Develop Bugs

Windows Phone Market Share

Much has been made of the Windows Phone slow start with maybe less that 2 million units in the hands of consumers. However I think that the recent predictions by Gartner, IDC etc... of about 20% by 2015 might be a little low. I think by 2015 Android and Windows Phone will have parity in software features, hardware and the number of OEM`s supporting them.
I also think the Nokia relationship definately pushes them to over 30% when you consider Nokia`s dominance in growing economies like China, India, Russia, Latin America and Africa. Its also clear how much Nokia needs windows phone to defend these markets against Android..
India and China alone are expected to see their middle class grow 10 fold by 2025. India currently has a middle class population of about 50 million people..
Its definately not just about whats happening in the North America or Western Europe!!!
This graphic tells the current state of play worldwide...
http://rww.readwriteweb.netdna-cdn....02/global-os-marketshare-feb.2011-o-27904.php

We'll see how well WP7 and Nokia really work together. From what we know, Bing Maps will get stuff from Ovi Maps (or be replaced by Ovi Maps?) and a Nokia App store will be added on top of the Windows Phone Marketplace. This might be nice for Nokia but I don't know if other phone makers will like this.
Also Nokia will not use WP7 in its current form. What that means is not very clear, but the start screen with all the pinned apps and stuff might not be there on nokia phones.

^ last I read, Nokia wont be doing any changes to the OS.

Yeah that's what I read some time ago which actually didn't bother me:
http://www.engadget.com/2011/02/11/nokia-will-be-able-to-customize-everything-in-windows-phone-7/
But then a few days ago this:
http://www.liveside.net/2011/04/29/will-nokia-phones-use-metro/

slimshady322 said:
But then a few days ago this:
http://www.liveside.net/2011/04/29/will-nokia-phones-use-metro/
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That article is very misleading. The part they claim to be a translated quote of Öistämö's comments was not that at all. It was a quote of a blog's interpretation of the comment that "Nokia will not adopt Windows Phone environment as it is today". Considering how vague that comment is, it could be taken many ways.
Besides, if Microsoft were to allow Nokia to make such fundamental UI changes, after forbidding HTC from doing the same, it could destroy their relationship with their other manufacturers.

Nokia will be adding things like better camera app, Navtek Data/ovi maps into the whole wp7 system, the OVI store, and differentiating itself with its hardware. The general OS will be untouched as to provide the consistent user experience across devices MS is looking for.
I personally cannot wait for the high end Nokia Windows Phones. And I believe they will also force the other OEM's to make better hardware as well to compete.

If nokia wont change anything on wp7 they will fail. Symbian maybe outdated and old but it has lots of nice features. Nokia fanboys may find wp7 lacking on every aspect. And what about the low-end phones from nokia? Will it too have wp7 on it. Nokia definitely made a wrong choice here. Nokia dominates on the Massess.

Nokia will be using WP7 for the low end after 2012 and WP8 for the high end devices... I think they will introduce new form factors also...
Sent from my OMNIA7 using XDA Windows Phone 7 App

ebzrascal said:
Nokia will be using WP7 for the low end after 2012 and WP8 for the high end devices... I think they will introduce new form factors also...
Sent from my OMNIA7 using XDA Windows Phone 7 App
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ewww, this will not sit well with people....
remember how pissed people were when they found they needed to buy vista ultimate office wildcard edition for xyz featureset ?
ok, now compound that pissed off consumer with a 2 year contract, and having to upgrade a piece of hardware ($600 off contract, no upgrade eligiblilty) to get xyz featureset...
I predict some pissed folks !
this is where apple got it right, and ms should have learned already:
same phone, just more storage
android?
a billion phones + 1 click root = any software you ever wanted

There's no way to predict anything for 2015 with any reliability. The best you can do is take current factors and extrapolate. Currently phones have very short lives (1-2 years in the hands of a customer), and without loyalty market shares change dramatically very fast. There's nothing that prevents users from switching - "apps" are too cheap to be a real barrier, and on Android they don't even serve this purpose because so many are free.
So there's brands and distribution power. Arguably, the only real smartphone brand is owned by Apple. Everything else is up in the air.
That being said, WP7 needs dozens of phones, and not just from Nokia, to have a sizable market.
Its also interesting to see what Apple is going to do with that billion dollar datacentre.

The only companies in this market with Brand Loyalty is RIM, APPLE and Nokia....
Thats why Nokia is huge for WP7 especially in the emerging markets where their lead is considerable and economic growth is much higher than the North America and Western Europe.....
If Nokia raises the profile of Windows Phone then HTC, Samsung and LG will all benifit. It will be interesting to see if Sony Ericssron and Motorola make devices in future if all goes as predicted...

ebzrascal said:
The only companies in this market with Brand Loyalty is RIM, APPLE and Nokia....
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Symbian has brand loyalty, not Nokia. If SE would start putting out Symbian phones with their hardware designs, good screens, and their good cameras, I bet a lot of people who are Symbian loyalists would go there, but Sony dumped Symbian too
Thats why Nokia is huge for WP7 especially in the emerging markets where their lead is considerable and economic growth is much higher than the North America and Western Europe.....
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That's assuming most of those people will accept the functionality disparity and go with WP7 as opposed to moving to devices from RIM or Android devices. Those forcases are all very ambitious. I don't think they will play out as well as peopel think it would. Most of them assumed like 90 to 100% of Nokia's current customers will go from Symbian to WP7, which I simply don't see happening...
If Nokia raises the profile of Windows Phone then HTC, Samsung and LG will all benifit. It will be interesting to see if Sony Ericssron and Motorola make devices in future if all goes as predicted...
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If Nokia's pricing for WP7 handsets in this part of the world is the same as their high end Symbian phone prices, they will still lose badly here to HTC/Samsung/LG/Sony/etc. because price matters.
Microsoft is giving Nokia a competitive edge over the other manufacturers at the moment.
But a manufacturer like Samsung has the capacity to make better phones than Nokia. Microsoft really limited Samsung WRT the Focus (no Hummingbird (wildly superior to 1st gen snapdragons - ESP the GPU), and it seems like the sound hardware isn't as good as the Galaxy S phones, either). Using old hardware helps manufacturers like Nokia and HTC who are trying to maximize margins, but it hurts manufacturers like Samsung who have their own, better, hardware they could use...
If they don't let up soon the other manufacturers may just drop it and concentrate on Android (except HTC, they'll just use an old blueprint and put a new OS on it and call it a day).

