Develop Bugs

[Q] Developing on a mac?

Hey everyone,
I'd like to pitch in and start developing on WP7, thanks to my new LG Optimus 7. I have a working knowledge of C# and have earlier developed on WP6.5...
Unfortunately though.. the only computers I have on my disposal are Macs... Anyone have any luck developing for WP7 on them? All the tools I found don't seem to have open-source/Mac alternatives.
Please don't suggest a VM.. its too slow... Boot Camp is a pain (have other issues with Apple on that one!)
Thanks for your help..
CUGWMUI

Get a cheap Dell, put it on your LAN and remote desktop into it.

Or make your first goal a port of Microsoft's dev tools for Mac.

Ok, I hate macs with every fiber of my being and wouldnt use one if my choices were using a Mac or watching my legs go through a wood chipper but cant you just emulate the silverlight tools.... or I also heard macs can dual boot windows so you could use a good OS.

z33dev33l said:
Ok, I hate macs with every fiber of my being and wouldnt use one if my choices were using a Mac or watching my legs go through a wood chipper but cant you just emulate the silverlight tools.... or I also heard macs can dual boot windows so you could use a good OS.
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windows a good OS, haha good one.

indiekiduk said:
windows a good OS, haha good one.
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Well, Linux is good, windows is functional, mac is.... diarrhea being orchestrated by a nazi

z33dev33l said:
Well, Linux is good, windows is functional, mac is.... diarrhea being orchestrated by a nazi
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ok I'll bite...
linux is unusable, however some people enjoy spending their days on forums looking up any number of random things from trying to make your cpu fan speed scale to getting your wifi card to work. That's for home use, as a server in a data centre in a pre-configured setup it's ideal.
Windows hasn't changed fundamentally since NT, even on 7 you still can't move a file while in use, sometimes you can't delete a file because it mistakenly *thinks* its in use, PCs are noisy and innefficient when running that OS. Stuff is just harder and more awkard to do, e.g. checking your IP address is over 7 clicks, if you make it that far and don't get confused by all the weird pictures of routers and globes. Even on 7 you need to resort to running cmd to do simple tasks that are a couple of clicks at most on every other OS.
With macs it comes down to the fact you can work quicker on it, there are less problems, the frameworks and dev tools are well designed, used by Apple themselves, so you can write apps faster, and make more money, and less frustrations along the way, leading to an overall less stressful more successful life. But I'm not going to argue with you, some people enjoy pain and just live unlucky lives, making bad decisions. All very strange to me...

indiekiduk said:
ok I'll bite...
linux is unusable, however some people enjoy spending their days on forums looking up any number of random things from trying to make your cpu fan speed scale to getting your wifi card to work. That's for home use, as a server in a data centre in a pre-configured setup it's ideal.
Windows hasn't changed fundamentally since NT, even on 7 you still can't move a file while in use, sometimes you can't delete a file because it mistakenly *thinks* its in use, PCs are noisy and innefficient when running that OS. Stuff is just harder and more awkard to do, e.g. checking your IP address is over 7 clicks, if you make it that far and don't get confused by all the weird pictures of routers and globes. Even on 7 you need to resort to running cmd to do simple tasks that are a couple of clicks at most on every other OS.
With macs it comes down to the fact you can work quicker on it, there are less problems, the frameworks and dev tools are well designed, used by Apple themselves, so you can write apps faster, and make more money, and less frustrations along the way, leading to an overall less stressful more successful life. But I'm not going to argue with you, some people enjoy pain and just live unlucky lives, making bad decisions. All very strange to me...
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Yes, we enjoy making bad decisions. We love knowing that if our webcam breaks we have to send the whole computer in or buy a new one. We also love the fact that our market share is ridiculously low because we offer no form of freedom. I have multiple phones with more gaming capability as well as functionality as a mac. Their are less problems because who wants to create "problems" for a 6 percent market share when they can clear 90 percent with their "buy our antivirus to fix our virus" crap. All mac has going for it is the fact that they "just work." Well, I built a PC more than 2 times more powerful than any Mac I've seen and it works fine for a much lower cost. If I were incompetent and planned on opening emails that congratulated me for winning 100,000 dollars and all I had to do was download the sign-up form then yeah, I'd use a mac. For now I like gaming, the cloud, applications that are worth anything being designed for my computer, freedom, being able to repair it myself, and not having to bend over for that nazi Steve Jobs.

If your webcam breaks you take it to a store which fixes it for free in a couple of days for 3 years, and if it isn't fixed to your satisfaction you get a brand new laptop, the latest model even if yours is years old, and its all taken care of by a hot girl. Yeh most people would totally rather spend their time instead under the desk with a screwdriver or surfing newegg comparing specs and benchmarks of harddrives that copy an extra 0.5MB/s faster. I totally understand your point there...

yes because people go to the apple store for the hot chicks, yeah, thats the case. Then they go without a computer for 3-5 days all to get a webcam repaired. Then they go back home and enjoy adding effects to photos.... seeing as how thats about the most amusing thing a Mac can do without emulating windows files.

Looks like no-one has the answer.
You need Visual Studio at the moment (AFAIK) and that only runs on Windows OS's.
Sorry.
Thread Closed as it's derailed off-topic.
Dave

Theory Regarding the Lack of Bug Fixes and Slowness of Updates

Ok, so here is my theory why it is taking Microsoft so long to release updates and bug fixes. I think the Windows Phone team is currently recoding Metro to run on top of Windows 8 instead of Windows CE. All the updates they are talking about down the road will be integrated into the new Windows 8 platform. Anyone else think this may be the case.

randude said:
Ok, so here is my theory why it is taking Microsoft so long to release updates and bug fixes. I think the Windows Phone team is currently recoding Metro to run on top of Windows 8 instead of Windows CE. All the updates they are talking about down the road will be integrated into the new Windows 8 platform. Anyone else think this may be the case.
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That'd be EPIC if it were true.

