Develop Bugs

Am I the only one to think that WM7 will suck?

http://pocketnow.com/tech-news/mix10-microsoft-cuts-copy-paste-feature-from-windows-phone-7-series
http://pocketnow.com/tech-news/mix1...have-a-file-manager-nor-usb-mass-storage-mode
http://pocketnow.com/tech-news/microsoft-no-windows-mobile-compatibility-on-windows-phone-7-series
http://pocketnow.com/tech-news/mix10-windows-phone-7-series-apps-will-use-new-different-drm
Is it just me, or Windows Mobile 7 will SUCK big time? It seems to me, as far as i've been reading and searching the web that microsoft is following apples way with the iphone on the new upcoming os. Where have they lost their head? ???
I don't know about you folks, but in the near future i will be buying myself an HD2 with good old WM 6.x.x. Makes sense to me! spending so much on a phone, at least it has to let me copy and paste at my own will!

MS gone Apple
Looks like WinMo7 is MS's attempt to copy everything that make the iPhone suck. If I wanted an iPhone, I would have bought an iPhone. My next one will probably be an Android.

no as time goes on i start to think that more & more but im sure as soon as i see a new video on it im prolly gonna want it again

I'm glad to read this, that at least someone has the same thoughts as mine. I really don't think WP7 will be as successful as Android OS, BB OS or even iPhone OS.

FYI it appears copy and paste will be in the RTM or most likely added shortly after.
To be fair Microsoft is trying to cater to a less advanced audience then the typical XDA user, so in that sense it may do well. From the XDA perspective as long as it gets rooted/jailbreaked/whatever, that isn't terribly different then flashing a HSPL and a custom rom. My only dislike is the lack of storage card, hopefully they will let up on this issue. The SDK is only managed code, this makes programs in general less dangerous and quicker to develop. On the other hand you loose the nitty gritty features XDA users love. Though I imagine having the phone rooted makes both of those points moot. At least you are not one of the people yammering how they are jumping ship to xxxxxx. The OS isn't RTM yet and the gurus haven't touched let a lone disabled all the sandboxing on any WMS7 phones. I somehow doubt the current windows mobile users on here griping are using a stock rom.

Theres no way WP7S will suck! This thread is pretty much useless pointing out on things which others have pointed out in 100 of such threads!

johnlujl123 said:
I'm glad to read this, that at least someone has the same thoughts as mine. I really don't think WP7 will be as successful as Android OS, BB OS or even iPhone OS.
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well at the moment Android isn't very wide-spread! Windows Mobile still got a bigger marketshare. But Google is great in making people use their products so we'll see in two years who will be at the top: WP7 or Android.
iPhone what?

The major issue i see with WP7S is no removable storage.
When the system gets taken apart, all of the other features we are missing (task manager, file system access, multitasking etc) will get put back in by XDA.
But... no removable storage is a biggie...
The problem is... there will be no manufacturers making WP7S devices that have micro sd card slots. Why would they?

Ev0luti0n_ said:
Is it just me, or Windows Mobile 7 will SUCK big time?...
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Windows Mobile 7 did suck, that's why it got dropped for Windows Phone 7 Series
I believe eventually, Blackberry, iPhone and WP7 will be the top smartphone OS (in US) with Android going the way of WM with a small marketshare. Perhaps Android will catch WM one day now that WM was sent to pasture.
Any smartphone without a great ecosystem and super friendly OS will fail to compete with the "big boys"

I prefer not having my storage removable. I never take the card out of the phone anyway, and I hate having to decide where to put everything.
Do I put stuff on the card to preserve memory? Or in memory for speed?
If a phone ships with 8, 16 or 32GB of onboard memory, such concerns become moot, it's all one big lump of storage. This is probably why Microsoft haven't added the functionality to the Marketplace to put software onto the card - there won't BE a card in WP7S. Not only that, developers will be able to rely on the fact there'll be plenty of storage available for their games or whatever. Currently, as cards are optional, the only thing they can rely on is a couple hundred megs of RAM and that's it. So in the end I think this decision had to be made. Your average punter hates having to splash out on a memory card after spending £400-500 on a phone with virtually no storage. It is pretty silly. It would be like purchasing a laptop without a hard drive.
In any case, thus far at least, card storage capacities have not outstripped the onboard memory size of phones such as the iPhone. iPhone has 32GB on board, twice what my HD2 has.
Honestly, how many ordinary users do you think really want to faff around with memory cards? It's been nothing but a hassle for me.

Jim Coleman said:
Honestly, how many ordinary users do you think really want to faff around with memory cards? It's been nothing but a hassle for me.
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This is true... your average punter would think that removable storage is nothing but extra hassle.
However... when your phone goes tits up and you lose all of your files because you didnt have a backup, the advantage of removable storage becomes abundantly clear.
I for one would rather simply take my micro sd card out of the phone and place it directly into another device to get instantly up and running again.

Yes but it won't be an advantage with WP7 anyway as it won't have file system access and you won't be able to take programs installed on that card from one phone and simply plug it into another. So in WP7 as it is now storage cards are nothing but a hassle.

vangrieg said:
Yes but it won't be an advantage with WP7 anyway as it won't have file system access and you won't be able to take programs installed on that card from one phone and simply plug it into another. So in WP7 as it is now storage cards are nothing but a hassle.
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Ah... but you sort of missed the point of my first post....
what i am saying is.... eventually, WP7S will be taken apart and file system access would be possible. So would installing apps outside of the microsoft marketplace.
Therefore... removable storage becomes extremely useful once more,... but there would be no devices running wp7s that actually have micro sd slots.
Forget looking at wp7s as it is now (shockingly bad)... im looking towards the future somewhat...

I hope they put 32 and 64gb chips in phones and not all go with the 8gb minimum.

Kloc said:
I hope they put 32 and 64gb chips in phones and not all go with the 8gb minimum.
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At least one manufacturer will, just to stand out amidst the crowd.

Musicman247 said:
At least one manufacturer will, just to stand out amidst the crowd.
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Well let me go a little further. I hope HTC puts 32 or 64GB chips in a phone. I hope such phone has a slide out keyboard, and comes to TMO USA.

