Develop Bugs

"Multitasking" Stopwatch

Just to repeat myself about "tombstoning" and how it can represent multitasking as most people think of it, this article gives you an idea:
http://www.clr-namespace.com/post/Windows-Phone-7-Multitasking.aspx

Oh wow... so we can have (inaccurate) stopwatches "running" in the background on WP7? Great!
So, when I build a satellite navigation app, I set up a tombstone when the application is closed and when it's reactivated, I can calculate where the user is, because I knew where he was and how fast he was driving when he closed the app?
Awesome!
(oh and of course I don't take any responsibility for car accidents caused by my app - blame Microsoft or the idiots who said multitasking isn't needed when you got tombstones!)

You know, you would just use GPS for that

Yeah because usually it takes 0.000001 seconds to get a GPS fix!
Awesome!
Wait..... but how is my app supposed to give directions when it's closed? Hm, maybe not so awesome after all...
Satellite navigation is one of the most important things a smartphone must do and it sucks with WP7.
And have you heard that most of the mobile web traffic is porn, Pandora and Youtube?
WP7 does none of those three things! No Youtube, no Pandora, no porn... (don't know why people want porn on their phones, but I understand the Youtube part).
Seriously, how many moronic defenses can you fanboys come up with? This OS will be an even bigger failure than Kin if Microsoft doesn't change directions fast!

How are your application supposed to give directions if you're not using it?

I don't have a device to test with but I doubt it takes long for an app to get a fix. The OS probably keeps the GPS somewhat hot. Remember, Bing uses it when you search so they don't want it taking forever either.
And Bing has Satnav. Yea, I'm sure some will want a 3rd party solution but for most people, the FREE included nav will be just fine.

Fermat said:
Yeah because usually it takes 0.000001 seconds to get a GPS fix!
Awesome!
Wait..... but how is my app supposed to give directions when it's closed? Hm, maybe not so awesome after all...
Satellite navigation is one of the most important things a smartphone must do and it sucks with WP7.
And have you heard that most of the mobile web traffic is porn, Pandora and Youtube?
WP7 does none of those three things! No Youtube, no Pandora, no porn... (don't know why people want porn on their phones, but I understand the Youtube part).
Seriously, how many moronic defenses can you fanboys come up with? This OS will be an even bigger failure than Kin if Microsoft doesn't change directions fast!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well Flash is coming to the phone just after launch so that will solve your Youtube/Porn issue.

Windcape said:
How are your application supposed to give directions if you're not using it?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It allows you to continue using your turn-by-turn GPS while conducting a phone call

Windcape said:
How are your application supposed to give directions if you're not using it?
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Click to collapse
By giving voice guidance in background, for example.
RustyGrom said:
I don't have a device to test with but I doubt it takes long for an app to get a fix. The OS probably keeps the GPS somewhat hot. Remember, Bing uses it when you search so they don't want it taking forever either.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
When you search you don't need GPS, cell tower location is sufficient. Not so for driving. That cell tower location data helps to get the initial fix faster in modern devices, but still it's not instantaneous, which is a problem when you get an incoming phone call while using satnav in areas you don't know well. Otherwise, of course the OS doesn't (and shouldn't) keep GPS on. iOS 4 will keep it on while you're running satnav apps. WP7 won't.
RustyGrom said:
And Bing has Satnav. Yea, I'm sure some will want a 3rd party solution but for most people, the FREE included nav will be just fine.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, that will depend on where you live and where you travel. Bing Maps has horrible coverage worldwide. Apart from that, online satnav apps are an absolute taboo while roaming, you'll end up with thousands of dollars in your bill.

I think that incoming call doesn't suspend your app, the app will be allowed to keep working on foreground.
Also, GPS fix (cold) takes about 20s on my TP2, warm is instant . (Depends on if I have downloaded QuickGPS data though, but that's why I have data plan for.)

Funny how things change. When Apple did this it was the end of the world. Microsoft does it, its great, it's a new direction. Funny

vetvito said:
Funny how things change. When Apple did this it was the end of the world. Microsoft does it, its great, it's a new direction. Funny
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
when I had a iphone when I switched apps they didnt pause I had to start over when I returned to it, on wp7 it pauses it so in most cases its the best way to do it..it helps save battery while still being able to what you need to do. very few apps need to run in the backgroud besides GPS & streaming apps, once MS gives access to those apps that need to run in the background then yes it will be a great new direction. for now i dont mind it, i dont use Pandora & even on my tp2 when i use GPS i keep it on screen so i can do without it until they add it

Yeah pretty much like IOS4...