I'm fairly confident that WP8 will indeed run ontop of Windows 8.

why ?
why would you want wp8 when 7 is still so immature ? a complete rewrite again ? id rather see wp7 mature and actually be updated as promised before a new version was beta'd.

ohgood said:
why would you want wp8 when 7 is still so immature ? a complete rewrite again ? id rather see wp7 mature and actually be updated as promised before a new version was beta'd.
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I very much enjoy my WP7 device thank you. There is no reason for me not to want a WP8 next year.
In any case, merging Windows CE and Windows "proper" makes perfect sense. I see no good reason to maintain two completely different codebases (Windows CE and Windows 8) once Windows runs on ARM. In many ways there is no need for a complete rewrite as Windows CE (albeit very old) was always the ARM (or, mobile if you wish) version of Windows - it includes many of the very same underlaying principles.
What many people are missing is that WP7 is not an OS as such, the OS is Windows CE. WP7 is the shell. Porting this to Windows 8 should require much less effort than maintaining WinCE.
Since [most] all third-party WP7 apps are frameworked it also means any existing apps will work on WP8.
If done correctly (and I know, this is Microsoft we are talking about - chances are slim) it would also enable devs to code/design apps for Windows Phone and Windows Slate simultaneously. Rather than offer two different versions the app would adapt to the form-factor it's currently running on.

I think they have to. Especially at the rate the competition is going, they will have to merge. They will have to do it fast, if they want to stay relevant.

from what I've read, many people feel that Microsoft will release "Mango" as 7.5, and then WP8 to coencide with Windows 8...bumping up a version number doesn't mean it's a total rewrite...just that it adds enough features to be considered a major enough update to get a new number. For example, iOS 4 wasn't a rewrite of iOS 3, and android 2.x isn't a total rewrite of android 1.x

vetvito said:
I think they have to. Especially at the rate the competition is going, they will have to merge. They will have to do it fast, if they want to stay relevant.
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Yep, and I'm sure Apple is going to have OS/X on Phones and Tablets next year.
I swear some of you people don't even think this through completely before making such baseless statements.
There's nothing saying they have to merge.
Windows just needed ARM support, which is basically done (and Microsoft probably was working on it for years beforehand - CE already basically worked on ARM and they've supported other platforms in the past) and of course another UI layer which they are working on.
However, this says nothing about the tons of Windows Apps which are optimized for non-touch keyboard+mouse use that will be basically broken on a touchscreen device.
You can use any HP touchscreen computer and see just how clunky a Win32 application is on a touchscreen computer. I don't see a majority of vendors running to revamp their application UIs to support touch, and a UI layer cannot do this on the fly due to the multitude of layouts, etc. used in Win32 applications.
Most vendors will basically have to create a touch and non-touch version of their applications.
That's why Apple is using iOS and not OS/X on their iPad. Icons and Widgets work better on larger tablet screens than Tiles, so while WP7 looks great on phones and certainly scales really well to larger/higher res displays... It would look terribad on a tablet, and lead to a ridiculous amount of wasted screen real estate.

I swear you must have misinterpreted my post.
Who said anything about OSX on a phone?
Jobs already said that wouldn't happen. IOS, WebOS(debatable) , and Android will continue to pave the future. Unless Microsoft does something, and I'm not talking about a Windows 7 tablet.
Windows is slow as hell compared to the competition. Look at Windows Media Center, and loom at Google TV, Apple TV.

ohgood said:
why would you want wp8 when 7 is still so immature ? a complete rewrite again ? id rather see wp7 mature and actually be updated as promised before a new version was beta'd.
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That does not explain why MS failed to solve all the bugs listed here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=9153088&postcount=1
the NoDo update, that arrived so late, shall logically have solved must of the above mentioned bugs/issues. But it didn't.
What are MS waiting for? They behave like they have no competitors.

If the applications are all managed code than who cares whether it's WinCE or Win32?

vangrieg said:
If the applications are all managed code than who cares whether it's WinCE or Win32?
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There are some differences between Silverlight on Windows Phone and Desktop. I believe Silverlight on Windows Phone is a fork of Silverlight 3, whereas the desktop is currently Silverlight 4. It'd be nice to see them converge at Silverlight 5 (crossing fingers for MIX 2011). I've heard plenty of rumors that Microsoft is at work on the compatibility issues.

Sure, but Silverlight can be updated with or without changing the underlying OS.

N8ter said:
I swear some of you people don't even think this through completely before making such baseless statements.
There's nothing saying they have to merge.
Windows just needed ARM support, which is basically done (and Microsoft probably was working on it for years beforehand - CE already basically worked on ARM and they've supported other platforms in the past) and of course another UI layer which they are working on.
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You're right - there is nothing saying they have to. It makes sense business wise though. Rather than having two teams working full out maintaining two similar yet very different OSes they can have one team working on maintaining one OS running on both platforms.
CE does run on ARM, it has done so for years and it's been in use in the enterprise sector for as long. Problem is, WinCE, even in it's later versions is old tech. Not just from a UI perspective but the core OS is old tech.
N8ter said:
However, this says nothing about the tons of Windows Apps which are optimized for non-touch keyboard+mouse use that will be basically broken on a touchscreen device.
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They won't be broken. They will function just as they have always done - with a mouse and/or keyboard. You can't take any old Win32 app and run it on ARM anyway, that's not the idea behind it at all.
N8ter said:
Most vendors will basically have to create a touch and non-touch version of their applications.
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Again, no. They don't have to do anything of the kind. They can do so to stay relevant - especially if their app is the type of app that would be useful on a tablet, but they don't have to. Just because Win8 will have a tablet specific UI does not mean it will not also have the old desktop UI we're all used to. You need to make a distinction between OS and UI, they are two very different things.
arturobandini said:
That does not explain why MS failed to solve all the bugs listed here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=9153088&postcount=1
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While I agree, there are still some bugs in the OS, NoDo did fix the major ones. Most of the remaining ones are non reproducible or actually "as designed". Also, many of them are not OS bugs but rather bugs that only appear on certain handsets.
PG2G said:
There are some differences between Silverlight on Windows Phone and Desktop. I believe Silverlight on Windows Phone is a fork of Silverlight 3, whereas the desktop is currently Silverlight 4. It'd be nice to see them converge at Silverlight 5 (crossing fingers for MIX 2011). I've heard plenty of rumors that Microsoft is at work on the compatibility issues.
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True, but that's of little concern really. As long as SLx is backwards compatible - which it will be, all existing apps will continue to run just fine. Also, with Silverlight finally coming to the Xbox they have all three screens covered (personally I would have preferred a new iteration of Media Center, but there's still time for that) - TV, Desktop and Mobile. The idea is that we as developers can code/design for the audience rather than the platform. Great things ahead if you ask me.

