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Earlier this week we told you guys that Windows Mobile 6.5 was going to stick around after Windows Phone 7 hits the masses. It would even take on a new name — Windows Phone Classic. With everyone sticking around and playing nice at this party, you’d think that maybe current WinMo 6.5 handsets might get a little Windows Phone 7 love. Sorry to burst your bubble.
Microsoft Mobile Communications Business Director Aaron Woodman told CNET Asia, “I don’t know if any Windows Mobile 6.5 device today meets those specifications.” It sounds like your average Microsoft move: if you want the new software, you’ll also have to get new hardware because your old junk just isn’t gonna cut it, baby.
The new handsets are getting primo parts such as Qualcomm’s 1GHz Snapdragon processor (no Tegra, sorry). WinPho 7, being a fresh OS and more intensive than its predecessors, will undoubtedly need hardware resources that most 6.5 devices just don’t have, but don’t fret. Unlike everyone staying on Windows XP when Vista came out, upgrading to WinPho 7 out of WinMo 6.5 is definitely a move in the right direction. WinMo 6.5 is going to stick around for enterprise and developing countries, so unless you’re tied to the OS for those reasons, I’m sure you wouldn’t mind ditching your current 6.5 handset for a shiny new WinPho 7 device when it comes out.
Q&A: Microsoft on Windows Phone 7 Series
CNET Asia
BARCELONA--You didn't hear? Microsoft has at long last announced the Windows Phone 7 Series at Mobile World Congress. Forget whatever impressions you have of the current Windows Mobile operating system as the new 7 Series is unlike anything we've seen. The user interface has been completely reworked to feature live tiles, panoramic screens and enhanced gaming and music experiences. Microsoft knew it had to deliver something with pow at the annual mobile tradeshow, and it did deliver. While the first devices aren't expected until the year-end holiday season, there's still a lot to know about the new software.
The new Windows Phone 7 Series interface looks nothing like its predecessors'.
We sat down with the director of Mobile Communications Business, Aaron Woodman, the general manager for Asia in the Mobile Communications Business, Natasha Kwan, and the head of Mobile Services, Manish Ladha, to discuss everything, from the software to hardware and services.
Windows Phone 7 Series
What is the Windows Phone 7 Series and is there a particular significance with the number 7 or the new naming convention? Do you think the new name will confuse users?
Woodman: There were four big pieces of news yesterday [Monday]. The biggest was Windows Phone 7 Series and all the changes in the product around smart designs, integrated experiences and the Windows Phone hubs. The second was we brought Xbox Live and Zune to Windows Phone for the first time and we will take that internationally. The third was about a specific set of partners, mobile operators and OEMs that have committed to be early launch partners. The last piece of news was on the Q4 holiday time frame launch in time for the seasonal push.
We started changing the brand strategy with Windows Mobile (WM) 6.5. We announced the new brand as Windows Phone and the OS will remain consistent in terms of naming structure, which is Windows Mobile 6.5. That actually was significant for us because it was really the first time we wanted to market software directly to consumers. So we started Windows Phone and we really shipped two products--MyPhone and Windows Marketplace--which helped us start to have a direct relationship with the customer. That was a big step because prior to that, we simply shipped the operating system, while the OEMs and mobile operators had a relationship with the customer. So WM6.5 was a very small incremental step to start that process.
Windows Phone 7 Series is us front center trying to interact with the customers to solve their needs and ultimately taking accountability. I don't think it's confusing. I think it's a change. There are a lot of changes and this is just one of many. In terms of 7, there is no particular significance around 7. There is particular emphasis on Series knowing that we're going to have a selection of phones running a single version of the product.
What took Microsoft so long to publicly announce Windows Phone 7 Series?
Aaron Woodman: I don't know whether I would say it took us so long to announce it. We started to see a pretty significant change in the market place three or four years ago and that was driven by three things. The first was customer expectations. Customers have changed pretty dramatically over the last few years. If you looked at the prices of phones and data plans in the late 1990s and early 2000s, it was the businesses that could afford those. There wasn't a lot of end-consumers out there and usage of the product.
The second was technology--what was fundamentally possible on the device and at what price points. We started to see processors, chipsets and price points of data plans come down pretty dramatically. The third was competition. There are two types of competitors. Vertical competitors are people who have the ability to achieve quality entirely because they have the software and can achieve economies of scale to drive down component prices. And also people integrating data.
These three things came together at a time which brought a lot of emphasis on how we had to change to be competitive. That change started over two years ago with a shift in leadership. The result was a strategy behind the 7 Series. There are not a lot of companies that have the ability to step back from what I would argue was a successful strategy in the mobile phone space. Today, we still sell a ton of phones.
So I don't feel late with it. I always wished I had more innovations sooner, but I think we definitely stepped back, took our time and were willing to make some pretty dramatic changes.
Dramatic it is, since the interface is unlike anything we've seen before. But how do you intend to keep up with the competition since the first devices on the new OS aren't expected until Q4 2010?
Woodman: I think we have a very unique perspective on the business. What we've seen is that most of our competition focuses on just bringing applications to the forefront. They use a very classic design language that we pioneered with a lot of our work on the desktop. Our perspective puts us into a different place because we focus much more on the customer end of the tasks and the ability to complete what you want to do. We fully expect apps to participate in that new design language. That perspective, I would argue, is quite unique to the marketplace today, and that's what results in such a different look and feel of the product. And then we brought some differentiation that I would argue most phone or phone software providers simply don't have. Xbox Live is a social game backbone with a community of over 23 million. That's not something Nokia and Apple has. They need to have a partner to do that and that makes it more difficult to do deep integration.
I would also argue that the search engine and data behind that allows us to do a very unique implementation of things like maps, search and results. If you look at the competition, there is only one provider which has that same product and that's Google. If you look at the music space, we have the PC desktop software and the ability to think about the rich integration between the PC and the phone, and the only one that kind of does that today is Apple. If you start to add these pieces together, you can identify unique competitors like MyPhone, MobileMe and Ovi. As a whole , there are very few people who have these assets. What I can say about our competitors is that they are very respectful and have great products, but I feel very good about my ability to differentiate both in the short and long term.
Why would anyone want to buy a 7 Series device over an iPhone, Android, Nokia or a BlackBerry?
Woodman: I think there are two reasons, and probably the biggest reason is that people will be drawn to the design. I really do think that's the case when you start focusing on things like the task rather than the applications. I think people will be drawn to the fact that they are able to see their information quickly, easily and in a readable fashion. Also, we thought about the design in terms of the motion and transitions where you see things fly in and out in a very dynamic fashion.
The second thing people will be drawn to is the idea of taking the most common tasks and bringing them together. People are a great example where today you really get fragmented in the people experience. And we start to see some people do some very, very lightweight integration of social networking. We think we are going to deliver that in a way that is going to be quite unique.
What operating system does Windows Phone 7 Series run on? Is there a name for it?
Woodman: There's product brand and product line. The brand is Windows Phone and Windows Phone 7 Series is the product line. The OS will be Windows Phone OS 7.
Are the codes different from the current CE codes?
Woodman: Yes, all the software was revisited when we built Windows Phone 7 Series. Nobody felt like an incremental change was going to get us to a point where we felt we would be competitive over the next several years. Across the board, I don't think anyone felt restrained to stay inside our current development model. We'll come back again and talk about that at MIX (a Microsoft Web design/development event) in March.
How can manufacturers differentiate their products?
Aaron Woodman: You'll see mobile operators and OEMs bring differentiation into the software experience through unique access to some tools. That said, you won't see any user experience on top of Windows Phone 7 Series. You won't see any skinning and those sort of things. There is so much fragmentation where the ecosystem is kind of butting heads against the same innovation. You won't see any opportunity for any OEM or third-party app developer to take over the user experience.
Hardware
What has Microsoft done since the acquisition of Danger? Are there any developments on that front and what are the company's plans for Danger?
Woodman: What I will tell you is that the number one thing we got from Danger is really about people and their expertise in the mobile phone space. You'll see a lot of benefits here as we start to think about how to structure hardware and work with hardware partners.
Can you give a straight answer on whether Microsoft will release a consumer phone line?
Woodman: Just answer this straight? [Exasperated laughter] The answer is, I don't really know. And the reason I don't know is we have mobile as a strategy as a company and I will tell you the company is not aggressive in that marketplace. If we felt like there was an opportunity to do something really compelling and different, we would do it. That said, Microsoft has a partner-driven model and we believe in the benefits of partnerships.
