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Earlier this week we told you guys that Windows Mobile 6.5 was going to stick around after Windows Phone 7 hits the masses. It would even take on a new name — Windows Phone Classic. With everyone sticking around and playing nice at this party, you’d think that maybe current WinMo 6.5 handsets might get a little Windows Phone 7 love. Sorry to burst your bubble.
Microsoft Mobile Communications Business Director Aaron Woodman told CNET Asia, “I don’t know if any Windows Mobile 6.5 device today meets those specifications.” It sounds like your average Microsoft move: if you want the new software, you’ll also have to get new hardware because your old junk just isn’t gonna cut it, baby.
The new handsets are getting primo parts such as Qualcomm’s 1GHz Snapdragon processor (no Tegra, sorry). WinPho 7, being a fresh OS and more intensive than its predecessors, will undoubtedly need hardware resources that most 6.5 devices just don’t have, but don’t fret. Unlike everyone staying on Windows XP when Vista came out, upgrading to WinPho 7 out of WinMo 6.5 is definitely a move in the right direction. WinMo 6.5 is going to stick around for enterprise and developing countries, so unless you’re tied to the OS for those reasons, I’m sure you wouldn’t mind ditching your current 6.5 handset for a shiny new WinPho 7 device when it comes out.
Q&A: Microsoft on Windows Phone 7 Series
CNET Asia
BARCELONA--You didn't hear? Microsoft has at long last announced the Windows Phone 7 Series at Mobile World Congress. Forget whatever impressions you have of the current Windows Mobile operating system as the new 7 Series is unlike anything we've seen. The user interface has been completely reworked to feature live tiles, panoramic screens and enhanced gaming and music experiences. Microsoft knew it had to deliver something with pow at the annual mobile tradeshow, and it did deliver. While the first devices aren't expected until the year-end holiday season, there's still a lot to know about the new software.
The new Windows Phone 7 Series interface looks nothing like its predecessors'.
We sat down with the director of Mobile Communications Business, Aaron Woodman, the general manager for Asia in the Mobile Communications Business, Natasha Kwan, and the head of Mobile Services, Manish Ladha, to discuss everything, from the software to hardware and services.
Windows Phone 7 Series
What is the Windows Phone 7 Series and is there a particular significance with the number 7 or the new naming convention? Do you think the new name will confuse users?
Woodman: There were four big pieces of news yesterday [Monday]. The biggest was Windows Phone 7 Series and all the changes in the product around smart designs, integrated experiences and the Windows Phone hubs. The second was we brought Xbox Live and Zune to Windows Phone for the first time and we will take that internationally. The third was about a specific set of partners, mobile operators and OEMs that have committed to be early launch partners. The last piece of news was on the Q4 holiday time frame launch in time for the seasonal push.
We started changing the brand strategy with Windows Mobile (WM) 6.5. We announced the new brand as Windows Phone and the OS will remain consistent in terms of naming structure, which is Windows Mobile 6.5. That actually was significant for us because it was really the first time we wanted to market software directly to consumers. So we started Windows Phone and we really shipped two products--MyPhone and Windows Marketplace--which helped us start to have a direct relationship with the customer. That was a big step because prior to that, we simply shipped the operating system, while the OEMs and mobile operators had a relationship with the customer. So WM6.5 was a very small incremental step to start that process.
Windows Phone 7 Series is us front center trying to interact with the customers to solve their needs and ultimately taking accountability. I don't think it's confusing. I think it's a change. There are a lot of changes and this is just one of many. In terms of 7, there is no particular significance around 7. There is particular emphasis on Series knowing that we're going to have a selection of phones running a single version of the product.
What took Microsoft so long to publicly announce Windows Phone 7 Series?
Aaron Woodman: I don't know whether I would say it took us so long to announce it. We started to see a pretty significant change in the market place three or four years ago and that was driven by three things. The first was customer expectations. Customers have changed pretty dramatically over the last few years. If you looked at the prices of phones and data plans in the late 1990s and early 2000s, it was the businesses that could afford those. There wasn't a lot of end-consumers out there and usage of the product.
The second was technology--what was fundamentally possible on the device and at what price points. We started to see processors, chipsets and price points of data plans come down pretty dramatically. The third was competition. There are two types of competitors. Vertical competitors are people who have the ability to achieve quality entirely because they have the software and can achieve economies of scale to drive down component prices. And also people integrating data.
These three things came together at a time which brought a lot of emphasis on how we had to change to be competitive. That change started over two years ago with a shift in leadership. The result was a strategy behind the 7 Series. There are not a lot of companies that have the ability to step back from what I would argue was a successful strategy in the mobile phone space. Today, we still sell a ton of phones.
So I don't feel late with it. I always wished I had more innovations sooner, but I think we definitely stepped back, took our time and were willing to make some pretty dramatic changes.
Dramatic it is, since the interface is unlike anything we've seen before. But how do you intend to keep up with the competition since the first devices on the new OS aren't expected until Q4 2010?
Woodman: I think we have a very unique perspective on the business. What we've seen is that most of our competition focuses on just bringing applications to the forefront. They use a very classic design language that we pioneered with a lot of our work on the desktop. Our perspective puts us into a different place because we focus much more on the customer end of the tasks and the ability to complete what you want to do. We fully expect apps to participate in that new design language. That perspective, I would argue, is quite unique to the marketplace today, and that's what results in such a different look and feel of the product. And then we brought some differentiation that I would argue most phone or phone software providers simply don't have. Xbox Live is a social game backbone with a community of over 23 million. That's not something Nokia and Apple has. They need to have a partner to do that and that makes it more difficult to do deep integration.
I would also argue that the search engine and data behind that allows us to do a very unique implementation of things like maps, search and results. If you look at the competition, there is only one provider which has that same product and that's Google. If you look at the music space, we have the PC desktop software and the ability to think about the rich integration between the PC and the phone, and the only one that kind of does that today is Apple. If you start to add these pieces together, you can identify unique competitors like MyPhone, MobileMe and Ovi. As a whole , there are very few people who have these assets. What I can say about our competitors is that they are very respectful and have great products, but I feel very good about my ability to differentiate both in the short and long term.