vetvito said:
I swear you must have misinterpreted my post.
Who said anything about OSX on a phone?
Jobs already said that wouldn't happen. IOS, WebOS(debatable) , and Android will continue to pave the future. Unless Microsoft does something, and I'm not talking about a Windows 7 tablet.
Windows is slow as hell compared to the competition. Look at Windows Media Center, and loom at Google TV, Apple TV.
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AppleTV and GoogleTV are Appliance products. Microsoft did have a TV thing a while back, but that's another story. Windows Media Center is fine.
If people aren't expecting Apple to put OS/X on tablets, etc. Why would you make a statement basically they have no choice but to merge WP7 and Windows eventually?
Also, I was talking about Windows 8 (which runs on ARM, and is coming with touch UI), not Windows 7...

N8ter said:
AppleTV and GoogleTV are Appliance products. Microsoft did have a TV thing a while back, but that's another story. Windows Media Center is fine.
If people aren't expecting Apple to put OS/X on tablets, etc. Why would you make a statement basically they have no choice but to merge WP7 and Windows eventually?
Also, I was talking about Windows 8 (which runs on ARM, and is coming with touch UI), not Windows 7...
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My choice of words was wrong. My bad. I was meaning that they should do something, something faster than what they are doing. Phones are moving closer and closer to PC capabilities.
Windows Media Center sucks balls compared to Google TV, and Apple TV. I'm seriously thinking about throwing my HTPC out the window. Its embarrassing. I mentioned it because Microsoft basically invented this market, and now they've been left behind. Sort of like what's going on now.

vetvito said:
Windows Media Center sucks balls compared to Google TV, and Apple TV. I'm seriously thinking about throwing my HTPC out the window. Its embarrassing. I mentioned it because Microsoft basically invented this market, and now they've been left behind. Sort of like what's going on now.
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Windows Media Center is still the absolute best platform out there. Google TV has nothing on MC7. That said, they [MS] have definitely mismanaged the "platform", I say "platform" because Microsoft never saw it as a platform (God knows why?!). WES (Windows Embedded - which is basically a modularized version of Windows 7) should change this though. There were a few MC7 appliances on show at CES earlier this year and if they can deliver they will kill the competition.
From a WAF perspective nothing is close to MC7. From a live TV perspective the other platforms aren't even in the same ballpark.

emigrating said:
Windows Media Center is still the absolute best platform out there. Google TV has nothing on MC7. That said, they [MS] have definitely mismanaged the "platform", I say "platform" because Microsoft never saw it as a platform (God knows why?!). WES (Windows Embedded - which is basically a modularized version of Windows 7) should change this though. There were a few MC7 appliances on show at CES earlier this year and if they can deliver they will kill the competition.
From a WAF perspective nothing is close to MC7. From a live TV perspective the other platforms aren't even in the same ballpark.
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I'd like to know more. Honestly elaborate more. Media Center is awfully slow compared to Google TV. I don't have a gtv, but I demoed it. You can search for shows and the web in a overlay of what you're currently watching on gtv. On my HTPC running windows 7, that's impossible. Starting Media Center is unbelievably slow, and browsing through media in media center is not fun. Its laggy as hell. On GTV its instant.

vetvito said:
I'd like to know more. Honestly elaborate more. Media Center is awfully slow compared to Google TV. I don't have a gtv, but I demoed it. You can search for shows and the web in a overlay of what you're currently watching on gtv. On my HTPC running windows 7, that's impossible. Starting Media Center is unbelievably slow, and browsing through media in media center is not fun. Its laggy as hell. On GTV its instant.
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If you find MC7 to be slow there is a problem with your machine (either hardware or software wise). I'm running it on several HTPCs in the house and there is no lag what so ever.
Comparing it to Google TV is kind of like comparing apples and oranges. They are both fruits, but that's pretty much it. Google TV does not have a live TV option as such - you have to feed the output of your DVR or whatever thru the gtv box. MC7 on the other hand accepts tuners (either local or remote) and acts as your DVR.
If you press the Guide button on your MC7 remote while watching TV it will overlay ontop of what you're watching, exactly like gtv. The guide is also one of the best in the industry (depending on your location of course). You also get [some] internet TV built in, but more can be added by installing a Hulu plugin. In addition you have Netflix etc.
I will agree that browsing the media on MC7 using the built-in functionality is rather lacking, but there are plenty of third-party apps that help with this. myTV is great for downloaded/recorded TV shows and My Movies is great for movies.
I've been using HTPCs for around 10 years and MC7 is IMO still the best option available and I've tried them all - multiple times

I'm running on a AMD 6000, dual core 3.2 ghz. 4gb of ram. That's more than enough for media.
Have you tried XBMC? It runs circles around Media Center. I haven't tried those plugins you mentioned, I will do that today.

Microsoft's "Slam-dunk"

News is starting to surface, as I long suspected it would, that Windows 8 is going to support cross-platform silverlight apps, so apps that run on your WP7 device will also run on your PC.
If this means apps you've already purchased for your phone will be downloadable from the Windows 8 marketplace and runnable directly on your PC without further cost, then I say this feature will completely rock, and it will shake up the market. It will, IMHO, really switch people on to both Windows 8 and WP7, and help WP7 slaughter Android and iPhone.
Kudos to Microsoft for this stroke of genius.
It also ties in with Windows 8's enhanced cloud data support, which would be needed if both phone and PC are to share data in their respective apps.
If apps could sync their data to the cloud, then you could literally swap between devices and use the same apps which would have the same state info - You could be running a comic reader (such as Comica) on your phone, which has been set to read only particular comic feeds, be looking at last week's Dilbert, switch to your laptop/tablet, fire up Comica on that and be landed exactly where you left off on your phone, with the app set up to receive exactly the same feeds! It would be the perfect backup for your phone as well :O)
Awesomeness.

