Develop Bugs

Windows Phone 7... WTF

Anyone seen the article at PPCGeeks.com about Windows Phone 7??
I cant believe the crap Microsoft is trying to pull...
-At the Mobile World Congress event on February 15th, 2010, Windows Phone 7 will be unveilved, although at this time plans are only to unveil the user interface of the new platform . Specific indepth functionality of the device will most likely not be shown.
-The User Interface is based upon codename “METRO”. It will be very similar to the Zune HD User Interface with a complete revamp of the “Start” screen. The UI is “Very Clean”, “Soulful” and “Alive”
-Unfortunately there will be no Flash support at the get go as there was not enough time to implement these features.
-Windows Phone 7 will only support application installation through service based delivery. (i.e Marketplace). Application installation via storage card will not be possible.
- No Multi-Task support. Applications will “Pause” when in the background, however will support notifications via push notifications.
-Marketplace will now support “try before you buy” as well as an API
-No NETCF backwards compatibility. This means the original rumor of no backward compatibility for applications holds to be true. That being said, there are high hopes of porting the NetCF to the newer platform easily.
-Microsoft is confident that devices will be ready by September 2010
-Full Zune Integration
-Windows Mobile Device Center will no longer be used. Zune software to take over syncing via PC.
-OEM Interfaces will not be allowed to run on the device. Say goodbye to Sense UI / SPB Mobile Shell / Point UI / Infinity, etc, etc
-Full XBOX Gaming Integration (Gamer tag, achievements, friends, avatars, merchandising, etc)
-Full support for social networking
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Looks like I will be making my next phone purchase based on WinMo6 and Android... Prob wont ever go to WinMo7...

i wouldnt believe any rumors that come out until microsoft confirms it. there have been so many different rumors from respectable sources and they all contradict each other. who to believe? no one

I don't want an iPhone from my Windows phone!

lol. I may use Android but I was looking at WM and thinking "That is a way better work phone than a Blackberry." but after reading those new rumors I am starting to doubt that.
I hope they are wrong since we don't need another iFail on the market but I can tell you one thing. HTC won't stand for that. They will mask all the ugly with their gorgeous HTC SENSE.

Yes but if u read that
-OEM Interfaces will not be allowed to run on the device. Say goodbye to Sense UI / SPB Mobile Shell / Point UI / Infinity, etc, etc
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So? I think we will see, because HD2 is running with sense, and i don't thing that official update to WM 7 will be something like that.

Oh whatever!...
honestly, why are you surprised?
Look at the success of the other companies and OS's who use similar strategies.
Lock down the device = enhanced and specific support for hardware, and etc., specifically hardware.
ZuneHD is a perfect example. I thought about getting one (for about 5 minutes) because of that sweet'n'sexy little tegra chip. MS couldn't have made that run as smooth & efficiently on a CE5.x base.
I will probably not get one of these phones either (unless they've not leaked some amazing feature like a free MS Surface Table with purchase of every WinPhone7, haha).
Though, I do wish MS the best of luck trying to deliver Proprietary content and software in a prettier way than Apple. I mean lets face it: Apple tends to slap handcuffs on it's customers and they still wanna dance. Hope MS's mobile department has been talking to the Xbox360's marketing Dept.

-OEM Interfaces will not be allowed to run on the device
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One of the many things I love about my phone is that I can change interfaces, get unique interfaces, and duplicate other phone's interfaces. lets hope this is only one version of Windows 7. It looks they are taking the iphone direction - make the phone idiot proof and lock it down

Haha sounds like someone is making fun of us and posts all that sucks on the iPhone OS:
-Unfortunately there will be no Flash support at the get go as there was not
enough time to implement these features.
-Windows Phone 7 will only support application installation through service based delivery. (i.e Marketplace). Application installation via storage card will not be possible.
- No Multi-Task support. Applications will “Pause” when in the background, however will support notifications via push notifications.

WM7
Hmm.. I see Microsoft Iphone

Well if that is true then I will be staying with winmo 6.1/6.5 and Android forever The HD2 is such a powerful beast, I hope Android will be fully ported to it...
Imagine dual booting WM6.5 & Android on the HD2 with it's powerful cpu & large clear capacitive screen!! Then WinMO 7 can go and die a slow death, I wouldn't care

UGH
I fear the future also, as many do. (of the wm os) Microsoft ~ Windows Mobile has a niche for getting things wrong pretty much all the time. I read a rather creditable article that the new sync software was to be the Zune software? WTF my Zune syncs wrong almost all the time especially this last time and the other last time...UGH I fear the future of Windows Mobile and hope they get there heads out of there A$$ and step it up. I've had to call Zune support multiple times and also have to yet to date. (again ugh)
~Windows Mobile Device Center will no longer be used. Zune software to take over syncing via PC.....?????
~DJyoSNOW~
~PLUR~ Peace Love Unity Respect

If it becomes true, then I will stick on WM 6.5 on the HD2. However, things may change, it could be fake, it could be hackable.

this looks fake... in fact i agree that someone listed all the things that suck on the iphone and wrote "windows phone 7" all over it.
these points look like from an US-centered point of view. i mean - marketplace?! it's crap all over the world and nearly empty, EXCEPT in the US. zune?! it has been released only where? exactly, again the US.
no OEM-gui allowed? if that were to be true, htc would've already announced to stop making winmo-phones.
nah, this is fake...

Just a Rumor
We still need to wait and see, this is a rumor. I think most people on here would not stand for an Iphone like OS and would move to android instead if Windows did that. I kinda believe they will have a duel os model and this description would fit the model for the media targeted devices. A professional-like version would keep alot of what we love alive and give us some of what we are hoping for.

Look what Apple did and how successful they are with those iPhone and iPod Touch.
But I doubt it is true, those rumors are (at least half of them) fake .

omg!!! no multi-task..

I don't think Microsoft will do this.
They must be crazy to.. If they do this, the 'enthusiast' users (the people currently still holding up Windows Mobile on their hands) will drop the new OS and MS would have to start all over again. Why would users choose for their OS while there are no advantages any longer?
Maybe this is the spec of some limited media/Zune version of the OS, not the PRO version, if these are actually true.
Might aswell be some bashing done by an iPhone/Andoid fanboy that got picked up further down the pipe.

