Desire in the near future? Im on WinMo now with my Raph/Fuze and just tired of dealing with the HTC interface, hate windows too. Been using the android port for the last few months and love it. Im just stuck trying to decide between getting a nexus or the Desire whenever it will be available in the states. Plus i dont want the Sense UI, thats my main concern with the Desire.
mbomberz1 said:
Is it common for people to remove the sense UI from android phones and run a more stock style android interface? Is this easily done with a phone like the Desire in the near future? Im on WinMo now with my Raph/Fuze and just tired of dealing with the HTC interface, hate windows too. Been using the android port for the last few months and love it. Im just stuck trying to decide between getting a nexus or the Desire whenever it will be available in the states. Plus i dont want the Sense UI, thats my main concern with the Desire.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What are your reasons for not wanting Sense UI?
I'm thinking the desire may be better quality build (minus the dust prob and hardware buttons which some may view as a plus or minus, I having lived with capacitive buttons for a year, despise them). Although I would much prefer the option to have either sense or the standard android, and as I'm not familiar with android and their homescreens, is this possible on a stock desire rom?
From what I can tell, sense is mostly just a theme along with widgets, so change the theme and then don't use the widgets right?
It's 99% Likely you'll be able to flash stock 2.1 android... A Nexus one rom, providing you root
brummiesteven said:
It's 99% Likely you'll be able to flash stock 2.1 android... A Nexus one rom, providing you root
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yea, not sure i'd want to root, already been down that path with my blackstone. hmmmm.......
OnlinePredator said:
Yea, not sure i'd want to root, already been down that path with my blackstone. hmmmm.......
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Technically you should just be able to install Launcher2.apk and switch between Sense home and Stock Android Home. Although you'd still have all the Sense apps ie contacts etc but you'd be able to replace these too.
brummiesteven said:
What are your reasons for not wanting Sense UI?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well i have not actually used Sense, just some of the Roms on my Fuze that try to mimic it. It might just be the Windows Mobile underlying that makes me hate the HTC skin, im just annoyed with it all. Using the stock android on my phone, even with the odd glitches here and there due to the early port, leaves me feeling much more free and happier with my phone.
I'm thinking nexus, purely as I don't want to root my device (hehehe root my device.....)
Although I do prefer the optical trackpad and the hardware buttons.......grrr hard decisions...
For me, it will come down to which one I can get AT&T 3G on. The phones are almost identical, and I will surely root/flash it, so the stock ROM won't matter. I do think the Nexus looks better, and will probably get better support from Google.
Motoroi is looking better than both at the moment though......except of course looks lol. But with hdmi out, 720p recording and 8mp camera with xenon flash.....v.nice! Wonder if they seriously think a 550mhz chip will suffice though?
htc Desire^^ because I dont like the trackball, and I LOVE the Sense UI
OnlinePredator said:
Motoroi is looking better than both at the moment though......except of course looks lol. But with hdmi out, 720p recording and 8mp camera with xenon flash.....v.nice! Wonder if they seriously think a 550mhz chip will suffice though?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just looked up the Motoroi for the 1st time... looks kinda pathetic next to the Desire and Nexus..
http://pdadb.net/index.php?m=pdacomparer&id1=2067&id2=2251&id3=2218
Basically, I'm thinking about trading in my Nexus for an HTC Rezound. Don't get me wrong: I freaking love this phone, and have been dying to get it for months. There's nothing wrong with it.
My issue is that I'm a flash-o-holic. Now that the Rezound has an unlocked boot loader, I'm worried that it will have more ROM options.
With the Rezound, I'll eventually be able to run ISC. it can run sense roms. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like with the Rezound I'd be able to flash everything I could with my Nexus PLUS all of the 2.3 and Sense roms, right? and that means more options.
So, I need some clarification:
Can the Nexus run anything other than 4.0 based roms? (like 2.3 based ones)
Can the Nexus potentially run a Sense rom?
With the bigger development community of the Nexus, am I better of staying where I am?
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using xda premium
I don't think the GNex will have developers that will make ROMs based on older versions of Android... I mean why would they? I feel like the dev community of the Galaxy Nexus will be bigger than the Rezound's. This is a Nexus device and Google has amazing support for their Nexus phones. I doubt the Nexus will have a Sense ROM...
There are plenty of ROMs for the Galaxy Nexus right now... it's just that not all of them are on XDA. Check out Rootzwiki for more ROMs! I recommend axi0m 2.1.
Check out my post here:
http://rootzwiki.com/topic/12696-ro...rnel-12262011/page__view__findpost__p__334056
Stick with what you have, this is the best phone for flashing roms. This will have the best support considering the support it has already.
~Sent from my Galaxy Nexus ~
I had an Incredible before, and was in love with it. GREAT dev community and tons of ROMs and development even to this day. I liked CM7 and MIUI, but I put a huge value on always being able to come back to Sense. One of my concerns with the Rezound is that the development and the development community will die after a couple months and the next bigger, brighter HTC phone comes out.
There's been enough of the Rezound vs Nexus threads and I'm sorry, so I want the focus in this thread to be only on the differences in the development, development communities, and which will have a bigger variety of ROMs...
I honestly feel like the Galaxy Nexus will have more developers because it's a Google phone. It's practically made for developers so I say just stick with this phone. It has the direct support from Google and there is no middle man between software and hardware.
tifford said:
I had an Incredible before, and was in love with it. GREAT dev community and tons of ROMs and development even to this day. I liked CM7 and MIUI, but I put a huge value on always being able to come back to Sense. One of my concerns with the Rezound is that the development and the development community will die after a couple months and the next bigger, brighter HTC phone comes out.