Why would anyone want to buy a 7 Series device over an iPhone, Android, Nokia or a BlackBerry?
Woodman: I think there are two reasons, and probably the biggest reason is that people will be drawn to the design. I really do think that's the case when you start focusing on things like the task rather than the applications. I think people will be drawn to the fact that they are able to see their information quickly, easily and in a readable fashion. Also, we thought about the design in terms of the motion and transitions where you see things fly in and out in a very dynamic fashion.
The second thing people will be drawn to is the idea of taking the most common tasks and bringing them together. People are a great example where today you really get fragmented in the people experience. And we start to see some people do some very, very lightweight integration of social networking. We think we are going to deliver that in a way that is going to be quite unique.
What operating system does Windows Phone 7 Series run on? Is there a name for it?
Woodman: There's product brand and product line. The brand is Windows Phone and Windows Phone 7 Series is the product line. The OS will be Windows Phone OS 7.
Are the codes different from the current CE codes?
Woodman: Yes, all the software was revisited when we built Windows Phone 7 Series. Nobody felt like an incremental change was going to get us to a point where we felt we would be competitive over the next several years. Across the board, I don't think anyone felt restrained to stay inside our current development model. We'll come back again and talk about that at MIX (a Microsoft Web design/development event) in March.
How can manufacturers differentiate their products?
Aaron Woodman: You'll see mobile operators and OEMs bring differentiation into the software experience through unique access to some tools. That said, you won't see any user experience on top of Windows Phone 7 Series. You won't see any skinning and those sort of things. There is so much fragmentation where the ecosystem is kind of butting heads against the same innovation. You won't see any opportunity for any OEM or third-party app developer to take over the user experience.
Hardware
What has Microsoft done since the acquisition of Danger? Are there any developments on that front and what are the company's plans for Danger?
Woodman: What I will tell you is that the number one thing we got from Danger is really about people and their expertise in the mobile phone space. You'll see a lot of benefits here as we start to think about how to structure hardware and work with hardware partners.
Can you give a straight answer on whether Microsoft will release a consumer phone line?
Woodman: Just answer this straight? [Exasperated laughter] The answer is, I don't really know. And the reason I don't know is we have mobile as a strategy as a company and I will tell you the company is not aggressive in that marketplace. If we felt like there was an opportunity to do something really compelling and different, we would do it. That said, Microsoft has a partner-driven model and we believe in the benefits of partnerships.
What are the hardware specifications Microsoft is laying out for OEMs?
Woodman: We will provide the OS primarily to software developers in March. Every 7 Series device will have a Qualcomm chip. It will be touch-based. There won't be any non-touch, but that's not saying there won't be any keyboard devices, so they will all be touch and capacitive. There is a single aspect ratio. It will have Wi-Fi and GPS and other services which we will talk about soon.
Can the users of the current Windows Mobile software upgrade to the new one when it comes out?
Woodman: I don't know if any Windows Mobile 6.5 device today meets those specifications.
How many 7 Series devices can users expect this year?
Woodman: A billion! No, I don't know. You saw the announcement of the OEMs and it's really up to them in terms of how many devices they release in the different markets.
Windows Mobile 6.x
What happens now to Windows Mobile 6.5, or even 6.5.3? Are you going to completely phase out the current WinMo or will it continue with a different proposition?
Woodman: We don't have a specific timeline for Windows Mobile 6.5. It still has a lot of demand and value for both OEMs and customers today. The reality is that demand will determine the lifespan of Windows Mobile 6.5. So as long as OEMs and customers find value there, we'll continue to support and sell the product.
Are there going to be new devices coming out this year?
Kwan: Yes. When we announced Windows Mobile 6.5 in October last year, we said we will continue to have updates. WM6.5.3 is an update in terms of added feature functionality. In the WM6 platform, there were a lot of legacy applications that were written with the stylus in mind. So we have the magnifier to enhance the touch experience for these apps. We also anticipate 14 new devices out in Asia in the next six months.
Are the target user groups of Windows Mobile 6.5, 6.5.3 and Windows Phone 7 Series different?
Kwan: The target audience is similar. Internally, we call it the life maximizer, but that's really about the 23-35 age group. We are talking about a group of people who are actually quite settled in what they do. They are confident people. They have a lot of priorities to juggle at work and in personal lives. Yet, they also want their phone to be able to help them obtain information to make their decision.
With Windows Phone 7 Series, we have built the OS from the ground up. We really want to take a lot of accountability in the user experience. We want to ensure that we build greater quality and consistency with the phone and have an integrated experience. For WM6.5, it is going to be the platform where we allow OEM partners to continue to have their unique user interfaces. It is also a platform today where a lot of enterprise business apps are being built. More and more, we are seeing that the phone is critical for a lot of these enterprise apps. That's where WM6.5 continues to hold a lot of strength in a managed enterprise environment.
Services
Will the entire suite of Live services be available on Windows Phone 7 Series?
Ladha: We will continue to provide the existing experience even as we go into the 7 Series. It's not really classified as Windows Live, but within the People Hub, there will be updates coming from Windows Live or Facebook. Essentially, it's getting all your communication in one place.
Will there be Live services specific to 7 Series?
Ladha: Xbox Live and Zune are new to Windows Phone 7 Series. On WM6.5, you have Marketplace and MyPhone, and that will continue on for the 7 Series.
...
...
What kind of gaming experience can users look forward to on the 7 Series devices? And what do developers have to look out for?
Ladha: That's still evolving and we will be discussing that in the next conference. You can see your avatars on your Windows Phones. You will get the same experience as on the Xbox, but this question of which games and to what extent is still being defined.
Assuming I have an Xbox and some games, do I have to repurchase the games to play on the handset?
Ladha: The actual mechanics in terms of which games and the payment process will be disclosed at a later stage.
Which version of the IE browser is it?
