Develop Bugs

WP7s support multitasking

as my assumption ,OS freeze the application but still allow application to update the hub
http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/17/windows-phone-7-series-multitasking-the-real-deal/
We've definitely learned a ton about Windows Phone 7 Series here at MIX, but getting the full picture on multitasking has been difficult, since the OS isn't ready, no one has final hardware, and the emulator seems to behave differently than actual devices and Microsoft's descriptions. So let's set the record straight on multitasking: it's not going to happen, at least not in the traditional way. Not only have we directly confirmed this with Microsoft executives several times, but the developer sessions here are totally clear on the matter -- you don't tell 1000+ devs that they should expect their apps to be killed whenever the user switches away from them if you don't mean it. Now, that's not to say that the OS can't do multitasking: first-party apps like the Zune player and IE can run in the background, and third-party apps are actually left running in a suspended state (Microsoft calls it "dehydrated") as long as the system doesn't need any additional resources. If the user cycles back to an app, it's resumed ("rehydrated") and life continues merrily along, but if the user opens other apps and the system needs additional resources, the app is killed without any indication or remorse.
If that sounds familiar, it's because it's basically a single-tasking riff on Android and Windows Mobile 6, both of which also purport to intelligently manage multiple running applications like this, and both of which usually find themselves greatly improved with manual task managers. We'll have to see if Windows Phone 7 Series can do a better job once it ships -- we have a feeling it will -- and later down the line we'll see if Microsoft decides to extend multitasking to third-party apps. But for now, just know that you're not going to be running Pandora in the background while you do other tasks on a 7 Series device -- it is a question we have specifically asked, and the answer, unfortunately, is no.

so it doesn't support multitasking... at least not in a tradition sense.
but i guess this isn't too bad.. i mean, as long as i can start writing an email and then go online and then come right back to my cursor... or play a game, hit pause, send a text, and then come right back to pause screen.
hopefully i can connect to a site, switch to text... while i'm writing a text, wait for the webpage to load, and come back.
anyway, i'm pretty sure if MS can't compete w/ the ipod, MS can't compete w/ the iphone.

They have actually did a demo on loading websites in the background while doing other stuff so that will be possible.

why is it so hard to update my Yomomedia feeds while sending a text message?
It's plain dumb. RAM is made for a reason.

Now, that's not to say that the OS can't do multitasking: first-party apps like the Zune player and IE can run in the background...
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Thats nice for the Zune-Player and the IE, but what if I want to use a different player or browser?
rorytmeadows said:
why is it so hard to update my Yomomedia feeds while sending a text message?
It's plain dumb. RAM is made for a reason.
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WORD! Its really funny thoug how all those people here defending the decision not to include MT by asking what application really needs it. My opinion, every app that loads longer than 1 second, because that is how fast I activate a minimized application right now!
And on a sidenote, notebooks had limited amounts of ram and processing power combined with terrible running times for decades, and no fool ever came up with the idea of disabling MT to solve those problems...

Both the stock iPhone and WPS7 supports multitasking only for their own applications, so you will be able to play music in the background, browse the net with either the stock browser or third party browser. In the case of stock iPhone, a third party application called Nike can also run in the background but that's a rare exception Apple has made.
To be able to run third party applications in the background, the jailbreaking community gives us tweaks such as Backgrounder, Kirikae, Circuituous, Multiflow.
I think something similar might happen to WPS7. Some technical gurus either from the XDA community or other places might do something similar and jailbreak and introduce background processing capability for third party applications.

rorytmeadows said:
why is it so hard to update my Yomomedia feeds while sending a text message?
It's plain dumb. RAM is made for a reason.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Why?
OS still allows application keep running,OS just stops the UI rendering ,stops the playing music

eaglesteve said:
Both the stock iPhone and WPS7 supports multitasking only for their own applications, so you will be able to play music in the background, browse the net with either the stock browser or third party browser. In the case of stock iPhone, a third party application called Nike can also run in the background but that's a rare exception Apple has made.
To be able to run third party applications in the background, the jailbreaking community gives us tweaks such as Backgrounder, Kirikae, Circuituous, Multiflow.
I think something similar might happen to WPS7. Some technical gurus either from the XDA community or other places might do something similar and jailbreak and introduce background processing capability for third party applications.
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Click to collapse
It is patently absurd that Microsoft, of all companies, would enforce such a limitation. What about applications that you want to respond to the Accelerometer? Light sensor? Any other system events built into the OS/tool-kit? They have written all sorts of cool stuff like the Reactive Extensions (which isn't just for mobile) - how is this supposed to work if it doesn't support multitasking? How is my app supposed to respond to environmental events if it isn't freaking running?!

bjhill2112 said:
How is my app supposed to respond to environmental events if it isn't freaking running?!
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Well, to be fair, MS has a way for it in WM, it's called persistent notifications, which works in many (not all) cases. It doesn't seem to be included in WP7 though, I don't see any traces of SNAPI.

vangrieg said:
Well, to be fair, MS has a way for it in WM, it's called persistent notifications, which works in many (not all) cases. It doesn't seem to be included in WP7 though, I don't see any traces of SNAPI.
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I've been poking around in the tool kit and I can't find anything either.

