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Rhodium HTC Pro 2 Camera quality very low

The camera quality is very low.
Anyone know software or procedure to improve quality ?

What do you mean, by very low? I find it quite okay for a 3.15 mp. It's not like the 5mp of the diamond 2, or those on nokia phones, but you don't buy a touch pro 2 for the camera, you know?

The only bad photos I've seen from the TP2 are when there's low lighting--the picture gets noise, distortions. Maybe if you posted one of yours and explained how you wanted it improved someone could give you some tips. Otherwise I'd recommend trying some shots in good lighting and see if you get better results.
I've never seen anyone demonstrate the 3.2mp camera of the TP2 has noticeably worse quality than the 5mp camera on D2 with side-by-sides taken under the same conditions. For the sake of people for whom picture quality is important, you'd think some blog would've given that a shot.

There is a good comparison with the HD here (you all would have seen this anyway).
I found if you change the Quality to Super Fine and increase the Sharpness to +5 under Image Properties you will squeeze a little more out of it.
Under poor lighting, you can try and tilt the device around and watch the screen while the lens gains and loses light exposure. Sometimes a small adjustment in camera angle makes all the difference.
Still auto focus and macro functionality is so much better than my Trinity.

It is what is is but I find it pretty good.
Check out the two images attached that I took on the weekend, for a phone cam it's not bad. Definitely better than the majority of 5MP phone cams out there (they pretty much all have the same rubbish sensor anyway.) These were taken with all the settings on standard (didn't know there was a super fine lol)
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evojulz said:
There is a good comparison with the HD here (you all would have seen this anyway).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm amazed at the amount of noise in those TP2 shots, even the outdoor ones. That's not something I've seen in other outdoor shots from the TP2.

There are a number of reasons why the quality is bad on the Pro 2 which I am trying to work out.
1) You cannot change the capture format from JPEG, this means that JPEG compression is noticeably visible. There must be a way to change this otherwise they would not show this option
2) Metering mode algorithms - They suck! simple as that. My Sony Ericsson W800i was better at taking photos than this.
3) Sharpness - you have to play around with it as I have a feeling you either need less of it or more.
4) Resolution - I learnt from my previous phone LG Viewty (5MP) that not always the largest resolution is the best to use on all occasions. So I advise testing out the same shots but in different resolutions, I stuck with 1MP.
I think the camera has potential but the algorithms on the cam driver doesn't perform well enough for such a high end device.
How to compensate for noisy and grainy photos:
Install Noiseware for Windows
Reduce your photo like you should be doing anyway to about 50% of it's original size.
What I do is import my photos into photoshop automatically when the device is connected and I use an action to reduce all the photos in batch processes, then if I want to I'll use Noiseware to reduce some of the noise out from the photo. (Free version you have to do that manually not in PS)
Windows Mobile has Windows Update so I am pretty sure that when Windows 6.5 is officially released there will be some form of a firmware upgrade or service pack that will improve the camera quality, if not then I'm sure the cam driver is accessible for us to edit. Most likely the algorithms would be in hexadecimal format.

I honestly dont think its bad at all, but then personally I didnt buy it with the camera as one of the reasons, but for facebook etc its pretty damn good for the MP.
It is afterall a business device not a SLR.

haha it's a camera phone. The photos are supposed to be shoddy.
Those shots were taken absolutely stock with no tweaking, they are noisy, because it is a phone with a camera unit smaller than a 10p piece and a lense which is minute. They are nowhere near as noisy as in that comparison review posted and so I question the authors ability.
If you buy a phone for a camera then I really do pity you as at best the results are always going to be shocking, i.e the best camera phone is pretty much on par with the average £50 digital camera.

Can we get more users posting some test images?
Im currently deciding on a new phone and this has been on my mind, those comparison shots are pretty shoddy >< dazkeirle loo fine though

Tip: remove back cover and make sure the lense is clean!

Could it be register related?
If so, i took a peek at my registery value for the camera in:
HKLM>Drivers>BuiltIn>Camera>
My sensor type says 4100. Maybe there a different types ?
Maybe it's nothing, maybe it is.

