Develop Bugs

Hub is a new type of multitasking

I read more information about WP7 and the concept of Hub. I estimate the HUB is a new type of multitasking. The concept is OS will push the application to back group and freeze the UI, and the information for application will push to HUB, so user can catch the information from HUB. For example, while user using the TomTom,when you need return to Home,OS would push the TomTom to backgroup,and freeze the TomTom's UI ,music...,but user still can see the inf. from HUB eg, speed,direction)
Do you agree ?
Anyway , I love the concept of WP7 and HUB

Great thing about this hub. I think all these cries about no multitasking is stupid thing, because of not understanding the idea of hub...

iamcrazyfire said:
I read more information about WP7 and the concept of Hub. I estimate the HUB is a new type of multitasking. The concept is OS will push the application to back group and freeze the UI, and the information for application will push to HUB, so user can catch the information from HUB. For example, while user using the TomTom,when you need return to Home,OS would push the TomTom to backgroup,and freeze the TomTom's UI ,music...,but user still can see the inf. from HUB eg, speed,direction)
Do you agree ?
Anyway , I love the concept of WP7 and HUB
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yup...same as iphone.
In iphone you decide which application gets prime attention. The "one" button is the task killer. The apps on the pages is akin to the apps listed on a task manager. You pick which one you want to switch to. The others tasks are frozen.

Don't iPhone tasks actually end meaning their state is lost?

RustyGrom said:
Don't iPhone tasks actually end meaning their state is lost?
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Click to collapse
Not really....they are frozen (hibernate).
U start right back from where u left off.
Can't say that about games though.

chiks19018 said:
Yup...same as iphone.
In iphone you decide which application gets prime attention. The "one" button is the task killer. The apps on the pages is akin to the apps listed on a task manager. You pick which one you want to switch to. The others tasks are frozen.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
But iphone freeze whole application, the concept of mine is wp7 only freeze the UI and sound,wps7 stills allow application push the information to hub.If wps only run managed code is true ,this type of multitasking(multithreading) will not cash the whole OS cause of one of shiit

iamcrazyfire said:
But iphone freeze whole application, the concept of mine is wp7 only freeze the UI and sound,wps7 stills allow application push the information to hub.If wps only run managed code is true ,this type of multitasking(multithreading) will not cash the whole OS cause of one of shiit
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yeah...when iphone comes with 1.5ghz dual core processor, it will allow that too.

Multitasking requires that processing continues while the app doesn't have focus. What's being described above is simply suspending the app...not multitasking.
A good use of multitasking for example is: running a navigation app such as CoPilot 8, downloading a file with IE and talking on the phone all simultaneously. Ideally, you wouldn't want any of those apps to stop or suspend, you'd want them to continue running even though another app still has focus.
I don't know how a non-true-multitasking OS would handle doing what I just described. Even if it employed a sophisticated system of notifications and interrupts, I don't see how. I hope MS has a good work-around developed for WP7. My daily use of multitasking includes the use of MagiCall call manager app which always runs in the background filtering my SMS's and phone calls. iPhone doesn't have an app like that because it doesn't truly multitask.

Running a navigation software and then taking a phone call ... I have done this a lot and it is a good use-case.
And I dont think the new WP7 cannot do this. It is a phone device, taking a phone call should be the highest priority.
This would suck if the navigation software is then paused, I hope not. How is this on the iPhone?
But, running a navigation software ... while downloading a file ... and then taking a phone call?
You must be more specific, because I cannot imagine myself, on a running car using CoPilot and still managing my torrents That's dangerous ...
WhyBe said:
Multitasking requires that processing continues while the app doesn't have focus. What's being described above is simply suspending the app...not multitasking.
A good use of multitasking for example is: running a navigation app such as CoPilot 8, downloading a file with IE and talking on the phone all simultaneously. Ideally, you wouldn't want any of those apps to stop or suspend, you'd want them to continue running even though another app still has focus.
I don't know how a non-true-multitasking OS would handle doing what I just described. Even if it employed a sophisticated system of notifications and interrupts, I don't see how. I hope MS has a good work-around developed for WP7. My daily use of multitasking includes the use of MagiCall call manager app which always runs in the background filtering my SMS's and phone calls. iPhone doesn't have an app like that because it doesn't truly multitask.
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Click to collapse

well those were just random examples to illustrate the type of apps that you DON'T want to suspend when they don't have focus.

WhyBe said:
well those were just random examples to illustrate the type of apps that you DON'T want to suspend when they don't have focus.
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how important is downloading the file in the whole scheme of things?
Not very much. It might benefit to stop that process and use the available power to work what you can actually see.

I think its pointless to rationalize away the need to multitask. Hopefully, MS has worked out a reasonable compromise in WP7 until it's feasible to have true multitasking AND seamless performance in a mobile form factor.
I use a call manager (MagiCall) which runs in the background. I know they don't have this type of app for non-jailbroken iPhones because it doesn't multitask.
My typical multitasking is CoPilot, MagiCall and MS Voice Command reading my text messages. This is not an unrealistic expectation. I'm hoping WP7 will have some sort of scheme to allow the same functionality.

why would you need MSVC reading text messages when the Copilot is giving out instructions?doesn't make sense.

