Related
I'm not sure of the legal basis for O2 refusing to supply onlock codes (which they have done with me 3 times now, despite others' success), so I have decided to complain to OFCOM.
1) I don't see how they can control what I do with a phone I have bought privately, SIM free on the open market.
2) I have no contract with them, so they cannot bind me to anything. They have tried telling me I can have the unlock code when I have had my PAYG SIM for a year; however, this is nothing to do with the xda. These were two separate transactions. There is no term in my SIM contract relating to a particular phone.
3)the original owner still has a contract with them and is using his SIM in his new phone, thus they are not losing out. Furthermore, by refusing to unlock it they are getting two customers from one contract.
4) It is anti-competitive, as I cannot choose to go to a cheaper network (I want to use T-Mobile for the free voicemail). They could raise their PAYG tariff astronomically, and I would still have to use O2 or my phone would be useless. I am also unable to use a foreign SIM card when abroad, thus am tied in to expensive international calls, with the money going to O2.
5) What would I do if O2 go bust or cease to trade, or fail to get their licence renewed, etc? My phone would be absolutely useless.
Below is the link I have used to register my complaint. If they are inundated with complaints, hoefully they will do something about it.
http://www.ofcom.org.uk/contact_ofcom/general_complaint
Cathy
I guess I am playing Devil's Advocate, but I have to say that I see there point.
Otherwise, ANYONE could buy an XDA2 for just one example, sell it on at a high profit from the subsidisation cost he/she paid/will pay through the contract term, and make a tidy profit there and then, whilst still selling it to you for less than an unlocked SIM free handset from the likes of eBay.
I appreciate your views, BUT, to the letter of the law, UNTIL the original purchaser fulfills his 12 months, its technically not even HIS to sell to you.
Its a grey area, but to the letter of the law, that's the situation.
We ALL know that in reality it doesn't work that way, and we all sell stuff on before the 12 months is up, knowing that we as the original owner are liable to ensure we see out the 12 months.
BUT, in your case however, you are not talking about a day to day ownership, but arguing a point of law because of the difficult situation you are in.
And as I outlined, this is one of the very reasons why, to the letter of the law, its not even meant to pe permissable to even sell it on to you.
It becomes the property of the original purchaser, only at the point he has satisfied his 12 month term, and only then is he really meant to sell it.
We all know this isn't what happens, but it DOES mean we are not in any position to argue law, if we choose to agree to buying it.
Otherwise, i could buy a £120 XDA2 from onestop, with a contract bringing it to £360 all in, over a year, BUT sell it straight on to you now for £400, unopened, sealed, brand new in effect, sim free, and make a tidy profit of £40, AND spread the rest of my repayments to O2, IF they were to then instantly agree to give you the unlock code.
An unlikely scenario to say the least.
(All this of course aside from the fact that the XDA2 can easily be unlocked using any of the tools on this site - including the latest ROM version I beleive - so I am not sure waht the purpose of the post is Cathy - why not just unlock it like I did, to use it on Orange?)
im with you Shadamehr. Why bother complaining when its so easy to unlock it anyway. i unlocked mine without problem using the tools available on this website.
...However, there have also been posts from people who have used the download tools and have then experienced problems. I have the ROM version that requires the hard reset and using bootloader mode, or whatever it is. I am not a computer expert, and I have forund from experience that tampering with things that are at present working is not a good plan. It is very time consuming, and I don't feel competent to deal with any problems that arise.
Cathy said:
I have the ROM version that requires the hard reset and using bootloader mode, or whatever it is. I am not a computer expert, and I have forund from experience that tampering with things that are at present working is not a good plan. It is very time consuming, and I don't feel competent to deal with any problems that arise.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I completely agree with your right and demand to get services in such a case. However, for anyone that does not want to go through the unlock process with the bootloader and hard reset (the 'old' method), I advise you to upgrade. As far as I know all major sellers now provide upgrades. These will also upgrade your radio to version 1.10.x, which is a very much improved radio version. Well worth the upgrade. After that upgrade the simple upgrade tool (the 'new' method) works.
Cathy, I never meant to offend - just to point out the basic premise that on a point of law, you have no legal basis to ask for the unlock code, because to the letter of the law, he had no legal right to even sell you it.
It's a bit hard insisting on an unlock code from the netowrk, for a device that the owner shouldn't even have sold you anyway now is it?
I know we ALL do it QUIETLY, but that doesn't make a whole lot of difference when we need to kick up a fuss and publicise it does it?
But believe me, the Unlock method you refer to, if you have radio stack version 1.05, is REALLY easy enough, and in fact, the LEAST dangerous, in that it isn't actually CHANGING anything unlike the others, as it is only working out what the unlock code is - it doesn't actually unlock it - it only works out the code for you, so it could be argued it's the least intrusive/dangerous.
You then just put another network SIM into the XDA2, so it gives the obvious unathaurised SIM message, and then asks you to enter the unlock code - just exactly the same as if it was supplied by the network.
Failing that, and if you still are unhappy, which I understand, then the new GENUINE, OFFICIAL ROM Upgrade is now available from the O2 UK website.
It's a long process of around an hour all in, but it updates to the latest version whereby you can run a simple unlock tool on the phone to do it all for you.
Hope this is of some use, and if any of us can help more, just ask here...
Thank you...
ahhh, but...
I would contend that although the owner no longer has the phone and has sold it, he is in fact meeting the subsidation requirement by maintaining his contract.
I would also contend or pose the question that what if you broke the phone (by mistake)?
As long as the contract period is still upheld by the original owner, than the provider has no right to hold the unlock code of the now, transferred phone. That's why there are cancellation fees and long-term contracts.
JS
If a locked phone presents a problem for a potential customer then they should, at the outset, request that the phone be unlocked and that your signing the contract depends on this, the reason, if asked, is that you may have to use a 3rd party sim in another country and you dont wish to carry 2 phones, or see why you should.
Re: ahhh, but...
wiredup said:
I would contend that although the owner no longer has the phone and has sold it, he is in fact meeting the subsidation requirement by maintaining his contract.
I would also contend or pose the question that what if you broke the phone (by mistake)?
As long as the contract period is still upheld by the original owner, than the provider has no right to hold the unlock code of the now, transferred phone. That's why there are cancellation fees and long-term contracts.
JS
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Of course there IS mate.
Because under UK law, the network is within the law to with-hold the code to the actual contract holder, never mind the person they re-sold the handset on to. (Save for them charging a 'small' admin fee and supplying you with it IF you pay of the equivalent of the remainder of your contract).
So they are WELL within their rights to do what they are doing.
Let's not forget here, we are talking about heavy subsidisation by the networks towards the original handset.
My XDA2 cost £119. With my contract, that will be still only £360 or even less, all told.
i can't even buy an equivalent Pocket PC itself for that sort of money, never mind something as swanky as an expensive XDA2 that would cost loads more.
This is becuase the network is so heavily subsidising the cost of it.
And yet you expect them just to say "certainly sir/madam, with pleasure" when you ask them for an unlock code part way through your contract?
Er yeah, right.
Put it this way, the day they do, is the day our handsets start costing £400 or even £500 WITH A CONTRACT.
Let's be real folks!
Again, im with u Shadamehr :wink: . The networks have every right to deny you the unlock code as technically it is still their phone until the contract is fully paid as the handset is heavily subsidised. the networks would lose a lot if the phone was unlocked out of the box or they gave the code away before the contract was up. As i said previously, why bother complaining to them when there are tools available on this website for unlocking the phone , pre and post update. it is just a waste of time and energy when u can have the code in less time than it would take to get through to them to explain to them why they should giv u the code. im not a phone techy but i followed the instructions on the pre update tool and it worked without problem giving me the code. i put my old Vodafone SIM in and entered the code the tool gave me. it worked without a problem . they obviously arent giving you the code Cathy, so cheat like the rest of us :wink: .
Re: ahhh, but...
Shadamehr said:
wiredup said:
I would contend that although the owner no longer has the phone and has sold it, he is in fact meeting the subsidation requirement by maintaining his contract.
I would also contend or pose the question that what if you broke the phone (by mistake)?
As long as the contract period is still upheld by the original owner, than the provider has no right to hold the unlock code of the now, transferred phone. That's why there are cancellation fees and long-term contracts.
JS
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Of course there IS mate.
