Applications that were made for Windows Mobile 6 are compatible with Windows Phone 7 Series. The interface of the new mobile operating system has been changed though, so the user interface for these applications will have to be changed as well.
"So there is no reason why programs written for Windows Mobile 6 cannot run on the new version of the OS", said Maarten Sonneveld of Microsoft Netherlands to Tweakers.net. "The interface is complete different though, so the applications will have to be changed somewhat before being ready for Windows Phone 7 Series".
It is still unclear how developers can port their user interfaces to the new version of Windows Mobile. Microsoft will only disclose how applications can be developed and distributed at their developer event Mix2010.
Microsoft announced it’s new OS on Monday afternoon at the Mobile World Congress in Barcelona. The OS is primarily aimed at synchronisation and integration with Microsft-services like Windows Live, Bing, Zune and Xbox Live. Aside from those Windows Phone 7 Series can also synchronise with Google-accounts and facebook.
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Source
So in summary, while none of the current applications will run on it, the underlying non-UI APIs will be compatible. So if understand correctly, porting would just a case of redeveloping the UI then recompiling, rather than starting completely from scratch. This acts to filter out apps with no more developer support, and promote a consistent UI.
Doesn't sound too bad to me.
That might explain why TomTom was seen on that screenshot of WP7 running on the HD2 (although, it could be a fake!). TomTom takes control of the screen, so uses no WM interface elements. So, it might be able to run full-screen apps/games without changes.
But, who knows...
elyl said:
That might explain why TomTom was seen on that screenshot of WP7 running on the HD2 (although, it could be a fake!). TomTom takes control of the screen, so uses no WM interface elements. So, it might be able to run full-screen apps/games without changes.
But, who knows...
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I was just thinking the same except if you use the included .net controls, there's no reason that the OS couldn't just reskin them automatically to be at least somewhat more in line with the WP7 styling.
This would be excellent if it's true - and I can't see why it wouldn't be. The UI may be new but why throw away a perfectly good underlying core.
What would also be ideal is if the "multi-tasking" involved an app being set to pause in the background by default, but with a "keep me running" API call available for apps that needed it. I'm sure most apps hog resourses not because they need to but because the developer hasn't really thought about how the rest of the device performs when his app has been left running.
Makes sense, WindowsCE core is still the same
Zaim2 said:
Applications that were made for Windows Mobile 6 are compatible with Windows Phone 7 Series
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Absolutely wrong statement due to incorrect translation. Original: "De interface van Windows Phone 7 Series is totaal anders, waardoor er in elk geval iets aan de applicaties moet gebeuren voordat ze geschikt zijn voor Windows Phone 7 Series"
Even google translates it correctly:
"The interface of Windows 7 Phone Series is different, which in any case something should happen to the applications before they are suitable for Windows 7 Phone Series".
We have some "ms confidential" documentation dated January 2010 that proves that none of the existing apps would be compatible with WinPhone7. And the only programming suite that is available to "generic" application-writers is Silverlight+XNA. Native apps are prohibited. Only OEMs and MO are allowed to create them (and even they have a set of limitations).
We would not have even source code compatibility - as all our C++ apps have to be converted to .NET.
mamaich said:
We have some "ms confidential" documentation dated January 2010...
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What the heck? And you say that only now? What else is in there? Any word about how background tasks are handled? Please give us some more information, or maybe, can you upload that documentation?
freyberry said:
maybe, can you upload that documentation?
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Obviously I cannot. As it would reveal the person who provided it.
Just to prove that such info really exists - see attached screenshots.
I really hope that the community would force MS to change such a dumb idea to limit independent software vendors to create only managed apps. Prohibiting C++ as a developing language, and "hiding" Windows API from programmer would force lots of developers to abandon this platform. The main reason of success of old WinMobile OSes was the ability to recompile "desktop" apps to WinMobile with just a minor set of changes (ANSI->Unicode + some interface changes).