There's been enough of the Rezound vs Nexus threads and I'm sorry. I want the focus if thus thread to be only on the differences in the development, development communities, and which will have a bigger variety of ROMs...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Someone is trying to port touchwiz to the Nexus for God knows why.. I doubt we will ever have sense but I don't see the reasoning you have offered, OP. Saying that you always have sense to go back to to me sounds like you'll always be able to go back to stock sense if an ICS rom doesn't workout or something along those lines.. I know having sense means more options, but anything 2.3 will always be inferior to 4.0 in my eyes.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using xda premium
Not sure why you'd strive to flash 2.3 Sense ROMs on any phone if something newer was available.
You do realize that once HTC starts releasing Sense ICS ROMs, the devs will stop working on the 2.3 ROMs, right?
Just remember, development for a Nexus will always be solid.
ChickenGod said:
There are plenty of ROMs for the Galaxy Nexus right now... it's just that not all of them are on XDA. Check out Rootzwiki for more ROMs! I recommend axi0m 2.1.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm on axi0m 2.1 right now... its awesome with tons of options.
there are tons of roms out there for the nexus already, but they're all basically the same. Yes, AOSP vs CM9 has its differences, but they're different hues of the same color. I want colors, dammit! and I'm sure it'll get there...
I guess I'm just worried that it'll always be ICS with some slight twists, instead of 2.3 AOSP vs cm7 vs miui vs sense vs ice, etc. I like the idea of having all of those options
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using xda premium
i guess I just got used to switching up roms every couple weeks or so with my incredible. I'd run a sense rom for a couple weeks, get bored with it, switch to cm7 for a couple weeks, switch to miui, etc.
I don't like the idea of finding one rom, and sticking with it forever, even if all others are "inferior." I like to mix it up.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using xda premium
I believe Vicious is working on MIUI for the GNex.
even though the Rezound realistically is the only competition for the Nexus, there:s just the whole "S-OFF" issue. last i heard, they're still trying to acheive that thus no roms yet.
tifford said:
i guess I just got used to switching up roms every couple weeks or so with my incredible. I'd run a sense rom for a couple weeks, get bored with it, switch to cm7 for a couple weeks, switch to miui, etc.
I don't like the idea of finding one rom, and sticking with it forever, even if all others are "inferior." I like to mix it up.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Remember that the Galaxy Nexus (specifically the VZW version) hasn't exactly been out long enough for there to be 100's of ROMs. Not to mention that it's the first and only ICS device right now.
ALL Recent HTC Phones now are unlockable courtsey of HTC themselves
Not exactly sure what S-Off is but all recent HTC phones are capabable of an unlockable bootloader thanks to HTC themselves. This includes the Rezound. HTCdev.com
http://www.htcdev.com
http://phandroid.com/2011/12/28/htc-makes-all-handsets-released-since-september-2011-unlockable/
http://androidandme.com/2011/12/news/htc-super-tool-unlocks-bootloader-roots-most-devices/
SamsungVibrant said:
Not exactly sure what S-Off is but all recent HTC phones are capabable of an unlockable bootloader thanks to HTC themselves. This includes the Rezound. HTCdev.com
http://www.htcdev.com
http://phandroid.com/2011/12/28/htc-makes-all-handsets-released-since-september-2011-unlockable/
http://androidandme.com/2011/12/news/htc-super-tool-unlocks-bootloader-roots-most-devices/
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They still need s off to be able to fully do everything, all that's doing right now is unlocking part of boot loader but from what I hear they still can't flash custom recoverys. Anyhow I love my G Nex and I came from a Rezound I don't even think about going back at all.
Sent from my Unlocked & Rooted G Nex using XDA App
If Sense means that much to you, maybe you should go with the Rezound (plus it has an amazing screen). Just remember that you won't have access to an optimal ICS build for a while. Sense is cool and all, but ICS is a huge step forward for the android OS.
Plus, the GN will be first in line for all software updates, which will keep its dev community on the bleeding edge. Also, as others have pointed out, dev support will be much stronger (and probably longer lasting) for the Galaxy Nexus.
The Nexus is a dev device... doesn't get more from friendly than this.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using xda premium
Going from ICS 4.x back to anything 2.3.x is like wiping before you poop....pointless!
Nexus has several advantages.
1) bigger screen, hopefully devs will be able to utilize the full screen for all apps
2) virtual keys
therefore even with both having ICS, it won't be exactly the same. (rest of the hardware is debatable as both have pluses and minus - like screen tech/sd card/etc)
Besides, nexus is likely far more popular so the number of devs attracted to this device will likely be much higher.
SamsungVibrant said:
Not exactly sure what S-Off is but all recent HTC phones are capabable of an unlockable bootloader thanks to HTC themselves. This includes the Rezound. HTCdev.com
http://www.htcdev.com
http://phandroid.com/2011/12/28/htc-makes-all-handsets-released-since-september-2011-unlockable/
http://androidandme.com/2011/12/news/htc-super-tool-unlocks-bootloader-roots-most-devices/
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
sure the manufacturer offers the 'unlock' ability, but the carrier has the final say. both the rezound & the droid razr have the ability to be unlocked, but verizon wont let it happen. so with the rezound, since the devs cant get htc to permit the unlock(again, thank you verizon) they've just been attempting a work around now since the phone's been out and to this day are still struggling with it. so no roms/kernals/etc yet.. just a b.s. "temp root".
voxigenboy said:
sure the manufacturer offers the 'unlock' ability, but the carrier has the final say. both the rezound & the droid razr have the ability to be unlocked, but verizon wont let it happen. so with the rezound, since the devs cant get htc to permit the unlock(again, thank you verizon) they've just been attempting a work around now since the phone's been out and to this day are still struggling with it. so no roms/kernals/etc yet.. just a b.s. "temp root".
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Dude.. the Rezound's bootloader has been unlocked, even on Verizon. They're S-ON but with an unlocked bootloader.
Hey, I am coming from a Nexus One so I'm very comfortable with stock Android.
I have preordered a One X and would like to know what benefits and drawbacks there are with Sense.
Cheers.
PsiAdster said:
Hey, I am coming from a Nexus One so I'm very comfortable with stock Android.
I have preordered a One X and would like to know what benefits and drawbacks there are with Sense.