Because under UK law, the network is within the law to with-hold the code to the actual contract holder, never mind the person they re-sold the handset on to. (Save for them charging a 'small' admin fee and supplying you with it IF you pay of the equivalent of the remainder of your contract).
So they are WELL within their rights to do what they are doing.
Let's not forget here, we are talking about heavy subsidisation by the networks towards the original handset.
My XDA2 cost £119. With my contract, that will be still only £360 or even less, all told.
i can't even buy an equivalent Pocket PC itself for that sort of money, never mind something as swanky as an expensive XDA2 that would cost loads more.
This is becuase the network is so heavily subsidising the cost of it.
And yet you expect them just to say "certainly sir/madam, with pleasure" when you ask them for an unlock code part way through your contract?
Er yeah, right.
Put it this way, the day they do, is the day our handsets start costing £400 or even £500 WITH A CONTRACT.
Let's be real folks!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Shadamehr,
Clearly you do not understand. Let's suppose: As you stated, the phone would normally be 360, but since the network subsidize the phone, they sell it for 199. Fair enough. I know I am responsible for a contract term of 1 year. Done.
I have later sold the phone after just 3 months. I am STILL responsible for the one year contract... still paying back their "subsidation!" So, what the BIG deal whether I still own the phone or not--the contract obligations are still being met!... own the phone or not.
Like I said before, WHAT IF I broke the phone? What's the difference, I am still obligated to continue the contract--phone or no phone! AND, they still get their SUBSIDATION!
Geez... and, it's no different in USA!
Don't be so bloody stupid.
No one ever said it doesn't HAPPEN. Or are you blind?
What I CLEARLY said is that just because it goes on, unspoken, quite regular, doesn't help one little bit when it comes to wanting an unlock code from the network provider within year one.
May I suggest you re-read my post again?
And PLEASE - if you are in the USA, dont make the mistake of assuming that things must automatically be the same.
If you buy a car on H.P. (slightly different, admittedly), then you CANNOT automatically sell that car on in the UK, if you are still paying back the H.P. on it, and to do so can be illegal. That is a simple given fact that most people in the UK know about - so please don't assume for one second that things have to be the same.
If you want to settle this definitively, then feel free to ring OFCOM, and then post your response here for us to share. But I offer you don't need to, as I already posted what the situation is in the UK.
Besides, let me end by saying as LOUD as I can, as you seem to have missed it...
The day that the networks start giving out Unlock codes within the first 12 months, is the day our handsets suddenly cost 100% more money to obtain, even WITH a contract included.
YOU might want that mate...
But us sensible sorts in the rest of the world surely DON'T want to see an average cost increase of at least £100 on an XDA2 for example, just to cover those people who want an unlock code from the start.
There is a method already in existance for getting a phone network free...
It's called BUYING SIM FREE/UNLOCKED. And if you are going to tell me that it costs MUCH MORE to buy it that way, as opposed to on a contract, now why on earth might that be I wonder... now let me think...?
Oh dear me - not because on contract the networks heavily subsidise them by any chance - well there you go - would you look at that!
Sorry for being flippant, but isn't that what I already said in my post, and I now find I am repeating it here...
(And as an EDIT to this post, as I realised it hasn't sufficiently covered your post, let me remind you that one little detail - no matter whether you DO continue to pay your bills in respect of it, as the original owner. UNTIL the subsidisation period is met, even with you still happily paying for a phone you sold, then the networks do not give out the unlock code, and are within their rights under UK law to do so - so your argument has no merit, or productive outcome anyway - it doesn't make a jot of difference to the new owner anyway, until YOU have paid your 12 months - which is also covered in my post).
Shadamehr said:
Don't be so bloody stupid.
No one ever said it doesn't HAPPEN. Or are you blind?
What I CLEARLY said is that just because it goes on, unspoken, quite regular, doesn't help one little bit when it comes to wanting an unlock code from the network provider within year one.
May I suggest you re-read my post again?
And PLEASE - if you are in the USA, dont make the mistake of assuming that things must automatically be the same.
If you buy a car on H.P. (slightly different, admittedly), then you CANNOT automatically sell that car on in the UK, if you are still paying back the H.P. on it, and to do so can be illegal. That is a simple given fact that most people in the UK know about - so please don't assume for one second that things have to be the same.
If you want to settle this definitively, then feel free to ring OFCOM, and then post your response here for us to share. But I offer you don't need to, as I already posted what the situation is in the UK.
Besides, let me end by saying as LOUD as I can, as you seem to have missed it...
The day that the networks start giving out Unlock codes within the first 12 months, is the day our handsets suddenly cost 100% more money to obtain, even WITH a contract included.
YOU might want that mate...
But us sensible sorts in the rest of the world surely DON'T want to see an average cost increase of at least £100 on an XDA2 for example, just to cover those people who want an unlock code from the start.
There is a method already in existance for getting a phone network free...
It's called BUYING SIM FREE/UNLOCKED. And if you are going to tell me that it costs MUCH MORE to buy it that way, as opposed to on a contract, now why on earth might that be I wonder... now let me think...?
Oh dear me - not because on contract the networks heavily subsidise them by any chance - well there you go - would you look at that!
Sorry for being flippant, but isn't that what I already said in my post, and I now find I am repeating it here...
(And as an EDIT to this post, as I realised it hasn't sufficiently covered your post, let me remind you that one little detail - no matter whether you DO continue to pay your bills in respect of it, as the original owner. UNTIL the subsidisation period is met, even with you still happily paying for a phone you sold, then the networks do not give out the unlock code, and are within their rights under UK law to do so - so your argument has no merit, or productive outcome anyway - it doesn't make a jot of difference to the new owner anyway, until YOU have paid your 12 months - which is also covered in my post).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The debate was a discussion of whether network should indeed allow unlock codes to be made available before the contract term--of which I replied.
My comments addressed your arrogant, definitive statements surrounding why carriers do not release unlock codes. That is, and what you believe to be, a dependency between contracts and subsidation. However, my opinion was simply the two are mutually exclusive.
Law is the law. While you might prefer subsidation and being locked into a carrier, others may prefer the contractless freedom--of which, some are available.
In addition, I think your condescending, rude and utterly poor communication skills are of an entirely new thread. I suggest a filter between your brain and keyboard as clearly your intuition to write without consideration is overwhelmingly powerful.
It is simply a discussion.
Best regards,
JS
Mmm - I've spent seven years as a die hard internet user, from forums, to newsgroups, to chat rooms and all in between.
I learned a LONG time ago, that the rudest, most arrogant and obnoxious posters are never the brainless ones, but rather, just like you so emphatically prove, the ones that try and hide their attacks behind smooth words, and flowing language.
Consequently, I'll grant you one thing mate... You probably the rudest and most offensive to post to me, in a wee while.
Another thing I learned a long time ago, is not to bother arguing.
I will simply say, the post, the entire thread, is there for all to see, and more importantly, all to judge as they see fit.
Whilst I have no reservation in saying this thread is indeed one of my more flippant posts, compared to the help I try and chip in with round here, I have no suspicions whatsoever that I will be the one judged to be the perpertrator round here - after all, I merely pointed things out. Its not MY fault that you don't LIKE what I had to report. Hey, I never even said that I LIKED it either - I'm merely messenger, pointing out a few home truths.
And not letting you get away with it that easily, I would just remind you that once again, if people DO wish to prevail themselves of a handset that is NOT network locked, the facility already exists for them to do so, and its called BUYING SIM FREE.
Or did you miss that yet again.
Making it as clear as possible for you, in case you haven't worked out yet that I have NO reason to defend the networks per se, nevertheless mate, if a Network heavily subsidises a handset, provided you agree to stick with them 12 months, not tariff change until after 4 (or 6) months, and not get an unlock code until after the twelve months, then it couldn't be simpler mate...
You either take it, or you leave it.
But if you go into it with open eyes, as you surely should, then you have no right, or place, or reason, to later post in here that you think its unfair that the network won't give you an unlock code in the first twelve months.
If you don't like that idea, you DON'T take out the contract mate.
ITS THAT SIMPLE.
And if you want to, you can then buy a SIM FREE handset.
But please, don't complain about the cost being too high then. Of course it is - that is the REAL price.
The price you are used to, on contract, is a heavily subsidised one, available to you provided you AGREE to certain conditions etc.
