Develop Bugs

Windows Phone 7 will have multitasking.

I'm opening a new thread so people don't have to dig thru other threads to find this.
Leaked documents show that Windows Phone 7 will indeed have multitasking after approval by Microsoft. Appearently you will need to ask Microsoft for special permission, and as such you will need to prove your need for multitasking. I'm sure it will be limited to apps such as Pandora that show a specific need for running in the background.
http://www.wmexperts.com/leak-windows-phone-7-documents-developers

Thanks for posting this. It looks like I need to start learning silverlight which I expected would be the case.
The multitasking is annoying. I dont want to have to ask for permission to enable this. Do they plan on controlling this through the app store? If its just some hidden API's they would get leaked in minutes and everyone could use them.

Weird interpretation
From the leaked documents provided, I cannot figure out how did they come to the conclusion that developers would need to ask for permission to do multitasking. It seems that the authors of the article are not really technical and had things mixed up. OEMs and MOs will have to request access to some native APIs if Managed API and provided limited native API set is not enough for their needs, which is something totally different from processes and threads. Processes and threads, or in layman terms multitasking is business as usual. I don't see any restrictions there.

Of course the OS can multitask. That's never been a question.
The question is whether third party applications will be allowed to run in the background.
There is no word on whether this is the case, and in fact, every official statement from Microsoft currently hints to this not being the case. It seems like they're going the Apple way of not allowing third party applications to run in the background.

Did anybody read the document? There's no connection between multitasking and approval. It's not going to be done with hidden APIs that can get leaked. It's not completely clear but here's what it seems to say to me:
Anyone can write C#/Silverlight apps that use the .NET Compact Framework and install them. Hopefully this will let you do most things you want to do. The big problem would be if .NET CF 4 is missing any of the "normal" useful stuff. Personally, if I can interact with calls, texts, contacts, location services (e.g. GPS) and the internet then I'm happy.
If you want to write unmanaged (i.e. C++) code or call some extra managed APIs you'll need to get the code signed. This will probably go through a similar process to Apple's app store. This should only be required for low level stuff - drivers, etc. The wording of the doc suggests that it would only be phone carriers that are likely to be using this.
Multitasking isn't mentioned, so it's only guesswork between now and MIX10.

freyberry said:
Of course the OS can multitask. That's never been a question.
The question is whether third party applications will be allowed to run in the background.
There is no word on whether this is the case, and in fact, every official statement from Microsoft currently hints to this not being the case. It seems like they're going the Apple way of not allowing third party applications to run in the background.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think it may work more like the way Android does than the way iPhone does. Android multitasks properly, but suspends non-foreground processes. Looking at the built in calendar demo, it pops in and pops out to the same place, so it's not being restarted, merely resumed.

l3v5y said:
I think it may work more like the way Android does than the way iPhone does. Android multitasks properly, but suspends non-foreground processes. Looking at the built in calendar demo, it pops in and pops out to the same place, so it's not being restarted, merely resumed.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's not how multitasking on Android works. Android applications save their state when they are sent to the background, but they continue to run. They are not suspended, unless the system runs out of RAM.
If the system runs out of RAM, then the "oldest" process that's running in the background gets killed. Since it saved its state when it was sent to the background, you can reopen it and continue where you left off.
That's exactly how multitasking *should* work.

freyberry said:
That's exactly how multitasking *should* work.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Really? Isn't it the same as stated by MS that apps will be "paused" in background? Also, how is it going to help my satnav app be at the right position when I minimize the dialer in a call?

vangrieg said:
Really? Isn't it the same as stated by MS that apps will be "paused" in background? Also, how is it going to help my satnav app be at the right position when I minimize the dialer in a call?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, it is not at all the same. Read my post again.

guys take a look at this.. this guy is playing music while navigating trough the phone..
http://www.wmexperts.com/wme-mwc-video-hands-no-2-windows-phone-7-series?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+wmexperts+(WMExperts)&utm_content=Twitter

may i ask for this thread to list facts only?
i would love this thread not to be dragged into the debate of hints and speculations. I would say, as long as we don't have something solid let's keep the speculations at the other thread.
i have seen some videos where by mistake shows multi tasking cappabilites, and i believe as long as the cappability is there (even if locked down) we can find a way around it. but we are still in the dark, maybe Microsoft will simply say that hey developers, yes we have full multitasking but not for .net cf apps, only unmanaged code can? maybe! just to ensure that not anyone can write an app to stay in the background.
Mostly the usage of multitasking is not that high, i don't keep much apps in memory. infact alot of the users of Windows Mobile (5, 6.x.x) do set their phones to close the app on X click. and most of us (including me) didn't want to run multiple apps in the background, actually that's why HTC built the Taskmanager into their ROMS. even SonyEricsson.
Of course there are exceptions for that, i would love for my Navigation app to stay in the background while my friend is playing on the phone.
the main point is we don't have any clue yet, if we get any info that is official/confirmed leak then we can get either UPSET or releafed
take it easy mates.

young blade said:
guys take a look at this.. this guy is playing music while navigating trough the phone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Music (Zune) is not a 3rd party app.

pilgrim011 said:
Music (Zune) is not a 3rd party app.
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Click to collapse
okay so its about 3th party apps in running in the background.
I'm sure it will be possible.. whats the point of not doing it and having 500+ ram in the device..
thats like tuning a car up to 999 of horse power and restricting it down to 300.

young blade said:
okay so its about 3th party apps in running in the background.
I'm sure it will be possible.. whats the point of not doing it and having 500+ ram in the device..
thats like tuning a car up to 999 of horse power and restricting it down to 300.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Don't be so sure. Unfortunately, Microsoft is heading Apple's path, the dark side...

