Develop Bugs

Ouch I feel like I am going to regret

My TP2 just shipped (I guess I'll recieve it in 2 or 3 days) and I just saw today that the Omnia Pro is set to be out in August
http://www.engadget.com/2009/06/12/samsung-b7610-louvre-rematerializes-specd-and-caught-on-camera/
Much more powerful processor than the TP2 AND slimmer phone
Aaaahhh I feel so bad
That said I think the TP2 looks better (but it's fatter..........)

TP2 still better IMO.
I only thinking of HTC Snapdragon based device after this.

Better ? Mmh I dont think so but I hope I am wrong
I also forgot about the better camera, and extra memory
But yeah I love TOuchFlo + the great support from XDA, so... at least that gives me a bit less regrets (Besides the keyboard of the TP is probably better (Though I dont care that much)

Alcibiade said:
My TP2 just shipped (I guess I'll recieve it in 2 or 3 days) and I just saw today that the Omnia Pro is set to be out in August
http://www.engadget.com/2009/06/12/samsung-b7610-louvre-rematerializes-specd-and-caught-on-camera/
Much more powerful processor than the TP2 AND slimmer phone
Aaaahhh I feel so bad
That said I think the TP2 looks better (but it's fatter..........)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I read that the interface is (at least at the moment) sluggish despite the CPU, and I hate the ergonomics (tilt, keyboard) of the device. I'm curious about 2 things on the OmPro, 1) how much battery life the AMOLED screen saves over LCD and 2) what performance increase comes from the video acceleration it advertises. For now, I actually have more good to say about the cheaply constructed acer m900.
Specs aren't everything[/sacrilege].

fortunz said:
I read that the interface is (at least at the moment) sluggish despite the CPU, and I hate the ergonomics (tilt, keyboard) of the device. I'm curious about 2 things on the OmPro, 1) how much battery life the AMOLED screen saves over LCD and 2) what performance increase comes from the video acceleration it advertises. For now, I actually have more good to say about the cheaply constructed acer m900.
Specs aren't everything[/sacrilege].
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
True I forgot the AMOLED screen
Even if it doesnt save much energy, you can at elast expect it to ahve way better contrast than regular LED screens
Specs arent everything, but it is Samsung. You can expect them to do much better than Eten

Much better pics there:
http://www.techchee.com/2009/06/14/samsung-louvre-b7610-pictures-and-specs/
Aaah it looks so slim compared to the TP2
Probably lighter as well I guess

Alcibiade said:
You can expect them to do much better than Eten
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That depends on what you mean by "better". Better build quality and specs, sure. But there's almost nothing on the OmPro that really draws me in yet. The TP2's processor is fast enough. TP2's RAM (not clear on what amount of memory is reserved for active processes on the OmPro) is enough to do what I want. TP2's ergonomics are untouched and its interface has been optimized and honed across several past models.
What does draw my eye on the lower quality Acer device is that, out of the box, the biometric sensor that was designed solely for checking fingerprints multitasks--without making room for a big dpad, Acer has still provided what seems to be a very usable and versatile navigation aid while still saving space and adding a nice security feature. I suspect the TP2's zoom bar will also be hacked for similar functionality, but the added options aren't there out of the box. The m900 pulled a little rabbit out of it's hat with this one, and I think it deserves props.
I also noticed that the m900 has a built-in menu for auto-rotation settings by program, out of the box. The TP2 needs an external program for that functionality, and I wouldn't be surprised if the OmPro did too.
I suspect a lot of people will be drawn to the OmPros based on the specsheet alone, and if that happens, I'm actually glad. That just means the TP2 will face some more price pressure, and I might get a better deal. If I sit down next to an OmPro user, I don't anticipate feeling envy so mush as pity, because long after they've started lusting after the next higher spec'd device (often probably for little reason other than some of the numbers are "bigger"), I'm still going to be profoundly content with my choice.

fortunz said:
That depends on what you mean by "better". Better build quality and specs, sure. But there's almost nothing on the OmPro that really draws me in yet. The TP2's processor is fast enough. TP2's RAM (not clear on what amount of memory is reserved for active processes on the OmPro) is enough to do what I want. TP2's ergonomics are untouched and its interface has been optimized and honed across several past models.
What does draw my eye on the lower quality Acer device is that, out of the box, the biometric sensor that was designed solely for checking fingerprints multitasks--without making room for a big dpad, Acer has still provided what seems to be a very usable and versatile navigation aid while still saving space and adding a nice security feature. I suspect the TP2's zoom bar will also be hacked for similar functionality, but the added options aren't there out of the box. The m900 pulled a little rabbit out of it's hat with this one, and I think it deserves props.
I also noticed that the m900 has a built-in menu for auto-rotation settings by program, out of the box. The TP2 needs an external program for that functionality, and I wouldn't be surprised if the OmPro did too.
I suspect a lot of people will be drawn to the OmPros based on the specsheet alone, and if that happens, I'm actually glad. That just means the TP2 will face some more price pressure, and I might get a better deal. If I sit down next to an OmPro user, I don't anticipate feeling envy so mush as pity, because long after they've started lusting after the next higher spec'd device (often probably for little reason other than some of the numbers are "bigger"), I'm still going to be profoundly content with my choice.
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My Hermes is fast enough too... It's a bit funny to say you pity people going for the best specs [Though I understand what you mean: implementation is key]. "Fast enough" always depends on what you are aiming for... If you want to do gaming with your phone, you are always happier to have something fast
It's very likely the Samsung camera will be better than the TP2 (Samsung is a camera maker, and the camera is supposed to have an autostabilizer + a flash)
It is quite obvious from the pics it is also slimmer and I find it difficult to say you prefer a fatter phone in your pocket (Personally I dont)
The screen is quite likely to look better than the TP2's (However the "touch" part of the screen may not be as good) and will draw less juice (how much less, that we dont know)
I do agree the interface should be better on the TP2 (though we may see TouchFlo 3D adapted for the Omnia) and the phone looks better (I dont like the Samsung black & orange look)
As far as the price is concerned you are most likely right. However I wont enjoy the pressure on price since I already orderd my unit
In the end I thnk the TP2 looks a bit better, but fatter and with specs probably not as good, for maybe a hiher price than the one rumored for the Samsung
Dont take me wrong, I love HTC (It's my second HTC device), but this doesnt prevent me from being critical and not acting like an inconditional fan boy
Anyway TP2 will be enough for me to wait for a Tegra device (We'll need it if we want decent games... Typically the new iPhone will probably rock for this (Until tegra arrives and potentially proves to be better)