MS says new multi-task in wm 7 is more like as iphone's
some apps will suspenses, then system will shut them automatically to clean up system resources

bestfan said:
MS says new multi-task in wm 7 is more like as iphone's
some apps will suspenses, then system will shut them automatically to clean up system resources
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No ,it is different, on wp7s, while apps suspense to background ,apps still allow update the hubs and tiles and multi apps can be suspended to background

[LIST] Apps with LIVE Tiles

Thought we could start a thread for apps which slowly get the Live tile functionality added to them. I'll keep this first post updated. If anyone knows of any others, please post below and I'll update accordingly.
*Weatherbug -LIVE Weather tile for the home screen. First 3rd party app with a live tile.
*Who's Near Me
*Train Travel
*Commuter

Don't know any yet but will post if I come across any

Weather bug
http://pocketnow.com/windows-phone/weatherbug-for-wp7-includes-first-third-party-live-tile-video

The one I'm developing

AceofSpades25 said:
Weather bug
http://pocketnow.com/windows-phone/weatherbug-for-wp7-includes-first-third-party-live-tile-video
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The app that you set an update interval I would not be calling LIVE

lqaddict said:
The app that you set an update interval I would not be calling LIVE
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Well it employs live tile technology. I guess they ask you for an interval so that their webserver doesn't have to be constantly polling each subscribers local weather. Makes sense if you ask me

AceofSpades25 said:
Well it employs live tile technology. I guess they ask you for an interval so that their webserver doesn't have to be constantly polling each subscribers local weather. Makes sense if you ask me
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Exactly. Weather is always updated on a schedule. It doesn't make sense to poll for it every second. They also send you weather alerts for severe weather and the like.

RustyGrom said:
Exactly. Weather is always updated on a schedule. It doesn't make sense to poll for it every second. They also send you weather alerts for severe weather and the like.
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So, how is it different from the app that polls the twitter, for instance, every 20 mins for updates?
Where is the glorified "push" mechanism that M$ cleverly marked as LIVE Tiles???
Is that the latest Redmond innovation? Android has had widgets a long time, so what is the advantage of LIVE Tiles?

lqaddict said:
So, how is it different from the app that polls the twitter, for instance, every 20 mins for updates?
Where is the glorified "push" mechanism that M$ cleverly marked as LIVE Tiles???
Is that the latest Redmond innovation? Android has had widgets a long time, so what is the advantage of LIVE Tiles?
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Click to collapse
Answer is here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=8832880&postcount=57
In short, there is no advantage over Android widgets.
(in fact, live tiles have ONLY disadvantages)

lqaddict said:
So, how is it different from the app that polls the twitter, for instance, every 20 mins for updates?
Where is the glorified "push" mechanism that M$ cleverly marked as LIVE Tiles???
Is that the latest Redmond innovation? Android has had widgets a long time, so what is the advantage of LIVE Tiles?
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Click to collapse
Ummm they can. There's two ways that live tiles can operate... on a schedule (hourly, daily, weekly, etc) or from a push basis. Live tiles can be pushed from the server pretty much as often as they want. But it just doesn't make sense to do that for many applications. So for a weather app, how do you expect weatherbug to do it? Push an update every minute? Weather, by it's very nature, is a polled data source.
Even android widgets are still polling a data source. Unless they're maintaining a socket to some other server (which would obliterate your battery) they're just polling a source. It's just a matter of the interval.
Live tiles have the benefit that the app doesn't have to poll for certain sources. For example, Facebook could (and probably will but it's not even out yet in the US) send a notification to the phone only if/when the user get's a message or other notification. An Android widget would have to poll facebook on a schedule to find out if there's been an update.

RustyGrom said:
Ummm they can. There's two ways that live tiles can operate... on a schedule (hourly, daily, weekly, etc) or from a push basis. Live tiles can be pushed from the server pretty much as often as they want. But it just doesn't make sense to do that for many applications. So for a weather app, how do you expect weatherbug to do it? Push an update every minute? Weather, by it's very nature, is a polled data source.
Even android widgets are still polling a data source. Unless they're maintaining a socket to some other server (which would obliterate your battery) they're just polling a source. It's just a matter of the interval.
Live tiles have the benefit that the app doesn't have to poll for certain sources. For example, Facebook could (and probably will but it's not even out yet in the US) send a notification to the phone only if/when the user get's a message or other notification. An Android widget would have to poll facebook on a schedule to find out if there's been an update.
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I understand the concept of the weather app - it is a poll application. I guess I got confused on what can be called a LIVE Tile app and what is not. If there is no difference b/w designing an app to use either mechanism (it would seem the poll application will be more cost effective to design, since you don't have to deploy a separate service at the develop end to push the notifications) I don't see why there is such a hype over which apps can be LIVE and which cannot.
In the case as illustrated by weatehrbug all information update apps can be called LIVE Tile apps, even a battery status app.

Actually Android does offer a push notification service for such scenarios, so WP7 has no advantage at all.
In fact, WP7 has a huge disadvantage, because the push service in WP7 always drains your battery even when you don't want it. There aren't many scenarios where you need push instead of polling.
And even if you use push instead of polling (e.g. for an IM app), there are times when you'll want to terminate the connections, in order to save battery life (e.g. if you enter an area with bad reception). You can easily do so in Android, but you can't do that in WP7.
That's why most WP7 users will see drastically shorter battery life than most Android users. Again, a good idea from Microsoft with a very bad implementation.
Live tiles have no advantages. Instead, the limitations in WP7 do more harm than good.

lqaddict said:
I understand the concept of the weather app - it is a poll application. I guess I got confused on what can be called a LIVE Tile app and what is not. If there is no difference b/w designing an app to use either mechanism (it would seem the poll application will be more cost effective to design, since you don't have to deploy a separate service at the develop end to push the notifications) I don't see why there is such a hype over which apps can be LIVE and which cannot.
In the case as illustrated by weatehrbug all information update apps can be called LIVE Tile apps, even a battery status app.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The "LIVE" apps are Xbox Live enabled games. It has nothing to do with live tiles. In fact, I'd be surprised to see a Xbox Live game that did utilize live tiles.
crow26 said:
Actually Android does offer a push notification service for such scenarios, so WP7 has no advantage at all.
In fact, WP7 has a huge disadvantage, because the push service in WP7 always drains your battery even when you don't want it. There aren't many scenarios where you need push instead of polling.
And even if you use push instead of polling (e.g. for an IM app), there are times when you'll want to terminate the connections, in order to save battery life (e.g. if you enter an area with bad reception). You can easily do so in Android, but you can't do that in WP7.
That's why most WP7 users will see drastically shorter battery life than most Android users. Again, a good idea from Microsoft with a very bad implementation.
Live tiles have no advantages. Instead, the limitations in WP7 do more harm than good.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
SO wait... in one sentence you say that Microsoft is dumb because they use a push notification service that eats battery right after you say that Android also has the same thing? LOL. Get a life. Go back to the Android forums. If you have no interest in WP7, leave. Noone needs your uninformed, fanboy bashing.