Ladha: The IE browser on the 7 Series is not really IE7 or IE8 from the PC but is built specifically for the mobile device. Previously, on WM6.5, we had Pocket IE, so it's an evolution of that. But it also has a lot of elements from the IE7 and IE8 in terms of the experience.
What is the name of this IE browser?
Ladha: We are not disclosing that right now.
It was said during the press conference that every 7 Series device is a Zune. Does that mean there won't be anymore dedicated Zune media players?
Ladha: We won't be commenting on that right now. Each and every 7 Series device will have the entire Zune experience in terms of playback and user interface currently available on the Zune HD.
What's the portfolio of Live services?
Ladha: Hotmail, Messenger and Photos are the more popular ones. There's also Spaces, but it's not that prominent. SkyDrive is a very popular service on the PC. However, we have a similar service which is called MyPhone.
It seems there's some duplication of services. Does Microsoft plan to combine them moving forward?
Ladha: I won't call it duplication of features. It's just that on the phone, there is no Windows Live SkyDrive for mobile. Instead, it's MyPhone. So it's ultimately performing the same actions.
my opinion
just microsoft's illusions for forcing people to buying new crapgadgets just for playing with new os.
Sina™ said:
my opinion
microsoft's illusions for forcing people to buying new crapgadgets just for playing with new os.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
and that will only work with the help of those users who wana change from iphone or symbian and move to winmo7. i doubt power users of android and winmo 6.5.x will prefer much of this new limited environment of winmo7.
with what they think they r providing will be gr8 for end user. i can assure that winmo7 is gonna fall like vista.
winmo 5-6.5.x has never been a sexy OS. it only worked cause most of its users know its power of customization. thats the reason winmo has been living for soo long. without that i doubt they'll b able to sustain much. i may be turned out wrong but this is what i strongly feel.
that's a good news.
microsoft will fail again & people will switch to android or iphone.
but what if xda devs fail to port android to wm 6.xx devices?
Sina™ said:
that's a good news.
microsoft will fail again & people will switch to android or iphone.
but what if xda devs fail to port android to wm 6.xx devices?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i doubt xda will fail at portin androind. sooner or later they will. like they have done for hd and tp2.
That's right, WP7 might not for power user ... if and only if it is quite limited in terms of customization / tweaking, just like iPhone.
But, it is early to tell that WP7 will fail.
Why?
Because power user is much more limited in terms of numbers compared to regular users.
And dont forget people JUMPING platform from iPhone, Nokia, BB, Android, others to WP7 ... just to try something new or they think it is more attractive.
You cannot rule that out.
Mr. Makk said:
and that will only work with the help of those users who wana change from iphone or symbian and move to winmo7. i doubt power users of android and winmo 6.5.x will prefer much of this new limited environment of winmo7.
with what they think they r providing will be gr8 for end user. i can assure that winmo7 is gonna fall like vista.
winmo 5-6.5.x has never been a sexy OS. it only worked cause most of its users know its power of customization. thats the reason winmo has been living for soo long. without that i doubt they'll b able to sustain much. i may be turned out wrong but this is what i strongly feel.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Buying a phone should not be enforcement.
I feel sorry for you if you were forced to buy a phone / gadget
There are choices as you said, iPhone, Android, Nokia, upcoming MeeGo or even Bada OS.
Sina™ said:
my opinion
just microsoft's illusions for forcing people to buying new crapgadgets just for playing with new os.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i dont want new gadgets every year, i want strong 3rd party support like iphone.
Hey Guys,
just starting a new threat to look for info and ideas about the next subject:
I am going to get a new phone in the next few months. Probable looking for an HTC with WP7.
I dont know if I will like it and I am wondering if these new phones could be flashed back to WM6.5.
Of course I would be willing to help with all kinds of WP7 ideas an tests, even though I am not a developper myself.
So, the statement for the new threat:
--Would it be possible/worhty to make 6.5 roms for WP7 hardware?--
Possible, sure. Likely, no. WM6.5 is, for most intents and purposes, dead. Highly unlikely that anyone puts in the time and effort needed to hack the bootloader, etc of specific devices in order to backport the old OS.
Sander101077 said:
Hey Guys,
just starting a new threat to look for info and ideas about the next subject:
I am going to get a new phone in the next few months. Probable looking for an HTC with WP7.
I dont know if I will like it and I am wondering if these new phones could be flashed back to WM6.5.
Of course I would be willing to help with all kinds of WP7 ideas an tests, even though I am not a developper myself.
So, the statement for the new threat:
--Would it be possible/worhty to make 6.5 roms for WP7 hardware?--
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think u can buy a 6.5phone now
If you're looking for backwards compatibility Windows Embedded Handheld 7 (based on WM6.x) is scheduled for the second half of 2011.
I've been following the conversations backstage and I don't think WM6.5 is dead at all. WP7 has a lot of shortcomings when it comes to business use. No copy/paste, less customization, etc. In fact, it is a dumb smartphone which is more geared for the iphone type consumer...those who would gladly trade endless customization and features for simplicity. Those who look at phones as fashion accessories and toys rather than something designed to get work done more efficiently. Sadly, the market for this is much much larger than the market for serious smart devices. Steve Jobs figured this out which is why the iphone is such a big hit, but most of us here have been looking at these folks going "wow, you can copy/paste now? Neat. I've been doing that for years!".
I had a list at one point which detailed all the things that WP7 does NOT do that 6.5 does and I can tell you that enterprise customers will not accept WP7 as a replacement to WM6.x. Many large companies out here are Microsoft partners with exchange servers, sharepoint, Office suitefor all employees and as a matter of IT support, they only support Windows Mobile so that their IT departments only have to manage MS products. If hey were to cut off SM6.x entirely while rolling out WP7, purchasing departments across the country would make a huge shift to blackberry. I'm certain that this is why RIM decided to go forward with plans for a new OS and why HP purchased Palm with their WebOS. They are both counting on MS doing this.
However, through conversations with various insiders at MS, it appears these fears are unfounded. Windows 6.5 is expected to continue being developed even into next year with possible future upgrades to the OS itself. WP7 will not support skins such as the HTC Sense interface, and because of the business users with business devices - particularly full qwerty devices like the Treo, Glisten, etc - they do expect to continue development.