Camera question

Maybe this is an ignorant question. Maybe my search skills have failed me. When I had my Fuze I had the camera set up to take excellent pictures for being taken by a cell phone. ill include a couple pictures taken from both phones for comparison. what im looking for is some advice on settings to use to get better pictures. im running energy rom (built nov 27 09 on OS 5.2.21877) if it matters any. Thanks guys.
From my Fuze:
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And from the Touch Pro 2

The two photos were taken in very different light. To make a valid comparison, get two photos with similar lighting.
A photo taken in low light makes the photo sensor "work harder" - slower shutter speeds, boosting the signal gain, etc - that's what's going on in your TP2 photo. You can see it in the smeared headlights (indicates long exposure) and the signal noise (colored blotches) in the sky.
(This is true of even high-end digital SLR cameras. I'm a semi-pro photographer, and have been dealing with such issues for years now.)
Using a tool called Opanda IEXIF, I can see the EXIF data for the TP2 photo indicates 1/21 of a second exposure (pretty long) and sensitivity setting of ISO 600 (pretty high). There is no valid exposure data in the EXIF for the Fuze photo. Judging from the lighting conditions, I'd guess that it might have been around 1/500 of a second at ISO 200.
HTH,
Mike

Ok I guess what i need help with is some general explanation of the settings. obviously a evening picture and midafternoon day will always come out different even on the same camera. basically on the TP2 they are always grainy regardless of whether its set on basic, fine, ultra fine etc. what are the different ISO options? im assuming that would have to do with shutter speed? i have it set to auto on TP2 so maybe thats where I need to look into making adjustments?

Well ... ISO and shutter speed are separate settings that work together to determine the exposure.
ISO is a setting that deals with the photo sensor's (CCD's) sensitivity to light. Higher ISO numbers make the CCD more sensitive by amplifying the electronic signal from each pixel. Unfortunately, it also boosts the electronic noise, so you'll get more of those colored blotches (digital noise) as you increase ISO.
For the best quality (ie - lowest digital noise) photos, keep the ISO as low as possible. But also understand the trade-off (longer shutter speed).
Lower ISO sensitivity means longer shutter speeds to make up for a less sensitive CCD, and vice versa.
I don't see a way with the TP2 to set the shutter speed. So what's happening is that the camera circuitry is trying to find the best balance it can between low ISO and fast shutter speed. The only way you can really influence it is to take ISO off the Auto setting - your choices are 100, 200, 400, 800. (in photography terms, each doubling of ISO is equivalent to one f/stop of exposure sensitivity. ISO 800 is 3 f/stops more sensitive than ISO 100).
I almost never use my phone for photos, but I'd leave mine on Auto ISO, Quality Fine, Image Properties (Contrast/Saturation/Sharpness) to taste, Metering Mode: Center Area.
I'm not familiar with the image processing logic in the TP2, but I think the Superfine Quality might introduce "JPEG artifacts" into your photos - funny looking "squiggles" in a clear blue sky, for example. Try it and see. You can always dial it back to Fine.
I find that Auto White Balance pretty much sucks with cell phone cameras. If you can manually set your white balance to match the light you're shooting in (daylight, tungsten, flourescent, etc), your colors will be better.

ISO is sensor sensitivity, so the lower the ISO the better quality pic, but requires more light, higher ISOs will work better in low light, but more noise will ensue, such as in your 2nd pic

ok most pictures i take are either in sunlight or indoors. obviously i also like to get some sunsets if im in a good location. any suggestions? both of you have been helpful so far so THANKS!!

bmc357374 said:
ok most pictures i take are either in sunlight or indoors. obviously i also like to get some sunsets if im in a good location. any suggestions? both of you have been helpful so far so THANKS!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sunsets. Hoo boy, now you're getting into dynamic range of the CCD. The difference between the lightest and darkest parts of the photo.
I'd go for lowest ISO possible (100), daylight white balance, try to get a good exposure for the sky and just understand that you won't get any detail in the foreground - just black silhouettes. Usually when you see a sunset photo with good exposure in the sky and the foreground, the photographer used Photoshop to combine two photos.
Try to brace the phone/camera as you shoot, to reduce camera shake with slow shutter speeds. Set the bottom edge of the phone on a flat surface or something like that.