RustyGrom said:
The "LIVE" apps are Xbox Live enabled games. It has nothing to do with live tiles. In fact, I'd be surprised to see a Xbox Live game that did utilize live tiles.
SO wait... in one sentence you say that Microsoft is dumb because they use a push notification service that eats battery right after you say that Android also has the same thing? LOL. Get a life. Go back to the Android forums. If you have no interest in WP7, leave. Noone needs your uninformed, fanboy bashing.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Obviously you are not a fanboy
Ok you win LIVE Tile Apps are no better than the a collection of static images that change every so often or not depending on the weather in Redmond

lqaddict said:
Obviously you are not a fanboy
Ok you win LIVE Tile Apps are no better than the a collection of static images that change every so often or not depending on the weather in Redmond
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Click to collapse
You do realize that only the first bit was in response to you and the other part of that post was in response to the other guy, right?

How about reading my post before you answer? It isn't THAT hard, is it?!
I said Android has the better implementation, because the push service doesn't have to be turned on when it's not needed.
It's all about options. Options are the reason why Android only has advantages here. Options mean you can always choose the implementation with the best results and least impact on battery life.
That's why Android can save battery life, WP7 can't.
Next time, before you call someone else "uninformed", READ. Noone needs your uninformed fanboy posts when you're not able to read. Get a life, go to school and learn to read.
And don't call anyone a fanboy as long as you have that huge fanboy image in your signature! Not everyone who has better understanding of technology than you is a fanboy.
You don't even have to scroll up, cause I quote myself for you:
crow26 said:
Actually Android does offer a push notification service for such scenarios, so WP7 has no advantage at all.
In fact, WP7 has a huge disadvantage, because the push service in WP7 always drains your battery even when you don't want it. There aren't many scenarios where you need push instead of polling.
And even if you use push instead of polling (e.g. for an IM app), there are times when you'll want to terminate the connections, in order to save battery life (e.g. if you enter an area with bad reception). You can easily do so in Android, but you can't do that in WP7.
That's why most WP7 users will see drastically shorter battery life than most Android users. Again, a good idea from Microsoft with a very bad implementation.
Live tiles have no advantages. Instead, the limitations in WP7 do more harm than good.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

What is the point of a push service if it's not enabled? This is just yet another example of android fragmentation.

lqaddict said:
I understand the concept of the weather app - it is a poll application. I guess I got confused on what can be called a LIVE Tile app and what is not. If there is no difference b/w designing an app to use either mechanism (it would seem the poll application will be more cost effective to design, since you don't have to deploy a separate service at the develop end to push the notifications) I don't see why there is such a hype over which apps can be LIVE and which cannot.
In the case as illustrated by weatehrbug all information update apps can be called LIVE Tile apps, even a battery status app.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Push notifications are slightly more efficient for the reasons given: http://www.koushikdutta.com/2009/03/push-notification-to-mobile-devices-via.html
http://jkontherun.com/2009/07/06/are-push-notifications-better-than-background-apps/
Instead of apps having to run in the background in order to poll servers for updates, push allows the OS to manage retrieving updates for all apps through a single pipeline.
Unfortunately it means your phone has to maintain a constant TCP\IP connection to a Microsoft push server.
I personally think the best option would be to allow developers to register code snippets with the OS that run on regular intervals. This way, the entire app doesn't have to stay running. For only a few apps, this would probably be the most efficient solution.
For more than 5 apps, push would probably work better

If fragmentation saves bettery life and creates a better user experience, there's nothing wrong with it.
And by the way, this is called choice, not fragmentation.

AceofSpades25 said:
I personally think the best option would be to allow developers to register code snippets with the OS that run on regular intervals.
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Click to collapse
Exactly - and coincidentally, that's exactly what Android does.
It provides a task scheduler in addition to push and full multitasking - that's choice (some call it "fragmentation").
AceofSpades25 said:
This way, the entire app doesn't have to stay running. For only a few apps, this would probably be the most efficient solution.
For more than 5 apps, push would probably work better
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Most people don't have many apps that require a persistent connection. IM apps are an example where it makes sense. But then again, you want to be able to turn them off if you're in an area with bad reception or running low on battery.
It makes sense to be able to choose the method that works best and has the least impact on battery life. Apparently WP7 needs more "fragmentation".
@Rusty
You know, just because someone has better understanding of technology and knows which product is better, it doesn't mean he's a fanboy. It just means he's got a clue.

