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Is winmo7 gonna be the end of winmo development here at xda? It's totally new, and its gonna be really hard to port it to existing winmo phones, and its a lot more locked down...
I was wondering the same thing after watching the press event video, which is why I came here to see reaction.
As long as there is a registry it hackable... I feel sorry for HTC or cannot customise their phones to have a unique selling point over other OEM's
It seems MS have built it for the sole purpose of cracking the "consumer" market. Looks incredibly pretty and i'm sure it will "work", however, whether it will be as appealing to the xda-dev community is another question!! A bit too early to say it's the end, but just from viewing the promotional videos, I can see my love for Android growing further!!
windows phone 7 has got me quite excited.. looking fwd to use it come december 2010.
I think you're right that it's just too early to tell. I hope you're right about the registry/hackable comment, though.
I am wondering would Microsoft be so stupid to create almost a totally new OS. If they do, i believe there will some sort of migrator to migrate apps to the new os. However i am seriously disappointed if they decide to remove mutiltask.
6.5.3 will remain alive and well for enterprise and developing markets, so even if we can't port winmo 7 there will still be updates to 6.5. Either way, MS has pretty much destroyed new app development for 6.5, as many of the major players will probably wait to develop exclusively for 7. I'm definately excited about 7 though; in the meantime it looks like android will be your friend if your looking for apps.
I think it will be a new beginning. However, the new SDK will likely be based on WPF or Silverlight, so the .NET knowledge of the current developers can be applied (however, WPF has IMHO a steep learning curve) and some code can be transferred. Game development will likely be based on XNA (you can already create Zune XNA games).
The big question for me is: Is publishing/installation of new applications as easy as it is currently the case? The worst case scenario would be a mandatory marketplace and you have to pay a fee to get your application added. However, I think that Microsoft will be going a developer-friendly way, because the third party applications will make or brake the OS.
The worst case scenario would be a mandatory marketplace and you have to pay a fee to get your application added.
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That's exactly what's happening...
i just hope, that the multi billion dollar companies, make everything in the phone work the way it has to, and not wait till some regular people on this forum turn the phone into a good device.. seriously, i buy a WM knowing that its crap, just cause i know that here on XDA i can fix it and make it how i want it...
I just hope m$ has not gone the apple way blocking all development !
that will be a really really sad day on XDA.
Too early to say.
First few leaks should arrive some months hence.
irdawood said:
As long as there is a registry it hackable... I feel sorry for HTC or cannot customise their phones to have a unique selling point over other OEM's
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think you didn't paid attention to what was said in the conference.
They said, on top OEM's can customize it to add their experience to it. So HTC and other can customize it, but not to the extend of WM 6.5's case. That's because to give a consistent experience to us ( users ).
Please don't get into conclusion's without understanding what was said.
well here's a video
http://www.engadget.com/2010/02/15/windows-phone-7-series-hands-on-and-impressions/
yerand said:
Is winmo7 gonna be the end of winmo development here at xda? It's totally new, and its gonna be really hard to port it to existing winmo phones, and its a lot more locked down...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
no dev's have even gotten their hands on this yet. How the heck would you know what's possible with is and what's not?
Well, it is new, Microsoft stated that it has more restrictions, and its pretty much a brand new os, because microsoft also stated that its built from the ground up, therefore its like porting android to a winmo phone. It has very little of its older winmo roots.
ibsa03 said:
i just hope, that the multi billion dollar companies, make everything in the phone work the way it has to, and not wait till some regular people on this forum turn the phone into a good device.. seriously, i buy a WM knowing that its crap, just cause i know that here on XDA i can fix it and make it how i want it...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I totally agree with u the reason i bought my htc fuze and sold my nokia phone was because i love how cuztomizeable wm is and even if they become like apple there is always android
But wasnt there supposed to be an OEM version of Windows Mobile 7 that could be customized by third party's such as HTC? From what I saw of the press coverage, we were just seeing the "interface" much like titanium and Touchflo.....but who knows....
semmtexx said:
no dev's have even gotten their hands on this yet. How the heck would you know what's possible with is and what's not?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It may well be that it is the most easy to crack ever, However, i dobt that
@Microsoft, WHY!!!???! if i wanted an consumer OS, i would of purchased an iBrick
Why not kill 6.6, make 6.9 with the winmo 7 kernal and code in some .NET support and let HTC work it's magic
Badwolve1
for a long time, the older phones (wizard old) have been able to run the newest versions (6.5.3). i think this is gonna end development on those old phones. hopefully we will get it to run on the new phones like the hd2
face it, low level apis and languages are for hobbyists now adays. programming languages like C# are huge. .Net makes it so easy and quick to write applications. that's what professionals use. the amount of applications released will be explosive. go ahead, go to android, it's crappy java, and if you use the native development kit,it compiles against the old instruction set. android has hardly even made a dent in the market. it will never be mainstream,just like linux. whine all you want, but microsoft got a bad rap because of crappy coders who crashed the os all the time. it is no longer a hobbyist OS but a consumer OS.
no matter how easy C# is and everything but sometimes you still need access to low level functionality. I agree it's a good idea to recommend modern languages for development on WP7 or any future OS but I don't think it's alright to completely deny the privileged mode APIs, like they were previously called on WM. It's alright if you need to get special certificates if you want to do such risky things (you need that already on WM6) but it still should be possible after all.
I agree about the Android part of your post. On this board it seems to get hyped quited a lot but in real life sales are not really that groundbreaking like everyone thinks. WM is still a lot stronger. Still, I don't even see any advantages you'd get with a switch to Android!