Note that word "agree". Because it means that once you accept it, then there is little point or purpose to whingeing on later, about something that you, as a consumer, of your own volition and free will, AGREED to.
Now please, my Email address should be in my profile.
If you want to flame me or troll me anymore - by all means do so by Email, and keep your incesant ramblings OFF this board.
Like I said - both our comments are there for all to see.
More importantly, they are there for others to judge.
I'm more than happy to let the members judge me.
I trust you are the same.
Now leave it please. (Or rather, troll and flame me as much as you feel the need to, but use my email in future instead of boring everyone else in this forum).
Shadamehr said:
Mmm - I've spent seven years as a die hard internet user, from forums, to newsgroups, to chat rooms and all in between.
I learned a LONG time ago, that the rudest, most arrogant and obnoxious posters are never the brainless ones, but rather, just like you so emphatically prove, the ones that try and hide their attacks behind smooth words, and flowing language.
Consequently, I'll grant you one thing mate... You probably the rudest and most offensive to post to me, in a wee while.
Another thing I learned a long time ago, is not to bother arguing.
I will simply say, the post, the entire thread, is there for all to see, and more importantly, all to judge as they see fit.
Whilst I have no reservation in saying this thread is indeed one of my more flippant posts, compared to the help I try and chip in with round here, I have no suspicions whatsoever that I will be the one judged to be the perpertrator round here - after all, I merely pointed things out. Its not MY fault that you don't LIKE what I had to report. Hey, I never even said that I LIKED it either - I'm merely messenger, pointing out a few home truths.
And not letting you get away with it that easily, I would just remind you that once again, if people DO wish to prevail themselves of a handset that is NOT network locked, the facility already exists for them to do so, and its called BUYING SIM FREE.
Or did you miss that yet again.
Making it as clear as possible for you, in case you haven't worked out yet that I have NO reason to defend the networks per se, nevertheless mate, if a Network heavily subsidises a handset, provided you agree to stick with them 12 months, not tariff change until after 4 (or 6) months, and not get an unlock code until after the twelve months, then it couldn't be simpler mate...
You either take it, or you leave it.
But if you go into it with open eyes, as you surely should, then you have no right, or place, or reason, to later post in here that you think its unfair that the network won't give you an unlock code in the first twelve months.
If you don't like that idea, you DON'T take out the contract mate.
ITS THAT SIMPLE.
And if you want to, you can then buy a SIM FREE handset.
But please, don't complain about the cost being too high then. Of course it is - that is the REAL price.
The price you are used to, on contract, is a heavily subsidised one, available to you provided you AGREE to certain conditions etc.
Note that word "agree". Because it means that once you accept it, then there is little point or purpose to whingeing on later, about something that you, as a consumer, of your own volition and free will, AGREED to.
Now please, my Email address should be in my profile.
If you want to flame me or troll me anymore - by all means do so by Email, and keep your incesant ramblings OFF this board.
Like I said - both our comments are there for all to see.
More importantly, they are there for others to judge.
I'm more than happy to let the members judge me.
I trust you are the same.
Now leave it please. (Or rather, troll and flame me as much as you feel the need to, but use my email in future instead of boring everyone else in this forum).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Mr. Shadamehr,
Please don't patronize me with your comments like, "If you want to flame me or troll me anymore - by all means do so by Email, and keep your incesant ramblings OFF this board." If you review your postings above, it is your posts that "ramble" (i.e. are the longest!)
Last time I checked, freedom of speech is well within the bounds of this board. Your decisive statements, most of which are opinion-driven, are your position only. I'm not sure anyone complained of the cost of the PDA's--if you review the posts, no one actually did. I have plenty of income, so cost isn't an issue for me... so, why would you assume it does?
And, may I say, that this conversation will last as long as it needs to; again, isn't freedom awesome?
All I'm saying is: we agree law is the law. The debate lies in whether it is fair or not (personal opinions); as consumers, we have the ability to persuade the industry.
I'll refrain from the "are you STUPID mate?," "Or did you miss that yet again" statements as they are useless, condescending remarks that provide no value to the debate.
At what point do you believe you're more intelligent than the rest of us?
JS
Freedom of speech is indeed a truly wonderful thing.
But YOU were the one that said:
"In addition, I think your condescending, rude and utterly poor communication skills are of an entirely new thread."
Implying this should be kept well off the board, or at least, THIS thread!
But NOW you are saying:
"And, may I say, that this conversation will last as long as it needs to; again, isn't freedom awesome? "
I'm sorry, there's not a lot I or anyone else can do to help you, if you yourself are unsure as to what you want, and change your mind to suit, as and when you feel like it.
This whole thread was about Networks with-holding the Unlock code within the first twelve months.
I have just CHECKED again, and my first post on this topic, was an indication of the current position, based on my OWN issues I had, just like Cathy, and what OFTEL (as it was then), informed me was the law, and the issues around it.
I posted that information here, and as such, was only the messenger for what I am all too aware is unpopular knowledge. Nevertheless, I was nothing more than messenger.
Because that information was not popular reading however, you took it on board to somewhat hold me to blame, or at very least to turn the argument around onto me.
Suit yourself.
I end, after having demonstrated how you blow hot and cold in the same debate (a frightening quality indeed), simply by referring the Learned Gentleman to my last post, where I said:
"The members, ultimately will decide who they feel is right, and who is in the wrong..." (or similar)...
And in that respect nothing has changed.
Now, finally, you DID originally say you wanted this kept off the board, so I implore you to do so now.
But of course, you being you, you later contradicted yourself by then saying you will keep this going as long as you want, so I doubt you will leave it now.
Funny how you change your mind to suit yourself best.
But give the matter thought, because I really can't be bothered. You see:
"I learned a long time ago never to argue overly long with fools. All they ever do is bring you down to THEIR level, and of course once they manage that, they then go on to beat you with their vast experience over you they have in that role..."
And in an effort to reach closure, can I make something clear where your WHOLE debate is wrong...?
You say:
"All I'm saying is: we agree law is the law. The debate lies in whether it is fair or not (personal opinions); as consumers, we have the ability to persuade the industry."
Forgive me for completely correcting you...
This is Cathy's post.
And she called it:
"Are O2 acting legally in with-holding the unlock code"
Clear as day, a question on whether the issue was legallly correct or not. Nothing at all, as you seek to save grace by now implying, about the relative morals of it. I can't even see where that aspect creeps in other than your OWN posts.
And my response, pointing out the LEGAL position, was thus therefore a completely correct, and completely appropriate response to her thread.
You are therefore completely incorrect in saying this is a thread about the MORALS of it - it was a CLEAR question on the LEGALITIES of it.
If you wish to have a moral debate about the relative rights or wrongs of the netoworks doing this, then I would be HAPPY to join you in such a debate.
But as this would be a NEW aspect, then I would expect an apology from you (which there is no chance I will get), for you completely having wrongly judged me, by saying this debate was already one about morals.
It isn't - please read Cathy's title again.
My response to her, that you so deride and find worthy of argument, was thus totally appropriate - she asked if O2 were acting LEGALLY (it's in the title).
I replied explaining that they were - from my own experinces with OFTEL.
I trust, and I mean this fairly and not conflictory, that you now realise that I had done noting wrong. This was NOT a debate, as you so keep saying, about the MORALS of it.
That post would be entitled:
"Are O2 acting immorally or unreasonably by with-holding the unlock code"
And in that post, your comments would be far more correct then, and appropriate, and I couldn't fault them half as much.
But, er, this is NOT that thread though.
This is the "Are O2 acting LEGALLY..." one.
Sorry for keep repeating it.
Well, that gave me a laugh during lunch time....
hello lads, wish everybody is fine and doin well, ive been doing some intelligence and detective work around around the weired fact that IMEI check are the only guyz around with an unlock solution for the UNIVERSAL.
what i accumilated was kindda weired. according to information gathered from this website and specially from my favourite two super stars (BUZZ lightyear and Mchinegod) those legendary stars got it all fine lolll.
what i found is.