I am not sure it looks thinner by a lot. Maybe a few mm. Nothing that you can really wow about it. Samsung will reveal this phone, if its true, this month. You will have some real measurements then. HTC will also be revealing a line of new phones on 24 June. So maybe there will be more surprises. Maybe some Snapdragon goodies.
Don't be sad, I have just ordered mine too and it has yet to arrive. I still waiting for my carrier to call me to pick it up (should be today, fingers x). There will always be new things arriving and new technologies that will beat todays tech. So why be sad. Knowing that this upgrade for me is what will keep me happy for another 12 to 18 months puts a smile on my face already. By then, there will be 1.0+ GHz CPUs, GBs of storage space, GBs of RAM, Millions of colours and brilliant LCDs. Maybe a TP3 even.
This phone won't be available until 3Q. Look at the Omnia HD. It was announced back in February. It came out in June (only in some countries and not even here in Asia yet). So it took nearly 4 months. And the styling of the phone changed completely. So don't hold your breath on it. If the annoucement is gonna be made in June / July. You won't see the phone until October at the earliest and we won't see it until Xmas in Asia. Samsung takes ages to launch their phones over here.
So why wait and the long face?

I think the touch pro 2 looks better, and the design (especially the keyboard) is better. Apart from the processor, I don't see any improvements..
There probably is a long way to go optimizing this new processor also.
This is the first omnia trying to get to the bussiness people, so I am curious how that will happen. I never seen the UI but it sound really good. If it's really that good, I think it will be available via this forum for us too

cocoaju said:
I am not sure it looks thinner by a lot. Maybe a few mm. Nothing that you can really wow about it. Samsung will reveal this phone, if its true, this month. You will have some real measurements then. HTC will also be revealing a line of new phones on 24 June. So maybe there will be more surprises. Maybe some Snapdragon goodies.
Don't be sad, I have just ordered mine too and it has yet to arrive. I still waiting for my carrier to call me to pick it up (should be today, fingers x). There will always be new things arriving and new technologies that will beat todays tech. So why be sad. Knowing that this upgrade for me is what will keep me happy for another 12 to 18 months puts a smile on my face already. By then, there will be 1.0+ GHz CPUs, GBs of storage space, GBs of RAM, Millions of colours and brilliant LCDs. Maybe a TP3 even.
This phone won't be available until 3Q. Look at the Omnia HD. It was announced back in February. It came out in June (only in some countries and not even here in Asia yet). So it took nearly 4 months. And the styling of the phone changed completely. So don't hold your breath on it. If the annoucement is gonna be made in June / July. You won't see the phone until October at the earliest and we won't see it until Xmas in Asia. Samsung takes ages to launch their phones over here.
So why wait and the long face?
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Click to collapse
Thanks for cheering me up. No reaso to be sad, it will be anyway definitely better than my Hermes (Cant believe all my friends switched from Hermes to iPhone...)
Anyway my purchase is exactly in the same purpose as yours: wait for mature, well balanced tegra or snapdragon phones with better screens, camera, etc... ie roughly 1 year from now

Alcibiade said:
Thanks for cheering me up. No reaso to be sad, it will be anyway definitely better than my Hermes (Cant believe all my friends switched from Hermes to iPhone...)
Anyway my purchase is exactly in the same purpose as yours: wait for mature, well balanced tegra or snapdragon phones with better screens, camera, etc... ie roughly 1 year from now
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Click to collapse
You are welcome mate!
There will be many of us sitting in the same boat for the next 12 months. Some will jump on and some will jump off. Hopefully support for this phone will be as great as the HD, so there will be many of more tweaks and upgrades to make this phone being 'THE' phone to have for 2009.

in my opinion, the TP2 will probably be the best in its class for the year to come even over any Samsung competition, mainly because of the stability and work put into the integration of the HTC software and WM OS. Samsung has great specs, but their software leaves a lot to be desired. I had an Omnia and a Blackjack 2 and they were extremely buggy, as with most WM machines I had. But with HTC Touch HD and onwards, they've really come close to making the OS as stable and quick as possible. The processor and specs look enticing on the new Samsung, but I'm confident that the TP2 will still out perform it in real life usage. (another case in point is that I had the Samsung INNOV8, the Nokia N96-killer...great hardware, but never came out with a new firmware and was always buggy and choppy to use).
So for right now, I don't think anyone should regret picking up the TP2 or Diamond 2...both excellent pieces of engineering. The real waiting should be for the next generation of snapdragon units...

tsaojam said:
in my opinion, the TP2 will probably be the best in its class for the year to come even over any Samsung competition, mainly because of the stability and work put into the integration of the HTC software and WM OS. Samsung has great specs, but their software leaves a lot to be desired...
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Totally agree! I tried playing around with the TouchWiz and it is crap. Don't like it at all. Don't like the widgets and stuff on it where you can move things around. It makes it look messy. I was never keen on those moving around thingies. I know they are trying to achieve a desktop feel but it just looks weird on a vertical screen.