I'm a .net dev but there's instances where you need the unmanaged APIs to do things. There's lots of gaps in the .net compact framework.
I got a nexus one for me and my wife. I was a WM fanboy but I have to say I will never use a WM device again. I have a zune hd and it sucks at everything. The new browser is worse then WM 6.5. I think WM7 is gonna fail big time. What are you talking about that android is not getting market share? Android will gain 20% more market share in two years.
http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20100209-717900.html
http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/android_market_share_doubles_will_overtake_palm_soon.php
http://phandroid.com/2009/11/15/android-stealing-symbian-winmo-market-share/
shep211 said:
I got a nexus one for me and my wife. I was a WM fanboy but I have to say I will never use a WM device again. I have a zune hd and it sucks at everything. The new browser is worse then WM 6.5. I think WM7 is gonna fail big time. What are you talking about that android is not getting market share? Android will gain 20% more market share in two years.
http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20100209-717900.html
http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/android_market_share_doubles_will_overtake_palm_soon.php
http://phandroid.com/2009/11/15/android-stealing-symbian-winmo-market-share/
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Click to collapse
Noone knows what's going to happen in two years. That prediction was also made before WP7 was announced so it's somewhat meaningless now. Who said the browser is the same one that's in the ZuneHD? The web browser was an afterthought for the ZuneHD and it's a prime feature of WP7. I expect it to be much improved.
RustyGrom said:
Noone knows what's going to happen in two years. That prediction was also made before WP7 was announced so it's somewhat meaningless now. Who said the browser is the same one that's in the ZuneHD? The web browser was an afterthought for the ZuneHD and it's a prime feature of WP7. I expect it to be much improved.
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I have seen all the wm7 videos and its the same os. They said WM7 would not be based off of the zune hd os but it is. Watch the zune hd videos then WM7 videos. Same os and same browser. They are just adding phone support. I preordered my zune hd and was every unhappy with it. Nothing new or better then ipod. The browser has to be the worst browsing experience ever. Cant download podcast from the phone. You have to dock it and load the podcast on the phone. Cant listen to music without headphones. Tons and tons of stuff that makes you think WTF.
Interesting considering the browser IS different, and you other complaints wont be there on a phone.
Its not the same OS, its just they standardizing there UIs.
RAMMANN said:
no matter how easy C# is and everything but sometimes you still need access to low level functionality. I agree it's a good idea to recommend modern languages for development on WP7 or any future OS but I don't think it's alright to completely deny the privileged mode APIs, like they were previously called on WM. It's alright if you need to get special certificates if you want to do such risky things (you need that already on WM6) but it still should be possible after all.
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RustyGrom said:
I'm a .net dev but there's instances where you need the unmanaged APIs to do things. There's lots of gaps in the .net compact framework.
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Click to collapse
yes i know we need certain APIs to do certain things,but nobody knows yet what the new framework will be like. who's to say what is limited and what isn't when we don't have any of this info yet.
I completely agree with o2neouzr. Whay are people whining about it when they have no idea what will and won't be included in .NET CF 4?
I've only done a small amount of phone development on WM6 and C# has been fine. My app responds to missed calls and texts when I'm on the motorbike. I recently discussed porting it to the iPhone with a friend. It turns out even really basic stuff like sending a text, knowing if you've missed a call, running with the screen off are all impossible on the iPhone - even with approval from Apple. I reckon we'll be allowed to do a reasonable amount. It'll still be better than the crappy iPhone.
Think of an Operating System like the rule of law in a country; now there is a rumor that the supreme leaders decide to enforce that the only dress code allowed is T-Shirt, of course, the rationals in breadth and depth as in any totalitarian country is only known to the supreme leaders.
"Death to fashion designers!" yelled the fanatics.
"They can't see the simplicity of T-Shirt!" chimed the supporters.
" It is easy to make!!" cried the guards.
" It takes only a minute to paint!!!" said the propagandist.
" It is ready for mass market!!!!" snapped the enforcers to anyone who dare to challenge the new establishment.
"Burn in hell for daring to wear any other dress! T-Shirt is the future! Any one wearing dress is living in the stone age !"
Of course it is hard for concern citizens like we, fashion designers - native developers, to have a decent conversation with this group of people. How can words explain the beauty of our love ones (customers), walking through the crowds of T-Shirts --- in designers' dress. How can we explain the search of excellence, as the way of life, to so many of us, perfecting the art, year after year, to bring out the best of us for the world to see the beauty of free expression.
It is not like that we can't make T-Shirt, it is no-brainer for most of us. The beauty of simplicity is simple but not simpler. A native developers try to achieve simplicity without making things simpler.
Fred23 said:
I completely agree with o2neouzr. Whay are people whining about it when they have no idea what will and won't be included in .NET CF 4?
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It's not really about having the limited stuff of .NET CF in mind and doing PInvoke for really standard issues. It's about the whole architecture of the runtime. can you do DLL injection or hook into another process with .NET? Not at all. DLLs don't even exist there. You understand... we need the native API if we want to do all the funny things. Recent example: On the Omnia2 there's the taskmon service running which is closing applications if you open more than 3 or 4 (!!!!). chainfire guy wrote a tool that injects into the service to stop this nonsense. More examples are the File explorer extensions, Quick menu, XTask etc. You don't need this stuff? Fine! Go get an iphone!