My problem with the iPhone's lack of multitasking wasn't so much with background running as with the fact that there's no easy way to switch between applications (namely, the incoming call while using satnav scenario, which is a major PITA in iPhone's case). I just need to minimize the dialer and keep using navigation. If that's handled (and it is in WP7's case) then the only issue is getting the fix again. Quite frankly, I find the recent iOS approach optimal for most cases, apart from the fact that it only has one button and an ultimately crappy task switcher. WP7 will allow me to go back to satnav with one tap of the Back button, so that'll work.
For other, more rare cases than those covered in iOS 4, I would really struggle to find real-life scenarios where a background process would really need to consume CPU cycles all the time (i.e. actually run). WM has a set of APIs called SNAPI, where background processes simply "register" for certain events and work only to process them. That can be done so that it won't really hurt either battery life or performance.
For the most rare cases where programs actually do need to run in background - well, I see lots of reasons why those can be really restricted, but, like with native APIs, MS could actually make exceptions in certain cases without allowing them by default - at least I would certainly agree with such a policy.
Maybe all this will be done with time, they never said multitasking won't be implemented, they'll just need to think about how to approach it better.
I personally think that lack of multitasking may be a problem, but it's actually the least of my worries with this OS. Much more relevant and serious issues are lack of c&p and lack of ways to register applications as system-wide filetype handlers. These are real bummers (apart from miserable language support and marketplace coverage of course).

vetvito said:
Funny how things change. When Apple did this it was the end of the world. Microsoft does it, its great, it's a new direction. Funny
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Except iOS didn't have a "pause" API from vanilla. They introduced something like tombstoning in iOS 4.

Windcape said:
Except iOS didn't have a "pause" API from vanilla. They introduced something like tombstoning in iOS 4.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They did, since the OS 2 release in 2008
In WP7 there's an Application_Deactivated event fired when the user is leaving the app, in the iPhone pre-iOS4 the event function was called applicationWillTermimate but the purpose was exactly the same : allowing the developper to save data before the app shutdown. Some apps were implementing it before iOS4.
In iOS4, the OS save the application state when you leave it (pretty much like Windows hibernation), whereas in WP7, the developper has to do some work to support tombstoning (and i'm not sure all of them developpers will)
I just hope that, when they support background running services API, the task manager won't be as lame as Apple one, showing programs that aren't even running...
My 2 cents

@kooled: Ah, my iPhone knowlegde is flawed then. Thanks for the clarification.
I think we can expect to see a background-service API, once they figured out how to design one that prevents from the phone lagging out entirely, like all Android phones does these days.
Android have taken over Windows role as the OS that requires constant restarts

Windcape said:
Android have taken over Windows role as the OS that requires constant restarts
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Click to collapse
That is really funny - it looks like you really believe these fantazies.
It's a really stable OS.

Fermat said:
And have you heard that most of the mobile web traffic is porn, Pandora and Youtube?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you need porn on your mobile device I suggest you better get a girlfriend
I think it's only US people who care about Pandora since it's not offered over here in Europe. Hey and we are all still alive over here even without it
Anyways: A Pandora app IS being developed, they were called out as a partner (see http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/15/microsoft-announces-windows-phone-7-series-dev-partners-sling/ ).
I think they might be able to integrate into the Zune hub and use the zune player API too.

The difference between the 2007 iphone and 2010 wp7 not having c&p and multitasking, is that when asked Apple's response was that you didn't need it, and Microsoft's response is that it's done not yet.

No 3rd party live tiles :(

So, unfortunately, it looks as if live tiles for 3rd party apps are too difficult and expensive
http://www.theunwired.net/?item=tho...ons-and-live-tiles-anywhere-in-the-cloud&5669
It's a pity, this was the one of the things that have made me consider a WP7 - I guess I'll just have to go to Android...

That isn't good for either the customer or 3rd party developers.
Hopefully M$ will change how the live tiles work as otherwise they will loose a big selling feature.

I'm not repeating myself... so look here http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=8768892&postcount=31

I think the statement in quoted from iridium21 link is not exactly correct. There is scheduled notifications type, that can update Live Tiles from local resources without the requirement of web service. It is a matter of dev implementation, not a WP7 flaw.
Edit: After some investigation I've discovered that actually Microsoft does not allow using local resource for changing the Tile through a tile schedule. So it’s true: no live tiles without web service.

To confirm , even official apps don't have live tiles. http://pocketnow.com/windows-phone/...&utm_campaign=Feed:+pocketnow+(pocketnow.com)

Without the live tiles, the whole point of WM7 is lost, in my opinion.
I was considering a Dell Venue Pro, but I think it's going to be a HTC Desire HD now...

I believe that this will come in a future update.
Hopefully I'm right.

I don't get it. Push notifications require server infrastructure. It was known from the moment Apple introduced them. The server has to know where to push what. This is also not news. It doesn't need to know any more details about you than needed to notify Microsoft servers to push it to your device, which is nothing personal, just your PN channel ID (token, or whatever it's called). If you want to get personalized data about, say, weather, you do have to store your preferences on the server. This is not a "security issue" in any way. Most importantly, this is not news. Why everybody is so upset about it now is beyond me.

iridium21 said:
So, unfortunately, it looks as if live tiles for 3rd party apps are too difficult and expensive
http://www.theunwired.net/?item=tho...ons-and-live-tiles-anywhere-in-the-cloud&5669
It's a pity, this was the one of the things that have made me consider a WP7 - I guess I'll just have to go to Android...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's too funny when a member previously posted it here http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=815463 he was called a troll, and android fan boy

iridium21 said:
So, unfortunately, it looks as if live tiles for 3rd party apps are too difficult and expensive
http://www.theunwired.net/?item=tho...ons-and-live-tiles-anywhere-in-the-cloud&5669
It's a pity, this was the one of the things that have made me consider a WP7 - I guess I'll just have to go to Android...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
they are not difficult, but need server infrastructure. But just step back and think about it. The services from which you need notifications are cloud based services. They already have the foundations for infrastructure. Now they need to add support for push notifications. They will do it. but will take time. it will be difficult for simple stand alone apps.. but which simple stand alone app you think needs notifications?
Android is already on its way to become an OS that needs regular resets to kill services that pile up in the background. (Remember Windows Mobile) Android does not kill an app until its RAM is full. All new phones have 512 MB RAM. it takes quite a few programs to reach a point when Android starts killing services. Till then, it takes a huge toll on battery.