Alcibiade said:
My Hermes is fast enough too... It's a bit funny to say you pity people going for the best specs [Though I understand what you mean: implementation is key]. "Fast enough" always depends on what you are aiming for... If you want to do gaming with your phone, you are always happier to have something fast
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The device comes with DLNA, a connectivity regime that I gather is for displaying video between devices. I could understand an increasing need for speed for someone who wanted to store HD vids and TV-out them to an HD set, but there, I'd be skeptical that 800mhz would do the trick (which is part of why I mentioned being interested in how much performance you could get from the video acceleration mentioned in the specs) until I actually saw it in action. It's one of those things where, unless the vid accel is awesome, it probably works JUST well enough, and then in 6-12 months once the novelty wears and the defects really shine, the user is going to be drooling over some 1+ ghz snapdragons. Once you start looking at some of these devices on a price per month basis in situations like that, they look less attractive.
I'm not sure what games are available for WinMo that really push specs. Are you plugged into that? Is it just about looking for more hertz for better emulation performance? Or are there some serious native titles available that lag on current hardware or have settings you can crank up for better performance?
The thing is, there are tons of peeps who think 800mhz MUST be better than 500mhz, even though they have no particular application category where the processor is a real bottleneck. Clockspeed is, both in mobiles and desktops, a decreasingly useful metric for actual performance increases. Infrastructure is more and more important, and software optimization is the great undiscovered country in computing performance.
It is quite obvious from the pics it is also slimmer and I find it difficult to say you prefer a fatter phone in your pocket (Personally I dont)
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Click to collapse
If you look at girth as a single feature, you're right, it's hard to argue. If you look at it as a balancing act between features, then the question isn't "fatter or thinner" but rather "fatter with better ergonomics or thinner with worse ergonomics". In this case I'm weighing the TP2's 5 row, offset, well-spaced (and potentially better tactile feedback) keyboard and tilt ability against the apparently (are there measurements yet?) thinner OmPro without them. Given that we're talking about a couple of mm, I'm totally willing to sacrifice thinner for the ergonomics. It is a personal choice, but not an indefensible one
The screen is quite likely to look better than the TP2's (However the "touch" part of the screen may not be as good) and will draw less juice (how much less, that we dont know)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Battery life in portables is a huge factor for me. It plays into usability in a big way. If AMOLED really delivers, I will be wooed, just not before I see hard proof. If Samsung can't deliver the type of resistive screen responsiveness HTC managed in this round, that might be wash.
Dont take me wrong, I love HTC (It's my second HTC device), but this doesnt prevent me from being critical and not acting like an inconditional fan boy
Anyway TP2 will be enough for me to wait for a Tegra device (We'll need it if we want decent games... Typically the new iPhone will probably rock for this (Until tegra arrives and potentially proves to be better)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This will be my very first HTC, and my very first winmo. I look at devices based on what they bring to the table, not on who made them (thus the Acer props). So I'm not trying to attack you for being disloyal , just attempting to reassure you that the two things you mentioned in the OP weren't necessarily worth hari kari.
If someone will really rip off some of HTC's best work in the very near future and throw in a snapdragon, well, yeah, then let the disemboweling commence.

Guys,
according to today's release notes Omnia Pro has 135MB RAM.
1GB is for ROM.
That's a far cry from TP2's 288 MB RAM.
If this is true, it's just not enough, regardless of the nice screen (AMOLED), potentially faster CPU (Mhz is not everything, needs to be benched) and nicer camera.
On WM devices RAM is the 2nd most important thing after CPU or your device slows to a crawl

vasra said:
Guys,
according to today's release notes Omnia Pro has 135MB RAM.
1GB is for ROM.
That's a far cry from TP2's 288 MB RAM.
If this is true, it's just not enough, regardless of the nice screen (AMOLED), potentially faster CPU (Mhz is not everything, needs to be benched) and nicer camera.
On WM devices RAM is the 2nd most important thing after CPU or your device slows to a crawl
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yeha if it's true you defintely cheer me up
135MB is a little bit weird number though...
Yeah Mhz is not everything (For instance I never ever owned a Pentium P4 ehehe) hwoever in this field Samsung processor have the repuation of usually being faster clock for clock (Again I agree with you it definitely depends on the architecture of the processor)

Just got mine today as said before. Let me tell you. NO REGRETS WHATSOEVER!
You will see when you get yours mate. Man, it's a beauty!

The guys gave you technical reasons why our tp2 is still better... mine is much more simple.. the tp2 is still prettier and sexier....

Is there kind of flash for camera in TP2? My X01HT has white beam turning on when activating "flash". Thanks.
cocoaju said:
Just got mine today as said before. Let me tell you. NO REGRETS WHATSOEVER!
You will see when you get yours mate. Man, it's a beauty!
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Click to collapse

[Q] What would you like to see in the next HTC Phone?

What would you like to see in the next HTC Phone? Choose? And also post what you would like to see and have.

Good hardware. I.e., a camera sensor that doesn't suck, use of NAND rather than SD card for storage, screens which doesn't look washed out.
HTC has a lot of stepping up to do for me to consider another device from them. I was pretty happy with my HD2, but the HD7 I initially picked up went back to the store real quick. In the end I ended up with the Omnia 7 from Samsung instead.

Hardware
I switched for the first time from HTC, couldn't accept the Surround. Get rid of that rediculous speaker setup and replace it with their great keyboard. At least a 4.3" screen equal to the Super AMOLED of the Samsung Focus, maximum amount of internal memory (32GB would be fine with me), HDMI port.

I would vote for 32GB+ NAND flash for sure, all other things aren't important as far as I'm concerned.
More importantly, I'd like to see more than one next HTC WP7 phone (just as Samsung phones, and phones from other OEMs).
Because at this point of time, sales numbers for the next few quarters will determine the fate of WP7. And without phones you won't get those numbers. None of the OEMs is or will be capable of making just one phone that'll drive the OS forward.
No matter how much MS will talk about "sales aren't important" and "we're in it for the long haul", they are facing lots of pressure from investors, this isn't the time of XBox launch. Unlike many, I don't think that the launch was a failure (getting 2% of smartphone sales is awesome with so few devices and on half the carriers), but MS will need to ramp it up aggressively, and it can't be done by ads alone no matter how much they spend.
That there are no leaks with MWC looming is troubling.

Tegra 2, lots of NAND, 4" SLCD.

vangrieg said:
That there are no leaks with MWC looming is troubling.
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Click to collapse
Agreed. During the initial launch we knew about pretty much every phone that was going to be released by this point. The only thing I've seen this time around is that Asus phone.
As for what I'd want in the next phone, physical buttons and half-decent build quality.

Microsoft knows that it has a major uphill battle. Most phone sales are due to word of mouth (a friend has one and loves/hates it) over TV ads. Windows Mobile had a bad rap when compared to Android and the iPhoney, due to its lack of upgrades.
Microsoft needs to blow the lid off this, work with providers to make KICK ASS phones that people want for fair prices.
As for HTC phones, anything over a 4.3" display is getting a little too big (don't people keep their phones in their pockets ?)for a phone. This is getting into the tablet area but, if there is NO QWERTY keyboard, the display MUST be at least 4"
Fast, "great quality, good sized display", modern tech (DLNA, FM, A-GPS, NFC...etc), QWERTY keyboard with a small form factor. If HTC has it, great, if someone else, maybe then it's for me.
I was loyal to HTC for a while but, I have had some crappy phones, so I am open to try others to see how good they are.