RAMMANN said:
It's not really about having the limited stuff of .NET CF in mind and doing PInvoke for really standard issues. It's about the whole architecture of the runtime. can you do DLL injection or hook into another process with .NET? Not at all. DLLs don't even exist there. You understand... we need the native API if we want to do all the funny things. Recent example: On the Omnia2 there's the taskmon service running which is closing applications if you open more than 3 or 4 (!!!!). chainfire guy wrote a tool that injects into the service to stop this nonsense. More examples are the File explorer extensions, Quick menu, XTask etc. You don't need this stuff? Fine! Go get an iphone!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ummmmmmmmmm DLLs do exist in .net. In fact, pretty much the entire .net framework is just a collection of DLLs. Have you ever even written a .net app or any software at all for that matter? It seems your hatred is extremely unfounded.
There likely won't be a file explorer to extend and all of the other things you list get into modifying the UI so those won't be allowed either. They're ugly hacks that shouldn't be needed on any platform. Yea, WinMo needed them to cover up it's many flaws.
You don't need native APIs to do those things necessarily. There just needs to be managed APIs to do them. They won't be allowing it though so it's a moot point.
If you want to completely replace the UI, go get an Anroid phone!
There's a middle ground that they need to find. I feel that's what they're shooting for but it doesn't sound like they're gonna hit it. I'm expecting only a subset of .net CF as even that would allow you to do 'too much' in their mind.
alright I admit I have written bull****. of course there are DLLs in .NET but I rather mean they are handled little different than usual DLLs. So I thought common sense is you call them assemblies instead of DLLs. oh! And yes I have written Windows applications in .NET but always refrained from using it on WM due to performance issues and because it's so incomplete and for all the interesting stuff you have to use PInvoke anyway. Also if you at least had checked the link in my signature before judging then you would have seen that I'm actually writing software for WM. besides that, it's even my daily job to write software for Windows/WM for like... ahm... 12 years now.
RustyGrom said:
There likely won't be a file explorer to extend and all of the other things you list get into modifying the UI so those won't be allowed either. They're ugly hacks that shouldn't be needed on any platform. Yea, WinMo needed them to cover up it's many flaws.
You don't need native APIs to do those things necessarily. There just needs to be managed APIs to do them. They won't be allowing it though so it's a moot point.
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Click to collapse
That's the point actually. What I love about WM is that you can easily (or not so easy) hack your way through it and if that's not allowed anymore in a new revision then a lot of fun is taken for me and I guess for "a few more folks" here on XDA. WM like it is with 6.5.x is REALLY comfortable with me and that's no joke! I'm trying to customize and modify it because it's a lot of fun to do so, not because the OS is so bad. Currently I'm running 6.5.x with Sense 2.5 on my Topaz and everything is running really smooth and responsive and I can't complain at all!!
RustyGrom said:
If you want to completely replace the UI, go get an Anroid phone!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I hate Android! I don't really want to code in Java. And their native API is a joke isn't it? If WP7 isn't suitable anymore (and right now we don't really know for sure) then I have to keep going with the old **** aka WM 6.5.x until I'm old and grey. why should I change OS if there's nothing that matches the customization possibilites of our present OS?
I could understand the frustration for not having full access to native API, full multitasking, etc.
It will be no joy ... no fun ... especially when you simply cannot customize the UI "the way you want" (You can still customize the WP7 start screen).
You cannot express your full creativity.
That is really valid concern.
But ....................................
Could this "new situation of WP7" trigger another kind of creativity?
To the extreme, who would think creating fart application? I know, probably this is a bad example of creativity, but still ... it is kind of creativity.
My point, in whatever situation, people will simply adapt and certain people will excel with their creativity!
Could that be YOU?
RAMMANN said:
I hate Android! I don't really want to code in Java. And their native API is a joke isn't it? If WP7 isn't suitable anymore (and right now we don't really know for sure) then I have to keep going with the old **** aka WM 6.5.x until I'm old and grey. why should I change OS if there's nothing that matches the customization possibilites of our present OS?
Click to expand...
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RAMMANN said:
If WP7 isn't suitable anymore (and right now we don't really know for sure) then I have to keep going with the old **** aka WM 6.5.x until I'm old and grey. why should I change OS if there's nothing that matches the customization possibilites of our present OS?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If I understand this Charlie Kindel (who supposedly is the guy in charge of all this API/SDK stuff), it's not their intention to lock the "fun stuff" out indefinitely. What he's saying is more in the lines of "we want a consistent and logical environment/ecosystem for developers and users, and in order to achieve that, we need to change from the "let's push everything we have out the door" mentality towards "let's make it really good", and this requires serious focused step-by-step approach". They want to start with "consumer application" and hobbyist developers (the latter probably means fart app makers and such), which is understandable because they want to build consumer appeal first. Other categories of developers will be addressed after that.
So, while I don't expect much "fun" you're talking about in WP7, I think this will evolve over time. It's unfortunate that we're not getting things to play with right now, but maybe you won't need to wait until you are old and grey haired. And also maybe we'll really get great APIs/SDK, which will be more useful, consistent and complete than the current incompletely and sometimes incredibly poorly documented mess. Just trying to be positive here.
RAMMANN said:
That's the point actually. What I love about WM is that you can easily (or not so easy) hack your way through it and if that's not allowed anymore in a new revision then a lot of fun is taken for me and I guess for "a few more folks" here on XDA. WM like it is with 6.5.x is REALLY comfortable with me and that's no joke! I'm trying to customize and modify it because it's a lot of fun to do so, not because the OS is so bad. Currently I'm running 6.5.x with Sense 2.5 on my Topaz and everything is running really smooth and responsive and I can't complain at all!!