Cheers.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well first of all you coming from a nexus one, you will absolutely love the one X and HTC sense ( even tho I haven't play with the phone yet I'm pretty sure). It is a huge upgrade. As far as sense vs stock well sense offers a lot more customization, excellent widgets, it's eye candy. Stock is always great as it is easy to update, you get the pure google experience and there is less chances of lag and stuff since android OSs are optimized to work really well with nexus phones. Now for drawbacks the only thing I can think of for sense and any other overlays is that it will result in later OS updates. But HTC does a very good job at updating their devices in a timely fashion plus they will focus a lot on the one x so you're good to go.
barondebxl said:
Well first of all you coming from a nexus one, you will absolutely love the one X and HTC sense ( even tho I haven't play with the phone yet I'm pretty sure). It is a huge upgrade. As far as sense vs stock well sense offers a lot more customization, excellent widgets, it's eye candy. Stock is always great as it is easy to update, you get the pure google experience and there is less chances of lag and stuff since android OSs are optimized to work really well with nexus phones. Now for drawbacks the only thing I can think of for sense and any other overlays is that it will result in later OS updates. But HTC does a very good job at updating their devices in a timely fashion plus they will focus a lot on the one x so you're good to go.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Awesome. Thanks for your input.
Anyone else got something to add?
Your question is kind of confusing. "stock" for any HTC device is going to be sense. I think you mean AOSP vs Sense. AOSP has less polish and eye candy, but usually offers more speed and better battery life.
Sent from my HTC PH39100 using xda premium
barondebxl said:
Well first of all you coming from a nexus one, you will absolutely love the one X and HTC sense ( even tho I haven't play with the phone yet I'm pretty sure). It is a huge upgrade. As far as sense vs stock well sense offers a lot more customization, excellent widgets, it's eye candy. Stock is always great as it is easy to update, you get the pure google experience and there is less chances of lag and stuff since android OSs are optimized to work really well with nexus phones. Now for drawbacks the only thing I can think of for sense and any other overlays is that it will result in later OS updates. But HTC does a very good job at updating their devices in a timely fashion plus they will focus a lot on the one x so you're good to go.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
slapshot30 said:
Your question is kind of confusing. "stock" for any HTC device is going to be sense. I think you mean AOSP vs Sense. AOSP has less polish and eye candy, but usually offers more speed and better battery life.
Sent from my HTC PH39100 using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ahh. More specifically I was using CM7. 1.
Back in the days, Sense was really bad and it slowed down your device.
But the One X has the right hardware and Sense 4 is so clean and it's still lokking great.
You will enjoy it!
Until we all have it in our hands, no one really knows.
Sense 4 looks like such an improvement on all levels so we'll see.
I've already tested it for 3 hours and it's amazing.
I agree, the last versions of Sense were buggy and slow but now HTC found the perfect mix of speed and design.
I have to say that Sense is a really good looking skin, the best in my opinion compared to others. My guess is that you'll like it because I don't know many people who really hate it nowadays and I'm sure it's going to be better than it used to be. And AOSP roms are sure to be made at some point. As long as HTC unlocks the device, which I'm assuming they will soon after release.
Awesome. Cheers for the input, looking forward to getting my hands on this phone.
Importantly, sense has more widgets that integrate with android which provide better convenience for users. However, we do see many other alternatives inspired by sense which can be achievable even you're on AOSP. Personally, I feel that there is no other theme that make me feel that what I'm using is really a smartphone other than Sense. Ever since the touch diamond time.
Sent from my Desire HD using XDA
I'm not such a big fan of sense. To me, it's a little uninspired. The white menus with their "shutter" effect is a little jarring if you ask me, and the widgets are becoming a little long in the tooth. If I were to choose any skin it would definitely be Sony's. Theirs is somewhat minimal with very cool and subtle animations and overall a bit "darker", in keeping with Google's AOSP, almost more slick and business-like. That said, I find Sense much better than say what Samsung and LG have on their phones.
In any case, I've placed an order for the X, but I'll be keeping my eye out for both CM9 and MIUI ROMs.
I am using a desire now and can appreciate Sense.
Although I don't use the friendstream and other widgets, the eye candy is nice And I love the other features such as cutting off the ring tone by flipping the phone etc.
The new ones with active lockscreen should be ace.
I always liked Sense then switched roms and started using GO Launcher EX it is brilliant.Though I really am looking forward to seeing what Sense 4 is like on the One X ...roll on next week
Being a noob to android, can anyone explain how much of the features of a phone are likely to be tied to the software rather than hardware?
Obviously very hard to tell with this phone not being out yet, but things like the video recording and taking a picture at the same time, or apt-x compatibility, or even compatibility with the htc media link
Do you need to keep sense in order for those things to work?
AOSP development yet?
enochsalum said:
AOSP development yet?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
im playing with a 4.4 aosp build that aospa made for nexus 7(fhd) and it is amazing. the speed difference and smoothness of the OS is a huge step foreword,even in an early quick build. Lol now ill be perfectly happy as soon as they finish making a flashable gapps, and my note gets an aosp build, 4.3 or 4.4, i want to remove touchwiz!!! and yes i know, i could try to build it, and i have been trying,but im obviously missing something, cause i cant get anything to boot that isnt touchwiz
jackxlj said:
im playing with a 4.4 aosp build that aospa made for nexus 7(fhd) and it is amazing. the speed difference and smoothness of the OS is a huge step foreword,even in an early quick build. Lol now ill be perfectly happy as soon as they finish making a flashable gapps, and my note gets an aosp build, 4.3 or 4.4, i want to remove touchwiz!!! and yes i know, i could try to build it, and i have been trying,but im obviously missing something, cause i cant get anything to boot that isnt touchwiz
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The only probablem with and AOSP build on this phone is you are going to lose 80% of the functionality of this phone. The entire design of the phone, spen, sensors, automated services, etc are built around TW. Once TW is gone, all that is gone, and what is left is a fast processor with stock android and 2 or 3 spen apps that may or may not work on the Note 3
Essentially you want to take a Chevy Cobalt, and stick a Aftermarket engine in and and a Custom paint job. when it's said and done, it's still going to be a regular old Cobalt.