DavidinCT said:
I was loyal to HTC for a while but, I have had some crappy phones, so I am open to try others to see how good they are.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The great thing about WP7 is that it doesn't really matter (shhh, don't tell OEMs). It makes a huge difference. My Mozart is the first HTC phone I've had that doesn't need a new ROM. It's marvellous what no OEM software does to a phone.

vangrieg said:
The great thing about WP7 is that it doesn't really matter (shhh, don't tell OEMs). It makes a huge difference. My Mozart is the first HTC phone I've had that doesn't need a new ROM. It's marvellous what no OEM software does to a phone.
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Click to collapse
Was not talking about Software, I was talking about hardware (I had 12 XV6800s...YES, 12, because they would always break)

A decent fast keyboard device please!!!!!

orb3000 said:
A decent fast keyboard device please!!!!!
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Click to collapse
let me drop a nice link for you then
http://www.htc.com/www/product/7pro/overview.html

To the OP:
You should change the QuadBand World Phone to Pentaband 3G. That's what should become the new standard for high end phones at this point.

I want dual core processor, 1gb RAM, better camera sensor/software and a hardware keyboard in a device with a 4" SLCD. Maybe one with LTE support
Problem HTC?

1. higher class of hardware (screen, speaker...)
2. a real IO port for using external addons (TV-out, IR remote control, bio sensors...)

Reasons for "sub-par" hardware

I've been seeing a lot of blowback on what many are considering sub-par specs for the Galaxy Nexus. I'm not sure it deserves as much criticism as it's getting.
Processor
The Complaint:
1.2 GHz isn't 1.5
The chip comes with the outdated SGX540 GPU
The Possible Reason:
The s2 Exynos apparently doesn't work well with LTE right now. Personally, I'd prefer LTE latency to HSPA+ with a marginally faster processor.
The GPU does suck, but unfortunately there aren't really any other chipsets available right now offering something better for LTE.
And keep in mind, the OMAP 4460 is BRAND NEW. This is not the same OMAP 4430 that has been in other phones to date. The clock speed was tuned down to 1.2 GHz in order to avoid delays when the 1.5 speeds were not stable.
While the GPU may suck, apparently the OMAP 4460 has some nice features in the way of media/video processing, which was behind Google's decision to go with that chipset.
Update: That media/video processing feature is called the IVA 3 -- it is a hw video decoder/encoder that supports [email protected] for h.264, MPEG-4, and h.263, VP8, etc. In essence, it allows for low power consumption while playing back HD quality video (and this makes a lot more sense as to why Google decided to go with OMAP for their new 720p resolution device). More info: http:// blog . webmproject . org/2010/10/demo-of-webm-running-on-ti-omap-4.html
Camera
The Complaint:
5 MP isn't 8
Sample pictures aren't mind-blowing
The Possible Reason:
Instant shutter and panoramic photos.
The Galaxy Nexus takes photos REALLY quickly, and the panoramic photo capability depends on that. This means the phone needs both a fast lens (search Wikipedia for "Lens speed") and likely a sensor capable of operating at those speeds. It's quite possible that they had to sacrifice in MP in order to get those speeds.
So yes, the camera is not as "good" as other phones might have, but the marginal decrease might be what's allowing it to run circles around other cameras in photo speed and generate some impressive panoramas.
Those seem to be the two major complaints right now. Also, I admit my hardware knowledge isn't as in depth as some others on xda, so I welcome any additional info. Thoughts?

For me it would be the Camera and lack of SD card.
I can deal with 5MP if it also had better image stabilization. The pics I have seen were not sharp. However, the fast AF and panoramic mode are bad ass.
The lack of a SD card is just annoying. As a developer, it would be nice to have this support.

Based on previous Nexus devices (One and S) i think NO see a
FM radio. Too bad...

The lack of SD card is kinda annoying.
The only two "sub-par" items that were listed is rather "meh." You will never tell the difference of 300Mhz. You can run your benchmark tools, but, user experience is nil.
Camera MP doesn't mean anything if the phone can't take decent pictures at all. If you're worried about anything over 5MP, then, you should carry a real camera.
For an FM radio... if it's lacking the hardware.... Tune In Radio app is a sweet replacement.
The Nexus phones sets the standard for all smartphones. This phone seems to be "above-par" to what is currently out there.

My gripes:
1. Way too close to the SGSII form factor. I found the SGSII to be insanely uncomfortable for me. It's far too thin to be so wide.
2. No SD card. Instant fail for me. It's not that the built-in memory isn't enough, it's that Samsung has a history of Nexus devices with failed memory and no way to fix it because there isn't an SD slot.
3. Samsung's total plastic body builds are lightweight, sure, but they feel like cheap pieces of throwaway junk. The Amaze, IMO, makes the SGSII feel like a chump (for reference, I don't use most HTC devices due to Sense, I prefer stock software but I love HTC's build quality).
4. It's made by Samsung. Again.

bfspider said:
If you're worried about anything over 5MP, then, you should carry a real camera.
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Click to collapse
Couldn't agree more.

JaiaV said:
My gripes:
1. Way too close to the SGSII form factor. I found the SGSII to be insanely uncomfortable for me. It's far too thin to be so wide.
2. No SD card. Instant fail for me. It's not that the built-in memory isn't enough, it's that Samsung has a history of Nexus devices with failed memory and no way to fix it because there isn't an SD slot.
3. Samsung's total plastic body builds are lightweight, sure, but they feel like cheap pieces of throwaway junk. The Amaze, IMO, makes the SGSII feel like a chump (for reference, I don't use most HTC devices due to Sense, I prefer stock software but I love HTC's build quality).
4. It's made by Samsung. Again.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
#3 has been connected with a metal chassis. If you take a look around some of the reviews, a few sites notice that difference.

kromem said:
I've been seeing a lot of blowback on what many are considering sub-par specs for the Galaxy Nexus. I'm not sure it deserves as much criticism as it's getting.
Those seem to be the two major complaints right now. Also, I admit my hardware knowledge isn't as in depth as some others on xda, so I welcome any additional info. Thoughts?
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the device is meant for DEVELOPERS, not normal folks basically, that was probably their mentality
thus all the lack of high tech stuff, except for the screen

bfspider said:
#3 has been connected with a metal chassis. If you take a look around some of the reviews, a few sites notice that difference.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Most of them do have some internal metal chassis that acts like a skeleton of sorts, if I am not mistaken. That doesn't stop them from feeling like cheap pieces of trash.