Windows Phone 7 and multitasking

This is a clarification thread, and I will not, unlike my other attempt, be fooled into a pissing contest. There just seems to be a lot of misunderstanding when it comes to "multitasking" on Windows Phone 7, and I will try to clarify a little bit.
Problem: You're in a program, start another one, and then start the original again - and your data is gone, or if it's a game you have to start from the beginning.
Answer: This has nothing to do with multitasking, but something called tombstoning. The developers has to take into account what to do when a program is exited by starting another program, and most seem to just ignore it. That is when you lose your data or have to start the game from scratch
Problem: "Windows Phone doesn't multitask", "When will we get multitasking" etc
Answer: Windows Phone can multitask just fine. So can the programs running on Windows Phone. What most people refer to when asking these questions is really either the question above, or if developers will be allowed to run programs in the background. Multitasking is being able to more than one thing at the time, and the most simple test to see if your phone supports it or not is to see if you can receive phone calls or listen to music while you're checking mail. So - your phone can both multitask and run applications in the background (which is called scheduling, actually, as multitasking doesn't necessarily mean running a program that isn't in the foreground - uploading a picture to your sky drive while letting you browse the other pictures is typical multitasking).
Problem: "When will MS let us run programs in the background?"
Answer: There are both pros and cons to letting developers do this. A lot of developers aren't that good when it comes to using resources sensibly while in the background, and a lot of programs simply doesn't *need* to run in the background. If you're writing notes and want them back when you return, that's tombstoning. Playing a game? Well, you certainly don't want it to actually run in the background as you'll be dead when you return. Still tombstoning. One of the few applications is if you're listening to music (videos don't cound, because it doesn't make sense playing the video when you cannot watch it) or download larger amounts of data. The problem is that, if it's not done correctly, this can negatively impact performance (do you really want your game to stutter or have to wait two minutes for mail to open??), it can drain your battery, and it can even help distribute viruses. If MS wants to open this to developers, they need to have special testing procedures before they allow it. Also, misbehaving background apps will give most people a negative image of MS, which is apparent in all the threads dissing MS for not allowing "multitasking" because developers don't save data when exiting the application.
So, here's a short run-down of terms that are interesting in today's computer landscape:
* Multitasking: Being able to do more than one job at a time. Multitasking really just divides the processor time (available time to use the processor) and gives slices to different jobs.
* Multithreading: Being able to divide tasks into their own threads, thus allowing the use of more cores/processors. A multitasking, single threaded OS can only use one processor (simplification of the truth - if you know why it's a simplification, you don't need the full story. If you don't, it will only confuse you), while a multitasking, multithreaded OS can use more. Most programs, even for regular computers don't use multithreading, as it's a pain in the O to handle, but operating systems do. That's why, on a PC, Counter Strike will only use one of the cores on your brand new gaming rig with 8 cores, but all the cores will be active.
* Background scheduling: How the OS can let applications run in the background, usually by giving it less processor time (most often just free cycles) and thus letting it complete a time consuming process without making the system too slow to use. A foreground application will usually get more processor time than if it was running in the background.
I hope this clears it up, and helps people to understand what the different terms are and when to use it.
To sum up:
* Multitasking is available. There's no question about it. Windows Phone multitasks applications, and applications can multitask internally.
* Background scheduling is available, but is not an open API for developers. This has both positive and negative implications, depending on application
* A lot of developers are pretty bad when it comes to tombstoning.

Great post. There is nothing to be added. Sadly most ppl won't read the whole think or simply continue complaining.
I'm happy with the OS as it is, because I don't want all those crappy apps to suck my battery and fool with my CPU cycles.
In future real sceduling may be a capability of apps which need spezial certification. But I'm strictly against open APIs for that!

It has nothing to do with developers. If an OS is well written it will handle multitasking just fine, it's a nice excuse but a lame one. My old blackberry with a 400mhz processor and displays graphic icons can multi-task. Windows phone 7 with a 1ghz processor and is primarily text based won't allow it.
The keyword here is won't. We all know it's capable of doing it so why won't MS allow it? This is the reason why many major instant message apps are not available for this platform. What's the point of having an instant messager if it gets tombstoned when you switch screens? Big usability hole here.

the_Crispy said:
Great post. There is nothing to be added. Sadly most ppl won't read the whole think or simply continue complaining.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks
See the post below yours for confirmation that people won't read, but will gladly complain

I see what you mean and for the most part you got all the definitions correct, but you also have to see how WP7 handles apps and the pros and cons on the end-user.
WP7 actually just saves the state of the app when navigated away from, and does not actually enable you to RUN two apps at once so developers have to be really tricky with how they incorporate this into the OS. The pros are saving battery and not waste resources, the cons are that you cannot actually utilize the best parts of multi-tasking.
Do you want you game "running" in the background so you die? No, but the developer should know that and code the app appropriately. Do you want to be able to stream music in the background while checking emails or texting or tweeting? Of course. Not possible under the current version of WP7. How about playing a game/email/text while driving and having turn-by-turn navigation on? Nope. Developers might be lazy at times, but they're not usually idiots.
There's no question that the OS has the native ability to do so, no one ever argued that point. The beef is that MS has locked their OS down so they only allow Zune to do it. Well some of us don't like Zune or want to multi-task other apps too.
But MS wants to play it safe and see how multi-tasking is working out for Google and Apple before they actually allow it for any 3rd party apps, meanwhile the end-user suffers and the salesguy at the t-mobile store doesn't even show you an HD7 because you "can only do one thing at a time." MS needs to wake the hell up and allow 3rd party TRUE multi-tasking for 3rd party apps. It actually made some sense to not allow it for the initial release, it could have been a nightmare with an early OS and not that many apps anyways, developers had to get fancy and had to stay smart and honest, or their app would be killed with the quickness.
But it is time to free the OS to do some core things that it is really lacking:
1) True Multitasking
2) Copy and Paste
3) HTML5 and Flash support in IE
4) Third party web browsers
5) full direct camera access to apps
6) separate audio levels for media, ringtones, alarm (android really nailed this one)
of course other bugs and stuff, but these are the main issues for me. I don't blame MS for how they handled tombstoning and multi-tasking initially, but it's time (with efficiency) to catch up with the rest of the herd.

tiwas said:
and I will not, unlike my other attempt, be fooled into a pissing contest.
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pillsburydoughman said:
It has nothing to do with developers. If an OS is well written it will handle multitasking just fine, it's a nice excuse but a lame one. My old blackberry with a 400mhz processor and displays graphic icons can multi-task. Windows phone 7 with a 1ghz processor and is primarily text based won't allow it.
The keyword here is won't. We all know it's capable of doing it so why won't MS allow it? This is the reason why many major instant message apps are not available for this platform. What's the point of having an instant messager if it gets tombstoned when you switch screens? Big usability hole here.
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tiwas said:
Thanks
See the post below yours for confirmation that people won't read, but will gladly complain
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I'm not going to get into any ranting or raving or anything on this one, but please don't bash everyone who does not agree with you in this thread or claim they don't read.
The guy had a legitimate post about tombstoning an instant messenger and I have pointed out other times where MS drops the ball on this mulit-tasking issue.
Your OP is a good post and helps clear up some things, but you have to understand that there are real concerns with the OS not allowing 3rd party multi-tasking and just flaming anyone who does not think that this is the best way for the OS to operate.