dragonstalker said:
The only probablem with and AOSP build on this phone is you are going to lose 80% of the functionality of this phone. The entire design of the phone, spen, sensors, automated services, etc are built around TW. Once TW is gone, all that is gone, and what is left is a fast processor with stock android and 2 or 3 spen apps that may or may not work on the Note 3
Essentially you want to take a Chevy Cobalt, and stick a Aftermarket engine in and and a Custom paint job. when it's said and done, it's still going to be a regular old Cobalt.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i dont use the spen, nor have i ever. i have bought every single note, based on screen size alone,and the development community. i prefer aosp, i dont comment on others desire to use tw and the many many features it offers. I just dont use them, so would prefer to have a rom that didnt have them. I i used multiwindow, or spen,etc, i wouldnt ask for aosp. If google released a note 3 sized device, i would buy it, but since they dont, i buy the note series and wait for our genius devs to make me cm roms to play with
dragonstalker said:
The only probablem with and AOSP build on this phone is you are going to lose 80% of the functionality of this phone. The entire design of the phone, spen, sensors, automated services, etc are built around TW. Once TW is gone, all that is gone, and what is left is a fast processor with stock android and 2 or 3 spen apps that may or may not work on the Note 3
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
A lot of us don't even use 98% of TouchWiz's gimmicky features - we just love the big display. I've had to install at least a half dozen apps AND Xposed just to get back a lot of what is built into CyanogenMod, for example.
One nice feature of TouchWhiz, though, is swiping down in fullscreen apps shows the hidden notification bar, but, 4.4 will have that feature stock now. Magazine, AirStuff, SmartFooScrollWhatever, SPen Blah... however, won't miss it. I'll probably miss the camera, since that's one of things that's often hit or miss when CM is first released on a new device. Oh, almost forgot: I'll definitely miss the nice InfraRed universal remote app that comes with the device, because the next best one costs $$$.
jackxlj said:
i dont use the spen, nor have i ever. i have bought every single note, based on screen size alone,and the development community. i prefer aosp, i dont comment on others desire to use tw and the many many features it offers. I just dont use them, so would prefer to have a rom that didnt have them. I i used multiwindow, or spen,etc, i wouldnt ask for aosp. If google released a note 3 sized device, i would buy it, but since they dont, i buy the note series and wait for our genius devs to make me cm roms to play with
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
AH gotcha, In that case it makes sense. Always curious to find out why people purchase certain phones and then want to put Aosp on them.
And there are people working on AOSP, but until somebody gets a base, that is stable, we won't see it. From the guys i talk to, until the dev edition is released, Sammy is keeping a tight lid on it because they don't want another leak, like the S4 had
For the people that want it. I know it's not AOSP, but when I get this INT. RoM picked apart like i want it for the masses. I will work on a seperate Int. ROM that will have as much TW removed without breaking the phone. Or, just replace TW with a custom Launcher that will let me freeze all the garbage you guys don't care about.
aosp always takes time, bs tw roms, nothing to do with samsung, just a matter of devs having to create drivers, etc. im pretty sure one of the cm devs got cm running on the tmobile note 3, but it was to buggy to release.took a couple months for note 1,note 2, etc, we will have it soon. I may be wrong, but the nexus 5 may make the note 3 easier to get to aosp, because it uses the same chip set, so i think it may make things a bit smoother, not alot, but hey every bit helps!
only reasons i bought note 3 knowing nexus 5 was coming is
-5.7 screen
-sd card
-snapdragon 800
Wish someone could make an AOSP rom that has all of the s-pen features present. Would be the greatest of all time.
zmore said:
A lot of us don't even use 98% of TouchWiz's gimmicky features - we just love the big display. I've had to install at least a half dozen apps AND Xposed just to get back a lot of what is built into CyanogenMod, for example.
One nice feature of TouchWhiz, though, is swiping down in fullscreen apps shows the hidden notification bar, but, 4.4 will have that feature stock now. Magazine, AirStuff, SmartFooScrollWhatever, SPen Blah... however, won't miss it. I'll probably miss the camera, since that's one of things that's often hit or miss when CM is first released on a new device. Oh, almost forgot: I'll definitely miss the nice InfraRed universal remote app that comes with the device, because the next best one costs $$$.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Same here. The Touch Wiz stuff is there to show off in commercials for the average brain dead consumer to think is cool. First thing I do is disable all the motion/eye crap. The pen is the only thing I miss, but I really only used that for Draw Something.
To all the guys that love aosp and not TW you should switch to the nexus 5. How could you not like any of the features? Camera and such? Having aosp is like ANY other phone as old as it gets. Stock Android is available for many devices. Note 3 has its own special set of features, removing it it's like a car with no wheels. Not one of kind anymore just like the phone your buddy has. 700 phone to look like a 200 device is just dumb. But that's yalls minds I guess.
Sent from my SM-N900T using XDA Premium 4 mobile app
muqali said:
Same here. The Touch Wiz stuff is there to show off in commercials for the average brain dead consumer to think is cool. First thing I do is disable all the motion/eye crap. The pen is the only thing I miss, but I really only used that for Draw Something.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Unfortunately i'm among those brain dead consumers that you speak of. I actually don't like Sammy software, and have not since the Behold For those that even remember that phone). I do on the other hand, use alot of the features that come with it as i'm an IT and it makes life easier for me to carry around the note 3 instead of a tab, and pen/paper, and lap top to be able to do what i can do with this.
Waiting CyanogenMod！
It's hard to lose wifi calling.