They are also bringing Silverlight to the Xbox (finally), so yeah - awesomeness indeed

Microsoft have always had great ideas to be fair. Their big problem is they are always so slow to deliver that eventually they're outdone by someone else by the time things come together.
I don't see that changing unfortunately.

If only we had MS employees with actual power in the company who read XDA and other tech sites regularly to see what the hordes want and implement all reasonable ideas in a reasonably short amount of time...

Peew971 said:
Microsoft have always had great ideas to be fair. Their big problem is they are always so slow to deliver that eventually they're outdone by someone else by the time things come together.
I don't see that changing unfortunately.
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considering windows 8 beta is coming out this year with a massive graphic overhaul and tablet mode, with ability to run appx and exe, I would probably think microsoft may be doing something right.
What really amazes me is that part of windows 8 can be scalable for mobile devices...something intel wants (due to the metro ui nature and easy finger friendly gui)
Again microsoft may be on to something. Heck I hate the ifad and I abhor the android 3.0 so microsoft's tablet offerings should be quite interesting

lekki said:
If only we had MS employees with actual power in the company who read XDA and other tech sites regularly to see what the hordes want and implement all reasonable ideas in a reasonably short amount of time...
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XDA is not really the place to find hordes of people. We are a select few, and a small percentage of the user-base.

Now, we actually need to see a device and prices.

well this would be an interesting change:
m$ making finger ui elements for desktops instead of the other way around.
can't see hords of people getting excited about silverlight though.
the only app (ok not really) I use or can imagine using between both is google maps. contacts, calendar, gmail already sync easily enough. bookmarks in ffox, history, etc, is this really a new idea ?

Jim Coleman said:
News is starting to surface, as I long suspected it would, that Windows 8 is going to support cross-platform silverlight apps, so apps that run on your WP7 device will also run on your PC.
If this means apps you've already purchased for your phone will be downloadable from the Windows 8 marketplace and runnable directly on your PC without further cost, then I say this feature will completely rock, and it will shake up the market. It will, IMHO, really switch people on to both Windows 8 and WP7, and help WP7 slaughter Android and iPhone.
Kudos to Microsoft for this stroke of genius.
It also ties in with Windows 8's enhanced cloud data support, which would be needed if both phone and PC are to share data in their respective apps.
If apps could sync their data to the cloud, then you could literally swap between devices and use the same apps which would have the same state info - You could be running a comic reader (such as Comica) on your phone, which has been set to read only particular comic feeds, be looking at last week's Dilbert, switch to your laptop/tablet, fire up Comica on that and be landed exactly where you left off on your phone, with the app set up to receive exactly the same feeds! It would be the perfect backup for your phone as well :O)
Awesomeness.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't think the goal is to be running the exact same app on different platforms. You can't really, the input methods are different and so are the form factors (any good iPad app is likely different from its iPhone equivalent). What we'll see is ~90% code reuse, where developers only need to change user facing parts of their applications.
Anyway, with the inclusion of Windows 8 and Xbox 360, the market for this app platform will be an order of magnitude larger. Developers should come flocking.

PG2G said:
I don't think the goal is to be running the exact same app on different platforms. You can't really, the input methods are different and so are the form factors (any good iPad app is likely different from its iPhone equivalent). What we'll see is ~90% code reuse, where developers only need to change user facing parts of their applications.
Anyway, with the inclusion of Windows 8 and Xbox 360, the market for this app platform will be an order of magnitude larger. Developers should come flocking.
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Customers first, then developers. We need to see a device and price, everything else is just nerd chatter. There was these exact same talks years ago.

PG2G said:
I don't think the goal is to be running the exact same app on different platforms. You can't really, the input methods are different and so are the form factors (any good iPad app is likely different from its iPhone equivalent). What we'll see is ~90% code reuse, where developers only need to change user facing parts of their applications.
Anyway, with the inclusion of Windows 8 and Xbox 360, the market for this app platform will be an order of magnitude larger. Developers should come flocking.
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Click to collapse
Don't forget though that Windows 8 will have a touch-optimized GUI, so should be able to handle any app designed purely for touch, such as WP7 apps.
But I'm with you on the fact that they'll have to recompile the code for the two target devices though.

PG2G said:
I don't think the goal is to be running the exact same app on different platforms. You can't really, the input methods are different and so are the form factors (any good iPad app is likely different from its iPhone equivalent). What we'll see is ~90% code reuse, where developers only need to change user facing parts of their applications.
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Exactly this. As long as MS does this right - by providing the same APIs on every platform - "porting" an app from WP7 to Slate to Desktop to Xbox (i.e. all three screens) will be as easy as designing different UIs for each platform.
vetvito said:
Customers first, then developers. We need to see a device and price, everything else is just nerd chatter. There was these exact same talks years ago.
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You're wrong though. Developers did flock to WP7. They have flocked to the Xbox. There are droves of them for Windows in general.
While apps does not a platform make, it sure as hell helps and since MS has the best developer tools in the industry ... well, developers will develop for their products.
Not sure what devices and prices you want to see, this thread is about cross platform app support, not slates or tablets or TVs or mobiles.

emigrating said:
You're wrong though. Developers did flock to WP7.
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Yes, but if those WP7 devices don't sell well they will flock away eventually no matter how great dev tools are.

vangrieg said:
Yes, but if those WP7 devices don't sell well they will flock away eventually no matter how great dev tools are.
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But they are selling. Don't know what data you've seen but everything I see indicates WP7 are selling fairly well. Hell, [some] devs make more money on WP7 than they do on Android.
As for devs running away - once the three-screens and a cloud scenario is all ironed out there really is no point in developers leaving. The Xbox is already doing great for games, the PC is doing great for apps - if you are a developer for either of these and you can suddenly release for the other platforms without investing tons of time and money, you will.