yeah generally i have it braced on a flat surface that will keep it good and steady. given that it is in fact still a phone, im not looking for perfect pictures just something decent. I dont like keeping a high dollar digital camera with me at all times for those shots that just have to be captured due to crime in the area.again i thank you guys.

leave the settings alone if you dont understand them. just knock the plastic cover off the camera. take a pic with your battery cover on and off. you ll see a huge difference. that damn plastic gets dirty easily.

xcesivemastub8ah said:
leave the settings alone if you dont understand them. just knock the plastic cover off the camera. take a pic with your battery cover on and off. you ll see a huge difference. that damn plastic gets dirty easily.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yeah except the thing is...im trying to LEARN the settings. huge difference between just taking pictures and wanting to learn what things mean and do.

How good is the camera?

I am thinking of getting a Defy as a free upgrade to my Hero. Reviews of camera seem mixed but general impression is that it's not brilliant, especially in low light. Interested to hear the views of people here.

You can compare the photos from defy with various other phones, including N8, iPhone4 on gsmarena site. Just click on some of the latest reviews, doesnt matter which phone, and go to the camera section of the review. There is a photo compare tool.

Thanks. That was helpful but I am more interested in the low light performance.

Neo Cortex said:
Thanks. That was helpful but I am more interested in the low light performance.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I was pleasantly suprised with the quality of the flash. up to a metre or 2 it is very effective and doesn't wash out the photo like some others. All in all I am pleases with the camera - thats just my opinion though.

Thanks. I am almost certainly going to get one. The nagging doubt in the back of my mind is the speaker issue. Difficult to know how much of a problem it really is. People who don't have the issue (obviously) don't post to forums

None of those Cell Cameras are that cool in low light compared to a DSLR. What would really help is a camera app that writes out a dng file so that one can properly posprocess this in say Lightroom/Photoshop/Noiseware.
Just for completeness shake, the camera module seems to be a MT9PT012 ...

Higgsy said:
I was pleasantly suprised with the quality of the flash. up to a metre or 2 it is very effective and doesn't wash out the photo like some others. All in all I am pleases with the camera - thats just my opinion though.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
IMHO - flash and camera is pretty awful. Here's a shot with flash, I even gave it +20 brightness in Gimp:
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Then again, I might be spoiled by these babies:
Ironically - That was shot with my HTC Desire
I guess the Defy's camera is just below cell-phone average. It should't be your only camera, but for "Hey this looks fun!" shots it'll do fine.

I really like my defy but, honestly, the camera is not the best part.
Also the display looks not so brilliant as the desire's one.
I'm not saying they're bad, just they're not wonderful, but considering defy's price it's absolutely fair.

Well, one thing none of the others can do is H2Oing it. I just filmed in water, definitely better results than any other phone attempting the same

I'm using the Camera360 app. There is a filter called "Effect enhancement". If i you this one, the pictures look better - the ones taken in short range. Ok, they do look a bit "artifical", but for me its ok. There is a "free" version of that app for trying out...
The Defy is not the first Android i bought, but it will be the first Android, which will not be sold again. I really like this phone...
Maybe there will be some kind of camera-optimization. Until then, i will take my digi-cam for "more important" pictures to make.
Best regards
Stefan

Here is sample picture, resized, with flash and taken with camera360 app.

This was taken with a Galaxy S
This was taken with the Defy, different day so not a direct comparison. The weather was worse and it was cloudy. Hope this give you an idea of comparison though.
Defy on macro with flash
Defy with macro no flash. Shows good detail.
thanks

Photos aren't that great but they're not awful. I do find that the built in editing (kodak perfect touch) does an excellent job though. The macro mode and color reproduction aren't as good as my vibrant. But overall im satisfied.
Sent from my DEFY using XDA app

disturkis4u said:
Photos aren't that great but they're not awful. I do find that the built in editing (kodak perfect touch) does an excellent job though. The macro mode and color reproduction aren't as good as my vibrant. But overall im satisfied.
Sent from my DEFY using XDA app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yeah I agree that kodak perfect touch enhancement works well