I don't believe all of it. I think those are just rumors from the anti-MS people.
If MS ever wanted to make Windows to be like a MAC OS, they would have done it long ago. I don't think they will do such thing in the Mobile branch neither.
I would think(hope) it will be something like:
Windows Phone = Windows 7 Home (for the grandpas)
Windows Phone Pro = Windows 7 Ultimate/Pro (for the enthusiasts/geeks)

i doubt that there is not going to be any Multi-Tasking. thats what "Windows" is all about. probably all BS

OndraSter said:
Look what Apple did and how successful they are with those iPhone and iPod Touch.
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Yep, but just take a look why ppl are still sticking with the pretty outdated windows mobile. Because of an open system, not this closed sh*t. Seriously, why should anybody pick Windows Mobile 7 with the same shortcomings as the iPhone, when the iPhone got perfected for 4 years prior to the new MS OS ... with a whole more of useful apps.
But since android is a nice alternative with lots of customization-options and multitasking, I don't really care about MS f*cking up Windows Mobile 7. Would be nice if they didn't though ...

Theory Regarding the Lack of Bug Fixes and Slowness of Updates

Ok, so here is my theory why it is taking Microsoft so long to release updates and bug fixes. I think the Windows Phone team is currently recoding Metro to run on top of Windows 8 instead of Windows CE. All the updates they are talking about down the road will be integrated into the new Windows 8 platform. Anyone else think this may be the case.

randude said:
Ok, so here is my theory why it is taking Microsoft so long to release updates and bug fixes. I think the Windows Phone team is currently recoding Metro to run on top of Windows 8 instead of Windows CE. All the updates they are talking about down the road will be integrated into the new Windows 8 platform. Anyone else think this may be the case.
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That'd be EPIC if it were true.

I'm fairly confident that WP8 will indeed run ontop of Windows 8.

why ?
why would you want wp8 when 7 is still so immature ? a complete rewrite again ? id rather see wp7 mature and actually be updated as promised before a new version was beta'd.

ohgood said:
why would you want wp8 when 7 is still so immature ? a complete rewrite again ? id rather see wp7 mature and actually be updated as promised before a new version was beta'd.
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I very much enjoy my WP7 device thank you. There is no reason for me not to want a WP8 next year.
In any case, merging Windows CE and Windows "proper" makes perfect sense. I see no good reason to maintain two completely different codebases (Windows CE and Windows 8) once Windows runs on ARM. In many ways there is no need for a complete rewrite as Windows CE (albeit very old) was always the ARM (or, mobile if you wish) version of Windows - it includes many of the very same underlaying principles.
What many people are missing is that WP7 is not an OS as such, the OS is Windows CE. WP7 is the shell. Porting this to Windows 8 should require much less effort than maintaining WinCE.
Since [most] all third-party WP7 apps are frameworked it also means any existing apps will work on WP8.
If done correctly (and I know, this is Microsoft we are talking about - chances are slim) it would also enable devs to code/design apps for Windows Phone and Windows Slate simultaneously. Rather than offer two different versions the app would adapt to the form-factor it's currently running on.

I think they have to. Especially at the rate the competition is going, they will have to merge. They will have to do it fast, if they want to stay relevant.

from what I've read, many people feel that Microsoft will release "Mango" as 7.5, and then WP8 to coencide with Windows 8...bumping up a version number doesn't mean it's a total rewrite...just that it adds enough features to be considered a major enough update to get a new number. For example, iOS 4 wasn't a rewrite of iOS 3, and android 2.x isn't a total rewrite of android 1.x

vetvito said:
I think they have to. Especially at the rate the competition is going, they will have to merge. They will have to do it fast, if they want to stay relevant.
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Yep, and I'm sure Apple is going to have OS/X on Phones and Tablets next year.
I swear some of you people don't even think this through completely before making such baseless statements.
There's nothing saying they have to merge.
Windows just needed ARM support, which is basically done (and Microsoft probably was working on it for years beforehand - CE already basically worked on ARM and they've supported other platforms in the past) and of course another UI layer which they are working on.
However, this says nothing about the tons of Windows Apps which are optimized for non-touch keyboard+mouse use that will be basically broken on a touchscreen device.
You can use any HP touchscreen computer and see just how clunky a Win32 application is on a touchscreen computer. I don't see a majority of vendors running to revamp their application UIs to support touch, and a UI layer cannot do this on the fly due to the multitude of layouts, etc. used in Win32 applications.
Most vendors will basically have to create a touch and non-touch version of their applications.
That's why Apple is using iOS and not OS/X on their iPad. Icons and Widgets work better on larger tablet screens than Tiles, so while WP7 looks great on phones and certainly scales really well to larger/higher res displays... It would look terribad on a tablet, and lead to a ridiculous amount of wasted screen real estate.

I swear you must have misinterpreted my post.
Who said anything about OSX on a phone?
Jobs already said that wouldn't happen. IOS, WebOS(debatable) , and Android will continue to pave the future. Unless Microsoft does something, and I'm not talking about a Windows 7 tablet.
Windows is slow as hell compared to the competition. Look at Windows Media Center, and loom at Google TV, Apple TV.

ohgood said:
why would you want wp8 when 7 is still so immature ? a complete rewrite again ? id rather see wp7 mature and actually be updated as promised before a new version was beta'd.
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That does not explain why MS failed to solve all the bugs listed here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=9153088&postcount=1
the NoDo update, that arrived so late, shall logically have solved must of the above mentioned bugs/issues. But it didn't.
What are MS waiting for? They behave like they have no competitors.

If the applications are all managed code than who cares whether it's WinCE or Win32?

vangrieg said:
If the applications are all managed code than who cares whether it's WinCE or Win32?
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There are some differences between Silverlight on Windows Phone and Desktop. I believe Silverlight on Windows Phone is a fork of Silverlight 3, whereas the desktop is currently Silverlight 4. It'd be nice to see them converge at Silverlight 5 (crossing fingers for MIX 2011). I've heard plenty of rumors that Microsoft is at work on the compatibility issues.

Sure, but Silverlight can be updated with or without changing the underlying OS.