I hate Android! I don't really want to code in Java. And their native API is a joke isn't it? If WP7 isn't suitable anymore (and right now we don't really know for sure) then I have to keep going with the old **** aka WM 6.5.x until I'm old and grey. why should I change OS if there's nothing that matches the customization possibilites of our present OS?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree with you. Many people hate WM6.5, I like it. I enjoy the customizability as many others on here do. However, I would also enjoy 'retiring' from the need to do that. It's kind of annoying knowing that the first thing I have to do when I get a new phone is go home and HardSPL it and flash a new ROM. I've heard some of the newer devices are much better out the door (HD2 for example) but haven't seen this for myself.
I don't think the members of this forum are part of Microsoft's target audience for end users. Devs, yea, but not end users. They are shooting for people disenchanted with their iPhone, Android, and more importantly the other 75% of the cell phone market that's still using "feature phones" (aka dumb phones).
It definitely looks like MS is going to lock down much more than WM6.5. Will we still be cooking custom roms? My guess is yes. But your common user will have more restrictions on what apps can and can't do.
I look at this as a new challenge more than anything else.
vangrieg said:
If I understand this Charlie Kindel (who supposedly is the guy in charge of all this API/SDK stuff), it's not their intention to lock the "fun stuff" out indefinitely. What he's saying is more in the lines of "we want a consistent and logical environment/ecosystem for developers and users, and in order to achieve that, we need to change from the "let's push everything we have out the door" mentality towards "let's make it really good", and this requires serious focused step-by-step approach". They want to start with "consumer application" and hobbyist developers (the latter probably means fart app makers and such), which is understandable because they want to build consumer appeal first. Other categories of developers will be addressed after that.
So, while I don't expect much "fun" you're talking about in WP7, I think this will evolve over time. It's unfortunate that we're not getting things to play with right now, but maybe you won't need to wait until you are old and grey haired. And also maybe we'll really get great APIs/SDK, which will be more useful, consistent and complete than the current incompletely and sometimes incredibly poorly documented mess. Just trying to be positive here.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's a good way to look at it. I just hope that they don't get too restrictive from the start. I think the .net CF would be a good starting point that they should add onto but it almost sounds like they're only picking and choosing pieces from it. If we've got the whole .net CF (maybe minus a few things they don't want us doing) I would be fine with that.
RustyGrom said:
I agree with you. Many people hate WM6.5, I like it. I enjoy the customizability as many others on here do. However, I would also enjoy 'retiring' from the need to do that. It's kind of annoying knowing that the first thing I have to do when I get a new phone is go home and HardSPL it and flash a new ROM. I've heard some of the newer devices are much better out the door (HD2 for example) but haven't seen this for myself.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have used my Topaz with the 6.1 factory ROM for at least 2-3 months. At this time I couldn't complain. I didn't face any issues. I only started to flash new ROMs when 6.5 and later issues were available...
About retiring... I don't think you will. The need to immediately flash a new WP7 device is always given. Just imagine you got a new phone from a Telecom contract and you got all your hubs in pink...
RustyGrom said:
I think the .net CF would be a good starting point that they should add onto but it almost sounds like they're only picking and choosing pieces from it. If we've got the whole .net CF (maybe minus a few things they don't want us doing) I would be fine with that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm not much a developer (it's not my profession, I just did a couple of things for fun), but, apart from performance issues which can more or less be improved in the new OS, I've seen two types of limitations with .Net CF on WM 6.x: it's been nearly impossible to make nice UI without awful performance, and there are big gaps in terms of accessing "low-level" and sometimes not so low-level stuff and hence need for PInvoke.
The first issue will probably be addressed by Silverlight and, possibly, better built-in UI controls and such. The second will probably be partly addressed by OS-level push, "live feed" APIs, which sometimes might help overcome the limitations of SNAPI. The obvious question marks are things like non-SNAPI event handling such as hardware key processing, power management, device IO etc. Theoretically, this could be done in an environment such as .Net, why not, but not in its current incarnation of CF 3.5. If they added functionality to .Net, it could make life easier for devs.
Obviously though, some things just aren't realistic in managed code, so no alternative browsers/video players for us apart from shells over MS engines (which means no .mkv support if it's not built into the OS already). It could be possible, though, if they're serious in trying to do things right this time, that they want to create those APIs/SDK together with devs. Say, it would be an awesome, albeit slow, path to sit down with CoreCodec and build a piece of the SDK on a specific case, understanding and overcoming the challenges step by step. Don't know if we can hope to get that kind of attitude though...
It's good to use .NET languages, but it is limited, at least on CompactFramework, so it's impossible to use ONLY .NET: you have to use unmanaged code for creating some things that .NET doesn't allow to.
vangrieg said:
I'm not much a developer (it's not my profession, I just did a couple of things for fun), but, apart from performance issues which can more or less be improved in the new OS, I've seen two types of limitations with .Net CF on WM 6.x: it's been nearly impossible to make nice UI without awful performance, and there are big gaps in terms of accessing "low-level" and sometimes not so low-level stuff and hence need for PInvoke.
The first issue will probably be addressed by Silverlight and, possibly, better built-in UI controls and such. The second will probably be partly addressed by OS-level push, "live feed" APIs, which sometimes might help overcome the limitations of SNAPI. The obvious question marks are things like non-SNAPI event handling such as hardware key processing, power management, device IO etc. Theoretically, this could be done in an environment such as .Net, why not, but not in its current incarnation of CF 3.5. If they added functionality to .Net, it could make life easier for devs.