Sent from my SM-N900T using xda app-developers app
dragonstalker said:
The only probablem with and AOSP build on this phone is you are going to lose 80% of the functionality of this phone. The entire design of the phone, spen, sensors, automated services, etc are built around TW. Once TW is gone, all that is gone, and what is left is a fast processor with stock android and 2 or 3 spen apps that may or may not work on the Note 3
Essentially you want to take a Chevy Cobalt, and stick a Aftermarket engine in and and a Custom paint job. when it's said and done, it's still going to be a regular old Cobalt.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think ultimately we(donate) and they(devs) make solutions. My proposition is to rebuild multi window via s command style, draw box you have a window, minimize you get a floating bubble(notifications on bubbles would make sense). I don't know how hard that would be to build for AOSP but Clean android and multi App Window would make for a very light weight and productive Rom. I believe something similar is soon to be released but not with this level of simplicity hardware/user wise. Plus I've seen multi window on aosp roms coming to play out so I can't imagine why this isn't feasible.
**update**
Omnirom is the name of the rom that will feature multi window on aosp.
chuko303 said:
To all the guys that love aosp and not TW you should switch to the nexus 5. How could you not like any of the features? Camera and such? Having aosp is like ANY other phone as old as it gets. Stock Android is available for many devices. Note 3 has its own special set of features, removing it it's like a car with no wheels. Not one of kind anymore just like the phone your buddy has. 700 phone to look like a 200 device is just dumb. But that's yalls minds I guess.
Sent from my SM-N900T using XDA Premium 4 mobile app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nexus 5 is a 5in screen.
Note 3 is a 5.7in screen.
And stock android can be modified to be far more unique than TW by the way.
And there are people who don't find any of these features useful, which was stated before. It will be a shame to loose the camera app though.
Nexus ONE
Nexus 5 has 0 microSD slots
Note 3 has 1 microSD slot
Plainly put I brought this phone for the hardware not the software. I would have brought this phone with out the spen and Samsung features lol
Sent from my SM-N900T using xda premium
joverclock said:
only reasons i bought note 3 knowing nexus 5 was coming is
-5.7 screen
-sd card
-snapdragon 800
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah I had been waiting for the nexus 5, sold my n4 and decided to go with the note3, totally happy I did..
i dont want a 5" phone without sd, i want a 5'7 inch screen, with sd, and the note 3 looks way better then the n5. I dont like touchwiz,i hate it, but i love samsung hardware. The beauty of android is choice, why complain that other people have a opinion that isnt the same as yours?
I'm not a pro user and i compared m9 fluidity to nexus 5 and newer google phones, they are obviously smoother than any other high end android phones. Is there a particular reason or setting or mod to make m9 so?
Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk
Sense sucks - thats the reason. I have no idea why but HTC gets rid of many preety little animations that are in stock and to make things even worse their own animations stright sucks. They start a good haf or more second after touch and then they are trying to "catch up".
There is only one solution for that and its obviously flashing AOSP like rom, personally I like CM12.1 the best for now ( You can find stable build in camera bounty thread). Then to make things even better i recomend nova launcher prime with animations set up to 'circle' it gives smooth, and INSTANT animations that make experience so much better.
I also have a feeling that forcing GPU rendering under developer settings makes everything a bit smoother.
Sense or aosp roms dont seem to be very fluid on the m9 for some reason. No overheating on my exchanged unit but it is disapointing. I have until tomorrow to turn my m9 back in to tmobile, 14 day refund. Im considering it but theres no other device they offer id want.
Then why did you guys go for the M9? Certainly, nexus devices are more fluid for the obvious reasons... But for me among other oems that offer android,t sense is by far the best... I did go for the M9 for the very reason that no nexus device is comparable to the features of the m9... Nexus devices always lack a thing or two... But yes, if one wants the best experience of Android, they should go for a nexus...
Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk
toster jp said:
Sense sucks - thats the reason. I have no idea why but HTC gets rid of many preety little animations that are in stock and to make things even worse their own animations stright sucks. They start a good haf or more second after touch and then they are trying to "catch up".
There is only one solution for that and its obviously flashing AOSP like rom, personally I like CM12.1 the best for now ( You can find stable build in camera bounty thread). Then to make things even better i recomend nova launcher prime with animations set up to 'circle' it gives smooth, and INSTANT animations that make experience so much better.
I also have a feeling that forcing GPU rendering under developer settings makes everything a bit smoother.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sounds like an opinion more than a fact.
If this is how you feel then why did you buy a HTC device? I have to say, in terms of pace and reliability Sense is definitely one of the quickest UI's you are likely to see, Touch Wiz, LG's own, Sony's own, MIUI, Huawei's thing, none are as quick as sense.
However......
If you like the M9 but want animations, go to my thread and install xposed and XUI and Screen Off Animation then you can have all the animations you want.
The battery implications, believe it or not are minimal and certainly in line with other devices, including the Nexus (even with xposed installed) it'll be the apps you have which have a stronger bearing on your battery usage than xposed.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/one...-m9-xposed-t3120711/post63539475#post63539475
Enjoy
---------- Post added at 08:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:15 AM ----------
fix-this! said:
Sense or aosp roms dont seem to be very fluid on the m9 for some reason. No overheating on my exchanged unit but it is disapointing. I have until tomorrow to turn my m9 back in to tmobile, 14 day refund. Im considering it but theres no other device they offer id want.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Either we have very different phones or i don't know what, sense is rapid, never slows down unless it's being woken from a long time asleep (low cpu levels when off for a long time)
It's fluid constantly, i have no lag and no overheating at all.
@dladz
It's a fact unfortunately. Many people cannot distinguish smoothness from snappyness IMHO.
Sense roms are snapy, but lets admit.. they are not fluid while pure android phones ( thinking about nexuses) are both, snapy and fluid.
Where sense gets it wrong? Well in many places. For example.. Turning lighter on ( from quick settings) in stock android have very nice animation, same for airplane mode, localization, screen rotation and so on, while on sense roms You have none of these.
Want to check your data usage? In stock android You can do it from quicksettings and You will be pleased with nice, instant animation, on sense You can find it deep under phone settings.