N8ter said:
Symbian has brand loyalty, not Nokia. If SE would start putting out Symbian phones with their hardware designs, good screens, and their good cameras, I bet a lot of people who are Symbian loyalists would go there, but Sony dumped Symbian too
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I disagree Nokia has the Brand loyalty not Symbian at least with the average customer... Nokia stands for Reliabilty and Quality in hardware and optics.
N8ter said:
That's assuming most of those people will accept the functionality disparity and go with WP7 as opposed to moving to devices from RIM or Android devices. Those forcases are all very ambitious. I don't think they will play out as well as peopel think it would. Most of them assumed like 90 to 100% of Nokia's current customers will go from Symbian to WP7, which I simply don't see happening...
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When Nokia devices arrive with Mango built in there will be no functionality disparity!!! between WP7 and RIM/ANDROID/IOS
N8ter said:
If Nokia's pricing for WP7 handsets in this part of the world is the same as their high end Symbian phone prices, they will still lose badly here to HTC/Samsung/LG/Sony/etc. because price matters.
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Just checked Expansys and the N8 is selling for 400ukp and the E72 250ukp which is definately comparible to Android and Blackberry...
N8ter said:
Microsoft is giving Nokia a competitive edge over the other manufacturers at the moment.
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Well they are giving WP7 a huge push in distribution to India, China, Russia, Latin America and African markets. China already has a smartphone market which half the size of the US market and its exected to grow rapidly. They are also bring functionality to Windows Phone like OVI Maps and Navigation.
N8ter said:
But a manufacturer like Samsung has the capacity to make better phones than Nokia. Microsoft really limited Samsung WRT the Focus (no Hummingbird (wildly superior to 1st gen snapdragons - ESP the GPU), and it seems like the sound hardware isn't as good as the Galaxy S phones, either). Using old hardware helps manufacturers like Nokia and HTC who are trying to maximize margins, but it hurts manufacturers like Samsung who have their own, better, hardware they could use...
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I would expect support for Hummingbird, Tegra 3 etc to come later when Windows Phone is established and are selling hundreds of millions of devices
N8ter said:
If they don't let up soon the other manufacturers may just drop it and concentrate on Android (except HTC, they'll just use an old blueprint and put a new OS on it and call it a day).
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Why would the OEM`s want to depend soley on Android ?? Eventually I see Motorola and especially Sony Ericsson making Windows Phones probably in late 2012...

Nokia rumour mill starts, bye bye nokia ?

http://www.osnews.com/story/25480/Microsoft_To_Acquire_Nokia_s_Smartphone_Division_
.......
Microsoft To Acquire Nokia's Smartphone Division? posted by Thom Holwerda on Thu 5th Jan 2012 11:25 UTC This rumour is not new, nor is it particularly earth-shattering. However, with Windows Phone 7 failing to make a dent in the market place, and Nokia's Lumia 800 not making huge waves either, the rumour's been taken out of the shed again: Microsoft is supposedly acquiring Nokia's smartphone division later this year. Stephen Elop will resign from Nokia shortly afterwards.
This time around, the rumour's being rekindled by Eldar Murtazin, the Russian editor-in-chief of Mobile-Review.com. He has a pretty good track record regarding Nokia, and has often had very, very early access to device prototypes and other information. However, as always, a firm pile of salt should be readily available at all times when reading this.
"Steve Balmer, Andy Lees and Stephen Elop, Kai Ostamo will meet in Las Vegas to finalize agreement about Nokia smartphone unit," he tweeted. The deal is apparently so that Microsoft also gets a few manufacturing plants, and, of course, an extensive patent portfolio. The Nokia name is set to disappear from the Microsoft smartphones that would follow from this acquisition.
It would leave Nokia with its feature phone business, networking equipment, and an assortment of other activities. While many think this would mean the end of Nokia, I highly doubt it will be - the company is 140 years old, has survived multiple crises and product transitions (they started out as a paper company, after all). Nokia will survive, even without smartphones, but that doesn't make it any less tragic.
This deal certainly wouldn't surprise me in the slightest. It's becoming ever more clear that all those naysayers were right, back when the Microsoft-Nokia deal was announced. Stephen Elop is a mole, with only one goal: to drive Nokia into the ground, so that Microsoft can swoop in and acquire the interesting parts for a relatively low price. The N9 demonstrated that Nokia did have an option besides the failing Windows Phone 7, and that the deal with Microsoft wasn't a necessity at all.
We'll have to see how it all pans out over the course of 2012, but this doesn't seem like a crazy prediction. Sad.
.......
Patent mongering ?
Company absorbtion ?
Apple-like hardware control ?
Discuss

wouldn't be surprising. Symbian still the most used smartphone OS, I just don't understand why the company didn't improve, and update it. They killed the proven Symbian OS ,for a unproven unpopular OS that they have no control over.
Sent from my Nexus S

It won't surprise me either.
My 2 years old Symbian nokia, can do at least everything my WP7 can do, + even much more things.
the only problema is the screen-res thats 320x240.
Nokia went from actually good OS with no future, to an actually bad OS, with a very doubt future.

