Develop Bugs

Windows Phone 7 will have multitasking.

I'm opening a new thread so people don't have to dig thru other threads to find this.
Leaked documents show that Windows Phone 7 will indeed have multitasking after approval by Microsoft. Appearently you will need to ask Microsoft for special permission, and as such you will need to prove your need for multitasking. I'm sure it will be limited to apps such as Pandora that show a specific need for running in the background.
http://www.wmexperts.com/leak-windows-phone-7-documents-developers

Thanks for posting this. It looks like I need to start learning silverlight which I expected would be the case.
The multitasking is annoying. I dont want to have to ask for permission to enable this. Do they plan on controlling this through the app store? If its just some hidden API's they would get leaked in minutes and everyone could use them.

Weird interpretation
From the leaked documents provided, I cannot figure out how did they come to the conclusion that developers would need to ask for permission to do multitasking. It seems that the authors of the article are not really technical and had things mixed up. OEMs and MOs will have to request access to some native APIs if Managed API and provided limited native API set is not enough for their needs, which is something totally different from processes and threads. Processes and threads, or in layman terms multitasking is business as usual. I don't see any restrictions there.

Of course the OS can multitask. That's never been a question.
The question is whether third party applications will be allowed to run in the background.
There is no word on whether this is the case, and in fact, every official statement from Microsoft currently hints to this not being the case. It seems like they're going the Apple way of not allowing third party applications to run in the background.

Did anybody read the document? There's no connection between multitasking and approval. It's not going to be done with hidden APIs that can get leaked. It's not completely clear but here's what it seems to say to me:
Anyone can write C#/Silverlight apps that use the .NET Compact Framework and install them. Hopefully this will let you do most things you want to do. The big problem would be if .NET CF 4 is missing any of the "normal" useful stuff. Personally, if I can interact with calls, texts, contacts, location services (e.g. GPS) and the internet then I'm happy.
If you want to write unmanaged (i.e. C++) code or call some extra managed APIs you'll need to get the code signed. This will probably go through a similar process to Apple's app store. This should only be required for low level stuff - drivers, etc. The wording of the doc suggests that it would only be phone carriers that are likely to be using this.
Multitasking isn't mentioned, so it's only guesswork between now and MIX10.

freyberry said:
Of course the OS can multitask. That's never been a question.
The question is whether third party applications will be allowed to run in the background.
There is no word on whether this is the case, and in fact, every official statement from Microsoft currently hints to this not being the case. It seems like they're going the Apple way of not allowing third party applications to run in the background.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think it may work more like the way Android does than the way iPhone does. Android multitasks properly, but suspends non-foreground processes. Looking at the built in calendar demo, it pops in and pops out to the same place, so it's not being restarted, merely resumed.

l3v5y said:
I think it may work more like the way Android does than the way iPhone does. Android multitasks properly, but suspends non-foreground processes. Looking at the built in calendar demo, it pops in and pops out to the same place, so it's not being restarted, merely resumed.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's not how multitasking on Android works. Android applications save their state when they are sent to the background, but they continue to run. They are not suspended, unless the system runs out of RAM.
If the system runs out of RAM, then the "oldest" process that's running in the background gets killed. Since it saved its state when it was sent to the background, you can reopen it and continue where you left off.
That's exactly how multitasking *should* work.

freyberry said:
That's exactly how multitasking *should* work.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Really? Isn't it the same as stated by MS that apps will be "paused" in background? Also, how is it going to help my satnav app be at the right position when I minimize the dialer in a call?

vangrieg said:
Really? Isn't it the same as stated by MS that apps will be "paused" in background? Also, how is it going to help my satnav app be at the right position when I minimize the dialer in a call?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, it is not at all the same. Read my post again.

guys take a look at this.. this guy is playing music while navigating trough the phone..
http://www.wmexperts.com/wme-mwc-video-hands-no-2-windows-phone-7-series?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+wmexperts+(WMExperts)&utm_content=Twitter

may i ask for this thread to list facts only?
i would love this thread not to be dragged into the debate of hints and speculations. I would say, as long as we don't have something solid let's keep the speculations at the other thread.
i have seen some videos where by mistake shows multi tasking cappabilites, and i believe as long as the cappability is there (even if locked down) we can find a way around it. but we are still in the dark, maybe Microsoft will simply say that hey developers, yes we have full multitasking but not for .net cf apps, only unmanaged code can? maybe! just to ensure that not anyone can write an app to stay in the background.
Mostly the usage of multitasking is not that high, i don't keep much apps in memory. infact alot of the users of Windows Mobile (5, 6.x.x) do set their phones to close the app on X click. and most of us (including me) didn't want to run multiple apps in the background, actually that's why HTC built the Taskmanager into their ROMS. even SonyEricsson.
Of course there are exceptions for that, i would love for my Navigation app to stay in the background while my friend is playing on the phone.
the main point is we don't have any clue yet, if we get any info that is official/confirmed leak then we can get either UPSET or releafed
take it easy mates.

young blade said:
guys take a look at this.. this guy is playing music while navigating trough the phone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Music (Zune) is not a 3rd party app.

pilgrim011 said:
Music (Zune) is not a 3rd party app.
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Click to collapse
okay so its about 3th party apps in running in the background.
I'm sure it will be possible.. whats the point of not doing it and having 500+ ram in the device..
thats like tuning a car up to 999 of horse power and restricting it down to 300.

young blade said:
okay so its about 3th party apps in running in the background.
I'm sure it will be possible.. whats the point of not doing it and having 500+ ram in the device..
thats like tuning a car up to 999 of horse power and restricting it down to 300.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Don't be so sure. Unfortunately, Microsoft is heading Apple's path, the dark side...