Here is what makes sense:
Only 1 voice/sound application can be actively running at any given time. Cannot have the games music, music player, MSVC, Copilot all talking/playing at the same time.
Can have only 1 graphic application running at 1 time. I.e. Panel refresh possible only for the foregorund application.
Multiple task possible for data-fetch/push application.
Anything more is unreasonable.

chiks19018 said:
why would you need MSVC reading text messages when the Copilot is giving out instructions?doesn't make sense.
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Seems kind of obvious to me...IDK. If I am driving, it is very convenient for everything to be audible as opposed to visual. So voiced text messages are better when driving as well as voiced navigation instructions. What would be kick ass is if I could get some speech-to-text to reply to my messages vocally.
Call/SMS firewalling is enough reason for me to desire multitasking in a phone. Perhaps these could be implemented using some sort of interupt system in WP7.

I must be nuts even reading such needs & requirements

you think i'll be able to log onto an IM client and then surf the net and await for messages? or do i have to turn on some type of forward to text feature? that's probably my biggest concern. everything elsle, i could probably live w/ teh "suspend."
though if i was downloading a song or movie or smething, i'd hate to have to wait for it to finish before i can do something else...

chiks19018 said:
how important is downloading the file in the whole scheme of things?
Not very much. It might benefit to stop that process and use the available power to work what you can actually see.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Why would it be a benefit to stop a file downloading in the background?
If you're downloading a large file, you don't want to sit staring at your phone's screen waiting until it finishes downloading before you can do anything else.
If you're so primitive that you can't find something for your phone to do while you're doing something else on it, I don't know why you bother having a smartphone.

Well, have you ever downloaded a large file to your phone?
Probably ...
But me? No, never ...
Why?
Because if I am at home, I will use my desktop PC to download which so much faster than my mobile phone. Think, the download speed is not only related to the internet connection.
Then I will pull my SDHC card, copy the file from the desktop.
Super fast, painless.
You can argue "What if you are not at home?"
I will not download that large file ... what kind of large file I must download while on the go to put in my mobile phone? Movie? How long before the battery runs out? Better to do something else
elyl said:
Why would it be a benefit to stop a file downloading in the background?
If you're downloading a large file, you don't want to sit staring at your phone's screen waiting until it finishes downloading before you can do anything else.
If you're so primitive that you can't find something for your phone to do while you're doing something else on it, I don't know why you bother having a smartphone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

elyl said:
Why would it be a benefit to stop a file downloading in the background?
If you're downloading a large file, you don't want to sit staring at your phone's screen waiting until it finishes downloading before you can do anything else.
If you're so primitive that you can't find something for your phone to do while you're doing something else on it, I don't know why you bother having a smartphone.
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Click to collapse
Sorry. I got that wrong. File downloads/datapush/fetch can and should continue in the background. nothing wrong with that. Just never give those processes top priority is what I really meant. Push comes to shove, those processes should be suspended for the benefit of the process on the screen.

WP7s support multitasking

as my assumption ,OS freeze the application but still allow application to update the hub
http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/17/windows-phone-7-series-multitasking-the-real-deal/
We've definitely learned a ton about Windows Phone 7 Series here at MIX, but getting the full picture on multitasking has been difficult, since the OS isn't ready, no one has final hardware, and the emulator seems to behave differently than actual devices and Microsoft's descriptions. So let's set the record straight on multitasking: it's not going to happen, at least not in the traditional way. Not only have we directly confirmed this with Microsoft executives several times, but the developer sessions here are totally clear on the matter -- you don't tell 1000+ devs that they should expect their apps to be killed whenever the user switches away from them if you don't mean it. Now, that's not to say that the OS can't do multitasking: first-party apps like the Zune player and IE can run in the background, and third-party apps are actually left running in a suspended state (Microsoft calls it "dehydrated") as long as the system doesn't need any additional resources. If the user cycles back to an app, it's resumed ("rehydrated") and life continues merrily along, but if the user opens other apps and the system needs additional resources, the app is killed without any indication or remorse.
If that sounds familiar, it's because it's basically a single-tasking riff on Android and Windows Mobile 6, both of which also purport to intelligently manage multiple running applications like this, and both of which usually find themselves greatly improved with manual task managers. We'll have to see if Windows Phone 7 Series can do a better job once it ships -- we have a feeling it will -- and later down the line we'll see if Microsoft decides to extend multitasking to third-party apps. But for now, just know that you're not going to be running Pandora in the background while you do other tasks on a 7 Series device -- it is a question we have specifically asked, and the answer, unfortunately, is no.

so it doesn't support multitasking... at least not in a tradition sense.
but i guess this isn't too bad.. i mean, as long as i can start writing an email and then go online and then come right back to my cursor... or play a game, hit pause, send a text, and then come right back to pause screen.
hopefully i can connect to a site, switch to text... while i'm writing a text, wait for the webpage to load, and come back.
anyway, i'm pretty sure if MS can't compete w/ the ipod, MS can't compete w/ the iphone.

They have actually did a demo on loading websites in the background while doing other stuff so that will be possible.

why is it so hard to update my Yomomedia feeds while sending a text message?
It's plain dumb. RAM is made for a reason.