Eh, last I checked the lumia 800 series was doing great in Europe...

z33dev33l said:
Eh, last I checked the lumia 800 series was doing great in Europe...
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If you have a link to official sales numbers, please post. I've read a lot of speculation on both +/- for sales over there, but no official numbers.
Either way, I'm second guessing microsofts intentions, if any.

I started ignoring anything Eldar Murtazin says a long time ago

ohgood said:
If you have a link to official sales numbers, please post. I've read a lot of speculation on both +/- for sales over there, but no official numbers.
Either way, I'm second guessing microsofts intentions, if any.
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Strangely the same request for confirmation doesnt seem to be made when the talk is of low WP7 sales, just accepted as the truth.
Anyway, Nokia has denied it, update at the botttom of this story: http://www.slashgear.com/microsofts-nokia-smartphone-division-acquisition-tipped-imminent-05206304/

The rumor may or may not be true (and it most likely is not), but public denials are not now, nor have they ever been, proof that an acquisition is not imminent. I have worked for numerous companies that have been acquired, and in every case, right up until the day the acquisition was officially announced, the companies that I worked for denied the "rumors". That is just standard business practice to avoid too much market volatility.

efjay said:
Strangely the same request for confirmation doesnt seem to be made when the talk is of low WP7 sales, just accepted as the truth.
Anyway, Nokia has denied it, update at the botttom of this story: http://www.slashgear.com/microsofts-nokia-smartphone-division-acquisition-tipped-imminent-05206304/
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yep the truth is still tied up somewhere... apple loves to flaunt 4 million sales in a weekend, android 500,000+ activations a day... and microsoft, balmer only says that sales were less than expected. not much to go on. :-(
you mentioned the update, her's the text:
Update: Nokia UK has given us the following comment:
“We’ve put these rumours to rest a long time ago. The focus for Nokia is on executing on our partnership around Windows Phone and growing the ecosystem, and each company has the tools they need to do so”
yes, that sounds like the normal corporate-speak for "we don't want insider trading or speculations hurting our stocks" as normal.
still waiting on official numbers, and apparently waiting a little longer for a possible aquisition.

It would be awesome if MS could have their own branded phones like Apple.

hexcorev2 said:
It would be awesome if MS could have their own branded phones like Apple.
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Well that would upset HTC, Samsung etc. and also take all the Nokia-coolness away from the phones.

slimshady322 said:
Well that would upset HTC, Samsung etc. and also take all the Nokia-coolness away from the phones.
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posted before I did
the nokia venture is ultimately a bad idea especially if it is relegated to the dumb phone scene

vetvito said:
wouldn't be surprising. Symbian still the most used smartphone OS, I just don't understand why the company didn't improve, and update it. They killed the proven Symbian OS ,for a unproven unpopular OS that they have no control over.
Sent from my Nexus S
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You would say that.
Where again where Symbian sales heading for Nokia? They were bleeding marketshare. The writing was on the wall for Symbian. Argue that Nokia should have gone to Android, but not that they should not have stuck with Symbian.
Symbian was not going anywhere positive. The overhead of making your own software has exponential penalties when you are losing sales. The app catalogue was not progressing. Now instead of slowly dying like RIM, Nokia made a gamble. Microsoft could provide them with some perks that the open source world of Android could not.
Now, just like I see a conflict of interest with Google owning Motorola, I see a problem with Microsoft owning Nokia. But maybe they can spin it like Google did -
"We did this to protect the ecosystem. Motorola will operate separately. Don't be worried."

nokia showed an overall growth w/ symbian last year
isn't that extremely positive for a sinking ship
And it is still number one in terms of international handset maker even if samsung is closing in really fast

nicksti said:
You would say that.
Where again where Symbian sales heading for Nokia? They were bleeding marketshare. The writing was on the wall for Symbian. Argue that Nokia should have gone to Android, but not that they should not have stuck with Symbian.
Symbian was not going anywhere positive. The overhead of making your own software has exponential penalties when you are losing sales. The app catalogue was not progressing. Now instead of slowly dying like RIM, Nokia made a gamble. Microsoft could provide them with some perks that the open source world of Android could not.
Now, just like I see a conflict of interest with Google owning Motorola, I see a problem with Microsoft owning Nokia. But maybe they can spin it like Google did -
"We did this to protect the ecosystem. Motorola will operate separately. Don't be worried."
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Selective reading? You miss the part where I said "improve". All they had to do was update.
You do know Symbian still outsells Win phone, don't you?
Sent from my Nexus S

Saying all Nokia had to do is improve Symbian is kind of like saying all Microsoft needed to do to compete with the iPhone was to improve Windows Mobile
Anyway, it looks like the market and analysts are now expecting good things from Nokia. Hopefully they are right

technically speaking, winphone is a improvement of WM. Unless you're not thinking logically.
Sent from my Nexus S

vetvito said:
Selective reading? You miss the part where I said "improve". All they had to do was update.
You do know Symbian still outsells Win phone, don't you?
Sent from my Nexus S
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I did not selectively read. Because improving it oh so easy. The OS was flat not not attractive. Symbian Anna and Belle are improvements but its nowhere near Android.
Your product is crap. Just improve it.
Last numbers I saw Symbian was still the #1 OS in certain markets. That because Nokia puts Symbian on near everything. Have you owned any Symbian phones? I have. Remember Nokia's share used to be 40%. Last number I saw was in the 20s. Why? Smartphone explosion.
Symbian was sinking and taking Nokia with them. Fact.