Honestly if they make is so you have to actually program it to run the background instead of natively making everything work in the background, I beleive that would be a good thing. I have to pull the task manager up to close every app after I open it because I don't really need it in the background. For example when I use a calculator to compute something why does it need to stay up after I'm done with the calculation?
On the otherhand, If they are making it so you have to get direct permission from Microsoft and not just from the OS to run in the background that probably means they want some more money or something outta the deal and I don't think thats the best way to go. Phone these days usually have a good amount of ram to be able to run task in the background and they shouldn't underpower the device if it can handle it.

I don't think that iPhone is the way to the dark side.... they are able to make "dumb users" (I don't think you are dumb, it's a way to put it into), a way to make what they want with their device. As a higher user, you know how to manage properly a system unmanaged because you know to play properly with the system, resources, and more over, but some people just has problems knowing how to open a file...
Really, the iPhone way is bring the IT technologies to people that not usually knows or likes the IT, and use them because they must, or they like the services but not the tech itself.
I belive that maybe WP7S has become so iPhone, and we may want to drop it, but really, the human history has ever been the same. It's not about how good or how many features has a device/technology/thing, it's about how many people use it in daily life. Try to think about a space travel agency, the people will believe in space travels once people become able to go to the moon by themselves, not because the NASA did it. And no matter that NASA was able to take a "car" for the astronauts and an space agency only can bring you an your package, it just doesn't matter.

Yes, it will indeed multitask for the native apps at least. In the presentation, Joe goes to a maps app, then goes right back to the calendar app where he was. Looks like the iPhone push stuff.

Kloc said:
Honestly if they make is so you have to actually program it to run the background instead of natively making everything work in the background, I beleive that would be a good thing.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That would be the best thing they could do. That's how it *should* work.

yes, not all apps require to be able to run in the background. things like calculator for example, i hate killing it using task manager.
things like sending sms or email, when I hit the send button and close the gui, the msg should be sent to the background service and really close remove the gui interface from the memory. i hate killing tmail.exe.
and there are a lot more examples why current winmo multitasking is not right. tweaks required just to be able to completely close app like htc album, opera, etc.
i am glad that finally microsoft will address this seriously. i am not surprise that ability to run in the background will be controlled by them. it is still better being controlled rather than not allowed at all (like Apple iPhone?).
freyberry said:
That would be the best thing they could do. That's how it *should* work.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

Careful, careful....!!
You don't know HOW they're going to adress the issue. If they completely forbid multitasking, like Apple, then things will get a LOT WORSE than they are now.
I agree that not every application has to run in the background. But some MUST run in the background and it would be a huge failure if they didn't allow third party developers to use multitasking at all, like Apple.
Multitasking for each and every application, like on WM6.5, is still a lot better than no multitasking at all!!

Advantages over iPhone

Seeing as WP7 will be almost as crippled as the iPhone, let's see ways in which it will be better, besides replaceable battery and memory card(and it's not certain every OEM will follow up on those either). So far it has two weaknesses that only the iPhone has: Lack of multitasking and apps must go through the marketplace.
In order to pick up iPhone users it will have to offer some advantage that the average iPhoner will notice.
Some advantages:
Information at a glance a la today screen with the hubs. iPhone has nothing like this.
It will (supposedly) have some degree of multitasking.
Two more hardware buttons.

Its funny since I've had my HD2 I've not really used multitasking and when I had my iPhone only not being able to use Spotify in the background bugged me so maybe certainly for me multitasking isn't a be all and end all.

Having read lots of stuff about WP7S, the conclusion I have come to is this...
There will be two types of apps
1. Apps with no need to run in the background
2. Apps that do need to run in the background
Examples of type 1 are games, spreadsheets and word processors.
Examples of type 2 are IM apps like palringo, and music streaming services such as pandora.
What will happen is that when you develop an app, by default it will not have the rights to use the background APIs. In order to gain access to them and have an app run in the background, you'll need to ask Microsoft to provide the access and make it a type 2 app. Microsoft will only allow this if you can convince them it is necessary for the functioning of your app.
Type 1 apps will simply pause when the user switches away from them. They will remain in memory but will be unable to execute any code until the user switches back to them, whence they will resume execution. This will ensure the app cannot hog any CPU and cause the UI to stutter or slow down. This is definitely a good thing.
Type 2 apps are given access to particular APIs to allow them to, for instance, download updates or postings on IM systems. This will be strictly controlled and priority will always be given to the UI, again to ensure it remains smooth and responsive.
That's my take on what's going to happen, and we'll see if I'm right at MIX 2010 next month.
So your answer is - yes it will multitask but only when it is truly needed. Which to me is the best of both worlds. It will ensure a smooth user experience whilst still allowing background operations.