It wasn't bashing. I was simply pointing out that he hadn't read the whole thing, as he, like you, didn't really understand the concept of multitasking.
Anyway, I'm not going to start arguing with you again.

pillsburydoughman said:
It has nothing to do with developers. If an OS is well written it will handle multitasking just fine, it's a nice excuse but a lame one. My old blackberry with a 400mhz processor and displays graphic icons can multi-task. Windows phone 7 with a 1ghz processor and is primarily text based won't allow it.
The keyword here is won't. We all know it's capable of doing it so why won't MS allow it? This is the reason why many major instant message apps are not available for this platform. What's the point of having an instant messager if it gets tombstoned when you switch screens? Big usability hole here.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
WP7 definitely has the capbility of multi tasking, or you won't be playing music while using IE. MS limited the multi tasking for 3rd party apps.
Your old phone or android phone can do multitanking without any system limit. As I know it's free for Android application to create background services. However it causes significant lag and battery drain. My captivate lose 4% power per hour on standby and I cannot even locate which app is causing such battery drain.
MS learned from apple that it's more important to keep the device running smooth than to let apps mess the phone up.

Who cares what you call it. People want to have a messenger or non zune music player in the background while they do other things and be able to QUICKLY respond to it. BASICALLY most people want what apple calls multitasking/fast app switching. Only certain things allowed and a proper save state when when leaving the app. It works great on the iPhone and i dont care what people say its simple and effective.

can WP7 multitask?

tiwas said:
It wasn't bashing. I was simply pointing out that he hadn't read the whole thing, as he, like you, didn't really understand the concept of multitasking.
Anyway, I'm not going to start arguing with you again.
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Click to collapse
well I think we both understand the concept of multi-tasking, just disagree with you on the wiseness of not allowing third party apps to be able to do so, someone disagreeing with you isn't the same thing as not understanding something; multi-tasking is actually a pretty easy concept to understand.
I don't want to argue with you again either, I just also don't want readers of this thread to be misinformed and to get all viewpoints regarding WP7's lack of multi-tasking support and then they can decide if they agree or not, but it doesn't mean that the subject is not understood.
I have no desire to start any beef on this thread, just keep in mind that when you start a thread you open a discussion open to disagreements, these don't mean that people don't read or don't understand necessarily. Don't be afraid to be wrong, it happens to everyone. We're all here to get the most out of our devices anyways.

So, you are shazaming a song on the radio, and get a phone call or a txt - will wp7 tombstone the live radio for you too?

Anthonok said:
Who cares what you call it. People want to have a messenger or non zune music player in the background while they do other things and be able to QUICKLY respond to it. BASICALLY most people want what apple calls multitasking/fast app switching. Only certain things allowed and a proper save state when when leaving the app. It works great on the iPhone and i dont care what people say its simple and effective.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Apple add this feature not until their 4th generation system
Let's see what the mango update will give us.

amtrakcn said:
Apple add this feature not until their 4th generation system
Let's see what the mango update will give us.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
what so they will add this in the 9 generation?(if you count 6.1 and 6.5)
Wow

vetvito said:
what so they will add this in the 9 generation?(if you count 6.1 and 6.5)
Wow
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's named WP7 but it's ACTUALLY WP1.
WM is designed to be a lite version of desktop windows with phone features
That's why it was powerful while hurting user experience

vetvito said:
can WP7 multitask?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You should read my full post. It's explained
I am absolutely sure big companies will be allowed to run in the background, and it's probably just a question about time before we get MSN Messenger running properly in the background.
There are other uses, like streaming music, but as for the suggestions of running GPS software with turn by turn instructions (you shouldn't play games or do anything with your phone while driving!) and having a game active in the background without letting your character die (cool! Let's spin our wheels! We're not going anywhere, but we sure are spending gas! ) are plain silly...
Ok, on my list of programs that will benefit from actually running in the background, I can only think of two now, but please help me put more on the list:
* Music streaming
* Messaging

vetvito said:
can WP7 multitask?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
nothing other than Zune right now
tiwas said:
but as for the suggestions of running GPS software with turn by turn instructions (you shouldn't play games or do anything with your phone while driving!) and having a game active in the background without letting your character die (cool! Let's spin our wheels! We're not going anywhere, but we sure are spending gas! ) are plain silly...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
well GPS would nice since sometimes you're the passenger and you still want turn by turn while gaming or emailing, so it needs to be supported in the mango update too.

Hi fellow XDA lovers
I just want to remind you all that we don't want a flame war here so keep it on topic please.

amtrakcn said:
Apple add this feature not until their 4th generation system
Let's see what the mango update will give us.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes it took them an extremely long time because apple is stubborn (or should i say Steve Jobs) and it is disappointing that Microsoft chose to pull an apple with WP7. But at least apple updated the iPhone....

lqaddict said:
So, you are shazaming a song on the radio, and get a phone call or a txt - will wp7 tombstone the live radio for you too?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I should probably be able to run in the background if you get a call. I can play games while on the phone, but it leaves a nasty orange block on the top of the screen to notify you that your on the phone. As far txt messaging go, yea that's a bummer. I just click the message when it comes up, respond, then click back to go to the game I was playing. Just hope that game saved your previous state.

Confusing comment from iPhone user on available data on home screen

My friend is an avid iPhone user and doesn't even bother looking at other devices really, but took a look at my omnia 7 and stated that while the interface looks far better, the home screen contains LESS information than the static icons with numbers next to them...
How do other users feel, do the vast amount of icons with numbered notifications, i.e. 20 icons on page 1, feel like more useful data than having about 6 tiles which can potentially hold more data overall and have the data be dynamic, more than just that there is a change in the app.
So simply, large amounts of static data or smaller amounts of dynamic data?