N8ter said:
I swear some of you people don't even think this through completely before making such baseless statements.
There's nothing saying they have to merge.
Windows just needed ARM support, which is basically done (and Microsoft probably was working on it for years beforehand - CE already basically worked on ARM and they've supported other platforms in the past) and of course another UI layer which they are working on.
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You're right - there is nothing saying they have to. It makes sense business wise though. Rather than having two teams working full out maintaining two similar yet very different OSes they can have one team working on maintaining one OS running on both platforms.
CE does run on ARM, it has done so for years and it's been in use in the enterprise sector for as long. Problem is, WinCE, even in it's later versions is old tech. Not just from a UI perspective but the core OS is old tech.
N8ter said:
However, this says nothing about the tons of Windows Apps which are optimized for non-touch keyboard+mouse use that will be basically broken on a touchscreen device.
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They won't be broken. They will function just as they have always done - with a mouse and/or keyboard. You can't take any old Win32 app and run it on ARM anyway, that's not the idea behind it at all.
N8ter said:
Most vendors will basically have to create a touch and non-touch version of their applications.
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Again, no. They don't have to do anything of the kind. They can do so to stay relevant - especially if their app is the type of app that would be useful on a tablet, but they don't have to. Just because Win8 will have a tablet specific UI does not mean it will not also have the old desktop UI we're all used to. You need to make a distinction between OS and UI, they are two very different things.
arturobandini said:
That does not explain why MS failed to solve all the bugs listed here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=9153088&postcount=1
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While I agree, there are still some bugs in the OS, NoDo did fix the major ones. Most of the remaining ones are non reproducible or actually "as designed". Also, many of them are not OS bugs but rather bugs that only appear on certain handsets.
PG2G said:
There are some differences between Silverlight on Windows Phone and Desktop. I believe Silverlight on Windows Phone is a fork of Silverlight 3, whereas the desktop is currently Silverlight 4. It'd be nice to see them converge at Silverlight 5 (crossing fingers for MIX 2011). I've heard plenty of rumors that Microsoft is at work on the compatibility issues.
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True, but that's of little concern really. As long as SLx is backwards compatible - which it will be, all existing apps will continue to run just fine. Also, with Silverlight finally coming to the Xbox they have all three screens covered (personally I would have preferred a new iteration of Media Center, but there's still time for that) - TV, Desktop and Mobile. The idea is that we as developers can code/design for the audience rather than the platform. Great things ahead if you ask me.

vetvito said:
I swear you must have misinterpreted my post.
Who said anything about OSX on a phone?
Jobs already said that wouldn't happen. IOS, WebOS(debatable) , and Android will continue to pave the future. Unless Microsoft does something, and I'm not talking about a Windows 7 tablet.
Windows is slow as hell compared to the competition. Look at Windows Media Center, and loom at Google TV, Apple TV.
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AppleTV and GoogleTV are Appliance products. Microsoft did have a TV thing a while back, but that's another story. Windows Media Center is fine.
If people aren't expecting Apple to put OS/X on tablets, etc. Why would you make a statement basically they have no choice but to merge WP7 and Windows eventually?
Also, I was talking about Windows 8 (which runs on ARM, and is coming with touch UI), not Windows 7...

N8ter said:
AppleTV and GoogleTV are Appliance products. Microsoft did have a TV thing a while back, but that's another story. Windows Media Center is fine.
If people aren't expecting Apple to put OS/X on tablets, etc. Why would you make a statement basically they have no choice but to merge WP7 and Windows eventually?
Also, I was talking about Windows 8 (which runs on ARM, and is coming with touch UI), not Windows 7...
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My choice of words was wrong. My bad. I was meaning that they should do something, something faster than what they are doing. Phones are moving closer and closer to PC capabilities.
Windows Media Center sucks balls compared to Google TV, and Apple TV. I'm seriously thinking about throwing my HTPC out the window. Its embarrassing. I mentioned it because Microsoft basically invented this market, and now they've been left behind. Sort of like what's going on now.

vetvito said:
Windows Media Center sucks balls compared to Google TV, and Apple TV. I'm seriously thinking about throwing my HTPC out the window. Its embarrassing. I mentioned it because Microsoft basically invented this market, and now they've been left behind. Sort of like what's going on now.
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Windows Media Center is still the absolute best platform out there. Google TV has nothing on MC7. That said, they [MS] have definitely mismanaged the "platform", I say "platform" because Microsoft never saw it as a platform (God knows why?!). WES (Windows Embedded - which is basically a modularized version of Windows 7) should change this though. There were a few MC7 appliances on show at CES earlier this year and if they can deliver they will kill the competition.
From a WAF perspective nothing is close to MC7. From a live TV perspective the other platforms aren't even in the same ballpark.

emigrating said:
Windows Media Center is still the absolute best platform out there. Google TV has nothing on MC7. That said, they [MS] have definitely mismanaged the "platform", I say "platform" because Microsoft never saw it as a platform (God knows why?!). WES (Windows Embedded - which is basically a modularized version of Windows 7) should change this though. There were a few MC7 appliances on show at CES earlier this year and if they can deliver they will kill the competition.
From a WAF perspective nothing is close to MC7. From a live TV perspective the other platforms aren't even in the same ballpark.
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I'd like to know more. Honestly elaborate more. Media Center is awfully slow compared to Google TV. I don't have a gtv, but I demoed it. You can search for shows and the web in a overlay of what you're currently watching on gtv. On my HTPC running windows 7, that's impossible. Starting Media Center is unbelievably slow, and browsing through media in media center is not fun. Its laggy as hell. On GTV its instant.

vetvito said:
I'd like to know more. Honestly elaborate more. Media Center is awfully slow compared to Google TV. I don't have a gtv, but I demoed it. You can search for shows and the web in a overlay of what you're currently watching on gtv. On my HTPC running windows 7, that's impossible. Starting Media Center is unbelievably slow, and browsing through media in media center is not fun. Its laggy as hell. On GTV its instant.
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If you find MC7 to be slow there is a problem with your machine (either hardware or software wise). I'm running it on several HTPCs in the house and there is no lag what so ever.
Comparing it to Google TV is kind of like comparing apples and oranges. They are both fruits, but that's pretty much it. Google TV does not have a live TV option as such - you have to feed the output of your DVR or whatever thru the gtv box. MC7 on the other hand accepts tuners (either local or remote) and acts as your DVR.
If you press the Guide button on your MC7 remote while watching TV it will overlay ontop of what you're watching, exactly like gtv. The guide is also one of the best in the industry (depending on your location of course). You also get [some] internet TV built in, but more can be added by installing a Hulu plugin. In addition you have Netflix etc.
I will agree that browsing the media on MC7 using the built-in functionality is rather lacking, but there are plenty of third-party apps that help with this. myTV is great for downloaded/recorded TV shows and My Movies is great for movies.
I've been using HTPCs for around 10 years and MC7 is IMO still the best option available and I've tried them all - multiple times

I'm running on a AMD 6000, dual core 3.2 ghz. 4gb of ram. That's more than enough for media.
Have you tried XBMC? It runs circles around Media Center. I haven't tried those plugins you mentioned, I will do that today.