Opening recents from home screen? There is always small lag/a few dropped frames on sense, do the same thing from an app and vuala, no delay. On stock its all smooth and flawless.
Then worst part that luckily is dependable on launcher.. App opening animation. On stock android You will see close to instant animation after taping on app icon, ( for the most part...) then, on sense You will tap, wait a bit and then see very fast animation = snappines is there but smoothness, well not so much.
I bought M9 with hope that it will recive a good third party support like m8 did and I thought that sense is not that bad ( but as You already said, everything is bad after using stock nexus software)
I had nexus 5 before M9 and I wanted to keep it for one more year because all flagships from this year were dissapointing for me but it died. ( broken screen. tough I finally repaired it myself.) M9 seemed like best option as samsung is samsung and I cant stand their software and z3+ was over $350 more expensive than One.
Personaly I was really dissapointed with htc software and phone in general but after switching to stable CM12.1 I'm happy once again.
And BTW xperia UI and also motorolla UI is way closer to stock android than one M9, in my opinion those two are also better looking ones.
I'm waiting for cm13 and marshmallow to see if our phone will get some optimization from nexus 6p because it has same hardware
if will be disappointing (even if this phone is pretty satisfying as it is) I will consider to change phone
I
toster jp said:
@dladz
It's a fact unfortunately. Many people cannot distinguish smoothness from snappyness IMHO.
Sense roms are snapy, but lets admit.. they are not fluid while pure android phones ( thinking about nexuses) are both, snapy and fluid.
Where sense gets it wrong? Well in many places. For example.. Turning lighter on ( from quick settings) in stock android have very nice animation, same for airplane mode, localization, screen rotation and so on, while on sense roms You have none of these.
Want to check your data usage? In stock android You can do it from quicksettings and You will be pleased with nice, instant animation, on sense You can find it deep under phone settings.
Opening recents from home screen? There is always small lag/a few dropped frames on sense, do the same thing from an app and vuala, no delay. On stock its all smooth and flawless.
Then worst part that luckily is dependable on launcher.. App opening animation. On stock android You will see close to instant animation after taping on app icon, ( for the most part...) then, on sense You will tap, wait a bit and then see very fast animation = snappines is there but smoothness, well not so much.
I bought M9 with hope that it will recive a good third party support like m8 did and I thought that sense is not that bad ( but as You already said, everything is bad after using stock nexus software)
I had nexus 5 before M9 and I wanted to keep it for one more year because all flagships from this year were dissapointing for me but it died. ( broken screen. tough I finally repaired it myself.) M9 seemed like best option as samsung is samsung and I cant stand their software and z3+ was over $350 more expensive than One.
Personaly I was really dissapointed with htc software and phone in general but after switching to stable CM12.1 I'm happy once again.
And BTW xperia UI and also motorolla UI is way closer to stock android than one M9, in my opinion those two are also better looking ones.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
First and foremost you're giving me your opinion, nothing more.
Stock android gives you the minimum. If that's what you want then fair enough, go for it.
Grab yourself a nexus.
This is a htc device. And FYI I am well aware of the difference between snappy and fluid, you implicated that I don't.
My phone is as fluid as any.
Please see this video showcasing some animations and UI (old ish video)
https://youtu.be/FrIJdvm_fiQ
If this isn't what you want then you bought the wrong phone. Complaining about it won't change a damn thing.
Your opinion does not spell fact, it is simply your opinion. That is a fact.
So i would say, either enjoy the phone or buy another.. Just stop complaining about it, there's nothing that can be gained from it.
Also, sonys Ui is a disgrace, it's large and clunky. Over baring and just nowhere near as functional as it should be, plus it's several times larger than stock android,? Not sure where you got your info from mate.
Motorola is stock android mate, it's owned by google, or was at least. So no surprise there.
dladz said:
Sounds like an opinion more than a fact.
If this is how you feel then why did you buy a HTC device? I have to say, in terms of pace and reliability Sense is definitely one of the quickest UI's you are likely to see, Touch Wiz, LG's own, Sony's own, MIUI, Huawei's thing, none are as quick as sense.
However......
If you like the M9 but want animations, go to my thread and install xposed and XUI and Screen Off Animation then you can have all the animations you want.
The battery implications, believe it or not are minimal and certainly in line with other devices, including the Nexus (even with xposed installed) it'll be the apps you have which have a stronger bearing on your battery usage than xposed.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/one...-m9-xposed-t3120711/post63539475#post63539475
Enjoy
---------- Post added at 08:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:15 AM ----------
Either we have very different phones or i don't know what, sense is rapid, never slows down unless it's being woken from a long time asleep (low cpu levels when off for a long time)
It's fluid constantly, i have no lag and no overheating at all.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
dladz said:
I
First and foremost you're giving me your opinion, nothing more.
Stock android gives you the minimum. If that's what you want then fair enough, go for it.
Grab yourself a nexus.
This is a htc device. And FYI I am well aware of the difference between snappy and fluid, you implicated that I don't.
My phone is as fluid as any.
Please see this video showcasing some animations and UI (old ish video)
https://youtu.be/FrIJdvm_fiQ
If this isn't what you want then you bought the wrong phone. Complaining about it won't change a damn thing.
Your opinion does not spell fact, it is simply your opinion. That is a fact.
So i would say, either enjoy the phone or buy another.. Just stop complaining about it, there's nothing that can be gained from it.
Also, sonys Ui is a disgrace, it's large and clunky. Over baring and just nowhere near as functional as it should be, plus it's several times larger than stock android,? Not sure where you got your info from mate.
Motorola is stock android mate, it's owned by google, or was at least. So no surprise there.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It sounds like your posts are also full of opinions.
People buy phones for varying reasons. Just because someone is pointing out shortfalls of a device doesn't mean he/she doesn't want to own said device. Telling someone to "go grab yourself a nexus" just weakens your argument.