I have heard rumors that there is actually a long development cycle planned for WM which involves the next iteration of Windows Mobile which will be renamed Windows 7 Professional. This would be in line with MS and their way of doing things and matches up nicely with Windows 7 and Windows Phone 7. I don't know how much of this part is true and how much is just rumors floating around backstage, but it makes a lot of sense.
kfreels said:
I've been following the conversations backstage and I don't think WM6.5 is dead at all.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
..not dead....dying. The next iteration of 'WM' is BASED on 6.5.x and then in 2011 a version (based on WP7) with XNA and silverlight support is due.
Here's some info on the next 'WM' release....~note...this is not a 'WP' release so doesn't fall under the 'Windows Phone' umbrella, it's a new version of Windows Mobile - Embedded and it;s backwards compatible.
http://www.fiercemobilecontent.com/press-releases/microsoft-outlines-commitment-future-enterprise-handheld-devices
..also mentioned here:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=6917106&posted=1#post6917106
Moving to General .
I will delete this post with in a week or two, so it doesn't clutter.
kfreels said:
WP7 has a lot of shortcomings when it comes to business use. No copy/paste.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
God, I'm so tired of hearing this. There will be copy&paste, they said it often enough...
I had a list at one point which detailed all the things that WP7 does NOT do that 6.5 does and I can tell you that enterprise customers will not accept WP7 as a replacement to WM6.x. Many large companies out here are Microsoft partners with exchange servers, sharepoint, Office suitefor all employees and as a matter of IT support, they only support Windows Mobile so that their IT departments only have to manage MS products.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
All the products you name (Office, Sharepoint, Exchange) are natively supported by WP7. Have you seen ANY WP7 demo video lately?
Skyfire 2.0 is the world’s first hybrid browser, using the best of the device’s native browser, and adding a cloud “booster engine” for extra features like video and social networking. It is our flagship go-forward product, as we’ve reported publicly for months, since our Android launch.
With that in mind, we are announcing that we will complete the phase out of our legacy v1.0 product on Windows Mobile and Symbian on December 31st, 2010 for remaining countries. This two-year old product used a “proxy browser” approach which is no longer our vision. It was a revolutionary product when introduced and offered for free, but the fast-moving mobile market has changed significantly since 2007, and as a small tech start-up, we need to keep innovating forward.
Our new 2.0 product is built for the next generation of smartphones and tablets with full support for html5, offline browsing, javascript, WebKit, and full-screen video. The 2.0 architecture is exponentially more data efficient as well, and better fits the technology roadmaps of our B2B customers (wireless carriers and handset makers).
This was a very difficult decision for us. We put our hearts and souls into the 1.0 product and greatly value the many Skyfire fans who used the product and provided us with invaluable feedback during this intensive research & development phase of our company. We experimented with ways to charge for the product (in certain international test markets) so that existing Windows Mobile and Symbian users could continue to use the service, but the payment mechanisms were very cumbersome and the piracy rates were so high on those OS platforms that we could not make it work. More importantly, we faced a decision point: If we were to begin charging money for a product, we had to commit to multiple years of support and enhancement of the product. It would not be the ethical thing to do to start down that path, given that we would not expect enough revenue to make that sustainable on the legacy 1.0 product, and we can no longer subsidize it. The right thing we decided was to focus on 2.0 and beyond.
We do expect to bring Skyfire 2.0 to additional platforms, and have begun discussions with some carriers and OEMs to decide which will be our next OS. Microsoft’s new Windows Phone 7 and Nokia’s MeeGo platform are both shaping up as platforms with a lot of potential and the recent launch of the new Blackberry OS 6 with a WebKit browser core makes for interesting potential for a future release of Skyfire 2.0. We value feedback from our users, so please let us know what platform you would like to see Skyfire on next and just as importantly let your wireless carrier know that you want Skyfire!
Thanks to all of our fans, new and old, for their support. We’re a small 35-person development shop, so all the enthusiasm for Skyfire has been gratifying for all of the engineers here in Mountain View.
Jeff Glueck, CEO
[EDIT]
I was entering rant mode but it's just not worth it... Still what was the point of creating yet another topic on this subject (and again in Soft Dev...)?
Yes I know but I didnt see that other thread that the other person had made. So I made this one instead.
Well, it was crap in the end anyway.
Nothing of value was lost.
source : http://www.dailytech.com/Report+Mic...D+to+Stay+Away+from+Android+/article21069.htm
"I'm gonna make him an offer he can't refuse."
Nokia ruffled more than a few feathers when it announced that it would be shacking up with Microsoft when it comes to smartphone operating systems. Feeling the heat from smartphone operating systems like Apple's iOS and Google's Android, Nokia is winding down its efforts with MeeGo and Symbian in order to embrace the nascent Windows Phone 7 (WP7) operating system.
Now, a new report from BusinessWeek suggests that Nokia was offered a sweet deal to go with Microsoft’s WP7 operating system over the rival Android OS. BusinessWeek says that Nokia will receive roughly $1B as a part of a 5-year deal with Microsoft.
Microsoft, of course, will also profit handsomely from its $1B investment if Nokia's WP7 offerings take off in the marketplace. Unlike with Google's freely available Android OS, Nokia will pay Microsoft a royalty fee for each WP7 handset that it sells.
“This gives Microsoft scale and allows Nokia to rip out costs,” said Colin Gillis, an analyst at BGC Partners in New York, who recommends buying Microsoft shares. “Microsoft is getting the platform boost.”
Although $1B USD is a nice motivator to adopt WP7, Nokia's Stephen Elop claims that Nokia would have gotten lost in vast sea of me-too Android devices, and that the Microsoft partnership gives it a chance to shine. “A decision to go with Windows Phone creates a very different dynamic. Windows Phone is a challenger. It becomes a three-horse race,” said Elop according to Mobile Beat.
Nokia’s Symbian operating system has been under a constant assault from Android. Android overtook Symbian as the world’s best-selling smartphone operating system in Q4 2010 (33.3 million units versus 31 million units).