Peew971 said:
Microsoft have always had great ideas to be fair. Their big problem is they are always so slow to deliver that eventually they're outdone by someone else by the time things come together.
I don't see that changing unfortunately.
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Click to collapse
Yeah, because we've seen how well OSX has outdone Microsoft feature wise... Microsoft is always the most innovated company, they've just never focused on being 'pretty' until recently... You thrown in a little make-up with the juggernaut ideas they bring to the world and it's hard to argue that they'll snatch back that number one spot in no time, regardless of pricing... The MacBooks are severely overpriced and still sell because they're pretty...

emigrating said:
But they are selling. Don't know what data you've seen but everything I see indicates WP7 are selling fairly well. Hell, [some] devs make more money on WP7 than they do on Android.
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I have no idea how well they are selling. I'm actually not saying they aren't. I don't know. However, all I've seen so far was that sales are decent given the circumstances - few devices, very limited number of markets, only half the carriers in the US etc. etc. In order for all devs to make a lot of money WP7 will have to sell much more phones than now. If it doesn't happen within a year or so they won't be too happy. I'm not suggesting that it will happen though.
emigrating said:
As for devs running away - once the three-screens and a cloud scenario is all ironed out there really is no point in developers leaving. The Xbox is already doing great for games, the PC is doing great for apps - if you are a developer for either of these and you can suddenly release for the other platforms without investing tons of time and money, you will.
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Look, this three screen scenario is awesome. But I'll believe it when I see it. I have a Windows Phone, an XBox, several Windows PCs and a Windows Home Server. Windows Phone has this sync over Wi-Fi capability which is great. But I don't use it because my Windows PC is a notebook with an SSD and I don't have space there to keep all this music. I have it on my WHS, but does Microsoft let me install Zune there? No. I have some other music there, and I can stream it to my XBox. Does XBox use the awesome Zune interface to control playback? No. It shows me some pukeware stuff. And I have to use my PS3 to actually listen to music from my WHS, and XBox to stream Zune Pass stuff. ****, they don't even let me install their weird Media Center on my home server! Can I use my Windows Phone to control XBox playback? No. And so on.
Microsoft has been a horrible performer in terms of making their products work with each other. And sometimes when you think that something will obviously work between their products, you just can't imagine reasons why this shouldn't happen. But it still fails to happen time after time.
So while in principle this cross-platform Silverlight XAML-based awesomeness does sound thrilling, I've learned not to get too excited about opportunities coming from such things, knowing how Microsoft is an expert in screwing up interoperability.

Peew971 said:
Microsoft have always had great ideas to be fair. Their big problem is they are always so slow to deliver that eventually they're outdone by someone else by the time things come together.
I don't see that changing unfortunately.
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Exactly what is going to happen. By the time MS releases Windows 8 (2012-2013) it will either have already been done (probably by apple) or no one will care anyway as they will have moved on to tablets as their main computing device. And I dont really see what the big draw is, I prefer fully featured programs on my pc rather than phone version with limited functionality due to the target device's shortcomings.

FiyaFleye said:
Yeah, because we've seen how well OSX has outdone Microsoft feature wise... Microsoft is always the most innovated company, they've just never focused on being 'pretty' until recently... You thrown in a little make-up with the juggernaut ideas they bring to the world and it's hard to argue that they'll snatch back that number one spot in no time, regardless of pricing... The MacBooks are severely overpriced and still sell because they're pretty...
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mmm... you are partially right: mac laptops are pretty. that's not why they sell though.
they have nicer keyboards, and the reputation of being used instead of maintained. no virus mess, no reboots, no bsods. the reputation is what sells them. I've never heard any person say "I just love our new Microsoft Windows Seven Professional Edition with Microsoft 9ffice and Internet Explorer 29 AAA"
its always " sigh... I love my mac"
hell macs are usually a step behind on specs and speed, and they still sell like hotcakes. pretty ? indeed !

ohgood said:
mmm... you are partially right: mac laptops are pretty. that's not why they sell though.
they have nicer keyboards, and the reputation of being used instead of maintained. no virus mess, no reboots, no bsods. the reputation is what sells them. I've never heard any person say "I just love our new Microsoft Windows Seven Professional Edition with Microsoft 9ffice and Internet Explorer 29 AAA"
its always " sigh... I love my mac"
hell macs are usually a step behind on specs and speed, and they still sell like hotcakes. pretty ? indeed !
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MacBooks are sold primarily to college students who have zero idea of anything you just mentioned. When was the last massive virus outbreak? BSOD? Needed reboots? I'm not talking about $200 laptops here, I'm talking genuine Windows capable machines... Kids go after Apple products because they're cool & pretty, has zero to do with function or reputation... The iPhone has a reputation of horrid service, bad antenna placement, & overpriced plans... It still sells though... And Mac OSX or whatever they hell it's called now has a reputation for lack of software, incapabilities, and overall hindered use, yet I can tell you the majority of 18-22 year olds at my University want a new, shiny one...
Windows7 went far in taking function, and making it pretty. Windows Phone 7 did the same, took function, and made it smooth and pretty... They've lost some features in the short term, but they've accomplished their goals of making them consumer friendly and hip...
I'm not as pessimistic as a lot of these Microsoft/Windows/WP7 haters on this forum, I see a possitive outlook... Microsoft has never really done anything to make me think differently... I mean, people here have said "Apple will do it first" - how exactly? What 'new' feature has Apple EVER come out with? They take existing technology, make it look shiny, and market it. I give them all the credit in the world for that. But as far as beating Microsoft to something as innovated and incredible as cross device perfection? Nah, won't happen.

vangrieg said:
Look, this three screen scenario is awesome. But I'll believe it when I see it. I have a Windows Phone, an XBox, several Windows PCs and a Windows Home Server. Windows Phone has this sync over Wi-Fi capability which is great. But I don't use it because my Windows PC is a notebook with an SSD and I don't have space there to keep all this music. I have it on my WHS, but does Microsoft let me install Zune there? No. I have some other music there, and I can stream it to my XBox. Does XBox use the awesome Zune interface to control playback? No. It shows me some pukeware stuff. And I have to use my PS3 to actually listen to music from my WHS, and XBox to stream Zune Pass stuff. ****, they don't even let me install their weird Media Center on my home server! Can I use my Windows Phone to control XBox playback? No. And so on.
Microsoft has been a horrible performer in terms of making their products work with each other. And sometimes when you think that something will obviously work between their products, you just can't imagine reasons why this shouldn't happen. But it still fails to happen time after time.
So while in principle this cross-platform Silverlight XAML-based awesomeness does sound thrilling, I've learned not to get too excited about opportunities coming from such things, knowing how Microsoft is an expert in screwing up interoperability.
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Finally, someone who feels my frustration. Its like all departments at Microsoft try their best to work against each other. Sometimes they get it right though.