Now, that's not to say that the OS can't do multitasking: first-party apps like the Zune player and IE can run in the background...
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Click to collapse
Thats nice for the Zune-Player and the IE, but what if I want to use a different player or browser?
rorytmeadows said:
why is it so hard to update my Yomomedia feeds while sending a text message?
It's plain dumb. RAM is made for a reason.
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Click to collapse
WORD! Its really funny thoug how all those people here defending the decision not to include MT by asking what application really needs it. My opinion, every app that loads longer than 1 second, because that is how fast I activate a minimized application right now!
And on a sidenote, notebooks had limited amounts of ram and processing power combined with terrible running times for decades, and no fool ever came up with the idea of disabling MT to solve those problems...

Both the stock iPhone and WPS7 supports multitasking only for their own applications, so you will be able to play music in the background, browse the net with either the stock browser or third party browser. In the case of stock iPhone, a third party application called Nike can also run in the background but that's a rare exception Apple has made.
To be able to run third party applications in the background, the jailbreaking community gives us tweaks such as Backgrounder, Kirikae, Circuituous, Multiflow.
I think something similar might happen to WPS7. Some technical gurus either from the XDA community or other places might do something similar and jailbreak and introduce background processing capability for third party applications.

rorytmeadows said:
why is it so hard to update my Yomomedia feeds while sending a text message?
It's plain dumb. RAM is made for a reason.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Why?
OS still allows application keep running,OS just stops the UI rendering ,stops the playing music

eaglesteve said:
Both the stock iPhone and WPS7 supports multitasking only for their own applications, so you will be able to play music in the background, browse the net with either the stock browser or third party browser. In the case of stock iPhone, a third party application called Nike can also run in the background but that's a rare exception Apple has made.
To be able to run third party applications in the background, the jailbreaking community gives us tweaks such as Backgrounder, Kirikae, Circuituous, Multiflow.
I think something similar might happen to WPS7. Some technical gurus either from the XDA community or other places might do something similar and jailbreak and introduce background processing capability for third party applications.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It is patently absurd that Microsoft, of all companies, would enforce such a limitation. What about applications that you want to respond to the Accelerometer? Light sensor? Any other system events built into the OS/tool-kit? They have written all sorts of cool stuff like the Reactive Extensions (which isn't just for mobile) - how is this supposed to work if it doesn't support multitasking? How is my app supposed to respond to environmental events if it isn't freaking running?!

bjhill2112 said:
How is my app supposed to respond to environmental events if it isn't freaking running?!
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Well, to be fair, MS has a way for it in WM, it's called persistent notifications, which works in many (not all) cases. It doesn't seem to be included in WP7 though, I don't see any traces of SNAPI.

vangrieg said:
Well, to be fair, MS has a way for it in WM, it's called persistent notifications, which works in many (not all) cases. It doesn't seem to be included in WP7 though, I don't see any traces of SNAPI.
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Click to collapse
I've been poking around in the tool kit and I can't find anything either.

MS says new multi-task in wm 7 is more like as iphone's
some apps will suspenses, then system will shut them automatically to clean up system resources

bestfan said:
MS says new multi-task in wm 7 is more like as iphone's
some apps will suspenses, then system will shut them automatically to clean up system resources
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Click to collapse
No ,it is different, on wp7s, while apps suspense to background ,apps still allow update the hubs and tiles and multi apps can be suspended to background

No 3rd party live tiles :(

So, unfortunately, it looks as if live tiles for 3rd party apps are too difficult and expensive
http://www.theunwired.net/?item=tho...ons-and-live-tiles-anywhere-in-the-cloud&5669
It's a pity, this was the one of the things that have made me consider a WP7 - I guess I'll just have to go to Android...

That isn't good for either the customer or 3rd party developers.
Hopefully M$ will change how the live tiles work as otherwise they will loose a big selling feature.

I'm not repeating myself... so look here http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=8768892&postcount=31

I think the statement in quoted from iridium21 link is not exactly correct. There is scheduled notifications type, that can update Live Tiles from local resources without the requirement of web service. It is a matter of dev implementation, not a WP7 flaw.
Edit: After some investigation I've discovered that actually Microsoft does not allow using local resource for changing the Tile through a tile schedule. So it’s true: no live tiles without web service.

To confirm , even official apps don't have live tiles. http://pocketnow.com/windows-phone/...&utm_campaign=Feed:+pocketnow+(pocketnow.com)

Without the live tiles, the whole point of WM7 is lost, in my opinion.
I was considering a Dell Venue Pro, but I think it's going to be a HTC Desire HD now...

I believe that this will come in a future update.
Hopefully I'm right.