The thing they forget to mention is that the $1b payment also gets Microsoft access to Nokia's immense patent library.
Which in itself would be worth the $1b payment.
dgaust said:
The thing they forget to mention is that the $1b payment also gets Microsoft access to Nokia's immense patent library.
Which in itself would be worth the $1b payment.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
do you know where a pdf can be found ? at this point its all speculation... but man it would be in.teresting !
I love when the fact that the people who operate these tech blogs are android fanboys shines through. It had nothing to do with them buying them away from android. 1 billion dollars is fair towards R&D from the company that they partnered with. They stayed away from android because as it says, if they embraced the lag that is android then they would be just another OEM in the sea of android OEMs, nothing special about them. This way they're not caught in a hardware battle since that's the only thing that sales android phones anymore.
ohgood said:
do you know where a pdf can be found ? at this point its all speculation... but man it would be in.teresting !
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You're right, it is all speculation (based on two people leaking) but the same sources that state the $1b also say the patent portfolio is included.
Both companies have mentioned that things like OVI maps will be integrated into Bing services, so it's not far fetched to believe that assertation.
z33dev33l said:
I love when the fact that the people who operate these tech blogs are android fanboys shines through. It had nothing to do with them buying them away from android. 1 billion dollars is fair towards R&D from the company that they partnered with. They stayed away from android because as it says, if they embraced the lag that is android then they would be just another OEM in the sea of android OEMs, nothing special about them. This way they're not caught in a hardware battle since that's the only thing that sales android phones anymore.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And what the hell is the WP7 ecosystem if not a hardware battle? If anything Nokia could have applied their own customizations to Android alà SE Xperia - but if done properly they could have had a killer hardware software combo. If anything the MS deal is like an easy way out. A huge cash influx and a guiding hand from MS. We'll see how much value add they bring to WP7, but for now the deal just looks like a giant marketing move for a fledgling platform.
Sent from my GT-I9000
radeon_x said:
And what the hell is the WP7 ecosystem if not a hardware battle? If anything Nokia could have applied their own customizations to Android alà SE Xperia - but if done properly they could have had a killer hardware software combo. If anything the MS deal is like an easy way out. A huge cash influx and a guiding hand from MS. We'll see how much value add they bring to WP7, but for now the deal just looks like a giant marketing move for a fledgling platform.
Sent from my GT-I9000
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Rather than hardware and apps selling an OS it's an OS selling an OS. Tel me, how well has Xperia done with their custom OS. Is it half as big as Samsung's unbelievably laggy touchwiz UI? Regardless of customization the Os is never it's own. Every intelligent person downloads a new launcher, even my mom figured that out and it took her 2 days to learn how the market worked. Two companies that were steadily falling downhill revamped themselves and joined forces, not to own the market but to get their piece of the pie.
oh please
z33dev33l said:
I love when the fact that the people who operate these tech blogs are android fanboys shines through. It had nothing to do with them buying them away from android. 1 billion dollars is fair towards R&D from the company that they partnered with. They stayed away from android because as it says, if they embraced the lag that is android then they would be just another OEM in the sea of android OEMs, nothing special about them. This way they're not caught in a hardware battle since that's the only thing that sales android phones anymore.
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let's try and keep it two notches above petty this not an android, wp7 or ios bashing thread.
id really like to see more leaks (if this one is true/real) and more detaols. a billion dollars and patent right to either companies portfolio is incredible.
on the vone hand, symbian is declared vdead... but good lord look at the patents... there has to be amazing tech ms and nokia could employ. wowzers !
ohgood said:
let's try and keep it two notches above petty this not an android, wp7 or ios bashing thread.
id really like to see more leaks (if this one is true/real) and more detaols. a billion dollars and patent right to either companies portfolio is incredible.
on the vone hand, symbian is declared vdead... but good lord look at the patents... there has to be amazing tech ms and nokia could employ. wowzers !
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Oh yeah, I have no doubt that both companies are going to come out hard. It's going to be amazing. I do apologize for my previous comment but that is the case with most tech blogs. Nokia had denied android long before Microsoft ever put themselves on the chopping block. I can't wait to see what comes of this partnership. I see a bright future for this infant OS.
When Elop stated the reasons why Nokia choosing Windows Phone it did seem like he was contradicting himself. But here is why it makes sense:
HTC is the king of Android, with Motorola coming in 2nd. I would argue HTC does seem to have an unfair advantage because of the close working relationship they have with Google since they developed quite a few Google branded and marketed phones, including the very first one - Google G1. I think because of this that is why they have the largest percentage of handsets on the latest firmware. If Nokia entered the Android space where would they be in the heirarchy?
Windows Phone is pretty wide open right now. They are trying to jump on the wagon before it leaves them at the station. The nay-sayers will say that is a dead wagon, but with Microsoft's money, Nokia's marketshare, and Windows Phone's potential it may very well work.
this has more to do with the allowed patents (assuming that part is real) than a phone. the patents could deal with windows8 (desktop) or current versions. keep in mind, companies don't normally toss a billion with a b around unless they are serious.
symbian does some pretty incredible stuff, and if ms were to absorb (we all are familiar with this) symbians stuffs, wow.
if anyone finds more relevant information, please do post it. remember, this is not a bash, nor a hardware thread. this is about the contract !
Yes, it doesn't have to be in the form of cash. At a previous company I worked at, MSFT invested $30 mil in the form of software and services. So some of that $1 bil/year could simply be software and services licenses to Nokia.
As for why Nokia chose WP7 -- IMO, Android is reaching a maturity level where Nokia will not be able to compete w/ other OEMs. Since WP7 is still very young, Nokia has a chance to still get in early and reap the potential for great reward. The market is saturated with Android phones, even if Nokia adds their customizations to differentiate themselves, there's still alot of competition in that space.
Michael.
^ how is that any different than the WP7 competition?
Nokia is just another OEM isn't?
vetvito said:
Nokia is just another OEM isn't?
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Not according to Nokia, part of the deal was that they could make changes to every part of the OS.