Obviously though, some things just aren't realistic in managed code, so no alternative browsers/video players for us apart from shells over MS engines (which means no .mkv support if it's not built into the OS already). It could be possible, though, if they're serious in trying to do things right this time, that they want to create those APIs/SDK together with devs. Say, it would be an awesome, albeit slow, path to sit down with CoreCodec and build a piece of the SDK on a specific case, understanding and overcoming the challenges step by step. Don't know if we can hope to get that kind of attitude though...
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Click to collapse
Yup. I'm expecting a 'revolution' of sorts in the UI standpoint. Like I've stated previously, it sucks trying to make a good, finger-friendly UI. XNA will make game/3d creation a breeze. Silverlight will be awesome for more traditional style UIs. I'm just wondering how high level and low level they'll get. For example, if I wanted to make an app that looked exactly like the main UI of the phone would I be able to just create a panel object, give it the text for the title, text and controls on that panel, and it will take care of the placement, input control, etc? Or what if I want to go the opposite route and create a UI of my own, will I be able to do that? I'm expecting things like button inputs to be provided. It would be crazy for them not to. That's part of the benefit of standardizing the buttons, they can easily bubble those up to devs.
The leaked docs show that native APIs and unmanaged code will be available to an extent but only to OEMs and carriers. I'm sure if people make enough noise they'll back down and approve apps that make use of that for others as well if they show the need. Microsoft's corporate culture traditionally hasn't been as 'religious' as Apple's and is more willing to back down on things if pushed.
Hi Everyone,
I'm very worried about all I've eared recently on coming WM7
No cut/paste
No multitasking
No Storage card management
And a MarketPlace build on the Itunes-Jail-Model...
So my question is :
Won't we do something to stop that ?
Would someone start a petition saying that if Microsoft keep going this way, we'll all move to Android !
Maybe I'm just dreaming, but if XDA display this petition everywhere, we might grow fast and make some noise. It's not too late.
What do you think ?
from what I heard everyone at MIX10 loved WP7, as the majority of people will. We are just bunch of freaks. Even XDA camp is split up, at least half of people dig it as well.
It is high time WinMobile moved forward. Donno if Windows Phone 7 is the way to go, but I think the WM interface never really worked when touch screens came in.
As for opening it up, well I agree MS should make it as easy as possible for people to develop for free. Unfortunately it probably won't be, at least for a good while yet which is huge shame.
MS will want to make money from it, and gain market share and for now that means locked down with Apps Store route. Hopefully they will open it up for free developers in time or they will never gain anything over the options.
Won't we do something to stop that ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Don't you think they WANT us to TALK about it, until REAL thing will come out...
It looks like weird advert campaign.
But funny, that people who bought their HD2 were simply fooled.
Few millions there, another there...pure FUN.
Honestly, I'd say there's roughly zero chance of XDA or anyone else being able to change Microsoft's mind on these issues prior to WP7 launch. They thought long and hard about all these things and know some of the decisions will make a certain amount of developers and tweakers unhappy, but really they're focused on creating a revolutionary UX, and to do so they need to control certain things more than before. If you've seen the demo apps from MIX hopefully most will agree it's worthwhile pain for the expected gain.
Microsoft isn't turning it's back on the WM dev community though - the tools for developing on WP7 are excellent (so long as you're already doing managed code at least), and now all free. It's impressive the things you can do with Silverlight/XNA/Blend on WP7.
Richard
Man, i much more worrying about that there isn't a release for the Leo, because it has too much buttons (what an idiot reason!!!!). I bought my Leo for wm7. I veryvery disappointed in microsoft. I going to move to Android!
Man, i much more worrying about that there isn't a release for the Leo, because it has too much buttons (what an idiot reason!!!!).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
..because this is not a reason.
This is game about getting attention.
Very, very strange way of advertising, to be honest.
They are sure, that people will buy ANOTHER 500+$ device just to get their feeble bs. Ridiculous.
(personal opinion).
-------------
I bought my Leo for wm7.
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Click to collapse
Name it, lol. This is exactly same thing as Kaiser and its drivers(if there is someone who remember these times - users were told they will get DRIVERS...yeah, right - people did not learn, i assume).
I am not against progress - I am against stupidity and fooling people.
g'night.
pupakota said:
I am not against progress - I am against stupidity and fooling people.
g'night.
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Well I agree, there is so much available which is good for wm5, wm6 etc but wp7 with new start should open up even more possibility of graphically rich and media centred experience. In theory that is.
Look at the development between wm5 and wm6, hardly anything in how long? Hopefully it will be updating interfaces only for wm7, spb and htc have both realised that people want more eye candy than wm could provide.
I love windows mobile but I like the iPhone package, only because it appears to work. But I wouldn't buy an iPhone because there might be an app for everything, but with wm there's a free app for everything. (Although not when big companies forget about wm!)
If WP7 is free to develop on, using MS tools, then fingers crossed the draw of fast fancy graphics and features will bring back developers from iPhone only apps. No doubt MS will extract their pound of flesh first but hopefully it won't end up locked down like the iPhone.
Then again, there may only be fancy graphics in WP7 and no substance or power left for anything else, but without WP7 don't you think WM would end up being shelved (and where would the little apps go then? somebody think of the apps). Perhaps Android is the future!
Also, why do they hate hardware buttons, give me a D-pad back please! If want to flick my fingers around I'd take up tiddlywinks.
im sure WP7 will be quite a success, you need to remember that most phone users are not enthusiasts like us. What the general public want and what we want are very different criteria. See how popular Iphone is!
I see no problem with WP7 not having
No cut/paste
No multitasking
No Storage card management
there is already WM 6.5 that does have these things and there is no wait until its released because we already have it.