So you ditch it, and still sink? Meego was a great alternative, all I'm saying is don't foolishly put all your eggs in one basket.
Symbian, Meego, and Winphone couldve helped Nokia.
Sent from my Nexus S

vetvito said:
So you ditch it, and still sink? Meego was a great alternative, all I'm saying is don't foolishly put all your eggs in one basket.
Symbian, Meego, and Winphone couldve helped Nokia.
Sent from my Nexus S
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What about the expenses and overheads of the company? What about the business aspect of that decision? Nokia's problem was they had too many OSes.
Symbian S40, S60 5th edition, Symbian UIQ, S^3, Meego, Maemo. And a partridge in a pear tree.
But in a btw, since 'killing off" Symbian, they have released updates and new phones using Symbian. Maybe there is a place for Symbian like there is a place for Bada and Brew.
Vet, you obvious do not like Windows Phone. At all. But Symbian was a dead end. And Meego? Cmon. They are not getting to 50,000 apps in under a year with Meego. The only valid argument I can understand is Nokia should have ditched Symbian for Android.

Lumia owner cheated and angry.

Of the lumia 900 owners, how many of you feel cheated and angry over how Microsoft is handling WP8.
1. Yes
2. No

A little cheated. Glad MS tried with 7.8 but I'm just worried about how that will fare down the line with 22 months left on my contract. Don't think I'll be waiting to find out.

pgsxdjp said:
A little cheated. Glad MS tried with 7.8 but I'm just worried about how that will fare down the line with 22 months left on my contract. Don't think I'll be waiting to find out.
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I believe it's a very good point for the class action against MS and AT&T. Just keep googling for that and be ready to join

Won my lumia 900, and I planed to get an updated wp8 device anyway, so, to answer your question, no I don't feel cheated. I might be angry at myself anyway for buying one knowing dual core was coming in a few months (if I had signed a contract)

Considering all the features coming for WP8 and 7.8 haven't been announced yet, I don't feel cheated at all. I imagine more is coming in 7.8 than they stated today. Joe Belfiore was very specific that they have MANY great things to talk about with consumer features, but that wasn't the point of the conference today.

I'll feel pretty cheated if the only features WP7.8 gets is the new start screen...

pgsxdjp said:
A little cheated. Glad MS tried with 7.8 but I'm just worried about how that will fare down the line with 22 months left on my contract. Don't think I'll be waiting to find out.
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Click to collapse
Im going to sell.

The technoweenie in me wants to buy a WP8 when it comes out, but the realistic human in me feels cheated...
I just bought the Lumia 900, and to hear that a new version of the OS is coming out soon and that the product I just bought will be un-supported and development ceased (for the most part) pisses me off...
I'm pissed off enough that I'm still waiting for a purple screen fix, and now this?

If I were a Lumia owner I'd definitely feel cheated.
Looks like the Lumia 900 is going to be the Galaxy S+ of the Windows world.
Thrown to the market and 2 months afterwards you got outdated software because the manufacturer never planned to provide updates.
Not receiving updates seems to get normal in the mobile industry in some way.
This would be the point to switch to Android for me, but I'm not a big WP7 fan I have to admit.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using XDA

land.apfel said:
If I were a Lumia owner I'd definitely feel cheated.
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Why? We don't even know the Windows Phone 7.8 features?
land.apfel said:
Thrown to the market and 2 months afterwards you got outdated software because the manufacturer never planned to provide updates.
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We've received two manufacturer updates already. And there have been at least two announced future updates... Tango and Windows Phone 7.8.
dtboos said:
Considering all the features coming for WP8 and 7.8 haven't been announced yet, I don't feel cheated at all.
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This is an interesting concept. So you think we should actually wait and see what updated features we will be getting before criticizing them? Great idea!
gbjohnson said:
Of the lumia 900 owners, how many of you feel cheated and angry over how Microsoft is handling WP8.
1. Yes
2. No
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Once all Windows Phone 8 and 7.8 are out why don't you ask this question and add a poll to your thread? Make it a good poll with at least one option that says I'm satisfied.

There is still a chance that Nokia will provide WP8 on the Lumia 800/900 isn't there? I wouldn't jump to any conclusions just yet.
Before anyone starts ranting about the announcement, Nokia is not Microsoft. Stop, think. Avoid replying anyway.

at45 said:
There is still a chance that Nokia will provide WP8 on the Lumia 800/900 isn't there? I wouldn't jump to any conclusions just yet.
Before anyone starts ranting about the announcement, Nokia is not Microsoft. Stop, think. Avoid replying anyway.
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I don't know about the Hardware requirements. I haven't watched the keynote, but I don't think they've given a NFC requirement for all phones. Interesting thought. I guess it could happen. I don't think it will, although it would be nice, of course. Then again, maybe WP7.8 will be better than thought. Who knows?

I don't understand what it is people think they will be missing. WP8 brings support for dual core, high def screens, and NFC hardware. Does your phone have any of that? No. So you wouldn't be able to enjoy those features anyway even if WP8 did run on your phone.
Ok so we may not get the true multi tasking and Skype running in the background - we don't actually know yet - but did you buy your phone only on the basis that you would definitely get that one day? Is your phone suddenly going to stop working the day WP8 comes out? Are app developers all suddenly going to abandon the installed base of users for a new OS that doesn't have one yet?

When I got my Lumia two weeks ago, I knew that there was Skype coming with "serious" integration and VoIP API for others. I also knew that Microsoft bought Skype so I was expecting it.
At least that the Lumia 800 was for free.

OndraSter said:
When I got my Lumia two weeks ago, I knew that there was Skype coming with "serious" integration and VoIP API for others. I also knew that Microsoft bought Skype so I was expecting it.
At least that the Lumia 800 was for free.
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Its always been said that skype couldnt work on WP7 due to the way the OS operates and while its not great im still happy they released some sort of app rather then not bother at all

sensboston said:
I believe it's a very good point for the class action against MS and AT&T. Just keep googling for that and be ready to join
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Click to collapse
You can't be serious?!