Audio Oblivion said:
what i am saying is.... eventually, WP7S will be taken apart and file system access would be possible. So would installing apps outside of the microsoft marketplace.
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No doubt about it, but you can't expect MS to cater to that, can you? Me, I will miss SD card if I do switch to WP7, but built-in flash has its benefits as well, it's faster, actually. I need to be able to copy files there though.

Kloc said:
Well let me go a little further. I hope HTC puts 32 or 64GB chips in a phone. I hope such phone has a slide out keyboard, and comes to TMO USA.
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And it needs to be super thin.
AND, it needs to come to Sprint.

vangrieg; said:
No doubt about it, but you can't expect MS to cater to that, can you? Me, I will miss SD card if I do switch to WP7, but built-in flash has its benefits as well, it's faster, actually. I need to be able to copy files there though.
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You should still be able to files to and from wp7s although it does not use any storage card. I do that with iPhone now and there's no reason to think it will be any different here.

You can do it on the iPhone after jailbreaking. Without it you can only transfer certain types via sync interfaces. And then you cannot choose which application will use those files.

No SD card access, No Swype?? Steve Balmer is sceretly working for Apple!

I mean c'mon!! some of the most elementary things that made WM great, Balmer is ripping out of our arms!
I'm starting to feel like if I'm going to get an HD7, I may as well just go get the iphone...& I HATE the iphone!

Are you an idiot? There is removable storage. Why do you need to access the SD?
As for Swype... the integrated keyboard in WP7 is brilliant, there's no need for it. We're not using Android here.

owenw said:
Are you an idiot? There is removable storage. Why do you need to access the SD?
As for Swype... the integrated keyboard in WP7 is brilliant, there's no need for it. We're not using Android here.
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Actually, you must be the idiot! If you remove/change the SD card, you void the warrantee!
As for Swype, it was included on the HD2 & if I like that is my business! If it was available on 6.5 it should be easy enough to include on WP7. Why should I have to completely change the way I have been used to typing for almost a year?
Do your research before you throw the "idiot" term around, you end up looking like a bigger one than you accused me of being!

MadLinx said:
Actually, you must be the idiot! If you remove/change the SD card, you void the warrantee!
As for Swype, it was included on the HD2 & if I like that is my business! If it was available on 6.5 it should be easy enough to include on WP7. Why should I have to completely change the way I have been used to typing for almost a year?
Do your research before you throw the "idiot" term around, you end up looking like a bigger one than you accused me of being!
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Wrong again champ. You can remove the update the SD on Samsung devices. The warranty you are talking about is with the HD7, because you need to remove screws to get access to the SD Card. So why don't you do some researching?

walshieau said:
Wrong again champ. You can remove the update the SD on Samsung devices. The warranty you are talking about is with the HD7, because you need to remove screws to get access to the SD Card. So why don't you do some researching?
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I have Champ! thats why I was able to put you in your place about your statement!

MadLinx said:
I have Champ! thats why I was able to put you in your place about your statement!
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You obviously can't read then
They were never my statements
I was simply backing up the person who replied to you
As you are incorrect about the warranty. The USER REPLACEABLE SD Slots DON'T VOID the warranty. The HTC ones do.

MadLinx said:
I have Champ! thats why I was able to put you in your place about your statement!
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Furthermore, since MS wants to be Neo-Nazi like Apple now (you know the 3 buttons that made it "impossible" for the HD2 to use the WP7 OS) what MS should have done is make the ability to switch out SD cards a mandatory requirement as their precious 3 Buttons.
you still wanna tell me how much of a genius everybody @ MS is now??

walshieau said:
You obviously can't read then
They were never my statements
I was simply backing up the person who replied to you
As you are incorrect about the warranty. The USER REPLACEABLE SD Slots DON'T VOID the warranty. The HTC ones do.
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I probably read much better than you!
1. when I hit "quote" yours was the profile that came up.
2. that's fine if that's your opinion.
3. I am correct about the warrantee...on the HD7 which is my only WP7 device of interest. Again, it's MS's fault for not making the SD option mandatory.

owenw said:
Are you an idiot? There is removable storage. Why do you need to access the SD?
As for Swype... the integrated keyboard in WP7 is brilliant, there's no need for it. We're not using Android here.
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you better read this one:
Windows Phone 7 - The filesystem and how it is presented to the user
before call someone an idiot

Just left wondering if this couldnt be addressed in one of the 1,000,000,000 threads covering precisely the same topic?
As for swype, AFAIK it was never available on the HD2 that my carrier sold me... if it wasnt for a .CAB file of questionable legality, i would never have been able to try it. Or is this the problem? Locking the OS down removes all the "free" software we used to run?

mshagg said:
Just left wondering if this couldnt be addressed in one of the 1,000,000,000 threads covering precisely the same topic?
As for swype, AFAIK it was never available on the HD2 that my carrier sold me... if it wasnt for a .CAB file of questionable legality, i would never have been able to try it. Or is this the problem? Locking the OS down removes all the "free" software we used to run?
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It WAS included on the OS my carrier sold me. As for being addressed on previous threads, I'm all for condensing. However, when I did a search my findings were lacking in this specific subject.
Perhaps there may be a better indexing system that can be developed to avoid these problems moving forward.

MrKaon said:
you better read this one:
Windows Phone 7 - The filesystem and how it is presented to the user
before call someone an idiot
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My response of idiot was in as a result of being accused of being one myself for making points that have been valid & accurate. In reading the post which you pointed me to from March of this year. Reading internal & SD memory as one isn't the problem here. Neither is having to hard reset in order to reconfigure with the new SD card. That post further supports my point about MS really missing the proverbial boat here.
Case in point, removing the HD7's SD card is possible but not without voiding the warrantee. This is not by MS mandate, but if MS is going to be so controlling of other aspects of WP7 why not make sure we the users can upgrade SD card size as WE feel necessary.
My HD2 came with a 16gb SD card, knowing that this would not be enough for ME I upgraded to a 32gb one. I currently have about 22gb of info on my card. If you don't, or don't understand why I have that much data that's fine it's not relevant.
My point simply is this, we all know that these devices are no longer phones...they are mini computers that have a phone in them. That being the case, it should be mandated by MS that we have the option to upgrade our memory on ALL devices not just some!