Similar to the users who posted in this thread, I also notice some lag in some cases, e.g., when opening "recents" on the M9, which was never the case on, say, the Nexus 6. However, I was fully expecting to experience lag on the M9 coming from the Nexus 6. I choose the M9, for other reasons, i.e., I was looking for a 5" device with front facing stereo speakers. That limits my choices greatly, so I have had to compromise. Does the fact that I currently own an M9 mean that I can't point out it's weaknesses? Absolutely not. (And pointing out weaknesses is not necessarily complaining.) When I owned the Nexus 6, I certainly pointed out it's weaknesses (and strengths), as I did with previous devices I've owned.
I also noticed that you were not using stock Sense in the video you posted. Would you say stock Sense is as fluid as the ROM you were using? I would say a more fair comparison would be stock Nexus 6 vs stock M9, no?
And yes, you are correct, complaining about a phone isn't going to make it better. But then again, being a fan boy won't get rid of shortcomings either.
Either way, the M9 is certainly a nice device. Is it perfect? No. But no device is. Everyone compromises based on what is important to him/her.
And by the way, Motorola devices do NOT use stock Android. That is a fact.
Coming from a Nexus 4, I'm not seeing much difference in fluidness and smoothness. The M9 is right there with the Nexus 4. When the Nexus 5 came out, I did look into it, but the majority of reviews I read didn't see it as a big jump from the 4. Maybe the Nexus 6 is a bigger improvement. I didn't go for the 6 because I don't want a screen that dang big. My wife likes the Samsung Notes, so I am familiar with Touchwiz and will state that Sense is leaps and bounds smoother and more fluid than it. Currently, I do have two Moto Gs in the household and as far as I can tell they are stock Android.
@dladz
First and foremost, read carefully. I'm not just giving You my opinion, I've pointed out where sense isn't smooth while stock is - its not an opinion its fact, I could even make video just to proof that. ( although there are already tons of videos about stock android transitions/animations that sense lacks btw.)
Stock android gives you the minimum. If that's what you want then fair enough, go for it.
Grab yourself a nexus.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thats what I want, I like minimal aproach to software. And also, I've explained already why I'm not using nexus currently and also why I use M9 now...
This is a htc device. And FYI I am well aware of the difference between snappy and fluid, you implicated that I don't.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I implicated that many don't, not necessarily You.
About Your video and Your animations pack.. Well I know those animations for years now I was using some of them a few years ago on xperia p and I thought they were cool but i don't think they are anymore as they mostly don't make sense, and also they dont fit with material design philosophy and guidelines. Then again You are not using stock sense and although Your phone is smooth for the most part - You were showcasing parts of software that are usualy smoooth on most android phones.. I already pointed out where sense isn't smooth and I bet that Your sense based rom isn't smooth there as well - You just don't care.
So i would say, either enjoy the phone or buy another..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
- did You read my comment to the end..? I've said there that " Personaly I was really dissapointed with htc software and phone in general but after switching to stable CM12.1 I'm happy once again. " Also I don't like stock software, not hardware and while I cannot change hardare I could change software - and I did...
Also, sonys Ui is a disgrace, it's large and clunky. Over baring and just nowhere near as functional as it should be, plus it's several times larger than stock android,? Not sure where you got your info from mate.
Motorola is stock android mate, it's owned by google, or was at least. So no surprise there
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
First of all, sense roms are even bigger than xperia ones, and also sony's UI is closer to stock android.. ( quick settings, recents, or even softbuttons all these elements ale closer to stock than sense implementations.)
And from what I know, motorola isn't google anymore - its owned by lenovo + motorola's UI is close to stock, but they have their own additions - so its no longer stock..
Complaining about it won't change a damn thing.
Just stop complaining about it, there's nothing that can be gained from it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
- Seriously? I will keep on complaining becasuse it can change a damn thing - its just a software that could be modified. (Also pointing out weaknesses is not necessarily complaining.) - not even my words - @efrant
By pointing out those shortfalls I'm not saying HTC is bad, I own their phone after all, I'm just trying to show where sense could improve in terms of smothness.
I don't get why so many android guys (ios guys as well) cannot admit that android/their phone isn't perfect. There is a lot to be improved and personally I dont know why I should stay quiet and do nothing about it.
Maybe I'll make a video with nexus 5 running stock marshmallow, and one M9 running both, CM and sense, just to prove that its not M9 hardware that makes phone not so smooth but its own sofrware. ( looking at You sense)
BTW. Have You tried CM 12.1 build from camera bounty thread or have You ever used nexus as Your daily driver? (dladz?)
As for the OP @iprong
You can try flashing this bouild from rashed -http://downloads.hostingsharedbox.com/rashed/m9/himaul/ ( fully functional CM12.1, the latest one is the one You should go with.)
And If You like sense apps then just look for them on xda, I'm sure someone ported them for AOSP based roms.
efrant said:
It sounds like your posts are also full of opinions.
People buy phones for varying reasons. Just because someone is pointing out shortfalls of a device doesn't mean he/she doesn't want to own said device. Telling someone to "go grab yourself a nexus" just weakens your argument.
Similar to the users who posted in this thread, I also notice some lag in some cases, e.g., when opening "recents" on the M9, which was never the case on, say, the Nexus 6. However, I was fully expecting to experience lag on the M9 coming from the Nexus 6. I choose the M9, for other reasons, i.e., I was looking for a 5" device with front facing stereo speakers. That limits my choices greatly, so I have had to compromise. Does the fact that I currently own an M9 mean that I can't point out it's weaknesses? Absolutely not. (And pointing out weaknesses is not necessarily complaining.) When I owned the Nexus 6, I certainly pointed out it's weaknesses (and strengths), as I did with previous devices I've owned.
I also noticed that you were not using stock Sense in the video you posted. Would you say stock Sense is as fluid as the ROM you were using? I would say a more fair comparison would be stock Nexus 6 vs stock M9, no?
And yes, you are correct, complaining about a phone isn't going to make it better. But then again, being a fan boy won't get rid of shortcomings either.