P.S. I don't read PMs.
Obviously I cannot. As it would reveal the person who provided it.
Just to prove that such info really exists - see attached screenshots.
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Well, there's certainly a way to remove that information. But anyway, what about background tasks? Are third party applications allowed to run in the background?
mamaich said:
Obviously I cannot. As it would reveal the person who provided it.
Just to prove that such info really exists - see attached screenshots.
I really hope that the community would force MS to change such a dumb idea to limit independent software vendors to create only managed apps. Prohibiting C++ as a developing language, and "hiding" Windows API from programmer would force lots of developers to abandon this platform. The main reason of success of old WinMobile OSes was the ability to recompile "desktop" apps to WinMobile with just a minor set of changes (ANSI->Unicode + some interface changes).
P.S. I don't read PMs.
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Wow, I can't believe noone has picked up on this
freyberry said:
Are third party applications allowed to run in the background?
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OS itself supports multitasking, see attach. But "Windows Phone OS 7.0 Application Platform" that we'll be forced to use to create apps may force our application to be paused in background. I never programmed Silverlight and XNA and can't tell how multitatsking is made in them.
WinPhone 7 == Zune Phone. Both are based on CE kernel, and they should have lots of common in implementation of multitasking, clipboard, etc.
OS itself supports multitasking, see attach. But "Windows Phone OS 7.0 Application Platform" that we'll be forced to use to create apps may force our application to be paused in background.
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The question is, can we write applications that are not automatically suspended when sent to the background? What are the policies on this?
It says multiple processes can run at the same time, but it does not say whether they get suspended automatically.
Is there any info on this? Maybe in the "Scheduling" section?
I’m not sure this is a big deal. I can see them saying a lot of native C++ apps may have compatibility issues. I could go either way on it with the limited amount of information I have on this. I’ll have a better opinion at and after MIX
Note that this could be old documentation, and it’s pretty annoying you're leaking confidential documentation. Personally, I hope you get into trouble for breaking your contract - they trust you and you're posting it? Yuck.
To be fair, though, every app we’ve written has been managed, and Microsoft hasn't t said P/Invoking is verboten, so what would be the problem?
There’s probably exceptions for games and the like, and the documents you've scanned even say a waiver is available to use the Native APIs. So I don’t know what you're complaining about…
Microsoft's dev teams have been listening to developers - why not get them to chime in and also give them a chance to hear you. Posting confidential Microsoft documents, assuming those are real, is not the way to get them to listen
Best,
-Auri
freyberry said:
The question is, can we write applications that are not automatically suspended when sent to the background? What are the policies on this?
It says multiple processes can run at the same time, but it does not say whether they get suspended automatically.
Is there any info on this? Maybe in the "Scheduling" section?
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Personally, I like Android's approach to this, where Services can run in the background, but UI apps are allowed to be "put to sleep" while other apps run. But then again, we may see a lot of that come into play come MIX and "Answer Time"
Best,
-Auri
Well, I am now both excited and nervous -I think I will just cool my jets until MIX10 and just enjoy the eye candy for now. At worst - if the interface is nice, but the core is crap I am sure some of the boys here at xda will make us an inteface port for 6.5.x that acts and looks like the new hotness with the old compatibility. - lets see MIX
AuriRahimzadeh said:
Note that this could be old documentation, and it’s pretty annoying you're leaking confidential documentation.
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Docs are dated 2010.
I'm not leaking the documentation. I'm sharing the information that anyway would be opened in some days, maybe weeks.
And screens are posted here just as a confirmation of my words. You may think that these pics come from my mind and are made with photoshop - it is your opinion.
I really think that WinPhone 7 would be a failure similar to desktop Vista. Of cause some people would like it, but most would stay on WM 6.x and wait for the next version.