arkavat said:
Android is already on its way to become an OS that needs regular resets to kill services that pile up in the background. (Remember Windows Mobile) Android does not kill an app until its RAM is full. All new phones have 512 MB RAM. it takes quite a few programs to reach a point when Android starts killing services. Till then, it takes a huge toll on battery.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No truth to any of that. But lets stay on topic though.

Push notifications are a better way for interacting with web services in terms of preserving battery than having a bunch of services that continuously poll servers in background. I think it's hard to argue otherwise. However, push notifications aren't a substitute for multitasking in general, or even local notifications. They are a substitute for one specific use case - alerting users when certain events happen outside the phone.
My question remains, however - why is everybody anxious about it now? What exactly happened between MIX, when all of this became public knowledge, and now?

arkavat said:
they are not difficult, but need server infrastructure. But just step back and think about it. The services from which you need notifications are cloud based services. They already have the foundations for infrastructure. Now they need to add support for push notifications. They will do it. but will take time. it will be difficult for simple stand alone apps.. but which simple stand alone app you think needs notifications?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I guess the whole point is that standalone apps don't need push notifications but have to rely on them simply to update homescreen tiles, which is an obvious overkill. I have a couple of apps that use badge notifications on the iPhone currently. One is a Google RSS reader, another is the Read It Later app. They both connect to web services, it's very useful that they show information about unread items on the home screen, but none of them really needs their own server infrastructure. Well, they could use it, but don't have to.

I hear bad things about the battery life of WP7 phones... apparently the lack of multitaskung doesn't help at all... Android still provides better battery life, despite that lots of apps can poll and update widgets in the background.
Don't trust the marketing blabla. WP7 will only be a static grid of icons, just like iOS. The only OS that REALLY is "live" is Android.

crow26 said:
WP7 will only be a static grid of icons, just like iOS.
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Click to collapse
That's simply wrong. WP7 still supports live tiles updatable through push notification, iOS - not. Still, Android would remain most feature rich platform with all advantages and disadvantages that comes with that.

The phone can also poll for updates on a scheduled basis (every hour, day, week, or month). They don't have to be push. This will work well for things like weather updates where you don't need instaneous info anyways.

martoto said:
That's simply wrong. WP7 still supports live tiles updatable through push notification, iOS - not. Still, Android would remain most feature rich platform with all advantages and disadvantages that comes with that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I would ignore him. Mods already closed his other thread bashing WP7 and talking about how amazing Android is. It's clear he has an agenda and nothing of actual importance to say.

Live tile from weatherbug
http://www.wpcentral.com/weatherbug...feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+wmexperts+(wpcentral)
Don't know if its Live like MS tiles though.
Push notifications equals bubbles like the iPhone.

iridium21 said:
So, unfortunately, it looks as if live tiles for 3rd party apps are too difficult and expensive
http://www.theunwired.net/?item=tho...ons-and-live-tiles-anywhere-in-the-cloud&5669
It's a pity, this was the one of the things that have made me consider a WP7 - I guess I'll just have to go to Android...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think Microsoft need to make a web service available (perhaps through their Bing domain) that will allow developers to send their notifications to it, and then it could push those notifications onto the phone. Most developers will not have the budget to run their own webservices for notifications.

martoto said:
That's simply wrong. WP7 still supports live tiles updatable through push notification, iOS - not. Still, Android would remain most feature rich platform with all advantages and disadvantages that comes with that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
READ the first post cause you didn't understand anything.

Official Windows Phone Survey

From @windowsphone on twitter: http://newwp.it/i6NfzI
On the last page there's this question, "What, if anything, would you change about your Windows Phone 7?" Bombard away with what MS needs to be working on (file management or at least local document sync, direct Outlook sync, etc.) Please make sure what you guys write is thought out and most importantly, grammatically correct.

* Give us an official support page and a contact number for issues
* Clear outline & timeline of future updates
* More frequent updates and force carriers to deploy them in maximum of 45 days
* Enable to use own MP3 ringtones
* Sync directly to Outlook
* Allow tethering
* Turn by turn navigation for Australia with better maps
* Allow unlocking of the device for a one of fee! Only charge per year when someone wants to submit to marketplace

janemanno1 said:
* Give us an official support page and a contact number for issues
* Clear outline & timeline of future updates
* More frequent updates and force carriers to deploy them in maximum of 45 days
* Enable to use own MP3 ringtones
* Sync directly to Outlook
* Allow tethering
* Turn by turn navigation for Australia with better maps
* Tom Tom,Garmin etc GPS compatible software
* Allow unlocking of the device for a one of fee! Only charge per year when someone wants to submit to marketplace
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Amen to all of these.
Just changed one thing for every other country.