What are the hardware specifications Microsoft is laying out for OEMs?
Woodman: We will provide the OS primarily to software developers in March. Every 7 Series device will have a Qualcomm chip. It will be touch-based. There won't be any non-touch, but that's not saying there won't be any keyboard devices, so they will all be touch and capacitive. There is a single aspect ratio. It will have Wi-Fi and GPS and other services which we will talk about soon.
Can the users of the current Windows Mobile software upgrade to the new one when it comes out?
Woodman: I don't know if any Windows Mobile 6.5 device today meets those specifications.
How many 7 Series devices can users expect this year?
Woodman: A billion! No, I don't know. You saw the announcement of the OEMs and it's really up to them in terms of how many devices they release in the different markets.
Windows Mobile 6.x
What happens now to Windows Mobile 6.5, or even 6.5.3? Are you going to completely phase out the current WinMo or will it continue with a different proposition?
Woodman: We don't have a specific timeline for Windows Mobile 6.5. It still has a lot of demand and value for both OEMs and customers today. The reality is that demand will determine the lifespan of Windows Mobile 6.5. So as long as OEMs and customers find value there, we'll continue to support and sell the product.
Are there going to be new devices coming out this year?
Kwan: Yes. When we announced Windows Mobile 6.5 in October last year, we said we will continue to have updates. WM6.5.3 is an update in terms of added feature functionality. In the WM6 platform, there were a lot of legacy applications that were written with the stylus in mind. So we have the magnifier to enhance the touch experience for these apps. We also anticipate 14 new devices out in Asia in the next six months.
Are the target user groups of Windows Mobile 6.5, 6.5.3 and Windows Phone 7 Series different?
Kwan: The target audience is similar. Internally, we call it the life maximizer, but that's really about the 23-35 age group. We are talking about a group of people who are actually quite settled in what they do. They are confident people. They have a lot of priorities to juggle at work and in personal lives. Yet, they also want their phone to be able to help them obtain information to make their decision.
With Windows Phone 7 Series, we have built the OS from the ground up. We really want to take a lot of accountability in the user experience. We want to ensure that we build greater quality and consistency with the phone and have an integrated experience. For WM6.5, it is going to be the platform where we allow OEM partners to continue to have their unique user interfaces. It is also a platform today where a lot of enterprise business apps are being built. More and more, we are seeing that the phone is critical for a lot of these enterprise apps. That's where WM6.5 continues to hold a lot of strength in a managed enterprise environment.
Services
Will the entire suite of Live services be available on Windows Phone 7 Series?
Ladha: We will continue to provide the existing experience even as we go into the 7 Series. It's not really classified as Windows Live, but within the People Hub, there will be updates coming from Windows Live or Facebook. Essentially, it's getting all your communication in one place.
Will there be Live services specific to 7 Series?
Ladha: Xbox Live and Zune are new to Windows Phone 7 Series. On WM6.5, you have Marketplace and MyPhone, and that will continue on for the 7 Series.
...
...
What kind of gaming experience can users look forward to on the 7 Series devices? And what do developers have to look out for?
Ladha: That's still evolving and we will be discussing that in the next conference. You can see your avatars on your Windows Phones. You will get the same experience as on the Xbox, but this question of which games and to what extent is still being defined.
Assuming I have an Xbox and some games, do I have to repurchase the games to play on the handset?
Ladha: The actual mechanics in terms of which games and the payment process will be disclosed at a later stage.
Which version of the IE browser is it?
Ladha: The IE browser on the 7 Series is not really IE7 or IE8 from the PC but is built specifically for the mobile device. Previously, on WM6.5, we had Pocket IE, so it's an evolution of that. But it also has a lot of elements from the IE7 and IE8 in terms of the experience.
What is the name of this IE browser?
Ladha: We are not disclosing that right now.
It was said during the press conference that every 7 Series device is a Zune. Does that mean there won't be anymore dedicated Zune media players?
Ladha: We won't be commenting on that right now. Each and every 7 Series device will have the entire Zune experience in terms of playback and user interface currently available on the Zune HD.
What's the portfolio of Live services?
Ladha: Hotmail, Messenger and Photos are the more popular ones. There's also Spaces, but it's not that prominent. SkyDrive is a very popular service on the PC. However, we have a similar service which is called MyPhone.
It seems there's some duplication of services. Does Microsoft plan to combine them moving forward?
Ladha: I won't call it duplication of features. It's just that on the phone, there is no Windows Live SkyDrive for mobile. Instead, it's MyPhone. So it's ultimately performing the same actions.
my opinion
just microsoft's illusions for forcing people to buying new crapgadgets just for playing with new os.
Sina™ said:
my opinion
microsoft's illusions for forcing people to buying new crapgadgets just for playing with new os.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
and that will only work with the help of those users who wana change from iphone or symbian and move to winmo7. i doubt power users of android and winmo 6.5.x will prefer much of this new limited environment of winmo7.
with what they think they r providing will be gr8 for end user. i can assure that winmo7 is gonna fall like vista.
winmo 5-6.5.x has never been a sexy OS. it only worked cause most of its users know its power of customization. thats the reason winmo has been living for soo long. without that i doubt they'll b able to sustain much. i may be turned out wrong but this is what i strongly feel.
that's a good news.
microsoft will fail again & people will switch to android or iphone.
but what if xda devs fail to port android to wm 6.xx devices?
Sina™ said:
that's a good news.
microsoft will fail again & people will switch to android or iphone.
but what if xda devs fail to port android to wm 6.xx devices?
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Click to collapse
i doubt xda will fail at portin androind. sooner or later they will. like they have done for hd and tp2.
That's right, WP7 might not for power user ... if and only if it is quite limited in terms of customization / tweaking, just like iPhone.
But, it is early to tell that WP7 will fail.
Why?
Because power user is much more limited in terms of numbers compared to regular users.
And dont forget people JUMPING platform from iPhone, Nokia, BB, Android, others to WP7 ... just to try something new or they think it is more attractive.
You cannot rule that out.
Mr. Makk said:
and that will only work with the help of those users who wana change from iphone or symbian and move to winmo7. i doubt power users of android and winmo 6.5.x will prefer much of this new limited environment of winmo7.
with what they think they r providing will be gr8 for end user. i can assure that winmo7 is gonna fall like vista.
winmo 5-6.5.x has never been a sexy OS. it only worked cause most of its users know its power of customization. thats the reason winmo has been living for soo long. without that i doubt they'll b able to sustain much. i may be turned out wrong but this is what i strongly feel.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Buying a phone should not be enforcement.
I feel sorry for you if you were forced to buy a phone / gadget
There are choices as you said, iPhone, Android, Nokia, upcoming MeeGo or even Bada OS.
Sina™ said:
my opinion
just microsoft's illusions for forcing people to buying new crapgadgets just for playing with new os.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i dont want new gadgets every year, i want strong 3rd party support like iphone.
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft...phone-7-developers-developers-developers/6867
Windcape said:
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft...phone-7-developers-developers-developers/6867
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Click to collapse
the quoted materia:
ZDNet said:
Microsoft: Bring on the Windows Phone 7 developers, developers developers
On July 19, Microsoft began shipping out thousands of Windows Phone 7 (WP7) test units from LG and Samsung — running a near-final Technical Preview build of its new mobile operating system — to developers all over the world.
It’s crunch time for the Softies. They have developed a new phone platform from scratch that looks and feels different from what’s available from Apple, Android backers and RIM. They’ve built it, but will developers come? Microsoft is counting on its developer tools, its developer outreach programs and developer guarantees (in the form of payments if WP7 apps don’t sell as well as expected) to generate quantity and quality WP7 apps.
It’s no coincidence, as Engadget notes, that the packaging for the WP7 test units says “developers, developers, developers” on the box. (Sorry, there’s no Monkey Boy toy inside.) WP7 phone hardware and data plans are going to be key to determining how well WP7 will do versus its competition when those phones begin shipping in October in Europe and November in the U.S. But the number and kinds of apps that developers build are going to be make-or-break, as well.
There’s an evangelism team that’s been working for months to get developers on board with WP7. I’ve been talking to a number of them for the past few weeks so as to understand their big-picture goals and plans to try to win developers hearts and minds in a world where Windows Mobile is falling out of favor and iOS and Android are grabbing the attention and share.