Jim Coleman said:
In order to gain access to them and have an app run in the background, you'll need to ask Microsoft to provide the access and make it a type 2 app. Microsoft will only allow this if you can convince them it is necessary for the functioning of your app.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Lets hope theyre not too stingy with giving out access to these API's!
The hubs/services (I'm not sure what MS is calling these) system looks good; getting new relative options available on multiple hubs just from installing a single app (like they demo'd with Facebook) should make all the apps work together much better than on an iPhone. I already want to try to make one to generate a music playlist based on past plays, and another to find lyrics to the currently playing song; If I understand the system properly, these would automatically integrate into any 3rd party apps using the appropriate media API's.
Also the context-sensitive search looks to be awesome.
One disadvantage: possible lack of native code execution and probably no OpenGL support - making it harder for iPhone app developers to port their existing apps to Windows Phone.

weesals said:
One disadvantage: possible lack of native code execution and probably no OpenGL support - making it harder for iPhone app developers to port their existing apps to Windows Phone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
why the heck should iPhone devs have an easy migration to WP7 if WM 6 devs don't?

weesals said:
Lets hope theyre not too stingy with giving out access to these API's!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The impression I'm getting so far is that they will be very stingy indeed. The only people who will ever get access to non-standard API's will be phone manufacturers and networks, and even they usually won't get access to the native API's most of the time. Microsoft will not publish any documentation about native API's. To get access to them the manufacturers will have to apply to Microsoft on a case by case basis. If Microsoft judges that a native API is required (and if there actually is one that might help) then only at that point will they release any information, and a condition of this is that they will vet the resulting piece of software to verify that the native API is being used correctly, and forbid the release of the software if it isn't.
What we don't know yet is where multi-tasking sits within all this. Is it a standard managed API, an extended managed API, or a native API?

why must every phone be compared to an iphone...personally I never liked the iphone, never will...only good thing about iphone is the apps..otherwise it sucks..and high end smartphones should not be compared to it!

The only thing I like about iPhone is how I use the virtual keyboard to type text.
I have tested HD2 and iPhone in a store, and from my own perspective, iPhone is more responsive and accurate compared to HD2.
I hope WP7 can be better than those 2 platforms in this task.
giggles33 said:
why must every phone be compared to an iphone...personally I never liked the iphone, never will...only good thing about iphone is the apps..otherwise it sucks..and high end smartphones should not be compared to it!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

gogol said:
The only thing I like about iPhone is how I use the virtual keyboard to type text.
I have tested HD2 and iPhone in a store, and from my own perspective, iPhone is more responsive and accurate compared to HD2.
I hope WP7 can be better than those 2 platforms in this task.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
that isnt aways based on the OS or software, but the quality of the touch screen.

Jim Coleman said:
Having read lots of stuff about WP7S, the conclusion I have come to is this...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This definitely seems like the best thing to do for multitasking in WP7.
We are going to need a task manager though...
As for comparing to the iPhone:
-WP7 will be available in different hardware configurations, giving the consumer a choice in the style and capability of their device.
-Xbox integration, which will most likely include Arcade games (ported for playability of touchscreens)
-Better hardware standards
-Not quite as locked down (hopefully)

RAMMANN said:
why the heck should iPhone devs have an easy migration to WP7 if WM 6 devs don't?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Because that's where the money is.

Seems people are struggling to come up with any, maybe something magical will appear in the next few weeks, although I doubt it, the advantages of WM seem like they will be gone with WP7, people on forums like this and blogs have been asking for a windows mobile iphone [without being an iphone] and it looks like they're going to heed the demand.

The most important advantages are gone.
They've made an exact copy and think it is enough. But it's not. When you try to catch up, you have to be better.
There's almost nothing WP7 is better at. It's an exact copy of iPhone OS with a better UI on top, but lacking the thousands of applications. That's not going to be enough and I really can't think about a reason why consumers and developers would be excited about this.
(and don't get me wrong - I LOVE the UI - it's just not enough)

Free Microsoft Office (Document viewing, creation, downloading, and editing)
Abobe Flash Player 10.1 is coming
File downloads (possibly)
Apps like a Wi-Fi router and file manager will likely come and be allowed
XBOX LIVE! Enough said.
Zune integration and support (I'm a Zune user)
1GHz Snapdragon is the processor minimum (This will lead to awesome apps and games)
WVGA display minimum (You might not care too much about this one, but I've seen the difference, and it's AMAZING!)
Bing search (That's just my preference.)
Contextual search (A handy feature, I suppose.)
There is not an app collection of 100,000 with most of which being totally useless. This means that you"ll be able to find the good apps.
Even if Microsoft won't allow apps like a Wi-Fi router and file manager, all we would need to do would be to get all WinPhone7 users on XDA to install the XNA Game Studio (and possibly the Win Phone7 SDK) and we could simply upload .ccgame files to XDA instead of .cab files.

giggles33 said:
why must every phone be compared to an iphone...personally I never liked the iphone, never will...only good thing about iphone is the apps..otherwise it sucks..and high end smartphones should not be compared to it!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I know! Why must smartphones always be compared to a simple feature phone! I've tried the iPhone/ iPod touch (3rd generation) at Best Buy stores, and, let's just say, they froze more and gave out more errors in 5 sec. than 5 WinMo devices did combined over the course of 2 hours. The iPhone's keyboard isn't too great either. It's (the errors thing) 100% true.