MadLinx said:
Case in point, removing the HD7's SD card is possible but not without voiding the warrantee.
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Not true:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=807900&page=13

According to what I've read and understand, replacing the card will wipe the system, like a hard reset, because the card is being used as internal memory. They say you can upgrade the card, but you have to start all over again...erasing all accumulated data and info on the device.
What I find ironic is, Balmer has stated the reason for this type of system is because MicroSD tech is very low quality, buggy and problematic. He says the quality and reliability consistency from one card to another varies. And yet MS adopts MicroSD tech for its internal storage on WP7 devices. [scratches head and rolls eyes]

Well Microsoft could of included internal NAND in it's hardware specs but that would of increased the costs of devices and price point is a huge milestone when you're competing against the iPhone.
The most sensible way of keeping costs down while still allowing manufacturers to offer a variety of storage configurations was to use microSDHC.
The point about quality and reliability is a valid one, read Bunnie's blog post if you havn't yet. The way to control this is to not provide the user the ability to access that storage, it is preinstalled in the device.
Some people like Samsung have still chosen to give the user that choice and I think more will over time.
It really isn't that strange.

Oh my god, this is way too funny! Both of you seem pretty ill informed, the WP7 keyboard is perfect but a lot of people still want to use swype. Anyways all I can say is that only the Samsung devices have SD card support and even then it is god awful. You have to format the device to expand the memory? Lol. Anyway, the OS has 10x more freedom than iOS, mainly because it has more access to the hardware. The OS has a lot of downsides and I think its biggest is the lack of developer support, however that should change very soon. Oh, by the way, I hammered this all down on the WP7 keyboard.

JEEtoP said:
Well Microsoft could of included internal NAND in it's hardware specs but that would of increased the costs of devices and price point is a huge milestone when you're competing against the iPhone.
The most sensible way of keeping costs down while still allowing manufacturers to offer a variety of storage configurations was to use microSDHC.
The point about quality and reliability is a valid one, read Bunnie's blog post if you havn't yet. The way to control this is to not provide the user the ability to access that storage, it is preinstalled in the device.
Some people like Samsung have still chosen to give the user that choice and I think more will over time.
It really isn't that strange.
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And I could have lived with this if HTC used a 32gb card instead of a 16gb, or at least given us a choice between the two...bad decision making. So much for "HTC Quietly Brilliant" SMH

Smokexz said:
Oh my god, this is way too funny! Both of you seem pretty ill informed, the WP7 keyboard is perfect but a lot of people still want to use swype. Anyways all I can say is that only the Samsung devices have SD card support and even then it is god awful. You have to format the device to expand the memory? Lol. Anyway, the OS has 10x more freedom than iOS, mainly because it has more access to the hardware. The OS has a lot of downsides and I think its biggest is the lack of developer support, however that should change very soon. Oh, by the way, I hammered this all down on the WP7 keyboard.
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In regard to the keyboard, It's all about choice. While the WP7 keyboard is perfect to you, Swype is perfect for me. We should have both.
That's what made 6.5 so great. It's a shame that we probably won't see much more support or development for it.

MartyLK said:
According to what I've read and understand, replacing the card will wipe the system, like a hard reset, because the card is being used as internal memory. They say you can upgrade the card, but you have to start all over again...erasing all accumulated data and info on the device.
What I find ironic is, Balmer has stated the reason for this type of system is because MicroSD tech is very low quality, buggy and problematic. He says the quality and reliability consistency from one card to another varies. And yet MS adopts MicroSD tech for its internal storage on WP7 devices. [scratches head and rolls eyes]
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Exactly! I said it jokingly, but sometimes it does seem like an Apple double agent.

MadLinx said:
And I could have lived with this if HTC used a 32gb card instead of a 16gb, or at least given us a choice between the two...bad decision making. So much for "HTC Quietly Brilliant" SMH
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Yeah I agree, not just HTC but across the board there was a surprising lack of storage space with the launch handsets.
I'd guess it had something to do with cost-cutting as well as availability of Class 4 32GB cards. The only vendor manufacturing them as far as I can remember is Kingston and they don't seem to be that well stocked.
Oh well, by tomorrow morning my HD7 will be packin' 32GB and my smartphone will be set for the next 18 months

MicroSD card support when Windows 7 was being developed

Forgive me if this had been discussed before, but does anyone have any idea why Microsoft would program an OS that supposedly was built from the ground up to NOT support external MicroSD cards? It would seem that in this day and age that it would have been in the top 5 list of "had to be included." Instead they gave the manufacturers their specs for 8GB of internal RAM and that was it. What in the world was Microsoft thinking?
I'm actually happy that Samsung said "screw that" and made a MicroSD slot that was user accessible. That basically forced Microsoft to rethink their strategy, especially after the first patch "fiasco."
Does anyone here have any inside information as to why the MicroSD card wasn't on their list of "must have" for Windows 7? Do you think they were trying to pull an Apple strategy where they can sell an 8GB phone, a 16GB phone, and a 32GB phone to try to make more money?

MicroSD cards ARE supported by WP7, in fact all but a few WP7 devices have them.
What you are looking for is called "removable" & "user-accessible"/"upgradeable" storage.

Scrtcwlvl said:
MicroSD cards ARE supported by WP7, in fact all but a few WP7 devices have them.
What you are looking for is called "removable" & "user-accessible"/"upgradeable" storage.
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well all the HTC ones use microSD, as well as the DELL Venue Pro, where as all LG phones use NAND, and Samsung uses NAND (with the exception of focus offering an external microSD slot).
The main reason why MS didn't want it exposed is because of the way it uses the microSD card. The use of it in an actual secured RAID 0 format means that it makes the card unusable by any other means making the data secure on the chip. And they knew that people would complain so they didn't want the OEMs to offer it as a user accessible slot, but they didn't enforce it. Not sure if that's a good or bad thing though.