Regarding P/Invoke. As far as I've seen, "unsafe" operations are prohibited in XNA and Silverlight. Otherwise we would be able to call coredll funcs and run native apps (and do everything else that is allowed in our chamber).
mamaich said:
Docs are dated 2010.
I'm not leaking the documentation. I'm sharing the information that anyway would be opened in some days, maybe weeks.
And screens are posted here just as a confirmation of my words. You may think that these pics come from my mind and are made with photoshop - it is your opinion.
I really think that WinPhone 7 would be a failure similar to desktop Vista. Of cause some people would like it, but most would stay on WM 6.x and wait for the next version.
Regarding P/Invoke. As far as I've seen, "unsafe" operations are prohibited in XNA and Silverlight. Otherwise we would be able to call coredll funcs and run native apps (and do everything else that is allowed in our chamber).
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Mamaich any though of a WP7 ce6.0 bsp for all the current cortex A8 devices running on a ce5.2 bsp, will the new kernel support them natively or will extensive bsp/bootloader hacking be required?
P/invoke surely is a limitation of .NET CF, rather than Silverlight/XNA libraries?
I think it would be a bit stupid to remove P/Invoking, because it's just not realistic to rely on .NETCF alone which has soooo much stuff stripped out to minimize size.
Will we be seeing a whole new .NETCF so soon after 3.5? I highly doubt it...Unless MS have been working overtime the past year
Shame, time to stop mobile development altogether if this is true. When we developers are considered as dumb earning pipes for companies who in their arrogant big ways think they have all the wisdom, and app developers only make annoying software that makes their precious leaky OS'es crash, it's time to move on. i would have been talking about IPhone, Android etc, but sadly we must add Microsoft to the list also.
Then there's the $1195,- and airplane tickets we have to pay to get to the Mix2010 in oder to maybe maybe get to be a "partner" with access to limited native API's (probably only reserved for the big companies) and don't even bother talking about giving away 30% of our earnings to a company that last year made how many billions of profits was it ?
Time to start an XDA OS based on REAL Linux maybe ? NVidia have a nice dev-board available for $400,- with Tegra on it. That's what I call developer friendly.
Cheers !
Regardless of how this will play out, I'm pretty sure of two things:
1. Closing down the OS may be beneficial for the majority of users by bringing stability, ease of use, UI consistency, etc. Even though I don't like it.
2. Because the OS itself is multitasking, any and all restrictions may be hacked around, and a "jailbreak" will be possible.
Depending on how this whole thing will be implemented, jailbreaking and using "illegal" apps may be a major PITA (think iPhone 3GS/tethered jailbreak) or as easy as a few registry tweaks/installing additional certs/whatever. If Apple didn't chase JB with every update it would be a rather good platform for both mainstream "ordinary" users and those who want rather unusual things from their phones.
We'll have to wait and see how it evolves really to make a final judgment.
This is a new feature for WP7. An API will be provided for external services to validate that a call is coming from a Genuine Windows Phone. This will be accomplished by a requirement that every phone have a unique certificate applied during manufacturing process (similar to an IMEI, but more than a simple number, an actual .cer)
The certificate is to be stored in the "Device Provisioning Partition" during the manufacturing process and is to be destroyed upon completion of manufacturing. Any time a reflash occurs, a new certificate is to be issued.
This represents a significant change from the existing paradigm as your phone will be instantly uniquely identifiable through this method.
Bump for visibility
Is that going to make flashing custom ROMs an issue?
i think it gonna make flashing difficult..
if you flashed with custom, your WP7 would not be taken as genuine hehehe like Windows 7 lol
maharz said:
i think it gonna make flashing difficult..
if you flashed with custom, your WP7 would not be taken as genuine hehehe like Windows 7 lol
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lol then you have to mod your bios.
On the bright side, we may have fewer reasons to flash custom ROMs on WP7. What are our current reasons for flashing?