More recent hardware, and I am in.

agp64 said:
Amen to all of these.
Just changed one thing for every other country.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
agreed

Zune Pass in australia. Our zune hub isnt very pretty without it

Well, I would like to see multitasking, some options on the right of the home screen, let's say a button, that would open a line of Wifi on/off and etc., Copy paste, better browser. And what's important- update devices, give more info about the updates, what is coming and when

janemanno1 said:
* Clear outline & timeline of future updates
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
FWIW, remember a little thing called "Longhorn" (aka "Vista")? So many promised features and released dates missed. I doubt you'll ever see anything other than vague descriptions and nebulous dates, Microsoft has been slapped around too much in the past for missing promises.

My comment:
- SkyDrive if you dont have sharepoint in the officehub.
- More reliable push notifications.
- Expanding Facebook integration with ability to send private messages from the message hub to facebook and other services... but this will probably not happen so hope the fb app gets better with notifications.

I would love to have a bug free ZUNE , it is crashing all the time and sometimes with BSOD'S

Turn-by-turn voice nav
User selectable ringtones and sounds
User created email folders
More themes and UI customization
Screen capture
Copy & paste

A good one:
http://wmpoweruser.com/the-art-of-stalling/

doministry said:
A good one:
http://wmpoweruser.com/the-art-of-stalling/
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That is unremarkably sad. I didn't know it was that serious.

That is unremarkably sad. I didn't know it was that serious.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think you mean remarkably sad?
And android wasn't the same way at launch?
I purchased the HTC Magic on launch day from Rogers.. Android market wasn't made available to us in Canada until roughly 5 months later..
I didn't get turn-by-turn until aprox a year or so later..
No voice search until ...what...3 updates which took roughly a year and half (1.5, 1.6...2.1)
They day I dumped my HTC magic I still didn't have local search.. unless I opened a browser and went to Google.CA and specified my city in the search field.
WP7 wil catch up eventually, it's still a baby OS compared to the others. Android didn't really become great until after 2.XX
I agree with other with the timeline business. I'd like to see that as well.

I just put a CDMA version of WP7.... It is about time we have the option of getting one.

Things to change about Windows Phone 7
--------------------------------------
1) Password protection on email. This is needed when you hand your phone to someone to check out or use and don't want them to be able to just click on your email while that happens and read private emails.
2) The marketplace should have an option to download first and install later. This is because public wifi or data plans in general are not nearly as fast as using your local wifi. You might pop into a coffee shop or mcdonalds to try some new apps on the go and you want to maximise your use of the wifi while you are there to get through the download queue. Installing/unpacking can take quite a long time but that can be done when you are no longer connected. This also aids in saving on limited data plans. With this approach, if there is no more space currently left to unpack the queue should move on and unpack successively but keep downloaded packages on the device to be installed later once the user frees up some more space.
3) Better managaement of marketplace download queue. I have had stuck downloads before, particularly at pending or corrupted downloads that were stuck at the installing phase. You should always be able to cancel or retry something. These options only come up when "attention is required". Queue reordering is also a strong "nice to have".
4) Better Management of phone download history. For example, when I restore a phone I don't want it to queue up literally everything I have ever "purchased", especially many trial or free apps. There should be a special "restore" queue for indispensible games/apps that you do want to automatically redownload when this happens.
5) Better lock phone i.e. android combination swype. The current 4 digit system is too easy to see over the shoulder and easily brute forceable, even more so if someone remembers only some of the digits.
6) Complete application data/isolated storage sync. Anytime you are at a local computer or connection to sync, you should have an option sync the latest application data for example news feeds and media as well. This way data connection apps are still useful in places without a connection i.e. subways. I understand this is a major feature just by itself
7) VPN options
8) Local file management/drag and drop.
9) Ability for Zune to play and organise media by folders with 8 implemented.
In general I think WP7 should be stronger with local/isolated storage features and not be so cloud dependent. The combination of cloud + local services will be a killer combination. In addition I think WP7 should be going after Android's #2 spot right now and not iPhone which it currently cannot compete with. Android has many weak spots including lower requirements on apps and games resulting in weaker quality when compared to WP7, lack of SD installability for many apps. and generally unpolished "iphone knockoff" feel. Secure #2 spot for now, which will be a good base to attack iPhone from. WP7 is already superior to Android in UX now and can gain quickly in app diversity and features.
Right now the OS feels like a beachhead but a strong one. There is good work, but unpolished and incomplete but the war can still be won. Keep fighting the good fight

The bottom line is that if MS wants this OS to fly for real, in the long term, they need to get their act together.

stillriza said:
I think you mean remarkably sad?
And android wasn't the same way at launch?
I purchased the HTC Magic on launch day from Rogers.. Android market wasn't made available to us in Canada until roughly 5 months later..
I didn't get turn-by-turn until aprox a year or so later..
No voice search until ...what...3 updates which took roughly a year and half (1.5, 1.6...2.1)
They day I dumped my HTC magic I still didn't have local search.. unless I opened a browser and went to Google.CA and specified my city in the search field.
WP7 wil catch up eventually, it's still a baby OS compared to the others. Android didn't really become great until after 2.XX
I agree with other with the timeline business. I'd like to see that as well.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So what I hear you saying, any company that puts out products should not consider the current state of the industry? What should Apple do with the next iPhone? Put one out without all the current features and then migrate those features into it over the course of a year? Or how about the car companies, they should put out cars without navigation or high tech stereos or computer aided engine controls and just migrate those features into them over the course of a year?
Far be it from MS to stay up with even itself on new products and put out a smartphone without the current state of the industry features. Let them put those features in over the course of a year...or two. It's unwise to bring a mature product to market. People might begin to expect that kind of thing. Bollocks!