I won't be able to jog faster with this phone, as it's slightly bigger and heavier than S2.
Galaxy S II weight = 116 grams
Galaxy Nexus weight = 135 grams

AllGamer said:
the device is meant for DEVELOPERS, not normal folks basically, that was probably their mentality
thus all the lack of high tech stuff, except for the screen
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Click to collapse
If anything, that makes less sense. Normal people don't even know what OMAP or a SGX540 is.
And I kind of meant thoughts on whether or not my reasoning relating to the hardware choices seemed sound.

kromem said:
I've been seeing a lot of blowback on what many are considering sub-par specs for the Galaxy Nexus. I'm not sure it deserves as much criticism as it's getting.
Processor
The Complaint:
1.2 GHz isn't 1.5
The chip comes with the outdated SGX540 GPU
..snipped..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ha even the 540 is upgrade for me, I'm still using the OG Droid with it's SGX530 toting OMAP3 chip. So a dual core OMAP4 is a vast upgrade for me.
Plus the lack of an SD card is no big deal for me...16GB of onboard storage is more than enough for me, meaning it doesn't really need an SD card as much as my Droid does.

For a while, I was sort of disappointed with a couple of the GN's specs, but I'm now very excited. Let me address the specs in question:
1. GPU : The GPU is the Nov 2007 SGX540 while the current ringleader is the Jan 2009 SGX543MP2. The difference is that the GN's GPU is clocked at a speedy 384 MHz, almost double that of the 200 MHz clock speed of the SGX543MP2. With that knowledge, plus the fact that I won't be playing console-quality games on a touchscreen, I was pretty much satisfied.
2. CPU : I first cringed when I heard that the GN was going to have a Ti-OMAP processor instead of the Exynos, but I was sort of happy when I learned it might be the OMAP4470, a beast of a phone. Then I checked Wikipedia, and was disappointed to learn the 4470 is coming out in Q2 2012, meaning I would have to settle with the lesser version. I'm still uneasy about this aspect, but the fact that Google has chose this processor specifically inclines me to think it will be optimized thoroughly. Just look at the iPhone4 vs the iPhone4S; a dual-core, plus a beefed up GPU don't make the phone any faster, as the OS has been perfectly coded to the hardware already. The GHz make no difference in real life, aside for half a second. Besides, more ICS devices are coming up according to Black_man_x, with AT&T leading in specs for now (the GSMarena Nexus Specs leak is probably that phone) so the best phone is perpetually going to be "right around the corner".
3. Camera: I knew this was going to be a 5MP shooter, as I predicted Google would push Google+ and instant upload with this model, which allows unlimited storage to 5MP photos. The camera is also hard coded to the CPU, which is why you get 1080p on a 5MP camera, which was previously unheard of (at least to me). Some 8MP still can't even do 1080p, resting at 720p only. Plus you get awesome features such as continuous exposure and photo capture while recording.
4. No SDCard slot: I never use microSD's so this isn't a problem for me. I can see how it would affect others though. I prefer internal storage over anything, as it's fast and secure. I just need to keep a NANDroid at all times on the device though
Honestly, everything else was amazing. The LED notification totally surprised me, as I thought it was going to be like the Epic's (a lame blue light at the top). I love the form factor and size, and I'm personally going to buy the HSPA+ model. I hate CDMA with a burning passion, and T-Mobile has got a new prepaid $30 5GB Unlimited Plan with 100 Mins and Unltd Texts that I can abuse. Whenever I feel like it, I can hop on over to AT&T, switch to 3 in the UK when I travel, or go with a local carrier. I made the mistake of buying the Nexus One a couple of months before the Nexus S landed, not going to make the same mistake again

where has it been confirmed the prime will ship with the 4460?
edit: aaaaand here's my answer:
http://www.fudzilla.com/home/item/24529-ti-confirms-omap-4460-is-in-nexus-galaxy
eric b

IMO nothing is wrong with the Camera, plus by now everyone should know that Megapixels don't mean a damn thing -_- this camera is actually pretty damn beast.

i think you misunderstand lens speed. the aperture of the lens for this camera really shouldn't be affected by the sensor. perhaps you mean sensor speed.

people still had the same complains with the NS...........I doubt we will be seeing any Nexus device jump as far ahead as the N1 did

For all those complaining about the lack of SD card slot I'm guessing you don't have a Honeycomb tablet with an SD card slot. Even with the latest Honeycomb update that came out about a month ago Google still doesn't have the SD card working like most expect. It is nothing like an SD card under Gingerbread. I believe they want people to use a new storage API to interact with the SD card so many apps don't see it or consider it read-only. Applications using the new storage API are read/write. It's a change and I think many existing Froyo/Gingerbread era apps will need to be updated for Ice Cream Sandwich.
That said my guess is Google still hasn't worked out these kinks with SD cards for early Ice Cream Sandwich either. Therefore going with all internal storage and no SD card option avoids the problem and will provide the best user experience. Motorola on the other hand has taken a beating from Xoom owners like myself that waited 6 months for any kind of SD card support and even then found it lacking.

The lack the sd card is a bit of a downer, if samsung goes the same route with the partitions as they did on the sgs2 then we'll only have 11.5gb of free space left on the sdcard.

wat no sd card? blasphemy!

Nokia/WP7- Is anything new being brought to the table?