Windows 8 to be the Windows Phone 7 Apollo update?

Just skimming the news. Anyone know (links please) otherwise than these claims ?
http://www.knowyourcell.com/news/1219326/windows_8_to_be_the_windows_phone_7_apollo_update.html
Source ^
Text:
Jan 25, 2012
"Renowned blogger and editor of Russian website Mobile-Review has let slip that the Windows 8 update we're looking forward to may actually be codenamed Windows Phone Apollo.
Eldar posted a tweet saying, 'Do u know that windows phone 8 os is special? May be we even dont see word phone here but that's apollo and oct2012'
This was quickly followed by a post stating Windows Phone 7 apps won't be compatible with Windows 8:
'WP8 os isn't compatible with wp7 on app level (u need to rewrite all apps). Thats another os core with metro ui...'
Just what is Mutazin suggesting here?
Will we see a separate mobile OS called Windows Phone 8, or will that be Windows Phone 7 - but a newer version?
Also, Nvidia's CEO mentioned last year that Windows Phone 7 apps would work natively on Windows 8.
Although Eldar Murtazin is very often correct with his predictions, he sometimes is way off the mark. We sincerely hope he's wrong about Windows Phone 7 apps not working on Windows 8.
After all, there are very few spectacular ones our there - surely Microsoft wouldn't want to start again?"

If it's better than windows Phone 7 then that would be great, but if it's crapy then no. I can already see disaster with people having to re-write and re-buy apps. I don't know about MS now days, some one over there must be hitting the crack pipe pretty hard.

Eldar is a moron. It has been outright stated by two much more competent sources that wp7 apps would work on windows 8.

z33dev33l said:
Eldar is a moron. It has been outright stated by two much more competent sources that wp7 apps would work on windows 8.
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Ok, cool, but did you forget the links ?

Nope, no need to dig from a mobile device. Both Nvidia and a Microsoft rep said that it'd be done. NVIDIA stated it outright, and Microsoft said that you'd be able to exit a game on your phone and pick up where you left off on your windows 8 enabled PC. I am interested in seeing how games with accelerometer controls transition or if that will require further support from the dev. Only time will tell.
Eldar was speaking ill of Mango 4 months before the beta was leaked, he's an analyst, if he's right, he predicted the future. If he's wrong, well he's not a fortune teller, his industry is a joke.

ohgood said:
Ok, cool, but did you forget the links ?
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z33dev33l said:
Nope, no need to dig from a mobile device. Both Nvidia and a Microsoft rep said that it'd be done. NVIDIA stated it outright, and Microsoft said that you'd be able to exit a game on your phone and pick up where you left off on your windows 8 enabled PC. I am interested in seeing how games with accelerometer controls transition or if that will require further support from the dev. Only time will tell.
Eldar was speaking ill of Mango 4 months before the beta was leaked, he's an analyst, if he's right, he predicted the future. If he's wrong, well he's not a fortune teller, his industry is a joke.
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Right here is the NVIDIA link --http://www.winrumors.com/nvidia-ceo-claims-windows-phone-7-apps-will-run-on-windows-8/
(date is obviously old. This new rumour in the OP's post is recent. So can't say if this link still holds the same value)
Morons will be morons.

Think about it this way wp7 marketplace is barely catching up to likes of android and ios. Why do you think any developers would bother redoing the apps for wp8. Paid apps maybe but not free apps so MS would be starting almost from scratch

z33dev33l said:
Nope, no need to dig from a mobile device. Both Nvidia and a Microsoft rep said that it'd be done. NVIDIA stated it outright, and Microsoft said that you'd be able to exit a game on your phone and pick up where you left off on your windows 8 enabled PC. I am interested in seeing how games with accelerometer controls transition or if that will require further support from the dev. Only time will tell.
Eldar was speaking ill of Mango 4 months before the beta was leaked, he's an analyst, if he's right, he predicted the future. If he's wrong, well he's not a fortune teller, his industry is a joke.
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Thats a big ass dream. Entirely plausible, but very unlikely to come from Microsoft.
Sent from my Nexus S using Tapatalk

Am I misreading or is everyone else.
NVidia and Microsoft said Windows Phone 7 apps will be natively compatible with Windows 8 the PC OS.
What Eldar is suggesting is "WP8 os isn't compatible with wp7 on app level". Honestly, that would be the most ridiculous move MS could make in the whole WP existence.
That would be so stupid that I refuse to believe it. Unless WP8 had to run WP7 in some kind of sideloaded enviroment and even then why would MS scrap and start over again?

nicksti said:
Am I misreading or is everyone else.
NVidia and Microsoft said Windows Phone 7 apps will be natively compatible with Windows 8 the PC OS.
What Eldar is suggesting is "WP8 os isn't compatible with wp7 on app level". Honestly, that would be the most ridiculous move MS could make in the whole WP existence.
That would be so stupid that I refuse to believe it. Unless WP8 had to run WP7 in some kind of sideloaded enviroment and even then why would MS scrap and start over again?
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Windows Phone 7 development uses XAML from Silver Light. Microsoft is dumping Silver Light. Perhaps Eldar misunderstood and thought they were getting rid of XAML and the development tools of Visual Studio 2010 for Windows Phone 8.
http://everythingexpress.wordpress.com/2011/11/17/news-microsoft-kills-silverlight/
Also, it is possible that the apps will all need to be retargeted and recompiled to take advantage of any OS benefits of Windows Phone 8. This was true of Mango to get the fast resume. All a dev needed to do is upgrade the SDK. Change the target platform in the project. Then rebuild. Done.