My feedback on the online survey:
-Current phone - WM 6.5
- Next phone - (i) Android
(ii) Other- Windows Mobile, if it is revived , will be preferred over Android
Suggestions:
(i) I don't like the Homescreen, it should be more customizable and at the very least the tiles
should be resizable.
(ii) There should be a favorite people hub with the option to pin a contact directly to this hub from
the contacts list (tap and hold on contact should give at least 3-4 options viz. pin to favorites, pin
to start, edit & send)
(iii) After device purchase, the user should have the option to replace the homescreen with an
approved one from reputed developers(I will prefer a solution from SPB software).
(iv) There is too much scrolling in the program list, option of grid view should also be there.
(v) Size of headings too large in the hubs. The headings should either be in a background layer or
they should Auto Hide after somtime and be replaced with blinking arrows on the left/right edges of
the screen.
(vi) File Explorer + Multitasking.
(vii) Office applictions should be more powerful.
(viii) Availability of powerful Calendar & Task management applications like pocket informant.
(x) Revival of Phone/End hardware buttons.
Forgot to add - (xi) Revive Smart-dialling
(xii) Bring back outlook sync

MartyLK said:
So what I hear you saying, any company that puts out products should not consider the current state of the industry? What should Apple do with the next iPhone? Put one out without all the current features and then migrate those features into it over the course of a year? Or how about the car companies, they should put out cars without navigation or high tech stereos or computer aided engine controls and just migrate those features into them over the course of a year?
Far be it from MS to stay up with even itself on new products and put out a smartphone without the current state of the industry features. Let them put those features in over the course of a year...or two. It's unwise to bring a mature product to market. People might begin to expect that kind of thing. Bollocks!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree with you.. but what I was saying is Android was the same way. Apple already had a pretty good grip on the market at the time Android launched. As per what you mentioned above.. it was clear Android didn't have a grasp of the then current state of the market. Several updates later.. and look at them now.
Basically, any company that puts out a product should consider the current state..but sadly that just doesn't always happen. The phone is pretty complete to I would like to say 70% of the general phone using public. It seems MS had targeted the OS to those switching from 'dumb' phones, if you will, to smart phones. The only people who are really hurting would be the power users. The updates will come.

Confusing comment from iPhone user on available data on home screen

My friend is an avid iPhone user and doesn't even bother looking at other devices really, but took a look at my omnia 7 and stated that while the interface looks far better, the home screen contains LESS information than the static icons with numbers next to them...
How do other users feel, do the vast amount of icons with numbered notifications, i.e. 20 icons on page 1, feel like more useful data than having about 6 tiles which can potentially hold more data overall and have the data be dynamic, more than just that there is a change in the app.
So simply, large amounts of static data or smaller amounts of dynamic data?

Michael_W_L said:
My friend is an avid iPhone user and doesn't even bother looking at other devices really, but took a look at my omnia 7 and stated that while the interface looks far better, the home screen contains LESS information than the static icons with numbers next to them...
How do other users feel, do the vast amount of icons with numbered notifications, i.e. 20 icons on page 1, feel like more useful data than having about 6 tiles which can potentially hold more data overall and have the data be dynamic, more than just that there is a change in the app.
So simply, large amounts of static data or smaller amounts of dynamic data?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
you open up a can of worms
it's personal taste I believe. I personally prefer the tile UI. I have relatives who currently own an iPhone and are very impressed with the WP7. The OS is only a year old and can only grow in user experience and performance. iOS seems to be an outdated OS IMHO. Very often it's what you got used to that works best for you and it's difficult to change to something new. iOS dominated the smartphone market for a long time. Give it 2-3 years and WP7 or WP8 will look outdated....
A poll in a Forum topic dedicated to WP7 that asks which UI is preferred will not provide any insight because most of us here decided to use WP7 for the very reason.

derausgewanderte said:
you open up a can of worms
it's personal taste I believe. I personally prefer the tile UI. I have relatives who currently own an iPhone and are very impressed with the WP7. The OS is only a year old and can only grow in user experience and performance. iOS seems to be an outdated OS IMHO. Very often it's what you got used to that works best for you and it's difficult to change to something new. iOS dominated the smartphone market for a long time. Give it 2-3 years and WP7 or WP8 will look outdated....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I like both, though, if the double sided tiles are used properly, tiles will win in my eyes. Having only a number as a notification got bland quickly to me, I liked that I knew exactly what had updates, but to do anything, I had to open an app. Tiles allow for you to see something, see if you want to reply now, or just leave it.
Smaller tiles woildn't work though, tiles will always have less items on the main display than icons.
I guess that it depends on how quickly you want to access your apps! I mean there are only about 5 notifications I can think of that are important tbh. App updates(that can rather be on the lower segment, news possibly weather possibly, messages, IM app email phone.
I was attracted to wp7 because of c#, and the panoramic UI, the tiles were a non-sequitor. At least it was fast, unlike the home screen of the 5800 I usd, which gives me nightmares still!