Jim Coleman said:
There will be two types of apps
1. Apps with no need to run in the background
2. Apps that do need to run in the background
Examples of type 1 are games, spreadsheets and word processors.
Examples of type 2 are IM apps like palringo, and music streaming services such as pandora.
What will happen is that when you develop an app, by default it will not have the rights to use the background APIs. In order to gain access to them and have an app run in the background, you'll need to ask Microsoft to provide the access and make it a type 2 app. Microsoft will only allow this if you can convince them it is necessary for the functioning of your app.
Type 1 apps will simply pause when the user switches away from them. They will remain in memory but will be unable to execute any code until the user switches back to them, whence they will resume execution. This will ensure the app cannot hog any CPU and cause the UI to stutter or slow down. This is definitely a good thing.
Type 2 apps are given access to particular APIs to allow them to, for instance, download updates or postings on IM systems. This will be strictly controlled and priority will always be given to the UI, again to ensure it remains smooth and responsive..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is the right answer. Anybody who calms down would see that this makes sense. More Apple-like approval process for Type 2, free reign for Type 1
Shasarak said:
The impression I'm getting so far is that they will be very stingy indeed. The only people who will ever get access to non-standard API's will be phone manufacturers and networks, and even they usually won't get access to the native API's most of the time.
What we don't know yet is where multi-tasking sits within all this. Is it a standard managed API, an extended managed API, or a native API?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, you're talking about native vs managed stuff, which is not the same as simply allowing an app to have a background process. True, AT&T and HTC will have to apply to for native API use for stuff relating to making calls, etc, but that was only about OEMS and network operators.
Regular 3rd party guys, of which there are many, will be expected to get a way to do what they need on the device. Pandora we've seen in Music, you can expect apps like Palringo showing up in People

burnblue said:
This is the right answer. Anybody who calms down would see that this makes sense. More Apple-like approval process for Type 2, free reign for Type 1
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just because it makes sense doesn't mean Microsoft will act like that. In fact, I'm sure they will not.

The mass market will not benefit from every joe having all the API's because it's going make programs that cause glitches/crashes/memory leaks, etc. They are doing what they think is best for mass market and that is make sure things work well on the device and everything is user friendly with the least amount of hiccups possible. So that means more restrictions on us.

^^^ +1
Jim Coleman said:
What will happen is that when you develop an app, by default it will not have the rights to use the background APIs. In order to gain access to them and have an app run in the background, you'll need to ask Microsoft to provide the access and make it a type 2 app. Microsoft will only allow this if you can convince them it is necessary for the functioning of your app.
Type 1 apps will simply pause when the user switches away from them. They will remain in memory but will be unable to execute any code until the user switches back to them, whence they will resume execution. This will ensure the app cannot hog any CPU and cause the UI to stutter or slow down. This is definitely a good thing.
Type 2 apps are given access to particular APIs to allow them to, for instance, download updates or postings on IM systems. This will be strictly controlled and priority will always be given to the UI, again to ensure it remains smooth and responsive.
That's my take on what's going to happen, and we'll see if I'm right at MIX 2010 next month.
So your answer is - yes it will multitask but only when it is truly needed. Which to me is the best of both worlds. It will ensure a smooth user experience whilst still allowing background operations.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This neither solves problems nor guarantees anything though. Poor code is still poor code. Too many apps running is STILL too many apps running (slows the UI). MS can police neither. So, your #2 solution really makes no sense and has no advantages. MS has no way of predicting who will run what app and when on their phones. What if a user chooses to run several "Type 2" apps? Will you get some sort of error message? Will the MS police arrest you for ruining the UI experience? What happens after several years of approved type 2 apps hitting the market? Now were back to the same problems of WM.

Dude, we're talking about 1Ghz+, 512MB+ RAM phones here! You can run lots of apps without slowing anything down. Really, the "multitasking slows down the UI" argument is utter bull****. A good OS handles multitasking in a way that doesn't slow down anything. Restrictions are only necessary if the OS itself sucks. A good OS doesn't need them.