I don't get it. Push notifications require server infrastructure. It was known from the moment Apple introduced them. The server has to know where to push what. This is also not news. It doesn't need to know any more details about you than needed to notify Microsoft servers to push it to your device, which is nothing personal, just your PN channel ID (token, or whatever it's called). If you want to get personalized data about, say, weather, you do have to store your preferences on the server. This is not a "security issue" in any way. Most importantly, this is not news. Why everybody is so upset about it now is beyond me.

iridium21 said:
So, unfortunately, it looks as if live tiles for 3rd party apps are too difficult and expensive
http://www.theunwired.net/?item=tho...ons-and-live-tiles-anywhere-in-the-cloud&5669
It's a pity, this was the one of the things that have made me consider a WP7 - I guess I'll just have to go to Android...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's too funny when a member previously posted it here http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=815463 he was called a troll, and android fan boy

iridium21 said:
So, unfortunately, it looks as if live tiles for 3rd party apps are too difficult and expensive
http://www.theunwired.net/?item=tho...ons-and-live-tiles-anywhere-in-the-cloud&5669
It's a pity, this was the one of the things that have made me consider a WP7 - I guess I'll just have to go to Android...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
they are not difficult, but need server infrastructure. But just step back and think about it. The services from which you need notifications are cloud based services. They already have the foundations for infrastructure. Now they need to add support for push notifications. They will do it. but will take time. it will be difficult for simple stand alone apps.. but which simple stand alone app you think needs notifications?
Android is already on its way to become an OS that needs regular resets to kill services that pile up in the background. (Remember Windows Mobile) Android does not kill an app until its RAM is full. All new phones have 512 MB RAM. it takes quite a few programs to reach a point when Android starts killing services. Till then, it takes a huge toll on battery.

arkavat said:
Android is already on its way to become an OS that needs regular resets to kill services that pile up in the background. (Remember Windows Mobile) Android does not kill an app until its RAM is full. All new phones have 512 MB RAM. it takes quite a few programs to reach a point when Android starts killing services. Till then, it takes a huge toll on battery.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No truth to any of that. But lets stay on topic though.

Push notifications are a better way for interacting with web services in terms of preserving battery than having a bunch of services that continuously poll servers in background. I think it's hard to argue otherwise. However, push notifications aren't a substitute for multitasking in general, or even local notifications. They are a substitute for one specific use case - alerting users when certain events happen outside the phone.
My question remains, however - why is everybody anxious about it now? What exactly happened between MIX, when all of this became public knowledge, and now?

arkavat said:
they are not difficult, but need server infrastructure. But just step back and think about it. The services from which you need notifications are cloud based services. They already have the foundations for infrastructure. Now they need to add support for push notifications. They will do it. but will take time. it will be difficult for simple stand alone apps.. but which simple stand alone app you think needs notifications?
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Click to collapse
I guess the whole point is that standalone apps don't need push notifications but have to rely on them simply to update homescreen tiles, which is an obvious overkill. I have a couple of apps that use badge notifications on the iPhone currently. One is a Google RSS reader, another is the Read It Later app. They both connect to web services, it's very useful that they show information about unread items on the home screen, but none of them really needs their own server infrastructure. Well, they could use it, but don't have to.

I hear bad things about the battery life of WP7 phones... apparently the lack of multitaskung doesn't help at all... Android still provides better battery life, despite that lots of apps can poll and update widgets in the background.
Don't trust the marketing blabla. WP7 will only be a static grid of icons, just like iOS. The only OS that REALLY is "live" is Android.

crow26 said:
WP7 will only be a static grid of icons, just like iOS.
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That's simply wrong. WP7 still supports live tiles updatable through push notification, iOS - not. Still, Android would remain most feature rich platform with all advantages and disadvantages that comes with that.

The phone can also poll for updates on a scheduled basis (every hour, day, week, or month). They don't have to be push. This will work well for things like weather updates where you don't need instaneous info anyways.

martoto said:
That's simply wrong. WP7 still supports live tiles updatable through push notification, iOS - not. Still, Android would remain most feature rich platform with all advantages and disadvantages that comes with that.
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I would ignore him. Mods already closed his other thread bashing WP7 and talking about how amazing Android is. It's clear he has an agenda and nothing of actual importance to say.

Live tile from weatherbug
http://www.wpcentral.com/weatherbug...feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+wmexperts+(wpcentral)
Don't know if its Live like MS tiles though.
Push notifications equals bubbles like the iPhone.

iridium21 said:
So, unfortunately, it looks as if live tiles for 3rd party apps are too difficult and expensive
http://www.theunwired.net/?item=tho...ons-and-live-tiles-anywhere-in-the-cloud&5669
It's a pity, this was the one of the things that have made me consider a WP7 - I guess I'll just have to go to Android...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think Microsoft need to make a web service available (perhaps through their Bing domain) that will allow developers to send their notifications to it, and then it could push those notifications onto the phone. Most developers will not have the budget to run their own webservices for notifications.

martoto said:
That's simply wrong. WP7 still supports live tiles updatable through push notification, iOS - not. Still, Android would remain most feature rich platform with all advantages and disadvantages that comes with that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
READ the first post cause you didn't understand anything.

[LIST] Apps with LIVE Tiles

Thought we could start a thread for apps which slowly get the Live tile functionality added to them. I'll keep this first post updated. If anyone knows of any others, please post below and I'll update accordingly.
*Weatherbug -LIVE Weather tile for the home screen. First 3rd party app with a live tile.
*Who's Near Me
*Train Travel
*Commuter

Don't know any yet but will post if I come across any

Weather bug
http://pocketnow.com/windows-phone/weatherbug-for-wp7-includes-first-third-party-live-tile-video

The one I'm developing

AceofSpades25 said:
Weather bug
http://pocketnow.com/windows-phone/weatherbug-for-wp7-includes-first-third-party-live-tile-video
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The app that you set an update interval I would not be calling LIVE

lqaddict said:
The app that you set an update interval I would not be calling LIVE
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Click to collapse
Well it employs live tile technology. I guess they ask you for an interval so that their webserver doesn't have to be constantly polling each subscribers local weather. Makes sense if you ask me

AceofSpades25 said:
Well it employs live tile technology. I guess they ask you for an interval so that their webserver doesn't have to be constantly polling each subscribers local weather. Makes sense if you ask me
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Click to collapse
Exactly. Weather is always updated on a schedule. It doesn't make sense to poll for it every second. They also send you weather alerts for severe weather and the like.