New windows phone 8 features detailed

Windows Phone 8 is looking real nice!!!
"Hardware- Windows Phone 8 will support Multicore processors, Four screen resolutions (actual pixel counts weren’t specified), and removable microSD card storage. There will also be support for NFC as well.
Platform- Windows Phone 8 will allow developers “reuse — by far — most of their code” from Windows 8 and vice versa in their apps. Also Microsoft is planning for richer version of ActiveSync as a replacement for Zune client.
App Platform extension- Windows Phone 8 will support app-to-app communication, native Skype integration and allows camera app to be skinned by OEM’s. Windows Phone 8 will also add native code support.
Data Management – Windows Phone 8 will feature DataSmart, which aims to reduce, and simplify the tracking of, data usage. The phone will automatically connect to Wi-Fi hotspots when available and Bing Local scout can display local hotspots in maps.
Internet Explorer – Microsoft is planning for server side compression technique as used in Opera Mini, Kindle Fire Silk ,etc, .
Enterprise Support- Windows Phone 8 will get native BitLocker encryption .
"
read full story here

just read this over at pocketnow. Cant wait for Apollo.
Really glad MS is bringing back a form of Activesync instead of going through Zune

rruffman said:
removable microSD card storage.
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Only thing that matters. Honestly, I get why they made the decision to not allow people to use their own SD cards because most people don't know the speed of their memory card. However, would it really have been that difficult to include TWO slots? One for the internal super fast card required for the OS and then one where the peons of the world could just insert their old 2x speed card that has all their mp3s or whatever on it. From a design standpoint I still cannot figure out why this was not built in to begin with.

"new screen resolutions (a total of four, although actual pixel counts weren't specified)" so our phones will not update?

naix said:
"new screen resolutions (a total of four, although actual pixel counts weren't specified)" so our phones will not update?
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ALL GEN1 and GEN2 will update to Apollo.

Woah this is going to be epic! Love the integration they're going for with windows 8!
Sent from my Radar 4G using Board Express

Wow, that is going to be a huge update...
Hopefully now WP will be ahead of the competition feature wise when it will come out.
The only thing I'm dissapointed about is a Skype app, full Skype integration would have been such a killer feature and really a step forward in how our mobile phones work. Would it be possible that carriers would not allow this?

I doubt that the Gen1 and Gen2 phones wont be updated because of the resolutions. I assume that the future marketplace restrictions will only allow apps that run on every resolution. And in my opinion the current resolution is just fine and I can live with it for the next two years.

sayonical said:
Woah this is going to be epic! Love the integration they're going for with windows 8!
Sent from my Radar 4G using Board Express
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It's the reason I think Microsoft is going to be a solid contender in the mobile fight for dominance. They are going to connect all the connectables. A developer writes an app, basically one app that will work on a PC, Phone, TV, and Tablet. Imagine the amount of developer attention and efforts that will flock to the platform.
Now lets see Microsoft get really smart and give Windows Phone Users their copy of Windows 8 for free. " Promo "

Seed 2.0 said:
It's the reason I think Microsoft is going to be a solid contender in the mobile fight for dominance. They are going to connect all the connectables. A developer writes an app, basically one app that will work on a PC, Phone, TV, and Tablet. Imagine the amount of developer attention and efforts that will flock to the platform.
Now lets see Microsoft get really smart and give Windows Phone Users their copy of Windows 8 for free. " Promo "
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Click to collapse
Can't say I agree more that having this uniform eco-system where one app works for all is probably the best move MS have up their sleeve. Any developer who knows the app they make for PC will work on tablet and phone's as well immediately should serve as a huge incentive to develop, and fast. An ace card up from Google & Apple I guess, though tbh as an Android user, we aren't short of apps. Hopefully though it closes the gap, especially come may when my upgrades due, getting bored of the UI of Ice Cream Sandwich already and iPhones just aren't for me at the moment. Should be an interesting year though to say the least

If this is officially revealed at MWC, sales might suffer from it. Sensible people wouldn't get into a 2 years contract knowing that high resolutions, multi core and NFC are just a few months away. I wish this update would come much earlier that Mango did but I can't see it happening with Nokia just getting back to the US market.

drupad2drupad said:
ALL GEN1 and GEN2 will update to Apollo.
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Is this statement based on information (e.g. from Microsoft) or is it just a guess?

magicsquid said:
Is this statement based on information (e.g. from Microsoft) or is it just a guess?
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I think Microsoft originally said all phones would get all updates but you never know as even on iOS some early phones can't be updated anymore. I'd think GEN2 would be fine with a question mark over GEN1.
GEN1 owners should be eligible for upgrade when GEN3 is out though.

This is really huge and backward compatible
In the article, they also state that Windows Phone 8 is Apollo.
And as far as compatibility, they also state
link_at_pocketnow said:
Update: Microsoft insider Paul Thurrott has published a post confirming many of the details that we learned, adding that despite the change to a desktop kernel, current Windows Phone apps will indeed be backwards compatible
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Removable storage, ability to use native code, skype integration, data to automaically favor wifi hotspots.
I was just reading more into the stuff Heathcliff did with running native code. It looks pretty easy (By easy, I mean for devs that have been doing dot net and COM for years.) to make apps that use it now that he did the leg work, but I am thinking I may just wait and use the official one when an Apollo SDK is issued by Microsoft.
Once this is out, native won't be for home brew only.
Hopefully they get this out earlier rather than later. And the SDK even sooner, so we can see apps available that take advantage once it is released.

Death to Zune! No more Zune!
Best news is the move to ActiveSync! Which means wired and wireless access to our files. Also I read native code support a few days ago.
Everything else is so 2010.
Sent from my Nexus S using Tapatalk

vetvito said:
Death to Zune! No more Zune!
Best news is the move to ActiveSync! Which means wired and wireless access to our files. Also I read native code support a few days ago.
Everything else is so 2010.
Sent from my Nexus S using Tapatalk
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No.
The whole media System of Windows Phone is Zune. A dedicated application may require Zune Client to sync Media.

Yes, the actually listened. I was going to jump ship but now I will bite my tongue and wait.