IMEI check has some source in HTC inovations in taiwan.
this source has probably supplied em classified Hardware Software information on how to unlock the Universal.
second speculation is that they also has a source that has unrestricted acess to the IMEI-Unlock code database. and he supplies them the assigned codes for some percentage from every unlock they make.
in both cases there is an insider who must ve supplied critical info on raming this device into the corners.
just for the info, i mentioned before that i had a weired problem and that is i wanted to unlock my MDA pro and T-mobile the netherlands told me that my IMEI doesnt exist in thier database or its not a T-mobile universal varient. however i managed my way in contacting someone in HTC and my honest source tracked my IMEI back to T-mobile the netherlands, i offered this source paying him money to gimme the unlock code but he refused in great honesty and said, the entire HTC cant supply me these codes not for free not for a fee, acoording to a business agreement with the T-Mobile. after a while, i got an email from T-Mobile telling me that they have my Unlock code right now and they are ready to supply me the code for like 70 euros or something,,
that shows that there are some leaks around between HTC and its business partners and, our freiends at IMEI check, has foudn some way to access these leaks and make some money.
wish i explained my theory
best regards
shady
why dont they offer then an online unlock... you send them imei number and money... they send you unlock code....
there is an other way they do it
€70 is much less than I was first asked for to have an Unlock code. It was more like €175, and that was for a little Samsung phone before T-Mobile took over One2One.
After you've been using the device for 1 year, your first year contract is finished. After this first year contract, the Universal belongs to you - NOT T-Mobile - and you are therefore legally entitled to do anything you want to with it, including unlocking it. T-Mobile CANNOT legally deny you this right - if they could, the central IMEI databases which disallow network access from stolen devices would simply disallow access to other networks from your IMEI.
thas exactly the point
asking for physical acess to the machine while still sayint that they will not open it and hat all stuff will be made through cable. sooo i think this provides perfect diversion.
Yeah, I think I said in an earlier post that the whole thing about 'sending your Universal in because physical access is required' is a load of bullcrap. It's as shady said, they have an insider at HTC which really makes me question the ethics of their dealings in the first place. I don't think I like these guys very much.
I think you forgot something US (imei-check):
We killed JFK, we are green and we come from Mars. Somewhere on other forum I saw that someone says that we like to collect the MDA PRO's. Yes we love to swim in them . We are aliens and we like that.
These declarations are as true as your conspiracy theory.
WE HAVE NO connection with HTC or any other manufacture or operator. We are just a bunch of programmers which like to work till late not to stay and see if anyone comes with anything for free for us.
This forum should be called Warez and freeware searchers since here all you can read is where to download such software and were to get such thing for free. Only a handful of people from here does developing, rest just a bunch of beggars (sorry for the previos spelling mistake, but hey I'm not a native speaker ).
Florin Mandache
Director of MIGsofT LTD (imei-check.co.uk)
Imei Check
I resent your comments regarding the rest of us no-hopers being 'baggers'.
If it wasn't for forums like this you guys wouldn't have any business cos the vast majority of us would have returned our pda phones due to lack of network support.
I have no qualms paying for unlocking but the networks take the mick by making you wait weeks for the unlock codes.
I dare say you guys have learnt from this forum and if you didnt charge 50 squid for a universal unlock code you would get more respect.
We all have a part to play mate so just remember this:
Without consumers(or baggers as you like to call us) you would have to latch onto somting else so give us a break !!!
i vote with jonboy. if u dont respect this forum why are you on it,,, i have no idea actually + if you think my claims are wrong, there is no need to insult all of us, my friend the way you answered is a hard proof that at least some of my claims have taken a byte at the neck of the truth.
anyway thanks for calling us baggers, but again as jonboy says, these baggers are the guyz making business for you and giving you money. so i wont call em baggers cuz if its not for them you would ve been a bagger.
you IMEI guyz are asking for astaggering 74 E to unlock well i have to mention that T-mobile unlocked my MDA pro for 70 euros which is still 4euros less than what you asked + i dotn have to send it all the way to another country or stuff.
again thanks dear brother for insulting the forum and its people.
best regards
shady
florin_m said:
I think you forgot something US (imei-check):
We killed JFK, we are green and we come from Mars. Somewhere on other forum I saw that someone says that we like to collect the MDA PRO's. Yes we love to swim in them . We are aliens and we like that.
These declarations are as true as your conspiracy theory.
WE HAVE NO connection with HTC or any other manufacture or operator. We are just a bunch of programmers which like to work till late not to stay and see if anyone comes with anything for free for us.
This forum should be called Warez and freeware searchers since here all you can read is where to download such software and were to get such thing for free. Only a handful of people from here does developing, rest just a bunch of beggars (sorry for the previos spelling mistake, but hey I'm not a native speaker ).
Florin Mandache
Director of MIGsofT LTD (imei-check.co.uk)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Florin, you are a fool.
'nuff said.
florin_m said:
I think you forgot something US (imei-check):
We killed JFK, we are green and we come from Mars. Somewhere on other forum I saw that someone says that we like to collect the MDA PRO's. Yes we love to swim in them . We are aliens and we like that.
Florin Mandache
Director of MIGsofT LTD (imei-check.co.uk)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Are you really who you say you are? If you are, you must be about ten years old because that statement is so immature, not fit for a grown mature adult.
BTW, where are all the warez on this site? I haven't seen any, or am I just blind, naive or both? We all visit this forum so that we can "hack" some the system parameters of our devices to enhance them and give them "personalities" we like or prefer to have.
actually, i think this florin is just a very erogant man, i still am feeling offended that he called us beggers. do everybody really has to be a developer. well mr wiered headless brainless, when u go to a Dr to take out the permenant disease out of your head do u become a begger, when you go to psyciatrist to take the wiered erogance of your soul do u become a begger, so if you think that when u go to a pro that well help you get rid of all of these wiered stuff in your miniature nature that will make you a bagger, then we might also be considered bagger. and by the way plz when u speak to people again try to get first some schooling second learn some ethics
again lads, just think deeply if our ideas on this forum about how IMEI check got thier hands on the unlocking codes are wrong, what would piss thier boss off, hehehe if someone said soemthing thas not right about me i wouldnt really start a fight on someones wrong calims, but if he uncovered my business then ill fight to recover it back, even by insulting people heheh
best regards
shady
shadykw said:
my friend the way you answered is a hard proof that at least some of my claims have taken a byte at the neck of the truth.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
you lost me here - why you are so sure you are right just because someone responded to you? No offence, but what you said is questionable in the first place... and i simply cannot understand what has the pricing got to do with this? it can be 100 euros - so what?? WHY are you so unhappy?
and generally he was right, most people do not produce anything new for the device, the max we do is copy-paste. Its the truth - why are you complaining - what have you done?
btw, i have got nothing to do with them, never used the service and do not know anyone there in any way... so that you will not say i am from their company too, just because i have a different opinion to yours. And it will not prove that you are 100% right - i hope this is clear at least.
im sorry guyz, i aint no dectaort here and ieve never said im right i just speculated some stuff, and to be honest as i said, i have no proof, its just speculation, and im not complaining about the price the market is open, u dont like someones service, take another. and i have no offense against anybody as well i havent attacked him, it was just someone that began attacking all the forum not me only. and again, im not so sure and im not running an invistigation here buddy, and im usually dotn speak so much here in the forum, but i just dotn wanna get kicked whenever im gonna say soemthing someone is gonan call me a bagger. and yes not everybody is doign something cuz so simply not everybody is a developer, does the fact that im in another field rather than IT or software development must make me shut up and not even talk.
well guyz im sorry anyway if i attacked any body or offended anyone without intentions
again im sorry for that
best regards
shady
igs said:
shadykw said:
my friend the way you answered is a hard proof that at least some of my claims have taken a byte at the neck of the truth.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
you lost me here - why you are so sure you are right just because someone responded to you? No offence, but what you said is questionable in the first place... and i simply cannot understand what has the pricing got to do with this? it can be 100 euros - so what?? WHY are you so unhappy?
and generally he was right, most people do not produce anything new for the device, the max we do is copy-paste. Its the truth - why are you complaining - what have you done?
btw, i have got nothing to do with them, never used the service and do not know anyone there in any way... so that you will not say i am from their company too, just because i have a different opinion to yours. And it will not prove that you are 100% right - i hope this is clear at least.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
well said that man
The rest of you n00b-muppets need to shut the hell up. I've known Florin for quite some time now and back in the early days he was of great help to the Windows Mobile community and still is today. To be quite honest, he's right, the majority of you are all beggers. You all want something for nothing. Why should someone break their back to make YOU happy? What have YOU done for the community? Why should anyone spend their precious time helping YOU when all YOU do is leech information?