Michael_W_L said:
My friend is an avid iPhone user and doesn't even bother looking at other devices really, but took a look at my omnia 7 and stated that while the interface looks far better, the home screen contains LESS information than the static icons with numbers next to them...
How do other users feel, do the vast amount of icons with numbered notifications, i.e. 20 icons on page 1, feel like more useful data than having about 6 tiles which can potentially hold more data overall and have the data be dynamic, more than just that there is a change in the app.
So simply, large amounts of static data or smaller amounts of dynamic data?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
you open up a can of worms
it's personal taste I believe. I personally prefer the tile UI. I have relatives who currently own an iPhone and are very impressed with the WP7. The OS is only a year old and can only grow in user experience and performance. iOS seems to be an outdated OS IMHO. Very often it's what you got used to that works best for you and it's difficult to change to something new. iOS dominated the smartphone market for a long time. Give it 2-3 years and WP7 or WP8 will look outdated....
A poll in a Forum topic dedicated to WP7 that asks which UI is preferred will not provide any insight because most of us here decided to use WP7 for the very reason.

derausgewanderte said:
you open up a can of worms
it's personal taste I believe. I personally prefer the tile UI. I have relatives who currently own an iPhone and are very impressed with the WP7. The OS is only a year old and can only grow in user experience and performance. iOS seems to be an outdated OS IMHO. Very often it's what you got used to that works best for you and it's difficult to change to something new. iOS dominated the smartphone market for a long time. Give it 2-3 years and WP7 or WP8 will look outdated....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I like both, though, if the double sided tiles are used properly, tiles will win in my eyes. Having only a number as a notification got bland quickly to me, I liked that I knew exactly what had updates, but to do anything, I had to open an app. Tiles allow for you to see something, see if you want to reply now, or just leave it.
Smaller tiles woildn't work though, tiles will always have less items on the main display than icons.
I guess that it depends on how quickly you want to access your apps! I mean there are only about 5 notifications I can think of that are important tbh. App updates(that can rather be on the lower segment, news possibly weather possibly, messages, IM app email phone.
I was attracted to wp7 because of c#, and the panoramic UI, the tiles were a non-sequitor. At least it was fast, unlike the home screen of the 5800 I usd, which gives me nightmares still!

Michael_W_L said:
My friend is an avid iPhone user and doesn't even bother looking at other devices really, but took a look at my omnia 7 and stated that while the interface looks far better, the home screen contains LESS information than the static icons with numbers next to them...
How do other users feel, do the vast amount of icons with numbered notifications, i.e. 20 icons on page 1, feel like more useful data than having about 6 tiles which can potentially hold more data overall and have the data be dynamic, more than just that there is a change in the app.
So simply, large amounts of static data or smaller amounts of dynamic data?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The iPhone home screen isn't static icons. When you get notifications in, there's a ticker by the application icon similar to the stars that appear by icons on a Blackberry. Android skins like TouchWiz 4.0 and Sense 3.0/3.5 use similar tickers.
It really depends on how you look at it, TBQH.
Tiles are big so you cannot see as many application icons/tiles on one screen in WP7 as you can icon on an iPhones, so if they have all their most-used applications on their home pane, they may very well see more information on their home screen than you do.
*Most* WP7 "Live Tiles" are nothing more than a number that appears on the icon.
iOS5 will have a completely revamped Notification System, though, so things get interesting when you look forward. Heres to hoping Microsoft gives us a useful notification system cause Tile Counters/Live Tiles and Toasts aren't nearly enough. Apple seems to have found that out, so hopefully Microsoft will - eventually.
Not voting in the poll cause the options are ignorant.

N8ter said:
The iPhone home screen isn't static icons. When you get notifications in, there's a ticker by the application icon similar to the stars that appear by icons on a Blackberry. Android skins like TouchWiz 4.0 and Sense 3.0/3.5 use similar tickers.
It really depends on how you look at it, TBQH.
Tiles are big so you cannot see as many application icons/tiles on one screen in WP7 as you can icon on an iPhones, so if they have all their most-used applications on their home pane, they may very well see more information on their home screen than you do.
*Most* WP7 "Live Tiles" are nothing more than a number that appears on the icon.
iOS5 will have a completely revamped Notification System, though, so things get interesting when you look forward. Heres to hoping Microsoft gives us a useful notification system cause Tile Counters/Live Tiles and Toasts aren't nearly enough. Apple seems to have found that out, so hopefully Microsoft will - eventually.
Not voting in the poll cause the options are ignorant.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I see icons with tickers as static data. I see tiles with just numbers in the same way. Sadly alot of tiles are just oversized icons with tickers. Double sided tiles should make for more active tiles, but I completely agree that most are just basically icons with tickers.
The poll isn't wp7 vs iPhone, the poll is static data vs dynamic. The static data type gives consistent data which can be viewed in only one way. This is a nice general type, combine that with the ios notification system, or bada's current one and you have glanceble data with the possibility of seeign it all quickly.
Dynamic data on the otherhand would be like pinning a person and seeing their latest updates OR their latest pictures. Multiple possible data types which contain more information immediately. But it uses far more real estate as well.

Next version of apple's os will steal android's notification system so its a moot point imo. Tiles are cute, but as the cornerstone of the wp7 notification system its pretty terrible. I'm still in awe that they did nothing to improve notifications in mangos. I just cannot believe it.
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App

Its personal taste (as someone else said). For me the best notifiactions system came with WebOS, I also like the android system and the WP7 system. I don't like the current ios notifications (on my ipad) but I guess when ios 5 comes (with android style notifications) that will be OK too. For me, the main plus point of WP7 over the other UI's is the simple uncluttered view. I am forever "losing my place" on my ipad screens, it was the same with my Android Desire too.

How can you lose your place when you have dots that tell you what pane you're on?

N8ter said:
How can you lose your place when you have dots that tell you what pane you're on?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Could never remember which pane I had pinned an app on, my eyesight is not brilliant and the small app icons (even on the ipad) are difficult for me to pick out sometimes - like I said though, it is a personal thing.