Strike_Eagle said:
No.
The whole media System of Windows Phone is Zune. A dedicated application may require Zune Client to sync Media.
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Sure buddy
" Moreover, Windows Phone 8 will reportedly scrap integration with the desktop Zune client in favor of a syncing relationship with a dedicated companion application. In other words, Microsoft is bringing back a (presumably) richer version of ActiveSync after letting that program die out for the most part."
Death to Zune!
They're bringing back the glory days of the PPC!
Sent from my Nexus S using Tapatalk

You guys make me laugh....
I'm still waiting for 8107 and you are talking about Windows 8. LOL. When has MS ever met a freak'n date?

vetvito said:
Sure buddy
" Moreover, Windows Phone 8 will reportedly scrap integration with the desktop Zune client in favor of a syncing relationship with a dedicated companion application. In other words, Microsoft is bringing back a (presumably) richer version of ActiveSync after letting that program die out for the most part."
Death to Zune!
They're bringing back the glory days of the PPC!
Sent from my Nexus S using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm betting zune will still be around, just not required. it will be a music client only and still have phone integration. They put to much into zune and they will need a music service to compete with itunes. the name will die though. It will be Microsoft music as seen on windows 8
http://zunited.net/rss/?p=84

Why I think WP7 users are worrying about nothing in terms of new apps neglect

It has been said that developers will code for Windows Phone 8 devices and neglect Windows Phone 7..
I totally disagree. If I was a developer I would code for WP7 and not WP8. Not immediately anyway. At launch of WP8, there would be millions more WP7 devices than WP8 devices so why limit my sales to WP8 devices only? WP7 apps work on WP7 and WP8. WP8 apps ONLY work on WP8 devices. Therefore, I would code for WP7 devices which work on WP7 AND WP8. Makes total sense if I want to make more money from my app. I would wait several months before coding for WP8 to allow time for a large user base of WP8 owners to grow.

Considering WP7 market share is only 3.8% and the fact that it will continue to drop as people start to realize it's an orphaned platform, if WP8 is successful, I would think most developers would prefer to compile their apps for native WP8. The existing user base of WP7 phones will dry up quickly as people will upgrade at the end of their 1 or 2-year contracts.
For new developers, there's usually a good learning curve when it comes to an SDK, so I don't know why they would want to learn the WP7 SDK when they can jump right to WP8.

My company has developers that we are currently contracting for mobile development. We had an active project going on for WP7 for an enterprise app (business purposes).
The day of the announcement we halted all development... First idea was to stop coding immediately, get our hands on the new SDK, and re-write the app so it would be native to the new OS for when development is finished...
Unfortunately, no SDK is yet available for WP8, and after the business guys got involved, meeting with developers, we are thinking of switching platforms (to iOS, or Android. Whichever is more friendly for the enterprise) just because we don't want to run in to this again...
-We don't want to push this app for WP7 and have it not run natively on the new WP8...
-If we did stay with Windows Phone, we'd want it to be coded in the best way possible (using the SDK and coded best practice using the new development methods of WP8)...
-We don't want to halt development until we hear more as to WTF is going on with the SDK, development, and a product that isn't even out yet...
-We don't want to code for a platform that is obsolete (WP7).
And most of all, this applies not just to us, but to the typical dev writing a complex app... We don't have the time, funds, and budget to develop for both platforms WP7, and WP8...

Zhariak said:
Unfortunately, no SDK is yet available for WP8, and after the business guys got involved, meeting with developers, we are thinking of switching platforms (to iOS, or Android. Whichever is more friendly for the enterprise) just because we don't want to run in to this again...
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How many people are creating apps for Windows Phone exclusively? Besides the Nokia Collection (for obvious reasons) not a single other app on my phone is unique to Windows Phone. You are going to need to give us more information. Why would you ignore iphone and Andriod anyway? That's insane. It sounds like the place where you work is poorly run. I don't think that is the fault of MSFT.

sitizenx said:
How many people are creating apps for Windows Phone exclusively? Besides the Nokia Collection (for obvious reasons) not a single other app on my phone is unique to Windows Phone. You are going to need to give us more information. Why would you ignore iphone and Andriod anyway? That's insane. It sounds like the place where you work is poorly run. I don't think that is the fault of MSFT.
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The only app I know of that is exclusive to WP7 is the Walgreen's app. If you're an old, broken down POS like me, it occupies the top left tile.

sitizenx said:
How many people are creating apps for Windows Phone exclusively? Besides the Nokia Collection (for obvious reasons) not a single other app on my phone is unique to Windows Phone. You are going to need to give us more information. Why would you ignore iphone and Andriod anyway? That's insane. It sounds like the place where you work is poorly run. I don't think that is the fault of MSFT.
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We are a small biz, this isn't your average tinker app... We chose a platform and OS to our liking... Don't have the resources to manage the same app over multiple platforms... That's the main reason why we aren't developing for both development methods for WP7 and WP8.

Did we all watch the same 2 hour video of the summit? Because Joe specifically states that all windows phone 7.5 apps will work with windows 8 with "little to no tweaking of the code." So I don't get why everyone is so worried.

Laquox said:
Did we all watch the same 2 hour video of the summit? Because Joe specifically states that all windows phone 7.5 apps will work with windows 8 with "little to no tweaking of the code." So I don't get why everyone is so worried.
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They are worried about developers preferring to use the WP8 SDK instead of the obsolete WP7 SDK. Because if they do, the new apps won't run on the old phone.
Valid concern, because if I were a mobile developer, I'd prefer to use the newer SDK. The WP7 user base is not large enough for a new developer to justify learning an obsolete SDK, or an existing developer to faithfully continue using an old SDK just to appease a small base of users which will rapidly diminish. IMO, of course.

GnatGoSplat said:
They are worried about developers preferring to use the WP8 SDK instead of the obsolete WP7 SDK. Because if they do, the new apps won't run on the old phone.
Valid concern, because if I were a mobile developer, I'd prefer to use the newer SDK. The WP7 user base is not large enough for a new developer to justify learning an obsolete SDK, or an existing developer to faithfully continue using an old SDK just to appease a small base of users which will rapidly diminish. IMO, of course.
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I can see that but we probably won't see a SDK for at least 3-6 months. No developer on the planet (that I can think of) is going to wait for that amount of time to get to market. And my take from the Summit was that the 7.5 SDK will not be obsolete as your app will run on WP8. By the time WP8 has a decent enough market share it will be time to refresh your app anyway (14-18 months from now) and then you can make the jump to the new SDK which from what I watched will be almost effortless and will allow native code.
Just my thoughts here.