Honestly if they make is so you have to actually program it to run the background instead of natively making everything work in the background, I beleive that would be a good thing. I have to pull the task manager up to close every app after I open it because I don't really need it in the background. For example when I use a calculator to compute something why does it need to stay up after I'm done with the calculation?
On the otherhand, If they are making it so you have to get direct permission from Microsoft and not just from the OS to run in the background that probably means they want some more money or something outta the deal and I don't think thats the best way to go. Phone these days usually have a good amount of ram to be able to run task in the background and they shouldn't underpower the device if it can handle it.

I don't think that iPhone is the way to the dark side.... they are able to make "dumb users" (I don't think you are dumb, it's a way to put it into), a way to make what they want with their device. As a higher user, you know how to manage properly a system unmanaged because you know to play properly with the system, resources, and more over, but some people just has problems knowing how to open a file...
Really, the iPhone way is bring the IT technologies to people that not usually knows or likes the IT, and use them because they must, or they like the services but not the tech itself.
I belive that maybe WP7S has become so iPhone, and we may want to drop it, but really, the human history has ever been the same. It's not about how good or how many features has a device/technology/thing, it's about how many people use it in daily life. Try to think about a space travel agency, the people will believe in space travels once people become able to go to the moon by themselves, not because the NASA did it. And no matter that NASA was able to take a "car" for the astronauts and an space agency only can bring you an your package, it just doesn't matter.

Yes, it will indeed multitask for the native apps at least. In the presentation, Joe goes to a maps app, then goes right back to the calendar app where he was. Looks like the iPhone push stuff.

Kloc said:
Honestly if they make is so you have to actually program it to run the background instead of natively making everything work in the background, I beleive that would be a good thing.
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Click to collapse
That would be the best thing they could do. That's how it *should* work.

yes, not all apps require to be able to run in the background. things like calculator for example, i hate killing it using task manager.
things like sending sms or email, when I hit the send button and close the gui, the msg should be sent to the background service and really close remove the gui interface from the memory. i hate killing tmail.exe.
and there are a lot more examples why current winmo multitasking is not right. tweaks required just to be able to completely close app like htc album, opera, etc.
i am glad that finally microsoft will address this seriously. i am not surprise that ability to run in the background will be controlled by them. it is still better being controlled rather than not allowed at all (like Apple iPhone?).
freyberry said:
That would be the best thing they could do. That's how it *should* work.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

Careful, careful....!!
You don't know HOW they're going to adress the issue. If they completely forbid multitasking, like Apple, then things will get a LOT WORSE than they are now.
I agree that not every application has to run in the background. But some MUST run in the background and it would be a huge failure if they didn't allow third party developers to use multitasking at all, like Apple.
Multitasking for each and every application, like on WM6.5, is still a lot better than no multitasking at all!!

Multi-tasking confirmed..?

Just tried out the Windows Phone 7 Visual Studio. I made a simple application which simply spawns a thread and uses it to update a textbox, showing how long the application has been open.
If I start the application, then press the Windows button and open Internet Explorer then the application appears to continue running. That is, if I press the Windows button and choose my application again, the count continues and had been successfully updating while IE was open.
However, if I press the back key from my application then that does indeed appear to close the application.
So... Multi-tasking is confirmed, albeit simply.

Barguast said:
Just tried out the Windows Phone 7 Visual Studio. I made a simple application which simply spawns a thread and uses it to update a textbox, showing how long the application has been open.
If I start the application, then press the Windows button and open Internet Explorer then the application appears to continue running (that is, if I press the Windows button and choose my application again, the count continues and had been successfully updating while IE was open).
However, if I press the back key from my application then that does indeed appear to close the application.
So... Multi-tasking is confirmed, albeit simply.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Or not. It's been said already. NO 3RD PARTY MULTITASKING AVAIABLE. Just save states and such.

Try it. It works. Microsoft have stressed how like-for-like the emulator is with their hardware. This shows that multitasking is possible. Whether they restrict it at the distribution level (i.e. rejecting multi-tasking apps for Marketplace) is another matter.
Out of interest, where was it confirmed that multi-tasking for third party apps was a no-no? I vaguely recall a leaked developers' document.

Barguast said:
Try it. It works. Microsoft have stressed how like-for-like the emulator is with their hardware. This shows that multitasking is possible. Whether they restrict it at the distribution level (i.e. rejecting multi-tasking apps for Marketplace) is another matter.
Out of interest, where was it confirmed that multi-tasking for third party apps was a no-no? I vaguely recall a leaked developers' document.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't disbelive that it's working on emulator but I've been watching MIX steamed live. I heard this directly from a WP7 developers mouth. Can't get anymore confirmed then that.

perhaps it's because you're running a native app and a 3rd party app? Try running 2 3rd party apps to see if one shuts down maybe?