These changes would need to be rolled into the trunk, and made available back to MS (and the other OEMs), but they are allowed to do that.
The said they wouldn't initially as this would delay updates coming from MS. But I can see them working collaboratively with MS to make WP7 better. It doesn't make sense with other OEMs but leveraging Nokia's experience will be off benefit to MS in the long term.
vetvito said:
^ how is that any different than the WP7 competition?
Nokia is just another OEM isn't?
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How is that different? Well, AT&T has 7 Android phones and 3 WP7 phones. Verizon has 10 Android phones and no WP7 phones. Sprint has at least 8 Android phones and no WP7 phones. T-Mobile has at least 10 Android phones and 2 WP7 phone.
So which marketspace will offer a greater potential, one that is saturated with Android phones or one where there's only 5 WP7 offerings for the entire U.S.
Michael.
It has been said that developers will code for Windows Phone 8 devices and neglect Windows Phone 7..
I totally disagree. If I was a developer I would code for WP7 and not WP8. Not immediately anyway. At launch of WP8, there would be millions more WP7 devices than WP8 devices so why limit my sales to WP8 devices only? WP7 apps work on WP7 and WP8. WP8 apps ONLY work on WP8 devices. Therefore, I would code for WP7 devices which work on WP7 AND WP8. Makes total sense if I want to make more money from my app. I would wait several months before coding for WP8 to allow time for a large user base of WP8 owners to grow.
Considering WP7 market share is only 3.8% and the fact that it will continue to drop as people start to realize it's an orphaned platform, if WP8 is successful, I would think most developers would prefer to compile their apps for native WP8. The existing user base of WP7 phones will dry up quickly as people will upgrade at the end of their 1 or 2-year contracts.
For new developers, there's usually a good learning curve when it comes to an SDK, so I don't know why they would want to learn the WP7 SDK when they can jump right to WP8.
My company has developers that we are currently contracting for mobile development. We had an active project going on for WP7 for an enterprise app (business purposes).
The day of the announcement we halted all development... First idea was to stop coding immediately, get our hands on the new SDK, and re-write the app so it would be native to the new OS for when development is finished...
Unfortunately, no SDK is yet available for WP8, and after the business guys got involved, meeting with developers, we are thinking of switching platforms (to iOS, or Android. Whichever is more friendly for the enterprise) just because we don't want to run in to this again...
-We don't want to push this app for WP7 and have it not run natively on the new WP8...
-If we did stay with Windows Phone, we'd want it to be coded in the best way possible (using the SDK and coded best practice using the new development methods of WP8)...
-We don't want to halt development until we hear more as to WTF is going on with the SDK, development, and a product that isn't even out yet...
-We don't want to code for a platform that is obsolete (WP7).
And most of all, this applies not just to us, but to the typical dev writing a complex app... We don't have the time, funds, and budget to develop for both platforms WP7, and WP8...
Zhariak said:
Unfortunately, no SDK is yet available for WP8, and after the business guys got involved, meeting with developers, we are thinking of switching platforms (to iOS, or Android. Whichever is more friendly for the enterprise) just because we don't want to run in to this again...
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How many people are creating apps for Windows Phone exclusively? Besides the Nokia Collection (for obvious reasons) not a single other app on my phone is unique to Windows Phone. You are going to need to give us more information. Why would you ignore iphone and Andriod anyway? That's insane. It sounds like the place where you work is poorly run. I don't think that is the fault of MSFT.
sitizenx said:
How many people are creating apps for Windows Phone exclusively? Besides the Nokia Collection (for obvious reasons) not a single other app on my phone is unique to Windows Phone. You are going to need to give us more information. Why would you ignore iphone and Andriod anyway? That's insane. It sounds like the place where you work is poorly run. I don't think that is the fault of MSFT.
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The only app I know of that is exclusive to WP7 is the Walgreen's app. If you're an old, broken down POS like me, it occupies the top left tile.
sitizenx said:
How many people are creating apps for Windows Phone exclusively? Besides the Nokia Collection (for obvious reasons) not a single other app on my phone is unique to Windows Phone. You are going to need to give us more information. Why would you ignore iphone and Andriod anyway? That's insane. It sounds like the place where you work is poorly run. I don't think that is the fault of MSFT.
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We are a small biz, this isn't your average tinker app... We chose a platform and OS to our liking... Don't have the resources to manage the same app over multiple platforms... That's the main reason why we aren't developing for both development methods for WP7 and WP8.
Did we all watch the same 2 hour video of the summit? Because Joe specifically states that all windows phone 7.5 apps will work with windows 8 with "little to no tweaking of the code." So I don't get why everyone is so worried.
Laquox said:
Did we all watch the same 2 hour video of the summit? Because Joe specifically states that all windows phone 7.5 apps will work with windows 8 with "little to no tweaking of the code." So I don't get why everyone is so worried.
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They are worried about developers preferring to use the WP8 SDK instead of the obsolete WP7 SDK. Because if they do, the new apps won't run on the old phone.
Valid concern, because if I were a mobile developer, I'd prefer to use the newer SDK. The WP7 user base is not large enough for a new developer to justify learning an obsolete SDK, or an existing developer to faithfully continue using an old SDK just to appease a small base of users which will rapidly diminish. IMO, of course.
GnatGoSplat said:
They are worried about developers preferring to use the WP8 SDK instead of the obsolete WP7 SDK. Because if they do, the new apps won't run on the old phone.
Valid concern, because if I were a mobile developer, I'd prefer to use the newer SDK. The WP7 user base is not large enough for a new developer to justify learning an obsolete SDK, or an existing developer to faithfully continue using an old SDK just to appease a small base of users which will rapidly diminish. IMO, of course.
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I can see that but we probably won't see a SDK for at least 3-6 months. No developer on the planet (that I can think of) is going to wait for that amount of time to get to market. And my take from the Summit was that the 7.5 SDK will not be obsolete as your app will run on WP8. By the time WP8 has a decent enough market share it will be time to refresh your app anyway (14-18 months from now) and then you can make the jump to the new SDK which from what I watched will be almost effortless and will allow native code.