Charlie Kindel, a 20-year Microsoft veteran who runs the Windows Phone Developer Experience, is one of the main forces behind Microsoft’s mobile developer outreach. After hearing about Microsoft’s renewed focus on mobile (and some of the big names named to run the development side of the project), Kindel joined the team in February 2009.
“Windows Phone is not an end game. It’s more of a means,” said Kindel. “Devs don’t think about apps being just client code any more. Over the past ten years, it has become the case that the core resides in the cloud, and rich clients ‘light it up’ for the user. That means it’s not so much about porting the same apps to different screens, it’s more about creating application components that cross all three screens. As your experience changes, what should an app look like and how do you eanble that? I want to make WP7 one of the screens that is supported.”
(The “cloud,” in this case, can mean Microsoft cloud services like Azure; cloud services someone else has built like Twitter; or services intrinsic to WP7, like notification, location, Xbox Live, etc., Kindel explained.)
I asked Kindel what has surprised him — and what he thinks might surprise others — about WP7. He talked about speaking to 7,000 mobile developers during a recent European tour. Relatively few had ever used Microsoft developer tools. (In one meeting, only about 10 percent had used Microsoft tools of any kind, he said.) When Microsoft showed them Visual Studio and Windows Phone development tools, “the reaction was one of disbelief,” he said, because “our tools were so much better.”
“Developers want to use the tools they already know, but at the same time, they want to know someone has thought holistically about the end-to-end process,” Kindel said. “Even though we are investing in all of these (development) areas, you don’t have to use all of our stuff.”
Microsoft’s message to developers considering WP7 is to use Silverlight or the XNA Framework to write applications and games for the forthcoming phones. And company officials are touting the transparency of the app approval process, as well as the fact that only Microsoft-certified applications will be available via the Windows Phone Marketplace as positives for developers and users.
No matter how good Microsoft’s developer story sounds, Kindel knows that it’s going to be tough to convince some developers there’s enough financial opportunity to make the development of a WP7 app worthwhile.
“The installed market is not very big, so we have to show them how much we’re investing to create a phenomenal user experience. We have to show marketing and engineering seriousness,” he said.
Microsoft hasn’t made any promises as to how many WP7 phone apps there will be out of the gate, or provided many names of developers already committed to the platform. Kindel said to expect a mix of big-name apps and brand-new ones.
“There are a type of apps users just want to exist — things like a service-enabled world clock or a level, for example,” he said. “Then there are apps no one has really thought about yet, with unique capabilities. We want there to be fantastic and beautiful examples of each.”
Who else is on Microsoft’s WP7 developer outreach team? It’s not just members of Microsoft’s Communications Business. I’ve got a “who’s who” post coming up, which includes WP7 developer team members from Microsoft’s Interactive Entertainment Business, Windows Live and the Developer Division.
In the meantime, any developers (or potential customers) have developer-focused questions for the WP7 team?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My reasons why I think Windows Phone 7 fail. I'm not here to profess my love for Apple, Google, Linux, Open Source or Nokia. Rather I'm here to present simple facts and problems that could be bad for the platform.
Windows Phone 7 lacks CDMA support: Why? So your going to tell many of the thousands of Verizon Wireless, Sprint, US Cellular Users, MetroPCs cellphone users well I'm glad you were excited about Windows Phone 7 but sorry no handset for you.
It Cost's Money: Why would a phone manufacturer pay to use a platform that is very immature, when you could easily make a device that has a mature platform like Android or Symbian without paying a licensing to use the OS.
Hardware Requirements prevent it from reaching low end markets: Well requiring basic thing like Accelerometer with compass, ambient light sensor, proximity sensor, 5mp camera, shutterbutton, and Assisted GPS etc is perfectly acceptable but requiring a 1ghz processor will raise hardware costs and will prevent low end and midrange phone users from buying Windows Phone 7 devices.
Windows Mobile 6.5 has little marketshare and the Microsoft Kin Was a Huge Failure: Why would smarthphone manufacturers want to create a phone with Windows Phone 7 when Windows Mobile 6.5 in its current form has much less then competitors 6-8 percent and the failure of the Microsoft shows has little understanding of the mobile marketplace.
I don't mean to cause hate I was just giving Windows Phone 7 valid criticism. Please leave your thoughts down below.
Your criticism is wellcomed here. But I gonna criticize your criticism.
CDMA Support will come. 6months after the release of the GSM version. The Iphone is huge and is only on one carrier, a gsm carrier at that, did CMDA hurt it. The first US Android device was the Tmobile G1. It was the only Android device for a while, and again launched on a GSM carrier, but look Android is huge now.. Also the main market MS is aiming at is the Euro/Asia Market which is mostly GSM. So you think about smart move or not?
It cost money? The top selling Android phones are all premium devices. They're sold at $199 on each carrier. If price is a bad, thing how did the Iphone become so popular? Those specs MS chose are to keep a quality control on the hardware so devs can fully utilitize the hardware. If MS used lower specs than devs would have to support the least common denominator and the app won't be as optimized.
Yes WM6.5 wasn't successful, but there are reasons behind that fragmentation and LOW SPECS. The kin was a failure from the beginning since it took away MS resource and time away from WP7. WM6.5 and the Kin didn't have the features that WP7 has, nor did they have the dev support that WP7 is receiving which is what will make it successful.
juliusaugustus said:
My reasons why I think Windows Phone 7 fail. I'm not here to profess my love for Apple, Google, Linux, Open Source or Nokia. Rather I'm here to present simple facts and problems that could be bad for the platform.
Windows Phone 7 lacks CDMA support: Why? So your going to tell many of the thousands of Verizon Wireless, Sprint, US Cellular Users, MetroPCs cellphone users well I'm glad you were excited about Windows Phone 7 but sorry no handset for you.
It Cost's Money: Why would a phone manufacturer pay to use a platform that is very immature, when you could easily make a device that has a mature platform like Android or Symbian without paying a licensing to use the OS.
Hardware Requirements prevent it from reaching low end markets: Well requiring basic thing like Accelerometer with compass, ambient light sensor, proximity sensor, 5mp camera, shutterbutton, and Assisted GPS etc is perfectly acceptable but requiring a 1ghz processor will raise hardware costs and will prevent low end and midrange phone users from buying Windows Phone 7 devices.
Windows Mobile 6.5 has little marketshare and the Microsoft Kin Was a Huge Failure: Why would smarthphone manufacturers want to create a phone with Windows Phone 7 when Windows Mobile 6.5 in its current form has much less then competitors 6-8 percent and the failure of the Microsoft shows has little understanding of the mobile marketplace.
I don't mean to cause hate I was just giving Windows Phone 7 valid criticism. Please leave your thoughts down below.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My thought is don't judge a thing before it is released...
For your CDMA support point, did Iphone and Android release CDMA phone when they are launched. NO, why? This a basic business or economic knowledge, since WP7 is new product and GSM still the priority. Microsoft has to see how consumers respond to their concept, CDMA definitely will be supported soon.
Yeah...Of course,it cost money, but this is depends how the manufacturers deal with Microsoft. For example, Microsoft might offer a very low price to manufacturers to use their operating system or Manufacturer foresee the future vale of WP7. Furthermore, these big companies got many financial analyzers.This is what you no need worry about it.Lastly, What consumers want to see is the actual price of the handset and the actual values it brought to us.
Regarding the low end market, of course, Microsoft is conducting product-differentiation strategy, thats why they did'n aim the low end market. Furthermore, the required hardwares are to ensure to user experiences. For example, Comparing HTC Tattoo and HTC evo. If you bought Tattoo, most users definitely will blame the android OS but not the hardwares, because not everyone in the world is tech-geek. In contrast, the handset you bought is HTC evo, you definitely will feel that is awesome, no laggy,smooth, fast, great resolution.
Regarding the Microsoft Kin, what I predict is, but not confirmed, Microsoft try to observe the consumer spending behaviour and handphone demand, but not try to earn the profit. For instance, the advertisement fees on KIN, I can say it is extremely low. Furthermore, KIN just open for US market. Lastly, Microsoft can cut down the production of this phone so fast and quick with minimal lost. So, you can see that maybe they already plan to cut down the procution at the beginning. And they are preparing something big at the backstage...which is WP7...
When you comparing WM6 and WP7 is completely wrong, because this two OSes are completely different, in term of UI, functionalities and etc.....Everyone knows that the WM6 market share is extremely low now. In my opinion, this is what Microsoft done wrong, back in few years ago, WM6 still dominate the Smartphone market so called monopoly, and Microsoft didn't realised the threat of new entrants such as android and iOS. In addition, Microsoft focused more on PC OS.