Microsoft, a titan of the software industry, entirely unmatched. Nokia, once THE hardware giant in the mobile industry, fallen from graces due to poor software. Sounds like a romance etched in the stars for bards to write soliloquys about until time dth end, right? Well, according to the press, this is just a terrible idea.
Earlier this year, Microsoft announced an exclusive partnership with Nokia granting them more power over an already beautiful OS. Numerous jobs were lost, the bad press was everywhere, but Elop and Ballmer were smiling for the camera. Things died down, a few even began to see the bright side of what such a merger might offer, but with the release of the technical specifications of nokia's new windows phone devices, windows phone users everywhere froze. They seemed to offer nothing that the other OEMs couldn't. Some were expecting Nokia to blow us away with the use of a dual-core processor on a windows phone flagship device, my only thought, why?
Nokia is a hardware company not known for excessive hardware, but rather how they use it. While android was running sluggish on a 1 GHz snapdragon, symbian was smooth on a much lesser chipset. Nokia never was the greatest manufacturer for the power in the phone, just great execution be it their battery life which is absolutely phenomenal opposed to that of most smartphones, or their build quality, which provides a durable, polished, and attractive device. Don't even get me started on the camera's they've so often been praised for since the early days of smartphones. Nokia is a hardware company to be revered, even if not for their power.
Now, with WP7's strict hardware limitations allowing very specific chipsets in their devices, the chipset is not the issue by any means. What Microsoft needs now is a beautiful device with a great camera to take advantage of the fastest camera app out there, a great battery life to provide hours of smooth, lag-free browsing, and a polished build quality to match the polished OS.
Do I think WP7/Nokia could be a game changer? I'd like to think so, but only time will tell. For now, I'll just continue salivating over the new Nokia 800.

They will bring a lot - great build quality, great reception, great camera and free worldwide navigation with Nokia Maps. Not sure about the battery life but maybe there is going to be something in that part too.

z33dev33l said:
Microsoft, a titan of the software industry, entirely unmatched. Nokia, once THE hardware giant in the mobile industry, fallen from graces due to poor software. Sounds like a romance etched in the stars for bards to write soliloquys about until time dth end, right? Well, according to the press, this is just a terrible idea.
Earlier this year, Microsoft announced an exclusive partnership with Nokia granting them more power over an already beautiful OS. Numerous jobs were lost, the bad press was everywhere, but Elop and Ballmer were smiling for the camera. Things died down, a few even began to see the bright side of what such a merger might offer, but with the release of the technical specifications of nokia's new windows phone devices, windows phone users everywhere froze. They seemed to offer nothing that the other OEMs couldn't. Some were expecting Nokia to blow us away with the use of a dual-core processor on a windows phone flagship device, my only thought, why?
Nokia is a hardware company not known for excessive hardware, but rather how they use it. While android was running sluggish on a 1 GHz snapdragon, symbian was smooth on a much lesser chipset. Nokia never was the greatest manufacturer for the power in the phone, just great execution be it their battery life which is absolutely phenomenal opposed to that of most smartphones, or their build quality, which provides a durable, polished, and attractive device. Don't even get me started on the camera's they've so often been praised for since the early days of smartphones. Nokia is a hardware company to be revered, even if not for their power.
Now, with WP7's strict hardware limitations allowing very specific chipsets in their devices, the chipset is not the issue by any means. What Microsoft needs now is a beautiful device with a great camera to take advantage of the fastest camera app out there, a great battery life to provide hours of smooth, lag-free browsing, and a polished build quality to match the polished OS.
Do I think WP7/Nokia could be a game changer? I'd like to think so, but only time will tell. For now, I'll just continue salivating over the new Nokia 800.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
stigma:
the stigma amoung developers will remain, i would imagine. bitten by a company doesn't make you want to turn around and work for/with them again when they smile and announce a new product with a new partner. but that's only a few thousand people. they certainly won't be doing any dev'ing out of shear joy or passion. maybe for a job, but i doubt the flashy new hardware will dull their memory of being wronged by nokia, and now microsoft.
hardware:
despite the marketing and constant suggestion that nokia will be revolutionary hardware, or a great relationship with microsoft, or something 'new' and 'invigorating' - to the common consumer, it's a yawner:
another phone.
it's green.
big camera.
wp7.
more yawns, wp7 has been available for a while. 5-6Mp cameras have been available. dual cores, NFC, big and bright touch screens, it's all out there, right now.
so, what is the draw for just another manufacturer releasing another phone here ?
enlighten me

"Nokia/WP7- Is anything new being brought to the table?"
Yes, of course, huge huge impressive 16gb storage.

HTC and Samsung and LG have learned immensely during the last two years about both software and hardware in the new smart phone era. It would be difficult to outdo their current offerings.
But there is really a chance, due to their partnership, that they may come up with something new and interesting. Let's just wait a few days.

lekhwani said:
But there is really a chance, due to their partnership, that they may come up with something new and interesting. Let's just wait a few days.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I bet a lot of people will be disappointed.... Probably mainly low end devices
I also predict many issues/bugs/problems. Nokia haven't the experience that HTC have.

According to engadget "possibly the most beautiful phone ever made". But I guess without tri-cores they really arent any different from the giants that are HTC and Samsung. /S

Those blue and pink phones look great with similar-colored live tiles!

arturobandini said:
I bet a lot of people will be disappointed.... Probably mainly low end devices
I also predict many issues/bugs/problems. Nokia haven't the experience that HTC have.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
um wat? lol. Nokia has more experience than just about any other phone manufacturer out there.
As far as what Nokia brings:
1. Excellent build quality & durability
2. Still best in class camera optics (at least on the high end phones).
3. Very good quality radios / cell reception
4. Typically very good battery life
5. Very stylistic designs well beyond what most manufacturers put out
6. Nokia services such as Ovi Maps (this will be huge for Bing Maps outside of US/UK)
7. Very large reach into lots of countries. More reach = more exposure = more people = good for platform.

dtboos said:
um wat? lol. Nokia has more experience than just about any other phone manufacturer out there.
As far as what Nokia brings:
1. Excellent build quality & durability
2. Still best in class camera optics (at least on the high end phones).
3. Very good quality radios / cell reception
4. Typically very good battery life
5. Very stylistic designs well beyond what most manufacturers put out
6. Nokia services such as Ovi Maps (this will be huge for Bing Maps outside of US/UK)
7. Very large reach into lots of countries. More reach = more exposure = more people = good for platform.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's totally true besides one thing:
Since introduction of touchscreens their own Symbian OS bacame disaster,
which just couldn't catch the leaders, even if it was offerring more features than iOS and Android some time ago.
They couldn't manage this and develop this OS properly, even having such great experience and potential and money.
So take nothing for granted. I am not so sure WP7/Nokia will give such amazing results everybody hopes for.

arturobandini said:
I bet a lot of people will be disappointed.... Probably mainly low end devices
I also predict many issues/bugs/problems. Nokia haven't the experience that HTC have.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Anyone want to bet that the Microsoft Hero Phone will come from Nokia?
Sent from my Transformer TF101 using xda premium

I agree the specs I've seen so far are not wildly inspiring, but maybe that's not the point. Whilst the sort of people who read XDA will probably be more excited by phones such as the samsung focus s etc., perhaps typical consumers look more at brand / aesthetics / contract price than processor specs, and Nokia still have a name somewhat synonymous with mobile phones for a lot of people. Even though I probably won't one myself, I see the Nokia influence doing wonders for windows phone as a platform as it will get it into the hands of many people who might not have considered it otherwise.