Yeah try running 2 3rd party apps. Native apps will be able to multitasking with each other and 1 3rd party app. Meaning we can still listen to music, surf the web, make a phone call, and run a 3rd party app all at the same time. From what I understand.

Kloc said:
Yeah try running 2 3rd party apps. Native apps will be able to multitasking with each other and 1 3rd party app. Meaning we can still listen to music, surf the web, make a phone call, and run a 3rd party app all at the same time. From what I understand.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's actually not so bad, especially if special 3rd party vendors can make apps that can multitask as well. Like Opera for example, in case you wanted a new browser.
But that's true Multitasking for one 3rd party app with native apps. On the iphone, doesn't it suspend your app if it's not the main application running regardless of if you use a native app? I'm not sure though.

gom99 said:
That's actually not so bad, especially if special 3rd party vendors can make apps that can multitask as well. Like Opera for example, in case you wanted a new browser.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well they said certain apps that need access to the Native API should beable to get it. For example they mentioned pandora will be able to run in the background.

gom99 said:
That's actually not so bad, especially if special 3rd party vendors can make apps that can multitask as well. Like Opera for example, in case you wanted a new browser.
But that's true Multitasking for one 3rd party app with native apps. On the iphone, doesn't it suspend your app if it's not the main application running regardless of if you use a native app? I'm not sure though.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The guy said specifically if you are loading a webpage and then switch over to the home and make a call or read email the webpage will continue to load in the background.

Kloc said:
The guy said specifically if you are loading a webpage and then switch over to the home and make a call or read email the webpage will continue to load in the background.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Having seen it for myself in person and unscripted. I still don't know how to feel about this. I was one of the biggest proponents of WP7 Multitasking...but I'm not sure if any of this can be considered so, after seeing it with my own eyes.
Yes, the system saves app state so when you return to it you can continue from that point.
Yes, you can cycle through multiple open apps by using the back button. You can also use the back button from the Home to cycle backwards as well.
But you can't, REALLY multitask with 3rd party apps. Unless they are built to take advantage of the Push Notifications systems, once you close them they die. They can pause, but only the core system functions will actually RUN (its not even clear if they are running, per se) in the background. I did see at one point, the guy was showing off a game, received a notification in the middle of it from his calendar appointment, he checked it and resumed the game. That could technically be considered multitasking...I guess but it not traditional M$ or WebOS style.
However if I were to be so bold as to give an opinion on it..I will say. Its better than traditional Multitasking. It really does walk a fine line between OSX and Android, but its something completely in its own. Push MAX as we have been calling it. I like it, powerusers may not.
~style~
I don't know whether to put foot in mouth or not, from my earlier statements. But just to play it safe I will admit that I was wrong on a few things, kinda...lol. Even seeing it for myself I don't know what to make of it. Of course my camera was stolen maybe 20 minutes after buying it...lol Vegas is wild. I do have some terrible phone pics and vids but as we all know WM camera vids aren't worth the crap.

style1 said:
Even seeing it for myself I don't know what to make of it. Of course my camera was stolen maybe 20 minutes after buying it...lol Vegas is wild. I do have some terrible phone pics and vids but as we all know WM camera vids aren't worth the crap.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You should get a HD2

pl
mazzarin said:
You should get a HD2
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yeah I went the acer route...not a fan of Manilla..
plus no use in buying outdated tech...burn...jk jk I promise
~style1~

Hahaha ouch, touche.

Kloc said:
Yeah try running 2 3rd party apps.
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Click to collapse
Well, see my post here.

dally said:
Well, see my post here.
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Click to collapse
Interesting. There are a couple of other tests I might try. For example, playing audio on a background app.
Odd that it isn't been proven in practice, but (apparently) denied by Microsoft. I didn't get to watch much of MIX, but I did hear that the emulator is essentially a virtual machine and if it works in that, it'll work on the phone.

I made a couple simple tests too.
Test #1:
Video playback.
Video played successfully (heard sound) when i returned to start menu via WINDOWS button and started an IE, but it stopped eventually after a few seconds then. Looks like a background application is "put to sleep" if it takes too much resources. When i got back to app, video resumed.
Test #2:
Simultaneous audio playback in 2 apps. When i entered the 2nd app, audio from 1st app stopped and audio from 2nd app played.
Test #3:
Background audio playback.
Audio from a single app successfully played when i browsed in IE and played around in other apps.
So, at least in emulator, there's a multitasking, but looks like there's also a host process that looks after device resources and pauses/closes? applications when device is low on them.
Then again, BACK button kills app immediately.
Update
Test #4:
App1 - Audio, App2 - Video
When App2 is active and App1 is background, i can see both video (with sound) and hear audio from 1st app in background. When i exit to start menu, video pauses, but audio from App1 plays!