Hub is a new type of multitasking

I read more information about WP7 and the concept of Hub. I estimate the HUB is a new type of multitasking. The concept is OS will push the application to back group and freeze the UI, and the information for application will push to HUB, so user can catch the information from HUB. For example, while user using the TomTom,when you need return to Home,OS would push the TomTom to backgroup,and freeze the TomTom's UI ,music...,but user still can see the inf. from HUB eg, speed,direction)
Do you agree ?
Anyway , I love the concept of WP7 and HUB

Great thing about this hub. I think all these cries about no multitasking is stupid thing, because of not understanding the idea of hub...

iamcrazyfire said:
I read more information about WP7 and the concept of Hub. I estimate the HUB is a new type of multitasking. The concept is OS will push the application to back group and freeze the UI, and the information for application will push to HUB, so user can catch the information from HUB. For example, while user using the TomTom,when you need return to Home,OS would push the TomTom to backgroup,and freeze the TomTom's UI ,music...,but user still can see the inf. from HUB eg, speed,direction)
Do you agree ?
Anyway , I love the concept of WP7 and HUB
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yup...same as iphone.
In iphone you decide which application gets prime attention. The "one" button is the task killer. The apps on the pages is akin to the apps listed on a task manager. You pick which one you want to switch to. The others tasks are frozen.

Don't iPhone tasks actually end meaning their state is lost?

RustyGrom said:
Don't iPhone tasks actually end meaning their state is lost?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not really....they are frozen (hibernate).
U start right back from where u left off.
Can't say that about games though.

chiks19018 said:
Yup...same as iphone.
In iphone you decide which application gets prime attention. The "one" button is the task killer. The apps on the pages is akin to the apps listed on a task manager. You pick which one you want to switch to. The others tasks are frozen.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
But iphone freeze whole application, the concept of mine is wp7 only freeze the UI and sound,wps7 stills allow application push the information to hub.If wps only run managed code is true ,this type of multitasking(multithreading) will not cash the whole OS cause of one of shiit

iamcrazyfire said:
But iphone freeze whole application, the concept of mine is wp7 only freeze the UI and sound,wps7 stills allow application push the information to hub.If wps only run managed code is true ,this type of multitasking(multithreading) will not cash the whole OS cause of one of shiit
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yeah...when iphone comes with 1.5ghz dual core processor, it will allow that too.

Multitasking requires that processing continues while the app doesn't have focus. What's being described above is simply suspending the app...not multitasking.
A good use of multitasking for example is: running a navigation app such as CoPilot 8, downloading a file with IE and talking on the phone all simultaneously. Ideally, you wouldn't want any of those apps to stop or suspend, you'd want them to continue running even though another app still has focus.
I don't know how a non-true-multitasking OS would handle doing what I just described. Even if it employed a sophisticated system of notifications and interrupts, I don't see how. I hope MS has a good work-around developed for WP7. My daily use of multitasking includes the use of MagiCall call manager app which always runs in the background filtering my SMS's and phone calls. iPhone doesn't have an app like that because it doesn't truly multitask.

Running a navigation software and then taking a phone call ... I have done this a lot and it is a good use-case.
And I dont think the new WP7 cannot do this. It is a phone device, taking a phone call should be the highest priority.
This would suck if the navigation software is then paused, I hope not. How is this on the iPhone?
But, running a navigation software ... while downloading a file ... and then taking a phone call?
You must be more specific, because I cannot imagine myself, on a running car using CoPilot and still managing my torrents That's dangerous ...
WhyBe said:
Multitasking requires that processing continues while the app doesn't have focus. What's being described above is simply suspending the app...not multitasking.
A good use of multitasking for example is: running a navigation app such as CoPilot 8, downloading a file with IE and talking on the phone all simultaneously. Ideally, you wouldn't want any of those apps to stop or suspend, you'd want them to continue running even though another app still has focus.
I don't know how a non-true-multitasking OS would handle doing what I just described. Even if it employed a sophisticated system of notifications and interrupts, I don't see how. I hope MS has a good work-around developed for WP7. My daily use of multitasking includes the use of MagiCall call manager app which always runs in the background filtering my SMS's and phone calls. iPhone doesn't have an app like that because it doesn't truly multitask.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

well those were just random examples to illustrate the type of apps that you DON'T want to suspend when they don't have focus.

WhyBe said:
well those were just random examples to illustrate the type of apps that you DON'T want to suspend when they don't have focus.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
how important is downloading the file in the whole scheme of things?
Not very much. It might benefit to stop that process and use the available power to work what you can actually see.

I think its pointless to rationalize away the need to multitask. Hopefully, MS has worked out a reasonable compromise in WP7 until it's feasible to have true multitasking AND seamless performance in a mobile form factor.
I use a call manager (MagiCall) which runs in the background. I know they don't have this type of app for non-jailbroken iPhones because it doesn't multitask.
My typical multitasking is CoPilot, MagiCall and MS Voice Command reading my text messages. This is not an unrealistic expectation. I'm hoping WP7 will have some sort of scheme to allow the same functionality.

why would you need MSVC reading text messages when the Copilot is giving out instructions?doesn't make sense.