nicksti said:
Am I misreading or is everyone else.
NVidia and Microsoft said Windows Phone 7 apps will be natively compatible with Windows 8 the PC OS.
What Eldar is suggesting is "WP8 os isn't compatible with wp7 on app level". Honestly, that would be the most ridiculous move MS could make in the whole WP existence.
That would be so stupid that I refuse to believe it. Unless WP8 had to run WP7 in some kind of sideloaded enviroment and even then why would MS scrap and start over again?
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Hmm....Windows Mobile? Besides its not like they would be losing much by starting over again.
Sent from my Nexus S using Tapatalk

vetvito said:
Hmm....Windows Mobile? Besides its not like they would be losing much by starting over again.
Sent from my Nexus S using Tapatalk
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They'd lose support from the developers of the existing 60k apps for sure. Not allowing WP7 apps to run on WP8 would be suicide. That said, I wouldn't be surprised to see the development environment change to something closer to Windows 8. I just think we'll see compatibility for WP7 apps as well.

PG2G said:
They'd lose support from the developers of the existing 60k apps for sure. Not allowing WP7 apps to run on WP8 would be suicide. That said, I wouldn't be surprised to see the development environment change to something closer to Windows 8. I just think we'll see compatibility for WP7 apps as well.
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I like the idea jvt put forward up there better.... recompile and carry on. It would on the other hand be a very effective weeding out process to trim down from 50000 redundant /replicative apps to ones that are solid and usable.

Silverlight is .net and the .net libs are platform independent. That means that 90% of your code is reusable either way. The goal is that you can take a shared library that contains your program logic and copy it from your windows pc to your phone without having to recompile or anything. The only thing that then needs rewriting is the user interface lib which must then take advantage of the underlying shared API. Infact it could even be that this is already the case. Either way anything in the future would only require little effort to sort out and if any w8 windows phone convergence happens that does cause incompatability, the mass amount of windows 8 support would be enough to make it neglible.

fed44 said:
Silverlight is .net and the .net libs are platform independent. That means that 90% of your code is reusable either way. The goal is that you can take a shared library that contains your program logic and copy it from your windows pc to your phone without having to recompile or anything. The only thing that then needs rewriting is the user interface lib which must then take advantage of the underlying shared API. Infact it could even be that this is already the case. Either way anything in the future would only require little effort to sort out and if any w8 windows phone convergence happens that does cause incompatability, the mass amount of windows 8 support would be enough to make it neglible.
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Not entirely true. .NET libs are not entirely platform independant. Ever write an app for you phone in C# and try to run it on your PC. Or write it for you PC and run it on your Phone. It doesn't work.
Phones use a compact dot net framework. Windows Phone 8, might supply an updated compact version. This may be incompatible with the previous version, just as the version on Windows Phone 7 is not compatible with the 3.5 version on Windows Mobile 6.5.
In fact, Windows 8 For Tablets is supposed to be getting WinRT.
Here is a negative slanting article, but seems pretty accurate with some exceptions.
http://www.i-programmer.info/profes...3323-windows-phone-7-sunk-by-silverlight.html
I suspect the tablets will also support a dot net compact framework for some time to come.
I've heard from multiple reliable sources at work and through different training companies that Silverlight is done. Development with it is just for phones (for now).
I am hoping they provide some XAML migration, so apps can be easily converted.
Actually, when reading the comments following the video here: http://www.neowin.net/news/former-microsoft-pm-silverlight-is-dead
XAML is coming to C++. With WinRT, C++ and native programming will be in Windows 8 on tablets.
XAML is the mark up language ued by Silverlight. Silverlight uses C#. But, since the programmer uses XAML to define the UI and Silverlight is used to glue it to the C# backend, something else could easily tie the XAML to the backend, so a minimal amount of work would be needed to to rebuild the apps affter Silver Light goes off into the sunset.

What MS meant was Windows 8, not Windows Phone 8. WP8 is, of course, an upgrade of WP7.
They said this because initially they said that crossing apps between windows 8 and phone 8 was possible.

For the folks that though Microsoft might break compatibility for existing apps, a tweet from Brandon Watson
@eldarmurtazin Rewatch Mix11 keynote. We were pretty clear on this. Any app built today will run on next major Windows Phone version.
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Here is the link to the same http://www.mobiletechworld.com/2012...paign=Feed:+Mobiletechworld+(MobileTechWorld)
Sent from my TITAN X310e using Board Express

Sigh... Sometimes I just wish Eldar would let his age old hate against MS aside and try digging up some useful information...
He's been such a douché since MS wouldn't let him run the official MS Russia site...

is apollo confirmed as wp7 1gen upgrade ? Or it will be designed for high ends ?

New windows phone 8 features detailed

Windows Phone 8 is looking real nice!!!
"Hardware- Windows Phone 8 will support Multicore processors, Four screen resolutions (actual pixel counts weren’t specified), and removable microSD card storage. There will also be support for NFC as well.
Platform- Windows Phone 8 will allow developers “reuse — by far — most of their code” from Windows 8 and vice versa in their apps. Also Microsoft is planning for richer version of ActiveSync as a replacement for Zune client.
App Platform extension- Windows Phone 8 will support app-to-app communication, native Skype integration and allows camera app to be skinned by OEM’s. Windows Phone 8 will also add native code support.
Data Management – Windows Phone 8 will feature DataSmart, which aims to reduce, and simplify the tracking of, data usage. The phone will automatically connect to Wi-Fi hotspots when available and Bing Local scout can display local hotspots in maps.
Internet Explorer – Microsoft is planning for server side compression technique as used in Opera Mini, Kindle Fire Silk ,etc, .
Enterprise Support- Windows Phone 8 will get native BitLocker encryption .
"
read full story here

just read this over at pocketnow. Cant wait for Apollo.
Really glad MS is bringing back a form of Activesync instead of going through Zune

rruffman said:
removable microSD card storage.
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Only thing that matters. Honestly, I get why they made the decision to not allow people to use their own SD cards because most people don't know the speed of their memory card. However, would it really have been that difficult to include TWO slots? One for the internal super fast card required for the OS and then one where the peons of the world could just insert their old 2x speed card that has all their mp3s or whatever on it. From a design standpoint I still cannot figure out why this was not built in to begin with.