Michael_W_L said:
My friend is an avid iPhone user and doesn't even bother looking at other devices really, but took a look at my omnia 7 and stated that while the interface looks far better, the home screen contains LESS information than the static icons with numbers next to them...
How do other users feel, do the vast amount of icons with numbered notifications, i.e. 20 icons on page 1, feel like more useful data than having about 6 tiles which can potentially hold more data overall and have the data be dynamic, more than just that there is a change in the app.
So simply, large amounts of static data or smaller amounts of dynamic data?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The iPhone home screen isn't static icons. When you get notifications in, there's a ticker by the application icon similar to the stars that appear by icons on a Blackberry. Android skins like TouchWiz 4.0 and Sense 3.0/3.5 use similar tickers.
It really depends on how you look at it, TBQH.
Tiles are big so you cannot see as many application icons/tiles on one screen in WP7 as you can icon on an iPhones, so if they have all their most-used applications on their home pane, they may very well see more information on their home screen than you do.
*Most* WP7 "Live Tiles" are nothing more than a number that appears on the icon.
iOS5 will have a completely revamped Notification System, though, so things get interesting when you look forward. Heres to hoping Microsoft gives us a useful notification system cause Tile Counters/Live Tiles and Toasts aren't nearly enough. Apple seems to have found that out, so hopefully Microsoft will - eventually.
Not voting in the poll cause the options are ignorant.

N8ter said:
The iPhone home screen isn't static icons. When you get notifications in, there's a ticker by the application icon similar to the stars that appear by icons on a Blackberry. Android skins like TouchWiz 4.0 and Sense 3.0/3.5 use similar tickers.
It really depends on how you look at it, TBQH.
Tiles are big so you cannot see as many application icons/tiles on one screen in WP7 as you can icon on an iPhones, so if they have all their most-used applications on their home pane, they may very well see more information on their home screen than you do.
*Most* WP7 "Live Tiles" are nothing more than a number that appears on the icon.
iOS5 will have a completely revamped Notification System, though, so things get interesting when you look forward. Heres to hoping Microsoft gives us a useful notification system cause Tile Counters/Live Tiles and Toasts aren't nearly enough. Apple seems to have found that out, so hopefully Microsoft will - eventually.
Not voting in the poll cause the options are ignorant.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I see icons with tickers as static data. I see tiles with just numbers in the same way. Sadly alot of tiles are just oversized icons with tickers. Double sided tiles should make for more active tiles, but I completely agree that most are just basically icons with tickers.
The poll isn't wp7 vs iPhone, the poll is static data vs dynamic. The static data type gives consistent data which can be viewed in only one way. This is a nice general type, combine that with the ios notification system, or bada's current one and you have glanceble data with the possibility of seeign it all quickly.
Dynamic data on the otherhand would be like pinning a person and seeing their latest updates OR their latest pictures. Multiple possible data types which contain more information immediately. But it uses far more real estate as well.

Next version of apple's os will steal android's notification system so its a moot point imo. Tiles are cute, but as the cornerstone of the wp7 notification system its pretty terrible. I'm still in awe that they did nothing to improve notifications in mangos. I just cannot believe it.
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App

Its personal taste (as someone else said). For me the best notifiactions system came with WebOS, I also like the android system and the WP7 system. I don't like the current ios notifications (on my ipad) but I guess when ios 5 comes (with android style notifications) that will be OK too. For me, the main plus point of WP7 over the other UI's is the simple uncluttered view. I am forever "losing my place" on my ipad screens, it was the same with my Android Desire too.

How can you lose your place when you have dots that tell you what pane you're on?

N8ter said:
How can you lose your place when you have dots that tell you what pane you're on?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Could never remember which pane I had pinned an app on, my eyesight is not brilliant and the small app icons (even on the ipad) are difficult for me to pick out sometimes - like I said though, it is a personal thing.

One thing remind me.
Windows Phone 7 + Apple's Store apps = WIN.
Apps is one of the main reason people choose iPhone.

Strike_Eagle said:
Apps is one of the main reason people choose iPhone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And, unfortunately, one thing that is starting to come out more and more in customer surveys is that most people who own iPhones are reluctant to switch to another platform because of their investment in their apps. Not only have they paid for them, they spent the time to learn how to use them (and let's face it, most apps behave differently on WP7 than they do on iOS, because of the differences in the OS itself).

Yep and developers give ios versions preferential treatment on top of that. Faster feature updates, bug fixes, etc.
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App
EDIT: And this is a big issue since developers do not allow you to transfer licenses you've already bought on one platform to another. With some apps costing $9.99 or more in some cases (really once you get to $4.99 people start feeling locked in if they have to repurchase), this becomes an issue quite quickly.
Bought 10 apps over the span of 2 years on another platform that you use a lot. When you move to another one, you have to repurchase them immediately. You don't get 2 more years to do it, unless you want to cripple your usage patterns for inordinate amounts of time. That can be anywhere from 10 to 100 bucks, more in some cases, right off the bat.

One thing that isn't true with mango anymore, and I love it, is the one to one mapping from app to tile/icon.
Now I only map the content that I care about from apps to my main screen. Even multiple things from one App. Instead of having just huge app Icons.
So for the first time, Tiles start to be really different to being just big App-Icons. They start to be Content-Tiles. It's a huge difference, and something the iPhone right now does not provide.