Here is what makes sense:
Only 1 voice/sound application can be actively running at any given time. Cannot have the games music, music player, MSVC, Copilot all talking/playing at the same time.
Can have only 1 graphic application running at 1 time. I.e. Panel refresh possible only for the foregorund application.
Multiple task possible for data-fetch/push application.
Anything more is unreasonable.

chiks19018 said:
why would you need MSVC reading text messages when the Copilot is giving out instructions?doesn't make sense.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Seems kind of obvious to me...IDK. If I am driving, it is very convenient for everything to be audible as opposed to visual. So voiced text messages are better when driving as well as voiced navigation instructions. What would be kick ass is if I could get some speech-to-text to reply to my messages vocally.
Call/SMS firewalling is enough reason for me to desire multitasking in a phone. Perhaps these could be implemented using some sort of interupt system in WP7.

I must be nuts even reading such needs & requirements

you think i'll be able to log onto an IM client and then surf the net and await for messages? or do i have to turn on some type of forward to text feature? that's probably my biggest concern. everything elsle, i could probably live w/ teh "suspend."
though if i was downloading a song or movie or smething, i'd hate to have to wait for it to finish before i can do something else...

chiks19018 said:
how important is downloading the file in the whole scheme of things?
Not very much. It might benefit to stop that process and use the available power to work what you can actually see.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Why would it be a benefit to stop a file downloading in the background?
If you're downloading a large file, you don't want to sit staring at your phone's screen waiting until it finishes downloading before you can do anything else.
If you're so primitive that you can't find something for your phone to do while you're doing something else on it, I don't know why you bother having a smartphone.

Well, have you ever downloaded a large file to your phone?
Probably ...
But me? No, never ...
Why?
Because if I am at home, I will use my desktop PC to download which so much faster than my mobile phone. Think, the download speed is not only related to the internet connection.
Then I will pull my SDHC card, copy the file from the desktop.
Super fast, painless.
You can argue "What if you are not at home?"
I will not download that large file ... what kind of large file I must download while on the go to put in my mobile phone? Movie? How long before the battery runs out? Better to do something else
elyl said:
Why would it be a benefit to stop a file downloading in the background?
If you're downloading a large file, you don't want to sit staring at your phone's screen waiting until it finishes downloading before you can do anything else.
If you're so primitive that you can't find something for your phone to do while you're doing something else on it, I don't know why you bother having a smartphone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

elyl said:
Why would it be a benefit to stop a file downloading in the background?
If you're downloading a large file, you don't want to sit staring at your phone's screen waiting until it finishes downloading before you can do anything else.
If you're so primitive that you can't find something for your phone to do while you're doing something else on it, I don't know why you bother having a smartphone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry. I got that wrong. File downloads/datapush/fetch can and should continue in the background. nothing wrong with that. Just never give those processes top priority is what I really meant. Push comes to shove, those processes should be suspended for the benefit of the process on the screen.

WP7s support multitasking

as my assumption ,OS freeze the application but still allow application to update the hub
http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/17/windows-phone-7-series-multitasking-the-real-deal/
We've definitely learned a ton about Windows Phone 7 Series here at MIX, but getting the full picture on multitasking has been difficult, since the OS isn't ready, no one has final hardware, and the emulator seems to behave differently than actual devices and Microsoft's descriptions. So let's set the record straight on multitasking: it's not going to happen, at least not in the traditional way. Not only have we directly confirmed this with Microsoft executives several times, but the developer sessions here are totally clear on the matter -- you don't tell 1000+ devs that they should expect their apps to be killed whenever the user switches away from them if you don't mean it. Now, that's not to say that the OS can't do multitasking: first-party apps like the Zune player and IE can run in the background, and third-party apps are actually left running in a suspended state (Microsoft calls it "dehydrated") as long as the system doesn't need any additional resources. If the user cycles back to an app, it's resumed ("rehydrated") and life continues merrily along, but if the user opens other apps and the system needs additional resources, the app is killed without any indication or remorse.
If that sounds familiar, it's because it's basically a single-tasking riff on Android and Windows Mobile 6, both of which also purport to intelligently manage multiple running applications like this, and both of which usually find themselves greatly improved with manual task managers. We'll have to see if Windows Phone 7 Series can do a better job once it ships -- we have a feeling it will -- and later down the line we'll see if Microsoft decides to extend multitasking to third-party apps. But for now, just know that you're not going to be running Pandora in the background while you do other tasks on a 7 Series device -- it is a question we have specifically asked, and the answer, unfortunately, is no.

so it doesn't support multitasking... at least not in a tradition sense.
but i guess this isn't too bad.. i mean, as long as i can start writing an email and then go online and then come right back to my cursor... or play a game, hit pause, send a text, and then come right back to pause screen.
hopefully i can connect to a site, switch to text... while i'm writing a text, wait for the webpage to load, and come back.
anyway, i'm pretty sure if MS can't compete w/ the ipod, MS can't compete w/ the iphone.

They have actually did a demo on loading websites in the background while doing other stuff so that will be possible.

why is it so hard to update my Yomomedia feeds while sending a text message?
It's plain dumb. RAM is made for a reason.