RustyGrom said:
Exactly. Weather is always updated on a schedule. It doesn't make sense to poll for it every second. They also send you weather alerts for severe weather and the like.
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Click to collapse
So, how is it different from the app that polls the twitter, for instance, every 20 mins for updates?
Where is the glorified "push" mechanism that M$ cleverly marked as LIVE Tiles???
Is that the latest Redmond innovation? Android has had widgets a long time, so what is the advantage of LIVE Tiles?

lqaddict said:
So, how is it different from the app that polls the twitter, for instance, every 20 mins for updates?
Where is the glorified "push" mechanism that M$ cleverly marked as LIVE Tiles???
Is that the latest Redmond innovation? Android has had widgets a long time, so what is the advantage of LIVE Tiles?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Answer is here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=8832880&postcount=57
In short, there is no advantage over Android widgets.
(in fact, live tiles have ONLY disadvantages)

lqaddict said:
So, how is it different from the app that polls the twitter, for instance, every 20 mins for updates?
Where is the glorified "push" mechanism that M$ cleverly marked as LIVE Tiles???
Is that the latest Redmond innovation? Android has had widgets a long time, so what is the advantage of LIVE Tiles?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ummm they can. There's two ways that live tiles can operate... on a schedule (hourly, daily, weekly, etc) or from a push basis. Live tiles can be pushed from the server pretty much as often as they want. But it just doesn't make sense to do that for many applications. So for a weather app, how do you expect weatherbug to do it? Push an update every minute? Weather, by it's very nature, is a polled data source.
Even android widgets are still polling a data source. Unless they're maintaining a socket to some other server (which would obliterate your battery) they're just polling a source. It's just a matter of the interval.
Live tiles have the benefit that the app doesn't have to poll for certain sources. For example, Facebook could (and probably will but it's not even out yet in the US) send a notification to the phone only if/when the user get's a message or other notification. An Android widget would have to poll facebook on a schedule to find out if there's been an update.

RustyGrom said:
Ummm they can. There's two ways that live tiles can operate... on a schedule (hourly, daily, weekly, etc) or from a push basis. Live tiles can be pushed from the server pretty much as often as they want. But it just doesn't make sense to do that for many applications. So for a weather app, how do you expect weatherbug to do it? Push an update every minute? Weather, by it's very nature, is a polled data source.
Even android widgets are still polling a data source. Unless they're maintaining a socket to some other server (which would obliterate your battery) they're just polling a source. It's just a matter of the interval.
Live tiles have the benefit that the app doesn't have to poll for certain sources. For example, Facebook could (and probably will but it's not even out yet in the US) send a notification to the phone only if/when the user get's a message or other notification. An Android widget would have to poll facebook on a schedule to find out if there's been an update.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I understand the concept of the weather app - it is a poll application. I guess I got confused on what can be called a LIVE Tile app and what is not. If there is no difference b/w designing an app to use either mechanism (it would seem the poll application will be more cost effective to design, since you don't have to deploy a separate service at the develop end to push the notifications) I don't see why there is such a hype over which apps can be LIVE and which cannot.
In the case as illustrated by weatehrbug all information update apps can be called LIVE Tile apps, even a battery status app.

Actually Android does offer a push notification service for such scenarios, so WP7 has no advantage at all.
In fact, WP7 has a huge disadvantage, because the push service in WP7 always drains your battery even when you don't want it. There aren't many scenarios where you need push instead of polling.
And even if you use push instead of polling (e.g. for an IM app), there are times when you'll want to terminate the connections, in order to save battery life (e.g. if you enter an area with bad reception). You can easily do so in Android, but you can't do that in WP7.
That's why most WP7 users will see drastically shorter battery life than most Android users. Again, a good idea from Microsoft with a very bad implementation.
Live tiles have no advantages. Instead, the limitations in WP7 do more harm than good.

lqaddict said:
I understand the concept of the weather app - it is a poll application. I guess I got confused on what can be called a LIVE Tile app and what is not. If there is no difference b/w designing an app to use either mechanism (it would seem the poll application will be more cost effective to design, since you don't have to deploy a separate service at the develop end to push the notifications) I don't see why there is such a hype over which apps can be LIVE and which cannot.
In the case as illustrated by weatehrbug all information update apps can be called LIVE Tile apps, even a battery status app.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The "LIVE" apps are Xbox Live enabled games. It has nothing to do with live tiles. In fact, I'd be surprised to see a Xbox Live game that did utilize live tiles.
crow26 said:
Actually Android does offer a push notification service for such scenarios, so WP7 has no advantage at all.
In fact, WP7 has a huge disadvantage, because the push service in WP7 always drains your battery even when you don't want it. There aren't many scenarios where you need push instead of polling.
And even if you use push instead of polling (e.g. for an IM app), there are times when you'll want to terminate the connections, in order to save battery life (e.g. if you enter an area with bad reception). You can easily do so in Android, but you can't do that in WP7.
That's why most WP7 users will see drastically shorter battery life than most Android users. Again, a good idea from Microsoft with a very bad implementation.
Live tiles have no advantages. Instead, the limitations in WP7 do more harm than good.
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Click to collapse
SO wait... in one sentence you say that Microsoft is dumb because they use a push notification service that eats battery right after you say that Android also has the same thing? LOL. Get a life. Go back to the Android forums. If you have no interest in WP7, leave. Noone needs your uninformed, fanboy bashing.