The Gate Keeper said:
And they knew that people would complain so they didn't want the OEMs to offer it as a user accessible slot, but they didn't enforce it. Not sure if that's a good or bad thing though.
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I guess now that the genie is out of be bottle it appears that Microsoft will now need to address this dilemma. It appears that people are okay with the idea that once the microSD card is used by a WP7 phone that it can't be reused in something else. I know I'm okay with it if the phone is functional with more space to save music, videos, games, etc. I currently have a 8GB card in my phone, but what I really wanted was a 32GB card but after hearing how unstable it was I held back. It was the inability to use the 32GB card that made me ask the original question.

nathantw said:
I guess now that the genie is out of be bottle it appears that Microsoft will now need to address this dilemma. It appears that people are okay with the idea that once the microSD card is used by a WP7 phone that it can't be reused in something else. I know I'm okay with it if the phone is functional with more space to save music, videos, games, etc. I currently have a 8GB card in my phone, but what I really wanted was a 32GB card but after hearing how unstable it was I held back. It was the inability to use the 32GB card that made me ask the original question.
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Samsung Focus' implementation of SD is flawed either in hardware level or software level or both. There is no problem using any size or type of SD cards in any other WP7 phones not made by Samsung. MicroSD cards have been around for very long time. There is really no reason for a phone, especially one that is designed to take user removeable SD card, to not support all kinds of cards.
Now you have Samsung Focus not only doesn't support majority of SD cards out there but also refuses to accept updates from Micrsoft. It sounds like Samsung has a hatrate against WP7

I think MS saw the problems that Android had with removable storage and decided to require a minimum of 8gb and do away with any sort of removable storage. This makes the OS more stable as a whole.

i think MS did not want ppl to load android on WP7 dvice thats why they did this to the memory card...

They're trying to stop piracy, there's many Android sites out there on the internet that'll give you APKs of premium android apps that have been ripped off people's memory cards and uploaded.
It doesn't help that with Android you have 24 hours to request a refund and therefore can buy, rip from memory card and refund.
It may seem bad to you but from a developer point of view it's awesome. And before anyone goes on about encryption etc, people will find a way to hack through that they always do.

brummiesteven said:
It doesn't help that with Android you have 24 hours to request a refund and therefore can buy, rip from memory card and refund.
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i believe this is now only 15 minutes, which a lot of people think is a bit too short of a time frame as well. this is why the setup MS did was quite smart, offering the capabilities for devs to implement a trial mode within their full app.

^ care to check facts first. 24 hours?
..........edit .... gate keeper beat me to it.
You can also say the same for IOS, and WebOS. Piracy will come, there is no stopping it.

The Gate Keeper said:
i believe this is now only 15 minutes, which a lot of people think is a bit too short of a time frame as well. this is why the setup MS did was quite smart, offering the capabilities for devs to implement a trial mode within their full app.
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Click to collapse
which is still enough time to rip the apk and still get a refund.
And as I sit here being frustrated that more devs are going to an ad supported model, I think I have found the reason why....

yea it is enough time to perform that. but to a general user 15 minutes isn't enough time to see if the app was worth the purchase.
the market place needs better search capabilities for trial apps, that's all. once they are there, then more people will start using the trial apps and if they deem it worth it they would buy it.

Storage and the Cloud: Let's be reasonable, people...

I started writing this post in another thread but I felt it was better off in it's own. Please read it in full if you're going to respond, I know it's long but you'll just look silly if you don't:
The reality is that most data plans are limited to 500MB, or if you're lucky 1GB, and for the vast majority of users this is way more than enough - in my case I do occasionally go over, which is why I'm on a plan where I just pay £5 per 500MB, it might not be the cheapest option but it's the best for me, and my bills are normally £30 a month, which is very reasonable for the quality of service I get.
Most people will never use the cloud features on their phones, in reality. Fair enough, some people will require a phone with a larger storage capacity. It would be nice to see some phones with larger storage, but there is a massive problem: take a phone with big storage, or with storage size options, to a mobile network, and they'll just charge an absolute fortune for it, so nobody will buy it. That limits your market to SIM free devices- and maybe a few people will buy it then, but probably not enough to make it worth your while.
What you guys that want extra storage have to prove is that you can get enough people on board to make it worthwhile for Samsung/HTC/Nokia to get out of bed and do it. With android/iPhone that isn't a problem because average joe will buy it regardless and probably won't have a clue what they're buying, but Windows Phone is a harder sell, despite being a better system (in a lot of our opinons, I believe).
In the meantime, firstly why are videos so important to you? On a 4" screen my eyesight would be pretty screwed after about half an hour, which is why I have a 32GB Android tablet for videos, with a nice comfortable 10" screen, and it just stays in the bag that comes with me. On the odd occasion I don't have my tablet, then Youtube is normally more than enough and using it only occasionally doesn't hack out at my data plan.
For music, I don't know of anybody who actually listens to their entire music collection on their phone, and in my own perfect world I wish people would realise this. My way around not being able to store all of my music on my phone is to just have a smart playlist of tracks that I have starred, automatically synchronising 250 of my starred tracks to my phone at random- that way I have a nice selection of music I know I like, which in a way is better because I'm making better use of my collection, and I get nice surprises occasionally.
In summary, I just want to ask of everyone: Please just remember almost nobody is in the same precise position as you. It's great that there is a large range of people here with a range of opinions, but you have to understand that assuming that everybody is the same as you is just going to annoy people. There is nothing wrong with expressing that you would like a phone with more internal storage - but say it, then move on. Don't carry on saying it over and over. And if you don't want a phone with more internal storage, say it, then move on. Don't start arguments because you don't agree with people.
I personally love my HTC 7 Pro and won't be changing it. It isn't perfect, but I'm not going to moan endlessly about what's wrong with it, I'm going to give my opinion where it's relevant, and if there's a good response I'll back it up with my reasoning. That's how forums should work.

andrewkeith5 said:
What you guys that want extra storage have to prove is that you can get enough people on board to make it worthwhile for Samsung/HTC/Nokia to get out of bed and do it.
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The best way to show OEMs that it's worthwile would be for one of them to have one out and for the others to see how it sells. Not by having everyone on this forum sending them a letter. The question is they don't they make the effort, at least once? When you see a N9 with 64GB and a Lumia 800 with 16GB it hurts.

Really not sure why its thought only apple can accomplish things like having a smartphone line with large storage options. There's a very simple solution to this: offer a larger 32GB storage option at a $100 premium in limited quantities (just like Dell did with the DVP) and see what happens. In Dell's case it didn't sell well (likely due to their distribution model) and it was withdrawn. OEM's like HTC and Samsung will be better placed to make this option work but again, have the option to withdraw the higher priced option.
In any case, it seems they are still in softly softly mode with WP7 so I doubt anyone but Nokia will be the first to offer higher levels of storage. The cloud though is absolutely not the blanket solution for everybody, though it works for some but for others the current storage options will definitely be insufficient.