You want the "truth" behind imei-check? They spend alot of time working on devices to get them unlocked. Sometimes they kill the devices. Said devices cost money. Then when all the hard work is over and they start to earn a reward from their work, some jumped up little prick decides to reverse engineer the software and sell it on ebay. Thats why you have to send Universal's in to them.
I would like to react to this
that shows that there are some leaks around between HTC and its business partners and, our freiends at IMEI check, has foudn some way to access these leaks and make some money.
And please do not take this like "racism" or anything else.
HTC is a Taiwanese Company POINT ! In Taiwan China Korea (Much difficult in Japan) Money is the most important thing ! I was living Before in HK, and has often be oblige to deal with the mainland but the things is that Money can buy anything over there or allow you a lot of things. I had last year a "Weird" problem with a Taiwanese PC, Pocket PC, smartphone manufacturer. Well I was dealing for a potential of 300 Units (PC) and things were going well at the begning until... they bypass me and contacted my client to make business with them.
This is how things work there and will always work.
If you take for example Korea... nobody follow any contract, in Fact in business matter it works like this, you firs sign the contract, and then you discuss about the term of the contract. If for example you want to "punish" a Korean company you just has to force them to follow a contract (this is the worst punition for them)
Once again, there are no racism in my story I am living in Asia since a long time now, my wife is Korean/Japanese and I had the chance to live, before I met my wife, with a Chinese lady (Be quiet on this one ok )
Absolute bollocks :roll:
Did you even read the rest of the posts here or did you just read the first one and reply straight away?
How exactly does this show that there are leaks? Where's your proof? One dumbass hatches a theory and you take it as gospel :roll:
nedge2k said:
Absolute bollocks :roll:
Did you even read the rest of the posts here or did you just read the first one and reply straight away?
How exactly does this show that there are leaks? Where's your proof? One dumbass hatches a theory and you take it as gospel :roll:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just share experience, that all
hey guyz, again ive said there is no proof these are just speculations, and again im not a damn developer, as far as i remeber ihavent insulted anyone, would you plz choose a better language describing the people on this forum,, if you think that we are all beggars, fine dont be around us, but plz just stop this insulting. and why are my words so painfull, i just said what i though nothing more. specially that in various threads in this forum, some guyz managed to get the codes from HTC so im not totally inventing a story, i think prooving me wrong would be much easier that saying all of this, jesus why is insulting so easy
florin_m
A year ago i unlocked more than 20 phones (s100 and 9090) with imei-check's help so don't say we all beggars here.
Would there be an online service soon to unlock the MDA-PRO? Because sending your MDA to England isn't accepltable for everyone and i really need to use the service quite often.
@florin_m
hi florin,
i seriously doubt, that you've programmed an unlocker for Universal, just few days after it was released to the market.
Either you have/had:
1. engineering prototypes with certain bootloader functions opened
2. access to special service SD cards
3. bootloader passwords
4. access to IMEI/lock database
i'd say 2. or 4. is right
BTW, why do you call your company IMEI-CHECK?
Wouldn't it be more apropriate to call it unlock-programming ?
IMEI-CHECK is invoking a vision of checking IMEI against a list or such...
buzz
Ok I know when you buy a computer and if say you don't want Windows on it and its preinstalled you can deny the terms and conditions, and Microsoft will refund you the amount of money that windows cost.
Now using that same theory if I wright a letter to HTC saying I don't agree to there terms and conditions, than wouldn't they then have to either supply me with a stock Android Rom minus there software, or provide me with a way to remove there software, by either giving me a way to load my own Rom built from source, or give me access to system partition to remove the said software.(see were I am going with this)
Anyway if someone with some legal knowledge could school me a little bit that would be great. Thanks.
Yes this will work. This is great..... FOR ME TO POOP ON!
binny1007 said:
Ok I know when you buy a computer and if say you don't want Windows on it and its preinstalled you can deny the terms and conditions, and Microsoft will refund you the amount of money that windows cost.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ummm, no? Did you dream this? Does Microsoft sell computers?
Ummm..... that is not true maybe you should not post if have nothing relevant to say, by the way here is some reading for you.
Http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_refund
Now back on topic
Calling in the Suits
Does the Incredible have an EULA on first boot? I am still waiting for mine so I cannot say, but I would assume when you sign up with Verizon, such rights are waved (esp. after the 30-day return period). I would assume the most they would do for you would be similar to Microsoft and give you a rebate in exchange for the device.
However, these are all assumptions on my part. I am friends with a lawyer who used to represent Olga.net (On-line Guitar Archives) when I worked with them. He managed to fend off the NMPA (kind of the music version of the MPAA) and MPA (a sister organization to the RIAA; focuses on publishing rights) for many years. Really the only reason OLGA is not running now is the admin providing the resources was told by his employer that they were no longer going to support the site once the take-down notices started to flood in and the words "possible lawsuit" were whispered.
I'll get in contact with him and post (possibly PM only) his reply, but you might also want to try and get in contact with someone at the EFF (Electronic Frontier Foundation), as this sounds right up their alley.
Yes on first boot you are asked to accept the EULA.
I think you are out of luck.
The phone is a phone first, a computer second. You can't buy the phone without the OS in it because Verizon won't allow a phone device that has not been approved on their network.
You didn't buy the phone from HTC, you bought it from Verizon. So any dispute with what you purchased is with Verizon, not HTC (Ie you can't buy the phone from HTC direct).
If you don't like Sense UI, don't buy a phone that comes with it. Your recourse which you had from the very beginning was to return the phone.
Not a lawyer...
I love sense but I'm just looking for some options.
I'll give you $1,000,000 if you actually do this. Why? Because it will never happen. No offense, but are you truly serious or are you really really high? Do you think if I bought a video game, I could decline the license agreement and demand they provide me the source code or something? Krelvin is trying to talk some sense into you, so listen to him. Just be patient and wait for root. It will happen soon enough.
Why didn't you just buy a phone with an android os without sense. ??
Verizon will just tell you to **** off. HTC isn't going to give you root access just because you deny the terms of service... Give it a shot though!
Just wait for Root...or return the phone and get a different one.
There, done deal.
binny1007 said:
I love sense but I'm just looking for some options.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I just installed Launcher2 from Cyanogen 5.0.7 and said bye bye sense
binny1007 said:
Ok I know when you buy a computer and if say you don't want Windows on it and its preinstalled you can deny the terms and conditions, and Microsoft will refund you the amount of money that windows cost.
Now using that same theory if I wright a letter to HTC saying I don't agree to there terms and conditions, than wouldn't they then have to either supply me with a stock Android Rom minus there software, or provide me with a way to remove there software, by either giving me a way to load my own Rom built from source, or give me access to system partition to remove the said software.(see were I am going with this)
Anyway if someone with some legal knowledge could school me a little bit that would be great. Thanks.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
flash your own rom. nobody stopped you.
Come on guys, give binny a little bit of respect on this, he isn't a n00b to the Android world and he doesn't dislike HTC or Sense, he is just thinking of possible ways for us Incredible users to get root. I did run this by my lawyer friend though and he basically repeated the line a few people have come up with (that it's really Verizon that you would have to deal with and it's highly unlikely that for any reason you would be able to force their hand).
However if you still want to pursue this, I am still recommending the EFF. To start a new "action" you can sign up here.
Didn't mean to come off as such an a-hole as I was kinda irritated that day ahha.
but anyways, if he can accomplish this (which is highly unlikely), I'll give him all kinds of props.
If he's willing to go through with it, by all means do it...but like others have stated, Verizon will most likely be quite unwilling...
DeeBG said:
Come on guys, give binny a little bit of respect on this, he isn't a n00b to the Android world and he doesn't dislike HTC or Sense, he is just thinking of possible ways for us Incredible users to get root. I did run this by my lawyer friend though and he basically repeated the line a few people have come up with (that it's really Verizon that you would have to deal with and it's highly unlikely that for any reason you would be able to force their hand).
However if you still want to pursue this, I am still recommending the EFF. To start a new "action" you can sign up here.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm not being disrespectful. I am being real. Binny is in dreamland if he thinks this will help/work/not be a waste of time. And no offense, but your lawyer friend didn't do that website much good as they are still shutdown, and if he successfully "fended" anyone off the website would be up and running, not shutdown with a notice about legal issues.
binny1007 said:
Ok I know when you buy a computer and if say you don't want Windows on it and its preinstalled you can deny the terms and conditions, and Microsoft will refund you the amount of money that windows cost.