RustyGrom said:
The "LIVE" apps are Xbox Live enabled games. It has nothing to do with live tiles. In fact, I'd be surprised to see a Xbox Live game that did utilize live tiles.
SO wait... in one sentence you say that Microsoft is dumb because they use a push notification service that eats battery right after you say that Android also has the same thing? LOL. Get a life. Go back to the Android forums. If you have no interest in WP7, leave. Noone needs your uninformed, fanboy bashing.
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Click to collapse
Obviously you are not a fanboy
Ok you win LIVE Tile Apps are no better than the a collection of static images that change every so often or not depending on the weather in Redmond

lqaddict said:
Obviously you are not a fanboy
Ok you win LIVE Tile Apps are no better than the a collection of static images that change every so often or not depending on the weather in Redmond
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Click to collapse
You do realize that only the first bit was in response to you and the other part of that post was in response to the other guy, right?

How about reading my post before you answer? It isn't THAT hard, is it?!
I said Android has the better implementation, because the push service doesn't have to be turned on when it's not needed.
It's all about options. Options are the reason why Android only has advantages here. Options mean you can always choose the implementation with the best results and least impact on battery life.
That's why Android can save battery life, WP7 can't.
Next time, before you call someone else "uninformed", READ. Noone needs your uninformed fanboy posts when you're not able to read. Get a life, go to school and learn to read.
And don't call anyone a fanboy as long as you have that huge fanboy image in your signature! Not everyone who has better understanding of technology than you is a fanboy.
You don't even have to scroll up, cause I quote myself for you:
crow26 said:
Actually Android does offer a push notification service for such scenarios, so WP7 has no advantage at all.
In fact, WP7 has a huge disadvantage, because the push service in WP7 always drains your battery even when you don't want it. There aren't many scenarios where you need push instead of polling.
And even if you use push instead of polling (e.g. for an IM app), there are times when you'll want to terminate the connections, in order to save battery life (e.g. if you enter an area with bad reception). You can easily do so in Android, but you can't do that in WP7.
That's why most WP7 users will see drastically shorter battery life than most Android users. Again, a good idea from Microsoft with a very bad implementation.
Live tiles have no advantages. Instead, the limitations in WP7 do more harm than good.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

What is the point of a push service if it's not enabled? This is just yet another example of android fragmentation.

lqaddict said:
I understand the concept of the weather app - it is a poll application. I guess I got confused on what can be called a LIVE Tile app and what is not. If there is no difference b/w designing an app to use either mechanism (it would seem the poll application will be more cost effective to design, since you don't have to deploy a separate service at the develop end to push the notifications) I don't see why there is such a hype over which apps can be LIVE and which cannot.
In the case as illustrated by weatehrbug all information update apps can be called LIVE Tile apps, even a battery status app.
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Push notifications are slightly more efficient for the reasons given: http://www.koushikdutta.com/2009/03/push-notification-to-mobile-devices-via.html
http://jkontherun.com/2009/07/06/are-push-notifications-better-than-background-apps/
Instead of apps having to run in the background in order to poll servers for updates, push allows the OS to manage retrieving updates for all apps through a single pipeline.
Unfortunately it means your phone has to maintain a constant TCP\IP connection to a Microsoft push server.
I personally think the best option would be to allow developers to register code snippets with the OS that run on regular intervals. This way, the entire app doesn't have to stay running. For only a few apps, this would probably be the most efficient solution.
For more than 5 apps, push would probably work better

If fragmentation saves bettery life and creates a better user experience, there's nothing wrong with it.
And by the way, this is called choice, not fragmentation.

AceofSpades25 said:
I personally think the best option would be to allow developers to register code snippets with the OS that run on regular intervals.
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Click to collapse
Exactly - and coincidentally, that's exactly what Android does.
It provides a task scheduler in addition to push and full multitasking - that's choice (some call it "fragmentation").
AceofSpades25 said:
This way, the entire app doesn't have to stay running. For only a few apps, this would probably be the most efficient solution.
For more than 5 apps, push would probably work better
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Most people don't have many apps that require a persistent connection. IM apps are an example where it makes sense. But then again, you want to be able to turn them off if you're in an area with bad reception or running low on battery.
It makes sense to be able to choose the method that works best and has the least impact on battery life. Apparently WP7 needs more "fragmentation".
@Rusty
You know, just because someone has better understanding of technology and knows which product is better, it doesn't mean he's a fanboy. It just means he's got a clue.