What about Videos in 720p ?
Anyone succeed to take videos in 720p with Froyo 2.2 ?

have you tryed the kodak perfect touch option?? It's excelent! for night pics, and remember to use the "night" mode in dark places
imo, It's good++

I took pictures with it for the first time today. I did not like the quality of the pictures. My first impressions:
Pros: The LED flash is bright and puts my old BB Curve to shame. You could use it to blind a night time attacker if you could instantly turn it on with an external button.
The interface to take pictures is pretty good and easy to use.
Cons:
-Colors are muddy and off color even when shot outdoors.
-Colors with the flash are not automatically corrected and show up with the blue/white color cast of the LED flash.
-Color space compression is very noticable with banding visible under various conditions.
-Slow to take a picture because it does not focus until you click the onscreen button to take the photo.
I thought video was better on balance than the camera but it is rather poor in low light (as expected). I hope that I will learn to get better results with it after more testing but I'm glad it's not a primary reason for me to own the Defy.
-felipe

What about 720p videos?
Could someone try it?with froyo??

I found the camera pretty good in comparaison of my old phone.
But there's a hudge miss on the native camera app: you cannot change the JPG compression and by default it's very very compressed! Some have their 5Mpxl pictures that takes around 300kB (it should be 1.5MB at least!).
Maybe if someone know a way to change this settings it would be nice for improving the quality of the final picture

I really like the Vignette app for the camera, it's old school styles go rather well with the "performance" of the camear

Really bad Camera quality? (Samsung Omnia 7)

I don't take pictures often, but my Samsung Omnia 7 seems to take very very bad pictures.
This is both indoors and outdoors, both with flash on and off.
Most picutres I take, it looks like they are out of focus, or if I'm shaking, which I'm not.
All pics were taken with the default camera settings (which get lost anyway when you exit the camera).
(edit: at the bottom of the post you can scroll to the right to see the rest of the pics)
Sometimes the pictures are ok, let's start with one which isn't too bad:
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Now pics taken which are all bad/out of focus. This happens with almost all I take, so indoors, outdoors, etc:
Other people have similar issues? For me this right now means I can't use my camera. Out of my 30 NYE pictures, 0 (!) were usuable...

That's strange because I consider the Omnia7 camera outstandingly good for a phone camera.
It looks like a physical defect. Is the camera lens clean? Then maybe the sensor is out of place which would require a warranty repair.
Just to be sure: Did you try a hardreset -maybe the software messed up at any point.

My Omnia 7 camera shots are outstanding, even at low light conditions. It might be a hardware defect or a software issue. I would hard reset to test.

Well, haven't tried a hard-reset, because I would lose all my settings and stuff.
And that wouldn't explain to me why sometimes it's ok, but most of the time it's not..

Are you sure you are pressing the camera button half-down to focus and than take the picture. I sometimes get these kind of pictures if I don't focus with my HD7

No, I just press the button down.
You have to wait for it to focus?? With my old Touch HD I could just press the button to take a picture and be done with it, and never had any issues of it being out of focus.
So this 'having' to press it halfway down to focus seems like a bad thing to me; can you turn that off? That especially ruins it when you want to take a picture quickly...?

Seven_PRX said:
No, I just press the button down.
You have to wait for it to focus?? With my old Touch HD I could just press the button to take a picture and be done with it, and never had any issues of it being out of focus.
So this 'having' to press it halfway down to focus seems like a bad thing to me; can you turn that off? That especially ruins it when you want to take a picture quickly...?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Autofocus cameras work that way. You have to half-press for the camera to find focus and then fully press to take the picture. If you have ever used a real digital camera you have done that.
Your touch HD either didn't have an AF lens or focused once you clicked on the camera.