WP7s support multitasking

as my assumption ,OS freeze the application but still allow application to update the hub
http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/17/windows-phone-7-series-multitasking-the-real-deal/
We've definitely learned a ton about Windows Phone 7 Series here at MIX, but getting the full picture on multitasking has been difficult, since the OS isn't ready, no one has final hardware, and the emulator seems to behave differently than actual devices and Microsoft's descriptions. So let's set the record straight on multitasking: it's not going to happen, at least not in the traditional way. Not only have we directly confirmed this with Microsoft executives several times, but the developer sessions here are totally clear on the matter -- you don't tell 1000+ devs that they should expect their apps to be killed whenever the user switches away from them if you don't mean it. Now, that's not to say that the OS can't do multitasking: first-party apps like the Zune player and IE can run in the background, and third-party apps are actually left running in a suspended state (Microsoft calls it "dehydrated") as long as the system doesn't need any additional resources. If the user cycles back to an app, it's resumed ("rehydrated") and life continues merrily along, but if the user opens other apps and the system needs additional resources, the app is killed without any indication or remorse.
If that sounds familiar, it's because it's basically a single-tasking riff on Android and Windows Mobile 6, both of which also purport to intelligently manage multiple running applications like this, and both of which usually find themselves greatly improved with manual task managers. We'll have to see if Windows Phone 7 Series can do a better job once it ships -- we have a feeling it will -- and later down the line we'll see if Microsoft decides to extend multitasking to third-party apps. But for now, just know that you're not going to be running Pandora in the background while you do other tasks on a 7 Series device -- it is a question we have specifically asked, and the answer, unfortunately, is no.

so it doesn't support multitasking... at least not in a tradition sense.
but i guess this isn't too bad.. i mean, as long as i can start writing an email and then go online and then come right back to my cursor... or play a game, hit pause, send a text, and then come right back to pause screen.
hopefully i can connect to a site, switch to text... while i'm writing a text, wait for the webpage to load, and come back.
anyway, i'm pretty sure if MS can't compete w/ the ipod, MS can't compete w/ the iphone.

They have actually did a demo on loading websites in the background while doing other stuff so that will be possible.

why is it so hard to update my Yomomedia feeds while sending a text message?
It's plain dumb. RAM is made for a reason.

Now, that's not to say that the OS can't do multitasking: first-party apps like the Zune player and IE can run in the background...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thats nice for the Zune-Player and the IE, but what if I want to use a different player or browser?
rorytmeadows said:
why is it so hard to update my Yomomedia feeds while sending a text message?
It's plain dumb. RAM is made for a reason.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
WORD! Its really funny thoug how all those people here defending the decision not to include MT by asking what application really needs it. My opinion, every app that loads longer than 1 second, because that is how fast I activate a minimized application right now!
And on a sidenote, notebooks had limited amounts of ram and processing power combined with terrible running times for decades, and no fool ever came up with the idea of disabling MT to solve those problems...

Both the stock iPhone and WPS7 supports multitasking only for their own applications, so you will be able to play music in the background, browse the net with either the stock browser or third party browser. In the case of stock iPhone, a third party application called Nike can also run in the background but that's a rare exception Apple has made.
To be able to run third party applications in the background, the jailbreaking community gives us tweaks such as Backgrounder, Kirikae, Circuituous, Multiflow.
I think something similar might happen to WPS7. Some technical gurus either from the XDA community or other places might do something similar and jailbreak and introduce background processing capability for third party applications.

rorytmeadows said:
why is it so hard to update my Yomomedia feeds while sending a text message?
It's plain dumb. RAM is made for a reason.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Why?
OS still allows application keep running,OS just stops the UI rendering ,stops the playing music

eaglesteve said:
Both the stock iPhone and WPS7 supports multitasking only for their own applications, so you will be able to play music in the background, browse the net with either the stock browser or third party browser. In the case of stock iPhone, a third party application called Nike can also run in the background but that's a rare exception Apple has made.
To be able to run third party applications in the background, the jailbreaking community gives us tweaks such as Backgrounder, Kirikae, Circuituous, Multiflow.
I think something similar might happen to WPS7. Some technical gurus either from the XDA community or other places might do something similar and jailbreak and introduce background processing capability for third party applications.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It is patently absurd that Microsoft, of all companies, would enforce such a limitation. What about applications that you want to respond to the Accelerometer? Light sensor? Any other system events built into the OS/tool-kit? They have written all sorts of cool stuff like the Reactive Extensions (which isn't just for mobile) - how is this supposed to work if it doesn't support multitasking? How is my app supposed to respond to environmental events if it isn't freaking running?!

bjhill2112 said:
How is my app supposed to respond to environmental events if it isn't freaking running?!
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Click to collapse
Well, to be fair, MS has a way for it in WM, it's called persistent notifications, which works in many (not all) cases. It doesn't seem to be included in WP7 though, I don't see any traces of SNAPI.

vangrieg said:
Well, to be fair, MS has a way for it in WM, it's called persistent notifications, which works in many (not all) cases. It doesn't seem to be included in WP7 though, I don't see any traces of SNAPI.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I've been poking around in the tool kit and I can't find anything either.

MS says new multi-task in wm 7 is more like as iphone's
some apps will suspenses, then system will shut them automatically to clean up system resources

bestfan said:
MS says new multi-task in wm 7 is more like as iphone's
some apps will suspenses, then system will shut them automatically to clean up system resources
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No ,it is different, on wp7s, while apps suspense to background ,apps still allow update the hubs and tiles and multi apps can be suspended to background

File Explorer, Multitasking, and Using WP7 As A USB Device?