Confusing comment from iPhone user on available data on home screen

My friend is an avid iPhone user and doesn't even bother looking at other devices really, but took a look at my omnia 7 and stated that while the interface looks far better, the home screen contains LESS information than the static icons with numbers next to them...
How do other users feel, do the vast amount of icons with numbered notifications, i.e. 20 icons on page 1, feel like more useful data than having about 6 tiles which can potentially hold more data overall and have the data be dynamic, more than just that there is a change in the app.
So simply, large amounts of static data or smaller amounts of dynamic data?

Michael_W_L said:
My friend is an avid iPhone user and doesn't even bother looking at other devices really, but took a look at my omnia 7 and stated that while the interface looks far better, the home screen contains LESS information than the static icons with numbers next to them...
How do other users feel, do the vast amount of icons with numbered notifications, i.e. 20 icons on page 1, feel like more useful data than having about 6 tiles which can potentially hold more data overall and have the data be dynamic, more than just that there is a change in the app.
So simply, large amounts of static data or smaller amounts of dynamic data?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
you open up a can of worms
it's personal taste I believe. I personally prefer the tile UI. I have relatives who currently own an iPhone and are very impressed with the WP7. The OS is only a year old and can only grow in user experience and performance. iOS seems to be an outdated OS IMHO. Very often it's what you got used to that works best for you and it's difficult to change to something new. iOS dominated the smartphone market for a long time. Give it 2-3 years and WP7 or WP8 will look outdated....
A poll in a Forum topic dedicated to WP7 that asks which UI is preferred will not provide any insight because most of us here decided to use WP7 for the very reason.

derausgewanderte said:
you open up a can of worms
it's personal taste I believe. I personally prefer the tile UI. I have relatives who currently own an iPhone and are very impressed with the WP7. The OS is only a year old and can only grow in user experience and performance. iOS seems to be an outdated OS IMHO. Very often it's what you got used to that works best for you and it's difficult to change to something new. iOS dominated the smartphone market for a long time. Give it 2-3 years and WP7 or WP8 will look outdated....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I like both, though, if the double sided tiles are used properly, tiles will win in my eyes. Having only a number as a notification got bland quickly to me, I liked that I knew exactly what had updates, but to do anything, I had to open an app. Tiles allow for you to see something, see if you want to reply now, or just leave it.
Smaller tiles woildn't work though, tiles will always have less items on the main display than icons.
I guess that it depends on how quickly you want to access your apps! I mean there are only about 5 notifications I can think of that are important tbh. App updates(that can rather be on the lower segment, news possibly weather possibly, messages, IM app email phone.
I was attracted to wp7 because of c#, and the panoramic UI, the tiles were a non-sequitor. At least it was fast, unlike the home screen of the 5800 I usd, which gives me nightmares still!

Michael_W_L said:
My friend is an avid iPhone user and doesn't even bother looking at other devices really, but took a look at my omnia 7 and stated that while the interface looks far better, the home screen contains LESS information than the static icons with numbers next to them...
How do other users feel, do the vast amount of icons with numbered notifications, i.e. 20 icons on page 1, feel like more useful data than having about 6 tiles which can potentially hold more data overall and have the data be dynamic, more than just that there is a change in the app.
So simply, large amounts of static data or smaller amounts of dynamic data?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The iPhone home screen isn't static icons. When you get notifications in, there's a ticker by the application icon similar to the stars that appear by icons on a Blackberry. Android skins like TouchWiz 4.0 and Sense 3.0/3.5 use similar tickers.
It really depends on how you look at it, TBQH.
Tiles are big so you cannot see as many application icons/tiles on one screen in WP7 as you can icon on an iPhones, so if they have all their most-used applications on their home pane, they may very well see more information on their home screen than you do.
*Most* WP7 "Live Tiles" are nothing more than a number that appears on the icon.
iOS5 will have a completely revamped Notification System, though, so things get interesting when you look forward. Heres to hoping Microsoft gives us a useful notification system cause Tile Counters/Live Tiles and Toasts aren't nearly enough. Apple seems to have found that out, so hopefully Microsoft will - eventually.
Not voting in the poll cause the options are ignorant.

N8ter said:
The iPhone home screen isn't static icons. When you get notifications in, there's a ticker by the application icon similar to the stars that appear by icons on a Blackberry. Android skins like TouchWiz 4.0 and Sense 3.0/3.5 use similar tickers.
It really depends on how you look at it, TBQH.
Tiles are big so you cannot see as many application icons/tiles on one screen in WP7 as you can icon on an iPhones, so if they have all their most-used applications on their home pane, they may very well see more information on their home screen than you do.
*Most* WP7 "Live Tiles" are nothing more than a number that appears on the icon.
iOS5 will have a completely revamped Notification System, though, so things get interesting when you look forward. Heres to hoping Microsoft gives us a useful notification system cause Tile Counters/Live Tiles and Toasts aren't nearly enough. Apple seems to have found that out, so hopefully Microsoft will - eventually.
Not voting in the poll cause the options are ignorant.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I see icons with tickers as static data. I see tiles with just numbers in the same way. Sadly alot of tiles are just oversized icons with tickers. Double sided tiles should make for more active tiles, but I completely agree that most are just basically icons with tickers.
The poll isn't wp7 vs iPhone, the poll is static data vs dynamic. The static data type gives consistent data which can be viewed in only one way. This is a nice general type, combine that with the ios notification system, or bada's current one and you have glanceble data with the possibility of seeign it all quickly.
Dynamic data on the otherhand would be like pinning a person and seeing their latest updates OR their latest pictures. Multiple possible data types which contain more information immediately. But it uses far more real estate as well.