Apple did perfectly well. They decided to remove slot for SD cards but logically they offered 32GB and 64GB versions of their devices in order to compensate the loss of expandable storage.
Microsoft removed the SD card slot but is unable to propose any hardware having more than 16GB (actually it is only 13.2GB once the OS is installed).
Sorry but this is not acceptable.
Apple has only one hardware and offers you the choice.
MS works with several OEM and fails to propose more than 16GB.
The lack of storage, the lack of alternative finally made me switch to Android.
Congrats Microsoft !

Good responses, thanks! I think the main reason that none of the OEMs has released a higher capacity model is sheer numbers.
With Android, even if the high capacity model sells 10% of the volume of the low capacity version, that's still a lot of units. With WP7, though, the sales of the single model probably aren't enough to justify making variations as that will just make it harder to sell to the distributor (the network, mainly).
Like you efjay, I'm hopeful that with Nokia on board and Mango being more like the sort of feature-rich software people demand volumes will slowly start to increase and the manufacturers will start to break their model ranges into more variants.
IMHO a MASSIVE problem with the distribution models as they are is exclusivity - with WP7, the absolute key is going to be making every device available everywhere, so as many people see it/try it/want it as conceivably possible. With exclusives, you're limiting distribution of an already limited distribution product, and that's going to harm growth.

arturobandini said:
Apple did perfectly well. They decided to remove slot for SD cards but logically they offered 32GB and 64GB versions of their devices in order to compensate the loss of expandable storage.
Microsoft removed the SD card slot but is unable to propose any hardware having more than 16GB (actually it is only 13.2GB once the OS is installed).
Sorry but this is not acceptable.
Apple has only one hardware and offers you the choice.
MS works with several OEM and fails to propose more than 16GB.
The lack of storage, the lack of alternative finally made me switch to Android.
Congrats Microsoft !
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Click to collapse
I never said that Apple didn't do well. What I said, was that WP7 has to be targeted at a big, but specific type of consumer base to work well, and that most of that consumer base probably don't know or care how much storage they have - once the volumes increase, then there will be more variants with more storage, but right now there is no incentive to provide high capacity variants because the networks will price them out of the market and they won't sell to joe public.

andrewkeith5 said:
IMHO a MASSIVE problem with the distribution models as they are is exclusivity - with WP7, the absolute key is going to be making every device available everywhere, so as many people see it/try it/want it as conceivably possible. With exclusives, you're limiting distribution of an already limited distribution product, and that's going to harm growth.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Difference here is the territory. In Europe (and the UK in particular) the Lumia devices will be on practically every carrier (except it seems O2 cos of their iphone love) and are being backed by a huge marketing campaign and incentives to customers and probably sales staff. You can even pre-order the Nokia phones which has never happened for any other WP7 device. In the US however, the story is radically different - T-Mobile has announced only 1 new device, nothing for Sprint and Verizon, which leaves at&t who will have 3 new devices and none of these devices are being given special treatment, rather they are just being thrown up on the carrier's website with no fanfare. With that kind of lopsided distribution and lack of promotion, along with the acknowledged bias, its no wonder WP7 struggles in the US, and that really is down to poor carrier support. US carriers have no problem stocking the same android model but WP7 is largely ignored. Until that changes there is no way WP7 is going to make nay headway, at least in the US.
I think though, that with Nokia's media push, brand recognition and seemingly well liked devices WP7 can do very well in Europe. It will be interesting to see the sales figures for the Lumia 800/710 this holiday compared to other handsets in Europe and the US. The US looks like it will continue to have a poor selection of WP7 devices and be dominated by ios and android.

andrewkeith5 said:
1) Most people will never use the cloud features on their phones, in reality. Fair enough, some people will require a phone with a larger storage capacity. It would be nice to see some phones with larger storage, but there is a massive problem: take a phone with big storage, or with storage size options, to a mobile network, and they'll just charge an absolute fortune for it, so nobody will buy it. That limits your market to SIM free devices- and maybe a few people will buy it then, but probably not enough to make it worth your while.
2) In the meantime, firstly why are videos so important to you? On a 4" screen my eyesight would be pretty screwed after about half an hour, which is why I have a 32GB Android tablet for videos, with a nice comfortable 10" screen, and it just stays in the bag that comes with me. On the odd occasion I don't have my tablet, then Youtube is normally more than enough and using it only occasionally doesn't hack out at my data plan.
3) to just have a smart playlist of tracks that I have starred, automatically synchronising 250 of my starred tracks to my phone at random- that way I have a nice selection of music I know I like, which in a way is better because I'm making better use of my collection, and I get nice surprises occasionally.
4) In summary, I just want to ask of everyone: Please just remember almost nobody is in the same precise position as you. It's great that there is a large range of people here with a range of opinions, but you have to understand that assuming that everybody is the same as you is just going to annoy people. There is nothing wrong with expressing that you would like a phone with more internal storage - but say it, then move on. Don't carry on saying it over and over. And if you don't want a phone with more internal storage, say it, then move on. Don't start arguments because you don't agree with people.
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Click to collapse
1) cloud features, like uploading audio, video, pictures, documents, (FILES) whenever, wherever ? this is extremely important. look at the protests, police brutality, natural disasters, and corruption caught by cell phone cameras. without an instant upload, the phone could be confiscated, the person punished (off record beating) and the public never the wiser. cloud = power, pricey for data or not, it is powerful.
2) videos are something fun to share, with family, friends, coworkers. renting a movie on youtube/itunes/whatever and showing the funny part to a friend is a blast, and stimulates more purchases/rents normally. self-shot videos are fun to share instantly, with other smart phones, via bluetooth or wifi... and guarantees there is a copy should you drop yours in the water/mud/etc. the option of streaming that movie to your 32Gb whatever-pad is awesome, and should be standard practice now. how are you going to watch the HD 3D video you just shot with your smart phone with poor vision , unless you can transfer it to the 32Gb somehow ? this is where wp7 fails, because of whatever reason they restricted moving files around and file access.
3) personally i only keep 2-3Gb of music on my phone. most of it is synced 2-3 times a month now, rented or bought from amazon/whoever, or just ripped from a cd. music is a non-issue, with a 32Gb microsd card. <--- this is another thing I can't understand microsoft crippling.
4) yep, understood. data plans are getting rediculously expensive by the month. 1Gb for $30 ? but then pack on tons of 'apps' that eat data 24/7 as oem junk ? all the US carriers are really sucking in this requard. they have the bandwidth, they have the infrastructure, but greeeeeeeeeed is creating a suck-zone of expense for anyone expecting "UNLIMITED" anything.