Lastly, I just hope don't judge something before you try or use...
Cheers...
you know there is life outside USA and it's 95% GSM network running world out there...
I think more than the licensing fees and hardware limitations, WP7 will be capped by a messaging and features challenge.
How do you convince the average smartphone user to get a WP7 device instead of an iPhone or Android handset? WP7's UI is different, but it's not necessarily compelling. WP7 might have integrated FB status updates in the People hub, but for full FB functions, you'd have to have an FB app anyway. I'm skeptical that people will be convinced of the alleged "at a glance" experience of WP7 (the WM6 Today screen, for that matter, gave much more info at a glance but had to be hidden by every OEM).
Xbox Live score/achievement integration is the only real differentiator, but that only matters to Xbox gamers, and even when it comes to gaming, the iPhone has WP7 handily beat with several games that have real-time local + online multiplayer support (something WP7 does not support).
Gaming graphics are not going to be a big one either, as the iPhone has dozens of first-rate 3D games, and given that all first-gen WP7 devices will have the aging first-gen Snapdragon chip (MSM8250 @ 1 GHz), the iPhone 3GS, 4, and many Android devices have more powerful GPUs in any case.
Zune integration doesn't appeal to average users (just look at Zune's market share). Average consumers will see WP7 as being similar to Android in that it doesn't sync with iTunes. The alternative may be there (Zune for WP7, Amazon and others for Android), but from an initial purchase standpoint, they're thinking about iTunes or no iTunes.
WP7 has no killer app on the business front either, with such a limited Office experience (Word/Excel/etc. can make only rudimentary changes to documents, compared to much richer 3rd party editing apps on the iPhone), no Outlook sync support (for offices that don't use Exchange), and an Exchange ActiveSync experience not terribly different from the iPhone's or Android's. I think MS' marketing push highlighting Xbox Live integration will also hurt WP7 on the business credibility front.
amb9800 said:
I think more than the licensing fees and hardware limitations, WP7 will be capped by a messaging and features challenge.
How do you convince the average smartphone user to get a WP7 device instead of an iPhone or Android handset? WP7's UI is different, but it's not necessarily compelling. WP7 might have integrated FB status updates in the People hub, but for full FB functions, you'd have to have an FB app anyway. I'm skeptical that people will be convinced of the alleged "at a glance" experience of WP7 (the WM6 Today screen, for that matter, gave much more info at a glance but had to be hidden by every OEM).
Xbox Live score/achievement integration is the only real differentiator, but that only matters to Xbox gamers, and even when it comes to gaming, the iPhone has WP7 handily beat with several games that have real-time local + online multiplayer support (something WP7 does not support).
Gaming graphics are not going to be a big one either, as the iPhone has dozens of first-rate 3D games, and given that all first-gen WP7 devices will have the aging first-gen Snapdragon chip (MSM8250 @ 1 GHz), the iPhone 3GS, 4, and many Android devices have more powerful GPUs in any case.
Zune integration doesn't appeal to average users (just look at Zune's market share). Average consumers will see WP7 as being similar to Android in that it doesn't sync with iTunes. The alternative may be there (Zune for WP7, Amazon and others for Android), but from an initial purchase standpoint, they're thinking about iTunes or no iTunes.
WP7 has no killer app on the business front either, with such a limited Office experience (Word/Excel/etc. can make only rudimentary changes to documents, compared to much richer 3rd party editing apps on the iPhone), no Outlook sync support (for offices that don't use Exchange), and an Exchange ActiveSync experience not terribly different from the iPhone's or Android's. I think MS' marketing push highlighting Xbox Live integration will also hurt WP7 on the business credibility front.
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For the game on windows phone 7,i never worry about this...please go over here and have a lookhttp://www.xbox.com/en-US/live/phone/default.htm...XBOX live integration is not only for XBOX anymore. What Microsoft try to do is create a platform for gamers, like what has bee appeared in iphone,GAME CENTRE and PLUS+...
I think ZUNE integration would be a killer...try the ZUNE software herehttp://www.zune.net/en-us/products/software/download/default.htm
Even, you didn't own a ZUNE, you can use it too. Now ZUNE player already my default music and movie player. It's great and awesome, especially finding album arts, great graphic and etc...Furthermore, what I like is I can play any song in my PC without convert or create a new datastore to store the converted music...and ITUNES did this.omg, it wastes my hard drive spaces.About the market share, same situation again...ZUNE is just for sales in US market. Therefore, can't compare it with itunes store....
However, I might be wrong...Just stay tuned...WP7 gonna launch in this month...
Cheers...
sylau90 said:
For the game on windows phone 7,i never worry about this...please go over here and have a lookhttp://www.xbox.com/en-US/live/phone/default.htm...XBOX live integration is not only for XBOX anymore. What Microsoft try to do is create a platform for gamers, like what has bee appeared in iphone,GAME CENTRE and PLUS+...
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Click to collapse
But that's precisely the problem. What does WP7 offer casual phone gamers that the iPhone doesn't? The iPhone has a large existing game library, multiplayer support, more powerful graphics hardware than all WP7 launch phones, and now even some of the score/achievement tracking that Xbox Live offers.
sylau90 said:
I think ZUNE integration would be a killer...try the ZUNE software here http://www.zune.net/en-us/products/software/download/default.htm
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Click to collapse
Sure, the Zune service and client are nice, but they haven't been compelling enough to gain any real market share in the last few years. Now that Apple has opened up the App Store a bit, several other streaming / subscription services are now available on the iPhone as well.
I'm not saying WP7 won't offer a nice media and gaming experience-- it's just that in order to succeed, MS needs to present a clear and compelling reason people should buy WP7 phones.
The iPhone delivers the smoothest phone UI, huge app library, solid browsing experience, seamless media experience, and simplicity. Android offers choice of form factor and carrier, great integration with Google services (with lots of people use), and almost-WM6-like openness while still offering a smooth user experience).
What does WP7 bring to the table that the iPhone and Android don't?
amb9800 said:
But that's precisely the problem. What does WP7 offer casual phone gamers that the iPhone doesn't? The iPhone has a large existing game library, multiplayer support, more powerful graphics hardware than all WP7 launch phones, and now even some of the score/achievement tracking that Xbox Live offers.
Sure, the Zune service and client are nice, but they haven't been compelling enough to gain any real market share in the last few years. Now that Apple has opened up the App Store a bit, several other streaming / subscription services are now available on the iPhone as well.
I'm not saying WP7 won't offer a nice media and gaming experience-- it's just that in order to succeed, MS needs to present a clear and compelling reason people should buy WP7 phones.
The iPhone delivers the smoothest phone UI, huge app library, solid browsing experience, seamless media experience, and simplicity. Android offers choice of form factor and carrier, great integration with Google services (with lots of people use), and almost-WM6-like openness while still offering a smooth user experience).
What does WP7 bring to the table that the iPhone and Android don't?
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Yeah, actually, personally I think that Apple and android marketing strategies are far more strong than Microsoft. Furthermore, What I like Apple provided is the frequency of operating system updates. Therefore, we no need to change the handset frequently in order to get the latest updates or functionalities.
However, the frequency of windows phone 7 updates are unknown, nobody knows. However,in here I can say that. Apple, Microsoft and Android using totally different strategies. Since Microsoft didn't manufature their own handsets, they just sell OS to manaufacturers. Therefore, it's unlikely they will provide the update very often. However for Apple,they do manufacture their own handsets, therefore they can focus more on software updates and applications, because all the profit will just go into their pockets.
What Microsoft prepared are the new LIVE TILES UI which I think is the success part, because currently I'm using latest windows live messenger and and zune software. they are awesome.
However, now everyone is enjoying the Apple and Android banquet...let's see what cuisines Microsoft prepared for us...By the way, Dell Lightning with WP7 is a good and sexy device, gonna get one if there is one.
Live tile is basically a Android widget.
Hubs is where WP7 will shine, can't wait to see 3rd party hubs.
juliusaugustus said:
Windows Phone 7 lacks CDMA support: Why? So your going to tell many of the thousands of Verizon Wireless, Sprint, US Cellular Users, MetroPCs cellphone users well I'm glad you were excited about Windows Phone 7 but sorry no handset for you.
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So does iOS, and that's doing well. Also CDMA will come in time.
juliusaugustus said:
It Cost's Money: Why would a phone manufacturer pay to use a platform that is very immature, when you could easily make a device that has a mature platform like Android or Symbian without paying a licensing to use the OS.