My last Nokia phone was the n80 and it was a great piece of hardware. 3.2mp camera was unheard of back then.
The software is the only thing holding Nokia back. With WP they have the potential to release premium phones as well as low end smartphones . Nobody has the worldwide reach lke Nokia. They are the biggest phone company in the world.
Sent from my T8788 using XDA Windows Phone 7 App

This is something of a do or die situation, Nokia has to awe us.

The N9 is one great looking device. Meego also looked great.
They need to quit ditching OS's.

vetvito said:
The N9 is one great looking device. Meego also looked great.
They need to quit ditching OS's.
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Click to collapse
devving for meego direct was hell so all we'd really get was ports and that's only from those who wanted to take the time to port. No matter how it went the best meego could've been is a second-rate android and they didn't want that.

We all know Nokia is going to make incredible hardware. What I'm mostly excited about are the OS changes Nokia has made.

vetvito said:
The N9 is one great looking device. Meego also looked great.
They need to quit ditching OS's.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They ditched 1 OS.

brummiesteven said:
They ditched 1 OS.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
??? Are you kidding.
They dropped Symbian as well.

I admit i only read a few posts on this thread so if this point is made already im sorry.
The way i see it is that spec sheets are worthless as each manufacturer can buy up the same bits from the same places and bung them in a shell. WP7 is always a constantly fast smooth OS the expiriance unlike droid is the same from one device to another. So what does Nokia bring???? They bring the style! I dont see the spec sheets blowing us away at all or some super new tech but i ask you this when was the last time you looked at a phone without all the specs and that and thought wow that is one sexy beast? The only time i can remember really thinking that was over 11 years ago when Nokia baught the 8850 to the table. I dont care what the specs are i need the 800 (searay) in my life.

High Praise Nokia From Gizmodo Of All Places

http://m.gizmodo.com/5857409/nokia-lumia-800-lightning-review-the-unattainable-foreign-beauty
Makes me want to hunt one down. Group buy anyone?

I would buy, easily. Shame it's not selling here, and if I buy from another country, when it arrives I would have to pay 100% of tax.

I don't get this preconceived ideas on some media outlets. Why "from Gizmodo of all places"? Maybe you only read some website because you think they're biased but I try to read a bit from all of them. For information this is how Gizmodo reviewed things before this phone:
- Zune HD: they loved it and wished it was a phone
- WP7: they loved that Zune HD turned into a phone, loved the OS, only hoped MS would update it quickly
- Mango: they loved it, just what they wanted from WP7
So really when you say "from Gizmodo of all places" you must really think they're just Apple fanboys who hate everything else when actually recent history proved they're not.
---------- Post added at 04:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:45 PM ----------
Should I Buy This
The Lumia 800 is by far the best Windows Phone you can buy.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

If it is better than the HTC Titan then it is some phone.

This is the kind of statement that always makes me question integrity (ironic given what I said above). Best Windows Phone when it's missing features that are on both the Titan and Focus S, that's a bit odd.

Peew971 said:
I don't get this preconceived ideas on some media outlets. Why "from Gizmodo of all places"? Maybe you only read some website because you think they're biased but I try to read a bit from all of them. For information this is how Gizmodo reviewed things before this phone:
- Zune HD: they loved it and wished it was a phone
- WP7: they loved that Zune HD turned into a phone, loved the OS, only hoped MS would update it quickly
- Mango: they loved it, just what they wanted from WP7
So really when you say "from Gizmodo of all places" you must really think they're just Apple fanboys who hate everything else when actually recent history proved they're not.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's quite simple, all websites in the Gawker network are known for from time to time write very bad articles just to piss people off. Because that gives them traffic boosts.
Here are two examples of articles that has been criticized:
http://gizmodo.com/5833787/my-brief-okcupid-affair-with-a-world-champion-magic-the-gathering-player
http://kotaku.com/5818213/professional-gaming-on-the-downturn-cheesy-tv-to-blame
They may give publicity to Windows Phone, which is a very good thing (for us), but I can't help to wonder if it isn't just to piss off the MS haters.

This anti-WP7 bias that supposedly exists on review sites is total BS.
Accept it people - it's entirely possible reviewers just don't like WP7 OS or hardware vs the Android and iPhones they're used to.

Aphasaic2002 said:
This anti-WP7 bias that supposedly exists on review sites is total BS.
Accept it people - it's entirely possible reviewers just don't like WP7 OS or hardware vs the Android and iPhones they're used to.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Quite possible, but that should not preclude an honest review of the inadequacies AND capabilities of WP7 without going on a rant about how MS should give up and concede the market. And for the record, anti-WP7 reviewer bias is not BS.

you know it's part of advertising right? Companies like Apple, MS and Google paid big bucks to splatters their name all over the web. In this case....probable Nokia.
I never trust any review on the web...unless it's by the consumers.

The Nokia might be a nice phone, but all I know is that if I were to settle for such a small phone, I would go with the Focus Flash. I much prefer a perfectly flat screen and the shape and style of the Flash is outstanding. Combined with a better AMOLED display and the style, the Flash is more appealing to me than the Lumia 800 and it has pretty much the same hardware...both are just as featureless, I mean (no FFC and such).

Peew971 said:
This is the kind of statement that always makes me question integrity (ironic given what I said above). Best Windows Phone when it's missing features that are on both the Titan and Focus S, that's a bit odd.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The best Windows Phone to me is the Lumia 800. The Windows Phone with the most bells and whistles is the Focus S.

If Samsung went back to some captivate-esque build quality then I'd be onboard. The lumia 800 just dominates the build quality department though.

nicksti said:
The best Windows Phone to me is the Lumia 800. The Windows Phone with the most bells and whistles is the Focus S.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's your right to prefer the Lumia 800 as best for your needs. I just think that as a media outlet that has access to all the phones I find it a bit odd to give this title to this particluar phone when the Titan and Focus S have bigger screens, removable batteries or FFC for instance. You would have to give some considerable weight to Nokia Drive but it doesn't look like it was a factor there.