These are the 3 important things on my list about Windows Phone 7. I know initially these wont be available but i remember reading a while back that the emulator or something got hacked by someone here and revealed a file explorer in windows phone 7
is that any indication that there will be a means of exploring the contents of the device like we currently have on winmo?
also how feasible would it be for them to allow multitasking for apps? is that something impossible for this platform or could they actually do this with a update?
and whats the word on using the device as a usb drive like most phones out there can currently do?

deadwrong03 said:
These are the 3 important things on my list about Windows Phone 7. I know initially these wont be available but i remember reading a while back that the emulator or something got hacked by someone here and revealed a file explorer in windows phone 7
is that any indication that there will be a means of exploring the contents of the device like we currently have on winmo?
also how feasible would it be for them to allow multitasking for apps? is that something impossible for this platform or could they actually do this with a update?
and whats the word on using the device as a usb drive like most phones out there can currently do?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well you probably didn't follow the WP7 news....
Anyway at launch NONE of the above are available.

deadwrong03 said:
the emulator or something got hacked by someone here and revealed a file explorer in windows phone 7
is that any indication that there will be a means of exploring the contents of the device like we currently have on winmo?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The file explorer in the emulator didn't really work, but was present. It won't be available in the retail version and there will be no file system access for users.
deadwrong03 said:
also how feasible would it be for them to allow multitasking for apps? is that something impossible for this platform or could they actually do this with a update?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Multitasking will likely be added in a future update, although I would bet that this will be some iPhone-style limited multitasking where programs won't actually run in background but rather use OS services to do what needs to be done while they're not in focus. That multitasking is needed was confirmed by MS. How it will be implemented is not known, I'm guessing here.
deadwrong03 said:
and whats the word on using the device as a usb drive like most phones out there can currently do?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This won't be available. After all, it's not really useful without file system access.
So in these areas WP7 is very similar to the iPhone. To get this features, WP7 devices will need to be jailbroken (or whatever the process will be called).

Like stated above. Many if not all the things you are looking for may be missing on launch. But future updates may change this. Also don't doubt the good people at XDA-Devs not to find some sort of way around getting USB Mass Storage access as well as a File Explorer. Never Say "Never" around this place.

what about downloading through the web browser? like downloading pictures or like i do with my tp2 download music and albums will any downloading be possible at all thru the browser? since theres no file explorer now im guessing not

IM0001 said:
Also don't doubt the good people at XDA-Devs not to find some sort of way around getting USB Mass Storage access as well as a File Explorer. Never Say "Never" around this place.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm pretty sure we will get a USB Mass Storage mod, I just hope it isn't a long process like on the iphone.

deadwrong03 said:
what about downloading through the web browser? like downloading pictures or like i do with my tp2 download music and albums will any downloading be possible at all thru the browser?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That is possible for file types supported by the OS - images, office documents. All other file types will be downloadable via webbrowser controls within third-party applications to their isolated storage areas.

vangrieg said:
Multitasking will likely be added in a future update, although I would bet that this will be some iPhone-style limited multitasking where programs won't actually run in background but rather use OS services to do what needs to be done while they're not in focus. That multitasking is needed was confirmed by MS. How it will be implemented is not known, I'm guessing here.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think some kinds of multitasking are available. Read this post: bolingconsulting[dot]com/blog/?p=46

Azatey said:
I think some kinds of multitasking are available. Read this post: bolingconsulting[dot]com/blog/?p=46
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There is first party multitasking for some apps e.g. Zune. No third party multitasking e.g. no Pandora.
-R

sketchy9 said:
There is first party multitasking for some apps e.g. Zune. No third party multitasking e.g. no Pandora.
-R
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
but there is a iPhone esque multi-tasking. They call it tombstoning. The app gets put into a saved state when you switch apps, and when you hit the back button it gets brought back up as if you never left, but it is not running in the background, just saved. But if you go to the home/star menu and start the same app it gets started as if you never had it in the tombstone state.

the toombstoning sounds awefull for anything that uses bluetooth or gps....

Tombstoning is NOT multitasking and it is NOT an alternative.

crow26 said:
Tombstoning is NOT multitasking and it is NOT an alternative.
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in most cases it is the same as multi tasking with the exception of music other than zune or gps / bluetooth however i do not see a need for a gps app to be running when its not in the foreground. but any other will act the same as it would on a phone with multi tasking. i would be intrested in you posting your example that you think wp7 cant do (with the exception of what is listed above).

It's not at all the same, never. Completely different thing that has nothing to do with multitasking.