Maybe in the future when no more WM 6 devices are produced we will have a tough choice on picking a new device, or maybe people will cook 6.5 for the WP7 handsets (upgrade with older version ha ha)
There is nothing we can do. Even if whole xda makes petition or something, who cares about some stupid forum where geeks want do to something?
Also, why do they hate hardware buttons, give me a D-pad back please! If want to flick my fingers around I'd take up tiddlywinks.
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Couldn't agree more. Im suprised that they allow QWERTY.
Also where is competition here? What can phone vendors do to make their phone better? Most stuff is already standarized, so there will be bunch of same devices on market.
Personally I think they're taking all of the flexibility and breadth of applications away from the platform and moving towards the pointless "There's a crApp for that" mentality.
I won't be looking for a phone until towards the end of the year, I'll be taking a serious look at Android and WebOS at that time I believe.
MS won't change it's mind no matter what, they are trying the Apple approach, at least we still have Android, too bad cuz I loved WM...
The best petition is not buying wp7. Believe me..they will get that message real quick. It's not the end of the world. MS forgot that there'r other platform out there (Android).
dicast said:
The best petition is not buying wp7. Believe me..they will get that message real quick. It's not the end of the world. MS forgot that there'r other platform out there (Android).
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well if they do mess up wm, then think what the combined effort could do with Android instead!
Seems everything nowadays (Not just Windows Mobile) is all about moving towards "locking things down", taking away the control from the regular people ala iphone style... and people seems to just accept it with a smile on their lips.
Companies are trying to control everything their employies (correct english?) do, trying to prevent them to use facebook at work and logs everything they do online... Seriously, what the f^** is going on??? Why not implement internet filters all over the world aswell? Buy the technology from China!
Soon when microsoft have killed windows mobile, android will be the only option for me at least...
Maybe Windows Phone series 7 or whatever they call it will be a huge success, but it's not windows mobile anymore, ok it's finger friendly but the OS will be as restricted as China itself. WM the way we like it will soon be history...
I will enjoy the freedom while it lasts and stick to current wm until I'll switch to Android...
khaytsus said:
I won't be looking for a phone until towards the end of the year, I'll be taking a serious look at Android and WebOS at that time I believe.
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From what I've read WebOS is going bye bye. Palm will be switching to Android. Shame. I never used it but from what I've read it had great potential.
I am indifferent to WP7 till i use it myself. I am not upgrading anytime soon and am waiting for a the next step up from the Rhodium(in all aspects) be it an Android or a WP7.
WP7 will take time to work out the kinks. It might not cater to everyones needs at first but I have faith that it will one day be something only Fanatics and Apple Fanboys will hate. <GARTH>"We fear change!"</GARTH>
@ owziee
++1
Hope that, all of you guys, have signed the petition...
Of course it won't change Microsoft'sMind.
But "Who doesn't do, doesn't get"
It starts there....
dicast said:
The best petition is not buying wp7. Believe me..they will get that message real quick. It's not the end of the world. MS forgot that there'r other platform out there (Android).
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Click to collapse
What do you imagine MS will do if no one buys WP7S? WP7S is the last roll of the dice. If it fails, MS will get out of the mobile device market completely.
Except that it will hardly happen, general public couldn't care less about jails and even breaking them.
I guaranty there will be loads of people who will buy it because they want xbox live and zune on their phones and I reckon I'll join them as I'm getting fed up of phones that suddenly start becoming stuttery randomly, or has bugs that I have to end up waiting for an operator to release their branded version of a to ROM fix because I don't want to void my warranty and basically I don't get the time to endlessly flash new ROMS these days.
But I'll still be hanging onto my WM6.5 HD2
Hey there, thanks for reading.
I decided that I want to learn how to program apps and possibly games for WP7.
Because my holidays are almost starting, now's the time for me to do so.
I already have Visual Studio for Windows Phone up and running, and I encountered the getting started pages on the official silverlight website.
However, it kinda feels like being thrown into the deep and having to do everything in one big leap, instead of being able to start with basics and then move on in smaller steps.
Does any of you have advice for me on what would be good ways to get started? Any advice is appreciated.
I do have vast experience with PHP, but I believe that the syntax is completely different from SL.
Thanks in advance!
My advice would be to learn the basics of c# first. Any previous online tutorials for c# apply to windows phone 7. There are some minor differences but the basics are the same.
Check out http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/windowsphone7series/threads which is the official forums for Windows Phone 7 and there's a lot of good info there.
The code samples at http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ff431744(VS.92).aspx are also worth playing around with.
Ideally you want to know C# for a starters. There's plenty of tutorials on MSDN or the web, but I can also recommend buying the book: Pro C# 2010 and the .NET Platform from Apress.
It's learns you the language, and also goes over XAML related technologies, and even though it's mostly WPF (Windows Presentation Foundation) the core principles apply for Silverlight as well.
After you learned C#, it's time to learn Sivlerlight in dept, and by this I mean XAML, and the limitations in the .NET subset used for Silverlight.
For tools you wish to get Visual Studio 2010 Express, and Expression Blend 4. You can get the Release Candidate free for now, to try out development.
Make a note of that your computer need to support hardware-visualization to run the emulator without a incredible amount of lag!
If you're used to programming you might quickly learn Visual Studio, but Expression Blend requires a good amount of time to get used to. I'll recommend setting off a weekend where you use 2x8 hours to learn it.
You'll be using both Visual Studio and Expression Blend at the same time, C# for application-logic (ie. C# code) and Blend for design.
Designing in Blend is really simple, see for example expressionblend.png.