Zero. Give thanks that you get 7.8. Try to image Android users still stuck on Froyo or Gingerbread. Or 3GS or iPhone 4 users moving to iOS6.
Get over it and move to the future. 8 looks to be a fantastic competitor to iOS and Android.

bmstrong said:
Zero. Give thanks that you get 7.8. Try to image Android users still stuck on Froyo or Gingerbread. Or 3GS or iPhone 4 users moving to iOS6.
Get over it and move to the future. 8 looks to be a fantastic competitor to iOS and Android.
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This is different. The Lumia is a flagship that just came out. I'm amazed at how some of you are okay with this.
"Get over it and move to the future."?
Wtf man, what about all the people who got this on contract? You expect them to just "move to the future" and buy a new device off contract this early on?
Sent from my HTC PH39100 using xda premium

LOL... I think Nokia gonna do something to help out the customer who did bought the Lumia product recently... I got what you mean...
Da, it sucks to register for a device for 2 years and then stuck with it (that is why i never sign the damn contract). But i believe Windows Phone 7.8 is actually Windows Phone 8 BUT without all the functions that require the physical hardware to handle.
Time will tell. Personally, i don't feel any lost, i changed phone almost every holiday season of the year. 2010 = First Windows Phone (HD7), 2011 = Mango Windows Phone (Eternity) , 2012 = Windows Phone 8. I am curious about what HTC has to offer for us.

redwhiteandblue said:
I don't understand what it is people think they will be missing. WP8 brings support for dual core, high def screens, and NFC hardware. Does your phone have any of that? No. So you wouldn't be able to enjoy those features anyway even if WP8 did run on your phone.
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I think you may have just described Microsoft's reason for not updating existing phones i.e. not because they are too old or too slow but because they won't benefit enough from the new features to justify the investment.
"Microsoft’s Greg Sullivan revealed the reasons behind the company’s choice not to offer a direct upgrade from Windows Phone 7.x to Windows Phone 8.
Describing some of the latest hardware changes in Windows Phone 8, that we outline here, Sullivan explained that "the nature of the investment [in Windows Phone 8] is primarily in areas that are not exploitable by existing hardware." Windows Phone 8 introduces support for multi-core processors, amongst other things, so the "Lumia 900 getting support for using dual-core or NFC doesn't mean a lot," says Sullivan, "because it doesn't have the hardware to take advantage of that." Microsoft decided to focus its efforts on Windows Phone 8 to make it as good as it possibly could. "To do the work to bring all of those elements to a platform that can't exploit them wasn't necessarily the most efficient use of resource," explains Sullivan."
Source

Nokia or AT&T buyback program?...

So...this Nokia Lumia 900 made me break my 8 year relationship I've had with Sprint (though these past couple years haven't been the best watching the other carriers blow past me with superior networks) and my 3 year fix with Android. I knew nothing but Android, Sprint, Nextel, and Blackberry since I've owned a phone. And now I feel like I'm being thrown aside as a beta tester. I don't mean to rant but I wasn't that upset about this WP8 fiasco until recently because I've been thinking on everything else I've given up just for "The best deal in smarthphone market". I think what aggravates me most is that this wasn't just revealed when WE found about it, I'm sure Nokia has known this for months given how deep their ties to Microsoft are now.
Enough of my rant, back to my point: Is there any way you can see either Nokia or AT&T offering an early upgrade or a buyback program from people who sipped from the kool aid last? I made a huge commitment and also missed out on TWO superphones (One X and Galaxy S3) and now I'm left holding an obsolete device that's going to get reskinned in a few months...whoopdy whoo. Are there any loopholes around getting off contract or getting an early upgrade in regards to this situation?

http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=27761087&postcount=5
http://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/67729502-post215.html
Read and I hope you will truly understand what's in it other than the home screen.
And to be fair, you guys in the US bought the phone only for 100 USD or rather Nokia gave you 50 USD for the phone. ( 450 off contract )
in other parts of the world you won't even get such an amazing device at that price, ATT subsidies quite a hefty amount. I bought mine for 600 USD off contract.
But overal I still think its worth it given how good the experience is, don't mind about the cores, rams .. Its just a marketing gimmick to me.
I suggest you to wait and see what Microsoft have in store for 7.8 update,it can't be just another UI changes.
Remember 7.5 mango? They really overdelivered but they announced too early and as a result, many features were copied to Android.

LastBattle said:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=27761087&postcount=5
http://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/67729502-post215.html
Read and I hope you will truly understand what's in it other than the home screen.
And to be fair, you guys in the US bought the phone only for 100 USD or rather Nokia gave you 50 USD for the phone. ( 450 off contract )
in other parts of the world you won't even get such an amazing device at that price, ATT subsidies quite a hefty amount. I bought mine for 600 USD off contract.
But overal I still think its worth it given how good the experience is, don't mind about the cores, rams .. Its just a marketing gimmick to me.
I suggest you to wait and see what Microsoft have in store for 7.8 update,it can't be just another UI changes.
Remember 7.5 mango? They really overdelivered but they announced too early and as a result, many features were copied to Android.
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I was exaggerating when I said that it was just a new home screen, but in reality the entire source code was scrapped and almost built from the ground up. This is GREAT for the evolution of the WP8 OS...but not so much for those of us who will hit a wall with 7.8. Once that releases for us why SHOULD anybody (including MS and Nokia) really care too much about us? The real focus, as it should be, will making sure that WP8 will be the smoothest and best kept OS across three platforms, not in pleasing us legacy WP7.8 guys.
We will become an afterthought in their minds, because Microsoft is either blatantly lying to us or naive enough to believe that developers are going to waste their time porting everything over to 7.8. And before somebody jumps in and points out that it's now a streamlined process and relatively easy to port over to 7.8 theoretically, that doesn't mean it'll happen. Because 7.5 really isn't receiving the best support now outside of MS and Nokia and a few select developers, so what's going to all of a sudden change when a new shinier OS is out there? Why are dev's all of a sudden gonna care about us?
This is why I feel we should be compensated in some way. My Lumia 900 is in relative pristine condition, I should be able to trade it in for a new Windows Phone, pay $200, and renew my 2 year contract because Microsoft and Nokia and AT&T sold me a lie saying the beta test was over. This is about the most ironic marketing campaign I've bore witnessed to in the last couple of years. I'm upset, and I'm usually one to just accept these sort of corporate carrot danglings (especially in the tech world) but I'm really surprised there's no petition from other Lumia customers asking for something similar to what I proposed.