Now using that same theory if I wright a letter to HTC saying I don't agree to there terms and conditions, than wouldn't they then have to either supply me with a stock Android Rom minus there software, or provide me with a way to remove there software, by either giving me a way to load my own Rom built from source, or give me access to system partition to remove the said software.(see were I am going with this)
Anyway if someone with some legal knowledge could school me a little bit that would be great. Thanks.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's just that... figure this out before worrying about taking on EULA laws and the like.
there is not there, it is their, as well as than is not than it is then
I'm too uninterested to correct the rest of your grammar.
Thank you so much for correcting my grammar it was soooooo nice of you.
And I will make this clear my complaint would not be with VZW as they had no hand in anything software wise. I'm not going to feed into the trolls here. So please I ask if you have nothing productive to say than don't say it. There are 3 licenses that you are accepting, HTC's, Google's, and the open source licensing, if you accept the two of them and not HTC's than you should still be able to use you phone. That's the point I am trying to make here but thanks to everyone who felt the need to comment on this, and had nothing useful to say.
5377henry said:
It's just that... figure this out before worrying about taking on EULA laws and the like.
there is not there, it is their, as well as than is not than it is then
I'm too uninterested to correct the rest of your grammar.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
WOW! your first post just to act like a butt.
seriously whats with all the snarly remarks people? binny asked a very straight forward question. to all those saying "get a different phone" verizon doesn't offer comparable android phone without sense, or "flash you're (thats for you 5377henry) own rom" we don't have root, hence the whole point of the question/thread.
anywho, i did not even know you could do that with windows, thanks for the info binny.
i have a feeling we would attain root before something like this could be played out through htc. i am baffled that they cut the option to go to regular android. not that i hate sense, i just like options...
MrGoodCat said:
WOW! your first post just to act like a butt.
seriously whats with all the snarly remarks people? binny asked a very straight forward question. to all those saying "get a different phone" verizon doesn't offer comparable android phone without sense, or "flash you're (thats for you 5377henry) own rom" we don't have root, hence the whole point of the question/thread.
anywho, i did not even know you could do that with windows, thanks for the info binny.
i have a feeling we would attain root before something like this could be played out through htc. i am baffled that they cut the option to go to regular android. not that i hate sense, i just like options...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Lots of people don't know that you can do that with Windows. Witch is why I thought I would ask. I just don't know the legal aspect of it.
Please see the full thread here:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=735830
But this sums up where this project is at:
----
ok guys.. some bad news.. Talked with Matt2 on a business level and after i went over some figures with him, my calculations were so far off.. i should be on mars..
The break even point for this project is 275+/- 10/12 extras.
I have been saying 150 and I am not sure where I got that unless I was not calculating the shipping since I did free shipping.
We are at 129 at the time of writing this.
So here is my question, I have always said, I will refund if we stop this without it being made. We had over 350+ that wanted this.
My initial thought was to spend the several hours tonight to just cancel/refund.. but then I figured we came this far. I also go on vacation Sept 10-18.
So what I propose, today is the 11th of August. Lets give it till the 25th of August. 2 Weeks... If we are not even close, then I will spend the next 2 days refunding..
So listen.. if anyone out there wants this.. buy it now.. or it will not get made.. To all of those that did buy.. sorry its taking so long, your money is safe. I am not out to steal anything, I just want the door to be made.
Thanks
Joe
---
Thats crazy man but just like your saying, i actually am one of the dudes who said he was going to order one and i havent been on XDA in awhile, sorry i didnt see the thread but ill put an order in for one now. Best of luck, i hope we make it.
I'm sure though that if you made 275 you wouldn't have any problem at all selling them, both on here and on ebay. I'm surprised you have as many preorders as you do, considering you don't have a product to ship.
I just ordered mine. Can't wait to see it!
sketchy sketchy
yea dont forget about all the people not on xda or the other forums your doing this on. if you get close enough where you can afford to invest a little, do it and sell the rest after they are made.
DomSim said:
sketchy sketchy
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
STFU! GET OFF THE BOARDS!
go back in the hairy little hole you crawled out of.
Joey has been upfront with all of us following this project from the start. He is human like the rest of us. first time he has done something like this and im sure he now knows to "measure twice cut once" always check the numbers and check them again to be sure... so we will wait it out and see what happens not a big deal!
We didnt even know if it was going to make production after the first couple days because so many VOTED YES TO THE PROJECT AND THEN DISAPPEARED when it came time to pony up for the pre-order. If people would have kept their word about ordering they would be in production already!
Joey....how many people actually place an order of the 359 that originally voted yes?
Would raising the price of each one by a couple of bucks per door get them to the target without needing more preorders?
Sent from my PC36100 using XDA App
sprink0281 said:
STFU! GET OFF THE BOARDS!
go back in the hairy little hole you crawled out of.
Joey has been upfront with all of us following this project from the start. He is human like the rest of us. first time he has done something like this and im sure he now knows to "measure twice cut once" always check the numbers and check them again to be sure... so we will wait it out and see what happens not a big deal!
We didnt even know if it was going to make production after the first couple days because so many VOTED YES TO THE PROJECT AND THEN DISAPPEARED when it came time to pony up for the pre-order. If people would have kept their word about ordering they would be in production already!
Joey....how many people actually place an order of the 359 that originally voted yes?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am not sure of the numbers. I dont mind investing my own $ into it.. But I am just trying to get alot closer to that break even point.. If I sell more after, thats great but tbh, I am doing this as a community buy... not trying to get rich (not that I think that is even possible)
backdown said:
Would raising the price of each one by a couple of bucks per door get them to the target without needing more preorders?
Sent from my PC36100 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Or not giving us the multiple discount id give the 2$ back if need be...
sprink0281 said:
Or not giving us the multiple discount id give the 2$ back if need be...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
no, either of those would help but still not enough. thanks for the offer though
sprink0281 said:
Or not giving us the multiple discount id give the 2$ back if need be...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, I would love to have these, even if it does mean I sacrifice 2$
Joey, if you don't mind disclosing, how much money down you need to get these produced?
Sent from my PC36100 using XDA Appw
backdown said:
Yeah, I would love to have these, even if it does mean I sacrifice 2$
Joey, if you don't mind disclosing, how much money down you need to get these produced?
Sent from my PC36100 using XDA Appw
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
14.99 * 275 = X
115 sold * 14.99 = Y
X-Y = what is left
joey3002 said:
14.99 * 275 = X
115 sold * 14.99 = Y
X-Y = what is left
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So is "X" literally "Breaking Even" for you guys?
sprink0281 said:
STFU! GET OFF THE BOARDS!
go back in the hairy little hole you crawled out of.
Joey has been upfront with all of us following this project from the start. He is human like the rest of us. first time he has done something like this and im sure he now knows to "measure twice cut once" always check the numbers and check them again to be sure... so we will wait it out and see what happens not a big deal!
We didnt even know if it was going to make production after the first couple days because so many VOTED YES TO THE PROJECT AND THEN DISAPPEARED when it came time to pony up for the pre-order. If people would have kept their word about ordering they would be in production already!
Joey....how many people actually place an order of the 359 that originally voted yes?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
whoa there man, little crazy of a response dont you think. i am entitled to my opinion that this is sketchy. if you dont agree fine, but personal unprovoked attack is a bit much dont you think?
If you would have followed for the past month + you would see this is not sketchy.. I have kept everyone updated the entire time... And how can a complete refund be sketchy?
Sent from evo using xda app
DomSim said:
whoa there man, little crazy of a response dont you think. i am entitled to my opinion that this is sketchy. if you dont agree fine, but personal unprovoked attack is a bit much dont you think?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Calling someone sketchy is a personal attack.... joey has been upfront with us every step of the way...I only gave you some of your own medicine. That's all nothing more..
It aggravating when you watch someone work their ass off for the community on a project and have half of the people disappear who were supposed to order, then have you call this guy sketchy when hes done nothing but try to make us happy by seeing this project through any way he can... nobody else even came close to a comment like yours.
I followed the thread, saw all the updates, saw members commit money with delay after delay. I understand **** takes time but every post was "here is a final prototype but yours wont look like this" point is, promising something, taking peoples money, then GOING ON VACATION to wait it out IS sketchy whether you can admit it on not. You seem to have a serious personal stake in this or with the op but from an outside perspective it IS sketchy. If the op falls through and refunds everyones money then fine, that doesn't mean the situation was any less sketchy.