Just my thoughts here.
GnatGoSplat said:
They are worried about developers preferring to use the WP8 SDK instead of the obsolete WP7 SDK. Because if they do, the new apps won't run on the old phone.
Valid concern, because if I were a mobile developer, I'd prefer to use the newer SDK. The WP7 user base is not large enough for a new developer to justify learning an obsolete SDK, or an existing developer to faithfully continue using an old SDK just to appease a small base of users which will rapidly diminish. IMO, of course.
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In term of money, they would make more money if they can make an app that can run well on both OS without further development.
But in technology side, Native C and C++ would be easier to develop, i am start worrying that Microsoft is driving to a wrong way. Not a straight way to success, but a narrow and longer one.
Just keep thinking about what if they put the native-code support for Windows 7.8 (Simple Speaking, would be what if they make Windows Phone 8 Apps (written in Native C) can run well on Windows Phone 7.8 as well without any modification...
A little more works to be done , but think about what they can get from it. People will respect Windows Phone more, recent user will not regret with their 2-years plan as much as they do right now.
There will be some reasonable explanation about the hardware limitation of the current Windows Phone, but just think about that. I don't think it is impossible to make the current kernel support apps from Windows Phone 8.
If they can't do that right now , just be clear that they don't sound like "Windows Phone 7.8 mark the death for the current Windows Phone gen."
Windows Phone lovers won't be hurt since i know they (and i) will purchase a new phone anyway, but with some users, it is a broken deal if they just picked up a Lumia or Titan for 2-years contract and feel like Microsoft just forget about them.
GnatGoSplat said:
They are worried about developers preferring to use the WP8 SDK instead of the obsolete WP7 SDK. Because if they do, the new apps won't run on the old phone.
Valid concern, because if I were a mobile developer, I'd prefer to use the newer SDK. The WP7 user base is not large enough for a new developer to justify learning an obsolete SDK, or an existing developer to faithfully continue using an old SDK just to appease a small base of users which will rapidly diminish. IMO, of course.
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If you think WP7's userbase is small, what does that make WP8's? Non-existent. There are millions of WP7 users. By some accounts 12-16 million. How long do you think it will take for WP8 to reach those numbers?
Let's be mildly optimistic and say that WP8 launches in September and sells 2 million units per month. It would take 6 months (March 2013) before it reaches the low end WP7 number of 12 million phones sold. So, six months from now that would be equal or a bit behind what WP7 has NOW.
But, during those six months WP7 will have sold more phones. But, let's be a little more pessimistic with this outlook. Let's take the mean of the two numbers above (12 and 16) and say WP7 has sold only 14 million units in 18 months. That's almost 800k phones per month. Now, let's say in the 3 months leading up to WP8's launch, WP7 sales drop and it only sells 500k phones per month. That's another 1.5 million units prior to Wp8's launch for a total of 15.5 million phones in the wild.
So, at launch WP8 zero, WP7 15.5 million potential customers for developers. Considering that 80-90% of your code can be ported over, as a dev, why would you NOT code for WP7 first?
I know. I know. Native code this, native code that. Okay, let's look at this. How many apps are on the market place right now that can absolutely and overwhelmingly benefit from native code? I mean, the differences in performance and features would be night and day. I'd wager a small minority of apps.
So, if an app written for WP7 will perform on par with the same app written for WP8, why, again, would you not code for WP7 first? If you didn't do this you cut out millions of potential customers and who knows how much in potential revenue, all to wait for WP8 to build a userbase.
ICS is on approximately 7% of all Android handsets right now. So, using some of you all's logic, a developer should code strictly for ICS and what it offers and forgo the other 93% of potential customers. That's nigh insane to even think about if you're trying to make any money at all.
Granted Android's user base is much larger, but that was an example. Even if we say that by the time WP8 launches WP7 will only have say... ten million users, that's ten million more than WP8.
I'm going to code NOW for those millions of customers which are actually out there with phones in their hands as opposed to holding off for customers of an OS version that is probably no less than three months out and no less than six months out from building a decent user base. I hope I'm wrong and WP8 explodes like Android did after the "Droid" ad campaign.
But, if I'm not and my hypothetical numbers are even remotely close, I leave you with the old adage... a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. WP7 IS the bird in the hand in case y'all missed it.
Excellent post Wyn6. Well said. For anyone to say that WP7 SDK is dead..
well, they clearly need to change their mind pronto if they want to make money as a developer. I wish WP8 lots of success and think it will be successful, but there is still (and will be) plenty of life in WP7.
Very well said Wyn6. Can you please post it on some more threads here and around other forums where we have headless chickens running around wanting to jump the ship? I've run out of my thanks for today but will make sure they go where they are due. I will be quoting your post in numerous threads I've pulled my hair reading in past 48 hours! Hope you are ok with that
Wyn6 said:
If you think WP7's userbase is small, what does that make WP8's? Non-existent. There are millions of WP7 users. By some accounts 12-16 million. How long do you think it will take for WP8 to reach those numbers?
Let's be mildly optimistic and say that WP8 launches in September and sells 2 million units per month. It would take 6 months (March 2013) before it reaches the low end WP7 number of 12 million phones sold. So, six months from now that would be equal or a bit behind what WP7 has NOW.
But, during those six months WP7 will have sold more phones. But, let's be a little more pessimistic with this outlook. Let's take the mean of the two numbers above (12 and 16) and say WP7 has sold only 14 million units in 18 months. That's almost 800k phones per month. Now, let's say in the 3 months leading up to WP8's launch, WP7 sales drop and it only sells 500k phones per month. That's another 1.5 million units prior to Wp8's launch for a total of 15.5 million phones in the wild.
So, at launch WP8 zero, WP7 15.5 million potential customers for developers. Considering that 80-90% of your code can be ported over, as a dev, why would you NOT code for WP7 first?
I know. I know. Native code this, native code that. Okay, let's look at this. How many apps are on the market place right now that can absolutely and overwhelmingly benefit from native code? I mean, the differences in performance and features would be night and day. I'd wager a small minority of apps.