Of they support as cards the whole price argument falls on its face. Either support sd or offer more storage options. The cloud is terrible. It leads to worse battery life due to the constant downloading and it can be a terrible experience if reception isn't great where you are.
Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk

I agree that there are some that may need more space but to spam articles and forums saying that the phone or generation of phones (even tho not complete yet) are going to fail because it doesn't meet that particular persons need is wrong. Take me for example, I'm disappointed that the T-mobile radar has only 8gb of space but I'm not going around saying it's going to be a failure because of it.
Sent from my T7575 using Board Express

JustinTV773 said:
I agree that there are some that may need more space but to spam articles and forums saying that the phone or generation of phones (even tho not complete yet) are going to fail because it doesn't meet that particular persons need is wrong. Take me for example, I'm disappointed that the T-mobile radar has only 8gb of space but I'm not going around saying it's going to be a failure because of it.
Sent from my T7575 using Board Express
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The radar is a mid range device. Its comparable to focus flash not focus s.
The storage is a huge problem.
They pushing away early adapters with that, and thats their only marketing worth mentioning right now (their fanbois).
The focus s has < 13gb free on a fresh boot... ... ...
Again. With sd support, the low storage would be nonfactor.
Sent from my SGH-T959 using Tapatalk

Right now the best and only option for over 32gb of storage is a first gen Focus. If you want storage get this phone for $0.01 from at&t and spend the money for a 32gb card. I really wanted to upgrade from my focus to something with a FFC but I guess I am a customer that wants too much. It is too much to want a phone with lots of storage AND a FFC. So that means I won't be spending any money on a phone any time soon I guess. Someone lost a sale.

To the OP: I do not carry my entire music collection on my phone. I do however have 15 GB of music on my phone and listen to at least 3 hours of it daily. Like others have mentioned. Apple offers more storage options so you can't say it isn't wanted. Secondly, why should the price be the same if OEMs aren't adding more storage?

bennyj71 said:
To the OP: I do not carry my entire music collection on my phone. I do however have 15 GB of music on my phone and listen to at least 3 hours of it daily. Like others have mentioned. Apple offers more storage options so you can't say it isn't wanted. Secondly, why should the price be the same if OEMs aren't adding more storage?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This kind of makes my point....15GBs of music by most compression standards amounts to roughly 150 hrs of music, of which this user listens to "at least 3 hours" of daily. Really? And this is supposed to back up the argument for needing more space? Really? And what about video? How much USEFUL video do most of us actually carry around on our phones? If I have a video, that means that Ive probably already seen it and, unlike music, have no reason to be carrying it around with me on my phone. Like most people (I believe) the vast majority of videos that I watch on my phone are streamed i.e YouTube, Netflix etc.
(and as for Apple [on the 4s only] offering more storage meaning that there is suddenly a demand, do not forget that the 2 best selling phones in the world are iphones with 8 and 16 GBs of total storage)
My point is: Unless your phone is your ONLY piece of hardware i.e. NO computer etc., somebody who is complaining about needing 32GBs+ of media storage on their PHONE please in some kind of detail explain how you are actually making use of anywhere close to even 1/10th of it on a daily basis.

That's only music. What about video documents and large apps and games - some of which are 200mb to 2gb just by themselves.
I think your point leaves out obvious things that must be considered.
Storage is only a problem on this platform, and no other. Even feature phones support 32g sd cards these days...
Sent from my SGH-T959 using Tapatalk

I love how all your facts include "I" somewhere in the sentence.
The low gb phones sell will because they're the cheapest skus. Cheaper always sells more.
Sent from my SGH-T959 using Tapatalk

N8ter said:
That's only music. What about video documents and large apps and games - some of which are 200mb to 2gb just by themselves.
I think your point leaves out obvious things that must be considered.
Storage is only a problem on this platform, and no other. Even feature phones support 32g sd cards these days...
Sent from my SGH-T959 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thats only music? Yes, as I pointed out, thats WAY WAY more music than you could actually have any realistic use for on your phone unless you were stranded on the moon for a year. And how many gigs of video (that you've most likey already seen) do you really carry around with you on your phone and make use of on a daily basis?
Like I challenged: if you really need 32GBs+ of storage explain how you actually (in detail) use it all up and actually make use of it.

N8ter said:
I love how all your facts include "I" somewhere in the sentence.
The low gb phones sell will because they're the cheapest skus. Cheaper always sells more.
Sent from my SGH-T959 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nitpicking when he uses I to try to cover up your wrongness is quite funny. Cheapest sells more? Not necessarily, the 250GB Xbox 360 outsold the 4GB one even tho it was $100 cheaper. That's just one example.
Sent from my T7575 using Board Express

JustinTV773 said:
Nitpicking when he uses I to try to cover up your wrongness is quite funny. Cheapest sells more? Not necessarily, the 250GB Xbox 360 outsold the 4GB one even tho it was $100 cheaper. That's just one example.
Sent from my T7575 using Board Express
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I tend to agree that 8 & 16GB phones sell more because of being cheaper. But when a person wants something larger, they will go to whatever is available instead of settling for the smaller capacities. Myself as an example. When I bought my iPhone 4, I originally bought a 16GB because it was $100 cheaper and then started seeing how the games were filling it up rapidly after all of my music and pictures and other media were on it. I chose to return it for a 32GB model and even payed the return fee to get one.
I know there is a percentage of customers MS will lose out on because of the lower capacity phones they are choosing to stay with. Apple looks to get all customers rather than a majority who may be satisfied with 8 or 16GB.

There will be a percentage of customers that Microsoft lose out on, but I guess they know that, they are not stupid.
Sent from my TITAN X310e using Board Express

Thought about buying GN, but....