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It's not all that expensive...it's $10 dollars that you pass onto the user anyway. Instead of your phone costing 200-300 dollars to manufacture it costs +10 dollars more. The final price for a phone is 500-600...10 dollars more is hardly something to think about.
Also you have to pay for desktop windows, or pay a very high preimum for OSX + hardware....they're both doing better than linux in the PC world.
juliusaugustus said:
Hardware Requirements prevent it from reaching low end markets: Well requiring basic thing like Accelerometer with compass, ambient light sensor, proximity sensor, 5mp camera, shutterbutton, and Assisted GPS etc is perfectly acceptable but requiring a 1ghz processor will raise hardware costs and will prevent low end and midrange phone users from buying Windows Phone 7 devices.
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So? that hasn't hurt iOS...and this is something that has to do with time...hardware costs become cheaper over time, so eventually these hardware requirements will become cheap to manufacture and it will enter the low end market.
juliusaugustus said:
Windows Mobile 6.5 has little marketshare and the Microsoft Kin Was a Huge Failure: Why would smarthphone manufacturers want to create a phone with Windows Phone 7 when Windows Mobile 6.5 in its current form has much less then competitors 6-8 percent and the failure of the Microsoft shows has little understanding of the mobile marketplace.
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Windows Mobile lost market share because they didn't update it as frequently as they should...then they decided to make a paradigm shift and people slowly abandoned windows mobile since there was no future to the OS.
Also, WM still has a decent market share. It's 6-8% in the states and in the teens in Europe according to some recent reports.
juliusaugustus said:
I don't mean to cause hate I was just giving Windows Phone 7 valid criticism. Please leave your thoughts down below.
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Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but no one has a crystal ball.
vetvito said:
Live tile is basically a Android widget.
Hubs is where WP7 will shine, can't wait to see 3rd party hubs.
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Click to collapse
To some degree...I like widgets in theory, but in practice I always disable them if a phone OS allows me to and go to something more unified like Titanium. The reason I dislike widgets is that there are no design guidelines for them generally so it makes your start page look like crap. Live tiles are widgets done right imo.
How about you Americans ditch that way outdated technology? There's absolutely no merit apart from device-based tie-in to a provider.
vetvito said:
Live tile is basically a Android widget.
Hubs is where WP7 will shine, can't wait to see 3rd party hubs.
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Click to collapse
where can I download live tile widget for android?can you give me the name?wanna give it a try...
yea,the hubs....and cloud-based service.you are able to sync almost everything to skydrive.
I'm still shaking the wait and see approach. MS hasn't done much to impress me. Zune player is a skinned windows media player with one or two neat plugins.
If MS follows suit it'll be another great idea poorly executed. Just look at windows for the pc.
MS's big problem is they charge you for crap that is full of security holes, buggy, not up to par in general. Then they expect you to just deal or con you into thinking that it's the cream of the crop when it's really just a polished turd.
Sent from my FroyoEris using XDA App
Tom Servo said:
How about you Americans ditch that way outdated technology? There's absolutely no merit apart from device-based tie-in to a provider.
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Actually, CDMA is superior in almost any aspect. UMTS (3G) has much more in common with CDMA than with GSM.
sylau90 said:
where can I download live tile widget for android?can you give me the name?wanna give it a try...
yea,the hubs....and cloud-based service.you are able to sync almost everything to skydrive.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Huh, pick one?
vetvito said:
Huh, pick one?
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Sorry,just now I didn't read your sentence clearly. I thought you said there are some widgets work like live tiles...sorry...haha
jonscapri said:
I'm still shaking the wait and see approach. MS hasn't done much to impress me. Zune player is a skinned windows media player with one or two neat plugins.
If MS follows suit it'll be another great idea poorly executed. Just look at windows for the pc.
MS's big problem is they charge you for crap that is full of security holes, buggy, not up to par in general. Then they expect you to just deal or con you into thinking that it's the cream of the crop when it's really just a polished turd.
Sent from my FroyoEris using XDA App
Click to expand...
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To Me that would would be the defination of Apple and Steve Jobs...
Windows Phone 7 lacks CDMA support: Why? So your going to tell many of the thousands of Verizon Wireless, Sprint, US Cellular Users, MetroPCs cellphone users well I'm glad you were excited about Windows Phone 7 but sorry no handset for you.
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Click to collapse
Well, CDMA support has been confirmed for early 2011. GSM is what over 90% of the world uses so GSM is coming first.
It Cost's Money: Why would a phone manufacturer pay to use a platform that is very immature, when you could easily make a device that has a mature platform like Android or Symbian without paying a licensing to use the OS.
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Click to collapse
This platform would be chosen over both of those because it's an OS that has that "it just works" factor that everyone loves about the iPhone. It's smooth, has great games, zune, office, etc...
Hardware Requirements prevent it from reaching low end markets: Well requiring basic thing like Accelerometer with compass, ambient light sensor, proximity sensor, 5mp camera, shutterbutton, and Assisted GPS etc is perfectly acceptable but requiring a 1ghz processor will raise hardware costs and will prevent low end and midrange phone users from buying Windows Phone 7 devices.
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This is a great thing since it means everyone will be able to run the OS and games smoothly. Prices will drop as hardware matures. $199 is pretty standard for those specs and it's a price many are willing to pay.
Windows Mobile 6.5 has little marketshare and the Microsoft Kin Was a Huge Failure: Why would smarthphone manufacturers want to create a phone with Windows Phone 7 when Windows Mobile 6.5 in its current form has much less then competitors 6-8 percent and the failure of the Microsoft shows has little understanding of the mobile marketplace.
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Click to collapse
Both have almost nothing to do with Windows Phone. Kin was a huge failure for two reasons IMO, it had to have a data plan, and it lacked apps and games. Manufacturers are already dropping Symbian and Windows Mobile 6.5 isn't supported my MS anymore. Manufacturers are behind WP7 because it's a complete refresh. It's different and looks fun.
jonscapri said:
I'm still shaking the wait and see approach. MS hasn't done much to impress me. Zune player is a skinned windows media player with one or two neat plugins.
If MS follows suit it'll be another great idea poorly executed. Just look at windows for the pc.
MS's big problem is they charge you for crap that is full of security holes, buggy, not up to par in general. Then they expect you to just deal or con you into thinking that it's the cream of the crop when it's really just a polished turd.
Sent from my FroyoEris using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Zune Player is a bit more than a skinned WMP. It has themes, marketplace, subscriptions service, and it has more features like SmartDJ. Windows 7 is a great OS. I haven't had any problems with performance or security at all.
When Windows Phone 7 was announced, every WinMo fan could not wait to see what Microsoft was going to come up with. We were all hoping that Microsoft could give us a modern mobile OS that was feature-rich and stable. Something at best better than Android and at worst comparable.
The first set of news that started to raise eyebrows was the complete design control Microsoft imposed on the phones. From the cpu speed to the number of physical buttons, we jokingly said Microsoft was beginning to sound like Apple. But we brushed it off saying that the high minimum requirements meant all the phones were going to be fabulously powerful and there is nothing wrong with that.
Then more disturbing things started to come out. No bluetooth transfer or mass storage mode. Conflicting reports were coming out about the memory card or lack thereof. There would be no Flash support and Zune software will be needed to manage files on the phone. Suddenly the mobile OS Microsoft was creating started to sound less and less like Android and more like iOS.
But I believe that Microsoft does not see Windows Phone 7 as a competitor to the Android and iPhone phones of this world. I think they are actually after the Blackberry market instead. Then all these limitations make sense. Windows Phone 7 has too many mass consumer limitations to compete with a well established Android OS. But the Blackberry market, as insane as it sounds with how rooted BBs are in government and corporations, is actually attainable.
Microsoft put effort into creating a phone that is a hub of information. Email capabilities when using an Exchange server look amazing. MSN messenger already has a large user base.
+ WP7 handsets are more technologically advanced than BB handsets
+ MSN Messenger is better than BB Messenger
+ Browser experience is without question better than what BB is offering now
- BB is the king of email and WP7 will have to work to trump BB.
But it makes for more sense for this phone to be a BlackBerry beater than an Android one. I would pick any of the 9 debut handsets over a Blackberry. I would have a harder time choosing them over a Desire.
The only hopes of trumping BB phones is rooted in security. For any company to allow the use of wp7 phones, there will needed to be extensive security testing to ensure that the intellectual property is safeguarded. This is especially applicable to governments.