One thing remind me.
Windows Phone 7 + Apple's Store apps = WIN.
Apps is one of the main reason people choose iPhone.

Strike_Eagle said:
Apps is one of the main reason people choose iPhone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And, unfortunately, one thing that is starting to come out more and more in customer surveys is that most people who own iPhones are reluctant to switch to another platform because of their investment in their apps. Not only have they paid for them, they spent the time to learn how to use them (and let's face it, most apps behave differently on WP7 than they do on iOS, because of the differences in the OS itself).

Yep and developers give ios versions preferential treatment on top of that. Faster feature updates, bug fixes, etc.
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App
EDIT: And this is a big issue since developers do not allow you to transfer licenses you've already bought on one platform to another. With some apps costing $9.99 or more in some cases (really once you get to $4.99 people start feeling locked in if they have to repurchase), this becomes an issue quite quickly.
Bought 10 apps over the span of 2 years on another platform that you use a lot. When you move to another one, you have to repurchase them immediately. You don't get 2 more years to do it, unless you want to cripple your usage patterns for inordinate amounts of time. That can be anywhere from 10 to 100 bucks, more in some cases, right off the bat.

One thing that isn't true with mango anymore, and I love it, is the one to one mapping from app to tile/icon.
Now I only map the content that I care about from apps to my main screen. Even multiple things from one App. Instead of having just huge app Icons.
So for the first time, Tiles start to be really different to being just big App-Icons. They start to be Content-Tiles. It's a huge difference, and something the iPhone right now does not provide.

RoboDad said:
And, unfortunately, one thing that is starting to come out more and more in customer surveys is that most people who own iPhones are reluctant to switch to another platform because of their investment in their apps. Not only have they paid for them, they spent the time to learn how to use them (and let's face it, most apps behave differently on WP7 than they do on iOS, because of the differences in the OS itself).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, i still remember the version of Angry Bird on Android and iOS are free. and we have to pay for it.

N8ter said:
Bought 10 apps over the span of 2 years on another platform that you use a lot. When you move to another one, you have to repurchase them immediately. You don't get 2 more years to do it, unless you want to cripple your usage patterns for inordinate amounts of time. That can be anywhere from 10 to 100 bucks, more in some cases, right off the bat.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's unbelievable how cheap people can get to see this as a problem.

vangrieg said:
It's unbelievable how cheap people can get to see this as a problem.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Most people (as in, the overwhelmingly vast majority) don't have unlimited disposable income. They get their phones on contract, so they can get heavily subsidized prices. Further, most people aren't thrilled at the prospect of paying a second fee for their apps, just to move from one phone platform to another. Purchasing a second license to add a second device would be a different matter, but that is not what we are discussing here. It would be paying an additional fee simply to maintain what they already have. When faced with that choice, most people will stay where they are. It is basic human nature.

So if purchased apps keep someone glued to a platform Microsoft must be betting on getting the lion's share of users coming from a 'non' smartphone; like me.

Unlimited income? We're talking $10-100 here, and since you mention subsidized handsets, "first world" countries. I understand that people don't like paying (twice) but this isn't money we're talking about, it's pocket change.
What a world.

That's the thing, iOS notification on the home screen isn't changing. It will still be static little bubbles. Live tiles could change how they work, what they do and show, they already are animated and double sided and get push notification. And I have mango and some changes on how they work is great to see.
I have my tiles set up like this: phone and alarm tiles on top, messaging and people hub, my personal linked email accounts and then my work, xbox hub with 7 more tiles of the games I am playing, Zune and resco radio, calendar, ie9 and maps, arkwords, weather apps with live tile, and so on. 40 tiles in total, and all of the info I need on one screen that scrolls smoothly. I love it ^_^

All I have to say is that I have purchased Fruit Ninja on ios,iPad ios,windows phone,android,android tablet tegra version. People need to stop being cheap. Plus it's not like if you don't use it, you lose it lol

HTC Sense on wp7 devices...

Will there be an HTC Sense port coming to wp7 soon?

Vukile said:
Will there be an HTC Sense port coming to wp7 soon?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, it will not. Never ever.

not sure why you would even want it anyway. The metro interface is the main feature of WP7. If you want HTC Sense, get a Android or WM6.5 device.
You will never see it on WP7, the closest you will see is the HTC hub app

dkp1977 said:
No, it will not. Never ever.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
you mean, even for HTC devices? I can only look at little blocks on my screen for so long.. Is anyone working on an alternative UI,even if its not embedded?

Vukile said:
you mean, even for HTC devices? I can only look at little blocks on my screen for so long.. Is anyone working on an alternative UI,even if its not embedded?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry, but did you even bother to do some research or at least try Windows Phone before buying the device? OO

Not coming. Gonna have to deal with the tiles.

Vukile said:
you mean, even for HTC devices? I can only look at little blocks on my screen for so long.. Is anyone working on an alternative UI,even if its not embedded?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I will admit, I wish I could customize the tiles/background of homepage a little bit but,that is the advantage of WP7. Your data when you need it and that is the point of the tiles.
If you want to customize the UI, sell your WP7 device and get yourself an Android device. You'll get Sense and every other cusstomization feature you can dream of.
You will NEVER see HTC Sense on WIndows Phone 7

For Microsoft, the Metro UI is what differentiates them from the competition, they are not going to compromise that and allow alternate UIs any time soon, if you dont like Metro please, please do not buy a WP7 device.