One of the articles I want to recommend you to read once you got into this entire XAML thing, is this article explaining how to do paging, as it's one of the core concepts, but also provides a good exercise in using Expression Blend.
Also, to get a handle of the basics, Microsoft has put together a site to encourage people to get involved with WP7 and Silverlight. The website is: http://www.microsoft.com/design/toolbox/
Its a real beginners course to all the programming one will be involved in on the WP7 platform. This won't get you very far in programming, but will teach you the absolute basics. From there you can always get assistance from the great members of XDA (me excluded)
Pretty cool site. Now we just need them to release a free-WP7 version of Expression Blend.
The current process to get started is way to messy, but I guess they already know that
Allright, thanks for these replies
My holidays are (unofficialy) starting in three days, so I'll have plenty of time available.
Luckily my rig runs the emulator buttersmooth (I ran the unlocked WP7 rom with it, to try the OS in it's current state) so that won't be an issue.
These links should get me going in the right direction (H)
Another must-have link is the unofficial Pivot and Panorama controls: http://phone.codeplex.com/
im ready for this!!!
Wow this looks like an interesting journey. Holidays? If you are a student, you can get a waiver on the $99 startup fee to post 5 applications on the windows marketplace. Check out www.dreamspark.com for more student resources.
Thanks for the information provided! I was stepping into WP7 app programming too.
Yea, thanks for telling me but I already knew about dreamspark
I've checked and I can enter by signing up with the e-mail my school provided.
However, since it's valid just one year im not using the key untill I actually own a WP7-device.
enadiz said:
Wow this looks like an interesting journey. Holidays? If you are a student, you can get a waiver on the $99 startup fee to post 5 applications on the windows marketplace. Check out www.dreamspark.com for more student resources.
Thanks for the information provided! I was stepping into WP7 app programming too.
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Sounds quite awesome. I only had MSDNAA access so far, but I believe I should have Dreamspark access when I start on my bachelor of engineering, after the summer holidays.
Btw. I made a compilation of tools and blogs that'll help developers getting started, http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=711629
Windcape said:
Sounds quite awesome. I only had MSDNAA access so far, but I believe I should have Dreamspark access when I start on my bachelor of engineering, after the summer holidays.
Btw. I made a compilation of tools and blogs that'll help developers getting started, http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=711629
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Yumm. I'll get down to learning.
The key needs to be renewed every year .. as long as you have your student email, you'll be fine
My first post on xda-developers... +_+!
Yes, as you were told C sharp learning is important so try hard to learn it then go on learning VS 2010 express and expression blend 4. I am new to WP7 dev too and like you ... am dreaming of building a good application indeed - Games are so tough and complex to build and needs teamwork I think-. I just strated leaning C# and have found a lot of good websites trough google search (Windcape compiled most of them in a useful thread you may bookmark)
However, there are a lot of ressources and books about C# and WP7 programming there in torrents world. you can search them by yourself.
Here is a small cd from lynda.com I just uploaded to demonoid.me.
Lynda Windows Phone 7 App Development
I can post links but you can search demonoid website for it.
If anyone needs invitation to demonoid he may PM me here
Also, for a good intorduction to WP7DT just search google for this series : Windows Phone 7 Jump Start
NB: I wish if we can found or make a small teams of biginners wm7 programmers;
hexham said:
NB: I wish if we can found or make a small teams of biginners wm7 programmers;
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I'm currently studying Computer Science and i am very interested in developing to WP7. I don't have vast knowledge of C# but in other languages i'm good. Let me know if there is an opening for me . Besti wishes...
Do think about the Trial Version - my version was to short - so people were complaining about it...
I haven't read through the replies yet so apologies if I'm repeating anything, but I've been a .Net Developer for around five years now so I feel like this is something that I can actually comment on.
I didn't train in anything to do with computers I just fell into this programming lark, I actually trained as an Actor believe it or not. Through needing to design a database in order to record my Acting Accounts I eventually got into V.B.A. and after ending up with a part time job using V.B.A. was finally forced to learn .Net through requirement changes at work.
I only mention this, so as you know that I wasn't born to this sort of thing and had to struggle to get my head round it.
I started with vb.net as that was almost the same as using v.b.a. but last year decided to teach myself C#. I've not used PHP so can't comment on any similarities or otherwise but I do know this.
C# was a huge shock to my system, absolutely huge. I almost gave up after a week of trying to translate my existing code, but managed to persevere and I'd say that after about two months of forcing myself to do C# only, I felt comfortable with it. A year later and I'm completely fluent and happy with C#.
It's a bugger to look at, I don't find it elegant at all, but once you get your head round the syntax then it all starts to make sense.
Get a good C# book, I'm not sure of any good ones, I've not used any, and go with the lessons in there, but don't let that stop you trying to develop your own experimental stuff in the meantime.
Syntax basics
Curly Brackets {} tend to indicate a routine block
E.g. A Function/Method/Void called Test would look like this
public void Test()
{
... Your code goes here
}
This is also the case with an If statement
E.g.
if(A==B)
{
... Your code goes here
}
Scoping/Dimming/Creating an object requires the Object type first followed by it's name
E.g. TextBox _textbox
The object being created is a TextBox and it's name is _textbox
A semi colon ; indicates the end of a block of code. If you have a particularly long line of code then you can use multiple lines but will
only need to insert the ; at the end of that particularly block of code
E.g. A=1; (This is the standard way of doing this)
A=
1; (This is not the way that I would actually do this but is just an example of what is permissable.)
I always found it useful to find C# code on the web and try to read and understand it.