Hopefully we can hack 8 to lumia 900
I still hope that there is no technical reason to not install wp 8 to lumia 900 or other hw.
Same as you could put an android to an old windows 6 mobile.
We yet to see if it's possible or not. hopefully they didn't make it impossible.
The problem is probably with the upgrade. you would need to reload a new firmware loosing all the settings, all your apps if they re not yet on 8 ( even those you've paid for). That would piss people even more probably and maybe that's why there is no official upgrade path ?
This is my 2cent and really hope to hack 8 to my lumia 900.

How many petitions do we need?!?

Isnt it simple to call Verizon or whatever to cancel the contract and get a refund? Just asking, It just seems that after the announcement, Every single WP user went ALL RAGE!!!! But, hasnt anyone thought of contacting the carrier instead?

OptimusLove said:
Isnt it simple to call Verizon or whatever to cancel the contract and get a refund? Just asking, It just seems that after the announcement, Every single WP user went ALL RAGE!!!! But, hasnt anyone thought of contacting the carrier instead?
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Doesn't breach any contract by the carriers, hardware manufacturers or software vendors. Don't see why would Verizon, HTC/Nokia or MSFT is liable for any refund.

OptimusLove said:
Isnt it simple to call Verizon or whatever to cancel the contract and get a refund? Just asking, It just seems that after the announcement, Every single WP user went ALL RAGE!!!! But, hasnt anyone thought of contacting the carrier instead?
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How exactly are the carriers responsible that they should nullify the contract? It's been no secret that there was an extreme likelihood that current WP7 phones would not get the Apollo upgrade. There was nothing official. Prudence would dictate that you wait for an official statement or wait until something is actually released before committing to a 2 year contract. Some people just didn't want to wait and now feel "entitled" to something they never deserved. Gonna be dumb, ya gotta be tough.

fatclue said:
How exactly are the carriers responsible that they should nullify the contract? It's been no secret that there was an extreme likelihood that current WP7 phones would not get the Apollo upgrade. There was nothing official. Prudence would dictate that you wait for an official statement or wait until something is actually released before committing to a 2 year contract. Some people just didn't want to wait and now feel "entitled" to something they never deserved. Gonna be dumb, ya gotta be tough.
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Its the user that will request to nullify so that, they(the user) can sell the phone, save the money to buy a new one.

OptimusLove said:
Its the user that will request to nullify so that, they(the user) can sell the phone, save the money to buy a new one.
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I know it's the user who wants to cancel. What I meant was why would the carrier agree to nullify? Buyer's remorse? Sorry, make an informed purchase like the rest of us or pay the unsubsidized price if you want to swap devices on a whim.

Let us start a petition to end all the petitions.

nicksti said:
Let us start a petition to end all the petitions.
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Count me in!

nicksti said:
Let us start a petition to end all the petitions.
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Agreed, I bet those petitioners dont know their carriers phone numbers.

nicksti said:
Let us start a petition to end all the petitions.
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Agreed. Not to sound mean or insensitive, but man am I sick and tired of all the whiny, prissy, entitled little asshats stamping around like a deranged toddler who's parent says no to the damned coco puffs.
I bought my Samsung Focus almost 2 years ago, and in that time MS has given me numerous updates for free, ALL of which have not just added features but actually IMPROVED the performance of the device and reduced the memory footprint. We already know Tango will do the same, and it's a safe bet that the new Start screen won't dramatically impact memory usage.
Contrast that with my Apple experience, where for 2 years every new version of iOS became more bloated and made my phone run slower and slower, each and EVERY time claiming the new OS version number as newer devices, yet NEVER giving me all the features of those devices, and ultimately ruining--yes, RUINING--my device to the point where it was unusable due to the slowness of its bloated, hackneyed OS.
When Microsoft finishes the run of WP7 devices, each and EVERY phone that runs the OS will continue to be usable, will continue to run better than it ever has in its lifespan, and will continue to be supported by a marketplace that currently has more than 100,000 apps.
Let me be plain: there is NOTHING HERE TO WHINE ABOUT. Grow up, accept that you're never going to own a piece of technology that will be "future proof," and move forward with your life.
There is NO SUCH THING as future proof. It's a marketing lie, and if you're dumb enough to believe it that's nobody's fault but your own.

equal refidera
In the U.S., if you get a subsidized phone you could always leave before the contract expires. However, you are obligated to pay an early termination fee. Exact amount depends on how long you stayed so far. People who bought the 2nd generation Windows Phones probably started their 2 year term not too long ago and would pay a relatively high fee.
As far as the number of petitions goes, I think it shows that users are not happy seeing their relatively new device already obsolete because it cannot run any WP8 apps. It is not just the most-demanding apps or ones that demand better hardware. It is all of them.
Even if this sort of thing happens with Android or Apple, it is still a problem here because there are so many petitions/complaints. Add to this that there was a platform reset just 2 years ago with Windows Mobile and the fact that there are not too many Windows Phone users to begin with, I think this is an issue in which Microsoft has to be proactive and find a workable solution. Google and Apple can afford to piss off a few customers as their base is huge. Unfortunately, Microsoft does not have that luxury. Likewise, it does Microsoft no good if their users are complaining at the same time MS is trying to get these same people onto WP8.
Microsoft, Nokia, and whomever else should just implement some type of trade-in program where current WP7 users can get a WP8 device with a fair discount. Then if people want a WP8 device right away, they do not have to wait over a year until your contract ends. I am sure Microsoft wants tons of WP8 users immediately to attract app developers. With a trade-in, this would certainly happen. If Microsoft does nothing, people could very well stay angry and go to Android or Apple when their contract is up. Even if everybody suddenly accepts the current WP7 situation and became happy with MS, it would still take a long time (if ever) for WP8 to get reach a decent sized userbase. That is why I believe Microsoft should do something to get almost everybody using WP7 onto WP8 come this fall.