Let's hope for a Live title of HTC hub to be a Sense Clock with Weather report

Strike_Eagle said:
Let's hope for a Live title of HTC hub to be a Sense Clock with Weather report
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No. It would still be useless. It's basically that right now, and it's useless in it's current state because of the way Background Tasks work on WP7.
They can only download data every 30 minutes, and when your battery is low some may get shut off.
This is why I can drive 20 minutes through 2 cities at times and the HTC Hub never updates the weather. It does that through a background task data download, because PUSH Notifications on WP7 cannot trigger a background data download. It's why EVERYTHING on WP7 has to refresh when you go into a Hub. Ever notice even the WLM/FB Chat Statuses in Messenger Hub refreshes whenever you go into the HUB, even though you've been getting PUSH Notifications for incoming messages?
Email, People, HTC Hubs do the same thing.
It's also why if you use two devices you'll notice WP7 is monumentally slower at showing updates on it's Me Tile than the C2DM/iOS PUSH Notifications that come in on other platforms. It's cause you don't get them until the Background task does it's think and sees the update. Then, and only then, will the phone display the notification. If you have the Facebook application from Microsoft installed, it's easy to notice this, because the Toasts form that app will arrive a long time before the Me tile flips, unless it came in RIGHT before the background task was due to run.
In order to keep the clock running, the background task would have to be always running, so that the tile could stay in sync with the phone's clock. I am not sure Microsoft is going to let a third party app do that - OEM or not - because of how it can affect battery life. Secondly, in order to update the weather speedily, the background task would have to run significantly more often, becuase WP7 cannot update data through PUSH Notifications like Android can with C2DM. Not even Microsoft's HUBs work like that. They're not gonna make an exception just for HTC or Samsung.
That's precicely the reason why Android Web Marketplace initiates app downloads from the web with C2DM, but WP7 utilizes an encoded SMS to do that.
As WP7 matures, I think the capabilities of PUSH Notifications and Live Tiles alike will improve as well. Right now, they'd have to make too many concessions just for one App/Hub, and it isn't worth it.
It's not going to happen, not in the very near future.
P.S. The above reasons are why some of us want a global Notification Cache. Even for Social updates, the Me Tile is largely useless due to its dependence on a background task that only runs every 30 minutes. Using 3rd party apps that support Toast Notifications (which could theoretically be cached on the device) would result in consistently MUCH faster Notification speeds and a cache will allow you to get to and prioritize them better in the event you're away for the phone for the 10 seconds after the Toast came in

N8ter said:
No. It would still be useless. It's basically that right now, and it's useless in it's current state because of the way Background Tasks work on WP7.
They can only download data every 30 minutes, and when your battery is low some may get shut off.
This is why I can drive 20 minutes through 2 cities at times and the HTC Hub never updates the weather. It does that through a background task data download, because PUSH Notifications on WP7 cannot trigger a background data download. It's why EVERYTHING on WP7 has to refresh when you go into a Hub. Ever notice even the WLM/FB Chat Statuses in Messenger Hub refreshes whenever you go into the HUB, even though you've been getting PUSH Notifications for incoming messages?
Email, People, HTC Hubs do the same thing.
It's also why if you use two devices you'll notice WP7 is monumentally slower at showing updates on it's Me Tile than the C2DM/iOS PUSH Notifications that come in on other platforms. It's cause you don't get them until the Background task does it's think and sees the update. Then, and only then, will the phone display the notification. If you have the Facebook application from Microsoft installed, it's easy to notice this, because the Toasts form that app will arrive a long time before the Me tile flips, unless it came in RIGHT before the background task was due to run.
In order to keep the clock running, the background task would have to be always running, so that the tile could stay in sync with the phone's clock. I am not sure Microsoft is going to let a third party app do that - OEM or not - because of how it can affect battery life. Secondly, in order to update the weather speedily, the background task would have to run significantly more often, becuase WP7 cannot update data through PUSH Notifications like Android can with C2DM. Not even Microsoft's HUBs work like that. They're not gonna make an exception just for HTC or Samsung.
That's precicely the reason why Android Web Marketplace initiates app downloads from the web with C2DM, but WP7 utilizes an encoded SMS to do that.
As WP7 matures, I think the capabilities of PUSH Notifications and Live Tiles alike will improve as well. Right now, they'd have to make too many concessions just for one App/Hub, and it isn't worth it.
It's not going to happen, not in the very near future.
P.S. The above reasons are why some of us want a global Notification Cache. Even for Social updates, the Me Tile is largely useless due to its dependence on a background task that only runs every 30 minutes. Using 3rd party apps that support Toast Notifications (which could theoretically be cached on the device) would result in consistently MUCH faster Notification speeds and a cache will allow you to get to and prioritize them better in the event you're away for the phone for the 10 seconds after the Toast came in
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
my me tile pushes the updates within a reasonable amount of time, so u are wrong again.

Even iPhone was selling different versions of those boring icons,even if you didn't change the UI you could customize it just a tad.. Without the customising,then what will happen to windows?

elcapo24682 said:
my me tile pushes the updates within a reasonable amount of time, so u are wrong again.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm not wrong, I timed it buddy. I'm a bit nerdish about these things, as you could see from the messenger discussions. Obviously, you don't have a clue and you're just guessing.
Stop trying to discuss things you have no flipping clue about.
Me tile notifications are slow as hell. The Facebook app is always minutes faster, often SEVERAL minutes faster due to the way Background tasks work on WP7.
Will do a YouTube video in a day or two. It's late, ATM, and I need someone to help test it out that's on my Facebook Friends list. I'll have iOS/Android/WP7 side by side and show you how slow the PUSH notifications are, as well as how ridiculously slow the Me Tile notifications/flips are.
That should settle that.
See you later.
P.S. I'm publishing the video to YouTube ATM to show the broken notifications in the Message Hub.

Vukile said:
Even iPhone was selling different versions of those boring icons,even if you didn't change the UI you could customize it just a tad.. Without the customising,then what will happen to windows?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nothing, because everyone's needs are different and most of those who have chosen WP7 are not after skins or deep customisation and so will keep on and enjoy using it. If you need to customise your phone, WP7 isnt for you. It just isnt designed for it and beyond changing the background colour between black and white, changing the theme colour and rearranging your tiles you cant do anything else. If you want Sense, more home screens, etc consider another OS. As WP7 is designed allowing OEM's to apply skins completely defeats the purpose.
Dont feel you have to use WP7 if it doesnt suit your needs, just go with what gives you the features you want. Ultimately, that will make your phone experience enjoyable.