Now, that's not to say that the OS can't do multitasking: first-party apps like the Zune player and IE can run in the background...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thats nice for the Zune-Player and the IE, but what if I want to use a different player or browser?
rorytmeadows said:
why is it so hard to update my Yomomedia feeds while sending a text message?
It's plain dumb. RAM is made for a reason.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
WORD! Its really funny thoug how all those people here defending the decision not to include MT by asking what application really needs it. My opinion, every app that loads longer than 1 second, because that is how fast I activate a minimized application right now!
And on a sidenote, notebooks had limited amounts of ram and processing power combined with terrible running times for decades, and no fool ever came up with the idea of disabling MT to solve those problems...

Both the stock iPhone and WPS7 supports multitasking only for their own applications, so you will be able to play music in the background, browse the net with either the stock browser or third party browser. In the case of stock iPhone, a third party application called Nike can also run in the background but that's a rare exception Apple has made.
To be able to run third party applications in the background, the jailbreaking community gives us tweaks such as Backgrounder, Kirikae, Circuituous, Multiflow.
I think something similar might happen to WPS7. Some technical gurus either from the XDA community or other places might do something similar and jailbreak and introduce background processing capability for third party applications.

rorytmeadows said:
why is it so hard to update my Yomomedia feeds while sending a text message?
It's plain dumb. RAM is made for a reason.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Why?
OS still allows application keep running,OS just stops the UI rendering ,stops the playing music

eaglesteve said:
Both the stock iPhone and WPS7 supports multitasking only for their own applications, so you will be able to play music in the background, browse the net with either the stock browser or third party browser. In the case of stock iPhone, a third party application called Nike can also run in the background but that's a rare exception Apple has made.
To be able to run third party applications in the background, the jailbreaking community gives us tweaks such as Backgrounder, Kirikae, Circuituous, Multiflow.
I think something similar might happen to WPS7. Some technical gurus either from the XDA community or other places might do something similar and jailbreak and introduce background processing capability for third party applications.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It is patently absurd that Microsoft, of all companies, would enforce such a limitation. What about applications that you want to respond to the Accelerometer? Light sensor? Any other system events built into the OS/tool-kit? They have written all sorts of cool stuff like the Reactive Extensions (which isn't just for mobile) - how is this supposed to work if it doesn't support multitasking? How is my app supposed to respond to environmental events if it isn't freaking running?!

bjhill2112 said:
How is my app supposed to respond to environmental events if it isn't freaking running?!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, to be fair, MS has a way for it in WM, it's called persistent notifications, which works in many (not all) cases. It doesn't seem to be included in WP7 though, I don't see any traces of SNAPI.

vangrieg said:
Well, to be fair, MS has a way for it in WM, it's called persistent notifications, which works in many (not all) cases. It doesn't seem to be included in WP7 though, I don't see any traces of SNAPI.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I've been poking around in the tool kit and I can't find anything either.

MS says new multi-task in wm 7 is more like as iphone's
some apps will suspenses, then system will shut them automatically to clean up system resources

bestfan said:
MS says new multi-task in wm 7 is more like as iphone's
some apps will suspenses, then system will shut them automatically to clean up system resources
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No ,it is different, on wp7s, while apps suspense to background ,apps still allow update the hubs and tiles and multi apps can be suspended to background

WP7 and multitask

Until now we know that wp7 will not have multitasking
how can be a bussiness phone without multitask?
we know all the problems with iOS on iphone
if someone call you when writting mail you loosing your mail.. bla bla
maybe before 2-3 and more years back with lower cpu and ram the multitask had bad things
now with minimum device as HD2 1GHz and more than 512mb ram you can use many apps without any problem... what is your oppinion???
maybe will waitting for android 3 before jump to wp7

The minimum ram is 256mb.
1st party apps (ie email) can multitask. I believe even 3rd party apps will remain running during a phone call.
At this point in time, WP7 is not being positioned to target business users.

b16b said:
Until now we know that wp7 will not have multitasking
how can be a bussiness phone without multitask?
we know all the problems with iOS on iphone
if someone call you when writting mail you loosing your mail.. bla bla
maybe before 2-3 and more years back with lower cpu and ram the multitask had bad things
now with minimum device as HD2 1GHz and more than 512mb ram you can use many apps without any problem... what is your oppinion???
maybe will waitting for android 3 before jump to wp7
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
if someone call you when writting mail you loosing your mail
This is not true ,wp7 will save your email status in memory when someone call you.

b16b said:
Until now we know that wp7 will not have multitasking
how can be a bussiness phone without multitask?
we know all the problems with iOS on iphone
if someone call you when writting mail you loosing your mail.. bla bla
maybe before 2-3 and more years back with lower cpu and ram the multitask had bad things
now with minimum device as HD2 1GHz and more than 512mb ram you can use many apps without any problem... what is your oppinion???
maybe will waitting for android 3 before jump to wp7
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Actually any app when closed saves its current state 1st or 3rd party apps. so you will not loose you email.

so can you listen to music while writing a text?