No, never had any 'real' camera Well, thnx for the tip, guess I'll just half press before taking pics.
There is no way for this to do it automatically, where I can just press the button down, it then focusses and takes the pic?
=7

Seven_PRX said:
No, never had any 'real' camera Well, thnx for the tip, guess I'll just half press before taking pics.
There is no way for this to do it automatically, where I can just press the button down, it then focusses and takes the pic?
=7
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
nope, there is no way. the phone was designed with a 2 stage camera button. with other phones, they require you to tap on the screen to focus and shoot. windows phone is one of the few which provide an actual camera button.

my mozart is also rather bad,8M is a joke

As has been discussed in this thread, it's 100% evident that your pictures are poor because you haven't half pressed the shutter button to focus first.
Just hold the button lightly until a rectangle box appears. That's your focus box and it should be evident when it's focused on what you want. You'll also hear a sound from the device that it's focused.
Without releasing your finger, push down fully on the shutter button to take the focused photo.
If you simply push down like you have been, it's not giving the camera a chance to focus and you'll get blurring.
I'm sure you understand already by the post I saw, just making sure I can double make sure you understand.
Happy shooting!

ekashic said:
my mozart is also rather bad,8M is a joke
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
OK Mr Photography expert, kindly explain why you believe the number of megapixels has anything to do with image quality and why 8Megapixels is a joke?
Perhaps you could also explain why you don't think lens size and quality, and CCD quality come into the equation at all?
Or, come to think of it, why any phone is anything but a joke for taking decent pics?

Jim Coleman said:
OK Mr Photography expert, kindly explain why you believe the number of megapixels has anything to do with image quality and why 8Megapixels is a joke?
Perhaps you could also explain why you don't think lens size and quality, and CCD quality come into the equation at all?
Or, come to think of it, why any phone is anything but a joke for taking decent pics?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Did he say anything about the lens or CCD not being part of it? No, he did not. He simply stated that the 8MP camera on his Mozart is a joke - and I for one am inclined to agree with him. The Mozart, with it's 8MP sensor, does not produce any better quality photos than the rest of the HTC WP7 line-up - which pretty much answers your question about why it's a joke.
Of course you can never compare a cameraphone with an actual camera (Nikon owner here) but the Mozart (and IMO the rest of the WP7 devices on the market today) produce worse quality photos than e.g. the iPhone.

From your examples it is evident that your hand were shaking, mostly in the indoor pics (camera needs longer time of exposition).
Try to fix up your hand (on the table or against the wall) and photos will be much clearer.

Just another quick tip - Low Level Lighting Condition = Slower Shutter speeds
In low level lighting conditions in order to get a crisp pic, you and the objects you are taking pictures of will need to remain as static as possible
whereas outdoors in daylight you'll probably notice an almost instant shutter time

[Q] Camera guide?

Where can I find a guide or tips for taking best pictures with our Z ?
I especially care about macro photos.
My old sony ericsson c702 with 3mp did way better photos

More light, no flash, and do not zoom. Just my experience.