Either way, the M9 is certainly a nice device. Is it perfect? No. But no device is. Everyone compromises based on what is important to him/her.
And by the way, Motorola devices do NOT use stock Android. That is a fact.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
http://www.androidcentral.com/moto-x-pure-edition-review
??? It's not stock android??? Oh ? It certainly looks like it to me, maybe a few additional addons yea but it's got the launcher, the settings, the lack of any additional UI ? Fact !
As for my opinion, it's based on what i see and feel so yea you're right it's my opinion, however what i'm saying is that the HTC is not a slow phone, it doesn't lag and if you watched my video you'd know that, if your phones lagging then you're obviously doing something wrong, you probably have apps dragging your phone down or it's not been optimised as mine has, as my phone simply does not lag.
And no it wasn't stock sense, it was Leedroid, it had xposed and 2 extra mods making animations, it was also not the most up to date version of android either, it was just a video i made to showcase some mods.
I haven't mentioned stock sense, not once, I am literally speaking from my experience as an experienced modder and user of custom roms, of course it's not stock, why would anyone buy a HTC device and then not mod it? It's ludicrous as their OS without modification is pants and has been for a long time, this is at the end of the day XDA developers, we mod phones, this is why we're here, if you're running total stock then i have no idea why you've come to XDA in the first place as you would be like a fish amongst land mammals.
Stock nexus 6 vs a stock htc device? I have no idea, truthfully, the nexus as it's lighter will probably be a quicker device so in that case i concur it would be, but as i've said, i'm not talking about a stock experience i'm talking about HTC vs ????? whatever, the way i have my phone set up is by far and away a quicker and more fluid phone than anything i've ever used, even my old S3 with Foxhounds rom would be quicker and more fluid than a nexus or even the next nexus, perhaps not but it gives you an indication of whats possible, I'm also more than happy to help people if they need it, if they want to make their phone as mine is or mimmick one of my set ups.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4BJhIqPmJ0
My old s3, this phone flew, without modification this phone was awful, but, thanks to the dev's on XDA namely @raffaele88 it was made possible.
In regards to me being a fan boy, may i remind you that this is the HTC section of XDA developers, this is a place for people who love the HTC device, what did you expect to find within this location?
Being beyond presumptuous and blind to obviousness what is your point here? I fail to see it, if you've got a HTC device wouldn't that make you a fan boy too? If we aren't all fanboys here then something has gone very wrong for those people and they've bought the wrong device.
The primary reason why i have a soft spot for HTC devices and yes perhaps a little bit of a biased opinion is because HTC gave me my first android device and probably spawned the beginning of the android life with superb phones such as the Hero, Desire, Nexus One and the G1, lest we forget, without them we really wouldn't have the choices we have today, I guess some people don't feel as nostalgic as I do or as grateful when buying a device.
Lastly, the recents tab, again, i do not have any sort of lag whilst using my device, it's not lagging it's not jumping or "Snappy" it's just a quick phone, the same as every other device is once i've modded it and got it the way i like it, if you don't mod your phone then that's your journey, but if you make a claim that a device is not fluid or quick or anything else and you make that assumption in a place where people have just that then you really should expect those people to tell you that you're wrong, which is simply what i've done
EDIT: @toster jp if you're going to go on like that, i'll just tell you to see what i wrote above too.
If you're having these problems then you either don't know what you're doing or you're being beyond nitpicky.
Either way you're wrong.
And as for a stock experience, i was one of the original pledgers who has paid their amount even though i dont use stock no more.
Please do a bit of reading before you assume something http://forum.xda-developers.com/one-m9/general/bounty-htc-one-m9-aosp-cm12-1-camera-t3193175 I do not see your name on that list ? I was also the guy who realised that snap cameras api allows the usage of video recording when there was a problem with it, you're welcome
@dladz
Your last comment is such a mess. It also proves nothing and have no much sens to be honest. Your phone don't lag? Great - it doesn't mean that Your phone is fluid, and thats the point. You are just admitting that snapinnes equals to smoothnes for You. ( With animations turned out Your phone won't lag either is it smoooth now? )
Motorola is using modified stock, = its no longer stock android, its simple as that. And if You cannot see a difference betwen them then well, its just a good sign that You weren't using stock android much..
Also - details makes a difference. Details are part of user experience that You don't care much from what I can see.
Lastly, the recents tab, again, i do not have any sort of lag whilst using my device, it's not lagging it's not jumping or "Snappy" it's just a quick phone, the same as every other device is once i've modded it and got it the way i like it, if you don't mod your phone then that's your journey, but if you make a claim that a device is not fluid or quick or anything else and you make that assumption in a place where people have just that then you really should expect those people to tell you that you're wrong, which is simply what i've done
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And who doesn't mod their phone out there? If someone is wrong there its You and not us, but if You are satisfied with ' a quick phone without lags' then great for You. We just demend a bit more and yeah, we do care about those details that doesn't mater for You.
Please do a bit of reading before you assume something http://forum.xda-developers.com/one-...amera-t3193175 I do not see your name on that list ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You dont see my name on that list because I dont think that this device is worth even more money on it, 25bucks for s-off was enaugh for me That changes nothing anyway.
Btw, You are just trying to convince us that sense is smoother than pure android when its clearly not, and Your biggest points are that we are doing sth wrong couse Your phone isn't lagging? Or You are trying to convince us that details doesn't matter? Its just painful to read
In regards to me being a fan boy, may i remind you that this is the HTC section of XDA developers, this is a place for people who love the HTC device, what did you expect to find within this location? Being beyond presumptuous and blind to obviousness what is your point here? I fail to see it, if you've got a HTC device wouldn't that make you a fan boy too? If we aren't all fanboys here then something has gone very wrong for those people and they've bought the wrong device.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
XDA is not necesarly place for people who love HTC,( even in htc thread ) and no, owning HTC device doesn't make anybody a fanboy.
Thread cleaned and closed. Cursing and personal attacks are not allowed on the forums. We should be able to have a civilized non-emotional discussion.