1. We need new OS versions on our devices when OEMs don't provide that. Well, this is supposed to be taken care of by centralized update mechanisms for all devices. WP7 will also support partial updates where you don't have to change everything but rather update certain components. Also, firmware files should be replaceable - otherwise OS updates wouldn't work. We'll be less dependant on HTC or whomever.
2. We need components from other devices (newer versions of Manila etc.). Well, these won't exist anymore.
3. We want light ROMs. WP7 will need things added, not removed, for the most part, and crapware will be very limited.
vangrieg said:
On the bright side, we may have fewer reasons to flash custom ROMs on WP7. What are our current reasons for flashing?
1. We need new OS versions on our devices when OEMs don't provide that. Well, this is supposed to be taken care of by centralized update mechanisms for all devices. WP7 will also support partial updates where you don't have to change everything but rather update certain components. Also, firmware files should be replaceable - otherwise OS updates wouldn't work. We'll be less dependant on HTC or whomever.
2. We need components from other devices (newer versions of Manila etc.). Well, these won't exist anymore.
3. We want light ROMs. WP7 will need things added, not removed, for the most part, and crapware will be very limited.
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Very true. With the OTA MS updates and such it will make life easier for updating the OS.
That could also bring a pitfall - hacking attempts that once worked get blocked.
Da_G said:
This is a new feature for WP7. An API will be provided for external services to validate that a call is coming from a Genuine Windows Phone. This will be accomplished by a requirement that every phone have a unique certificate applied during manufacturing process (similar to an IMEI, but more than a simple number, an actual .cer)
The certificate is to be stored in the "Device Provisioning Partition" during the manufacturing process and is to be destroyed upon completion of manufacturing. Any time a reflash occurs, a new certificate is to be issued.
This represents a significant change from the existing paradigm as your phone will be instantly uniquely identifiable through this method.
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1. Project Echelon, lol.
2. End of dev'n'hacking, lol.
(now, remove both lol's)
M$ REALLY thinks it may compete with iphone(and apple stupidity), can you believe...
The "uniquely identifiable phone" feature is probably the major reason for this. Face it, outside of these forums, how many "non-genuine" WM builds are there?
What this provides is a token-pair for secure message encryption and a single point of origin/destination for all those notifications.
Thank you for the information, Da_G.
So it seems this will also affect us being able to port a WM7 ROM to another mobile?
So this means evry phone has a unique certificate
They will look for a way around that. For instance...who's to say microsoft are even implementing the certificate etc on prototypes...that would be darn impractical since there's so much chopping and changing in this developer stage, and do we know the servers are up and running? We should cross this bridge when we/Da_G come to it, and look for a bypass if not.
I do not think this money will be wasted if we dont port it to HD2, the fact is I will be the first to donate when pre-orders for the first HTC WP7 handset is outed so that Da_G can use his tools for that too. The JTAG test point will be useful to the community and I know Da_G will use it for the community...actually there's very little personal stuff he could do, and I doubt he would anyways, since all the uses will be of benefit to the community.
We should definitely start look at alternatives to the marketplace now, like Cydia. I'm not sure how the guy's doing it, whether he has servers etc, whether we could use them for multitasking/social networking or other uses. Depends how far microsoft go. Anyways, we all know that if m$ close it down and we cant jailbreak etc, then the community will have to migrate to android.
if i understand the situtation. If every phone is uniquely identifyable it means that imei may be part of cert calculations which means update code would have to be able to generate a cert or request a cert from the update server.
But if the phone checks the certs validity reverse engineering the check could help us fake cert files
EDIT:
after reading on rom deployment it seems that it cert files would need to be faked in order to port to other phones and updates will also involve trickery of its own
Unless somone does something even more awesome
Has anyone been able to hack into the ZuneHD and get the OS off of that device?
The reason I ask, is because Microsoft has stated that the only way to sync the new Windows Phone 7 is through the Zune PC Software, and I believe I read somewhere that this means there will be no USB mounting support, just like the ZuneHD.