GnatGoSplat said:
They are worried about developers preferring to use the WP8 SDK instead of the obsolete WP7 SDK. Because if they do, the new apps won't run on the old phone.
Valid concern, because if I were a mobile developer, I'd prefer to use the newer SDK. The WP7 user base is not large enough for a new developer to justify learning an obsolete SDK, or an existing developer to faithfully continue using an old SDK just to appease a small base of users which will rapidly diminish. IMO, of course.
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In term of money, they would make more money if they can make an app that can run well on both OS without further development.
But in technology side, Native C and C++ would be easier to develop, i am start worrying that Microsoft is driving to a wrong way. Not a straight way to success, but a narrow and longer one.
Just keep thinking about what if they put the native-code support for Windows 7.8 (Simple Speaking, would be what if they make Windows Phone 8 Apps (written in Native C) can run well on Windows Phone 7.8 as well without any modification...
A little more works to be done , but think about what they can get from it. People will respect Windows Phone more, recent user will not regret with their 2-years plan as much as they do right now.
There will be some reasonable explanation about the hardware limitation of the current Windows Phone, but just think about that. I don't think it is impossible to make the current kernel support apps from Windows Phone 8.
If they can't do that right now , just be clear that they don't sound like "Windows Phone 7.8 mark the death for the current Windows Phone gen."
Windows Phone lovers won't be hurt since i know they (and i) will purchase a new phone anyway, but with some users, it is a broken deal if they just picked up a Lumia or Titan for 2-years contract and feel like Microsoft just forget about them.

GnatGoSplat said:
They are worried about developers preferring to use the WP8 SDK instead of the obsolete WP7 SDK. Because if they do, the new apps won't run on the old phone.
Valid concern, because if I were a mobile developer, I'd prefer to use the newer SDK. The WP7 user base is not large enough for a new developer to justify learning an obsolete SDK, or an existing developer to faithfully continue using an old SDK just to appease a small base of users which will rapidly diminish. IMO, of course.
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If you think WP7's userbase is small, what does that make WP8's? Non-existent. There are millions of WP7 users. By some accounts 12-16 million. How long do you think it will take for WP8 to reach those numbers?
Let's be mildly optimistic and say that WP8 launches in September and sells 2 million units per month. It would take 6 months (March 2013) before it reaches the low end WP7 number of 12 million phones sold. So, six months from now that would be equal or a bit behind what WP7 has NOW.
But, during those six months WP7 will have sold more phones. But, let's be a little more pessimistic with this outlook. Let's take the mean of the two numbers above (12 and 16) and say WP7 has sold only 14 million units in 18 months. That's almost 800k phones per month. Now, let's say in the 3 months leading up to WP8's launch, WP7 sales drop and it only sells 500k phones per month. That's another 1.5 million units prior to Wp8's launch for a total of 15.5 million phones in the wild.
So, at launch WP8 zero, WP7 15.5 million potential customers for developers. Considering that 80-90% of your code can be ported over, as a dev, why would you NOT code for WP7 first?
I know. I know. Native code this, native code that. Okay, let's look at this. How many apps are on the market place right now that can absolutely and overwhelmingly benefit from native code? I mean, the differences in performance and features would be night and day. I'd wager a small minority of apps.
So, if an app written for WP7 will perform on par with the same app written for WP8, why, again, would you not code for WP7 first? If you didn't do this you cut out millions of potential customers and who knows how much in potential revenue, all to wait for WP8 to build a userbase.
ICS is on approximately 7% of all Android handsets right now. So, using some of you all's logic, a developer should code strictly for ICS and what it offers and forgo the other 93% of potential customers. That's nigh insane to even think about if you're trying to make any money at all.
Granted Android's user base is much larger, but that was an example. Even if we say that by the time WP8 launches WP7 will only have say... ten million users, that's ten million more than WP8.
I'm going to code NOW for those millions of customers which are actually out there with phones in their hands as opposed to holding off for customers of an OS version that is probably no less than three months out and no less than six months out from building a decent user base. I hope I'm wrong and WP8 explodes like Android did after the "Droid" ad campaign.
But, if I'm not and my hypothetical numbers are even remotely close, I leave you with the old adage... a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. WP7 IS the bird in the hand in case y'all missed it.

Excellent post Wyn6. Well said. For anyone to say that WP7 SDK is dead..
well, they clearly need to change their mind pronto if they want to make money as a developer. I wish WP8 lots of success and think it will be successful, but there is still (and will be) plenty of life in WP7.

Very well said Wyn6. Can you please post it on some more threads here and around other forums where we have headless chickens running around wanting to jump the ship? I've run out of my thanks for today but will make sure they go where they are due. I will be quoting your post in numerous threads I've pulled my hair reading in past 48 hours! Hope you are ok with that

Wyn6 said:
If you think WP7's userbase is small, what does that make WP8's? Non-existent. There are millions of WP7 users. By some accounts 12-16 million. How long do you think it will take for WP8 to reach those numbers?
Let's be mildly optimistic and say that WP8 launches in September and sells 2 million units per month. It would take 6 months (March 2013) before it reaches the low end WP7 number of 12 million phones sold. So, six months from now that would be equal or a bit behind what WP7 has NOW.
But, during those six months WP7 will have sold more phones. But, let's be a little more pessimistic with this outlook. Let's take the mean of the two numbers above (12 and 16) and say WP7 has sold only 14 million units in 18 months. That's almost 800k phones per month. Now, let's say in the 3 months leading up to WP8's launch, WP7 sales drop and it only sells 500k phones per month. That's another 1.5 million units prior to Wp8's launch for a total of 15.5 million phones in the wild.
So, at launch WP8 zero, WP7 15.5 million potential customers for developers. Considering that 80-90% of your code can be ported over, as a dev, why would you NOT code for WP7 first?
I know. I know. Native code this, native code that. Okay, let's look at this. How many apps are on the market place right now that can absolutely and overwhelmingly benefit from native code? I mean, the differences in performance and features would be night and day. I'd wager a small minority of apps.
So, if an app written for WP7 will perform on par with the same app written for WP8, why, again, would you not code for WP7 first? If you didn't do this you cut out millions of potential customers and who knows how much in potential revenue, all to wait for WP8 to build a userbase.
ICS is on approximately 7% of all Android handsets right now. So, using some of you all's logic, a developer should code strictly for ICS and what it offers and forgo the other 93% of potential customers. That's nigh insane to even think about if you're trying to make any money at all.
Granted Android's user base is much larger, but that was an example. Even if we say that by the time WP8 launches WP7 will only have say... ten million users, that's ten million more than WP8.
I'm going to code NOW for those millions of customers which are actually out there with phones in their hands as opposed to holding off for customers of an OS version that is probably no less than three months out and no less than six months out from building a decent user base. I hope I'm wrong and WP8 explodes like Android did after the "Droid" ad campaign.
But, if I'm not and my hypothetical numbers are even remotely close, I leave you with the old adage... a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. WP7 IS the bird in the hand in case y'all missed it.
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Exactly what i want to say...
Countinuing supporting for Windows Phone 7 right now is the way the developer would do... Since Windows Phone 8/ Windows 8 user base would not reach to the point that WP7.5 has right now.