crow26 said:
It's not at all the same, never. Completely different thing that has nothing to do with multitasking.
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you keep making the claim but have yet to give an example... wp7 current way of "multi task" vs andriod "multi task"
WP7:
1. App is running in the forderground
2. App is frozen in the RAM and only some threads are still running
3. App is frozen in the Flash memory and only some threads are still running
4. App is not running
Andriod
1. App is running in the foreground
2. App is frozen in the RAM and only some threads are still running
3. Just a portion of an app is running in the background as a service, the main app is deflated and residing in memory, or has been killed, leaving only the service.
4. App is not running, but is still in Memory in a deflated state until RAM runs out.
5. App is killed and not residing in memory. It may leave call to the OS to revive it periodically when conditions are met.
and here are a few examples people have explained how they use "multi task"
listen to my music
surf on the Internet,
check some addresses with Google Maps.
Also I use the camera.- wp7 possable
listening to music
open my twitter program
open a link from one of the twits
pause twitting to write a SMS - wp7 possable
The fact is there are very few areas where we do need "real multitasking", they are music+whatever and navigation+receiving a call/email. And of these, it is only navigation that seem not to be working as we all expect in first release of WP7 at least. Music, mail, phone are 1. party apps, and those will run in background when needed.
What people often think about when they say; "But I need multitasking"...they often just think about that they want to work in one app, then jump to another app, and then back to the first and continue where they left off...and that is something that is handeled by saving and loading of state. For us users...it will be as it was running in the background.
And then there are multitasking-scenario where you want for example to get notified when there is a new Twitter that mentions you, or when you airplane is delayed, and so forth...and that is also possible in WP7, if the developers use PushNotifications.
for now this is what most people really use as far as "multi task" goes...

Honestly, WM 6/6.5 style multitasking would be instant death for WP7. People who are computer-retarded (the majority of people) wouldn't be able to use it properly. When the memory fills up, the phone simply "stops working" for them and it's time to get an iPhone.
This new system makes much more sense... yes, it's not the same, but it will work just fine in the long run.

Perfect example I use my phone for navigation. I'm driving and my friend wants to surf the net while I drive. My friend takes my phone and starts browsing the net. Navigation is still running in the background giving me voice guided directions. Can WP7 do this?
What about surf the net while on a skype call?
What about Pandora while playing a game?

vetvito said:
Perfect example I use my phone for navigation. I'm driving and my friend wants to surf the net while I drive. My friend takes my phone and starts browsing the net. Navigation is still running in the background giving me voice guided directions. Can WP7 do this?
What about surf the net while on a skype call?
What about Pandora while playing a game?
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as mentioned above in many post "with the exception of navigation" and not all people use pandora zune will do for current. and yes you are what most consider to be a more "advance user" however this is not the norm as most people use one app at a time.. so although its not giving you all that you are looking for at the current it will fufill 95% of the users and they way they use apps. and the most important thing is it will run alot smoother and better than android, wm 6.5, 6.1, rim... i will take this over a few things not being able to run in the background anyday!!!

"Tombstoning" is nothing. Every OS can do that.
Multitasking means running applications in the background. On WP7, nothing is running at all = NO MULTITASKING.
= no navigation in the background
= no internet radio in the background
= no downloads in the background
= no skype in the backround
= no server in the background
= ...
Is that so hard to understand?! Are you somehow retarded or what's wrong with you?

Crow26, why do you have to be rude? Politeness never hurt anyone.
After I read the review on WM7 on GSMArena, I finally made up my mind: I will never downgrade to WM7, because it's what it actually is: a downgrade.
I use navigation a lot and, obviously, I receive calls while I drive. Is my HD2 the last phone with which I can do that? Is this the end of the line?
WM7 feels like another one of those OS for people who know nothing about computers (the majority). It is such a downgrade from WM6.5 in that sense...

Windows Phone 7 and multitasking

This is a clarification thread, and I will not, unlike my other attempt, be fooled into a pissing contest. There just seems to be a lot of misunderstanding when it comes to "multitasking" on Windows Phone 7, and I will try to clarify a little bit.
Problem: You're in a program, start another one, and then start the original again - and your data is gone, or if it's a game you have to start from the beginning.
Answer: This has nothing to do with multitasking, but something called tombstoning. The developers has to take into account what to do when a program is exited by starting another program, and most seem to just ignore it. That is when you lose your data or have to start the game from scratch
Problem: "Windows Phone doesn't multitask", "When will we get multitasking" etc
Answer: Windows Phone can multitask just fine. So can the programs running on Windows Phone. What most people refer to when asking these questions is really either the question above, or if developers will be allowed to run programs in the background. Multitasking is being able to more than one thing at the time, and the most simple test to see if your phone supports it or not is to see if you can receive phone calls or listen to music while you're checking mail. So - your phone can both multitask and run applications in the background (which is called scheduling, actually, as multitasking doesn't necessarily mean running a program that isn't in the foreground - uploading a picture to your sky drive while letting you browse the other pictures is typical multitasking).
Problem: "When will MS let us run programs in the background?"
Answer: There are both pros and cons to letting developers do this. A lot of developers aren't that good when it comes to using resources sensibly while in the background, and a lot of programs simply doesn't *need* to run in the background. If you're writing notes and want them back when you return, that's tombstoning. Playing a game? Well, you certainly don't want it to actually run in the background as you'll be dead when you return. Still tombstoning. One of the few applications is if you're listening to music (videos don't cound, because it doesn't make sense playing the video when you cannot watch it) or download larger amounts of data. The problem is that, if it's not done correctly, this can negatively impact performance (do you really want your game to stutter or have to wait two minutes for mail to open??), it can drain your battery, and it can even help distribute viruses. If MS wants to open this to developers, they need to have special testing procedures before they allow it. Also, misbehaving background apps will give most people a negative image of MS, which is apparent in all the threads dissing MS for not allowing "multitasking" because developers don't save data when exiting the application.
So, here's a short run-down of terms that are interesting in today's computer landscape:
* Multitasking: Being able to do more than one job at a time. Multitasking really just divides the processor time (available time to use the processor) and gives slices to different jobs.
* Multithreading: Being able to divide tasks into their own threads, thus allowing the use of more cores/processors. A multitasking, single threaded OS can only use one processor (simplification of the truth - if you know why it's a simplification, you don't need the full story. If you don't, it will only confuse you), while a multitasking, multithreaded OS can use more. Most programs, even for regular computers don't use multithreading, as it's a pain in the O to handle, but operating systems do. That's why, on a PC, Counter Strike will only use one of the cores on your brand new gaming rig with 8 cores, but all the cores will be active.
* Background scheduling: How the OS can let applications run in the background, usually by giving it less processor time (most often just free cycles) and thus letting it complete a time consuming process without making the system too slow to use. A foreground application will usually get more processor time than if it was running in the background.
I hope this clears it up, and helps people to understand what the different terms are and when to use it.
To sum up:
* Multitasking is available. There's no question about it. Windows Phone multitasks applications, and applications can multitask internally.
* Background scheduling is available, but is not an open API for developers. This has both positive and negative implications, depending on application
* A lot of developers are pretty bad when it comes to tombstoning.