And I believe that is exactly what they did. Here is an interview taken from everythingwm.com:
Two conspicuous absences in the abilities of Windows Phone 7 are Flash and Silverlight — the latter especially, as it is developed by Microsoft themselves. TechRadar talked to Microsoft’s Andy Lees, president of the mobile communications division, on the issue, and this is what he had to say:
“It’s not a religious thing; we support standard H.264 video in the browser. We’re not allergic to Flash, we’re not allergic to Silverlight, we’re not allergic to HTML5 – but this [Windows Phone 7 browser] doesn’t support it. We don’t have the extensibility model inside the browser for those pieces and when you see the future I think you’ll understand why.
[...]
“There is no ActiveX plug-in extensibility because of the security model; we’re not going to do that. And with no ActiveX plug-in model, how would we do Flash?”
It’s about stability, security, and battery life, it seems. Pretty much exactly what Apple said about why they don’t support Flash on the iPhone.
WP7 is not even close to being targeted at the corporate world right now. It's targeted at regular consumers.
No side loading or private publishing
barely any support for policies
no device encryption
BlackBerry will continue to dominate the corporate sector until someone else (and I think it will be Microsoft) decides to compete in those aspects.
RustyGrom said:
WP7 is not even close to being targeted at the corporate world right now. It's targeted at regular consumers.
No side loading or private publishing
barely any support for policies
no device encryption
BlackBerry will continue to dominate the corporate sector until someone else (and I think it will be Microsoft) decides to compete in those aspects.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's almost like he's reading this forum.
http://www.winsupersite.com/mobile/wp7_business.asp explains all this at length in case you're interested.
going to agree with rusty here. Bb market is losing more share than windows to iPhone mostly. Wp7 is a consumer device with some nuances of work related material
Sent from my HTC HD2 using XDA App
RustyGrom said:
It's almost like he's reading this forum.
http://www.winsupersite.com/mobile/wp7_business.asp explains all this at length in case you're interested.
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Click to collapse
I actually started to do some searching after and made a post that did not go thru.
I have read posts that claims Windows will support side-loading apps.
Policy support can be fixed.
No device level encryption, but there is data level encryption so data can be protected and provide developers with flexible options.
My whole thing is this: If Windows is indeed looking to be in the same market space as iOS and Android they will get crushed initially. There are on average comparable phones in the Android market to these 9 WP7 devices.
HTC HD7 vs Desire HD - The Desire HD is better in battery life, camera MP and because it is an Android phone it does not have the quirky limitations that WP7. Why would the average consumer pick the HD7 over the Desire HD? The same goes for the HTC 7 Pro vs Desire Z. The most unique phones out of the bunch are the HTC 7 Surround and the Mozart.
I guess I am looking at it from my point of view. WP7 looks to be more business inspired than Android and iOS and I do not like/want a Blackberry Storm (or Torch).
nicksti said:
I actually started to do some searching after and made a post that did not go thru.
I have read posts that claims Windows will support side-loading apps.
Policy support can be fixed.
No device level encryption, but there is data level encryption so data can be protected and provide developers with flexible options.
My whole thing is this: If Windows is indeed looking to be in the same market space as iOS and Android they will get crushed initially. There are on average comparable phones in the Android market to these 9 WP7 devices.
HTC HD7 vs Desire HD - The Desire HD is better in battery life, camera MP and because it is an Android phone it does not have the quirky limitations that WP7. Why would the average consumer pick the HD7 over the Desire HD? The same goes for the HTC 7 Pro vs Desire Z. The most unique phones out of the bunch are the HTC 7 Surround and the Mozart.
I guess I am looking at it from my point of view. WP7 looks to be more business inspired than Android and iOS and I do not like/want a Blackberry Storm (or Torch).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, at first WP7 will probably get crushed but it will gain momentum.
There's plenty of reasons why consumers will pick up WP7 devices. Better media, better UI, easier to use, a guaranteed experience, higher quality apps, etc. There's been many, many threads and posts on this forum debating this topic so I'd suggest you start reading if you want to know the pros/cons.
Yes, there is side loading but it's only for registered developers. Read the article I posted, it does a good job of explaining it. WP7 is in no way targeted at corporations right now. That will come in time but right now it is squarely pointed at media and social networking hungry consumers.
So yes, because it does include exchange policy support as well as office integration, you could make the argument that it's already more corporate friendly than iPhone and Android. But that's not saying much at all. It is still not even on the same playing field as BlackBerry in that space.
I am not sure if the xda review shares my opinion, but look at the last paragraphof this article:
http://www.xda-developers.com/windows-mobile/xda-exclusive-windows-phone-7-review/
WP7 is targeted at dumbphone users who want to switch to a smartphone.
Many of them already have iPhones, but there are still lots of potential customers who haven't switched to a smartphone yet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdpQir1sqiQ
Windows Phone 7 taking a funny shot at Crackberry users.
I think microsoft kept it to a minimum. They released what was ready. It is not like android got flash right away or it had all the features that it has now from the get go. I think for once microsoft did the right thing. They released a good OS and didn't put in stuff that was not ready to be release. Are they probably testing a faster browser? Flash support? may be turn by turn navigation app of their own? Mass storage support? I do hope so for their sake, and I am pretty sure they do have plans for those features. Lately microsoft has been on the right track not releasing software that is broken and works hals assed and needs to be held back. They went with what was ready and held back what is not ready.
crow26 said:
WP7 is targeted at dumbphone users who want to switch to a smartphone.
Many of them already have iPhones, but there are still lots of potential customers who haven't switched to a smartphone yet.
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Great post You just insulted most of the phone users in the world.
agp64 said:
Great post You just insulted most of the phone users in the world.
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He's like a broken record with that crap in many WP7 threads.
nkd said:
I think microsoft kept it to a minimum. They released what was ready. It is not like android got flash right away or it had all the features that it has now from the get go. I think for once microsoft did the right thing. They released a good OS and didn't put in stuff that was not ready to be release. Are they probably testing a faster browser? Flash support? may be turn by turn navigation app of their own? Mass storage support? I do hope so for their sake, and I am pretty sure they do have plans for those features. Lately microsoft has been on the right track not releasing software that is broken and works hals assed and needs to be held back. They went with what was ready and held back what is not ready.
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Click to collapse
Free turn by turn nav is nothing new to MS. They were first to have free TbT on the WinMo 6.5 in Bing search. TbT nav is now a common thing in today's smartphones. For MS to not plan it in from the get go for WP7 is, in my view of it, short sighted.
The TbT incorporated in Bing on my HD2 worked flawlessly. I see nothing broken about software MS already has perfected. My view is MS is just being hard-nosed and far too conservative about features in WP7. It's as if they are daring the market not to support WP7. They are doing the exact opposite of what they need to do to have a mobile OS that will survive in this market. Instead of piling in the features and making a top-notch OS that makes a person say, "WOW! I have to have that!", they are making a first-rate, top-notch OS but skimping on features. This makes a person think, when considering the nature of technology getting better and more feature laden as time passes, that they have to have a WP7 device and then, when they see it doesn't do what they expected because it doesn't have all those features, they become disillusioned and are left with a bummed out feeling toward MS and their shiny, fancy new OS.
Since this is how MS does business....newer tech being LESS feature laden...the next time I buy a car, I will buy a Lexus and expect a model-T
I'm sitting here with the worst case of buyers remorse I've had since I bought a Palm VII. I bought my Surround off-contract, and the store has a no-returns policy for non-contract sales, so this thing is going on Craigslist for a loss tomorrow.
That said, in a lot of ways, my old Bold 9000, BBOS 4.x, circa 2008 had more functionality than this late 2010 WP7 device. I could use it as a storage device, for one thing, and "side load" applications, and more importantly, data (ebooks, music, movies, etc) without needing any sort of sync program. It also had better audio than this Surround, believe it or not.
Croak said:
I'm sitting here with the worst case of buyers remorse I've had since I bought a Palm VII. I bought my Surround off-contract, and the store has a no-returns policy for non-contract sales, so this thing is going on Craigslist for a loss tomorrow.
That said, in a lot of ways, my old Bold 9000, BBOS 4.x, circa 2008 had more functionality than this late 2010 WP7 device. I could use it as a storage device, for one thing, and "side load" applications, and more importantly, data (ebooks, music, movies, etc) without needing any sort of sync program. It also had better audio than this Surround, believe it or not.