Wyn6 said:
ICS is on approximately 7% of all Android handsets right now. So, using some of you all's logic, a developer should code strictly for ICS and what it offers and forgo the other 93% of potential customers. That's nigh insane to even think about if you're trying to make any money at all.
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I agree. I know in the video game console market there has been a long history of making new systems incompatible with previous generations of a console. The reason being is console makers wanted software developers to use the new console's new features. If left to their own devices software makers would be a lot slower to code solely for the new hardware. I don't know why smartphones wouldn't be the same.
The people that think they are clever waiting for Windows Phone 8 are going to be disappointed. The OS will have some great new characteristics that the MSFT built in apps will take advantage of on day one but I doubt there will be a deluge of Windows Phone 8 exclusive apps for a loooonnnngggg time. Who doubts this?

nice post.
except..
you are not a developer. You don't pay 100$ a year for AppHub. You don't have to buy Visual Studio, but even ignoring that your logic is also flawed.
First developing for WP7 platform is not a profitable for the majority of devs. This is a fact, development costs are higher compared to IOS and Android (xcode is free, andriod tools are completely free), and the user base is small. Unless you're one of the few devs making enough money, there's no point supporting something that has negative returns.

pillsburydoughman said:
nice post.
except..
you are not a developer. You don't pay 100$ a year for AppHub. You don't have to buy Visual Studio, but even ignoring that your logic is also flawed.
First developing for WP7 platform is not a profitable for the majority of devs. This is a fact, development costs are higher compared to IOS and Android (xcode is free, andriod tools are completely free), and the user base is small. Unless you're one of the few devs making enough money, there's no point supporting something that has negative returns.
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You are right. Those 100,000 apps that school kids have made for WP7 in about 20 months might be better when a developer who pays $100 makes them. You will be alright.

Here is what logic tells me:
They switched to a new way of doing things (kernel) for a reason. Not because they are fickle and like to screw people over.
By switching over to a new way of doing things, this will allow them to do new things that either were not possible on WP7 or were going to be very difficult.
(so far all this makes sense to me)
Therefore, if those two things are logically sound:
Windows Phone 8 will have non-trivial improvements over Windows Phone 7.x. Things that were important enough to do something as publicly damaging as what they did by switching the kernel. Maybe it is a deeper integration (skype), an experience exactly like the PC one (IE 10) or a shared programming platform (silverlight).
How many people in here honestly believe Windows Phone 8 won't have a bunch of wow features in it when it launches that Windows Phone 7.8 will not nor ever have?
How many people believe OEMs will push out new phones with Windows 7.8 on it? Maybe Nokia on some low end Lumia bound for Asia/Africa.
The Android 2.3 vs 4.0 anaolgy really is not the same. If I am looking to port my game to Windows Phone, after that announcement I would have shelved the project. Why code for a single core phone when I can code for a dual?
The "oh I have to wait" critics of WP just got more fuel.

nicksti said:
Here is what logic tells me:
They switched to a new way of doing things (kernel) for a reason. Not because they are fickle and like to screw people over.
By switching over to a new way of doing things, this will allow them to do new things that either were not possible on WP7 or were going to be very difficult.
(so far all this makes sense to me)
Therefore, if those two things are logically sound:
Windows Phone 8 will have non-trivial improvements over Windows Phone 7.x. Things that were important enough to do something as publicly damaging as what they did by switching the kernel. Maybe it is a deeper integration (skype), an experience exactly like the PC one (IE 10) or a shared programming platform (silverlight).
How many people in here honestly believe Windows Phone 8 won't have a bunch of wow features in it when it launches that Windows Phone 7.8 will not nor ever have?
How many people believe OEMs will push out new phones with Windows 7.8 on it? Maybe Nokia on some low end Lumia bound for Asia/Africa.
The Android 2.3 vs 4.0 anaolgy really is not the same. If I am looking to port my game to Windows Phone, after that announcement I would have shelved the project. Why code for a single core phone when I can code for a dual?
The "oh I have to wait" critics of WP just got more fuel.
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This issue whether this aspect or another of that app will work on both WP7.5 and WP8 is already present with Audible release - voice control is WP8-only affair.
So there must be more things that possible software-wise on WP8 that is impossible on WP7.5 - and it is not the hardware difference.

lqaddict said:
This issue whether this aspect or another of that app will work on both WP7.5 and WP8 is already present with Audible release - voice control is WP8-only affair.
So there must be more things that possible software-wise on WP8 that is impossible on WP7.5 - and it is not the hardware difference.
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I believe people in here understand that if a software dev wanted to he/she could make software that would be compatible on WP7.8 and 8. What they are debating is if someone would. Because in theory they would want to include as many devices as possible.
Are OEMs going to make new handsets with WP7.8? If the answer is no then WP7 is dead. Dead as my goldfish Goldie.

Reminder: Don't expect the 8.1 Preview to behave.

It's a beta! It's buggy, it's slow (at least on a Surface RT).
If you use your tablet daily, stay away from this thing. Wait for the full release.

SilverHedgehog said:
It's a beta! It's buggy, it's slow (at least on a Surface RT).
If you use your tablet daily, stay away from this thing. Wait for the full release.
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expecting bumps. so far it's good and I am not experiencing any hiccups yet. I very much like the changes.
cheers

Well, I found it rather buggy - though considering how I use it, I'm rather surprised how well it works in 8.0. Still, a warning might be a good idea - I'm sick of people attacking companies when beta software is behaving like beta software.

It's also so limited in terms of the number of devices and regions it will actually install in, I rather get the impression it was a real rush job to try and show that improvements are at least coming at some point.

SilverHedgehog said:
It's a beta! It's buggy, it's slow (at least on a Surface RT).
If you use your tablet daily, stay away from this thing. Wait for the full release.
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I don`t stand by you .I think the RT 8.1 is perfect。The experience on my surface RT is nice

seven7xiaoyang said:
I don`t stand by you .I think the RT 8.1 is perfect。The experience on my surface RT is nice
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I second that.. My Surface is faster and smoother now. Especially with IE11. I have no more lags or getting the Browser to freeze. I love it!