You can listen to zune while doing anything on the phone but you won't be able to listen to something like pandora and write a text.

theomni said:
so can you listen to music while writing a text?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
1st part apps multitask, so you'll be able to listen to zune and write a text.
What I'm curious about is what they mean by 1st part apps multitask, are there any rules here? Do some 1st party apps tombstone even if you don't want them to?
For Example.
If I:
1) listen to zune
2) open ie
3) open upto 6 tabs
4) open 3rd party app
What will the device do?
Will Zune keep playing, Will IE continue to load the 6 tabs while I'm playing with the 3rd party app Or will IE tombstone itself and/or stop loading the tabs when it loses focus.

gom99 said:
1st part apps multitask, so you'll be able to listen to zune and write a text.
What I'm curious about is what they mean by 1st part apps multitask, are there any rules here? Do some 1st party apps tombstone even if you don't want them to?
For Example.
If I:
1) listen to zune
2) open ie
3) open upto 6 tabs
4) open 3rd party app
What will the device do?
Will Zune keep playing, Will IE continue to load the 6 tabs while I'm playing with the 3rd party app Or will IE tombstone itself and/or stop loading the tabs when it loses focus.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
all 1st party apps will continue to do what they are doing including ie will continue to load the 6 pages however when you go back to ie or zune the 3rd party app will go to sleep / or be closed to its current state

RustyGrom said:
The minimum ram is 256mb.
1st party apps (ie email) can multitask. I believe even 3rd party apps will remain running during a phone call.
At this point in time, WP7 is not being positioned to target business users.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
IE does multitask, most don't do much (though the synchronisation services multitask).

rruffman said:
all 1st party apps will continue to do what they are doing including ie will continue to load the 6 pages however when you go back to ie or zune the 3rd party app will go to sleep / or be closed to its current state
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Is that 100% confirmed i.e. have you had hands on experience with an actual device. Or is it just what you assume will happen?

gom99 said:
Is that 100% confirmed i.e. have you had hands on experience with an actual device. Or is it just what you assume will happen?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have the emu which runs the same os as the test phones...

rruffman said:
I have the emu which runs the same os as the test phones...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
so do I, but I can't really play anything on Zune to really test it. IE does load its tabs with a 3rd party program open in the emulator atm though.

gom99 said:
so do I, but I can't really play anything on Zune to really test it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i was speaking of the ie zune is been stated several times and i believe there are videos on youtube that show this...
if you want to get final answer you can post a question here http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/windowsphone7series/threads

This sounds better than I thought! This fuction with the 1st party apps multi-tasking is more than enough for me. It allmost never happens that I use 2 3th party apps (and if I do pausing or freezing that app would be more than enough)
I think true multi-tasking uses more energy than it delivers pleasure for me!
(and really, the multi tasking on the iphone is so crappy! They say it's true but like other things they deliver a illusion and because it has an apple logo on it, everbody excepts it.....)

The biggest problem would be using apps like Pandora. I stream that all day at work while I do things like text and email. Maybe Pandora can be integrated into the zune player so that it will not terminate while doing other things. I think we will have to see how the Pandora developers handle it. This is the only app that I can think of where I would need true multi-tasking.

n8huntsman said:
The biggest problem would be using apps like Pandora. I stream that all day at work while I do things like text and email. Maybe Pandora can be integrated into the zune player so that it will not terminate while doing other things. I think we will have to see how the Pandora developers handle it. This is the only app that I can think of where I would need true multi-tasking.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It will not work at launch but resources for this to work in the near future will be available within the first year.. most likly by summer of 2011..

I'm waking this thread to life again after getting surprised by the latest development kit. Yesterday I uninstalled the old Dev kit and downloaded a fresh one from MS.
Aside from the Panorama and Pivot controls, I noted that my application didn't turn of when I went back to the home screen, and if I press the back button in the home screen I can go back to the place I was. The same thing applies even if I take some tours in Internet Explorer or the settings.
So where does this leave the multitasking question? It's interesting that is seems to support it, but really, the task-switch method isn't the smoothest I've seen.

would it be possible for someone to make a task manager app?

No, not without extended permissions.
But i assume that all apps are suspended while in the background and therefore use zero CPU power. They will probably be killed instantly if the device runs out of memory.

Sir. Haxalot said:
I'm waking this thread to life again after getting surprised by the latest development kit. Yesterday I uninstalled the old Dev kit and downloaded a fresh one from MS.
Aside from the Panorama and Pivot controls, I noted that my application didn't turn of when I went back to the home screen, and if I press the back button in the home screen I can go back to the place I was. The same thing applies even if I take some tours in Internet Explorer or the settings.
So where does this leave the multitasking question? It's interesting that is seems to support it, but really, the task-switch method isn't the smoothest I've seen.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
your apps are not killed only suspended this is what i have been telling people all along it is mostly the same as what most call "multi task" as you can never have two apps in the foreground anyway and if you can return to the previous state of an app this is pretty much the behavor of what your apps do on any os ie ios, android wm6.5 the only thing is 3party apps that play music or gps will not be able to work in the background but for music this is what zune is for and is well put together so not sure if there will be a need for pandora and as far as gps not sure if you will need this on to be actually running in the background pausing it will be more than fine for now. I don't think there will be any gps apps other than bing available at launch for wp7 and i am sure none of the current ones that work on wm6.5 will work. so this one may take care of its self when gps app become available..