RoboDad said:
And, unfortunately, one thing that is starting to come out more and more in customer surveys is that most people who own iPhones are reluctant to switch to another platform because of their investment in their apps. Not only have they paid for them, they spent the time to learn how to use them (and let's face it, most apps behave differently on WP7 than they do on iOS, because of the differences in the OS itself).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, i still remember the version of Angry Bird on Android and iOS are free. and we have to pay for it.

N8ter said:
Bought 10 apps over the span of 2 years on another platform that you use a lot. When you move to another one, you have to repurchase them immediately. You don't get 2 more years to do it, unless you want to cripple your usage patterns for inordinate amounts of time. That can be anywhere from 10 to 100 bucks, more in some cases, right off the bat.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's unbelievable how cheap people can get to see this as a problem.

vangrieg said:
It's unbelievable how cheap people can get to see this as a problem.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Most people (as in, the overwhelmingly vast majority) don't have unlimited disposable income. They get their phones on contract, so they can get heavily subsidized prices. Further, most people aren't thrilled at the prospect of paying a second fee for their apps, just to move from one phone platform to another. Purchasing a second license to add a second device would be a different matter, but that is not what we are discussing here. It would be paying an additional fee simply to maintain what they already have. When faced with that choice, most people will stay where they are. It is basic human nature.

So if purchased apps keep someone glued to a platform Microsoft must be betting on getting the lion's share of users coming from a 'non' smartphone; like me.

Unlimited income? We're talking $10-100 here, and since you mention subsidized handsets, "first world" countries. I understand that people don't like paying (twice) but this isn't money we're talking about, it's pocket change.
What a world.

That's the thing, iOS notification on the home screen isn't changing. It will still be static little bubbles. Live tiles could change how they work, what they do and show, they already are animated and double sided and get push notification. And I have mango and some changes on how they work is great to see.
I have my tiles set up like this: phone and alarm tiles on top, messaging and people hub, my personal linked email accounts and then my work, xbox hub with 7 more tiles of the games I am playing, Zune and resco radio, calendar, ie9 and maps, arkwords, weather apps with live tile, and so on. 40 tiles in total, and all of the info I need on one screen that scrolls smoothly. I love it ^_^

All I have to say is that I have purchased Fruit Ninja on ios,iPad ios,windows phone,android,android tablet tegra version. People need to stop being cheap. Plus it's not like if you don't use it, you lose it lol

HTC Sense on wp7 devices...

Will there be an HTC Sense port coming to wp7 soon?

Vukile said:
Will there be an HTC Sense port coming to wp7 soon?
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Click to collapse
No, it will not. Never ever.

not sure why you would even want it anyway. The metro interface is the main feature of WP7. If you want HTC Sense, get a Android or WM6.5 device.
You will never see it on WP7, the closest you will see is the HTC hub app

dkp1977 said:
No, it will not. Never ever.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
you mean, even for HTC devices? I can only look at little blocks on my screen for so long.. Is anyone working on an alternative UI,even if its not embedded?

Vukile said:
you mean, even for HTC devices? I can only look at little blocks on my screen for so long.. Is anyone working on an alternative UI,even if its not embedded?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry, but did you even bother to do some research or at least try Windows Phone before buying the device? OO

Not coming. Gonna have to deal with the tiles.

Vukile said:
you mean, even for HTC devices? I can only look at little blocks on my screen for so long.. Is anyone working on an alternative UI,even if its not embedded?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I will admit, I wish I could customize the tiles/background of homepage a little bit but,that is the advantage of WP7. Your data when you need it and that is the point of the tiles.
If you want to customize the UI, sell your WP7 device and get yourself an Android device. You'll get Sense and every other cusstomization feature you can dream of.
You will NEVER see HTC Sense on WIndows Phone 7

For Microsoft, the Metro UI is what differentiates them from the competition, they are not going to compromise that and allow alternate UIs any time soon, if you dont like Metro please, please do not buy a WP7 device.

Let's hope for a Live title of HTC hub to be a Sense Clock with Weather report

Strike_Eagle said:
Let's hope for a Live title of HTC hub to be a Sense Clock with Weather report
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No. It would still be useless. It's basically that right now, and it's useless in it's current state because of the way Background Tasks work on WP7.
They can only download data every 30 minutes, and when your battery is low some may get shut off.
This is why I can drive 20 minutes through 2 cities at times and the HTC Hub never updates the weather. It does that through a background task data download, because PUSH Notifications on WP7 cannot trigger a background data download. It's why EVERYTHING on WP7 has to refresh when you go into a Hub. Ever notice even the WLM/FB Chat Statuses in Messenger Hub refreshes whenever you go into the HUB, even though you've been getting PUSH Notifications for incoming messages?
Email, People, HTC Hubs do the same thing.
It's also why if you use two devices you'll notice WP7 is monumentally slower at showing updates on it's Me Tile than the C2DM/iOS PUSH Notifications that come in on other platforms. It's cause you don't get them until the Background task does it's think and sees the update. Then, and only then, will the phone display the notification. If you have the Facebook application from Microsoft installed, it's easy to notice this, because the Toasts form that app will arrive a long time before the Me tile flips, unless it came in RIGHT before the background task was due to run.
In order to keep the clock running, the background task would have to be always running, so that the tile could stay in sync with the phone's clock. I am not sure Microsoft is going to let a third party app do that - OEM or not - because of how it can affect battery life. Secondly, in order to update the weather speedily, the background task would have to run significantly more often, becuase WP7 cannot update data through PUSH Notifications like Android can with C2DM. Not even Microsoft's HUBs work like that. They're not gonna make an exception just for HTC or Samsung.
That's precicely the reason why Android Web Marketplace initiates app downloads from the web with C2DM, but WP7 utilizes an encoded SMS to do that.
As WP7 matures, I think the capabilities of PUSH Notifications and Live Tiles alike will improve as well. Right now, they'd have to make too many concessions just for one App/Hub, and it isn't worth it.
It's not going to happen, not in the very near future.
P.S. The above reasons are why some of us want a global Notification Cache. Even for Social updates, the Me Tile is largely useless due to its dependence on a background task that only runs every 30 minutes. Using 3rd party apps that support Toast Notifications (which could theoretically be cached on the device) would result in consistently MUCH faster Notification speeds and a cache will allow you to get to and prioritize them better in the event you're away for the phone for the 10 seconds after the Toast came in