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Click to collapse
That is what happens when opt to be a guinea pig. But you can place a reasonable bet that these initial offering issues will be fixed by Q1 2011. The question is are you willing to wait?
And no, I do not believe your Bold 9000 has better audio than the Surround. But I have not heard the Surround yet.
Croak said:
I'm sitting here with the worst case of buyers remorse I've had since I bought a Palm VII. I bought my Surround off-contract, and the store has a no-returns policy for non-contract sales, so this thing is going on Craigslist for a loss tomorrow.
That said, in a lot of ways, my old Bold 9000, BBOS 4.x, circa 2008 had more functionality than this late 2010 WP7 device. I could use it as a storage device, for one thing, and "side load" applications, and more importantly, data (ebooks, music, movies, etc) without needing any sort of sync program. It also had better audio than this Surround, believe it or not.
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Click to collapse
Are you actually deaf or using broken headphones/speakers? The zune player has the best audio playback off any phone period.
I have posted about other complains on the phone in other threads so i will keep this to a basic summary.
Zune file management is easily the best if you pref active sync then there is something wrong with you plus its media management makes even apple look pafetic.
If you want a mass storage device buy a memory stick there like £20 and work better than any phone mp3 player or book reader.
copy and paste and flash are on the way though tbf c/p is overrated and flash is a battery drain.
multitasking is just for show and in the real world only acts to drain battery and slow down performance (everything it would be useful for already do ie you can read texts whilst in other apps)
turn by turn is just a gimic don't know about anyone else but when i get in my car I have my tomtom and don't kill my phone just getting somewhere.
All in all MS has got the point of a phone and have what is needed working let us not forget the bonuses,
Zune rules everything, hubs and tiles are the future, Xbox live is the greatest thing to happen to phones ever and it all works smoth and looks like something from minority report whils tnot sacrifysing anything thats actually useful, just a bunch of crap people like to say they have.
Zune is an awesome player and I can second that.
But Android is much more hackable and versatile. It's like Windows Mobile 6.5 with better interface and looks!
I like how lumpa's argument on essential features is,"Well, you only THINK you need that."
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA App
The slowness of WP continues to disappoint.
In windows mobile we had:
-file system access and USB mass storage (since 2000)
-VPN support (since 2002)
-SIP VOIP (since 2007)
-almost full support for Exchange.
-copy and paste
-multitasking
-directly installable apps
-business-class security features
In 2010 WP7 was released without these features. In 2011 we will have copy and paste and multitasking. This is a diabolically slow rate of progress. Instead, we have play features like twitter support, ability to wave the phone in front of a TV, great.
Businesses are Microsoft's most important and successful market. When will WP support features for businesses and serious users? 2012? 2013?
The slow rate of progress was cemented in Ballmer's speech today. No wonder Nokia's shares continued to fall. Microsoft could have timed basic feature-completeness to coincide with Nokia's entry. Instead, when their phones come out in late 2011, WP7 will still be a toy OS.
Windows mobile was dying. By focusing on consumers Apple was steadily encroaching into the business users. MS had no option but to ditch Windows mobile and go for the consumer market.
digger1985 said:
Windows mobile was dying. By focusing on consumers Apple was steadily encroaching into the business users. MS had no option but to ditch Windows mobile and go for the consumer market.
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Honestly, I think windows mobile just need to be refined. It was lacking stability and user interface and hardware quality. The lack of that is the freezes, slow down both short term and long term and ease of use. The combination of improved hardware and improved UI and consistent use would have gone a long way towards core users since most people assume WP7 is WM7 anyways.
The only guess I can take is that they either couldn't recover from the state the code was in or more likely just went the Iphone route. From what I read WM7 was scrapped and Zune developers took over.
why not ask on social.microsoft.com... that is more direct line than here...
i would imagine that they are going to introduce more than just what they've listed. when you are going to give a general roadmap, you would give the big highlights, not everything.
Windows Mobile is most functional moile OS of all time, even Android cannot beat WM on functionality. However, the sales proved that WM is not welcomed by majority of the market. This is reasonnable.
You are using a cell phone. How many calls do you make everyday? Then how many C&Ps?
Just refining WM might not be good enough to save MS on phones.
“True multitasking” drains battery. And whatever perfection the system itself can reach, its stablity cannot survive badly written apps and unlimited modification.
Also there was a problem for WM app ecosystem. Kind like what we are seeing on Android now, maybe worse...
At least there is Office on WP... Also remote lock?
The OP has a good point, and people are just ragging him without even thinking about it.
The rate of progress is slow. Look at the interview with the product manager. Guy should be fired, since he obviously failed in some aspect of his job in handling WP7 development and updates.
They are developing a phone for consumers, and decided to not release a 1st party WLM client, for example.
2 Months later, after they launch WP7, Microsoft releases a 1st party WLM client for iOS, then they releases OneNote for iOS.
Not only is it a slow rate of progress, but they are constantly *****-slapping their own customers. Why get a WP7 device over an Apple iPhone or an Android Phone + iTouch with Wireless Tethering, if Microsoft will give more attention to iOS than WP7. iOS has gotten more "updates" from the Windows Live team than WP7 since WP7 was launched. I wouldn't be surprised to see a Zune app for Mac and a Zune Pass Quasi-App for iOS in a few months, along with XBox Live goodies... At the moment it doesn't seem like they have a clue what direction they want to move in, or what market they want to target to be honest...
It seems disingenuous to sell WP7 to customers and then tell them to wait a year+ for a decent update while you're banging out iOS apps for iPhone/iTouch users...
Probably would have been better for them to just release a better Zune HD and put all of their mobile support behind iOS, IMO. Could have saved their users money, time, and frustration, and allowed them to get work down faster and better.
well copy/paste, multitasking are both coming...C/P in early march and multi-tasking sometime this year...so it's a start. Plus better skydrive integration for all office docs...
CSMR said:
In windows mobile we had:
-file system access and USB mass storage (since 2000)
-directly installable apps
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Click to collapse
The above will never happen on WP7, real business users don't need file system access or USB mass storage support since they use the cloud - either in a hosted capacity or their own private setup. Either way, they always have access to their documents.
Directly installable apps is not something they need either as they will roll out a set package of apps - just look at corporate laptops today, everything comes preinstalled from the IT dept. Now, sure, if you are talking about business apps for "personal" phones for their employees the IT dept rollout will not work, but MS has said they are working on private marketplace support here - sort of like how you get the Samsung or T-Mobile marketplace categories today.
CSMR said:
-copy and paste
-multitasking
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These are coming thruout the year, but TBH multitasking isn't something used by most WinMo enterprise users. Sure, some do use it for GPS tracking in the background but the vast majority of said users have these devices as a one-trick pony. Take UPS for example, they use them to scan packages, collect signatures and track drivers - that's it. None of which are performed simultaneously.
CSMR said:
-VPN support (since 2002)
-SIP VOIP (since 2007)
-almost full support for Exchange.
-business-class security features
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I do agree with most of these though. Not sure what you mean by business-class security features, but other than that they do need to roll out VPN and enhanced Exchange support. VoIP I'm not so sure about, most business users (even fairly small ones) I've been in contact with already have great plans with their telcos and will route calls thru their local/private exchange.
Omega Ra said:
well copy/paste, multitasking are both coming...C/P in early march and multi-tasking sometime this year...so it's a start. Plus better skydrive integration for all office docs...
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Click to collapse
Why do people keep repeating this 10x in every thread, as if we do NOT know what's coming?
We know it's coming. Why is something like that coming, instead of having been launched to begin with. From what I've seen WP7 was in development for like 2 years, considering they did use CE as a base, it seems a bit retarded that stuff like this had to be added in and they are delivering better apps for iOS than WP7 while WP7 customers stand there with blank faces wondering why they have to wait a year to get iOS features when iOS is getting features they want in weeks/months.
emigrating said:
The above will never happen on WP7, real business users don't need file system access or USB mass storage support since they use the cloud - either in a hosted capacity or their own private setup. Either way, they always have access to their documents.
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Click to collapse
Cloud arguments don't get rid of arguments for common file stores. There are files on the cloud and on local storage. Either way, the same file should be accessible by more than one program. That means that the file is "common", not "isolated".
Isolated storage is a terrible restriction, whether it is local or in the cloud. So terrible that Microsoft had to make limited exemptions for particular sorts of content with special apis to be accessed by more than one program (e.g. photos).