You say it wasn't sketchy because he kept everyone up to date, guess what, so do Nigerien scammers. Him keeping everyone updated is not a fool proof reassurance.
Sorry bro. Been holding out until I could see the finished product. Went ahead and ordered because I really want one. Thanks for the time an effort. Will tell my buddies with evos.
If you don't want one, don't send him money and leave the thread. I don't see how hard that is. And it's not that hard to get money back through paypal.
Sent from my Evo, using the xda app
DomSim said:
I followed the thread, saw all the updates, saw members commit money with delay after delay. I understand **** takes time but every post was "here is a final prototype but yours wont look like this" point is, promising something, taking peoples money, then GOING ON VACATION to wait it out IS sketchy whether you can admit it on not. You seem to have a serious personal stake in this or with the op but from an outside perspective it IS sketchy. If the op falls through and refunds everyones money then fine, that doesn't mean the situation was any less sketchy.
You say it wasn't sketchy because he kept everyone up to date, guess what, so do Nigerien scammers. Him keeping everyone updated is not a fool proof reassurance.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This will be my last reply to you...
This was not a person that had one post and decided to start asking for peoples money..before this went to pre-order he told us of his VACATION and possible delivery dates. I have been involved with community generated projects in the past and they all involved a pre-order because these types of projects are not cheap to get started and not done to make an initial profit, they are to help get something made the community wants and doesn't exist, once the community is taken care of then you try to make money from the project by exploring different ways to market said item at a significantly higher price. He is not a prince from Nigeria sending unsolicited emails trying to get my bank info so that comparison was completely stupid AND HE IS USING PAYPAL! Wait did I mention PAYPAL! Nobody had to western union him cash or transfer cash into his account, so we feel very confident because at the end of the day if this doesn't get to production we WILL ALL GET OUR MONEY BACK BECAUSE HE USED PAYPAL! Easy for him to refund our money and has buyer protection. My personal stake in this -- I want a unique clear and colored battery door for my evo, made in the USA sold in the USA by someone in the community who actually followed thru! Joey took a poll to see how many people would buy one and it was more than enough for this project to move forward! It is not his fault that some people are not doing their part of the project and pre-ordering to get these to production.
Like I said this is my last response to you regarding this thread...you are officially on my ignore list.
So its been a while since i had an htc.
The last one i had was so easy to root s-off super cid.
when it wasnt, i always loved the challenge.
If i recall you had to extract a file called mmcblk0p4 and modify it. Or just modify it with a hex editor right on your phone and place it back with a root explorer. actually i still have it in an old folder.
What is the problem here? How did htc fix that exploit? Why cant we figure it out?
Not that i dont appreciate an awesome app that does it for you. But i always loved doing it myself.
Not trying to bash or start a debate over moralities. Just an interesting and informative convo.
where there is a will there is a way!
Well actually I guess because the people who were discovering the exploits actually created sunshine and are distributing methods via this app only.
There's nobody that can use the app to figure out how the actual app does it?
Maybe I am thinking its more simple than it is. I know i sure as hell cant.
myphonesbetter said:
There's nobody that can use the app to figure out how the actual app does it?
Maybe I am thinking its more simple than it is. I know i sure as hell cant.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's an old discussion, but if you look up the Sunshine app thread you'll come across the explanation of why they decided to charge and what went into achieving S-OFF. Short answer: it's really hard.
Been about a year since i logged in apparently.
computerslayer said:
It's an old discussion, but if you look up the Sunshine app thread you'll come across the explanation of why they decided to charge and what went into achieving S-OFF. Short answer: it's really hard.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That is the perfect answer. it really hard.
its because some people are lazy and others are greedy thats why.
Honestly paying for an app to just do everything takes the fun out of it. Im not a coder or anything but most of what i have learned is from flashing phones and modding video games lol. Just dont have quite enough of an obsessive personality to be a full on mr robot.
I can see making a payed version that does the work for you and takes away the risk of bricking your phone. for the people who just want want want.
This im sure would make more than enough to cover costs. especially if the dev was in india or something.
Used phones with cracked screens or broken headphone jacks are a dime a dozen.
Or how about someone just reverse engineer the sunshine app. Or FIND AN EXPLOIT. and release it to the forums.
FAIR GAME right?
This team spent 100s of dollars and 100s accumulative hours to exploit something that costs 100's of millions of dollars and who knows how many hours to create and distribute.
The development thread seems so commercial now. Wouldn't be surprised if most of them were making money data mining selling info to advertisers.
Isnt that where the real money is these days.
I cant pay for it for the same reason i cant pay money for the better gun in a video game. Just pay to win. doesn't feel the same.
Also android is open source and free.
It blows my mind that only this one group of people can figure out how to do this.
Seems like the fact that there is money to be made would encourage more guy fawkes' to create some friendly compotish.
Plus if more "exploiters" could start from there then eventually it could end up so much more refined. Just like everything else on these forums.
Anyways sunshine is free and along with water gives life to the entire planet. I think they got the name wrong.
walmart mod group. buy out all other "developers" (hackers) and charge the people that keep this whole thing going.
I can appreciate and even envy the business sense and intelligence it takes to do what they do. cant say if i was in their shoes i wouldnt do everything i could to monetize it. But its just sad to the the community go down the toilet. This forum used to be so much more exciting. it seems like it used to create developers now you just pick a rom and move on. mother ****ing sad face.
You do realize, if it was trivial and cheap to do, the dozens of people who come complain would have done it sometime in the last three years.
We even publish detailed write ups, and source code snippets to parts of sunshine, including vulnerabilities and exploits. We get people 90% of the way there.
Even with use giving away critical parts of the project, people still don't release free versions. Why? because it isn't easy, and it isn't cheap. You are going to ruin a lot of phones along the way, and your work on the "cheap ones" doesn't apply to the new expensive ones, you are starting over from scratch with each generation, often with each firmware release.
We don't sell data to anyone, no ads on our sites or apps, even the numerous free apps like weaksauce and depixel8 have no ads, nor do their associated websites (not counting the thieves that rehost them with ads, thats not us).
We bought out no one, we pay no one to develop for us. We reinvest funds into more phone and equipment, sometimes some booze, and often into charity. Even google called us out for our charity work on their VRP blog.
Good luck on your endeavors, I encourage you to make a free alternative, to invest the money and time we did out of your own pocket. Neither of us are educated in security or computer scienece, we picked it up along the way when trying to hack on phones. No excuses! Anyone complaining should be working on an alternative. Don't expect much donations, or if you put a price on it don't expect much money from it, it isn't there.
myphonesbetter said:
Been about a year since i logged in apparently.
That is the perfect answer. it really hard.
its because some people are lazy and others are greedy thats why.
Honestly paying for an app to just do everything takes the fun out of it. Im not a coder or anything but most of what i have learned is from flashing phones and modding video games lol. Just dont have quite enough of an obsessive personality to be a full on mr robot.
I can see making a payed version that does the work for you and takes away the risk of bricking your phone. for the people who just want want want.
This im sure would make more than enough to cover costs. especially if the dev was in india or something.
Used phones with cracked screens or broken headphone jacks are a dime a dozen.
Or how about someone just reverse engineer the sunshine app. Or FIND AN EXPLOIT. and release it to the forums.
FAIR GAME right?
This team spent 100s of dollars and 100s accumulative hours to exploit something that costs 100's of millions of dollars and who knows how many hours to create and distribute.
The development thread seems so commercial now. Wouldn't be surprised if most of them were making money data mining selling info to advertisers.
Isnt that where the real money is these days.
I cant pay for it for the same reason i cant pay money for the better gun in a video game. Just pay to win. doesn't feel the same.
Also android is open source and free.
It blows my mind that only this one group of people can figure out how to do this.
Seems like the fact that there is money to be made would encourage more guy fawkes' to create some friendly compotish.
Plus if more "exploiters" could start from there then eventually it could end up so much more refined. Just like everything else on these forums.
Anyways sunshine is free and along with water gives life to the entire planet. I think they got the name wrong.
walmart mod group. buy out all other "developers" (hackers) and charge the people that keep this whole thing going.