I have the 8.1 Preview on my Surface RT and it seems fine. I wouldn't caution anybody against it based on what I've seen so far.
Tk

ToddKlindt said:
I have the 8.1 Preview on my Surface RT and it seems fine. I wouldn't caution anybody against it based on what I've seen so far.
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Jailbreak. 'Nuff said.

Using Spotify crashes the browser - worked perfectly in 8.0.

A reminder to all who find bugs: PLEASE report them to MS! This is our last chance to ask Microsoft to fix things while the software is in development. Once it ships and gets handed off to a maintenance team, changes will be much slower to arrive.
Note: while the continued restriction on running our own desktop apps is not strictly a bug, this is also a good time to complain to MS about that; it's a very easy policy for them to change, if they decide it would be worth it!

So far my experience with windows rt. 8.1 is very nice. I like the outlook 2013, the keyboard and the response time of the tablet.

GoodDayToDie said:
A reminder to all who find bugs: PLEASE report them to MS! This is our last chance to ask Microsoft to fix things while the software is in development. Once it ships and gets handed off to a maintenance team, changes will be much slower to arrive.
Note: while the continued restriction on running our own desktop apps is not strictly a bug, this is also a good time to complain to MS about that; it's a very easy policy for them to change, if they decide it would be worth it!
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You need to read up on win32 vs. RT as well as some basic application architecture, then you will see why your complaint isn't valid.
Just because it has a pretty desktop and a run box doesn't mean apps magically work... Code for winform apps has to be compiled for arm vs x86/x64 to function and that just isn't going to happen. Explorer is there for a shim/stopgap.. By win9, will likely be gone for good.
This is like winnt on alpha and 2008 on titanium all over again... Except its now in the hands of consumers that don't understand what's going on under the covers.
MS should have never put a traditional desktop/explorer in RT and just finished the port of apps to modernui because its confusing to the average user.
Just think if apple had a shortcut in iOS to give you a macosx desktop that didn't run Mac apps..
Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

@libbycm: Despite being here even longer than I have, you appear to have no idea who you're talking to *or* what you're talking about.
I maintain the Ported Apps thread for RT, and have ported a few of them myself (and should get back into it with something more realistic than Chrome, which I still hope to get working Some Day Soon Now). I am quite *personally* familiar with the requirements of porting, the difficulties of working around missing functionality (almost all of which, it should be noted, is missing by design and not neccessity), and the realities of what an ARM processor can and cannot do.
First of all, .NET apps (including WinForms ones and even once that use COM or P/Invoke to system libraries) work just fine, no recompile needed. That's a pretty small portion of the overall Windows software ecosystem, of course, but it's a growing one and also it's one that would be seen as worth targeting by more developers if they saw an actual benefit to architecture-independent toolchains on Windows.
Second, and related to the first, .NET is far from the only architecture-independent language. Java (though IKVM, though .NET) kind of works on RT already; it wouldn't take much to make a serious platform worthy of an official port. Same for Python, and we already have Perl. Yeah, that's still miniscule next to the bulk of legacy x86 code, but it would nonetheless make RT a far more popular platform (for example, many of the Windows bittorrent clients are either Java or Python code, and some very popular games are written in those languages).
Third, even with the crippled tools that we have cobbled together to do our porting, and despite the fact that it's all done on our own time, we've managed a fair number of native ports already. There'd be far more if it weren't for the fact that we can't port closed-source programs (and many open-source ones don't happily compile under MSVC, which is the only RT-targeting compiler we have right now). Already, a growing number of programs are natively available on x64 - after all, it's just a drop-down selection and another click on "Build" in Visual Studio. Well, the same is true of RT. It wouldn't get legacy software, but there's no reason that *new* software released in the last half year - even proprietary commercial stuff - couldn't support RT. After all, it's more customer base for almost no additional work (supporting x64 is sometimes actually more work than supported ARM; at least ARM uses the same-width pointers as x86).
Fourth, legacy code is - by its very nature - older code and generally suitable for running on less-powerful systems. You mentioned Apple... but you failed to mention that when Apple went from 68k CPUs to PowerPC CPUs, and then from PPC to x86, they used mostly-transparent emulation layers to bridge those gaps. Yeah, the code ran slower, but it ran well enough for most purposes. Yeah, ARM is *less* powerful than x86, not more powerful (although you could argue that the same is true for some use cases when going from a G5 to a first-gen Core Duo), but we've also gotten better at this emulation thing. When Apple did it before, they hired the best folks in the business, and pushed the entire field of CPU emulation forward with their need to make it work. When Microsoft declined to do that, one guy on XDA took it upon himself, in his free time, with only a partial toolchain and no access to Windows internals, hacking on open-source pieces, and built a transparent emulation layer for RT. Microsoft's Windows application compatibility team almost certainly loses more man-hours in one day's bathroom breaks than @mamaich has been able to spend on that project to date, and yet some of those very same people who pushed the whole industry forward at Apple, doing things like inventing what is today called dynamic recompilation, now work at Microsoft. They have the expertise to make it work if they'd wanted to.
Fifth, Windows on Itanium failed (mostly; it's still being used, just not developed) because Itaniums were targeted specifically at the enterprise market but weren't very good even there; there's plenty of software for that instruction set in the aforementioned market. Alpha (never mind Windows on Alpha, which I actually know people who used and worked on) failed because DEC wanted outrageous sums of money for it, seeking high-end margins instead of embracing the commodity market. Had they done otherwise, they might even still exist as a company today. NT on MIPS and PPC was similarly niche, targeting brand new (and poorly-merketed) segments that didn't have great penetration in the ecosystem (NT for PPC was a server/workstation OS, not a MacOS alternative). Unlike all those achitectures, though, ARM is well established in the consumer market for commodity computers, and its market share there is growing. If Microsoft is serious about succeeding with RT (and I think they are), they should look at the success story in that market... and it's not Apple anymore. Despite Apple's huge first-mover advantage with the consumer market, Android is rolling over them. Yet Microsoft seems determined to repeat many of Apple's mistakes, despite having precious few of its advantages. They need to make themselves a better Android, not a me-too Apple clone.
Sixth, while Microsoft has made no secret of their desire to move to WinRT, I don't really forsee them having much more success with that than with their prior effort to move people to .NET; lots of small developers will go, but the big programs that are the movers and shakers of the Windows world will stick with the vastly more powerful, flexible, and (frankly) useful Win32 API. Porting an app to RT is a hell of a lot harder than porting x86 native code to ARM, though...