If people are able to get the ROM/OS off the ZuneHD then that should mean you would be able to do the same with the new phone OS, if it cannot be done, then I'm sure this doesn't bode well for the phone os.... I sincerely hope it can be done..
Anyway Just thought I'd ask!
Stephen
As far as I know, Zune hasn't been hacked, but it doesn't mean the phone OS can't. There is a different level of motivation in this case, I.e. you won't gain as much by hacking a player. Also, Zune has very limited distribution, you cannot but it outside the US, so not too many people have it. And finally, when various OEMs start engineering devices, there will be more leaks needed to hack the thing.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=564591
Zune Hacked
Here it is for your - http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=664992
http://weblogs.asp.net/scottgu/archive/2010/06/30/new-embedded-database-support-with-asp-net.aspx
Replied by Scott, M$ is looking to enable it on silverlight.
I think this is also work in wp7 in future
Yes, I'm pretty sure it's among the things they wanted to do with it. Not only does it make a dead-simple database support for ASP.NET apps, but it also will be good for Silverlight as platform.
That way we can get a nice DB with a LINQ provider, that will be able to be scaled up on the *real* SQL Server when needed. A counter-reaction to sqlite being made available for Silverlight though Mono.
It also fits the whole concept with IIS7 Express very good
"That is something we are looking to enable as well in the future. Not there just yet though "
Sounds like "not anytime soon" to me.
The problem is writing a database is fully managed code is, well, difficult. Specially if you want it to be performant.
Also I think they might rather want us to use cloud service (read: Windows Azure) instead of a RDBMS, for our Silverlight and WP7 applications, if datastorage is needed. I believe you can expose a Azure Storage easily to WP7 using WCF.
The thing is that when we can't deploy any native stuff, microsoft can. They just need to provide a wrapper so it can be used from .NET
lbjohnny said:
I is watching to following this on you maybe not yes
zune://pocketnow.com/windows-phone/wp7-live-services-security-reportedly-cracked-full-hd2-port-imminent
WP7 Live Services Security Cracked, Full HD2 Port Imminent?
File under: News
By: Evan Blass | 11:59 AM 6-Jan-11 | 8 Comments
Highly-regarded Windows Mobile developer and XDA senior moderator Da_G has reportedly been able to bypass the Genuine Advantage security protection on Windows Phone 7, enabling him to get live services like Xbox, Marketplace, and Zune working on an HTC HD2. The news was casually passed along by senior member AndrewSh, a user with over 1,000 posts. With the Dark Forces Team -- the group behind MAGLDR and HD2 NAND Android booting -- having successfully gotten WP7 running on HD2, the only real challenge up to this point has been enabling full functionality with regards to the services that "phone home" to Microsoft.
Notably, it was Da_G himself who lamented on the heavy cloud-based security back in November, stating that:
"Nearly all the major functions on the device operate by shuttling data to and from the “cloud”, presenting different methods to the user for getting their data on to the device. However as these services interact quite a bit with Microsoft’s own servers, they have considerably beefed up the security in this area. Each device contains a “Device Provisioning Partition” or DPP that contains a unique certificate assigned to the device at the factory. Each certificate is verified locally by the device in several places, and also uploaded and verified by the “Cloud” for each transaction. Loading Windows Phone 7 on to a device that did not originally come with the platform would result in having an invalid certificate, and these services will not function properly."
Well apparently Da_G has found a way to fool or otherwise bypass this Device Provisioning Partition, so that when a WP7 build is eventually released for HD2, it should be almost fully functional (although it will still require the use of a RAM loader, as opposed to a direct flash a la Windows Mobile). Since Da_G has been maintaining radio silence on XDA since Christmas, this development has yet to be verified, so we'll update when this becomes official.
Source: XDA
Thanks: HD2owner
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I have source code for this as a (disgruntled) M$ employee: posting via WIKILEAKS.
proof!
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