So, if an app written for WP7 will perform on par with the same app written for WP8, why, again, would you not code for WP7 first? If you didn't do this you cut out millions of potential customers and who knows how much in potential revenue, all to wait for WP8 to build a userbase.
ICS is on approximately 7% of all Android handsets right now. So, using some of you all's logic, a developer should code strictly for ICS and what it offers and forgo the other 93% of potential customers. That's nigh insane to even think about if you're trying to make any money at all.
Granted Android's user base is much larger, but that was an example. Even if we say that by the time WP8 launches WP7 will only have say... ten million users, that's ten million more than WP8.
I'm going to code NOW for those millions of customers which are actually out there with phones in their hands as opposed to holding off for customers of an OS version that is probably no less than three months out and no less than six months out from building a decent user base. I hope I'm wrong and WP8 explodes like Android did after the "Droid" ad campaign.
But, if I'm not and my hypothetical numbers are even remotely close, I leave you with the old adage... a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. WP7 IS the bird in the hand in case y'all missed it.
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Exactly what i want to say...
Countinuing supporting for Windows Phone 7 right now is the way the developer would do... Since Windows Phone 8/ Windows 8 user base would not reach to the point that WP7.5 has right now.
Wyn6 said:
ICS is on approximately 7% of all Android handsets right now. So, using some of you all's logic, a developer should code strictly for ICS and what it offers and forgo the other 93% of potential customers. That's nigh insane to even think about if you're trying to make any money at all.
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I agree. I know in the video game console market there has been a long history of making new systems incompatible with previous generations of a console. The reason being is console makers wanted software developers to use the new console's new features. If left to their own devices software makers would be a lot slower to code solely for the new hardware. I don't know why smartphones wouldn't be the same.
The people that think they are clever waiting for Windows Phone 8 are going to be disappointed. The OS will have some great new characteristics that the MSFT built in apps will take advantage of on day one but I doubt there will be a deluge of Windows Phone 8 exclusive apps for a loooonnnngggg time. Who doubts this?
nice post.
except..
you are not a developer. You don't pay 100$ a year for AppHub. You don't have to buy Visual Studio, but even ignoring that your logic is also flawed.
First developing for WP7 platform is not a profitable for the majority of devs. This is a fact, development costs are higher compared to IOS and Android (xcode is free, andriod tools are completely free), and the user base is small. Unless you're one of the few devs making enough money, there's no point supporting something that has negative returns.
pillsburydoughman said:
nice post.
except..
you are not a developer. You don't pay 100$ a year for AppHub. You don't have to buy Visual Studio, but even ignoring that your logic is also flawed.
First developing for WP7 platform is not a profitable for the majority of devs. This is a fact, development costs are higher compared to IOS and Android (xcode is free, andriod tools are completely free), and the user base is small. Unless you're one of the few devs making enough money, there's no point supporting something that has negative returns.
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You are right. Those 100,000 apps that school kids have made for WP7 in about 20 months might be better when a developer who pays $100 makes them. You will be alright.
Here is what logic tells me:
They switched to a new way of doing things (kernel) for a reason. Not because they are fickle and like to screw people over.
By switching over to a new way of doing things, this will allow them to do new things that either were not possible on WP7 or were going to be very difficult.
(so far all this makes sense to me)
Therefore, if those two things are logically sound:
Windows Phone 8 will have non-trivial improvements over Windows Phone 7.x. Things that were important enough to do something as publicly damaging as what they did by switching the kernel. Maybe it is a deeper integration (skype), an experience exactly like the PC one (IE 10) or a shared programming platform (silverlight).
How many people in here honestly believe Windows Phone 8 won't have a bunch of wow features in it when it launches that Windows Phone 7.8 will not nor ever have?
How many people believe OEMs will push out new phones with Windows 7.8 on it? Maybe Nokia on some low end Lumia bound for Asia/Africa.
The Android 2.3 vs 4.0 anaolgy really is not the same. If I am looking to port my game to Windows Phone, after that announcement I would have shelved the project. Why code for a single core phone when I can code for a dual?
The "oh I have to wait" critics of WP just got more fuel.
nicksti said:
Here is what logic tells me:
They switched to a new way of doing things (kernel) for a reason. Not because they are fickle and like to screw people over.
By switching over to a new way of doing things, this will allow them to do new things that either were not possible on WP7 or were going to be very difficult.
(so far all this makes sense to me)
Therefore, if those two things are logically sound:
Windows Phone 8 will have non-trivial improvements over Windows Phone 7.x. Things that were important enough to do something as publicly damaging as what they did by switching the kernel. Maybe it is a deeper integration (skype), an experience exactly like the PC one (IE 10) or a shared programming platform (silverlight).
How many people in here honestly believe Windows Phone 8 won't have a bunch of wow features in it when it launches that Windows Phone 7.8 will not nor ever have?
How many people believe OEMs will push out new phones with Windows 7.8 on it? Maybe Nokia on some low end Lumia bound for Asia/Africa.
The Android 2.3 vs 4.0 anaolgy really is not the same. If I am looking to port my game to Windows Phone, after that announcement I would have shelved the project. Why code for a single core phone when I can code for a dual?
The "oh I have to wait" critics of WP just got more fuel.
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This issue whether this aspect or another of that app will work on both WP7.5 and WP8 is already present with Audible release - voice control is WP8-only affair.
So there must be more things that possible software-wise on WP8 that is impossible on WP7.5 - and it is not the hardware difference.
lqaddict said:
This issue whether this aspect or another of that app will work on both WP7.5 and WP8 is already present with Audible release - voice control is WP8-only affair.
So there must be more things that possible software-wise on WP8 that is impossible on WP7.5 - and it is not the hardware difference.
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I believe people in here understand that if a software dev wanted to he/she could make software that would be compatible on WP7.8 and 8. What they are debating is if someone would. Because in theory they would want to include as many devices as possible.
Are OEMs going to make new handsets with WP7.8? If the answer is no then WP7 is dead. Dead as my goldfish Goldie.