Great post. There is nothing to be added. Sadly most ppl won't read the whole think or simply continue complaining.
I'm happy with the OS as it is, because I don't want all those crappy apps to suck my battery and fool with my CPU cycles.
In future real sceduling may be a capability of apps which need spezial certification. But I'm strictly against open APIs for that!

It has nothing to do with developers. If an OS is well written it will handle multitasking just fine, it's a nice excuse but a lame one. My old blackberry with a 400mhz processor and displays graphic icons can multi-task. Windows phone 7 with a 1ghz processor and is primarily text based won't allow it.
The keyword here is won't. We all know it's capable of doing it so why won't MS allow it? This is the reason why many major instant message apps are not available for this platform. What's the point of having an instant messager if it gets tombstoned when you switch screens? Big usability hole here.

the_Crispy said:
Great post. There is nothing to be added. Sadly most ppl won't read the whole think or simply continue complaining.
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Thanks
See the post below yours for confirmation that people won't read, but will gladly complain

I see what you mean and for the most part you got all the definitions correct, but you also have to see how WP7 handles apps and the pros and cons on the end-user.
WP7 actually just saves the state of the app when navigated away from, and does not actually enable you to RUN two apps at once so developers have to be really tricky with how they incorporate this into the OS. The pros are saving battery and not waste resources, the cons are that you cannot actually utilize the best parts of multi-tasking.
Do you want you game "running" in the background so you die? No, but the developer should know that and code the app appropriately. Do you want to be able to stream music in the background while checking emails or texting or tweeting? Of course. Not possible under the current version of WP7. How about playing a game/email/text while driving and having turn-by-turn navigation on? Nope. Developers might be lazy at times, but they're not usually idiots.
There's no question that the OS has the native ability to do so, no one ever argued that point. The beef is that MS has locked their OS down so they only allow Zune to do it. Well some of us don't like Zune or want to multi-task other apps too.
But MS wants to play it safe and see how multi-tasking is working out for Google and Apple before they actually allow it for any 3rd party apps, meanwhile the end-user suffers and the salesguy at the t-mobile store doesn't even show you an HD7 because you "can only do one thing at a time." MS needs to wake the hell up and allow 3rd party TRUE multi-tasking for 3rd party apps. It actually made some sense to not allow it for the initial release, it could have been a nightmare with an early OS and not that many apps anyways, developers had to get fancy and had to stay smart and honest, or their app would be killed with the quickness.
But it is time to free the OS to do some core things that it is really lacking:
1) True Multitasking
2) Copy and Paste
3) HTML5 and Flash support in IE
4) Third party web browsers
5) full direct camera access to apps
6) separate audio levels for media, ringtones, alarm (android really nailed this one)
of course other bugs and stuff, but these are the main issues for me. I don't blame MS for how they handled tombstoning and multi-tasking initially, but it's time (with efficiency) to catch up with the rest of the herd.

tiwas said:
and I will not, unlike my other attempt, be fooled into a pissing contest.
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pillsburydoughman said:
It has nothing to do with developers. If an OS is well written it will handle multitasking just fine, it's a nice excuse but a lame one. My old blackberry with a 400mhz processor and displays graphic icons can multi-task. Windows phone 7 with a 1ghz processor and is primarily text based won't allow it.
The keyword here is won't. We all know it's capable of doing it so why won't MS allow it? This is the reason why many major instant message apps are not available for this platform. What's the point of having an instant messager if it gets tombstoned when you switch screens? Big usability hole here.
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tiwas said:
Thanks
See the post below yours for confirmation that people won't read, but will gladly complain
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I'm not going to get into any ranting or raving or anything on this one, but please don't bash everyone who does not agree with you in this thread or claim they don't read.
The guy had a legitimate post about tombstoning an instant messenger and I have pointed out other times where MS drops the ball on this mulit-tasking issue.
Your OP is a good post and helps clear up some things, but you have to understand that there are real concerns with the OS not allowing 3rd party multi-tasking and just flaming anyone who does not think that this is the best way for the OS to operate.