"new screen resolutions (a total of four, although actual pixel counts weren't specified)" so our phones will not update?

naix said:
"new screen resolutions (a total of four, although actual pixel counts weren't specified)" so our phones will not update?
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ALL GEN1 and GEN2 will update to Apollo.

Woah this is going to be epic! Love the integration they're going for with windows 8!
Sent from my Radar 4G using Board Express

Wow, that is going to be a huge update...
Hopefully now WP will be ahead of the competition feature wise when it will come out.
The only thing I'm dissapointed about is a Skype app, full Skype integration would have been such a killer feature and really a step forward in how our mobile phones work. Would it be possible that carriers would not allow this?

I doubt that the Gen1 and Gen2 phones wont be updated because of the resolutions. I assume that the future marketplace restrictions will only allow apps that run on every resolution. And in my opinion the current resolution is just fine and I can live with it for the next two years.

sayonical said:
Woah this is going to be epic! Love the integration they're going for with windows 8!
Sent from my Radar 4G using Board Express
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It's the reason I think Microsoft is going to be a solid contender in the mobile fight for dominance. They are going to connect all the connectables. A developer writes an app, basically one app that will work on a PC, Phone, TV, and Tablet. Imagine the amount of developer attention and efforts that will flock to the platform.
Now lets see Microsoft get really smart and give Windows Phone Users their copy of Windows 8 for free. " Promo "

Seed 2.0 said:
It's the reason I think Microsoft is going to be a solid contender in the mobile fight for dominance. They are going to connect all the connectables. A developer writes an app, basically one app that will work on a PC, Phone, TV, and Tablet. Imagine the amount of developer attention and efforts that will flock to the platform.
Now lets see Microsoft get really smart and give Windows Phone Users their copy of Windows 8 for free. " Promo "
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Click to collapse
Can't say I agree more that having this uniform eco-system where one app works for all is probably the best move MS have up their sleeve. Any developer who knows the app they make for PC will work on tablet and phone's as well immediately should serve as a huge incentive to develop, and fast. An ace card up from Google & Apple I guess, though tbh as an Android user, we aren't short of apps. Hopefully though it closes the gap, especially come may when my upgrades due, getting bored of the UI of Ice Cream Sandwich already and iPhones just aren't for me at the moment. Should be an interesting year though to say the least

If this is officially revealed at MWC, sales might suffer from it. Sensible people wouldn't get into a 2 years contract knowing that high resolutions, multi core and NFC are just a few months away. I wish this update would come much earlier that Mango did but I can't see it happening with Nokia just getting back to the US market.

drupad2drupad said:
ALL GEN1 and GEN2 will update to Apollo.
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Is this statement based on information (e.g. from Microsoft) or is it just a guess?

magicsquid said:
Is this statement based on information (e.g. from Microsoft) or is it just a guess?
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I think Microsoft originally said all phones would get all updates but you never know as even on iOS some early phones can't be updated anymore. I'd think GEN2 would be fine with a question mark over GEN1.
GEN1 owners should be eligible for upgrade when GEN3 is out though.

This is really huge and backward compatible
In the article, they also state that Windows Phone 8 is Apollo.
And as far as compatibility, they also state
link_at_pocketnow said:
Update: Microsoft insider Paul Thurrott has published a post confirming many of the details that we learned, adding that despite the change to a desktop kernel, current Windows Phone apps will indeed be backwards compatible
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Removable storage, ability to use native code, skype integration, data to automaically favor wifi hotspots.
I was just reading more into the stuff Heathcliff did with running native code. It looks pretty easy (By easy, I mean for devs that have been doing dot net and COM for years.) to make apps that use it now that he did the leg work, but I am thinking I may just wait and use the official one when an Apollo SDK is issued by Microsoft.
Once this is out, native won't be for home brew only.
Hopefully they get this out earlier rather than later. And the SDK even sooner, so we can see apps available that take advantage once it is released.

Death to Zune! No more Zune!
Best news is the move to ActiveSync! Which means wired and wireless access to our files. Also I read native code support a few days ago.
Everything else is so 2010.
Sent from my Nexus S using Tapatalk

vetvito said:
Death to Zune! No more Zune!
Best news is the move to ActiveSync! Which means wired and wireless access to our files. Also I read native code support a few days ago.
Everything else is so 2010.
Sent from my Nexus S using Tapatalk
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No.
The whole media System of Windows Phone is Zune. A dedicated application may require Zune Client to sync Media.

Yes, the actually listened. I was going to jump ship but now I will bite my tongue and wait.

Strike_Eagle said:
No.
The whole media System of Windows Phone is Zune. A dedicated application may require Zune Client to sync Media.
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Click to collapse
Sure buddy
" Moreover, Windows Phone 8 will reportedly scrap integration with the desktop Zune client in favor of a syncing relationship with a dedicated companion application. In other words, Microsoft is bringing back a (presumably) richer version of ActiveSync after letting that program die out for the most part."
Death to Zune!
They're bringing back the glory days of the PPC!
Sent from my Nexus S using Tapatalk

You guys make me laugh....
I'm still waiting for 8107 and you are talking about Windows 8. LOL. When has MS ever met a freak'n date?

vetvito said:
Sure buddy
" Moreover, Windows Phone 8 will reportedly scrap integration with the desktop Zune client in favor of a syncing relationship with a dedicated companion application. In other words, Microsoft is bringing back a (presumably) richer version of ActiveSync after letting that program die out for the most part."
Death to Zune!
They're bringing back the glory days of the PPC!
Sent from my Nexus S using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm betting zune will still be around, just not required. it will be a music client only and still have phone integration. They put to much into zune and they will need a music service to compete with itunes. the name will die though. It will be Microsoft music as seen on windows 8
http://zunited.net/rss/?p=84