Why does the GSM version only have 16GB of memory? Why can't it at least have a microsd slot???
Even the N1 had a microsd slot and then with NS it was removed, but the phone has 16GB built in. That was ok LAST YEAR..
I want a real upgrade, but I can't upgrade to increased storage (with GN) so I can get rid of my Zune and carry a single device.
Will we wind up with a 32GB GSM version or would it be better just to wait and see what the specs look like on SGS3?

I looked at that phone... it's just way too big. For now I will just enjoy my NS on ICS, but I am thinking about either the SGS2 for my next phone (once it has CM9) or just waiting for the SGS3.

maybe just stop listening to stupid noises, at least on the go? hm.

EcPercy said:
Why does the GSM version only have 16GB of memory? Why can't it at least have a microsd slot???
Even the N1 had a microsd slot and then with NS it was removed, but the phone has 16GB built in. That was ok LAST YEAR..
I want a real upgrade, but I can't upgrade to increased storage (with GN) so I can get rid of my Zune and carry a single device.
Will we wind up with a 32GB GSM version or would it be better just to wait and see what the specs look like on SGS3?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
and then you here rumours of another new one on the way with 64gb ........and it goes on and on and on until you realise that you havent upgraded in ten years waiting for the perfect phone that will be the best one out there for years.

bommel0815 said:
maybe just stop listening to stupid noises, at least on the go? hm.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
LOL!
Well I have 2 hours on the MRT every day + gym 3x a week... I would just like to go from having a phone and dedicated mp3 player to just a phone with all of my music on it.
My Zune.. is nearly 2 years old and has 32GB of storage. You're telling me that a brand new cutting edge phone should be artificially limited to 16GB?
I guess that's what I was getting at. I am at a loss as to why the verizon model has 32GB and the GSM has 16GB. Why even have a 16GB model at all?

jonny_rubber said:
and then you here rumours of another new one on the way with 64gb ........and it goes on and on and on until you realise that you havent upgraded in ten years waiting for the perfect phone that will be the best one out there for years.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
On that note... Why take a step backwards from N1 (My N1 has a 32gb micro sd) to the NS (which I also have) and then stay at the same level with GN?
Maybe I am beating a dead horse, but honestly the GN (other than the screen) doesn't look that appealing because of the storage and the fact that they used the same graphics chip as my NS (slightly overclocked) to drive the huge HD screen. Maybe that doesn't make that big of a difference, but the specs are somewhat of a let down since this is supposed to be setting the bar for other manufacturers with ICS phones.

Right. Why not throw in a 128GB flash storage, just to be on the safe side, right ?
I hate these kind of threads. Do you really need MORE than 16000/5(average track) = 3200 songs on your phone at any time ? Do you need 6400 songs ? Really ? Use Google Music if you really need tens of thousands of tracks with you all the time. Jeez...
Keep in mind that the future IS cloud computing. Don't go bullshitting on me now, it IS KNOWN this is the truth. So if you can't get your act together now, just don't buy THIS particular phone and wait for the phone that is suitable for you and when cloud computing is going to be suitable for you. It's that simple. Rule of thumb: if you're not really keen on buying a 700$ phone (even on contract), because of whatever "defect" from your perspective, just don't buy it.

lambda30 said:
Right. Why not throw in a 128GB flash storage, just to be on the safe side, right ?
I hate these kind of threads. Do you really need MORE than 16000/5(average track) = 3200 songs on your phone at any time ? Do you need 6400 songs ? Really ? Use Google Music if you really need tens of thousands of tracks with you all the time. Jeez...
Keep in mind that the future IS cloud computing. Don't go bullshitting on me now, it IS KNOWN this is the truth. So if you can't get your act together now, just don't buy THIS particular phone and wait for the phone that is suitable for you and when cloud computing is going to be suitable for you. It's that simple. Rule of thumb: if you're not really keen on buying a 700$ phone (even on contract), because of whatever "defect" from your perspective, just don't buy it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree with the first point you made but I totally disagree with cloud computing being the future. It is at times reliable, but it is certainly not something I'd want to risk all the way. I live in New York City where the city is heavily relied on tunnels and subways, service is not always available underground. Because of this, cloud computing for music is a complete fail.
I know you're from Europe, but on the American side. Carriers like to put bandwidth limitations on our 3G/4G and even home broadband. If we exceed a specific limit, we get fined/charged/punished because of it. Another fail for cloud computing. If I have a 720p movie, I would rather have it stored on my hard drive than streaming it from a server.
@OP: Okay, we get your point. We respect your opinion, it would appear that your decision is final. So why don't you go back to the Nexus S forums instead of trying to justify your decision? I carry a media player and phone with me. I know its a huge inconvenience, but at the same time... a lot of battery is being used towards music, so I prefer having it on another device. That's another plus.

zephiK said:
I agree with the first point you made but I totally disagree with cloud computing being the future. It is at times reliable, but it is certainly not something I'd want to risk all the way. I live in New York City where the city is heavily relied on tunnels and subways, service is not always available underground. Because of this, cloud computing for music is a complete fail.
I know you're from Europe, but on the American side. Carriers like to put bandwidth limitations on our 3G/4G and even home broadband. If we exceed a specific limit, we get fined/charged/punished because of it. Another fail for cloud computing. If I have a 720p movie, I would rather have it stored on my hard drive than streaming it from a server.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As far as reliability goes, I wasn't talking about cloud computing being everywhere right now. IT is out there, but not on global/efficient scale. But in a couple of years, with technology advancements, there won't be any more limitations to spectrum coverage, like in tunnels or areas with no/bad coverage. Also, probably no more bandwidth caps as well. So this IS the future, there's no point in arguing about it. Your point was if it's feasible right now. Well, so and so. You can still rely on Google Music if you want, because it has offline storage. And 3200 offline songs storage capability + streaming when you actually can (not in tunnels), can make your life easier, without the need of 64/128 GB storage. So you can still manage this, if you try; that's what I wanted to say.

lambda30 said:
Right. Why not throw in a 128GB flash storage, just to be on the safe side, right ?
I hate these kind of threads. Do you really need MORE than 16000/5(average track) = 3200 songs on your phone at any time ? Do you need 6400 songs ? Really ? Use Google Music if you really need tens of thousands of tracks with you all the time. Jeez...
Keep in mind that the future IS cloud computing. Don't go bullshitting on me now, it IS KNOWN this is the truth. So if you can't get your act together now, just don't buy THIS particular phone and wait for the phone that is suitable for you and when cloud computing is going to be suitable for you. It's that simple. Rule of thumb: if you're not really keen on buying a 700$ phone (even on contract), because of whatever "defect" from your perspective, just don't buy it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Glad you dont make the big decisions around here.
Crazy world, ay?