I don't know of a guide, and I don't do a lot macro photography in particular, but I can give some general tips. I don't even consider myself much of an amateur photographer, much less any kind of expert. But I know a thing or two about general photography, that IMO make a big difference, and a couple tips useful for the G2/Vision in particular.
1) First and foremost, get some basic understanding of how cameras work. IMO this is the number one reason for crappy pictures perpetrated by the huge majority of people with digital cameras. In particular, learn about the exposure triangle. http://www.digital-photography-school.com/learning-exposure-in-digital-photography. You don't have control over aperture and shutter speed on this phone, but knowing what they are, and how they affect your photo is essential to knowing why a photo turns out good or bad (and how to make more of them "good"). You do have control over ISO, so get some understanding of what ISO means (which leads to the tip 2).
2) Set ISO and White Balance manually, if you have time. I know its an inconvenience to change these for each different environment. But if you have time to do it, it really helps. Keeping these on "auto" seems to extend the amount of time it takes for the image to be captured and leads to more motion blur (presumably, since the AI is taking time to do light readings and calculating the "best" settings). Also the settings it comes up with are not always very good, for instance the phone misreads the light type sometimes, and comes up with funky white balance settings.
Use as low an ISO as possible but still controlling motion blur. Higher ISO leads to more noise (analogous to grainier photos with film). But using too low an ISO forces the shutter to be open longer (to let enough light in to capture the image), which increases the chance of motion blur from either the subject moving, or camera shake. Its a matter of finding a balance between the two.
With lots of sunlight, or even partial sunlight, use a low ISO. 100 or 200 is often more than sufficient for daytime photos outside, even on a cloudy day. Indoors, you will have to increase the ISO much higher. Obviously depends on how many lamps are around, and how bright they are. But artificial lighting is much less bright than sunlight than you think. I often go to ISO 800 inside my house (when no sunlight is coming through the windows).
3) As mentioned in the previous reply, avoid flash. Flash is ok for the moments where you absolutely need to capture the shot in a low light "spur of the moment" situation. But for most situations, no flash with high ISO looks vastly better. The flash bathes the subject in a ghastly artificial LED light, overexposes the foreground, and causes the whole background to be underexposed. Just horrible. No flash and high ISO means the shutter will be open longer. But as long as the subject is not moving too much, and you keep the camera still enough, you will get a much nicer photo.
You'll notice that professional photographers will almost always use separate sources of light, or an off-camera flash, and seldom the on-camera flash. The on-camera flash on most all cameras are bad, and in particular the tiny flash units on camera phones are awful.
I heard of a study, where people were polled after viewing a set of Match.com type profile photos. Overwhelmingly, people indicated that the pics taken without flash looked younger and more attractive than the ones taken with flash. Despite the fact that some of the photos were of the same person!
4) Also as mentioned in the previous reply, the more light the better. From the last 2 tips, this would seem obvious. But there is a lot more subtlety to this than most people realize. Simply shifting the angle of the camera, or changing your position by a few feet can greatly influence how much light is entering the lens. One good example is light sources behind the subject, especially windows during daytime. Too much bright light from the background will make the subject underexposed and dark. Getting windows out of the frame of the photo can turn a throw-away shot into a real keeper.
Don't take for granted that cameras work the same way your eyes do, because they don't. Remember the exposure triangle, and use it to your advantage.
5) Brace your camera when possible, to reduce camera shake (especially in low light). In absence of a tripod, be inventive. Prop your elbows on a table, or even put the camera on the table, if you can do so without the table being in the shot. If there is a wall or column nearby, put the side of the camera against it as a brace.
6) Tap the screen to focus. Most of us with Sense know about this feature, but don't use it as much as we should. Aside from portraits, the rule of thirds (http://fixaphoto.homestead.com/digitalcameratips.html) says the best composition often results from the subject not being in the center of the shot. Therefore, since the "normal" auto-focus of pressing the shutter button halfway is center weighted, its sometimes not going to focus on the subject. So tap the screen on the subject before you take the shot. You often won't need to do this, but it can help sometimes.
7) You can force the exposure darker or brighter in Menu>Image adjustments, if you just can't seem to get the exposure right for a given ISO. One example is taking night photos, where you want to focus on streetlights or headlights. The shutter will stay open a long time, and the image will often look much brighter than you intend (and brighter than how you see it with your eyes). You can force it darker by changing the exposure. Again, not something you will often need, but once in a while can make a huge difference.
8) Practice practice practice. Every one of the tips above requires lots of practice and experimentation. With digital cameras, you really can take as many pictures as you like. You're going to end up with a ton of photos to delete. But this is really the only way to learn.
The camera on our phone certainly is not the best. The largest complaint seems to be that HTC phones over-process and create too much noise in the photo. But with the proper technique, it can take decent photos. Hopefully my tips are helpful.

Thanks !!!
Thats a very good guide
My pics are already looking better and I am still testing some options!
here: Maybe I will post some quick resoults
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HiCZoK said:
Thanks !!!
Thats a very good guide
My pics are already looking better and I am still testing some options!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Cool. Glad it helped.
Which tips are you finding most useful so far?

I am not using flash too much or at all.
Iso at auto - it seems to do a good job
Expousure -1 or even -2 in some situations
contrast and saturation defauly
Sharpness -2 and only sometimes -1
Touch focus
Also sense camera filters are really good! i like depth of field filter with circe which You can use for showing where image point of view should be centering. Kinda artificial focus.