jasongw said:
Agreed. Not to sound mean or insensitive, but man am I sick and tired of all the whiny, prissy, entitled little asshats stamping around like a deranged toddler who's parent says no to the damned coco puffs.
I bought my Samsung Focus almost 2 years ago, and in that time MS has given me numerous updates for free, ALL of which have not just added features but actually IMPROVED the performance of the device and reduced the memory footprint. We already know Tango will do the same, and it's a safe bet that the new Start screen won't dramatically impact memory usage.
Contrast that with my Apple experience, where for 2 years every new version of iOS became more bloated and made my phone run slower and slower, each and EVERY time claiming the new OS version number as newer devices, yet NEVER giving me all the features of those devices, and ultimately ruining--yes, RUINING--my device to the point where it was unusable due to the slowness of its bloated, hackneyed OS.
When Microsoft finishes the run of WP7 devices, each and EVERY phone that runs the OS will continue to be usable, will continue to run better than it ever has in its lifespan, and will continue to be supported by a marketplace that currently has more than 100,000 apps.
Let me be plain: there is NOTHING HERE TO WHINE ABOUT. Grow up, accept that you're never going to own a piece of technology that will be "future proof," and move forward with your life.
There is NO SUCH THING as future proof. It's a marketing lie, and if you're dumb enough to believe it that's nobody's fault but your own.
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This post deserves a medal.
Sent from my SGH-I777 using xda premium

MikeyMike01 said:
This post deserves a medal.
Sent from my SGH-I777 using xda premium
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Lool.

Here's a email I sent to Microsoft's [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected]
Hi Everyone,
I'm sending this email for two reasons. First I have been a Windows Phone user since 2004 when HP released the first pocket pc phone, HP 6315. I then purchased the HP 6515 and HP 6915. I then purchased the HTC Touch P4000 windows 5.0 and then HTC Touch diamond 6.1, HTC Touch Pro 2 windows 6.5.
And when Microsoft released Windows Phone 7, I purshased HTC Surround and then just last week I purchased for my wife the new Nokia 900 and the HTC Titan2 for my self, plus my two kids have a HTC Surround and HTC HD7S.
The reason that I mentioned all these phone is to show my dedication to the windows phone platform, and just two let you know I have been a long time Windows user as well. My first Windows desktop was Windows 1.0.
I heard this week that our second generation phones won't get the Windows Phone 8 upgrade, Considering we just bought that latest phones and they will be outdated in a couple of months, I feel for the first time ripped off considering Apples Iphone 3 will upgrade to os6.
I would thing that you would want to keep your loyal customers, and for the first time I'm debating if we don't get the update to Windows Phone 8 to change phone platforms, and this really hurts considering how much I believe in Microsoft's products. THanks again I look forward to your response.
Yours Truly,
Mark Connors
MC Engineers
Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer
NSCSA Safety Certified 2012
[email protected]
Here is Peter Chou for HTC reply:
Dear Mark,
Thanks for supporting HTC products for so long and so many years. Win8 is a big step so we are not able to upgrade to win 7 devices. However we will have a win7 upgrade version which will have most of the win8 experience.
Regards.
Peter
Here's Steven Rlop for Nokia reply:
Dear Mark,
There are advances in hardware in future devices that will enable new experiences that will not be available on the existing devices. And yet, you will see some of the WP8 features on WP 7 devices, and, on the Nokia devices, there is a wide array of additional capability being provided. Just as with an older Apple product that cannot do many of the new things, we will continue to enhance what can be done.
Regards,
Stephen
Here's my reply back to everyone.
Hi Everyone,
Thanks for your quick reply. I'm a PLC programmer and software developer myself so I know how it works with hardware and software. That being said when Microsoft released Windows 7 they created Windows starter for pc's with minimum hardware specs,
So why doesn't Microsoft create Windows Phone 8 for the new devices and Windows Phone 8 light for the older devices. I realize that Windows Phone 7.8 is that lighter version but in the public's eyes they look at it as not getting the next version of Windows Phone 8. And last I think if Microsoft rolls out the lighter version and calls it Windows Phone 8 for first and second generation phones plus explain it has most of the functionalities as the new phones, the majority of Windows Phone users would understand. Thanks again for your response.
Mark Connors
MC Engineers
Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer
NSCSA Safety Certified 2012
[email protected]
Peter Chou response was.
Mark, this is a good idea. We can look into that direction. Thanks again.
The interesting thing was the fact that Microsoft has never responded to any of my emails, so again it's like Microsoft really doesn't care about their customers.
I believe that Microsoft could have created two versions of Windows Phone 8, with support for new and old devices and if the first and second devices didn't support the particular software it wouldn't be activited in the first or second phones.
Mark Connors
MC Engineers
Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer
NSCSA Safety Certified 2012
[email protected]

I've got an idea. Let's allow the free enterprise system to do its thing. Those of you who feel "cheated" by Microsoft can go ahead and switch to another platform of your choosing. Those who switch to Android, be careful of what you wish for..... Those who switch to iOS, same goes for you too. When the dust settles and Google releases Jelly Bean, let's see how many existing handsets get the update. When OS6 comes out, let's see how slow and buggy your precious iPhone becomes. Be proactive, do what you need to do. But for God's sake do it and STFU already!