EcPercy said:
On that note... Why take a step backwards from N1 (My N1 has a 32gb micro sd) to the NS (which I also have) and then stay at the same level with GN?
Maybe I am beating a dead horse, but honestly the GN (other than the screen) doesn't look that appealing because of the storage and the fact that they used the same graphics chip as my NS (slightly overclocked) to drive the huge HD screen. Maybe that doesn't make that big of a difference, but the specs are somewhat of a let down since this is supposed to be setting the bar for other manufacturers with ICS phones.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
People seriously need to stop underestimating the Galaxy Nexus hardware, I would dare to say it beats every other phone on the market.
Closest thing would be the iPhone 4S.
I don't know why google didn't make the GSM version 32 gb, but with Google Music you don't need to worry about storage space, when it comes to music at least.
Google Music and an unlimited dataplan works fine, or use spotify.

EcPercy said:
Well I have 2 hours on the MRT every day + gym 3x a week...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yikes you listen to that much music with an mp3 player everyday? You must have no idea what damage you are doing to your stereocilia. Your threshold of activation of your stereocilia is probably permanently shifted by now. Pretty sad considering you are probably young yet sustained that much damage in a short amount of life span.
I highly suggest you take a college course on the anatomy of the ear and how hearing works. Once you realize how delicate your inner ear is, you won't be f*cking with nature by listening to that much direct ear damaging music.

@rbiter said:
Glad you dont make the big decisions around here.
Crazy world, ay?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's a very constructive and effective commentary, good job ! I bet mama's very proud of her son's intelligence.

Y'all have to be the most unhelpful bunch I've seen yet. Of course, then again, there's not much to help here.
Maybe OP would be better served with an SGSII, if he needs the microSD slot?

BlackOtaku said:
Y'all have to be the most unhelpful bunch I've seen yet. Of course, then again, there's not much to help here.
Maybe OP would be better served with an SGSII, if he needs the microSD slot?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What help can we even provide him with?
Why ask this on a forum, Google are more likely to know the answer.

SamsungVibrant said:
Yikes you listen to that much music with an mp3 player everyday? You must have no idea what damage you are doing to your stereocilia. Your threshold of activation of your stereocilia is probably permanently shifted by now. Pretty sad considering you are probably young yet sustained that much damage in a short amount of life span.
I highly suggest you take a college course on the anatomy of the ear and how hearing works. Once you realize how delicate your inner ear is, you won't be f*cking with nature by listening to that much direct ear damaging music.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Some of us use reasonable listening volumes.

zephiK said:
I agree with the first point you made but I totally disagree with cloud computing being the future. It is at times reliable, but it is certainly not something I'd want to risk all the way. I live in New York City where the city is heavily relied on tunnels and subways, service is not always available underground. Because of this, cloud computing for music is a complete fail.
I know you're from Europe, but on the American side. Carriers like to put bandwidth limitations on our 3G/4G and even home broadband. If we exceed a specific limit, we get fined/charged/punished because of it. Another fail for cloud computing. If I have a 720p movie, I would rather have it stored on my hard drive than streaming it from a server.
@OP: Okay, we get your point. We respect your opinion, it would appear that your decision is final. So why don't you go back to the Nexus S forums instead of trying to justify your decision? I carry a media player and phone with me. I know its a huge inconvenience, but at the same time... a lot of battery is being used towards music, so I prefer having it on another device. That's another plus.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The point is that if you're out and you don't happen to have a certain song you wanna hear on your phone, you can stream it.
It's not meant to be a total replacement.

look, the gnex is the best fone right now. period. and it will be. till the next nexus. get it and you wont regret. the camera and the display will just blow you away. then you will go to the bathroom and come back and turn it on and the display will blow you away again. wat can i say, it has been happening to me every time i turn it on for the past 4 days! Same as you, storage was the biggest concern for me too. But my music and gameloft games fit fine on it, as far as movies go, i just got a usb otg cable and use my existing usb key/microsd. problem solved. for regular use, i would say 32gb is perfect, but 16gb gets the job done quite well, plus usb otg for vids! and i turnd my fone on again and went "wow"!

Gsm its sexier than lte ...
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk

dario3040 said:
I don't know why google didn't make the GSM version 32 gb, but with Google Music you don't need to worry about storage space, when it comes to music at least.
Google Music and an unlimited dataplan works fine, or use spotify.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I would say you are spot on here, but... I mentioned before that I spend 2 hours a day on the MRT. For those in the USA you would better know this as the Subway. The internet just isn't good enough for constant streaming while moving along in the train and we have TONS of people all checking the internet as well so that makes your speed go WAY down even when you are above ground.
Now that my phone (NS) has ICS I can see what kind of data google music is using, but I am a little sceptical that you can use google music and not go over your data limit for the month. I have a 12GB plan for data, but I am also sharing that data with my GT 10.1 and I watch TONS of YT videos while at work.
Now for everyone else. Don't get me wrong. I like google phones. I have owned the N1 and NS. I am ready for a phone upgrade now, but torn. I want the newest google experience phone. I prefer that to any of the UI addons that come from the manufacturers. I HATE touch UX on my GT 10.1 and I can't wait to get rid of it for CM9 (when it is out on my tab). I can wait if 16GB is all we get for storage. Maybe the 16GB version is all that will come out until Samsung gets the initial demand met and then we will see larger version like a 32 and 64GB model. (who knows right?)
My NS is currently sitting at less than 2GB of free space and my old GT10.1 (also 16GB) was sitting at about 1GB free after I put some cbt nuggets on it to watch while I am at work to prepare for a certification exam. I have since gotten a GT 10.1 (32GB) and I am not hurting at all for storage, but this is not practical to use as an MP3 player while working out...
So that's it. I am not dogging the hardware. I am just questioning the storage decision with more and more apps coming out that have extra downloads after installing the initial app you are going to need more and more space.