I can appreciate and even envy the business sense and intelligence it takes to do what they do. cant say if i was in their shoes i wouldnt do everything i could to monetize it. But its just sad to the the community go down the toilet. This forum used to be so much more exciting. it seems like it used to create developers now you just pick a rom and move on. mother ****ing sad face.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sunshine has been about since the HTC One M7 days, I paid and used it on my M7 and M8 and about to use it on 2 x M9's, me personally, I really dont have a problem paying the $25 for it to do what it does, personally I think its dead cheap for what these guys did to get around HTCs so called fixes.
Now on to why it even costs in the first place, imagine whilst developing an app to this level, how many phones you had to buy and destroy along the way, this app isnt just for pretty much every HTC made since the M7, of course you are going to want some of it back, if you didnt, you'd be bankrupt in 2 days, with every release of firmware or every new phone release, the app needs to be modified and updated, Hell, you pay $200 for Microsoft Windows for the same reasons.
jcase said:
You do realize, if it was trivial and cheap to do, the dozens of people who come complain would have done it sometime in the last three years.
We even publish detailed write ups, and source code snippets to parts of sunshine, including vulnerabilities and exploits. We get people 90% of the way there.
Even with use giving away critical parts of the project, people still don't release free versions. Why? because it isn't easy, and it isn't cheap. You are going to ruin a lot of phones along the way, and your work on the "cheap ones" doesn't apply to the new expensive ones, you are starting over from scratch with each generation, often with each firmware release.
We don't sell data to anyone, no ads on our sites or apps, even the numerous free apps like weaksauce and depixel8 have no ads, nor do their associated websites (not counting the thieves that rehost them with ads, thats not us).
We bought out no one, we pay no one to develop for us. We reinvest funds into more phone and equipment, sometimes some booze, and often into charity. Even google called us out for our charity work on their VRP blog.
Good luck on your endeavors, I encourage you to make a free alternative, to invest the money and time we did out of your own pocket. Neither of us are educated in security or computer scienece, we picked it up along the way when trying to hack on phones. No excuses! Anyone complaining should be working on an alternative. Don't expect much donations, or if you put a price on it don't expect much money from it, it isn't there.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
thanks for the response. It would be nice to get a response on the actual q i posted lol. (different thread)
I guess its easier when its trivial.
Its good to hear you guys donate some of it. and that youve release the majority of the code. i guess people are just lazy.
Honestly you dont need s-off. The main reason i would want it is incase i need to go back to stock for warranty reasons. In which case the money would be worth it. still more fun do follow a write and learn about what i am doing in the process.
As far as data mining im talking about some of the more popular roms and apps out there. not just in the htc forum. Just a thought. why wouldn't they.
And the question isn't why its $25. I get that. It is totally worth it. Its so easy to use. I used to spend hours troubleshooting to get my phones s-off'd and running smooth on all the roms. now you can do it in seconds. these days i just pick one that works better than stock and stick with it. seems like stock updates kill the phones now.
Its why hasn't anybody exploited sunshine or made a completely different app that does the same thing. Or even better a write up on how to do it yourself.
To say its expensive on the older phones is a stretch and to say its too hard is eh.
I couldn't do it but you guys did (very quickly). so that means there is some 8 year old that could do it in his sleep.
And to say its out of pocket is a stretch when its a payed service. Most business endeavors or charities require some sort of investment.
And you can make a large chunk of the money back selling a bricked phone for parts. especially if its the latest model.
Why don't you guys release the code for free when you once you pay yourselves back. If more people started out where you left off (much like how you guys started) then the next generation would take no effort. If there were a thousand people testing and communicating and working together then the cost and time would be nothing.
There is nowhere to start anymore. there used to be all kinds of write ups that forced you to learn more about how everything works. then naturally some people figure out what they are actually doing are inspired to improve on it (sunshine for example). but now its just seems so overwhelming. Like nobody is there to help out when you get stuck.
I guess it dragged a little deeper than i wanted. But every time someone asks these questions it turns into insult matches or just the copy pasted comment of i don't think $25 is too much. if you cant afford that then blah blah . then all credibility is lost and people are persuaded to think as the majority of commenters think. Mouthbreathers will be mouthbreathers. But they are the ones that make this consumer based economy function properly.
Again, not trying to bash the people that put their time into this. More so trying to spark thoughts in people's minds who would normally just follow suit. Highlight different perspectives.
myphonesbetter said:
Its why hasn't anybody exploited sunshine or made a completely different app that does the same thing. Or even better a write up on how to do it yourself.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Many people have tried to crack sunshine, I'm unaware of anyone being successful. It is actually pretty funny seeing how many hours people put into cracking SunShine, it is an worthless endeavor considering that most of the calculations are done server side, cracking the app doesn't get you anything as it is done server side. They would need to hack our WAN facing server, proxy through it and then hack the "offline" box we do the work on. This would be a felony on many levels. I like to think most people are honest, and don't go committing felony violations of CFAA over the fact that an app isn't free.
As far as a different app, it is hard, it is expensive, and most people with the skillset or drive, are tackling bigger problems.
Far as a writeup, we make plenty of them, where are your technical write ups?
myphonesbetter said:
To say its expensive on the older phones is a stretch and to say its too hard is eh.
I couldn't do it but you guys did (very quickly). so that means there is some 8 year old that could do it in his sleep.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
None of this is "very fast", it all has years of research behind it. Research we did, we put the time and money into. Yes even on old phones it is expensive, the software we use (IDA Pro and Jeb) alone are $1000s a year in licensing fees. Considering each person needs a license, its very costly. And yes, we are not thieves, we actually have licenses in our names. Many models we have spent money on, never sell more than a couple licenses. So the more popular models also fund the work done on models that don't make any sales. Sure we could just not add support for oddball models sold in only one country, but what fun is that.
myphonesbetter said:
And to say its out of pocket is a stretch when its a payed service. Most business endeavors or charities require some sort of investment.
And you can make a large chunk of the money back selling a bricked phone for parts. especially if its the latest model.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The investment would be the out of pocket part, money to start projects doesnt just magically show up. New HTC u11 is what $600 bucks? One we fried the soc and mmc on? What $50 if we are selling it honestly (cause that thing wont EVER be repaired, and screen is about the only part re-usable)? Plus we run the risk of our debug builds leaking if someone is able to extract memory from the device, no thanks, not reselling a burned phone for $50(or even $300) and risk losing everything we have worked on for the last few years.
myphonesbetter said:
Why don't you guys release the code for free when you once you pay yourselves back. If more people started out where you left off (much like how you guys started) then the next generation would take no effort. If there were a thousand people testing and communicating and working together then the cost and time would be nothing.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
We have released plenty of free training material, white papers and example source code for people to start off of. Those resources would be much better than starting off with SunShine source code. As we have said, when SunShine is done, we will open source it. Considering no one does anything with what we do release, I have doubts anyone would do anything with everything we don't release. We were sure we would get 0 sales on Droid Turbo after publishing that write up, we thought someone would have a free exploit written that day. It has been years, nothing so far.
myphonesbetter said:
If there were a thousand people testing and communicating and working together then the cost and time would be nothing.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
LOL. People don't contribute to most mobile OSS projects, go look at copperhead, look at their commit history. I'm even guilty of it, my contributions besides projects I helped started are minimal (even my commits to AOSP are few).
myphonesbetter said:
There is nowhere to start anymore. there used to be all kinds of write ups that forced you to learn more about how everything works. then naturally some people figure out what they are actually doing are inspired to improve on it (sunshine for example). but now its just seems so overwhelming. Like nobody is there to help out when you get stuck.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
All of our write ups are still up, and we still publish more each year, I don't know what the heck you are going on about here. Please take the time to look rather than just make such claims.
myphonesbetter said:
Again, not trying to bash the people that put their time into this. More so trying to spark thoughts in people's minds who would normally just follow suit. Highlight different perspectives.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Again, feel free to use the free resources we have and continue to provide to the community for free to build your own. We DO NOT discourage people from doing so, we actively encourage it by publishing a fair bit of our work for free. I even traveled on my own dime (not sunshine money, not someone else's money, but from my paycheck) without reimbursement to Las Vegas with Tim Strazzere and Caleb Fenton to provide trading FOR FREE. We over filled the maximum occupancy for the room. We were not allowed to take any more people.
In reality, and not to be insulting, it is pretty obvious you didn't properly research all of this.