I'm sorry for my reply; I only wanted to express my concerns for the way Microsoft is dealing with the first and second generation devices. I wasn't trying to start a battle. Again I'm sorry, and your right it's hard to type and reply on a small screen without making mistakes..

mcsc said:
Apparently you missed the hole reason for the letter and if you could read between the lines and how long I have been with microsoft you would realize that I would never change platforms. That being said a a Engineer, microsoft could have released this differently. My letter was a point out that Bill, and Steve didn't even have the decently to reply.
And last if you can't reply with dignity using a acronym STFU, then you should post.
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(1) I wasn't referring to you.
(2) You should be embarrassed to sport your credentials so ostentatiously when you can't go a full sentence with either a spelling or grammatical error. Literally, not one correct sentence in your post.
(3) You and I have different methods to show angst. You write letters, I use acronyms. My dignity is intact.
BTW, I have credentials too. I have responsibilities within the healthcare field that you can't possibly fathom. My state & federal licensing credentials are quite impressive as well. I just like to let my hair down on these boards.

Gotta agree with fatclue...
The grammar in that post would be an embarrassment if the audience was 4th graders, and it was directed to 4 senior executives. Maybe the author should pursue a credential in business writing.
Also, why would anyone expect a reply from Bill Gates? Isn't he off feeding kids with malaria or something? I would hope that the rest have better things to do.
Respectfully,
Rev. Dr. Thaddeus James O'Pootertoot III, MD, JD, CPA, Ph.D, MBCP, MCA, MCAD, MCAS, MCDBA, MCDST, MCITP, MCLC, MCM, MCNE, MCP, MCP+I, MCP+SB, MCP+SB, MCPD, MCSA, MCSD, MCSD, MCSE, MCSE+I, MCT, MCTS, MCTs, MOS, MOUS, and all-around nice guy
:good::good::good::good::good:

@mcsc: I see your mistake: you think that because the iPhone 3GS will receive "iOS6" that means it'll be receiving the same OS as the later iPhones. I get the mistake--I made it myself, once.
But the fact is this: iPhone 3GS will NOT be receiving the same OS as later models. It'll show the same VERSION number--merely a string of text--but in no sense can it be called "the same OS." Instead, it contains a subset of what the newer version of the OS (which, let's face it, is itself a minor iteration of a stale OS) will have on newer devices, and if you want to get the full set of features, you WILL have to buy the iPhone 5, make no mistake. Even 4S will lack some of the features that iOS 6 will deliver to iPhone 5.
Essentially, Microsoft and Apple do the same thing, but with a clear distinction: Apple tells a lie-"look! We're giving you the latest OS!", and Microsoft tells the truth--"Sorry, your device won't support the new OS, but we'll make sure you get a few of its features."
The question is: do you prefer a pretty lie or a less pretty truth?

Your so right, I didn't look at it this way. I am quite happy with my phone and getting the windows phone 7.8 update, I just thought that microsoft should have released it as windows phone 8 for everyone, minas the enhancements that the first and second generation devices didn't support.

Forget about the 3GS, how old is it, really?
iPhone 4 and iPhone 4S, one year apart. The only thing the 4 didn't receive when the 4S came out was Siri, one exclusive feature for new model. If you want to look at the 3GS, it lacked facetime, one feature announced with the iPhone 4.
Here MS and Nokia have, what? Soon to be 6 months old L900 before a major update. What'll it receive? only one new visual feature while the functional rest is left out vs. "hey we are saving one new feature for our new model." Don't quote me where I got WP 7.8 only has the startscreen, if you want to believe WP and Nokia it's on you, not me, I'm done believing. What's more? the 3GS, while being 3 years old (released June 2009), is not considered a beta device and it served well, it still retains some value. Lumia 900? From $99 to free in 2 months (I don't count the $100 credits post launch), much like a feature phone. Plus, the thing is hyped this and that despite the OS isn't fully matured at this point of the competition, while iOS and Android can out-function WP any way. If not for loyalty and hope, who have been buying WP up until 6/20? After this treatment, I know many will be very skeptical about buying WP8. I myself will wait until WP8 truly establishes itself as a complete OS before buying. Can you confidently recommend WP? I know I no longer can't.
And before someone tells me to go buy an iOS or Android, think again. Is there anyone to tell people to "go buy a WP"? MS and Nokia, i am sure, don't want their consumer base to tell others to buy products from their primary competitors. iOS and Android don't care, because no one says go buy a WP. People would just be like, "what's that?," anyway. If WP users think the other consumers are missing out goodies in WP, then MS and Nokia are missing out their market share.
jasongw said:
@mcsc: I see your mistake: you think that because the iPhone 3GS will receive "iOS6" that means it'll be receiving the same OS as the later iPhones. I get the mistake--I made it myself, once.
But the fact is this: iPhone 3GS will NOT be receiving the same OS as later models. It'll show the same VERSION number--merely a string of text--but in no sense can it be called "the same OS." Instead, it contains a subset of what the newer version of the OS (which, let's face it, is itself a minor iteration of a stale OS) will have on newer devices, and if you want to get the full set of features, you WILL have to buy the iPhone 5, make no mistake. Even 4S will lack some of the features that iOS 6 will deliver to iPhone 5.
Essentially, Microsoft and Apple do the same thing, but with a clear distinction: Apple tells a lie-"look! We're giving you the latest OS!", and Microsoft tells the truth--"Sorry, your device won't support the new OS, but we'll make sure you get a few of its features."
The question is: do you prefer a pretty lie or a less pretty truth?
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Click to collapse