It wasn't bashing. I was simply pointing out that he hadn't read the whole thing, as he, like you, didn't really understand the concept of multitasking.
Anyway, I'm not going to start arguing with you again.

pillsburydoughman said:
It has nothing to do with developers. If an OS is well written it will handle multitasking just fine, it's a nice excuse but a lame one. My old blackberry with a 400mhz processor and displays graphic icons can multi-task. Windows phone 7 with a 1ghz processor and is primarily text based won't allow it.
The keyword here is won't. We all know it's capable of doing it so why won't MS allow it? This is the reason why many major instant message apps are not available for this platform. What's the point of having an instant messager if it gets tombstoned when you switch screens? Big usability hole here.
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WP7 definitely has the capbility of multi tasking, or you won't be playing music while using IE. MS limited the multi tasking for 3rd party apps.
Your old phone or android phone can do multitanking without any system limit. As I know it's free for Android application to create background services. However it causes significant lag and battery drain. My captivate lose 4% power per hour on standby and I cannot even locate which app is causing such battery drain.
MS learned from apple that it's more important to keep the device running smooth than to let apps mess the phone up.

Who cares what you call it. People want to have a messenger or non zune music player in the background while they do other things and be able to QUICKLY respond to it. BASICALLY most people want what apple calls multitasking/fast app switching. Only certain things allowed and a proper save state when when leaving the app. It works great on the iPhone and i dont care what people say its simple and effective.

can WP7 multitask?

tiwas said:
It wasn't bashing. I was simply pointing out that he hadn't read the whole thing, as he, like you, didn't really understand the concept of multitasking.
Anyway, I'm not going to start arguing with you again.
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well I think we both understand the concept of multi-tasking, just disagree with you on the wiseness of not allowing third party apps to be able to do so, someone disagreeing with you isn't the same thing as not understanding something; multi-tasking is actually a pretty easy concept to understand.
I don't want to argue with you again either, I just also don't want readers of this thread to be misinformed and to get all viewpoints regarding WP7's lack of multi-tasking support and then they can decide if they agree or not, but it doesn't mean that the subject is not understood.
I have no desire to start any beef on this thread, just keep in mind that when you start a thread you open a discussion open to disagreements, these don't mean that people don't read or don't understand necessarily. Don't be afraid to be wrong, it happens to everyone. We're all here to get the most out of our devices anyways.

So, you are shazaming a song on the radio, and get a phone call or a txt - will wp7 tombstone the live radio for you too?

Anthonok said:
Who cares what you call it. People want to have a messenger or non zune music player in the background while they do other things and be able to QUICKLY respond to it. BASICALLY most people want what apple calls multitasking/fast app switching. Only certain things allowed and a proper save state when when leaving the app. It works great on the iPhone and i dont care what people say its simple and effective.
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Apple add this feature not until their 4th generation system
Let's see what the mango update will give us.

amtrakcn said:
Apple add this feature not until their 4th generation system
Let's see what the mango update will give us.
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what so they will add this in the 9 generation?(if you count 6.1 and 6.5)
Wow

vetvito said:
what so they will add this in the 9 generation?(if you count 6.1 and 6.5)
Wow
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It's named WP7 but it's ACTUALLY WP1.
WM is designed to be a lite version of desktop windows with phone features
That's why it was powerful while hurting user experience

vetvito said:
can WP7 multitask?
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You should read my full post. It's explained
I am absolutely sure big companies will be allowed to run in the background, and it's probably just a question about time before we get MSN Messenger running properly in the background.
There are other uses, like streaming music, but as for the suggestions of running GPS software with turn by turn instructions (you shouldn't play games or do anything with your phone while driving!) and having a game active in the background without letting your character die (cool! Let's spin our wheels! We're not going anywhere, but we sure are spending gas! ) are plain silly...
Ok, on my list of programs that will benefit from actually running in the background, I can only think of two now, but please help me put more on the list:
* Music streaming
* Messaging

vetvito said:
can WP7 multitask?
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nothing other than Zune right now
tiwas said:
but as for the suggestions of running GPS software with turn by turn instructions (you shouldn't play games or do anything with your phone while driving!) and having a game active in the background without letting your character die (cool! Let's spin our wheels! We're not going anywhere, but we sure are spending gas! ) are plain silly...
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well GPS would nice since sometimes you're the passenger and you still want turn by turn while gaming or emailing, so it needs to be supported in the mango update too.

Hi fellow XDA lovers
I just want to remind you all that we don't want a flame war here so keep it on topic please.

amtrakcn said:
Apple add this feature not until their 4th generation system
Let's see what the mango update will give us.
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Yes it took them an extremely long time because apple is stubborn (or should i say Steve Jobs) and it is disappointing that Microsoft chose to pull an apple with WP7. But at least apple updated the iPhone....

lqaddict said:
So, you are shazaming a song on the radio, and get a phone call or a txt - will wp7 tombstone the live radio for you too?
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I should probably be able to run in the background if you get a call. I can play games while on the phone, but it leaves a nasty orange block on the top of the screen to notify you that your on the phone. As far txt messaging go, yea that's a bummer. I just click the message when it comes up, respond, then click back to go to the game I was playing. Just hope that game saved your previous state.