Peew971 said:
It's your right to prefer the Lumia 800 as best for your needs. I just think that as a media outlet that has access to all the phones I find it a bit odd to give this title to this particluar phone when the Titan and Focus S have bigger screens, removable batteries or FFC for instance. You would have to give some considerable weight to Nokia Drive but it doesn't look like it was a factor there.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If smaller screen and lack of removeable battery were ever a negative, the iPhone should have never gotten the 9s it got in every iteration on Engadget. There is little difference between the Titan and 800; both have smaller storage and lack of FFC.
But to be honest, if I was an online reviewer and I had to say which phone is currently the best Windows Phone, I would say the Lumia 800. You may not read my articles ever again
Let us face facts, in the Windows Phone world the experience from phone to phone is going to be so similar that something like looks, camera, and colours could be the differentiator. I have been harping on the lack of colours on these feature phones for a while now. I think Nokia really has something with that.

nicksti said:
There is little difference between the Titan and 800; both have smaller storage and lack of FFC.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The Titan comes with a 1.3MP FFC.

nicksti said:
If smaller screen and lack of removeable battery were ever a negative, the iPhone should have never gotten the 9s it got in every iteration on Engadget. There is little difference between the Titan and 800; both have smaller storage and lack of FFC.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sometimes I cannot tell if you're serious with some things you say. The Titan has a FFC and a much bigger screen. Same goes for the Focus S. The iPhone wasn't compared to another iPhone in the ecosystem unlike the Lumia 800. It's not like you had the choice of a 4" iPhone you can compare it to. In the same ecosystem the Lumia is missing features other phones have so to call best WP out there is questionable when this is coming from a tech website reviewer (if you want to believe that good for you). Unless like I said you consider Nokia Drive to be an amazing must have feature.

Peew971 said:
Sometimes I cannot tell if you're serious with some things you say. The Titan has a FFC and a much bigger screen. Same goes for the Focus S. The iPhone wasn't compared to another iPhone in the ecosystem unlike the Lumia 800. It's not like you had the choice of a 4" iPhone you can compare it to. In the same ecosystem the Lumia is missing features other phones have so to call best WP out there is questionable when this is coming from a tech website reviewer (if you want to believe that good for you). Unless like I said you consider Nokia Drive to be an amazing must have feature.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It was an error on my part. I dunno why you say that about me. I thought we agreed it is a personal thing. Why is a "much bigger screen" a positive thing? The best selling phone in the last 3 years has a 3.5" screen. Yes, there are no iPhone options, but choice is choice, and people choose to own a 3.5" iPhone.
I am wrong about the FFC, my error, but I am serious that I think the Lumia is the best Windows Phone on the market.
All my opinions and needs:
The Lumia 800 is the most gorgeous phone I have ever seen. Ever. This is the RAZR of 2004. The iPhone 4 of 2010.
I am strongly considering getting the blue.
The features that it does lack I do not care too much about. My Defy was 2GB internal, 2GB microSD card. Plenty of space left. I do not need a FFC.
I want a phone that looks good, is easy to pocket and hold, has a nice screen, wonderful battery life, is stable, and has a high end camera. The compromise I am making is in the app department with the ecosystem (no EA scrabble, do they have words with friends?) but I will live.
I am serious. So the Focus S with its AMOLED screen, 1GB RAM, and bigger storage is the best one out of the three to you?

I probably won't get any of the 3 due to the lack of 32GB (although you never know since I've just repurchased a Zune HD) but yes in my eyes the Focus S is the best one. 4" and 4.3" are the two screen sizes that suit me so the Lumia is too small and the Titan too big. Also Samsung phones tend to get better battery life and camera experience when compared to HTCs. FFC I can live without so I don't hold that too much against the Lumia 800 (but then again I'm not a reviewer).
Ultimately none are worth getting a new contract for when they're not significantly better than my Omnia 7 so I'll wait and see what comes in 2012.

Peew971 said:
I probably won't get any of the 3 due to the lack of 32GB (although you never know since I've just repurchased a Zune HD) but yes in my eyes the Focus S is the best one. 4" and 4.3" are the two screen sizes that suit me so the Lumia is too small and the Titan too big. Also Samsung phones tend to get better battery life and camera experience when compared to HTCs. FFC I can live without so I don't hold that too much against the Lumia 800 (but then again I'm not a reviewer).
Ultimately none are worth getting a new contract for when they're not significantly better than my Omnia 7 so I'll wait and see what comes in 2012.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
We are def in two different segments from that standpoint. I love my Defy. It is the most compact 3.7" phone I have ever seen. Smaller than an iPhone with a 3.5" screen (thicker but in all more compact). I used a SE X10 for a day and it was a bit of a struggle getting out of my jeans when sitting.
I really wanted an Omnia 7. But I knew WP was not for me then due to missing apps I needed. Then I read all the issues with Omnia and updates. So I would be hesitant to get the Flash. But I agree that there is not enough reason to go from Gen 1 to Gen 2. Its like the HTC wildfire/desire to wildfire s / desire s.
Call me superficial but the N9 had me at hello. When I read the Sea Ray rumour I could not wait. Unfortunately, I read the unlocked version may not be available until 2012

Peew971 said:
Sometimes I cannot tell if you're serious with some things you say. The Titan has a FFC and a much bigger screen. Same goes for the Focus S. The iPhone wasn't compared to another iPhone in the ecosystem unlike the Lumia 800. It's not like you had the choice of a 4" iPhone you can compare it to. In the same ecosystem the Lumia is missing features other phones have so to call best WP out there is questionable when this is coming from a tech website reviewer (if you want to believe that good for you). Unless like I said you consider Nokia Drive to be an amazing must have feature.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
A bigger screen isnt always a plus esp as they have the same resolution and thus the lumia has a higher pixle density and its got the clear black amoledscreen. Big screen = big ugly device that sits heavy in my pocket. I would not only say the lumia has a better screen than the titan i would say it smashes it to the ground. I drive a 7 seater hyundai is that a better car then my old Subaru Impreza i think not. Bigger isnt always better.