The most important thing is though, don't give up. Visual Studio is widely considered one of the best coding tools in the industry and C# itself, once you get past the first impressions is a really easy language to pick up.
Thanks for the detailed explanation - the use of accolades ('{}'), multiple lines and the semicolon and the syntaxt for statements looks pretty similar to PHP.
That might just be enough motivation for me to finally get started.
yes, even though I asked about advice over halve a year ago, I never got quite to it... Maybe these similarities plus the fact that I have a Microsoft Dreamspark developer account plus the fact that in March I might have a device will be of help. If that's not enough motivation, I don't know what will be :#
Go for it!
You can always ask questions here or on somewhere like StackOverflow.com if you get stuck.
Object Orientation takes some getting used to, but atleast the garbage collector should look after your memory for you
Dave
Interesting, I hope you will get something.
Just adding my two cents here...
I thoroughly recommend that anyone getting into WP7 programming takes a very good look at the MVVM pattern (see here - it's WPF based but the difference is really only in the objects available, most silverlight code can be directly ported to WPF and vice versa). Using this pattern not only enables you to easily swp the UI for your app, it also makes debugging a whole lot easier due to the lack of UI code in the classes that actually do the work (the view models).
Another thing to try and get your head around is asynchronous programming with services, but that is not really something you want to start out with Sorry, forgot we were dealing with silverlight for a minute this is something you're going to have to learn right from the start, along with using background threads for processing data.
For anyone that needs any specific advice feel free to PM me. I'm new to the WP7 thing, but looking at the classes available which aren't available in silverlight it shouldn't be too hard to get into. And the design patterns will be the same.
Can some some one point me to the right way and what do I need to know in term of computer language.?
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Check out http://create.msdn.com - it has everything you'll need to get started.
As for knowledge, it really depends on the app you're wanting to develop. If you can get away with using data already available on the net, with little to no processing needed, you can really build the UI in Blend without any programming experience what so ever. Sure, you'll need to wire up some events for buttons and what not, but even this is almost automatic.
If you do need to process the data before using it you should have at least a minimum knowledge of programming though. It really doesn't matter what language, but C# is what's used for WP7 (you can also use VB, but I don't think many do).
Just to point out that C# is almost identical to Java.
You can download WP7 SDK and free Visual Studio editions from Microsoft to start making WP7 apps. Normal apps are written using .NET (you can pick C#, VB.NET or Managed C++) as SilverLight app. Games are also written in .NET but on XNA framework. There maybe additional charges for XNA framework.
The SDK should come with a WP7 emulator software. That's where you spend your time debug and play with your app. In order to load the app to your phone, you will need to pay Microsoft $99/year to open a dev account so that you can pushlish the app to market or setup your phone as a dev phone so that you can load your own apps directly to the phone.
Or you can go jailbreak route and sideload apps that way.
Thanks, m a rookie when it comes to this. i just started to take c++. anyways everyone start with no knowledge right.
brummiesteven said:
Just to point out that C# is almost identical to Java.
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I maybe should have elaborated on this, at least I intended to
Anyways, Java is generally a learners language, you'll find it quite easy to learn as there are lots of tutorials etc on the internet. If you were to ever study computer science you'd also do java
So yeah, Java might be a good thing to start learning then when you get good enough C# will be a breese.
brummiesteven said:
So yeah, Java might be a good thing to start learning then when you get good enough C# will be a breese.
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Not sure I agree, as a complete novice you're better off going directly for C# (if that's the end goal) rather than using java as a stepping stone. It may end up confusing the hell out of you if you've done things in java a certain way only to find that C# does them completely different.
That said, I still think the choice of language is secondary - first and foremost you have to get into the right mindset, i.e. you have to learn programming, not a programming language. Of course, for WP7 development (at least for now) it very much depends on the type of app you're doing as a lot (too much?) can be done without ever touching code.
programming has a lot of similarities once you've done enough (same as learning languages in general), however, the beginning learn curve is HUGE. Understanding things from variables to classes to object orientation... and that's just the starters. I wouldn't worry about what language is better/easier, both java and C# are some of the easiest and most powerful around, but it's wrapping your head around the basics in general that is a real challenge.
i asked what language because i started my c++ programming this semester and i wanted to know if this the right path on making apps for the phones. as a right now im doing allot of read and watching allot of videos before i try of making a app, since i never have made one.
to be honest, focus on uni first. learn the principles of programming which you'll definitely cover in C++. get them down pat. once your semester is up and you ace the course, then move to another platform. early on it's not good to jump between many languages. it stuffs up your understanding pretty quickly. if you focus on 1, get it solid, it makes it easier to move to the next, and following.
eventually they'll just feel like 1 language... but focus on 1 to begin with, and that should be your studies, not a phone app.
@emigrating great post. That site has started my journey on App Development for WP7. For any other absolute n00b such as me, check out this series of short videos. It explains everything as clear as day and seems to go at a reasonable pace for a beginner like me. THere are 64 vid's in total, i'm currently on the 5th and am loving it
Thanks , I'm going to check them out right now.
Audio said:
@emigrating great post. That site has started my journey on App Development for WP7. For any other absolute n00b such as me, check out this series of short videos. It explains everything as clear as day and seems to go at a reasonable pace for a beginner like me. THere are 64 vid's in total, i'm currently on the 5th and am loving it
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Click to collapse
For anyone that can help.
I made I calculator app like many have started with, but I have a problem, it only calculate 2 terms. How can i fix this?. Plus I'm trying to to a tip calculator now, I have don't a simple one in c++ can I use the same code?
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