N8ter said:
No. It would still be useless. It's basically that right now, and it's useless in it's current state because of the way Background Tasks work on WP7.
They can only download data every 30 minutes, and when your battery is low some may get shut off.
This is why I can drive 20 minutes through 2 cities at times and the HTC Hub never updates the weather. It does that through a background task data download, because PUSH Notifications on WP7 cannot trigger a background data download. It's why EVERYTHING on WP7 has to refresh when you go into a Hub. Ever notice even the WLM/FB Chat Statuses in Messenger Hub refreshes whenever you go into the HUB, even though you've been getting PUSH Notifications for incoming messages?
Email, People, HTC Hubs do the same thing.
It's also why if you use two devices you'll notice WP7 is monumentally slower at showing updates on it's Me Tile than the C2DM/iOS PUSH Notifications that come in on other platforms. It's cause you don't get them until the Background task does it's think and sees the update. Then, and only then, will the phone display the notification. If you have the Facebook application from Microsoft installed, it's easy to notice this, because the Toasts form that app will arrive a long time before the Me tile flips, unless it came in RIGHT before the background task was due to run.
In order to keep the clock running, the background task would have to be always running, so that the tile could stay in sync with the phone's clock. I am not sure Microsoft is going to let a third party app do that - OEM or not - because of how it can affect battery life. Secondly, in order to update the weather speedily, the background task would have to run significantly more often, becuase WP7 cannot update data through PUSH Notifications like Android can with C2DM. Not even Microsoft's HUBs work like that. They're not gonna make an exception just for HTC or Samsung.
That's precicely the reason why Android Web Marketplace initiates app downloads from the web with C2DM, but WP7 utilizes an encoded SMS to do that.
As WP7 matures, I think the capabilities of PUSH Notifications and Live Tiles alike will improve as well. Right now, they'd have to make too many concessions just for one App/Hub, and it isn't worth it.
It's not going to happen, not in the very near future.
P.S. The above reasons are why some of us want a global Notification Cache. Even for Social updates, the Me Tile is largely useless due to its dependence on a background task that only runs every 30 minutes. Using 3rd party apps that support Toast Notifications (which could theoretically be cached on the device) would result in consistently MUCH faster Notification speeds and a cache will allow you to get to and prioritize them better in the event you're away for the phone for the 10 seconds after the Toast came in
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
my me tile pushes the updates within a reasonable amount of time, so u are wrong again.

Even iPhone was selling different versions of those boring icons,even if you didn't change the UI you could customize it just a tad.. Without the customising,then what will happen to windows?

elcapo24682 said:
my me tile pushes the updates within a reasonable amount of time, so u are wrong again.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm not wrong, I timed it buddy. I'm a bit nerdish about these things, as you could see from the messenger discussions. Obviously, you don't have a clue and you're just guessing.
Stop trying to discuss things you have no flipping clue about.
Me tile notifications are slow as hell. The Facebook app is always minutes faster, often SEVERAL minutes faster due to the way Background tasks work on WP7.
Will do a YouTube video in a day or two. It's late, ATM, and I need someone to help test it out that's on my Facebook Friends list. I'll have iOS/Android/WP7 side by side and show you how slow the PUSH notifications are, as well as how ridiculously slow the Me Tile notifications/flips are.
That should settle that.
See you later.
P.S. I'm publishing the video to YouTube ATM to show the broken notifications in the Message Hub.

Vukile said:
Even iPhone was selling different versions of those boring icons,even if you didn't change the UI you could customize it just a tad.. Without the customising,then what will happen to windows?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nothing, because everyone's needs are different and most of those who have chosen WP7 are not after skins or deep customisation and so will keep on and enjoy using it. If you need to customise your phone, WP7 isnt for you. It just isnt designed for it and beyond changing the background colour between black and white, changing the theme colour and rearranging your tiles you cant do anything else. If you want Sense, more home screens, etc consider another OS. As WP7 is designed allowing OEM's to apply skins completely defeats the purpose.
Dont feel you have to use WP7 if it doesnt suit your needs, just go with what gives you the features you want. Ultimately, that will make your phone experience enjoyable.