Next version of apple's os will steal android's notification system so its a moot point imo. Tiles are cute, but as the cornerstone of the wp7 notification system its pretty terrible. I'm still in awe that they did nothing to improve notifications in mangos. I just cannot believe it.
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App

Its personal taste (as someone else said). For me the best notifiactions system came with WebOS, I also like the android system and the WP7 system. I don't like the current ios notifications (on my ipad) but I guess when ios 5 comes (with android style notifications) that will be OK too. For me, the main plus point of WP7 over the other UI's is the simple uncluttered view. I am forever "losing my place" on my ipad screens, it was the same with my Android Desire too.

How can you lose your place when you have dots that tell you what pane you're on?

N8ter said:
How can you lose your place when you have dots that tell you what pane you're on?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Could never remember which pane I had pinned an app on, my eyesight is not brilliant and the small app icons (even on the ipad) are difficult for me to pick out sometimes - like I said though, it is a personal thing.

One thing remind me.
Windows Phone 7 + Apple's Store apps = WIN.
Apps is one of the main reason people choose iPhone.

Strike_Eagle said:
Apps is one of the main reason people choose iPhone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And, unfortunately, one thing that is starting to come out more and more in customer surveys is that most people who own iPhones are reluctant to switch to another platform because of their investment in their apps. Not only have they paid for them, they spent the time to learn how to use them (and let's face it, most apps behave differently on WP7 than they do on iOS, because of the differences in the OS itself).

Yep and developers give ios versions preferential treatment on top of that. Faster feature updates, bug fixes, etc.
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App
EDIT: And this is a big issue since developers do not allow you to transfer licenses you've already bought on one platform to another. With some apps costing $9.99 or more in some cases (really once you get to $4.99 people start feeling locked in if they have to repurchase), this becomes an issue quite quickly.
Bought 10 apps over the span of 2 years on another platform that you use a lot. When you move to another one, you have to repurchase them immediately. You don't get 2 more years to do it, unless you want to cripple your usage patterns for inordinate amounts of time. That can be anywhere from 10 to 100 bucks, more in some cases, right off the bat.

One thing that isn't true with mango anymore, and I love it, is the one to one mapping from app to tile/icon.
Now I only map the content that I care about from apps to my main screen. Even multiple things from one App. Instead of having just huge app Icons.
So for the first time, Tiles start to be really different to being just big App-Icons. They start to be Content-Tiles. It's a huge difference, and something the iPhone right now does not provide.

RoboDad said:
And, unfortunately, one thing that is starting to come out more and more in customer surveys is that most people who own iPhones are reluctant to switch to another platform because of their investment in their apps. Not only have they paid for them, they spent the time to learn how to use them (and let's face it, most apps behave differently on WP7 than they do on iOS, because of the differences in the OS itself).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, i still remember the version of Angry Bird on Android and iOS are free. and we have to pay for it.

N8ter said:
Bought 10 apps over the span of 2 years on another platform that you use a lot. When you move to another one, you have to repurchase them immediately. You don't get 2 more years to do it, unless you want to cripple your usage patterns for inordinate amounts of time. That can be anywhere from 10 to 100 bucks, more in some cases, right off the bat.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's unbelievable how cheap people can get to see this as a problem.

vangrieg said:
It's unbelievable how cheap people can get to see this as a problem.
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Click to collapse
Most people (as in, the overwhelmingly vast majority) don't have unlimited disposable income. They get their phones on contract, so they can get heavily subsidized prices. Further, most people aren't thrilled at the prospect of paying a second fee for their apps, just to move from one phone platform to another. Purchasing a second license to add a second device would be a different matter, but that is not what we are discussing here. It would be paying an additional fee simply to maintain what they already have. When faced with that choice, most people will stay where they are. It is basic human nature.

So if purchased apps keep someone glued to a platform Microsoft must be betting on getting the lion's share of users coming from a 'non' smartphone; like me.

Unlimited income? We're talking $10-100 here, and since you mention subsidized handsets, "first world" countries. I understand that people don't like paying (twice) but this isn't money we're talking about, it's pocket change.
What a world.

That's the thing, iOS notification on the home screen isn't changing. It will still be static little bubbles. Live tiles could change how they work, what they do and show, they already are animated and double sided and get push notification. And I have mango and some changes on how they work is great to see.
I have my tiles set up like this: phone and alarm tiles on top, messaging and people hub, my personal linked email accounts and then my work, xbox hub with 7 more tiles of the games I am playing, Zune and resco radio, calendar, ie9 and maps, arkwords, weather apps with live tile, and so on. 40 tiles in total, and all of the info I need on one screen that scrolls smoothly. I love it ^_^

All I have to say is that I have purchased Fruit Ninja on ios,iPad ios,windows phone,android,android tablet tegra version. People need to stop being cheap. Plus it's not like if you don't use it, you lose it lol