Look you can have office workers who just edit spreadsheets and word documents, maybe this is fine for them. But for serious users of technology this is unacceptable. Just think of the history. You had slide rules and other specific calculating devices devices. Then Charles Babbage develops a mechanical computer which is actually Turing complete, then Turing proves that there is this type of computer that can do anything that is computable, then people built these things, and now we are back with - as long as a device can do x,y,z popular tasks we are OK. End rant.
Directly installable apps... MS has said they are working on private marketplace support here - sort of like how you get the Samsung or T-Mobile marketplace categories today.
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OK let me continue the rant a little. Alan Turing did not envisage a system where for an algorithm to succeed it has to first pass the approval of human censors. It takes the undecidability problem a little too far, don't you think?
Anyway, any improvement is good but what is the timeframe? At some point this will happen, unless the public overtures to homebrew hackers were a mistake.
VoIP I'm not so sure about, most business users (even fairly small ones) I've been in contact with already have great plans with their telcos and will route calls thru their local/private exchange.
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Click to collapse
You can work your way around it but nothing is better than a native solution.
Anyway, yes this stuff is important to businesses, some more than others, but the rest are important to power users, anyone who wants to use the device as more than a feature phone, who is not Mr. Average and at some point may want to do something that Mr. Average does not do. Mr. Average may have money on average, and power in democracies, but people who are not Mr. Average are also important, in fact far more so for the world.
I agree with all your points.
It's fine not to have the features at launch but they must add them quickly. The argument that some like to use that WP7 is new & to just be patient is wearing thin. WP7 is competing with the IPhone & Android of today not of yesterday, so why should customers bother waiting too long for features already available on competing products? The UI is great but not spectacularly better IMO.
I want WP7 to succeed but the clock is ticking & MS only has a limited amount of time to make it a hit.
N8ter said:
The OP has a good point, and people are just ragging him without even thinking about it.
The rate of progress is slow. Look at the interview with the product manager. Guy should be fired, since he obviously failed in some aspect of his job in handling WP7 development and updates.
They are developing a phone for consumers, and decided to not release a 1st party WLM client, for example.
2 Months later, after they launch WP7, Microsoft releases a 1st party WLM client for iOS, then they releases OneNote for iOS.
Not only is it a slow rate of progress, but they are constantly *****-slapping their own customers. Why get a WP7 device over an Apple iPhone or an Android Phone + iTouch with Wireless Tethering, if Microsoft will give more attention to iOS than WP7. iOS has gotten more "updates" from the Windows Live team than WP7 since WP7 was launched. I wouldn't be surprised to see a Zune app for Mac and a Zune Pass Quasi-App for iOS in a few months, along with XBox Live goodies... At the moment it doesn't seem like they have a clue what direction they want to move in, or what market they want to target to be honest...
It seems disingenuous to sell WP7 to customers and then tell them to wait a year+ for a decent update while you're banging out iOS apps for iPhone/iTouch users...
Probably would have been better for them to just release a better Zune HD and put all of their mobile support behind iOS, IMO. Could have saved their users money, time, and frustration, and allowed them to get work down faster and better.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
N8ter said:
Why do people keep repeating this 10x in every thread, as if we do NOT know what's coming?
We know it's coming. Why is something like that coming, instead of having been launched to begin with. From what I've seen WP7 was in development for like 2 years, considering they did use CE as a base, it seems a bit retarded that stuff like this had to be added in and they are delivering better apps for iOS than WP7 while WP7 customers stand there with blank faces wondering why they have to wait a year to get iOS features when iOS is getting features they want in weeks/months.
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Click to collapse
and why do you have to keep repeating post after post that wp7 should have included c/p , this and that blah blah blah? I know why you want c/p so that you dont have to right the same thing over and over again lols.....
leowp7 said:
and why do you have to keep repeating post after post that wp7 should have included c/p , this and that blah blah blah? I know why you want c/p so that you dont have to right the same thing over and over again lols.....
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An you still have nothing of value to add to the discussion. Life must hate you.
Here's a razor. You know what to do with it
CSMR said:
Cloud arguments don't get rid of arguments for common file stores. There are files on the cloud and on local storage. Either way, the same file should be accessible by more than one program. That means that the file is "common", not "isolated".
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Click to collapse
Agreed - but that's a whole different can of worms. What I was commenting on was getting content onto your phone in the first place. I fully agree there should be a shared store accessible by any installed application.
CSMR said:
You can work your way around it but nothing is better than a native solution.
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Click to collapse
Again, I agree. But in my experience businesses (at least here) have free connectivity between their mobile devices and their offices. More and more these days there are no landlines available at all, everyone uses mobile which is routed thru a local (ie. corporate) switch.
CSMR said:
Anyway, yes this stuff is important to businesses, some more than others, but the rest are important to power users, anyone who wants to use the device as more than a feature phone, who is not Mr. Average and at some point may want to do something that Mr. Average does not do. Mr. Average may have money on average, and power in democracies, but people who are not Mr. Average are also important, in fact far more so for the world.
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Click to collapse
This is where we don't agree
Power-users - or early-adopters; they are generally the same people - are not generating [direct] revenue and as such their usage patterns are not of great importance initially. What they do do is drive demand for these features down to an average level, so at some point it will become mainstream, but not today.
N8ter said:
An you still have nothing of value to add to the discussion. Life must hate you.
Here's a razor. You know what to do with it
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thats so uncalled for.....
leowp7 said:
thats so uncalled for.....
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I deal with "uncalled for" things thrown at me on this forum all the time. I'm not crying about it. I'd edit it out, but since you quoted it instead of PMing me it's not worth it.
Report it to a moderator. I'll eat my infraction if they feel they need to issue one. /shruggery/
CSMR said:
The slowness of WP continues to disappoint.
In windows mobile we had:
-file system access and USB mass storage (since 2000)
-VPN support (since 2002)
-SIP VOIP (since 2007)
-almost full support for Exchange.
-copy and paste
-multitasking
-directly installable apps
-business-class security features
In 2010 WP7 was released without these features. In 2011 we will have copy and paste and multitasking. This is a diabolically slow rate of progress. Instead, we have play features like twitter support, ability to wave the phone in front of a TV, great.
Businesses are Microsoft's most important and successful market. When will WP support features for businesses and serious users? 2012? 2013?
The slow rate of progress was cemented in Ballmer's speech today. No wonder Nokia's shares continued to fall. Microsoft could have timed basic feature-completeness to coincide with Nokia's entry. Instead, when their phones come out in late 2011, WP7 will still be a toy OS.
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I have not read the following posts so forgive me if this point has been made but this sort of thread gripes me so so bad.
WINDOWS PHONE IS NOT, I REPEAT NOT! WINDOWS MOBILE
It is aimed at general consumers more than business much like the iphone. Windows Mobile will have a new version out some point this year as it is not windows phone and is still being developed.
Please for gods sake keep this whole delusion that WP7 is anything to do with WM6.5 out of your heads.
lumpaywk said:
I have not read the following posts so forgive me if this point has been made but this sort of thread gripes me so so bad.
WINDOWS PHONE IS NOT, I REPEAT NOT! WINDOWS MOBILE
It is aimed at general consumers more than business much like the iphone. Windows Mobile will have a new version out some point this year as it is not windows phone and is still being developed.
Please for gods sake keep this whole delusion that WP7 is anything to do with WM6.5 out of your heads.
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Click to collapse
It's no delusion that 6.5 is far superior to WP7, as of now.
amtrakcn said:
Windows Mobile is most functional moile OS of all time, even Android cannot beat WM on functionality. However, the sales proved that WM is not welcomed by majority of the market. This is reasonnable.
You are using a cell phone. How many calls do you make everyday? Then how many C&Ps?
Just refining WM might not be good enough to save MS on phones.
“True multitasking” drains battery. And whatever perfection the system itself can reach, its stablity cannot survive badly written apps and unlimited modification.
Also there was a problem for WM app ecosystem. Kind like what we are seeing on Android now, maybe worse...
At least there is Office on WP... Also remote lock?
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what functionality are you refering to that every other phone OS hasn't had for 2plus years ?
I make/receive on average 1 phone call a day, while I copy/paste at least 20 times a day.
N8ter said:
I deal with "uncalled for" things thrown at me on this forum all the time. I'm not crying about it. I'd edit it out, but since you quoted it instead of PMing me it's not worth it.
Report it to a moderator. I'll eat my infraction if they feel they need to issue one. /shruggery/
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Click to collapse
1. im not crying about anything, just stating the obvious
2. I feel anyone should be allowed to say what they think, so are you, but why the need for the bully factor?